In the third episode of the OPGA Fellows Podcast, Gerard Anapu speaks with Thierry Watrin, the Green Economy and Climate Change Advisor to the Government of Rwanda. He talks about the conscious decision young people in Rwanda made to have a sustainable country, and the importance of valuing the environment – part of the discussions now underway about Beyond GDP. Gerard spoke to Thierry in New York, on the sidelines of a science briefing to General Assembly Member States.

LISTEN to Episode #3 on Soundcloud 

 

 

 

Bio: Thierry Watrin is the Green Economy and Climate Change Advisor to the Minister of State in Charge of Economic Planning, for the Ministry of Finance and Economic Planning of Rwanda. In this capacity, he contributes to the strategic development of a National Green Economy, specifically working on the transition to a decarbonized, sustainable, and socially responsible economy. With more than 10 years of experience across finance and energy, Thierry brings crosscutting perspectives to green economy and skills from high-level public and private sectors. Thierry holds Masters degrees in Central Engineering, Business and in Finance, along with an executive certificate in Renewable Energy Management from the University of St. Gallen Switzerland.

 

 

 

 

Episode Transcript:

Mr. Watrin: The case of Rwanda and the Green GDP is an interesting case because people can relate right intuitively if I talk to you about Green GDP, you think about GDP, taking into account the environment, which is exactly what it does. The formula behind and the science is more complex.

[Opening] Drum roll. My name is Amr Shamun from the Maldives. My name is Aime Triana from Cuba. My name is Syuzanna Martirosyan from Armenia. My name is Mmoloki Tsheole from the Republic of Botswana. My name is Nathalie Gasaro, and I’m from Rwanda. My name is Gerard Anapu from Samoa. This is a podcast. This is the podcast of the United Nations OPGA Fellows.

Mr. Watrin: My name is Thierry Watrin. I work in the Ministry of Finance and Economic planning of Rwanda as a Green Economy Adviser to the Minister of State in charge of economic planning. And basically my job, my day to day job, is to push forward the green economy, not only in Rwanda, but in Africa and the world.

Gerard: Thank you. It’s indeed a pleasure to have you here, Mr. Watrin. Can you maybe tell us what brings you to the United Nations?

Mr. Watrin: There was a session on Beyond GDP. Where delegates and scientific shared their inputs on the different indicators that we can push high on the agenda to go beyond GDP. And indicator that was done in late ’30s where the world was 2.5 billion inhabitants and now we move to a 9 billion inhabitants world and the well-being, I think, the social well-being of the people is starting to come back on the forefront and the sustainability, as well. I think it’s obvious. Everybody understands that we need to go beyond GDP, but nobody knows how to make it..

It will really be a way of intersectionality between the politics and the economical science, and how we define those lists so that they’re clear enough and so that people can relate. And as well, so that they are relevant to our economy, to our well-being, and to measure in all the different aspects, to capture all the different aspects of a society of an economy, the health of a country.

Gerard: Of course, you mentioned Beyond GDP and Green Economy. Maybe if you can just remind us what the Green Economy is.

Mr. Watrin: Yes. Green economy is based on three pillars: decarbonize, sustainable, and socially responsible economy. From there, you have a list of features and components that need to be taken into account. To make sure that your economy first is sustainable and decarbonized. And I was talking about the green GDP. Which is interesting. Given the history, the history of Rwanda with the genocide against the Tutsis and the fact that the country had to start from ground zero, the question of the well-being of the people of the social inclusion of the harmonization with the environment was central and crucial.

Gerard: Do you believe Beyond GDP is the way forward for achieving this United Nations’ notion of leaving no one behind?

Mr. Watrin: Well, I believe it’s crucial. And at the same time, it’s challenging. Otherwise, we would have already done it. The country consultation and integration is key here. The challenge is to give indicators that are relevant and intuitive enough to the people so that it speaks to everybody. The case of Rwanda and the Green GDP is an interesting case because people can relate intuitively if I talk to you about Green GDP, you think about GDP, taking into account the environment, which is exactly what it does. The formula behind and the science is more complex. So it would be the environmental adjusted net domestic product, which is the net domestic product minus the depletion of natural resources, and biodiversity degradation. And that’s why I believe Rwanda, it was important to have Rwanda today talking. It was to share that we have the power today to revise the global economic metric framework as a good measure of health of a country, to requestion the orthodox economic narratives, and to recalibrate our approach with the broader and more flexible system. You can intuitively think about 5 pillars for the Beyond GDP. New metrics, the first one would be distribution. What I call the wealth granularity. The second one is gender equality. Topic which is really important in Rwanda. And taking into account, for example, in the unpaid household work, which is taken care of by women. And we know it creates issues and vulnerability when they go to retirement. Human capital, with education, health, access to health. And last but not least, environmental accounting.

Gerard: I think it’s very important in listening to that. I think it’s also a matter of countries, localizing these international concepts and making it something of their own. So that they have that national ownership. So I think that it’s wonderful that you mentioned those issues and things that you were talking about. I think you’re aware that I am part of the President of the General Assembly Fellowship program, which is a program for young diplomats to immerse themselves in the work of the United Nations. Being a young person, myself, and I’m sure you’re young, as well…

Mr. Watrin: I look young (laughter).

Gerard: In the context of Rwanda, what is something that the Government or the people of Rwanda are doing to involve the youth if they are not already involved in terms of achieving the Green Economy targets and this concept of Beyond GDP?

Mr. Watrin: It’s interesting question as well, especially in Rwanda where the population is youthful.You have 70% of the population, which is under 30 years old. So that’s a huge number, and that’s a very young population, which is active and vibrant, as well. And I’m actually each time surprised, positively surprised by our young people. The entrepreneurship, the energy that you can feel when you go out, the willingness to work, to make things happen, to move forward, to achieve our vision, is in line with our Green Economy. In terms of programs in Rwanda, you have a program name, a long-term vision program named Vision 2050. Which was launched by our president, His excellency Paul Kagame, which settled its targets and deliverables to achieve the run that we want by 2050. Interestingly enough, the Rwanda that we want in 2050 is carbon neutral. So what it means is that everybody is moving into this direction and for the young people very pragmatically what it means is that we want clean air. For example, people there are happy to go out as part of that. You have the e-mobility in Rwanda, which is well developed. You have a lot of electric motors that are pushed forwards. At some point, electric buses will be integrated as well. And are already planned in the strategy. So for the youth, I would say it’s a lifestyle. When you have 70% of your population that’s under 30, it’s their lifestyle to have a decarbonized, clean air, and healthy way of living. They don’t want anymore and they don’t want at all, a carbon based developed country, because it’s not healthy. It’s not sustainable. It’s not the way the youth want to live. And me, as a young man, I’m not that young anymore, but I can still be considered as young. That’s the kind of life I want as well. If you come in Kigali and I encourage you, two Sundays per month, you have the car free day. Which is a moment where people go out and enjoy the city of Kigali without cars. That’s the best. Then you walk, you take, I take my dogs out, I enjoy the clean air, take a coffee, that’s the best. So that’s the lifestyle where we want to live in.

Gerard: Thank you very much, Mr. Watrin. It was a very fruitful discussion with you and on the issues of Beyond GDP. And a Green Economy, thank you very much for taking the time to speak with us.

Mr. Watrin: Thank you.

[Closing] This is the podcast of the United Nations OPGA Fellows. Thanks for listening.