S8-Episode 8: Pursuing Justice in ISIL’s Wake

 

 

 

Melissa Fleming 00:00
Imagine trying to bring justice for the victims of horrific crimes of the extremist group Islamic State, also known as ISIL. That's what my colleague Christian Ritscher does.

 

Christian Ritscher 00:12
Justice gives relief not only to the victims, but to a prosecutor as well. Yeah. So that is what keeps you upright and keeps you going on and says, okay, it is meaningful what you're doing.

 

Melissa Fleming 00:32
Christian is originally from Karlsruhe in Germany, but these days he's based in Baghdad, Iraq, for his job as Special Adviser and Head of the United Nations Investigative Team to Promote Accountability for the Crimes Committed by ISIL. From the United Nations, I'm Melissa Fleming. This is Awake at Night. Hello, Christian.

 

Christian Ritscher 01:06
Hello. Nice to see you.

 

Melissa Fleming 01:08
Nice to see you. I'm speaking to you here from headquarters in New York. And you're in Baghdad, I believe.

 

Christian Ritscher 01:15
I'm in Baghdad, yes. I'm in Baghdad currently in the headquarters of UNITAD.

 

Melissa Fleming 01:21
What is...? Just remind us. What is this group ISIL?

 

Christian Ritscher 01:27
ISIL was or is a terrorist group. Well, you can say that because there are a lot of judgements all over the world saying that ISIL is a terrorist group and acted as a terrorist group which committed horrific crimes mostly between 2014 and 2017 in Iraq and actually as well in Syria. And as you probably know somewhere else in the world, like the attacks, for example, in Paris and in other places all over the world and is still active in some regions of Africa or in Central Asia. It's a terrorist group pretending to act in accordance with Islamic rules. And while using this justification for establishing a brutal regime wherever they are in power and wherever they are able to terrorize civil population. It's a classical terrorist group and using brutal measures like killing, like abductions, like sexual assaults, whatever you can imagine, to terrorize [the] population.

 

Melissa Fleming 02:45
Are there specific crimes that you're looking at in particular that were committed by ISIL in Iraq?

 

Christian Ritscher 02:53
Yeah. UNITAD was established to promote accountability for the international crimes which were committed by ISIL. So we are looking into what is by definition an international crime, and that is genocide, crimes against humanity and the war crimes as you can find it in the Geneva Conventions and the Genocide Convention and for example, most recently, you have it now in the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court. But as well, you can find the definitions of these crimes, the qualifications and a lot of domestic legislations, criminal legislations throughout the world, like for example, in European countries or in Australia, for example. And currently Iraq is discussing a draft domestic legislation on international crimes.

And international crimes means genocide - what is I think the best known international crime what means that you intend to annihilate a certain specific group of population. Then we have the crimes against humanity, which are crimes, mass atrocities against civilian population. And you have the war crimes where you have... These are crimes which are committed in relationship with an international or non-international armed conflict, means a war. All very heinous crimes from killing, abductions, severe mistreatment, sexual assaults, rape, of course, the child recruitment in an armed conflict, for example, all these very cruel crimes which are considered by the international community as the most heinous crimes. And yeah, that is what UNITAD is doing. We are looking into these crimes committed by ISIL because, well, when you're an investigator you’ll see pretty clearly that ISIL did not hesitate at all to commit these crimes, while terrorizing the population and trying to establish their own caliphate or regime.

 

Melissa Fleming 05:21
Most of us will remember, in the context of Iraq, the horrific crimes against humanity committed against the Yazidi population. Is that...? Can you describe what happened to this population.

 

Christian Ritscher 05:39
Yeah, of course. The crimes against the Yazidi population in Iraq is, of course, one of our priorities and has been one of our priorities right from the beginning, because it was so obvious that the leaders of ISIL obviously wanted to let them vanish from Earth. They committed systematic and very brutal attacks on the Yazidi population, which is living in the Sinjar, mostly in the Sinjar region of Iraq that is in the north and northeastern part of Iraq. By killing the male Yazidis and by enslaving the female ones for the purposes of housekeeping and as sex slaves, selling them as slaves. They were real slave trades from Iraq to Syria and back. And actually hundreds, if not thousands of Yazidis are still not back from wherever they are now. Some of them, a lot of them might be dead, but a lot of them are probably still in possession of someone somewhere in the world. That is really one of the tragedies of the last ten years, what happened to the Yazidi population here.

 

Melissa Fleming 07:02
Part of your work must be to meet some of these victims and to get some witness statements.

 

Christian Ritscher 07:08
Yeah, of course. That is our day-to-day work. We are doing a lot of interviews of Yazidi victims in particular here in Iraq, but as well abroad to get the full picture of what happened there and in particular in August of 2014, when I saw attacked the Sinjar region.

 

Melissa Fleming 07:31
It took a lot for especially the women because of traditions in the Yazidi community to be able to speak about these horrific crimes.

 

Christian Ritscher 07:43
In particular, the women are now, in a way, in a role of leadership. Yeah. It was interesting to see. I visited the Sinjar region together with the Special Adviser for the Prevention of Genocide, Alice Nderitu, a year ago in May last year. I was at the Sinjar region, and we met with Yazidi survivors and relatives of victims. Actually, for us it is of course a challenge to create an environment that the victims - and this not only holds true for the Yazidis, but for other particularly female victims of ISIL as well - to come forward with their testimony and that they feel comfortable and give the full testimony. And that very often takes days, if not weeks, to let them tell the full story.

 

Melissa Fleming 08:46
I mean, I understand, obviously, if such a tight knit community, ancient community that has also been persecuted over time when there was an attempt to wipe them out completely. It seemed their reaction was to do everything possible to welcome everyone back who survived, no matter what happened to them. And also to seek justice. So, do they look at you when you go and speak to these women, to these men, survivors, to the children...? Do they look to you as their hope that they may get justice?

 

Christian Ritscher 09:32
Yes, to a certain extent. I think the jurisdiction in general is part of the hope of the Yazidi community. You know, there were some convictions, particularly in Germany, regarding crimes against Yazidi community members recently in Koblenz. And these convictions are all very welcomed, in particular the one against Taha al-J in Frankfurt in 2021 when he was convicted for genocide for a lifetime sentence because he killed, he was responsible for the killing of a little Yazidi girl. That was very well resonated in the worldwide and the Yazidi community. And this gives hope and actually encourages the victims to come forward and not to remain silent and just do nothing but to actively come forward and to raise their voice, actually.

 

Melissa Fleming 10:37
Very good. And meanwhile, you're setting up all of the evidence.

 

Christian Ritscher 10:42
Yeah.

 

Melissa Fleming 10:43
So that...

 

Christian Ritscher 10:43
Exactly.

 

Melissa Fleming 10:44
So that many of these cases could be brought to trial.

 

Christian Ritscher 10:47
Exactly.

 

Melissa Fleming 10:49
I wonder how this work personally affects you.

 

Christian Ritscher 10:56
Yes, it does. It... You develop some measures to work with this professionally. You have to have a professional distance to the work you're doing otherwise you lose… You get lost in the work. I've been doing this, these international crimes, prosecution, now for more than ten years, 15 years now. Started in 2007 or [200]8. I was in Germany doing investigative work regarding international crimes committed mostly in African countries. And then later on, the focus shifted towards the Middle East particularly with Syria and Iraq and then with ISIL. So in a way, I'm used to these kinds of crimes, actually.

And I know that they are horrific and that is really... Nevertheless, it's always very touching when you're in a direct discussion or relationship or confrontation with the victims themselves. And they tell their stories. And this is something what is not easy. Here in my position now as a Special Adviser and Head of UNITAD, I'm not very much related with the day-to-day investigative work. So I'm doing the coordination. I'm doing a lot of diplomacy. I'm caring about, you know, all the UN bureaucracy, things which are necessary and all these things. So I'm not very much confronted with the cruelty of ISIL crimes, but I'm well aware of this. And yeah, you reflect on that.

But in the end, what keeps you upright in this is if you're successful in a way. So that means when we finalize a report, for example, or we contribute successfully to a trial and in the end there's a conviction, then you see justice gives the relief not only to the victims, but to a prosecutor as well. Yeah. So that is what keeps you upright and keeps you going on and says, okay, it is meaningful what you're doing. It is not nice and you're always... Well, as a prosecutor, you are always dealing with crimes. So you get a little bit of a different view on the world anyway. But in this case, okay, you have really horrific crimes. It's not about theft or drunken driving. Yeah.

 

Melissa Fleming 13:42
No, I mean, I wonder… I mean, you said this is what keeps you going but what keeps you awake at night?

 

Christian Ritscher 13:50
Yeah. Actually, what keeps me awake at night is not so much about what happened to the victims. This is what keeps you awake at night at the beginning. But one day you're going to get used to it. What keeps you up at night is more about what... how to proceed with UNITAD and what are the next steps. What is the next strategy? What can we do in terms of [inaudible]? I don't know, the next Security Council report, and yeah. How to, you know, within… even in such an entity like this investigative team you have to be creative. You have to think about next steps. You have to think about the strategy how to move on. You owe that to the victims, actually. What we are doing is not just for us or for officials or whatever. In the end, we serve justice, and we serve justice for the victims. And then this is what keeps you going. And this is what keeps me awake at night from time to time.

 

Melissa Fleming 15:01
I imagine… I mean, the enormity of the crimes, as you mentioned, and the relative smallness of your mission. You also come from a country that perpetrated the worst genocide in history. Does this...? Is this part of your motivation for entering into this field of international war crimes prosecution?

 

Christian Ritscher 15:29
No, to be honest, it was not that much. But of course I have this in my personal background. That is undeniable. Yeah. So the Holocaust is, of course, the example of a genocide in history. And as a German, you have a particular responsibility to take care of the victims of a genocide. That is actually my very personal understanding. I would phrase it like this. It was not my first motivation to go into this branch of international criminal law. I think even without that background, it's always interesting for a prosecutor to prosecute and to investigate international crimes. It is meaningful. It is necessary, unfortunately. And it is in a way even interesting under legal aspects because it's pretty new, pretty recent, and there is not a lot of judgements on specific questions of international criminal law. So even from a technical, legal technical point of view, it is challenging and interesting to work on that field.

 

Melissa Fleming 16:51
I mean, I wonder... I mean, just back to the Holocaust after the crimes, the extent of the crimes, the genocide against the Jewish people was really recognized and uncovered. And I mean, the refrain that went around the world was "never again". And yet we have had genocides, horrific genocides since then. The Srebrenica genocide against men and boys in Bosnia and Herzegovina, the genocide against the Tutsi in Rwanda, and others, the Yazidi. The Yazidi people attempted to be completely wiped out. What does that "never again" refrain mean? Is there anything your work can do to contribute to really ensuring that genocides shouldn't happen again?

 

Christian Ritscher 17:54
I think we as lawyers and as prosecutors, as judges, we can try to contribute to that "never again". But actually, you know, the layer of civilization is extremely thin. This is... I think this is something what you could see during the last decades regarding the crimes and the genocides which you just mentioned. Nowadays, committing a genocide was still possible. And unfortunately, you can see that it happens from time to time. Yeah. That is if you want it or not. It's reality. But I think we have measures now with the international criminal law that the perpetrators do not go unpunished. They do not go unpunished. And I still have the hope that this is something what prevents people from committing genocide. You cannot exclude that because obviously the ISIL members and the leadership of ISIL thought that they would never go... would never be punished. They did not even hide anything what the crimes they committed. They did it publicly. They announced it. And maybe some of them were convinced that this is the right thing to do. But nevertheless, yeah, beside this prevention, the reconciliation, from my point of view, and giving justice to the victims is the most important thing in our work, even if we fail to prevent people from being victims of international crimes.

 

Melissa Fleming 19:54
The more you learn about the horrors of the war crimes you're investigating do you lose faith in humanity?

 

Christian Ritscher 20:10
Yeah. I'm pretty... I have a little bit of a distance to that. Maybe I've lost faith in humanity to a certain extent. I still believe that it is always worth fighting for humanity and that I actively work for that. Otherwise, I wouldn't be where I am. But nevertheless, I'm not naive. And I know that even the concept of humanity can be interpreted differently in different situations. Other people might not agree with my concept of humanity. It is difficult. I don't think that the world is a very... became a much better place over the last years in particular. And there might be a reason to lose faith in humanity, yes.

 

Melissa Fleming 21:23
I mean, we would like to believe that human beings are innately good, but unfortunately, when we see these things, it's...you wonder. You mention back to your... What is it like living in Baghdad? Like what's day-to-day life like these days?

 

Christian Ritscher 21:47
Well, UN staff members are living in compounds. We have a UN compound here in Baghdad where I'm living, and my colleagues are living here as well. The international colleagues are living here as well. That's okay.

 

Melissa Fleming 22:02
How many of you are there?

 

Christian Ritscher 22:03
In the compound? Yeah, well, we have a compound together with UNAMI. I'm not sure how many people we are. Several hundred. UNAMI, the other UN mission in Iraq.

 

Melissa Fleming 22:14
I've been in that compound. I mean, it's very protected. There are lots of sandbags everywhere, I remember. And it's just the security situation is such in Baghdad that you just can't go out and...

 

Christian Ritscher 22:29
Yeah, it's...

 

Melissa Fleming 22:30
Wander the streets or go to a cafe or...

 

Christian Ritscher 22:33
Yeah, it's...

 

Melissa Fleming 22:33
Unfortunately.

 

Christian Ritscher 22:34
It's very volatile, actually now, yeah. You remember now recently the attack on the Swedish embassy and, you know, the UN have some very bad experience in terms of mission in Baghdad. And this is why...

 

Melissa Fleming 22:50
It was bombed.

 

Christian Ritscher 22:51
Yeah. Canal street and this is... Well, but at least the integrated compound is a nice one from my point of view. And well, of course, I'm a bit privileged in terms of my housing situation, so there's nothing to complain actually in terms of this.

 

Melissa Fleming 23:10
It is a contrast to Karlsruhe.

 

Christian Ritscher 23:12
Of course.

 

Melissa Fleming 23:13
I wonder how your beautiful Karlsruhe in southwestern Germany…

 

Christian Ritscher [00:23:20]
Exactly.

 

Melissa Fleming 23:21
But I wonder how your family, what did they think of you being there now?

 

Christian Ritscher 23:29
I think they are fine with it as long as I won't do that for the rest of my professional life in the next ten years. I think my wife wouldn't be very happy if I did that. But for the moment they are fine with it. Of course, my wife is not happy when I'm leaving, but nor am I. But it is doable. Nowadays, you know, we have the... What we do now, we can discuss it over the phone or with the Zoom or with any other video communication. And then so I have quite good contact with my family. That is possible. It is doable. In former times when you were forced to send letters or do a phone call which cost you a fortune once a month. So that would have been much more difficult than nowadays.

I think that holds true for most of the international staff members. When you're here you're dedicated to your work. And well, we have an R & R cycle. So from time to time we leave and go back home or go to some other countries. Yeah, that's the life in Baghdad. It's different from our offices in Erbil and Dohuk. There's no such a thing as a compound. And you can rent an apartment in the town, and you can... Yeah. As you mentioned, walk around, go to a coffee, or go for shopping or whatever. That is definitely different. I can go around here as well, but with a car and with the security check in advance, of course.

 

Melissa Fleming 25:08
Armoured car.

 

Christian Ritscher 25:09
Yeah, exactly.

 

Melissa Fleming 25:12
What do you...? I mean, I just wonder. It must be very, very intense. And I know that the work there is... You probably spend most of your time working when you're there. But you must... What do you do to relax and to just maybe get your mind off of horrific war crimes?

 

Christian Ritscher 25:31
You mean here in Baghdad?

 

Melissa Fleming 25:33
Yeah.

 

Christian Ritscher 25:34
Well, you do some... You go and meet with colleagues for, let's say, a lunch or dinner or something informal in the compound or even go out to one of the restaurants here in the Green Zone or to [inaudible] ... One of their hotels has a swimming pool you can use on a weekend, for example, or you do a lot of reading. And people are doing puzzles or whatever you're going to do. It's a bit, you know, what you're doing when you're on vacation. Yeah. And you're not at the beach. So it's... Yeah, you're normally... You know, the work actually is quite challenging, and you have to consider a lot of things. So you're doing some relaxing hobbies. A lot of people are doing sports, of course, as well, which is relaxing in a way as well. You can play tennis in the compound and then you can, I don't know, walk or run or...

 

Melissa Fleming 26:34
Right. I remember running around that...

 

Christian Ritscher 26:37
Yeah.

 

Melissa Fleming 26:38
The periphery.

 

Christian Ritscher: 26:39
All along.

 

Melissa Fleming 26:39
With a lot of others and there was there was quite a gym there.

 

Christian Ritscher 26:43
Yeah. There's a gym.

 

Melissa Fleming 26:44
It's everybody there. No one with their family. And so everybody just makes the best of it.

 

Christian Ritscher 26:51
Exactly.

 

Melissa Fleming 26:53
During their downtime. Yeah. And when you go back to Karlsruhe... I mean, we were chatting at the beginning that we both had spent some time and... Well, I had spent some time in Bayreuth in Germany, which is famous for its Wagner Festival. And you mentioned that you just visited there.

 

Christian Ritscher 27:16
Yeah. This is... Well, when I'm back, my wife and me, we go quite often to operas, for example. And this is why the Wagner Festival this year was… Well, we had the chance to get tickets. It's not easy, as you know, to get tickets. And we had the chance, and my wife actually got the tickets. I myself was not the lucky one. And we visited the opera. And that was really nice to have a series of operas over there. And you know, Bayreuth, you know it, is a nice little town with a baroque environment and friendly... And the weather was pleasant, so it was okay. But normally, actually when we were doing a lot of travelling, even here in the region, I took the chance to go here to other countries of the region to visit. And Iraq would be worth visiting as well if the situation would be a little bit improved. And I think the government is trying to improve the situation. There's a lot of things to be seen in Iraq, a lot of sites which are extremely interesting. And I think tourists would love it.

 

Melissa Fleming 28:35
Absolutely. Let's hope one day Iraq gets back to that place.

 

Christian Ritscher 28:39
Yeah.

 

Melissa Fleming 28:40
Tourists can visit and people can live in safety without the threat of such terrorist groups and atrocities happening. I wonder, also just you mentioned you have children.

 

Christian Ritscher 28:56
Yeah, but they are adults.

 

Melissa Fleming 28:58
Have they followed in your footsteps?

 

Christian Ritscher 28:59
No, they are not lawyers. They are doing different things. No, no. But they are following what I'm doing. But they are adults and not living with us anymore. So they have families of their own.

 

Melissa Fleming 29:11
Okay. Is there anything? I mean, after all this work and seeing kind of the worst of humanity. Is there anything that gives you hope?

 

Christian Ritscher 29:28
Yeah, well, as I mentioned, what gives me hope is that there is a possibility through justice measures to serve in a way the victims, to serve... give kind of a healing to the society by fair trials, by fair procedures. And to establish something like a story what happened based on evidence which is proven and is in the end based on facts and not just a narrative. Yeah. This is the main reason why we are doing that here.

And in the end, human rights are the background of international criminal law in a way. So to serve justice means to serve here in this regard. Means to serve human rights and to serve the people. And this is, I think, what everybody here within UNITAD is dedicated to. Yeah. To enable some reconciliation and to bring Iraq back on a track into the future and not to react on the crimes committed by ISIL with brutality or with something like fake justice or something like this. But with real justice, with the measures which are yeah, developed by the international society, like the customary international criminal law. Because only this would stop this cycle of crimes and of brutality. Yeah. If you react on brutality with brutality, you only provoke new brutality and new crimes. And this is what.... Our concept is to react on crimes and brutality with the rule of law and with justice.

Melissa Fleming 31:38
Christian, thank you so much for this interview.

 

Christian Ritscher 31:40
You're very welcome.

 

Melissa Fleming 31:41
And thank you so much for the work you do.

 

Christian Ritscher 31:43  
Thank you so much.

 

Melissa Fleming 31:46
I really hope that it results in more justice for the Yazidi people, for the people of Iraq.

 

Christian Ritscher 31:51
Thank you so much.

 

Melissa Fleming 31:54
Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world a better and safer place.

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. Do subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please take the time to review us. It helps more people find the show.

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell, to Adam Paylor, Josie Le Blond, and to my colleagues at the UN: Katerina Kitidi, Roberta Politi, Geneva Damayanti, Tulin Battikhi, Bissera Kostova, Anzhelika Devis, Carlos Macias and the team at the UN studio. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier. Additional music was by Pascal Wyse.