Current as of 20 April 1999

Log of 20 April Text Chat Session

Session Open: Tue Apr 20 11:10:00 1999

[11:11] CKlint> hi eye am clint rapley at un, whose office has started the seminar quest about one year ago.
[11:11] CKlint> chuck is here with me at nyu

[11:11] john-m> Santiago, how about introducing yourself
[11:11] john-m> Yes

[11:11] Santiago> OK
[11:12] matt-b> I'm Matt Bonham at Syracuse University. I'm also an Associate of AIMS

[11:12] john-m> Santiago?

[11:13] Santiago> My name is Samntiago velázquez I am the Chair of Latin American Region for DPI (Disabled People International.. I have to say noe that I have to leave for an urgent meeting I could not cancel, but I wanted to ask youi all If I can leave someone from my office to participate in my place?

[11:13] john-m> Yes, please do

[11:14] Santiago> Thanks, I am leaving Cristina Amescua, who is in charge of the e-mail comunications and the internet exploring at the office

[11:14] john-m> Good luck on your meeting and welcome Cristina

[11:14] Santiago> Thanks

[11:14] john-m> Maria Cristina: Hi Santiago, how you will be able to be with us the whole time and hello to Marta

[11:14] Santiago> Hi Maria Cristina, I'll give your hello to Matha.. Now I have to leave, best wishes to all, and I'll have Cristina to tell me all about today's session

[11:15] john-m> Maria Cristina: I'm Maria Cristina Sara-Serrano, president of AIMS and representative of DPI to the UN. I will be a participant in the seminar
[11:16] john-m> Our agenda for today is to discuss how best to set up a website in the context of our individual objectives.
[11:16] john-m> We will discuss how we can narrow objectives down to reality.
[11:16] john-m> Then we will talk about how we can appraise our audiences. Here we should focus on issues of technological and disability access.
[11:17] john-m> Then we should discuss how we decide what kind of information should be presented. [11:17] john-m> Let me kick it off this way. The Internet has now over 4 million sites and maybe a billion individual pages. No one knows for sure. It's growth continues to be exponential.
[11:17] john-m> Posting information on the Internet is like, a hundred years ago, going to a wall in downtown London and pasting a poster on the wall.
[11:18] john-m> The problem is making sure that people will read the poster and that has a lot to do with how you formulate your objective.
[11:19] john-m> Elaine, could you describe how you decided on your objective?

[11:20] elaineos> the topic of universal design in the built env is growing. i see the need for a more focused website on the topic. there are others...
[11:21] elaineos> this si 'just' about universal design, not an organization, or marketing.

[11:21] john-m> How did you narrow down your objective?
[11:21] john-m> But universal design is a pretty big subject. Is your objective then defined by your intended audience?

[11:22] elaineos> I'm trying to narrow - the big need is news, examples, wellpackaged links, timely resources.

[11:22] john-m> Any comments from others?

[11:22] elaineos> I'm focusing on the built enviornment - not information,

[11:23] john-m> Are there other sites dealing with the subject?

[11:23] elaineos> I specified introductory; with layers and links that can get deeper.

[11:24] Santiago> I am not sure of what I am going to say, since this is my first session with you but can the spread of information be considered as an objective?

[11:24] elaineos> there are about 6 or 8 - but all include this with other topics. My own organization for example.

[11:24] matt-b> this structure that elaine is talking about lends itself to hypertext in a Web site environment.

[11:25] elaineos> are people able to see the objectives that I wrote? should I restate here?

[11:25] matt-b> it is posted on the Web site and I have a hard copy.

[11:25] Santiago> I am reading

[11:26] john-m> Cristina, spread of information can be considered part of an objective, but the objective has to specify what the information is to be used for. Information is not an end in itself.

[11:26] CKlint> elaine & john - eye think that we need to step back an consider the matter of "vision" for a universal design site on internet. what is our vision for what is not an ituitively obvious term. what is good is elaines sense of priorities in terms of target audience; however these also are members of the univ design choir.

[11:26] matt-b> that is why we need help with the policy process..

[11:27] elaineos> clint, good point - but I'm trying to reach the 'guys'on the street who are not in the choir.

[11:27] matt-b> we first need to understand the policy process so that we can mobilize support at critical points or nodes in the process to have the maximum impact.

[11:27] john-m> Let me try to link the idea of an objective with the idea of an intended audience. You are using the web technology to reach that audience, so your objective has to be seen in terms of who the information is for.

[11:27] CKlint> ok how do we make univ design accessible to joe six pack and jane soccer mom and professional

[11:28] john-m> Let's use the universal design project as our focus. Do you really want to reach such a diverse audience? The specialists as well as the "person on the street?

[11:28] matt-b> i don't think that we should start with Joe Six Pack

[11:28] elaineos> when i say guys I meant the card carrying AIA types who ignore the topic now as a fringe issue.

[11:29] matt-b> I would start with people who are central to the policy process--the opinion makers.

[11:29] john-m> So, in fact, you have a specialized target audience

[11:29] CKlint> our sens e of objective for univ design is that accessible first off is better and cheaper for all; how to communicate that vision by info' technology and make people come back for more;

[11:30] john-m> Elaine, could you take up Matt's point. Who would be the opinion leaders in the area of universal design?

[11:30] elaineos> opinion makers in the built environment are a little hard to nail down. Michael Graves who is now the Target name designer is one. they are hard to reach...

[11:31] john-m> Then, could they be reached by the technology that we are talking about here?

[11:31] matt-b> why are they so hard to reach, Elaine?

[11:31] elaineos> others more easily reachable are some leaders in the profesional orga, often the media.

[11:31] matt-b> The media relies heavily on the Web...

[11:31] elaineos> why? the perception that uinversal design is a trendy term for 'handicapped design'.

[11:31] matt-b> I saw this during my visit to CNN

[11:32] john-m> Maria Cristina: wouldn't you want to reach the beneficiary community like the leaders of the disability movement?

[11:32] CKlint> we can reach opinion leaders also by norms and standards, such standard rules - an obvious link between elaine and m-c presentations

[11:33] john-m> Maria Cristina: We believe that design for persons with disability, with their input, in fact is good for everyone.

[11:33] matt-b> By building an authoritative Web site, you can link to the mass media, especially the folks at CNN and the BBC worldwide service--and thus to the opinion leaders.

[11:34] elaineos> Maria chris - we do, often. that's another strategy. this is central to our value. anyone doing good universal design is working closely with people with disabilities/ diverse needs.

[11:35] john-m> So, let's summarize a bit: it seems that your objective is to provide a basic set of information on universal design that can be used to influence opinion leaders in the AIA, to provide ammunition to the disability community and to be able to reach a wider audience through the media, by giving them an easy source of information. Is this an accurate summary?

[11:35] elaineos> matt - this helps me focus - the site has to be outstanding in the range of great examples so folks can see this is good design, appealing and good business value not some compliance deal.

[11:35] elaineos> john - yes - good summary.

[11:36] john-m> Cristina, what would you say is the objective that DPI Latin America is pursuing with its site?

[11:36] matt-b> The critical thing is that the site is authoritative so that media will use it and pay attention. It should also be current with frequent updates and some interactive features.

[11:37] elaineos> thanks matt.

[11:38] Santiago> We are now in the process of building the site, and unfortunately I am very unexperienced on that subject. Our site is being built by someone else. But I would say, teh main objective, to reach at the medium or liong term is to coordinate actions among latin america so people can be informed on what is being done in their own countrries. Is that a clear objective?

[11:39] john-m> Who will be the main audience of your site? If it is the regional and national DPI membership and their supporters, it would be a clear objective.

[11:39] matt-b> yes, that is a high priority objective

[11:40] john-m> Maria Cristina: For my site, I have a similar objective, but a focus on the Standard Rules. The idea is to become an authoritative source on the implementation of the Rules.

[11:40] matt-b> Coordination through Internet collaboration is now fairly easy, even for persons who are separated by great distances.

[11:41] Santiago> OK. Yes this is the audience, but I wouyld like to think that the website can be reach by other people who could find alternatives of action in their own countries.

[11:41] john-m> Cristina, that is a good secondary objective. Let me move on to my second topic. Now let's talk about the technological What are the tradeoffs between making a site accessible to all and the kinds of information you can present.

[11:41] CKlint> if the objective is to provide info on s-rules is the vision equalisation of opportunities - a development goal

[11:41] elaineos> Maria, when I first went to the UN rapporteur I found the info overwhelming, hard to focus. can you comment?

[11:43] john-m> Maria Cristina: Yes, but if you break the Rules down into their component parts and express them in less UN language, they are actually quite easy to understand and use, but they need interpretation for a wider audience.

[11:43] elaineos> great - when I saw your objectives I was hoping for this.

[11:43] john-m> Maria Cristina: We tried to do that in our training course for DPI leaders in the Caribbean
[11:44] john-m> Elaine, given the difficulties we have had in bringing people with sight disabilities into the course, would you see any implications for your site?
[11:45] john-m> For example, would you reduce the use of graphics or how would you explain the graphical material?

[11:45] elaineos> A challenge. I've been developing the concept of 'expanded text description' for many of our visual pubs, when we produce in braille or on audio tape. this would be afeature.

[11:46] matt-b> i like the idea of adding audio to the Web sites.
[11:46] matt-b> I tried to do that with my PowerPoint slide show.

[11:46] Santiago> Is that very difficult to do?

[11:47] elaineos> i would not reduce the graphics - i would organize them carefully - and always describe. in fact, description is neded for everyone as good universal design is 'invisible.

[11:47] CKlint> our experience would suggest a minimum need for client side apps, whether java or pdf viewers, these are not accessible. on servier side we focus on low pixels and use of alt tabs to help navigations for all
[11:47] CKlint> graphics summarise they are not a substitute

[11:47] john-m> Cristina, how do you intend to deal with the problem of accessibility for all to your sites, especially the blind. Would you have a technological problem with adding audio to your site?

[11:48] elaineos> it has to work with text descriptions, in alt tags or on the site itself. audio shoud be another option. redundancy of info is needed.

[11:48] CKlint> audio sometimes is stopped by corporate firewalls however

[11:49] Santiago> Well, we have not already got to that point (making it accessible for the blind). And I asm not yet aware oif all techological possibilities

[11:49] matt-b> I agree that redundancy is the key...
[11:49] matt-b> there are a wide range of disabilities and we have to take them all into account through redundancy.

[11:50] john-m> I think Matt has suggested the approach that should be taken. Let me ask another question: do we want to reach an audience that is world-wide? Or is every site thinking only in terms of their own country or region?

[11:50] matt-b> Good question!

[11:50] elaineos> i am thinking international. this is a global opportunity/challenge.

[11:51] john-m> Maria Cristina: For me, the target audience is world-wide. That would take advantage of the Internet's basic feature that it is open to everyone.
[11:51] john-m> Then, what additional factors do we have to take into account when the site is designed? Language? Bandwidth?

[11:51] Santiago> It would be ideal to reach a world wide audience, but I think we should fucus first in our ouwn countries or regions, since the contents should porbably be modified to interest a world wide audience, and as we say in Mexico "el que mucho abaraca, poco aprieta"

[11:52] elaineos> you make me consider agreements with our Japanese, other colleagues to produce translations.

[11:52] john-m> Maria Cristina: Cristina, I think you are right for your site. But for me, it has to be world-wide. I think it depends on the objective that we are seeking in each case.

[11:53] matt-b> The I-Net is global and it is now possible for persons in different time zones and persons who are separted by great distances to collaborate. We need to take advantage of that.

[11:54] Santiago> I thoink we should take it step by step, first build a fully accessible and fully consulted website, and then think of introducing other variables, as languages (or expanding the range of contents)

[11:54] john-m> I agree with Matt, but this will mean that part of planning is to determine the least common denominator of the technology of the audience so that the technology we use does not exclude part of the audience.

[11:54] matt-b> Right now language is a problem, but the Web page translators are improving.

[11:55] elaineos> For me, I would start with an international group ready to work on the translations, to advise on any technology issues. I use international sites frequently.

[11:55] matt-b> Not necessarily the least common denominator...

[11:55] CKlint> that is a good point since we an build for cultural and institutional appropriate content

[11:55] john-m> Since we started at 11:10, can we agree to continue until 12.10 EDT?

[11:56] elaineos> ok

[11:56] matt-b> but different technological levels in the same Web site...the idea of redundancy again.

[11:56] Santiago> I agree with Maria Cristina, it dependa on the objectives of each one of us. OK for the time
[11:57] Santiago> I like the idea of working witj different levels

[11:57] john-m> Let me summarize the second point: In planning, we have to take into account the nature of our audience. In the structure, there should be a minimum accessibility for all, enough redundancy to permit all disabilities to have access and some concern for the languages that are to be used. There should be different levels available within the same site, to permit reaching a more varied audience.

[11:58] CKlint> the basic test for different levels of i-net technology is how does the site read as text only. if you miss something then there is no redundancy and it is not accessible for all

[11:58] Santiago> I agree with CKlint

[11:59] elaineos> clint - you make me think we need a new kind of proof reader!

[11:59] matt-b> Yes, a text only version is essential, but how many Web designers provide that (I do not, for example).

[11:59] CKlint> you have it is a lynx validator in germany; look at leo's accessible internet article at our site at un
[12:00] CKlint> text is essential for low bandwidth countries

[12:00] john-m> Building on what Clint just said, the third topic is how to decide on what information to include. A first point is that all of the content should be available in text, within the html. But then, the question will be, of all the possible information, what do you really need to include?

[12:00] lvaldes> Also, you can turn off text in a standard browser and see what shows behind the graphics.

[12:00] john-m> And how do you decide?

[12:00] lvaldes> sorry, turn off graphics.

[12:01] elaineos> we are planning to integrate our text only site with our basic site - this is recommended by some astute folks.

.

[12:01] Santiago> This is a good point. A probable The way to decide is to stick to the objectives and keep in mind the target audience and its basic need

[12:02] CKlint> claro!

[12:02] john-m> Maria Cristina: I think that Cristina has summarized it well. The test for information is whether it will be useful for the target audience!

[12:03] elaineos> I hope we will discuss evaluation - impact.

[12:03] Santiago> Elaine, this is a key issue, but how can it be done?

[12:03] john-m> Yes, how will you know that your site is working to achieve its objectives?

[12:03] CKlint> info content is a function of corporate or organisational objective and target group needs. you want people to rely upon you as an authoritative site and useful as well; eyeball time and mouse clicks

[12:04] elaineos> there are short and longer term indicators. Matt, John - these are issues I'd like feedback on.

[12:04] CKlint> for instance do you think people need to read full text of some boring un report or simply a targeted summary with a link to the accessible full text or html doc

[12:04] john-m> Maria Cristina: The first thing we need to know is whether anyone used the information. I will start with a counter on my site. But then, I will have to interview in my target audience.

[12:05] matt-b> Feedback is easy if you have an interactive, rather than just a static "top down" Web site.

[12:06] john-m> In advertising, they often use focus groups to predict impact. Chat technology allows us to have focus groups among our target audience. We can also, like Matt says, built interaction into the site itself.

[12:06] CKlint> that message is not part of the chat but an unintended consequene of open source chats

[12:07] matt-b> The users of the site have to become participants in the process of building the site and adding information and different frameworks.

[12:07] elaineos> in the built environment we call this 'user needs design'. or learner centered education or...

[12:08] Santiago> Matt, I think that should be one of the main goals of having a web site. I t is a tool for people tro comunicate,. It can't be done only one way.

[12:08] matt-b> Good concepts!
[12:08] matt-b> I would rather say "collaborate" than "communicate"

[12:08] john-m> We've left a lot of issues open, but we have at least two more opportunities to explore them. For the next session, on information, can I suggest that each of you begin to outline your site. Could you take what you have been sending to Matt and elaborate it somewhat, by indicating categories and structure and providing a few links to other sites. In your presentation, could you indicate in more detail how the site is going to look based on your current...
[12:09] john-m> Chuck will be posting an advance on his session next Tuesday during the next few days.
[12:09] john-m> We've reached our agreed limit. I hope that this has been as useful for you as it has been for me. Any final comments?

[12:10] Santiago> It's been great to be here. I have lots of things to think about...

[12:10] elaineos> very helpful! thanks.

[12:10] matt-b> I'll be in Italy next Tuesday, but I will try to join the chat anyway!

[12:10] CKlint> thanks to all

[12:11] lvaldes> See you in future sessions!

[12:11] john-m> Maria Cristina: I enjoyed it very much, especially that Cristina and Santiago have joined.

[12:11] matt-b> This was useful and well organized session.

[12:11] john-m> Thanks to all. Talk to you next week.

[12:11] matt-b> Bye bye

[12:11] Santiago> OK bye bye

[12:11] elaineos> bye

[12:11] john-m> bye bye

[12:11] CKlint> bye jhn this was great . talk 2u latter gotta hop

[12:12] matt-b> Bye Clint

Session Close: Tue Apr 20 12:12:09 1999

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