S6-Episode 2: Harnessing Constructive Outrage

 

Melissa Fleming 00:00

From the United Nations, I'm Melissa Fleming. My guest today is a Swedish-Italian diplomat who has worked for the United Nations for 40 years.

Staffan de Mistura 00:09

48, actually.

Melissa Fleming 00:10

48 years. Tackling some of the world's toughest crises in Syria, in Afghanistan and Iraq to name just a few. And now he is the Secretary-General's Personal Envoy for Western Sahara. Welcome, Staffan de Mistura.

Staffan de Mistura 00:30

Thank you, thank you very much. I’m glad to be here. Believe me.

Melissa Fleming 00:42

48 years with the United Nations. That's quite an achievement. Was there a moment early in your career when you thought this is what I must do?

Staffan de Mistura 00:54

Yes. And it was very early. I was hardly 18. And I was a student. And my father had met a wonderful person from World Food Programme at the time [inaudible]. I will never forget him. And my father asked, ‘Can’t I show to my son what does it mean working for the UN. I'm ready to pay the insurance, the travel.’ Because there were no UN volunteers, and all that. We are talking about in the 60s. But during the summer to accompany a mission. And I did. I was not that happy, you know. Because a young man at that age wants to have a nice holiday during the summer holiday. But I ended up in Cyprus. And it changed my life.

I was walking like, you know, taking notes like a younger assistant would do. We were on the so-called Green Line. And I will never forget. It was some children playing football. And on the line almost. And then, I hear a strange noise. Not very noisy. And a child falling on the floor with a little hole here. Bleeding and dead on the spot. A sniper. A sniper had shot him from far away in an area where people in theory should be - at least the civilians - not affected by the tensions. We're talking about in the 60s, between the two communities. And I had never seen at that time anyone dying and being killed. And a child, and a civilian. And you know what, I got such a feeling of outrage. Healthy outrage. Proactive outrage, which I still feel now. And I said, ‘I will try to dedicate myself as much as I can professionally and personally to actually complicating the life to those who are trying to use civilians in a conflict. And trying to help them.’ And that led me to then join WFP and volunteering mostly in war zones.

Melissa Fleming 03:09

What was the circumstances for that child being shot? Did you find out?

Staffan de Mistura 03:13

Well, yes. But you know, then we go into politics on the two sides. The two sides are the Greek and the Türkiye side. He was just playing there. And the other side felt that by doing so you would actually demoralize the other community. And that was a sign to me how in fact food, hunger, civilians had been starting at the time to be used in a conflict. And this has been going on now, as you know, for many other years in many other conflicts.

Melissa Fleming 03:46

When you think about that little child lying on the ground, what did you say at the time? And what did you do when you went back that day, and that evening to the compound you were staying in?

Staffan de Mistura 04:01

I didn't say a word. I was shocked. I was traumatized. And at the same time, I had this strong feeling of outrage. Unjust. This is not fair. And it's not possible that we cannot limit that or stop it wherever we can. Or prevent it. And then I said to myself, ‘You know what?’ I wanted to be a fireman when I was a very child. And then I said, ‘No, I want to be a medical doctor.’ And, but why not trying to be now a medical doctor since I did speak languages due to my dual nationality and the fact that my father, mother could not speak their own mutual language. So, they spoke French. And by the time I learned French, they started talking German between them so they could keep their own secrets. So, I became… many languages. ‘But can't I be a doctor of countries then and trying to actually do what a medical doctor does with people, perhaps with countries.’ And it does have an impact on many other people. So that did push me to specialize myself in conflict areas, volunteer in conflict areas, join WFP and ask to go where no one wanted to go at the time. Which was southern Sudan, and it was a civil war. And that was the beginning.

Melissa Fleming 05:25

I'm curious, why your father… I mean, tell me about him. Why did he want you to do an internship with a humanitarian organization? Did he think you were living too frivolous a life? Or what was…?

Staffan de Mistura 05:43

Potentially, yes of course. The main reason was that my father was the result of the horror of [the] Second World War. He had been involved in it and seen what was happening. And he was having that type of feeling that you have after [the] First World War, Second World War. And we should maintain in the world, frankly, that feeling that there can be an organization, a sort of rules of the game that allow the world to avoid a new major conflict. So, he had a strong ideal dream about the UN. He didn't know the UN, but you know, it was just after war. I'm born in 1947. So that was his hope. And then the feeling that perhaps I could be then part of it, of that dream, which is still going on. And that outrage, you know, is still there. Why would I continue at 75? I'm 75. 22 conflicts. I could be actually finally retiring on a nice island. And I said yes, again, also on that assignment with the Secretary-General. Why? Because that level of outrage is still there.

Melissa Fleming 07:01

And perhaps…

Staffan de Mistura 07:02

And hope.

Melissa Fleming 07:03

That which your father somehow gave to you from his World War Two experience.

Staffan de Mistura 07:10

Exactly.

Melissa Fleming 07:11

That he wanted his children to serve.

Staffan de Mistura 07:14

That’s right. And to a certain degree, he was also a refugee because they came from an area which had been contested between Yugoslavia and Italy, which is called Dalmatia. And so, there was also a feeling of refugee component, and dignity and the need of dignity. And that's why he went to Sweden, which gave the opportunity of having a return to normal life.

Melissa Fleming 07:38

You said your first duty station when you…

Staffan de Mistura 07:41

Sudan.

Melissa Fleming 07:42

Made the decision that this was going to be… I assume you went to university first.

Staffan de Mistura 07:49

Yes, of course. I did political science, and then took courses specializing in negotiating, for instance, in hot areas so-called, where people don't want to negotiate. And then logistics of humanitarian operations. Because I felt and I still feel through that you have an entry point to then produce ceasefires, produce a political dialogue. And then get into an area where perhaps politics can also be discussed. By using the assistance for the people and never forgetting one thing - the real compass is with the people. Does it make a difference? Can it make a difference? Will it have a chance to make a difference for them? Will it give them hope? That's a good compass. That means I'm on the right path.

Melissa Fleming 08:43

So, in your first duty station in Sudan, how did you use that compass? And is there something that you can remember that affected you, that impacted the people you were serving there?

Staffan de Mistura 08:56

Yes, I was very young. 23. In fact, I remember WFP said, ‘You're the youngest person we're taking but you will have to accept to go wherever we tell you to go.’ And I said, ‘Fine.’ And that was done. And when I was there, they told me, ‘You have a mission. We have to bring food to the people in southern Sudan by barges.’ And you can imagine for a young man hoping to make a difference you felt like Indiana Jones. You were on the barges, and you had [a] long trip, more than almost two weeks. Because there were hippos. There were bandits who wanted to take the food you were carrying. And you had logistical problems and diseases. You know, you got stomach problems and so on. And yet you were getting there. And finally, when you get there, I discovered that we had a great opportunity to make a difference, but it was not good enough.

Melissa Fleming 09:58

What was it like when you are able to land, and then to unload and distribute the food to people who were hungry?

Staffan de Mistura 10:05

Great excitement. Great excitement because I felt we made it. But then I learned is not enough to feel that you made it. Because we had brought a lot of tins. At that time WFP in the UN started the World Food Programme by using what was excess quantities of food in developed countries, which was a good entry point for the WFP to be created. In other words, don't throw it away was the method. Give it to us. And we took then what they gave us. Now WFP is much more sophisticated. They can buy it. They can swap it. But that time you took what you had.

Melissa Fleming 10:45

What kind of food was it?

Staffan de Mistura 10:46

Great tins of very good sardines. Very good fish. And that fish was full of proteins. And that was exactly what was missing there. But when I went distributing, thinking that I my first mission was going to change the life for them, I discovered that they did open only one and hardly ate it. So, I said, ‘My God, I've gone studying political science, training myself on that. Volunteering to go. Going to Sudan. Ending up abandoning…’ At that time, I had a girlfriend and private life. I said, ‘No, I go to Sudan on mission.’ And finally, we end up and they don't even touch a tin. So, I said, ‘Why?’ They told me, one of them said, ‘Did you not know this area with this village have a tradition of only eating animals which have a head. You recognize the origin.’ It's a tradition, superstition linked to perhaps the ancestral wars with other villages. And we don't see the heads of the sardines. They are not there. And I said, ‘That's it. It’s over. I brought 23,000 tins, over 15 days of travel, going through the barges, the hippos and the bandits who wanted to take them. And I can't even save these children because they're not eating.’

So, here is the first lesson that I share with my younger colleagues. Don't believe that in the UN, you just have to apply rules. You have to be creative. You have to think out of the box. That’s the strength of wanting to make a difference. So, I thought and then finally it came the idea. With an interpreter, I went to each of the small villages of that tribe, and then sat on the roof of the Land Rover, with a loudspeaker which I’ve always been taking with me ever since in any mission. And I then, through the interpreter, said to the whole village, ‘Come please! I'm having here 1000 tins on the floor. One, the eldest person, woman, man, and the youngest of the village - come [to the] front! And you choose out of the 1000 tins - three.  And I will eat them publicly in front of you. You watch it, and I will come back tomorrow. And if I'm alive, that means these tins are not poisoned.’ So, I did so for about 7-8 days. I got sick actually, because too much protein. But they started eating it and we saved the mission.

Melissa Fleming 13:33

That's an amazing story. Thanks for sharing that. So, you ended up serving in some of the world's most dangerous and difficult places, including Afghanistan, Iraq. You've already told us about Sudan, Somalia. Is there a moment when you think about all of these where that constructive outrage that you felt when you saw that boy shot kind of consumed you and got particular results? I believe you have a particular sympathy with refugees.

Staffan de Mistura 14:09

Somalia. 1992. Black Hawk Down. Terrible moment for the UN. They were involved in a peacekeeping operation while at the same time being conceived or perceived, rightly, or wrongly as having taken sides. I was working for UNICEF at the time. And I remember we insisted on staying outside the compound in the city to show that we are there for the people. But that had its risks. And one day three guys show up. They get through the checkpoint of the office, come to my office. [They] had a Kalashnikov with them. Put it on my table in my office. Go through everything because they knew how to do it. And tell me, ‘Mr. de Mistura, we are here because you owe us $340,000.’ And I say, ‘What do you mean?’ ‘Because we have always been protecting UN, UNICEF convoys.’ I said, ‘I'm not aware of it. We have UN troops, and we have a UN operation.’ ‘Well, we were part of a sort of system by which we were either attacking or not attacking, in the past, UN convoys. And one way to do so was to make sure that we actually are paid. And we decided that not to attack your convoys, and therefore you owe us a salary.’ And I said, ‘If I had $340,000 in my budget, I would use it for your children, by the way.’ ‘No, no, no. We don't care about that. We know that you can pay, or else we will be attacking the UNICEF office.’

So, I had two options - outrage, yes, but creativity too. Close the office, which meant affecting thousands and thousands of children being helped by UNICEF, which was the biggest, together with WFP, operation at the time. Or remember one thing - our best allies are our beneficiaries. So again, I had a meeting with all the beneficiaries, their families, the nurses, the schoolteachers, the drivers, all Somalis. And said, ‘Dear friends, I have only two options. One is to close the office and go to Nairobi. And it will be a failure for me, for UNICEF and for you, and for the Somali people in general. Or else since I cannot - and even if I did have the possibility, I would never pay $340,000 from the budget which will be used for vaccination, for the medicines - yield on that. I see in your eyes outrage. Believe me, I have the same outrage. But I think you are in a position of expressing it to your own citizens who think that they can milk us out by this type of blackmail. I leave it to you.’

And four days afterwards, the delegation came to see me. And I said… And they knew where I was living. So, they knew everything. And they said, ‘We are having a having a horrible time.’ I said, ‘Well, I'm sorry for you. What is your problem?’ ‘Well, whenever we go to the market, people throw stones at us. They know, whenever we are at home. They have been actually saying bad words to our family. They've been punching our cars. They've been saying that we are horrible. And this is an impossible life.’ I said, ‘Well, I'm sorry to hear that. But I have a proposal. According to the local law, if you're really saying that you work for us, I am in a position of hiring you. And according to the local law, by hiring you, I owe you only $9,273. If you pretend you worked for me, which you never did. Alternative one option. This is called the negotiating technique of scenarios. Scenario One, you disagree, and you try to kill me and my colleagues. We are naive in the UN but not stupid. We will make sure that you don't kill us, and our colleagues will be flying out in Nairobi. And you will have that type of unpleasant atmosphere for the next 15 years. Option Two - that you agree you get $9000 because at the end of the day, I have some pocket money for some of these facilitation options. And you may one day become a driver of the trucks which carry food, and this is a much more dignified job. And no one will actually be angry with you, and you will be actually thanked. Think about it.’ They chose Option Two. And UNICEF is still in Somalia.

Melissa Fleming 19:22

And did they actually work for that $9,000?

Staffan de Mistura 19:24

Yes, they did. Because one of them was recruited as a driver. And that became part of the money that we did use to actually use those trucks.

Melissa Fleming 19:34

Constructive outrage.

Staffan de Mistura 19:35

That's right, constructive outrage, and creativity again. And never give up. And never forget that your best allies can be the very people - but they need to know it - that are being helped by you.

Melissa Fleming 19:53

So, you've worked for WFP. You worked for UNICEF.

Staffan de Mistura 19:55

UNHCR.

Melissa Fleming 19:56

You went to UNHCR. I know, we're not really going in chronological order, and we can't talk about every conflict and every war that you've served in. But I believe also during your career that you served in Afghanistan.

Staffan de Mistura 20:10

Yes, I've been three, four times, actually. During the time of the end of the Soviet presence. And then during the time when the Mujahideen were actually very much fighting each other for a period and trying to bring back refugees from Peshawar with the Operation Salaam. And then as a Special Envoy of the Secretary-General during the time of the NATO presence there.

Melissa Fleming 20:40

I hear from so many humanitarian colleagues, UN colleagues, journalists, who have served in Afghanistan, that they can never get it out of their heart. There's something about the people of Afghanistan. Was it like that for you?

Staffan de Mistura 20:59

Absolutely. The country is stunning, in its own contrast, in its own difficult environment, in a beautiful environment. And the people are so particular. They are proud. That's why no empire was ever able to take over that country. And they are at the same time, a mixture of so many ethnical backgrounds and religious backgrounds. But it's been also a very difficult moment for me. Because it is the place where for the first time - and I will never, never forget it - I had losses in my team.

Melissa Fleming 21:46

What happened?

Staffan de Mistura 21:48

Well, I don't like to talk about it because it's really a painful moment. I had a thousand colleagues almost working with me. And for me, they were great people. And each of them was very important because they really volunteered to go. And it was not an easy time because they were located all over. And one location with Mazar-i-Sharif in the North. And then an idiot - let me call him by name - somewhere in Florida, decided to burn the Holy Quran publicly. That produced a series of very tense, violent reactions, which, you know, took place all over. And one of them took place in Mazar-i-Sharif after the prayers at the mosque. And a crowd - which we then discovered infiltrated by three or four Taliban who pretended to have been converted into a peaceful approach - got in and then pushed the crowd to go towards the American Consulate. Huge building, but not finished and empty. And they felt, let's go to the UN headquarters, which was much less, sort of a concrete building, with Nepalese Gurkhas protecting it. And they just crashed the door, killed three of my colleagues. And killed four of the Gurkhas who in their own courageous way, decided not to shoot at the crowd, but shoot in the air. But by doing so, being identified. I flew immediately from Kabul with our plane. Arrived in a scene that I will not forget. Brought together with my colleagues on our own shoulders the bodies in the coffins with the UN flag on it. And announced we will never give up on Afghanistan simply because some people had been doing what they did. It’s one of the moments when I remember that this is not an easy job. You really have to be believing in it if you want to do it.

Melissa Fleming 24:19

Fast forward 2014. You were semi-retired, living in the beautiful island of Capri in Italy.

Staffan de Mistura 24:29

Trying to think about writing my memories. And then…

Melissa Fleming 24:32

And then a call came in from Ban Ki-moon, the then Secretary-General, offering you what back then may have been the world's most difficult job - the job of Special Envoy for Syria. And it was just as the war was raging there. So, tell me about that phone call and how you reacted.

Staffan de Mistura 24:51

It was a very special one because, you see after I had already done basically what - almost 40 years by then. And Capri was not just Capri because there was a [inaudible] foundation, which was trying to make that place the centre for training and helping women in the Mediterranean. But then the call arrives. And I say, ‘No, thank you, but I'm already here.’ And then I get from his office statistics of how many people had already died in Syria, and how bad the situation was. And two people I respect a lot - Kofi Annan, and then Lakhdar Brahimi - had both tried and had the Geneva conference, which then was sabotaged, basically. And there was vacuum. So, I said no, again, but then couldn't sleep the whole night. And by three o'clock, I told my wife, ‘You know, I know Capri is wonderful, but it's like a medical doctor who has got still his hands. People are doing surgery, and they ask him, perhaps you have enough experience to make a difference on this patient. And I say, no, I go to Capri.’ And I said yes.

Melissa Fleming 26:14

You mention Kofi Annan and Lakhdar Brahimi.

Staffan de Mistura 26:17

Yes.

Melissa Fleming 26:18

They were also very experienced diplomats. And they had given up in frustration, so you said yes. Your wife…

Staffan de Mistura 26:29

Accepted it because she told me, ‘I know, you will regret it. And you will feel unhappy.’ And, and I owe to her a lot for that. Because it could have been easy simply to try to say, ‘Now come on, you’ve already proven yourself. Why saying yes, here?’

Melissa Fleming 26:45

That she knows you. And she knows that you would have been unhappy.

Staffan de Mistura 26:50

Unhappy

Melissa Fleming 26:51

Unhappy and thinking about what could have been if you didn't take it. So, she supported you?

Staffan de Mistura 26:55

Yes. And it was a vacuum in the UN. You know, after two failed conferences, you have a depression. You start feeling, ‘We can do nothing.’ And even the team was feeling depressed, basically.

Melissa Fleming 27:10

So, you go into this depressed situation.  Kind of mission impossible, like nobody has managed to negotiate peace.

Staffan de Mistura 27:19

But that's not the purpose. You see if you have…

Melissa Fleming 27:21

What is the purpose?

Staffan de Mistura 27:22

The purpose, if you're aiming at negotiating peace and you fail, then you do feel failure. And then if you do feel failure, you convey that failure to those who are hoping that you can make a difference. So, let's go back to my medical doctor, then. What does a medical doctor [do] when his is or she [is] faced with Alzheimer's or a terminal cancer? Would he or she give up on the patient and say, ‘Well, you know, you're a desperate case. Goodbye. I will take care of cases which work out.’ Or we'll try to give them hope. Give them reduction of pain through intervention on the humanitarian side. So, give them the feeling that you're there with them, that you're trying, and you will be with them all the time. And perhaps tomorrow, suddenly, there is an antibiotic found. And therefore, perhaps suddenly, something happens in geopolitics. And God knows if I had not seen many changes and shifts recently, even that makes the equation different. And that's where you're ready to make the difference. Meanwhile, you have not abandoned the patient. You're providing, if nothing else, a feeling of a hope.

Melissa Fleming 28:41

So, when critics dismissed talks that you conducted as having been useless, or you know, not making any progress, how did you respond to that? Did you use the doctor analogy?

Staffan de Mistura 28:54

I did. But the best to me was an NGO - I don't remember which one actually - who called me when I announced my decision after four and a half years to end my mission. Then someone contacted me and said, ‘Perhaps you may be feeling frustrated by the fact that you didn't stop the war.’ I said, ‘Well, I am.’ Although I recognized it was always mission impossible. ‘And yeah, but we have been coming up with some analysis.’ And I said, ‘Go ahead.’ ‘All the times that you organized or pushed for a humanitarian convoy. All the times that together with John Kerry and Sergey Lavrov - because there was a moment, magic moment when things were working, which shows that when the superpowers talk to each other, have a common interest, things can move forward -there were ceasefires. And you had those conferences and meetings in Geneva. Never conferences because that's how you offer your flank to be stopped, sabotaged. You call them, you know, interactions. You call them consultations. So, no one can actually sabotage it enough. It's like an open house, basically, technique. Well, when you do that, they were not able to actually have total war because they were supposed to pretend or want to show that they meant well. Both sides. All that has produced according to us, at least 250,000 people who were not being killed. Because you interfered with that approach, even if you did not get the famous peace.’

Melissa Fleming 30:37

But you saved lives.

Staffan de Mistura 30:38

And I said to myself, ‘Those people will be perhaps I hope alive by the time we will finally have peace. So, we were not irrelevant.’

Melissa Fleming 30:49

The overall peace, as you know, is not easy. So, do you ever despair?

Staffan de Mistura 30:58

Well, I have moments of frustrations. And those moments of frustrations are helped by not forgetting the picture of the child in Cyprus. And by the eyes of Syrian or other refugees. Or other people, victims. Mostly women, I must say, because I was always very impressed by their resilience to actually say, ‘We don't give up. Why should you give up?’

Melissa Fleming 31:31

Are you still hopeful that peace could be in the near future a possibility for the Syrian people?

Staffan de Mistura 31:37

Yes, I am. And the Syrian people believe that. So, we should never doubt that. And history has proven that there are long conflicts that suddenly can be solved. They have been proving it by being resilient. And they, by the way… I think it will happen.

Melissa Fleming 32:00

Okay, well, we hope for that. These days, you're still working as the Secretary-General's Personal Envoy for Western Sahara. What is your job there?

Staffan de Mistura 32:12

Well, my job is to try to facilitate any avenue. One, for people who are affected [inaudible] to actually be in a better condition. And “B”, for the actual issue to be solved in one way that is just and according to UN resolutions. And here is where it's difficult. It has been going on, you know, how long for? 47 years.

Melissa Fleming 32:41

Almost as long as you have been serving the UN.

Staffan de Mistura 32:45

Exactly. And there again, I'm sure there are formulas, and ways. I met in the camps in Tindouf - which is a camp where the refugees are in the desert in the northern part of Algeria - I met a woman. No two of them, who said, ‘We were teenagers, and we are now grandmothers. We need a solution that would provide us with a future for our own children.’ Facilitating that, which is not obvious after 47 years, but remember never give up is my mission.

Melissa Fleming 33:25

What is keeping you awake at night these days?

Staffan de Mistura 33:30

Two things. The first one is the security of my colleagues, because there are many young people - I'm, you know, 75 - but there are so many young people who are joining and have been working with the UN in the field and elsewhere. And they deserve to make their choices where to go, but also to be not in danger. They deserve it. And the second one. Have I used all the possible creativity, any possible means to actually make a difference? Or do I have to think tonight about some new ways, new avenues? And that keeps me awake quite a lot. The two.

Melissa Fleming 34:14

Do you have children?

Staffan de Mistura 34:15

Yes, two daughters.

Melissa Fleming 34:16

Have they taken your path?

Staffan de Mistura 34:18

One of them is…Both of them were quite angry with me during the teenager period and rightly so. And I discovered why. Because they were able to see in the media that I was not on a holiday, but it was in a dangerous place. And [they] felt - now I understood afterwards and they told me - ‘Why are you risking your life and not thinking that one day we would like to have you with us? Are you choosing between them and us?’ And I said, ‘That's a mission. It’s not just a job.’ ‘And we want you to be alive when we will get married.’ And sure enough, this year one of them got married, and I was there. And they now forgave me because they understood what does it mean the difference between a job and a mission.

Melissa Fleming 35:07

I’m sure they're very proud of you. I understand that you obviously travel a lot, but somebody told me that you carry a silver peppermill with you. Why is that?

Staffan de Mistura 35:20

No, it's not…Well, it is a little box and with southern Italian pepperoncino, which is basically, how would you call it in English?

Melissa Fleming 35:33

It has some chilies in it.

Staffan de Mistura 35:34

Chilies. But small chilies. Why did I do that? Because well, I saw many people in many countries, beneficiaries actually, trying to actually keep going with that vitamin C. That type of antibiotic, natural antibiotic. And plus, I like the taste. And since I don't find it, it gives me comfort. It’s like a comfort to me to say, I've got with me my pepperoncino. Like I always carry a little wooden, Swedish [inaudible] horse, carrying it, which represents to me peace, because that was a symbol in the central part of Sweden. So, there are… You know, we all have our little icons that keep you feeling at home. Even when you're in a tent, like Northern Iraq, where I spent seven months or elsewhere.  

Melissa Fleming 36:28

So, you slip out the pepperoncino when you're served a meal to give it that added spice.

Staffan de Mistura 36:35

Exactly. It gives me added spice, yes.

Melissa Fleming 36:40

How would you say your colleagues would describe you?

Staffan de Mistura 36:46

I leave it to them but, you know, probably as someone who has dedicated his life to the UN and can prove to them that it’s worth it. Because I have no regrets. I would have never chosen another type of job. And that when they get frustrated, say, ‘But this guy has gone through all these conflicts and disappointment and frustration when you see you can't make what you want. And seems to be still enthusiastic about the fact that is worth trying.’

Melissa Fleming 37:28

You still seem to have hope. What is it that you hope for?

Staffan de Mistura 37:32

To make a difference. Yeah. And I think you can do it even in the worst-case scenario. Always.

Melissa Fleming 37:39

Thank you, Staffan. Thank you so much for joining me. It's great to see you here in New York. And really good luck with your current mission in Western Sahara.

Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working to do some good in this world at a time of global crisis.

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. On Twitter, we’re @UN and I'm @melissafleming. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please do take the time to review us. It helps more people find the show.

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