S7-Episode 3: The Light in Their Eyes

 

 

Melissa Fleming 00:00

Can you imagine being arrested more than 40 times simply for helping children? That's what happened to my colleague Najat Maalla M'jid when she started helping homeless children in her country of Morocco. She knows how important it is to make sure traumatized children get help as quickly as possible.

 

Najat Maalla M'jid 00:22

What I learned in my life, it's the eyes. And you know, when you are speaking with children, when you have their eyes, you have light in their eyes, it's still possible. When the light switches off, it’s too late.

 

Melissa Fleming 00:45

Now, as a Special Representative of the UN Secretary-General on Violence against Children, Najat is bringing that same passion to helping children all over the world. From the United Nations, I'm Melissa Fleming, and this is Awake at Night. Najat, was there a moment in your life, in your career, where you just knew you wanted to devote yourself to children?

 

Najat Maalla M'jid 01:20

Yes, one strong moment, you know, when I was eight and I was watching the TV at this time in Casablanca, because I'm from Morocco. And I watched a film documentary on Dr. Albert Schweitzer. And this doctor, this physician, was really working, you know, in Africa in very remote and poor areas. And I was telling to myself, ‘This could be my dream.’ Because the way he was dealing with them is not only providing care. He was sitting with them, and listening to them and hearing them, and making them feeling also important. And this never, never, never left my mind.

 

Melissa Fleming 02:06

So, describe a bit your childhood. What was it like then in Casablanca? What was your environment like growing up?

 

Najat Maalla M'jid 02:14

My environment… You know, I am from a poor family. And my mom is a woman who was illiterate, and she start, you know, having literacy when I become old. And I had a father. He is dead. But he was amazing, telling us what's important is investing in your education and in your independence. It was amazing for me because I never felt myself as discriminated because I was a girl. And this is thanks to my father. So, it was investing in education.

 

Melissa Fleming 02:44

What made your father so different?

 

Najat Maalla M'jid 02:46

Because he was a little bit crazy. And he was travelling a lot. He was against the system. He was always against the system. And I think I have a kind of inheritance of his DNA. He's always fighting, telling that things can change.

 

 

Melissa Fleming 02:59

So, he was a feminist.

 

Najat Maalla M'jid 02:46

Yes, he was. He was a feminist, but also the other thing my father was telling, ‘I have a contract with you. You are going to education but never, never fail.’ So, I put strong pressure on myself to be at the top 10 of, you know, the school. And I was, but I was working like crazy.

 

Melissa Fleming 03:25

You chose to go into medicine and then you chose to become a pediatrician. Why children?

 

Najat Maalla M'jid 03:30

Because children are it's a kind of mystery. You know, it's not easy to treat children because you treat them since the beginning. In the same time, they are not lying. And in the same time, they are… It's a dynamic, they are evolving. I learned a lot from children to be very frank. Their courage when they are facing, you know, the illness. I was, you know, working in places where children are dying, and the same time discouraged and telling you that, ‘I know that I'm going to die tomorrow, but it's okay. It's okay. It's okay.’ And it's amazing to see these strong, courageous children. I learned a lot from them. And I started while I was studying, you know, my general medicine, being you know, volunteer. Working in many places. Places for children that are, you know, in bad situation, or disabled children, you know, who are poor. And I was seeing in my own country children on streets. And it made me have many concerns.

 

Melissa Fleming 04:27

You mentioned that there's something about children that really attracted you. You said they don't lie.

 

Najat Maalla M'jid 04:33

No.

 

 

Melissa Fleming 04:34

And what does that mean for you?

 

Najat Maalla M'jid 04:35

They can lie if they are instrumentalized, or to survive. But what is important, you know, when they have pain, it's really visible. It's really clearly visible, because you have the body language. This is very important. And the same time, it's amazing even when they are suffering, it's amazing this resilience that I saw, I met with them. And what I learned in my life, it's the eyes. And you know, when you are speaking with children, when you have their eyes, you have light in their eyes, it's still possible. When the light switches off, it’s too late. And I saw many children, even in desperate situation, still the eyes, you know, they have this light. It means they are alive. And it is why I became crazy, you know, when I am doing country visits and meeting children, you know, who are refugees, who are in bad places. And you know, no light. I am telling to all, even countries, you know, all the actors, telling that it's too late. We need to act quickly.

 

Melissa Fleming 05:41

So, you became the first female doctor to be appointed Director of the Hay Hassani Mother-Child hospital in Casablanca. I guess that's quite an honour. But you were also working in what had been traditionally quite a male environment. What kind of challenges did you face there?

 

Najat Maalla M'jid 05:59

I think first challenge is I have not a normal profile. I was… I am still, and currently I am older. But before I was more, more, more impulsive. I am very frank, and I am really committed, and I can't accept compromise. And I start changing the whole. And it was not easy because you arrive. I was younger and pushing male and pushing the system and telling, ‘We are accountable to the patient, the mother, the parents, the children.’ When a woman is pregnant, and she's going to deliver, I told them, ‘It's not an illness. They are not to be treated like that.’ And in the same time, training them to discover the indirect sign of violence. It was kind of revolution, not appreciated by all, but we made it.

 

 

Melissa Fleming 06:51

And at the same time that you were working at the hospital, this is when you started noticing the plight of orphan children and the children on the streets. Can you tell me how that came about? And could you really just describe maybe the encounter when you first became aware of children actually just existing on their own on the streets.

 

Najat Maalla M'jid 07:15

When I encountered, you know, the first, it was close to the railway station. And I saw three boys. And they were sitting sniffing glue. And I went to them. At this time, I was young, and I introduced myself. And I told them, ‘I was not thinking that children are on the street. What you are doing here?’ They told me, ‘We don't know who you are. We don't know if you are police.’ When they heard that I am physician and I have, you know, my bag with all the pills, the treatment and all these emergency things, they start showing me, you know, very, very old scars.

And while treating that we started discussing about the reality, about what they are facing. So, three of them really were victims of violence at home, but also victims of poverty, and victims of many, many arrests, and victims of sexual violence on the streets. And when I started speaking about sniffing glue, because this they told me it's the only way really to survive. Because when you are sniffing glue, you can sleep without being in alert mode. But in the same time, my God, they were smiling and they have this energy and they have this survival telling, ‘But no worries, we can find solution.’ And thanks to these three boys, I discovered all the squats, all the places that nobody knows. Cemeteries, you know, market and so on.

 

Melissa Fleming 08:45

Was it just you driving around and noticing them? And how did you notice them? And is there any child that you can remember the story of that really struck you?

 

Najat Maalla M'jid 08:54

One day, I'll never forget… He was nine years old. And he told me, ‘I heard about you. We don't understand what you are doing. We know that you are a doctor.’ I told him, ‘I am trying to understand why you are here and to see what we can do.’ I told him, ‘You know, I just want to ask you a question. You have a problem with your family. This is what you told me. You are living on streets since at least one year if I'm not wrong, okay? You are surviving, okay? You have friends who are belonging to a clan, to a group. But since the same time, my goal for me, what I'm thinking is how I can really help you. And with your consent to make you return to your family to start thinking about life projects, about schooling, what you need, you have dreams and so on.’

And he told me, ‘I just want to let you know that maybe you are wrong, because even if you are going to bring me back to my family, the problem is still there. And regarding school, if you want to bring me to school, I was in school. But you know how these public schools are. You know that we are beaten in school, that we are not well treated, that it's not possible, that I have also to support my mom, and I have to beg for my mom and so on.’ So, he told me, ‘I think it's not the good solution. You have to change all these things, if you want us to come back.’ And he gave me one wonderful lesson because I was thinking that it will be very easy. And I realized that when children are excluded, if you are not working with the whole system, you need to work with parents and you need to invest [in] schooling, education, the nurturing care. This is very important [inaudible] need start. And it was amazing. And I remember when we started opening finally because I was arrested many times.

 

 

Melissa Fleming 10:44

You say this as kind of matter of fact. You were arrested for helping children on the street?

 

Najat Maalla M'jid 10:49

Yes, because children on streets were not recognized as children in need of protection. They were considered as delinquent.

 

Melissa Fleming 10:58

Delinquent.

 

Najat Maalla M'jid 10:59

Yes. When I was on the street, the police arrived and telling, ‘What you are doing with these children? They have not to be on streets and you have not to be on the streets.’ I told him, ‘I have to be on the streets. I am with them.’ But you know, they didn't want to arrest me personally. They were telling, ‘We are going to arrest them, but not you.’ I told them ‘No, I am working with them. They are doing no bad thing. So, you arrest them, I go with them.’ And we leave the police station together. I start speaking up strongly about this situation, because I visit the centre, the detention centre, and I saw so many bad things - torture, ill treatment.

And I started doing film and having journalists from outside. And even the journalists from outside were arrested with me because I was accused to sell a bad image of the country. But I didn't care because, very frankly, it was for these children. And because I was telling to myself, ‘I am accountable to them. I start something. I cannot give up.’ And things change after that. I was arrested at least 40 or 48 times. At the end. I was telling them, ‘Could we go to another police station. At least I can do raising awareness, because currently you will know me very well. So, we can go in another place.’ It becomes a joke. And very frankly…

 

Melissa Fleming 12:10

At the same time, you were holding down I'm sure this very stressful and busy position at the hospital.

 

Najat Maalla M'jid 12:16

And I was the mother of two daughters.

 

Melissa Fleming 12:21

And you were the mother of two daughters. So how did you cope with balancing all of this? It sounds like especially…

 

Najat Maalla M'jid 12:30

It was crazy

 

Melissa Fleming 12:31

What did you say when you went home and said, ‘I've been arrested again? It's the 48th time.’

 

Najat Maalla M'jid 12:36

You know, it was very important for me to inform and to really make sure that my daughters are knowing what I am doing. They went with me on streets and…

 

 

 

Melissa Fleming 12:49

Can you describe the day that you took them with you to the streets.

 

Najat Maalla M'jid 12:53

I took them. They were with me on street. I never forget, I have my little daughter. She was with me. And we have a programme in Essaouira. And we found, you know, a big network of sexual exploitation of children by local people, but also foreigners. And I decided to see the governor. And I called him telling, ‘I need to see you.’ And my daughter came with me. And it was amazing, you know, you arrive in this wonderful building. And I had the meeting on a Saturday because I have no time. And I explained what is going on. And I told him, ‘You have to take position very quickly. Because this is happening here. It's happening here. And I have a problem, because police is not doing their jobs. There is a problem of corruption. So, if you are not going to do it, I will really, really make it loud. And we have to stop this issue and it's your responsibility.’

And I never forget I was explaining, and my daughter was sitting close to me. And we resolve all the problem. And at the end, we were leaving, you know, and the governor turned to my daughter telling her, ‘You have a mom that is amazing. She's spending a lot of time with children and so on. So, you are proud of her?’ She looked at him, ‘Yes. Yes.’ And he told her, ‘But she has no time for you. It's holidays, weekend.’ And she told him, ‘Mr. governor, my mom is working because you didn't do your job.’

 

Melissa Fleming 14:23

How did he react to that?

 

Najat Maalla M'jid 14:26

He told her, ‘You're right. We didn't do our job.’

 

Melissa Fleming 14:32

You've talked about how with some children the light goes out of their eyes. Is there a situation during your practice, whether in the hospital or on the streets, where you just weren't able to help?

 

Najat Maalla M'jid 14:49

Oh yes, I saw so many, my dear. Because you have some children who are so destroyed and it's too late. It's very difficult to work with those who are in so bad situation because you have so many, many, many, many trauma. Many things broken and lack of affection. Rape. You know, it's crazy what… Incest. What I saw in my life, it's too much. And more recently, you know, I was in Lebanon visiting a refugee camp. And this child, he was 13 years old. He told me, ‘When I arrived here, I was very young. It's seven years that I am living here. Seven years in this refugee camp. I am in jail in the refugee camp, and I am in jail in my own body.’ And he told me, ‘This is not life.’ And I told him, ‘What can make you having again appetite for living?’ He told me, ‘It's too late.’ Worldwide - suffering, despair, suicide is increasing. And we have to be very careful about what we are doing. It's always between this hope and despair. And it's why I'm really pushing to act quickly. To act quickly.

 

 

Melissa Fleming 16:01

In 2008, you were named UN Special Rapporteur on the Sale of Children, Child Prostitution and Child Pornography. That must have been quite a challenge, you know, for the world. What did you try to achieve with that role and what needs to be done in the world on behalf of those children?

 

Najat Maalla M'jid 16:25

My God, we have to never forget. Children are becoming a big market. You have not only child sexual abuse material, but you have grooming, sexting, sextortion, live streaming. You have promotion of suicide. You have promotion of self-harm. You have enrollment. You have fake news. You have, you know, theft of identity and privacy of children that are used. You have gambling. You have gaming. The list is huge. And exposure to violence, exposure to harmful content, exposure to violence, sexual, you know. It's why I'm pushing currently, even when we are seeing with countries, we have this pushback regarding sexual education and reproductive health, to tell them, ‘My God, it's needed more than ever. It’s not encouraging them to have sex.’ So, we need to make sure that they are aware.

 

Melissa Fleming 17:11

You just gave this incredible list of what children are exposed to online. What would you say, and what would your message be to the social media platform?

 

Najat Maalla M'jid 17:21

Oh, my God. They have a role, responsibility regarding that because it's about governance, sure. But also, these are crimes and all the responses to date, it's only based on voluntary approach. I think what it's important currently- because it's going very fast, and we saw Metaverse AI and so on - to have child safety by design, to have child impact assessment before. Because it's too late. We are always lagging behind. And in the same time, they have to stop, you know, using the excuse of right to privacy. Yes, but these are crimes. And the right to privacy of children is important also here.

 

Melissa Fleming 18:02

Absolutely. I mean, now you have the title of Special Representative of the Secretary-General on Violence against Children, which encompasses all of this. So, what is keeping you awake at night?

 

 

Najat Maalla M'jid 18:15

For me, this mandate is a tool you know, it's how we can use it really to make things change. What energizes me, to be very frank with you, are children. What I learned from them. I am admiring them. Children became wonderful. They're having their own life. It's possible. We can make it. And my God, what they overcome, what they face. An adult could be become crazy. But they are here, and they are able to give you. They are generous. I never forget, you know, one girl that I saved from rape, from incest I discovered inside the home. It was a big putting the father in jail. You know, it was not an easy task. But anyway, she was wonderful. She's currently [a] mom, and she has her own life project and she's wonderful and so on. And it was amazing. They are able to give and to share. You know, just seeing them I cannot give up.

 

Melissa Fleming 19:15

When you aren't working, is there anything that you… Do you ever have any free time?

 

Najat Maalla M'jid 19:20

No. It’s crazy currently. Before I had, you know, free time. But currently I'm living very far from my family. I am alone here, and my family is in Morocco. But I am working like crazy because we are a small team. And you cannot tell I am going to stop. So, I am always… I was in the office since 6 am this morning. Not because I was telling I'm the best. Just because I'm crazy and also because I am committed. It's like I am.

 

Melissa Fleming 19:49

So, you wake up at night and come to the office.

 

Najat Maalla M'jid 19:51

Yes. Yes, I did. Because I have some meeting, because depending on the time difference, I can have one at midnight and the other at 2:00 and being in the office at 6:00. This this is like I am. I am never happy with myself. I want to…I am always telling that I can do better. This is the way.

 

 

Melissa Fleming 20:15

I didn't ask you if you had a husband...?

 

Najat Maalla M'jid 20:21

My husband died when I was 37 years old. I am widow and I was with my daughters.

 

Melissa Fleming 20:26

How old were they when he died?

 

Najat Maalla M'jid 20:29

Eleven and almost seven. Was a very difficult moment.

 

Melissa Fleming 20:36

I'm really sorry.

 

Najat Maalla M'jid 20:37

Really very difficult. But at the same time, they were very courageous. Because I never forget they were telling me, ‘Promise us, mom, that you're not going to die.’ I told them, ‘I cannot. This is a promise I cannot make. I cannot.’ I am really happy with them. And you know, for me, what is important is to make sure that my daughter, my grandson, trust me and are proud of me. This is most important for me.

 

Melissa Fleming 21:00

Did they follow in your footsteps?

 

Najat Maalla M'jid 21:02

They are doing a lot. They are crazy also.

 

Melissa Fleming 21:06

I don’t know if I would call that crazy.

 

Najat Maalla M'jid 21:08

So, you know, sometimes I tell them, ‘Just don't do like me’. ‘No, we can’t’.

 

Melissa Fleming 21:12

That's wonderful. I mean, I think from what you're saying it is… The crisis of children in our world is all of our crises. And we all need to pitch in. And it's not something that is affecting only poor children. Our children are in trouble, but they have so much courage, so much resilience.

 

Najat Maalla M'jid 21:35

And it is why we forget them. And we have to be very careful. You know what made me crazy Melissa, when we are speaking, you know, you hear some strong policymakers telling, ‘Our children are our future.’ They are not your future. You are the past. They are the present and they are their own future. Never forget children. And this is really important.

 

 

Melissa Fleming 21:54

And start now. Najat, thank you so much for sharing your story.

 

Najat Maalla M'jid 21:58

Thank you, Melissa.

 

Melissa Fleming 21:59

And your passion. I am sure that so many children are in a much better place thanks to you.

 

Najat Maalla M'jid 22:07

And thanks to them I learned a lot also. I want really to thank… We need to be humble, and just to see, to open eyes, open ears and to never forget that human being. Sometimes it's just a smile, you know, just to see them because they are existing. But it was a pleasure, Melissa.

 

Melissa Fleming 22:31

Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world a better and safer place.

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. On Twitter, we’re @UN and I'm @melissafleming. Do subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please take the time to review us. It helps more people find the show.

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell, to Jen Thomas, Adam Paylor, to my colleagues at the UN: Roberta Politi, Julia Hagel, Geneva Damayanti, Tulin Battikhi and Bissera Kostova. And the team at the UN studio. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier. Additional music was by Pascal Wyse.