Vivian van de Perre | Working for peace in the DR Congo (S11-E5)

 

 

 

[00:00:00] Melissa Fleming

My guest this week works in terrible conflicts. Her business is keeping the peace.

 

[00:00:05] Vivian van de Perre

It's tragic and it's unimaginable, but at the same time, people live their lives and they do the best they can and they remain generous and warm, despite the circumstances that they live in. You go to these places, and you see the worst and you the best and it is all in one package and it is just something that really, really touches you. It's not like a regular job. 

 

[00:00:37] Melissa Fleming

Vivian van de Perre is the deputy head of the UN's peacekeeping mission in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. From the United Nations, I'm Melissa Fleming. This is Awake at Night. Welcome, Vivian. 

 

[00:01:00] Vivian van de Perre

Thank you for having me. 

 

[00:01:01] Melissa Fleming

Thanks. I'm talking to you in Goma, correct? 

 

[00:01:05] Vivian van de Perre

Yes, I am in Goma, which is the provincial capital in North Kivu located in the eastern DRC, which is where the conflict has been occurring and it's the regional hub for the mission. Because our headquarters is located in Kinshasa all the way in the west. It's quite far. It's 2,000 kilometres away. And we are here in a number of locations in the east of which the most significant one is Goma. And yes, I'm here in our offices. We have been here for a while in the eastern Congo, and we have a nice compound, and you must have heard about the recent conflict in the Congo. So, there's some bullet holes here and there but we're comfortable for the time being. 

 

[00:01:52] Melissa Fleming

Okay, so you're in a compound in the very volatile eastern DRC where there's been fighting between government forces and the M23 rebels. You described what the compound is like. I guess it's a secure place, but the rest of the city is not. Can you just describe what it's like there right now. 

 

[00:02:16] Vivian van de Perre

Yes, I call it Goma by day and Goma, by night. By day, it looks relatively well. People go about their business. The markets are open. We're here located at a lake - Lake Kivu. It's quite a spectacular environment. It has a beautiful climate. There's mountains all around us, two active volcanoes who show us their glow of their lava every night. It's a spectacular environment. 

However, as you mentioned, there is an active war going on in the east and the M23 has taken control of Goma. And the way that manifests is particularly at night. So, we have a curfew. Everybody has to be home pretty much after sunset, and it goes all the way to the morning. Because at night there are a lot of house-to-house searches ongoing by M23, who are very well aware that while they conquered Goma, there is still a lot of resistance in pockets in the city of groups of the so-called Wazalendo, which are volunteers that took up arms to defend their homeland in support of the government. When M23 took over, they have been hiding in the city and M23 now at night is trying to track them down, disarm them, and either re-educate them or even worse things happen to them. 

So, Goma by day, if you were to come here, you would think that it's a very nice place. It's very clean ever since the M23 took over. They have put something in place called the salongo, which is on Saturday morning. It's mandatory community service where people are all expected to go out and clean up the city. So, it's a beautiful environment, but what you see is not what you get. 

 

 

 

[00:04:11] Melissa Fleming

Because it certainly wasn't a beautiful environment during the height of the fighting and there was immense human suffering. There was killing, displacement. It was quite a humanitarian crisis. I know you have been on many calls with the Secretary-General and the leadership here in New York describing how dangerous it was and devastating for many people. What have you seen? 

 

 

[00:04:41] Vivian van de Perre

Well, first of all, the conflict in eastern Congo is really decades old. So, it's not a new conflict. The population here has suffered literally for decades and it's time for that to end. But it picked up the pace once again towards the end of last year when M23 started conquering territory in eastern Congo. They have done this before. They took Goma in 2013. And that time they didn't stay very long. Through the political process and through pressure from MONUSCO [United Nations Organization Stabilization Mission in the Democratic Republic of the Congo] at the time, which was already around, they then left Goma. Out of that process they did not get what they wanted. They want root causes addressed as per what they say, and they want the population to be safe and prosperous. And that didn't happen the last time they left Goma. 

So, they have in that decade since, taken up arms again. At the end of last year, they really started to conquer territory in the east. Our mandate is very specific, MONUSCO. We are to support the government’s fight against armed groups. And on 27 January, the M23 took over Goma in a 48-hour battle, which was very, very intense. Many deaths. The number, nobody knows for sure. There were some numbers quoted in the beginning of this battle, but there's very diverging views. But it's definitely a very high number. And as always happens in such conflicts in an urban setting, civilians were also gravely affected. 

Goma had already seen itself surrounded by massive IDP camps before this battle. And after the M23 took Goma, their stance was, 'We are here now. Everything will be calm and quiet, and you can all go home.' So, it is not necessarily a forced return to where they came from, but the IDPs definitely felt under a lot of pressure. So, they started packing up and going home wherever that is. So, the humanitarian situation has definitely been bad for a very long time, and it has deteriorated due to the recent conflict combined with the lack of funding, combined with issues that we're having in this area with access. The fighting is still ongoing really on three fronts - one to the north, one to the west, one to the south. 

 

[00:07:15] Melissa Fleming

UN peacekeeping in this arena plays a very important role. What can UN peacekeeping, MONUSCO, do to help? 

 

[00:07:26] Vivian van de Perre

We have distinct mandates and they're quite separate, but we are an integrated mission. That means that we all work together because the end goal is to alleviate the suffering of the population here in the east. So, we work together as an integrated mission. There is also a distance necessarily that has to be observed at times because MONUSCO, according to his mandate, is in the role of supporting the government in the fight against armed groups. That's a different mandate from the humanitarians. They are there solely to protect the civilians, the civilian population. And they don't have to fight against arm groups. They may be in a position where they have to work with armed groups to get humanitarian aid to the population. So, our mandate and their mandate is quite different. And we necessarily take some distance from each other sometimes. So that we as black UN don't affect blue UN. Are you familiar with those terms? 

 

 

 

[00:08:28] Melissa Fleming

No, black UN and blue UN? I thought you were the Blue Helmets. 

 

[00:08:33] Vivian van de Perre

Yes. Black UN is peacekeeping. It's Chapter 6, Chapter 7 mandates. And blue UN is the humanitarians and the development agencies. And I learned recently why they're called black and blue UN, despite the fact that the black UN wears blue helmets. Which is that on our vehicles we have decals that indicate UN. And the peacekeeping missions have those in black, and the humanitarians and the development agencies have those blue. So, I just learned that after 32 years in the UN. 

 

[00:09:07] Melissa Fleming

I just learned that after also around 30 years in the UN. So, thank you. Thanks for that, Vivian. And how difficult is it for UN peacekeepers to operate under these circumstances? 

 

[00:09:22] Vivian van de Perre

It is very difficult for UN peacekeepers, and it is even more difficult for the population. So, another major component of our mandate is, of course, to do protection of civilians. And for me, that's actually at the heart of our mandate. In the protection of civilians, we are confronted with the suffering of the population. And our job is to try to alleviate that as much as we can while we're not humanitarians. So, what do we do as a peacekeeping mission? We typically conduct patrols. We try to stabilize areas, eliminate security threats in the areas. So, we stabilize. We engage in dialogue. We make sure that the armed groups sit together and talk. 

And we always make sure that the population has a voice in there. Because the civilians are the ones that suffer. The armed groups decide to fight. Civilians are the ones that suffer. So, you can't create peace by just having armed groups talk to each other. You need to hear from the civilians. How does it affect them? What do they want? What do they expect from these warring parties? 

On top of that, as you mentioned, the situation for the peacekeeping mission itself is also very, very difficult. I mentioned earlier that part of our mandate is that we still need to support the government in the fight against armed groups. That led to a situation that the M23 has stated that we are a belligerent. We did fight on the side of the government during the battle of Goma, and they don't hesitate to point that out to us. So, they tell us, 'You have not been objective. You have fought on the side of the government against us.' And I point out to them that that is our mandate. So that's correct. 

So as a result, the M23 has declined so far since the battle of Goma about three and a half months ago, to let us have our freedom of movement. Since they see us as a belligerent. They actually prefer that our troops would not be here because the mandate still stands. We are to fight against armed groups. So, you can understand why they look at it that way. So therefore, our troops have not been able to rotate. 80% of our troops are overdue for rotation. So, they suffer. They also lived through the battle of Goma. We were literally in the crossfire with all our bases. So, there's a lot of trauma that comes with that, even for the military colleagues, including the civilians here. 

So, we have real freedom of movement issues. We are not able to do patrolling right now. That means we can't do active protection of civilians like we normally do in hotspots. We have many colleagues, civilian colleagues that are blocked at the border, that are not allowed entry by M23. Those might be stuck outside in the neighbouring countries waiting to come in, living through a lot of uncertainty. All of this fighting in the east has repercussions on the political situation in Kinshasa. So, we have many colleagues over there and there's also from time-to-time tensions and demonstrations in Kinshasa and security challenges related to that. 

And furthermore, we also have still bases further north that are not under M23 control in Beni, in North Kivu and in Bunia in Ituri. There we're still doing very active protection of civilian mandates per the traditional sense of the word as we are used to from peacekeeping, where we get an alert in, an early warning, and our troops deploy very rapidly. And actually, in Ituri they're at the point where they can deploy within 10 minutes, go to the hotspot, put themselves in between the attackers and the attacked, and thwart potential massacres and consequences for the civilians. 

There are many IDP camps around our bases and the IDPs are very cognizant that many of them are alive because the UN is there. So just to say it's one peacekeeping mission but it has very different manifestations in different parts of the country. And all of us have our challenges. And at the end of the day, we are here to protect the civilian population, which is very difficult if you can't move around like currently the case in Goma. 

 

[00:13:48] Melissa Fleming

Very difficult. I mean, this is, as you said, these are mandates from the Security Council. But yet, if you don't have support of the local forces, including last year, I believe that the Congolese government requested the mission's withdrawal. It said that the mission hadn't done enough to prevent the attacks. So, what do you say to them? 

 

[00:14:14] Vivian van de Perre

They have actually changed that request. They wished for us to leave at that time. And as of 30 June 2024, we did leave the province of South Kivu. And it was a successful disengagement by the mission and a relatively successful transition to the government with lessons learned, which we were going to incorporate in the next phases. 

However, then the M23 started conquering territory. And the government has said, rightfully in my mind, that this is not the time to disengage. The situation is too volatile. Security is very unpredictable, and we need you to stay longer. So, we are ready to engage with them on the future. We engage with them all the time, but the situation is literally changing day by day here in the east with warring parties taking this territory or then maybe having a ceasefire. There are many mediation processes ongoing. From time to time, we have a ceasefire. It might hold for a while and then it doesn't hold. And then they tend to take more territory. So, it changes all the time. It leads to the displacement of population. 

And so, the government, I think wisely has said, 'This is not the time. Let's reconsider once the situation stabilizes a bit, how are we going to do this.' The mission remains ready to disengage. It's very clear. We have been here for a long time. There needs to be a political solution and that will be the only way out of this problem. 

 

 

 

[00:15:46] Melissa Fleming

Yeah, obviously, that's always the ultimate goal, isn't it? That peacekeeping missions are there for a set period of time, and then there's a peaceful transition, and you can depart. But it hasn't yet been the case. And can you...? I mean, it's very easy… And I know as somebody who's in charge of communications, it's often very difficult to say what have peacekeepers achieved in a given place. But what would DRC be like if MONUSCO wasn't there? 

 

[00:16:20] Vivian van de Perre

I can look at it at the macro level and the micro level. At the macro level, it's hard to say because we have had more than three decades of war in the east and MONUSCO has had varying levels of success where we managed to stop fighting and stabilize for it to come back up after and to pop up again. So, as long as the root causes are not addressed, it's going to be hard to maintain peace here. And it's not just the eastern Congo. It is really a regional problem. Like the whole region is somehow involved and has interests here in eastern Congo. So, we have had on the macro level some success, but then overall you can say, but today there's no peace. This is correct. So, I'll leave that as it is. 

On the micro level, I can say, I wish we could count the number of people that we have actually saved and the many lives that we saved and the stability that we have brought during certain periods. And how much more unstable it would have been if we hadn't been there. I know when you visit the IDP camps before they dismantled themselves and you were talking to the IDPs, many, many were crediting their lives to the peacekeepers. And I really pay tribute to all the peacekeepers that have served here over the years. And we have also lost many peacekeepers in that process. And even during the recent battle of Goma, many peacekeepers have sacrificed their lives. And I wish we could count how many people we have saved over the years. 

Even during the battle of Goma, which was 48 hours. Very, very intense. Many people ran to UN bases for protection even from armed forces, even from police. And all of those people that were fighting came running to the UN bases when their lives were under threat. And we actually admit it's somewhere between 2,000 and 3,000. It's hard to tell because people kept coming in and some of them also decided to leave at some point. And we protected in our bases 1,357 for three and a half months. Housed them, kept them safe. Of course, we took their weapons away. So, in time of real crisis and threat of your life, the UN is still the one that's most trusted by everybody to come to. 

 

[00:18:54] Melissa Fleming

And you opened your gates, and you let people come in. Did you just set up tents for them? What did your base and your compound look like? 

 

[00:19:03] Vivian van de Perre

Yeah, it was a bit of a nightmarish scenario. First of all, we have several bases around Goma. Some of them are military, some of them are civilian. Both military and civilian bases had people coming to the gate and it was literally a matter of life and death. So, it goes to your mind like, 'Are we going to let the combatants in with all the risk that entails for our own staff or not?' And then within a split second, you realize if we don't let them in, we'll have a massacre in front of our gate and the UN will have a massacre in front of their gate and did nothing. So, it was not an option. 

We opened the gates more or less, but it was chaos, right? So, I'm telling it calmly, but it was utterly chaotic. And we of course insisted that no weapons would come in. So, they had to dispose of their weapons. We immediately would lock them up in the containers and we let these people in. We're not equipped to house that number of people for large amounts of time. So, we were setting up tarps under which they could sleep out of the rain. We had to set up food, water, etc. Really difficult. Combed through all the protectees as we called them to make sure we would confiscate their phones. Because the M23 was outside the gate and threatening us and saying, 'You are protecting people that tried to kill us, and we're going to come and get them.' So, and we told them, 'Well, we will not open the gate.' Upon which they said, 'Well, then we'll come and get them.' And we said, 'If you come and get them, we will shoot in self-defense.' 

So, there was also a fear on our side that we would lose not only the protectees but even our own staff. So, the staff had to go in the bunkers and wear their protective equipment, and it was quite chaotic. It was quite challenging. There were many moments in which I thought it's very likely that we're going to lose people, not only those who we protect but also our own staff. But that didn't happen. So, it went well in the end. But you don't know that when you're living through it. It was really quite tense. 

And there was literally a battle all around us and bullets were flying, and people can't go to the sanitary facilities in the bunkers. So, if you have to go... If you're in a bunker for 48 hours, you have come out sometimes to visit the restroom and then you had better walk very, very fast with your helmet and your flak jacket because the hardware is flying all over Goma. We had mortar and RPG impacts, etc. It affected military and civilian bases alike. So, we were all in the middle of that. Yeah. And we lost some peacekeepers also. It's not been easy on the staff and I'm very proud of how people stuck together, how they delivered under very difficult circumstances. And I think we literally saved thousands of lives. 

 

[00:22:04] Melissa Fleming

You mentioned that you lost some colleagues and peacekeepers. How did that make you feel? 

 

[00:22:13] Vivian van de Perre

It's tragic. I think over the course of this mission, we lost over 300 in total. Any military or civilian that deploys to a peacekeeping mission deploys because they want to save lives, help contribute to peace. Nobody comes here thinking that they will die in the process. So, it's very, very tragic. And it happens in peacekeeping. 

I mentioned that 80% of our troops are overdue for rotation. So, there are contingents that were supposed to go back in the beginning of or in the middle of January and they're still here. And those are also contingents, that lost people during the battle and even after the battle. So, I can only imagine what the families feel like back home, 'Daddy is coming home. Daddy is coming home a little bit later. Daddy is not coming home anytime soon, and we don't know when daddy's going to come home. Oh, daddy died.' No, it's just... It's heartbreaking. Heartbreaking, and you can't think about it all day long because it will be so demoralizing. You have to keep going. Nobody expects to not come back. 

 

 

 

[00:23:22] Melissa Fleming

What is keeping you awake at night? 

 

[00:23:26] Vivian van de Perre

Oh, what keeps me awake at night, besides what we already talked about - the suffering of the population, the suffering of MONUSCO staff that are stuck here in a very difficult situation with no freedom of movement, no way to rotate in and out. Besides that, what keeps me awake at night is how this conflict is going to evolve and what the solution is. We can't go on for another 30 years like this. It has to end. There's many mediation processes going on. Nothing concrete yet, but some promising signs. But we've been there before, so it's always touch and go. You never know if it's going to work this time or not. We all hope it does. 

In the meantime, since the mission is in such a difficult situation, I have to go back to the mandate a little bit. I told you the mandate is to support the government against armed groups. That armed group here in Goma, the M23, is now in control. They control our movements. They control who comes in and who comes out. They control who rotates. They control if we can get food, if we get fuel, etc. They're fully in control. They're an armed group that took over. We call them the de facto authorities. So, they control us fully. But we are supposed to support the government in the fight against them, and they know that. So, we're in a very difficult situation here, and the clock is ticking for us. 

 

[00:24:52] Melissa Fleming

Meanwhile, also, there has been a huge chunk of funding cut, mostly by the United States, but also several European governments have cut. Are you seeing this already on the ground, the impact? 

 

[00:25:10] Vivian van de Perre

We see it. First of all, the needs are overwhelming here and have been for a long time. And the needs have never been fully met by the funding. And the United States has actually been one of the biggest contributors and has through that aid saved so many lives. So, them diminishing their aid will have a huge impact. And we're seeing the impact already on the ground. But I think it's going to get a lot worse if the funding is going in the direction that we all see it going. I think it will get worse. It's the worst time. Conflicts around the world are picking up, very dreadful ones. So, we all compete for the funding that's left. And the funding is just diminishing, and the needs seem to be growing everywhere. So, I'm very, very pessimistic about this development. 

 

[00:26:02] Melissa Fleming

Yeah, it's really tough because then you have to witness people going hungry or women who have been subject to rape, not able to access services and the health care. I mean, people not being able to get vaccines or treatment. But I wanted to ask you a question, finally, around your current situation. You were speaking a lot about the troops not being able to rotate out. Are you able to go out and see your family and just take a break now and then? 

 

[00:26:37] Vivian van de Perre

It's a hit or miss. We can't predict who can come back in. You can get back out. That's not a problem, but can you get back in? So, I am in a very good situation in terms that because I'm the most senior person here on the ground the de facto authorities realize that they need somebody to talk to. So, I think it doesn't really apply to me as much as to other people. But we don't know. Can you get in? Can you not get in? Some of them get in. Some of them don't get in. There's no rhyme or reason to it. This is really, really tough. And so, yeah, you can go and see your family. But will you ever be able to go back to your job? That's the question. 

 

[00:27:20] Melissa Fleming

You're originally from the Netherlands. Do you ever sit back and think, how did I get here to be sitting in Goma, running the peacekeeping operation there and working for the United Nations? 

 

[00:27:36] Vivian van de Perre

I do. It is something that you can never predict where you're going to end up. It was never even my plan. It just sort of happens. You start your career, and you do what you need to do, and you try to do a good job. And then one day you find yourself being put in a position like this one, which comes with a lot of responsibility. And then you do go and visit your mom in the Netherlands. And she has no idea what I do. And she doesn't really know where I am. I hope she doesn't listen to this interview. You don't tell them too much about it. You don't want them to worry. But in my particular case, my mom is in the Netherlands. My family, my husband and my children are in the US. My husband's family is in the Dominican Republic. So, they're all over the place. I don't really go into too much what I do here, but they do know I work somewhere in Africa, and I do peacekeeping. 

 

 

 

[00:28:29] Melissa Fleming

You worked in the army for 13 years. And I wonder… That was the beginning of your career. I imagine it was kind of unusual to be a woman working in that kind of military environment. What was it like during those years? And then how did you transition from working in the army in the Netherlands to working for the United Nations? 

 

[00:28:52] Vivian van de Perre

Yes, I have to say I went to the military academy in 1985, and it was only the second or the third year that women were fully integrated. So, there were only a few of us and it was relatively new back then. So, it came with its challenges, definitely. And I had quickly decided that there's such a thing as peacekeeping operations and I would love to be part of that. I was young, right? 

And I started working with my army colleagues to see if I could be deployed to a peacekeeping operation. They went from, 'Oh, the UN doesn't take women. Oh, the UN doesn't take people that are young like yourself. The UN doesn't take people with your specific background.' All of that turned out not to be true. 

So eventually I did get an assignment, but it was at UN headquarters. So, I went as a gratis military officer wearing a uniform. Kofi Annan was the head of peacekeeping. And it was all pretty small at that time. So, we had to do everything. I remember I was working on Cambodia, Mozambique all at the same time and I caught the peacekeeping bug. So, after three years as a gratis military officer, I decided that this is what I wanted to do. And I quit the army and then joined peacekeeping. And then subsequently did a number of positions in the UN in and out of peacekeeping pretty much throughout. 

 

[00:30:14] Melissa Fleming

And also serving in Burundi and the Central African Republic, but also in Yemen. Is there a place that particularly marked you that you're especially fond of? 

 

[00:30:28] Vivian van de Perre

Frankly, all of them. Once you live in a country and you interact with the population, and you try to help that population and you immerse yourself in the culture. You don't want to be the foreigner coming in that knows everything better, right? You need to really like absorb the culture. Understand how they live their lives. Why, what is the history and all that. It gets under your skin. So, I would say every country that you are deployed to as a UN staff member, they all get under your skin. So, I would say all of them have a really dear place in my heart. 

 

[00:31:05] Melissa Fleming

I remember traveling around Yemen. This was before things got really bad, but just being so struck by the beauty. And you described also the physical beauty of Goma. Is there something that you can describe about these places that would maybe surprise people who just have no idea? They just see kind of war and conflict and... 

 

 

 

[00:31:29] Vivian van de Perre

Yes, all of them have their immense beauty somehow. And I described Goma before. It literally has the best climate of any place that I know. And it's just absolutely stunningly beautiful at the lake and the volcanoes. And the culture is beautiful. The music. The food. The people somehow seem positive and upbeat despite the very difficult situation here. And they have that in common in all the war places where I have been, that the resilience of people to still live their lives and to be able to smile and see the good. It's everywhere. Even in the worst wars that I have seen. And maybe there's even worse wars and particularly these days out there. 

But a place like Yemen, where I was in a Houthi controlled area in Hodeidah. We were quite cut off and under Houthi control, very similar to being on the M23 control here. And the people had really difficult lives and the poverty and all that. But then when you visit somebody and you show an interest in their existence and their lives and their circumstances, they are so welcoming and so sharing. 

And I think every place that I have been has that in common. And I think that's what people don't see when you see the wars on TV. It's doom and gloom. And it is. It's tragic and it's unimaginable, but at the same time, people live their lives, and they do the best they can, and they remain generous and warm, despite the circumstances that they live in. And I think that's what gets people addicted to the peacekeeping bug. You go to these places, and you see the worst and you see the best and it's all in one package and it is just something that really, really touches you. It's not like a regular job. 

 

[00:33:17] Melissa Fleming

What does it say about human nature that that kind of best of humanity comes out during the worst of times? 

 

[00:33:27] Vivian van de Perre

I think it says that people are very resilient and at the end of the day what everybody wants is to live their life in the best way possible. And before Goma was taken and we had these massive IDP camps here, I would go to them sometimes and just try to talk with some women. And you would ask them like, 'What do you need?' And you expect that they will say, 'A new tent or we need more food, or we need medication, or we need...' They all said one thing. They said, 'We just need peace. We want to go home. We want to live in peace. We want to just live, eat, raise our children and nobody's killing us. And our sons don't have to go off and fight a war. And our daughters are not afraid. We just want to live our lives in peace.' And I think we have that all in common. All humanity has that in common and it doesn't disappear during a war. It stays there. 

 

[00:34:18] Melissa Fleming

It's especially there during a war. I think most of us who live in peace just take it for granted. You said you have two grown children and a husband. How did you balance family life and your work at the UN and in the field? 

 

[00:34:38] Vivian van de Perre

I have to say I've been very lucky, so you can't easily replicate it if you're listening to this and think, 'I'm going to do that.' You have to be a little bit lucky because when I got married and we had our two kids, I actually stayed in headquarters for quite a bit. Also working on peacekeeping and on other things. But I was able to just raise them in the stable environment that New York is. And, by the time my daughter was, I think 15 and my son was 13, I had told them that, 'Once you go to college, I'm going back to the field because that's where my heart lies. That's the work that I like. And headquarters, okay, I'll do my work, and I'll do it well but that's not where I want to be.'  

And then I couldn't. I got an offer to go to Burundi, and it was just such an opportunity. And I discussed it with my family. I said, 'This is the offer. I want to discuss it with you. Can I do it or not?' And we discussed it properly and they encouraged me, and they said, 'This is very cool, and we can talk about it to our friends.' But then [inaudible] the year, right? That was nine years ago. So, it became a little bit longer. So, during their teenage years, I was really in the field. 
And you have this R&R cycle where you can go home and connect with the family, but it's pretty sporadic so you can't come all the time. So, you might go two, three, four times a year. But it also has some advantages. My kids used to say, 'When you were working in New York, you would leave the house before we got up and you would come home after we went to sleep. And you never picked us up from school, never came to the soccer games. And now when you're on R&R, you actually pick us up from school.' So, there's pros and cons. 

It's very difficult. Everybody makes sacrifices to be able to do this job and to do it well. What is the most difficult is if you have dual career couples that then also wish to have children, somebody's going to sacrifice. And it's usually the woman, right? So, I am very blessed with having a husband who decided that he was going to sacrifice for the family and let me do my career. So, I have been very lucky like that. Not everybody is in that position. Not everybody makes the same choices. When I grew up, I remember that the story was that you could have it all as a woman. I don't think you can easily. I think there's a lot of choices that have to be made. And you either need to give up having a family or give up having a very successful career. Or you have to have a partner who is willing to do that because having it all is really difficult. And I know very few people that pulled that one off. 

 

[00:37:21] Melissa Fleming

Yeah, it all doesn't really exist. But what does exist, and I've asked a lot of women and a lot of men during the course of this podcast or just working for UNHCR, how they managed. And I saw just very beautiful and very deep relationships with their children, even though they were gone for long stretches of time. And a lot of pride. The children felt very proud to have a parent who was serving humanity. So, I'm sure your children are proud of you too. And I wonder if they're following in your footsteps at all. 

 

[00:38:01] Vivian van de Perre

First of all, yes. The family is proud, and they have amazing stories to tell to their friends. But then when there is any issue where they want put pressure on you, they say, 'You abandoned us when I was 14.' So, there's also that. You know how teenagers are. My kids are both in the private sector. And I'm very happy with that given how the world is developing right now, because the international multilateral system is not doing too well. And frankly, having been as a female officer in the Dutch army, one of the first that went through that integrated training and having been in peacekeeping and the UN for quite a long time, I said to my children, 'You can do anything you want. I just prefer you don't go into the army, and you don't come work for the UN.' So, they both went to the private sector. 

 

[00:38:52] Melissa Fleming

But again, you're still with the UN. And I wonder how important UN values are, the values and the principles that the UN represents at a time when multilateralism is kind of under attack. 

 

[00:39:08] Vivian van de Perre

For me, it's the be all [and] end all. It's the reason why most of us joined the UN. Things may happen over the course of your career where you lose sight of that. But if it's not about the values, then are the sacrifices worth it? Because there are sacrifices to your personal life. There are sacrifices to your safety, etc. If it's not for the values, what else is worth that? It's not for the money. The money is not bad. We know that. But that's not why you go and risk your life somewhere and live under difficult circumstances. So, it's all about the values for me. And when we get caught… What I mentioned earlier, between the government and the armed groups and the Security Council considering what to do, and pressure, pressure, pressure. And the UN is always caught in the middle. If you don't have those values to hold onto, then I don't think you're going to last very long in a job like this. 

 

[00:40:05] Melissa Fleming

Just finally, I wonder... I can imagine how stressful your job is. And sometimes you might feel isolated. What do you do in your free time just to kind of shut off and relax? 

 

[00:40:21] Vivian van de Perre

What is free time? Can you define that? 

 

[00:40:22] Melissa Fleming

Okay, so you have no free time? That's the answer. I hope you get an hour here and there. 

 

[00:40:30] Vivian van de Perre

Yeah, in a situation like the one we are in, it's seven days a week, it is around the clock. You're lucky if you get a couple of hours of sleep in. And during the crisis you don't get any sleep in for days on end. And it's not only me. It's everybody here, right? So, we're all in it together. So, there is really no free time. You do become a family with your colleagues. You live through these crises together and you... I would say, you bond for life. Like the people that you can really count on in a crisis, you just bond. It's like the same in the military, I would say. They become buddies and peacekeeping is very similar to that. You build friendships for life, and you support each other. 

 

[00:41:17] Melissa Fleming

Well, Vivian, I think you have the support of all of us here in New York headquarters where you once served. And thank you very much for sharing your story and sharing what it's like to be working in Goma and DRC these days. Thank you so much, Vivian. 

 

 

 

[00:41:37] Vivian van de Perre

Thank you very much. 

 

[00:41:37] Melissa Fleming

Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world a better and safer place.

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please take the time to review us. It helps more people to find the show. 

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell, to Adam Paylor and to my colleagues at the UN: Katerina Kitidi, Roberta Politi, Julie James-Poplawski, Eric Justin Balgley, Benji Candelario, Jason Candler, Abby Vardeleon, Alison Corbet, Laura Rodriguez de Castro, Anzhelika Devis, Tulin Battikhi and Bissera Kostova. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier.