Time to hydrate. We’ve reached the water episode. In the fourth conversation of the OPGA Fellows Podcast, Mmoloki Tsheole speaks with Chief Scientific Advisor Johannes Cullmann and Sneha Dubey about why they’re interested in water issues. And how water – aside from it being a tasty beverage – is key to us saving the world. Our guests also update on the UN 2023 Water Conference, known formally as the 2023 Conference for the Midterm Comprehensive Review of Implementation of the UN Decade for Action on Water and Sanitation (2018-2028). So grab that water bottle and hit “play”.

LISTEN to Episode #4 on Soundcloud 

 

 

Episode Transcript:

[Ms. Dubey] It has been about two months since we’ve had the conference and there is a lot of enthusiasm, a lot of interest, and also a lot of momentum towards doing something.

[Dr. Cullmann] And only if more people are aware and act accordingly, we will really be able to provide a water secure future, for your generation in the end.

[Opening] Drum roll. My name is Amr Shamun from the Maldives. My name is Aime Triana from Cuba. My name is Syuzanna Martirosyan from Armenia. My name is Mmoloki Tsheole from the Republic of Botswana. My name is Nathalie Gasaro, and I’m from Rwanda. My name is Gerard Anapu from Samoa. This is a podcast. This is the podcast of the United Nations OPGA Fellows.

[Mmoloki] Hello. Welcome to another exciting episode of the PGA fellows podcast. My name is Mmoloki Tsheole from the Republic of Botswana. I’m very excited to be here today and with my former colleagues in the science team, and at this point I would give them this opportunity to introduce themselves.

[Ms. Dubey] Hi I’m Mmoloki. Hello everyone and so excited to be here. I’m Sneha Dubey. I’m an adviser to the President of the General Assembly on sustainable development, and together with Johannes Cullmann. I have worked on the UN Water Conference and will continue to take this agenda forward.

[Dr. Cullmann] Yeah, thanks Mmoloki. My name is Johannes, and I am the Chief Scientist of the PGA, so I work on an area of different things that are related to bringing science to the UN General Assembly. Sneha, we should probably also let our listeners know why we are both so intrigued to work on the water files. So what do you think? Why is water so important for anything on this planet?

[Ms. Dubey] How can water not be important for anything in this planet? Let’s look at the SDGs, right? We’re talking about SDG 6, but let’s not compartmentalize it and talk about interlinkages of water and how one, let’s say, SDG 6, links to any other SDG 6. Poverty can it help, can water help? Yes, it can. Zero hunger. Can water help? Yes, it can. Good health, sanitation, all of it. What is an essential component? Water. Whether we’re talking about energy, whether we’re talking about economic growth, whether we’re talking about industry, innovation, inequalities. I think water has such an important and huge part to play. When it comes to the scientific angle of it, of course, that’s something I’m going to turn the question around to you. Why do you think water is so important? Why are we here spending so much of our time, our energy? And of course, that of the member states. Deliberating on water.

[Dr. Cullmann] Yeah. That’s a nice idea to ask me about the scientific framing of that. And I can say that we have some basic cycles in our earth or in our earth system. One is the carbon cycle that’s when we talk about climate change, but then there’s also the water cycle. So that’s all the water that flows on the earth, that is in the ground, that goes into the clouds, that rains again. And this water cycle connects us also. Water is really one of the connectors of all human activities on the planet and no country alone can really master a changing water situation or water cycle on this planet, and we have changed the water cycle for thousands of years in Europe. We have drained soils. We have built canals. We have deforested our areas. We need, of course, agricultural area, but we are changing the water cycle with all the human activity.

And then, on top of that, comes the climate change where we have altered atmospheric composition that again impacts on how much it rains or how much snow there is somewhere. And that is really, in the end, one of the underlying basic commodities that is globally connected and that really addresses the life of everybody. You cannot say, I am in Australia, I’m not part of it. Australia is dependent on what India does or China does or South America does, in terms of impacting water cycle. So it’s really a global connector and that’s why water is so important. It hasn’t been important because or it has been less important in political decision making in the past because water was seen as “we have enough money, we fix it”, somehow engineering problem. But that was short-sighted. Now in the U.S., in Europe, we have these water issues that we resolved in the past with just investing a little bit more into infrastructure. But at one point, the cost is too high and so even those who had thought “we are living in an untouchable world in the water problems are the problems of poor people in the southern hemisphere”, even these people are now starting to feel it.

[Ms. Dubey] No I agree. So water sustains life and water sustains development and well that’s reason enough for water to matter.

[Dr. Cullmann] Pretty good reason yeah and it’s also a very tasty drink.

[Mmoloki] Thank you thank you so much. In the past few days here in New York, There has been some alarms raised on the air quality. So is there any connection that could be established between the air quality and just the process around water. Is there a connection there?

[Dr. Cullmann] There is certainly an ongoing trend at the moment where through climate change we have longer periods of dry forests for example, and then, forest fires of course become more likely and they become more devastating when they happen. So yes, dry forests generate and catalyze these situations. And if we had had an untouched world that was not affected by climate change, this situation would have been very highly unlikely. So yes there is a positive feedback between changed environment through climate change and events like the forest fire. Now you cannot relate it directly, linearly, to climate change, this situation. It could also happen without climate change, but climate change makes these events more likely. We just had a couple of years the first tropical storm in Ireland, in Europe, where that had never been seen before. So it’s not only a forest fire that blows down smoke into New York, it’s also events that happen now, in parts of the world where we hadn’t seen these events before. And you can also argue around the tropical storms that are hitting US East coast more and more and more northerly than in the past. So this is all a consequence of a changing environment.

[Mmoloki] Oh. Fascinating indeed. Thank you so much Dr Cullmann for that insightful information. For the second question, I would like to direct it to you, Ms Sneha. The United Nations Water Conference was co-hosted by the Netherlands and Tajikistan. What are your impressions with the Conference and why was it considered a historic?

[Ms. Dubey] Yes Mmoloki, it was indeed a very, very interesting conference that we had. This was between 22nd of March to the 24th of March this year and of course the build-up of it goes way, way beyond that. It was, I think, a Conference that built a narrative, a new narrative on re-evaluation of water, a new narrative on how water could be such a huge part of sustainable development. And I think it gave a platform, not just to member states, but also to stakeholders, to civil society, the private sector, the finance, all of them to come together and agree that, yes, indeed, it is important to have water at the forefront. Why it was historic? Well, not just for all of these reasons and also that it was almost after 5 decades that such a Conference was being held. But it was also the largest ever gathering at the UN to deliberate on water.

[Mmoloki] Interesting indeed. A whole of society approach and tackling water issues is something that should be really taken in high regard in the United Nations. Moving on, Dr. Cullmann, what would you say were some of the key takeaways from the Water Conference?

[Dr. Cullmann] For me, the importance of this conference that was initialized as a review conference of an action decade, really, that people have evaluated where we are in terms of SDG 6, the linkages to other fields because you can, again, not just address water only in the water space. Water is so important for food production, for energy, for transport, for religion, culture, trade. So this is really the evaluation point. The four key results of this conference, I think, are, a large engagement with a large community that’s also private sector, civil society. There was a whole New York Water Week around the Conference. So it’s about making the linkages, because no sector or no government alone or no bank alone will be able to resolve sustainability in the water space. Because it’s so connected to so many different externalities, we call it the different impacts of water on other sectors. So that’s number one, the engagement, the community.

Number two, I think, is a political awareness that we need in New York. A more focused discussion around member states on what the UN really wants as a water strategy that relates to climate and other adjacent fields. So the political focus on water and the elevation of that political awareness and agenda.

And then there are two very concrete outcomes; one is the Water Action Agenda. That’s a commitment of voluntary commitment of actors. It’s not only governments, it’s also civil society players or business, enterprises on what they can do better. And then lastly and very importantly, we know that we cannot just upscale solutions. We really need transformation in the water sector for sustainability. If we invest more, under our current schemes and with our current mechanisms, we will resolve some issues. But all in all, we will not achieve sustainability in the mid-to-long term because our systems are not geared towards long-term sustainability yet. And the Member States have defined in this conference, key game changers that need to be implemented to achieve this transition. And amongst those are game changers on information because you need better information to find cooperative or solidary solutions. Here, I could mention a global water information system, that the Secretary-General has also called for being implemented by 2030. It’s about early warnings. It’s about a new understanding of water economy, what is the impact of water in economy on people? And then it goes on into the capacity that everybody needs in different parts around the world to actually implement water for people in a sustainable way.

[Mmoloki] Thank you so much. I mean, at this point, with the world faced with multiple crisis, it’s really inspiring to see member states and stakeholders really come together and find solutions to one of the most precious elements of our ecosystem, and water resources. What are the concrete or practical steps envisaged following the Water Conference?

[Ms. Dubey] Well Mmoloki, any concrete step, any way forward will have to be guided by the Member States of the UN General Assembly. So that’s where it is at the moment. It has been about two months since we’ve had the conference and there is a lot of enthusiasm, a lot of interest, and also a lot of momentum towards doing something that would feed into the High-Level Political Forum and into the SDGs summit that we have in September.

[Dr. Cullmann] Sneha has now talked about the member side of things, so the process that the members are at the moment engaged in. And there is also an UN internal process because we have a thing called UN Water to focus on a joint strategy in the UN to deliver better for country level stakeholders. So it has also been a strong expression of member states in this conference to have this UN water mechanism strengthened and focused, so that is at the moment happening. We have a whole review process within the UN organizations, with some recommendations that will be published this month. And then we can discuss that with the Secretary General. And of course, in the end, the prerogative of the Secretary General of the UN to align what needs to be aligned in this in this regard. And in that discussion, there is also an expectation of around 150 Member States that we will soon have a Water Envoy, a person that would really raise the profile of water as an Ambassador for water and sustainability.

The third aspect is really then the commitment and the implementation of the water action agenda. So we definitely need more private sector partners to connect their programs. There are really a lot of good programs out there now, very big companies, but also small businesses are really focusing now on how their operations impact water and then that relates to the education sector. How do we inform young people? How do we inform decision makers or operational people that manage a water resource in a dam control center or so? And I think, we will have a monitoring of this Water Action Agenda now. We will really, it’s a voluntary mechanism, there is now enforcement. But through the looking at the successes together, I think there is a very positive momentum, reinforced motivation for more people to do more in this sector and only if more people are aware and act accordingly, we will really be able to provide a water secure future, for your generation in the end.

[Mmoloki] Absolutely. Thank you so much Johannes. And moving on, just to tap in into your decorated careers, I wanted to ask, what are some of the good practices geared towards addressing the water crisis You have come to observe or experience in your respected careers?

[Ms. Dubey] Well, I come from India, as you know, Mmoloki. And we have a large population, right? It’s what about maybe 16% of the world’s population lives in India. And at the same time, our freshwater resources are 4% or less. So it is a water stressed country. And it is to come out of this challenge or to deal with this challenge that the government brought a lot of Ministries together that we’re working individually on different aspects of water. And so recently, what I have seen during my career, is that we have a new Ministry called Jal Shakti, which roughly translates into water/power Ministry. And that has brought about quite some game changing initiatives which include, of course, water restorations and the water stress districts, but also initiatives that would help bring piped water to the huge rural population of the country by 2024. And that’s a large number, by the way. Also, there are initiatives like the Namami Gange Programme, which is a clean Ganga mission if you translate it into English, which brings about twin objectives; of cleaning the Ganga River, which is considered the lifeline of the country, as well as rejuvenating it. So these are huge projects and one thing that we have really learned through it, is at the end, apart from just the government initiatives, it is the people and it is a community that are required to bring forward any real change. And that’s what I see happening right now.

[Dr. Cullmann] Yeah. When I was doing my PhD, we developed some artificial intelligence solutions to improve databases for forecasting models. And we then applied that to a water management system where different sluices and dams were operating to keep water for a shipping canal in optimum range. It is really about being open to interlink different disciplines. So in my case, it was mathematics with water management or forecasting. Now that sounds very nerdy, I know, but we will not come to a real innovation or to a step change or to a transformation if we dwell in our own disciplines. So diplomats alone can do nothing. Technocrats alone can also do nothing. But if the different disciplines work together, we can actually develop solutions that go beyond what we have known from the past. So if we want transformation, we need to be open to also uncomfortable situations where we are confronted with different contexts. And I think that’s an important message and lesson that I’ve learned.

The second example is, we have worked in the past years really to integrate water and climate policies.  The climate and water are so interlinked so closely dependent on each other that there is also no mitigation of climate change without addressing water management and there is no sustainable water management without knowing how glaciers will melt or how droughts will develop in the next 50 to a hundred years.

Then also maybe, I’ve worked, when I was with the German government, for a very practical capacity building and development project in Eastern Africa. That was a really good experience where I’ve worked a lot in Ethiopia with Ethiopian universities. And as a result, you can see that, and that’s of course not because I was so good, but the result is that, in Ethiopia there are now much better education programs. And in the end, we can talk so much and we can be so smart but if we cannot translate our knowledge into a wider society and that relates a little bit to what Sneha said earlier; it’s really about the people they need to understand that and they need to own it.

[Mmoloki] It’s something that member states or stakeholders cannot do it on their own. It should be a whole of society approach whereby we see that the youth, women and girls, they really play critical role in pushing that agenda. And on that regard, I would like to pose this question to you. What would be the message that you would like to share with the youth on how they can really play a critical role in advancing the Water Action Agenda?

[Ms. Dubey] There is no aspect of the Water Action Agenda or of water and its various aspects that can do without the youth engagement. Youth involvement is necessary. But for me, I would particularly like to point out to WASH services; that is clean drinking water and sanitation. This is something that has to percolate down to society, at the very, very grassroot level. And there, we need the youth. We need their engagement, their involvement, their campaigning. And that’s the message I, at least from my side, would like to give: to stay engaged! To stay focused! And to spread the word.

[Dr. Cullmann] You want me to comment on that? I’m too old to really know what youth can do or should do. It’s nice to have youth saying what they want, but youth have very little power to actually do something. And for example, now in the COP, in the climate negotiations, there’s a very good program where we try help countries having young climate negotiators at the table, like people that are your age, they sat in Egypt for the first time, on the negotiation table, and they will surely be in the next climate negotiations in the UAE, United Arab Emirates. So those are the things that need to be done and there’s a lot of talk, but youth can also do things. So it must not always be disruptive. It can be disruptive. It’s good that youth block things and don’t go to school. I have four kids, so I support this. But youth can also, I don’t know, we are talking about billions of youth, if a fraction of these youth throw in 50 cents ahead, they can build their own dams or they can build their own schools. So be more active. You have such a power. Your consumer power is enormous.

[Mmoloki] Thank you so much Johannes. Thank you Sneha. I’ve been just for the last message to the youth, I think it’s just to be more proactive and to ensure that they really contribute meaningfully to the implementation of the SDGs and all other related aspects of development. So I think it’s very much inspiring. Thank you so much for being with us today and for this insightful episode of the PGA fellow’s podcast.

[All] Thank you. Thank you Mmoloki. Thank you so much. Yeah, thanks Mmoloki. Thanks Sneha.

[Closing] This is the podcast of the United Nations OPGA Fellows. Thanks for listening.