The General Assembly is the United Nations’ most democratic body – known as the Parliament of the world. As with any institution, it needs to change with the times to stay relevant. In the fifth conversation of the OPGA Fellows Podcast, Aimé Triana speaks with the Ambassadors leading the GA revitalization process. That’s Ambassador Egriselda López (El Salvador)and Ambassador Mitch Fifield (Australia). The conversation is in English, with some Spanish towards the end.
LISTEN to Episode #5 on Soundcloud
Bio of Ambassador Egriselda López and Bio of Ambassador Mitch Fifield
Episode Transcript:
[Ambassador Fifield] General Assembly has existed since 1945. And any institution, any bureaucracy needs to be continually refurbished, continually renovated.
[Ambassador López] We can see the real and concrete benefits for making the GA more effective and transparent.
[Opening] Drum roll. My name is Amr Shamun from the Maldives. My name is Aimé Triana from Cuba. My name is Syuzanna Martirosyan from Armenia. My name is Mmoloki Tsheole from the Republic of Botswana. My name is Nathalie Gasaro, and I’m from Rwanda. My name is Gerard Anapu from Samoa. This is a podcast. This is the podcast of the United Nations OPGA Fellows.
[Aimé] Welcome to the podcast of the UN OPGA Youth Fellows. My name is Aimé. I will be your host today and it is indeed a pleasure to have you today here.
[Ambassador Fifield] Well, g’day, Mitch Fifield, Australia’s Ambassador to the United Nations. And I have just completed co-chairing the General Assembly reform process with my great friend and colleague, Egriselda López, the Ambassador of El Salvador.
But in terms of a bit about myself, I’m a diplomat by choice, not by design. I’m not a career diplomat. I was a politician before. I spent time in parliament. I spent time as a cabinet minister. What I wanted to do was to use the negotiating skills that I’d developed in politics and in parliament for the benefit of my country. And I couldn’t think of anywhere better to do that than in the General Assembly in New York.
[Ambassador López] Well, thank you, Aime. My name is Egriselda López. I’m from El Salvador.
Different from my dear friend and colleague Mitch, I am a diplomat by choice and by design. So I began my career a long time ago. I’ve been at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. I’ve been in South Korea too. And it’s really great to be doing a contribution also for multilateralism, leading with my dear friend, Mitch, leading the process of the revitalization of the GA.
[Aimé] So given your experience in this process, Ambassador Egriselda, what do you think is the importance of the General Assembly within the UN system?
[Ambassador López] Yes, thank you. Well, I guess one of the most amazing things of the GA is the fact that the whole 193 countries are represented in that organ. Different from others that maybe they have a reduced membership.
And the fact that each of them is represented, make them the universal, the most universal, the most representative organ in the whole Organization. But also the fact that regardless of the size, regardless of the territory, regardless of many other factors, each country has one equal vote. And that’s why it’s really important. The fact that here in New York, you have in just one place, all countries. So I guess that not only the fact of representation, but the work that the GA does, all countries try to come up together and shape all the rules and all the principles that guide the international organization. So that’s really crucial. And you know we get together to discuss the common challenges. We have to try also to find a common interest and a way forward. So that’s really important.
And also, it’s not only the issue of delivering statements. That that’s maybe one of the things that most of the people outside the UN know, for instance, the work in the high level week, when all the heads of States and Governments get together in September, the GA is not only that. We’re more than these statements. It’s about these resolutions that they provide these common ground for action. Not only from member states in their territories, but also for the organization as a whole. So I guess that’s what one of the most interesting and amazing things about the GA.
[Ambassador Fifield] Yeah, and as my dear friend Egri said, UN in New York is the only place in the world where every single country is represented. That doesn’t happen in any capital, only here. That’s why the magic can happen. Not every day. Maybe not every month. But sometimes the magic does happen, where we come together as a collective and find solutions to problems.
And one of the reasons for that is that the General Assembly operates a lot like a parliament. You’ve got 193 ambassadors, each with a vote. You need 50 per cent plus one to do things, or to stop things. And the relationship between ambassadors is a lot like that between members of parliament. You have to build different coalitions, issue by issue, resolution by resolution, day by day. So it’s a quasi-parliamentary environment. And you can get things done.
[Ambassador López] That’s why also the GA sometimes is called like the parliament of the world.
[Ambassador Fifield] Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
[Ambassador López] It is like this. The GA is certainly one of the most democratic organs within the UN system.
[Aimé] Building on that, what does GA revitalization mean?
[Ambassador Fifield] Well, the full title is the Ad Hoc Working Group on the Revitalization of the General Assembly, which is just a very fancy way of saying, this is the process of reforming the General Assembly.
If you think about it, the UN was established in 1945. The General Assembly has existed since 1945. And any institution, any bureaucracy needs to be continually refurbished, continually renovated. Because there are things that made sense back in 1945 that don’t make sense today. Times change. So you’ve got to keep improving the organization.
[Ambassador López] Yeah, but the big question is how?
[Ambassador Fifield] Yeah.
[Ambassador López] It’s because it’s, as we mentioned, it’s so big. It touches like many topics that goes for instance, from disarmament to sustainable development, human rights, peacekeeping operations, just to mention a few of them. But here more specifically in the revitalization, the fancy way of saying reform.
[Ambassador Fifield] Exactly. [laughter]
[Ambassador López] We have four different pillars or clusters. And these help us to guide our work. For instance, when you’re talking about the working methods of the GA, it may sound very technical and boring, but if you think about it, the working methods as precisely the way that guide or work, how we do things. So that’s also very key when we want to move forward in different issues.
Another topic, another cluster, is the selection and appointment of the Secretary-General and other executive heads. Can you imagine how important that process is? Precisely because it’s one of the most important high-level officials. And as Mitch said, I mean, times evolve, things change. And over the last decade, it has been these origin call from different Member States, but also from people outside that they want more transparency towards this process. And precisely the magic on that has happened in the revitalization to try to provide these transparency process to elect the SG.
The other cluster is the office of the President of the General Assembly. And this is also very crucial because he’s like the speaker of the parliament. In the sense that he or she is the one who guides the work of the GA. And it’s really important to provide him or her with all the tools for fulfilling the mandates.
And the other cluster the final one is about the role and authority of the GA, it’s basically how effective the Organization is.
So if you’ve seen this four different clusters is how we guide or work in the revitalization and how we also focus our efforts to make the GA more efficient.
[Aimé] So you have mentioned that since 1945, since the creation of UN, the world and the United Nations itself have changed. Ambassador Fifield, could you give us your perspective on how the GA revitalization negotiations have evolved? And how do you see the way forward?
[Ambassador Fifield] Firstly, how co-facilitators are appointed to a process like this is important. It’s of huge value to have a co-facilitator from the Global North, and a co-facilitator from the Global South. Also gender parity in co facilitation, including this process.
It ensures that you have balance. It ensures you have a full range of perspectives, and it ensures that the delegates have confidence in the co-facilitation. And one of the really good things also is when you do these roles, you take off your national hat and you co-facilitate in an independent capacity. But when it comes to the delegations themselves and how they engage in the process, it’s really a simultaneous negotiation between a 193 Member States. Now, fortunately, they often combine as groups in negotiators groups. But it’s a layered process where you have individual Member States who then decide to coalesce with each other, who then reach common positions and then they’re ready to come into the room and start the broader negotiations. And as co-facilitators, we have to provide an environment that is conducive to that. That encourages consensus. That brings people together. And fortunately, the GA revitalization process continues to be a consensus-based process. So that’s been the evolution and the way the process has worked
[Ambassador López] Thank you, Mitch. I agree with you about the crucial role that co-facilitators, that’s the way of saying those people that lead a process, right? We have in order to create this environment, transparency, but also to enable conversation between different delegates.
But if you ask me, what else is needed to move ahead, it’s the fact that we believe that Member States should have more ownership about the process. And I guess that also comes from the fact that there are many things happening in the General Assembly right now. There are many different processes. And I guess that because of that, even small delegations like mine, we have this pressure like, what do we do? We have this at a given time, and you have to try to be at different times in different places. So it’s definitely a challenge. But regardless of that, and the point about the ownership is that what we try in these last years is that Member States be more aware about revitalization process that they engage more because we can see the real and concrete benefits for make the GA more effective and transparent.
[Ambassador Fifield] And in terms of the way forward, the next step is 5C. The Budget Committee of the UN. There will be discussions from November to December. The budget committee has to approve those things that were decided that have a budgetary impact. So Member States, please approve. [Laughter.]
[Ambassador López] I hope that they will be hearing that.
[Ambassador Fifield] They’re tuned in for sure. And then you’ve got practical implementation of those enhancements that were proposed for the Secretary-General selection process, there’s the opportunity to put into practice, our strong encouragement for there to be not just one woman as president of the PGA, but many, many, many women into the future.
[Ambassador López] A woman SG, too.
[Ambassador Fifield] A woman SG, as well. That’s right.
[Ambassador López] Because I guess what Mitch mentioned and I hope that those delegates in charge of the 5th Committee, the Budget Committee of the UN are listening because if we have this ambitious text, but without the resources, everything is wishful thinking.
[Aimé] Yeah.
[Ambassador López] And we don’t want that. We have to walk the talk.
[Aime] Implementation is always the key word on all the resolutions.
[Ambassador Fifield] That’s right.
[Aimé] A resolution on the revitalization of the General Assembly was agreed at the midnight of Friday, 23rd of June.
[Ambassador Fifield] That’s right.
[Aimé] So what were the main challenges faced by Member States in this process?
[Ambassador López] We actually adopt on Saturday, at midnight. That it was the International Day of Women in Diplomacy. So a good way to commemorate that. But I guess that Mitch mentioned about consensus. I mean, this resolution is traditionally adopted by consensus, meaning like these agreement. We always said during the process, we want you to be equally happy and unhappy. I mean, not everybody was going to get everything what they wanted. And that requires a lot of flexibility from different sides. As we always said during the process, meet us halfway, meet the other halfway, maybe you’re coming from, you have different instructions. So just try to see what you can do.
So that was one layer of negotiation. But then you also have to negotiate sometimes with your own capital. So that also makes it very complex sometimes. It’s even more difficult to negotiate with your own capital.
[Aimé] You always have to negotiate twice.
[Ambassador López] Yes, and here you have to negotiate three times because of all these two layers and then you have plus to come into the room.
[Ambassador Fifield] But I think one of the biggest challenges to the process was the bad coffee in the UN building. Seriously.
[Ambassador López] He’s always complaining of all that. I hope that people from the Secretariat are also listening to them.
[Ambassador Fifield] That’s right. But just in terms of the tools that we could use to overcome disagreements and the resources that we had to draw upon to support the process, I’ve got to say that the support from the Secretariat for our process, from Movses and Ruth was outstanding to be able to draw upon the institutional knowledge and the precedence for things that have been done before and haven’t been done before.
But in terms of specific tools, getting smaller groups together to discuss. We might have had two camps on a particular issue, and as co-facilitators, stopping the meeting, saying go outside, talk. That works wonders when people know they have to talk, and they think we can’t go back into the room and face the co-facilitators without having completed our homework, as Egri put it. She would assign homework and a time by which it had to be back. So that was very effective.
[Ambassador López] They had to present the homework, too.
[Ambassador Fifield] That’s right, that’s right. To the whole group.
[Aimé] So you give time. You have to finish this in 30 minutes. It’s like the same the next day or something. But it was also, as I mentioned, the ownership.
[Ambassador Fifield] That’s right.
[Ambassador López] Okay. And they took it very seriously. So it was like, okay, homework time.
[Ambassador Fifield] And that’s the thing about the ownership is co-facilitators can’t do a negotiation. It can only be done between Member States. And so having Members States accept that responsibility, recognize that responsibility, so encouraging ongoing conversations through the process was critical. There was something else that we tried to agree, wasn’t there. In terms of positive encouragement and reinforcement.
[Ambassador López] You have to mention the koalas.
[Ambassador Fifield] That’s right.
[Aimé] So I heard about that. It’s quite famous.
[Ambassador López] It’s popular now.
[Ambassador Fifield] That’s right. So I brought in a bag, a large number of small koalas that you could put on your lapel because their paws came apart.
[Ambassador López] They’re the cutest.
[Ambassador Fifield] And so any delegation that demonstrated flexibility would be awarded a koala as positive reinforcement. But it also served a more important purpose. And that was to help create a lighter tone in the meeting to help create a positive environment. Because when you’ve just received a koala, it’s very difficult to be terse when you press your microphone button. So you’ve got to use different things to help create just a good environment because in a good environment where people are feeling positive and happy, you’re much more likely to get good outcomes.
[Ambassador López] Yes, definitely.
[Aimé] I will try to be flexible here too. To have my own koala.
[Ambassador Fifield] I’ll make sure one is sent to you.
[Aimé] How do you envision an empowered, transparent and effective Assembly?
[Ambassador Fifield] Well, the first thing, for it to be a more “empowered and more transparent and a more effective Assembly” is as you put it is more gender balance. More gender balance across the board, but making sure that we have gender balance when you appoint the co-facilitators, co-chairs you know, the people who run the different processes. That’s really important. Also, encouraging the nomination of more women as candidates for President of the General Assembly. The time has come. I mean, we’ve had four. Good, but not good enough. So we have to collectively do better there.
And also, we need resolutions that are much more action oriented, that when a resolution is drafted, the pen holders have in mind, those who are negotiating have in mind, what’s the purpose here? What’s the outcome going to be? What is going to change? And how can we put that into effect? And also the work that we do, it needs to be much more accessible, much more understandable by the communities that Member States are representing because back in our respective homes, there’s not a high level of understanding of the work that the General Assembly does.
So there’s an onus on us to better explain that, but also to use ordinary language in our work, not to use this bureaucratic sludge, which does not help the understanding of anyone. So we’ve got to keep in mind the language that we use.
I guess the final thing is making sure that when we take decisions as Member States, that the institutional apparatus of the UN – the Secretariat – provide us with good information so that we make well-informed decisions. With that in mind, the consequences and the environment in which we’re taking the decisions. And there are some positive things that we proposed in that regard as part of this process.
[Ambassador López] I guess that also language, it’s crucial, also as Mitch mentioned to for people to understand what we do. Sometimes maybe Member States, we are so used to find the most complex ways to say something that could be easily conveyed in another word. But I guess it’s also because of we’re so used to saying and doing things in a given way. So I guess that we have to understand these are for the people that are outside the UN. So when you ask, how do you envision an empowered and transparent but also affective Assembly, so that each of Member States seriously think about what will be the benefit, the concrete benefit of each resolution that is put forward.
And another issue, I mean, I really love what you say about, for instance, more gender balance in appointment and leadership, women leadership within the GA. But I’m wondering how we can achieve that when we’re talking about the rules of procedures of the GA do not even consider or reflect the work of women in diplomacy? Maybe I may sound a little bit technical, but the fact that those rules of procedures – meaning like the way of how the GA works – just reflect the person of the General Assembly as a “he” or the Secretary-General as a “he” or “chairman” and not a chairperson, it really basically does not give visibility about the work that women do. And that’s why I really appreciate that you are always taking the lead about making this point and how important it is if we want to have a more transparent and effective assembly, we need to be reflected there. We need to be visible. And I mean, we, women also with the help of our male colleagues.
Something else, making the GA more universal and accessible. That’s also really crucial. We gave a lot of emphasis about accessibility of the UN, the work, and also the premises. I guess that we have to do a lot more effort on the accessibility for persons with disability. And I’m talking about delegates with accessibility, also UN staff, but also the people that are coming from outside and visit the UN.
[Ambassador Fifield] You’re right. I mean, the UN should be a model for accessibility for persons with disability.
And I think the other thing is making sure that we have more substantive and interactive dialogues. I mean, interactive is just a fancy way of saying having people talk to each other. [Laughter.] They’re not having a one-way conversation of not having people just reading out statements without any life, passion, feeling, or thought. So making sure that we have more of those dialogues as part of the working methods of the General Assembly. I think we’re all heartily sick of statements being read out. We need more conversations in real time between delegations.
[Ambassador López] And we need to listen to each other more.
[Ambassador Fifield] Yeah.
[Ambassador López] And something going back to, for instance, the high-level week in September. I guess that something that we were able to achieve is precisely for Member States to be more aware of the different activities that are happening during that time. And you know besides the formal meetings, besides at the time where head of states and government come and deliver the statement from the rostrum, there are a multiplicity of side events. Very interesting. Really interesting. But the problem is that how do you do to cover everything? So in this revitalization resolution, we establish a commitment, a commitment for Member States to try to limit themselves when they are going to organize these kind of activities.
And the PGA will have a crucial role in implementing this. It will require to make this mechanism or commitment known to all Member States and encourage them to join. Precisely because it will help us to make and have a more effective general debate in September.
But there are great practices that the current and previous PGAs have adopted, for instance, the advisory board on gender equality.
[Ambassador Fifield] Yeah, yeah.
[Ambassador López] And during the high-level week, they have convened the platform of women leaders. So I guess this kind of issues that are also recognized in the resolution. They should continue, and it will be really important for the next PGA to have those in mind.
And something that current President Csaba Kőrösi has been doing is promoting these science-based approaches when having this kind of discussions.
And that also comes from the fact that, as I mentioned in the General Assembly, you touch many issues. And sometimes for making those decisions, you need information. And science is crucial. We saw that, for instance, with the UN Water Conference this year, how important was to have academia and different stakeholders on water to come. And also to give their inputs. So to have those science approaches, approaches were needed and possible, it’s great.
[Aimé] Well, now as we come closer to the end of our discussion, I would like to ask you something that will be useful not only for me, but also for the future generations. How can young people be involved in GA revitalization?
[Ambassador López] I guess that first students have to understand better what revitalization means. I mean, what the reform means. A lot of attention has been given, for instance, to the reform of the Security Council. A lot of think tanks, universities have written extensively about that issue. But not much more about the GA. And that’s ironic because it’s the most universal body of the whole organization. So I guess we will have to start from there that universities can understand better, that students can also understand and learn more about revitalization and that will be I will say the first step. To have more engagement from young. And something great, it will be that the next or the current PGA could have more engagement with young people related about revitalization or about the Assembly. How do you see the Assembly? How do you want the Assembly to be? How do you think the current General Assembly is reflecting your interest and how is it responding to what’s going on outside in the world?
[Ambassador Fifield] And I think armed with that better understanding of how the UN operates and the reform process of the General Assembly. Young people can then undertake advocacy in their capitals – they don’t have to come to New York. They can undertake advocacy in their capitals about what they think should happen. But they could also use the wonders of modern technology and advocate with the country’s missions here in New York.
It’s something that young people do in Australia. They will lobby government. They’ll talk to members of parliament. They’ll put their views forward. But they’ll also email me from Australia with their views, with their thoughts. They will engage with me in video conferences, so there are the tools there. There are other mechanisms there. And young people shouldn’t be shy.
Sadly, young people too often are told, look, you don’t have enough experience to put your view forward. Wait till you’ve got more experience and put your views forward. But oddly, no one will ever say you’re just at the perfect age now with just the right amount of experience to put your views forward. So my message to young people is, if you’ve got something to say, don’t let someone tell you, you don’t have enough experience to do so. If you feel you’ve got something to say, say it.
[Aimé] That’s true. And now both in English and in Spanish, how can young people benefit from GA revitalization? ¿Cómo los jóvenes pueden beneficiarse de una Asamblea General revitalizada?
[Ambassador López] I guess that you’re going to answer in Spanish, right?
[Ambassador Fifield] Si.[Laughter.] Gracias.
[Aimé] That was your answer. [Laughter.] Over to you, Ambassadora.
[Ambassador López] No, gracias. La verdad, que lindo poder responder en el idioma de uno. Yo quiero comentarte que hace dos semanas aproximadamente, estuve participando en la inauguración del Modelo ONU en la Universidad de El Salvador, que es mi universidad; y uno de mis mensajes, precisamente a los jóvenes, era lo que acabamos de estar discutiendo: conozcan sobre el proceso de revitalización de la Asamblea General, estudien al respecto. Y a los jóvenes que nos están escuchando: ustedes tienen tantas herramientas actualmente, que cuando yo era estudiante no las tenía. Por ejemplo, el canal de ONU, UN Web TV. Ustedes pueden ver en tiempo real todas las diferentes discusiones, la mayoría pues, son abiertas, pueden consultase en cualquier momento; tienen la librería electrónica también de la organización. Y eso para que, quienes nos están escuchando y tengan curiosidad después, de saber a que se refiere revitalización, puedan buscar en las diferentes plataformas. También creo de que primero es necesario conocer qué es, para luego entender cómo podríamos ser beneficiados, ¿no?
Y para responder a tu pregunta, la Asamblea General que sea efectiva, transparente, eficiente; nos beneficia a todos. Nos beneficia a todos, a Estados pequeños, a Estados grandes, sin importar el PIB. O sea, creo que lo que todos los Estados queremos, precisamente, es tener una plataforma que sea inclusiva, que sea transparente, que nos permita venir, hablar y acordar acciones concretas. Y, ¿sabes? no solamente para los jóvenes, estamos hablando para las mujeres, para los migrantes, para los refugiados, para las personas con discapacidad, para los adultos mayores, para los pueblos indígenas, podría mencionarlos a todos.
Pero en realidad, creo que, y les insto a los que nos están escuchando, a que aprendan más de este proceso que sigue, es un proceso continuo, no creo que vaya a tener fin nunca, porque es parte de la misma naturaleza de la Organización de buscar mejorar. Entonces, esta Asamblea que sea fortalecida, inclusiva, va a ser de beneficio para todos los pueblos. Porque al final, recordemos lo que dice la Carta de ONU, “Nosotros los pueblos”. Así que este proceso es también para todos los pueblos.
[Aimé] Usted lo mencionaba y yo también soy el resultado de un Modelo de Naciones Unidas que nosotros teníamos en mi propia universidad .[Laughter.] Y que además tuve la oportunidad de un poco, de adentrarme en el mundo de Naciones Unidas, de los procesos, de todo.
[Ambassador López] ¿Ves? Sí.
[Aimé] Así que si, si, si, las personas jóvenes pueden beneficiarse.
[Ambassador López] Así es.
So now, we return to you.
[Ambassador Fifield] Well I agree with everything that Egri said. [Laughter.]
But a more effective General Assembly would be one that is better understood by young people, and people in general. One in which young people and broader societies have greater confidence. And a more effective GA would see human rights more strongly defended. Would see development occur faster. And would see greater peace and security. So an effective GA would reinforce each of those pillars of the UN’s work. And that’s why the task that we embarked upon, as co-facilitators of the GA reform process, was so important. And can I commend Egri for her work. She hasn’t just done it for these two years. She co-led the process before that. So a lot of the reason for the success that we have is due to her tremendous efforts and skill as a co-facilitator.
[Ambassador López] Thank you. No, thank you. Mitch, and also to our teams. They did an amazing job.
[Ambassador Fifield] Hear, hear.
[Ambassador López] But you didn’t mention this is basically your last day as ambassador of Australia. I’m very glad that we were able to finish on time.
[Ambassador Fifield] That’s right. So this podcast is my last official act as Australia’s Ambassador to the UN.
[Aimé] I wish you all the best in your future in your future job and your future occupation. And I guess if you have done it so well, hear at the UN, you can do it better now.
[Ambassador Fifield] Well, you know, as they say, if you can make it at the UN, the UN in New York, you can make it anywhere. But thank you so much.
[Aimé] Gracias a Uds. My interview couldn’t be better. You made it so easy for me. Thank you so much.
[Ambassador Fifield] Great. Great to be with you.
[Ambassador López] And thank you to our listeners too.
[Closing] This is the podcast of the United Nations OPGA Fellows. Thanks for listening.
