Matthias Schmale | Ukraine: 'Heaven and Hell' (S12-E1)

A life-long humanitarian, Matthias Schmale has borne witness to a number of seismic moments in world history. Currently United Nations Resident and Humanitarian Coordinator in Ukraine, he is overseeing efforts to help Ukrainians prepare for a fourth winter at war.

“The longer this lasts, the more the resilience will go down, the more the psychological damage will take hold [...] There are nights where I lie in bed thinking, why can't this nightmare for civilians end?”

Ukrainians have endured four years of hellish conflict that continues to devastate civilian lives and infrastructure, leaving 36 percent of the population in need of aid. In this episode, Matthias Schmale looks back on a long career of humanitarian service, reflects on the deep scars of war and explains why daily life in Kiev can be both heaven and hell.

 

 

 

Multimedia and Transcript

 

[00:00:00] Melissa Fleming

My guest this week works in war torn Ukraine – experiencing what he calls both heaven and hell. And the question that keeps him awake at night is: “When will this end?”

 

[00:00:12] Matthias Schmale 

The longer this lasts, the more the resilience will go down, the more the psychological damage will take hold. So that's really, you know, this has to end. There are nights where I lie in bed thinking, “Oh, gosh, why can't this nightmare for civilians end?”

 

[00:00:38] Melissa Fleming

Matthias Schmale is the UN resident and humanitarian coordinator in Ukraine. From the United Nations, I'm Melissa Fleming. This is Awake at Night. Welcome Matthias.

 

[00:00:59] Matthias Schmale

Thank you very much, Melissa. Good to speak to you.

 

[00:01:01] Melissa Fleming

Are you in Kiev right now?

 

[00:01:03] Matthias Schmale

I am in Kiev. In fact, in the shelter of our building. As you know, there's constant, regular alarms about incoming attacks, and we have basically a bomb shelter. So, we're recording from here.

 

[00:01:19] Melissa Fleming

Well, your bomb shelter has amazing connections, because I can hear you loud and clear, and it actually leads very well into this, into my first question. We're recording this about a year after you arrived in Ukraine, and I want to take you back to your arrival there. I understand that the driver who brought you to Ukraine from Poland told you something you haven't forgotten. What was that?

 

[00:01:47] Matthias Schmale

Indeed, the driver, who is a Ukrainian, said to me as we were crossing the border from Poland, “you will likely experience in Ukraine Heaven and Hell every day together.” And looking back over this year plus, he was right. I didn't quite expect that, and it's something that's difficult to convey if you haven't been here, because on days when there aren't alerts in Kiev, in the main capital City, it's a bustling modern city. Coffee shops, modern restaurants, you can buy anything you need in clothing stores and malls and so on. So, there is that bit of Heaven, as in a perfectly normal life in a very beautiful city with a lot of history, a lot of beautiful buildings. You know, when you walk around, you really feel history, and you're taken by the beauty. Now, in autumn, lots of parks, etc.

But of course, then the sirens go off, and when it's clear that it is bombs targeted or missiles targeted at Kiev, then people run to the shelter, of course. And then all of a sudden, it's hell, it's war.

 

[00:03:03] Melissa Fleming

What was the circumstance that made you go down to the bomb shelter within the UN compound?

 

[00:03:09] Matthias Schmale

So, it is one of those alarms. That's another fascinating side here. There's a lot of technology at play, a lot of social media channels. And, in year four of this, sadly, they have perfected the art of conveying messages on where the bombs are coming from, or the missiles, and where they're heading. And I've been in meetings with Ukrainian interlocutors from Ukrainian NGOs, or sometimes government, who, they look at their mobile phone when the alarms go off. And I was in one meeting, I remember distinctly. They looked at this and they said, “Oh, we can stay. This is just some missile that's heading somewhere else.” I think they actually said it's just a draw.

 

[00:03:57] Melissa Fleming

It feels like it's kind of become part of daily life, in a way. People have just, rather feeling constantly anxious, they’ve adapted somehow to this threat?

 

[00:04:12] Matthias Schmale

I mean, yes, in a way. Melissa, you know, in year four, sadly, going to year five soon, you cope with sirens, alarms, and actual attacks. Now, having said that, you know, there's been many a day where I go to the office in the morning after a night of terror, and you can feel it with colleagues, especially Ukrainian colleagues, you know, who were at home with their loved ones, left their family and kids at home to come to work. A few hours later, you see the fatigue, and you see the worry.

I, just this afternoon, I've come from a meeting of the so-called Ukraine Women's Congress – you know, women play an incredibly important role. And I said to them, as I increasingly say, “I don't think we should romanticize resilience.” I see strength, especially also along the front line. The way the Ukrainian civilian population is coping with this is really pretty impressive. They are strong. They are resilient, but we shouldn't romanticize that. After four years of this, I think the psychological impact is deep and will take a couple of generations, like in other wars, to heal.

So, you know, while I've seen people, when sirens go off, stay in cafes, outdoors, and continue sipping their coffee. But, I've also seen when there's some bang – you know, it could be from the street, some car making noise – people jump, you know. So, of course, this leaves no one unaffected. Colleagues, international colleagues, always say when they go out, it takes a few days to get used to that bit of, you know, not normal life. So, I don't want to myself. I want to follow my own advice. It's heaven and hell. But of course, it's not in summary, the life anyone should live.

 

 

[00:06:08] Melissa Fleming

No, I mean, I can only imagine what it must be like for kids, and also parents just worried about their kids. The mental health challenges must be huge.

 

[00:06:20] Matthias Schmale

So, if I may, on that one, Melissa, I was in Kharkiv yesterday, and I don't know if you heard about the kindergarten that was bombed there. I was actually having an event at university with university students underground. Lo and behold, there was an attack. We didn't hear it because we were safe underground. But then someone came and said, “Listen, are you aware that a kindergarten 10 minutes from here has just been bombed?” So, of course, we went there after the event was over. And I must say, that was a particularly poignant moment, even though no child – there were 48 children in that kindergarten when it was hit – no child was injured or killed, because they went to safety, fortunately.

But, I spoke to a mother, remarkable woman, who had dropped her child there in the morning. Two hours later, she gets called and says, “The kindergarten has just been struck three times by a Shahed, please come and get your child, they are safe, but please.” And she ran out – she's a humanitarian worker – she ran out of a meeting which colleagues were with her, in tears of course, trying to make sure her child's okay. And then when I arrived there, she was back at the site. She took her child home and to safety. She was back at the site as part of the humanitarian action to clean the site. The emotional stress of this is unbelievable, and I really, I can't, for the life of it, understand why anyone thinks it's justified to bomb a place that is where children are supposed to be safe. No civilian should be harmed, but children, that just underscores the terror of this.

 

[00:08:00] Melissa Fleming

It is unfathomable to imagine. I know you have so many stories, because as part of your job you do venture out of the capital very often. I understand you met, on a recent trip to Mykolaiv Oblast, you met an older man, and you've spoken about that. What happened there?

 

[00:08:23] Matthias Schmale

Indeed, a remarkable story of this man. His village and surrounding villages were occupied in 2022 by the Russian forces for a couple of months, and he stayed throughout that. So, he lived through a couple of months of occupation. His wife left, and then came back when it was, as the Ukrainians call it, de-occupied. A few months later, they stayed. They tried to rebuild their life. Their house was, in one attack, severely damaged. So, with the support of the UN – UNHCR – and others, they rebuilt or repaired their house, a very beautiful vegetable garden they showed me, etc.

And as we were standing there talking about the story of resilience, he then recalled that his brother was killed in 2022 in a strike and he got completely lost control of his emotions. He started crying and left the room. He could not continue the conversation. So, you know, it's that was one of the examples that makes me say, “Let's not romanticize resilience.” You know, he is a strong man, a strong couple. They've lived through occupation. They've rebuilt their life in some way, but the scar of his brother being killed three, four years ago, sits deep and will take time to heal, if ever.

 

[00:09:48] Melissa Fleming

I'm sure he's representative of much of the population in Ukraine. I mean, most people have some relative, some friend, who has lost their life.

 

[00:09:59] Matthias Schmale

And with 14,000 people killed, we have a fantastic human rights team here – Volker Türk’s group of 60, 70 people – and a big part of their job is documenting what they perceive as possible war crimes and also verifying numbers. So, the numbers we use are really verified. It's evidence. They say that more than 14,000 civilians are dead, and if I remember correctly, 40, 50,000 civilians injured.

And that that means, indeed, as you suggest, you hardly meet anyone who's not had someone in the family affected, either killed or injured. You then have 6, 7 million, at least, refugees, Ukrainians, living abroad. And that creates its own tensions, you know, between those who are in perceived safety abroad and those who stay behind. That’s part of war too. You know that loved ones may have left, and you wonder whether you'll ever see them again.

 

[00:11:04] Melissa Fleming

Absolutely. I met some refugees in some European countries who are generously hosting them. Most, it seems, are women and children, and they don't really feel relief, because they're constantly worried about their husbands, their sons, their fathers and other friends and family back home, and long for the day when they can return in peace. I hope that day comes soon. Are you hopeful?

 

[00:11:33] Matthias Schmale

Yeah, that's a good question. I have to say, earlier this year, with arrival of President Trump in the White House for his second term, there was a sense of cautious optimism here in Ukraine. Not just among the Ukraine leadership, but also the international community, including the UN, myself. We were cautiously optimistic. We were not saying this is going to happen within two days, or whatever President Trump promised, but there was a sense of maybe he'll just pull this off.

And of course, 10 months later, it's gotten worse, and that optimism is gone right now. Most people I speak to, and I agree with that. From, you know, especially my many trips along the front line, where the pressure from Russian forces on the ground is really enormous. I think we are in this for the longer haul, unfortunately.

 

[00:12:36] Melissa Fleming

Part of what you spoke about, Russian forces striking a kindergarten. There had been other civilian targets that have been shocking. Some of those targets also include energy infrastructure. And you know, we're approaching winter in Ukraine, and winter in Ukraine is bitterly cold. How is Ukraine coping with that and what can the UN do to help Ukrainians stay warm during the winter?

 

[00:13:06] Matthias Schmale

So there's a couple of things we've done now, sadly, through three winters and preparing for a fourth one. And that is with the humanitarian funds. We've had the humanitarian actors – including ten UN agencies – have been running winterization programs, a lot of which is giving people, mostly near the front line in rural areas, so-called solid fuel, wood to keep their stoves, and sometimes cash to buy fuel or electricity.

The key worry now, we had that worry last winter, and now it's back, and with more concern, really, because in recent weeks, indeed, the Russians seem to have intensified their attacks on energy. And not just energy production sites, also energy distribution installations. Now, the authorities are increasingly worried that whole cities may be cut off from heating and water. We had a smaller town of 40,000 inhabitants in northeast Ukraine, in Sumy region, which is close to Kursk, where the authorities were so worried after four or five days of no electricity and heating that they were considering evacuating the whole population of 40,000. Now, there's big cities of several million near the front line, like Kharkiv, where I was yesterday. That's the nightmare scenario.

 

 

[00:14:35] Melissa Fleming

So people actually fleeing cold?

 

[00:14:38] Matthias Schmale

Yeah, that's a real possibility.

 

[00:14:41] Melissa Fleming

Four years into the war in Ukraine, have you noticed a lessening of willingness to support aid operations, to fund help to civilians who are suffering in Ukraine from this war?

 

[00:14:59] Matthias Schmale

Yes, for sure. We have been, overall, so far, a very well-funded humanitarian operation. Back in ‘22 when this started, the international community mobilized more than $4 billion humanitarian aid, that's huge. In ‘23 it was still $2.6, and last year, still $2.2. This year, we'll struggle to get to $1.5, so it's a declining trend. But I also say, you know, I don't say that too publicly, because I don't want to create the impression that we don't need more resources. We do. But given everything else that's going on around the world, including funding for other desperate places like Sudan, I often say we are the least underfunded operation.

 

[00:15:49] Melissa Fleming

Is there something that you've seen that has deeply saddened you? I mean, you've told a whole bunch of stories that are quite devastating. But is there one that you can recall that you just can't get out of your head?

 

[00:16:05] Matthias Schmale

Yeah, one which is sort of a bit ambivalent, because it has a positive side to it. So, on one of my last visits to Kherson in the South, that is on the front line. The governor told me, “There is daily shelling here. In 2025, we've not had one day without an attack and constant drone attack.” The Ukrainians refer to Kherson as the “drone safari” because they are convinced the Russians are testing new drone equipment there, because they're just on the other side of the river in, you know, quite strong positions there.

And there really is constant shelling. In the last time or second last time I was there, I was saddened, because it felt more deserted than ever. You know, traveling through the city you hardly saw people, hardly saw signs of life. But then they took us underground. So, above ground, desolation, damage, war, and in its fullest sense. Then they took us underground to an EU-financed maternity ward, and WHO colleagues were also involved. And that was bizarre. I cannot get this out of my head again, this heaven and hell contrast. Above ground, hell and without any exception – you know, not like Kiev, with moments of heaven. And then underground, they give, they help women give birth to new life and proudly talked about that, you know.

I've seen a lot, but that was particularly touching somehow, because it speaks to both the destruction and then the determination not to give up and to, in fact, create new life. I've been in situations where women have said, I'm not going to give birth in while my country's at war, perfectly understandable.

 

[00:18:00] Melissa Fleming

There was this situation in a bookshop that I read about. Can you describe that?

 

[00:18:07] Matthias Schmale

Yeah, I think that was Kherson again. So, this guy is an artist. He runs a cafe. The artist painted Kherson with bright, sunny colors, different scenes from his native city. And when I asked him, you know, “Why aren't you painting the desolation that you are experiencing all around you?” He said, “Because I want to keep my hope for a better future, and my way of doing that is to paint my city in great colors. If we lose this, then at least there will be the memory of that. That of what it once was. But I hope we will once again experience it.” And this guy has stayed, and his cafe is open. Not many people come. He was delighted to see 10 UN workers walking to his cafe. Again, I think it's one you experience in any war, I think, but very surreal moments like that.

 

[00:19:08] Melissa Fleming

I mean, as Resident Coordinator, Humanitarian Coordinator in Ukraine, what are you most proud of that the UN does to help the people of Ukraine?

 

[00:19:18] Matthias Schmale

So when I travel, in particular near the front line, I think I've met countless, especially older people and people with limited mobility, who've chosen for different reasons to stay near danger – you know, attachment to land and so on, lack of alternatives – who are incredibly grateful for the interagency convoys that the UN keeps running with NGOs into the frontline area. So, very practical direct support: food, water, clothes, non-food items. And, we all, as UN, we have almost 3,000 personnel still in country. Those of us who have the privilege to get out and see some of this work, you hear lots of stories of gratitude for that.

Then I've been to plenty of sites where a few hours later, there is clean up and, you know, windows under the impact – the blast impacts – windows get destroyed, and by evening, the windows are repaired, again by NGOs and with UN support. So, that is a sense of pride that people feel now after the terror of an attack, they get help. They get psychological support, legal services. Of course, people who flee from the front line or who have their house destroyed, often lose their papers. So, it's not just about food and material support. It's also legal advice for them to get their papers back.

And then maybe another bit is, I have been to a couple of underground schools in Zaporizhzhia, for example, that, again, is 30 kilometers from the front line, currently. The governor there has driven the building of completely new underground schools. So, in the middle of war, no child should ever be forced to learn underground, but the fact that they have nine schools opening – or opened – and I think he said 70% of the children that are left now, at least a couple of hours a week, have the possibility to meet other children in person and to learn properly in a state of the art school. And I think as UN, UNICEF is involved, IOM, a few others, that's something we can be very proud of. It's education in emergencies, in action, basically.

 

 

[00:21:50] Melissa Fleming

What is keeping you most awake at night when you think about the situation Ukraine?

 

[00:21:57] Matthias Schmale

It is, of course, some of the images of destroyed kindergartens, of people crying when they recall our loved ones were killed. The key, really for me, what keeps me up awake at night, Ukraine specific is, when will this end? You know, this sense of endlessness. And that that's a real worry, because the longer this lasts the more the resilience will go down, the more the psychological damage will take hold. So, that's really, you know, this has to end. And there are nights where I lie in bed thinking, “Oh, gosh, why can't this nightmare for civilians end?” That's one bit.

The other bit is to stay relevant as UN. As you know better than anyone, we're 80 this year. Multilateralism, I think, is under serious attack. You know, I think we can never rest on our laurels the successes I've described. Every day brings new challenges, like the energy one we talked about. So, I worry, as Resident Coordinator about, how do we ensure that we build on the success and stay relevant?

 

[00:23:15] Melissa Fleming Well, I mean, I wonder about what the Ukrainian people think, because the United Nations was created 80 years ago to save the world from the scourge of war, war that was happening also in Ukraine. Here we are, 80 years later, and many people, very simplistically say, well, the UN was unable to prevent the war. Do they understand how the UN functions and why this war wasn't stopped?

 

[00:23:52] Matthias Schmale

I don't remember if I mentioned already that I met with 100 students or so in Kharkiv University, which is one of the oldest Universities in Ukraine, I think the second oldest. It has survived as an institution two world wars and is now surviving another war. And of course, some of these young, bright students asked me, “Why did the UN not prevent this, and what is it doing to end it?” And we got into quite a deep conversation. I tried to explain to them that, from my point of view, the UN is two things. It's the Member States and work through the General Assembly, Security Council, etc. And then there's the civil service that you and I represent, and the colleagues that were with me. And I said, “I hope that you can see on the ground the civil service being on at your site trying to support you in addressing humanitarian needs and recovery needs, etc.” And they said, “No, absolutely. You know, we value that, we appreciate that.”

And then we got into a long discussion. You know, they appreciate it when I said the General Assembly is like a world parliament. It's the Member States. But of course, inevitably, the question came, you know, the country that we feel is the aggressor has invaded our country, why does it sit on the Security Council with veto, right? If all truth be told is, I struggled a bit with that because I have sympathy for young people saying, if you want to stay relevant for us around the origin of the UN which is making peace and maintaining it, then we have to find a way of making the UN more relevant again. And, I was pleased that I could say the Pact of the Future foresees reforms of the Security Council and the General Assembly, etc. And so I think, you know, they said, okay, fine. You know, I wasn't defensive. I didn't say, you don't see it, right? I said, you have good points, and led by the SG, we're trying to make sure the UN does get reformed in the right way. Then ultimately, it's up to the Member States.

 

 

[00:26:13] Melissa Fleming

You know, preparing for this interview, and looking at your bio, I was just really struck that you spent a number of years working for UNRWA – the agency supporting Palestinians – and that has become very well-known because of its work in Gaza, especially during the last two years in this horrific war. The agency does support Palestinians in Lebanon, Syria, but you were Director of Operations in Gaza, and at that time, you were responsible for delivering food supplies, among other things. I'm going to start by asking you, how does it feel, make you feel to see this kind of mass hunger and even starvation happening?

 

[00:27:06] Matthias Schmale

Most of the time it’s shock and horror that this happens in our time, and mainly because it's man made. You know there does not have to be famine in Gaza and UNRWA had a big part of it. There were food shortages, but in my time, we had a program feeding almost a million, more than a million out of the 1.4 million refugees registered with UNRWA, and no one had to go hungry or risk, you know, dying of hunger. So, two years later see these very well founded warmings warnings of a famine about to set in is unbelievable. And it really, I think it has to do with a blockade. Food should never be a weapon of war. And in this case, that's, I think that's the sole explanation, and I think our leadership has named it as such.

 

[00:28:08] Melissa Fleming

UNRWA has constantly been accused, mostly by Israel, of being biased and running a curricula that is anti-Israel. What do you say to those accusations?

 

[00:28:24] Matthias Schmale

So the first thing is that there were always misunderstandings that UNRWA had its own curriculum, which is not true. We used the curriculum of the PA, the Palestinian Authority. We did not want to create something foreign. We wanted to liaise with the local authorities. In the case of Gaza, not Hamas, but the PA – Palestinian Authority. So that's the first thing.

Then secondly, we had a very robust system at Headquarters in Amman, the Education Department, of screening the curriculum, the books, the schoolbooks that the PA gave out for problematic issues such as anti-Zionism or call to hatred and violence. And I must say, when I was in Gaza for almost four years, I visited schools almost every week, and I did not find any evidence of systematic, in any way, teachers not respecting that they were working for the UN which comes with norms and values. And you know, if you then look, the World Bank, in my time, gave out a study that confirmed that in Gaza and the West Bend, the UNRWA schools were above the standard of the other local schools, far, by far above. Good education and right values. I would defend that to today.

 

[00:29:49] Melissa Fleming

And then, of course, all of the killings of civilians numbering at least 65,000. So many injured. I just mean for us, I've never been to Gaza, but the images that we produce, the colleagues that serve there, and I just wanted to ask you, because many of your former colleagues have been killed. How does that, how does that affect you?

 

[00:30:23] Matthias Schmale

You know, it's number wise. It's more than 300, what I've heard the last. Yeah, how does one, how does that affect one? I don't know if you have experienced, Melissa, at some point, numbers become meaningless. Now in a way, the bigger the number, the more numb you get. And so, what affects me more than the numbers is individual stories. It's not, no UN staff member should be killed. And if anyone did anything wrong, like the accusation that some were involved in the October 7 atrocities, then that will be dealt with. We had a robust system to deal with, you know, behavior that was not tolerable, including firing people. But these were, in my experience of almost four years, all the UNRWA colleagues I met the countless – I didn't meet all 13,000, obviously, but many of them, during my frequent travel to schools and so on, I experienced them as really decent, committed civil servants like you and I, and it is an absolute horror that so many of them are no more.

 

[00:31:42] Melissa Fleming

I understand that you left the position of Director of Operations in Gaza early. And it's an absolute minefield to communicate. It has been. It's even worse now. But you did an interview on Israeli TV that had a kind of backlash, you know. What happened?

 

[00:32:04] Matthias Schmale

So, I think part of the context is that, in my memory, the 2021 war was the first time the Israelis did not let international media into Gaza while the war was going on. So, I became sort of the spokesperson, the go-to international spokesperson for international media. I think I did 70 interviews with BBC, CNN and so on over the 11 days. And you know, there was already at that time, heroic Palestinian journalists that gave the perspective of the Palestinians themselves, and I was the international go-to person.

The day after it ended, the Israeli television wanted an interview, and I, you know, that was not my best interview. I was really tired. I should probably, with the benefit of hindsight, not done that. I was asked how I experienced the strikes of the Israelis, and I said something along the lines of: I experienced them as pretty targeted. And what I had in mind is, for example, in Jabalia camp, we visited a house that morning, when I gave the interview, before I gave it. You know, densely populated, you could hardly see a centimeter between houses where the Israelis took out one house because they suspected a Hamas operative in there. I think I said in the interview there were six children in that house, no operative, six children – four of which went to UNRWA schools. But it was a targeted strike, a precise strike into the middle of a refugee camp. I also remembered, just opposite our UNRWA Headquarters, a high rise building where they took out an apartment in the middle of the building with precision. And you know when you then hear of some of the things the Israeli military has done over the last two years, not just in Gaza but Lebanon, you know, they are capable of very precise strikes. So that's what I was trying to describe.

Unfortunately, there were then Palestinian groupings that felt I was justifying what the Israelis were doing, because the Israelis said, even the UNRWA director says we were targeting, we weren't trying to kill civilians, you know, and I did say, for me, it's a nightmare and not justifiable that 60 children going to UNRWA schools were killed in those 11 days. And I was not at all trying to justify the killing of children. I was merely responding to the question of, “Were these strikes precise?” Anyway, because the emotions are, understandably, after 11 days of war, 60 children dead, 500, no, 2000 people killed in those 11 days, I understood the emotions, you know. I apologized for misunderstandings that, you know, I tried to clarify that this was not my intention to justify any military action. But it was too late. The emotions were too raw. And, you know, I had been there almost four years. So, Philippe Lazzarini, at the time, advised that I should leave the strip and, you know, let someone else take over, and with a fresh perspective.

 

[00:35:26] Melissa Fleming

I wonder how you got into all of this in the first place. How did you come to the UN? I believe, you worked, you had a life before you joined the UN.

 

 

[00:35:37] Matthias Schmale

Yes, yeah. Most of my professional life before the UN was with the International Red Cross, Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies. No, and we often, well, I should maybe say I'm a missionary kid. So, my father was a missionary in Botswana, and where I was born, and then we lived for five years in Botswana on a small, remote mission station, and then 10 years in South Africa in apartheid days. So, I think something got into my blood there around, you know, oppression, people not experiencing justice, as you know, Gaza in Palestine is often compared to the apartheid days, for good reasons, I think so there.

There was something there from my experience in South Africa that sensitized me to those kinds of contexts that I always found interesting and was clear to me I wanted – my parents then moved us back, not back, it when I was 15 – we moved to Germany, but I wanted to go back to Africa and be in international work. So, initially I went with the Red Cross to Sudan, when it was one country still, and that, it was really the childhood dream of going back to the continent where I was born and grew up, and making a difference, giving something back. That's how I got into this.

At some point I ended up in Geneva, in the senior management team of the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies. And as I was approaching 50 or so, I thought, you know, I've talked with my wife about, do I want to stay in headquarters and sort of get stuck here, or do I go back to the field? And I have a very tolerant family, including her, who we agreed I could try something like UNRWA, and I ended up with UNRWA in Lebanon.

 

[00:37:27] Melissa Fleming

She must be very tolerant. But as I, as I have worked with so many humanitarians across the years, I've realized that once you've tasted the gratification of serving people who are in most need, it's very difficult to go back to headquarters and be that many steps away. But I just I'm struck that you mentioned that you had part of your childhood in apartheid South Africa. Can you just describe what was happening when you were there, at what ages?

 

[00:38:04] Matthias Schmale

So I was there, we moved when I was five to South Africa and left when I was 15. So, it was 10 years. Now, the honest truth, Melissa, is it was an apartheid state. I did not have any black friends, children, my age, because everything was segregated. We lived in a white part of Johannesburg, white only. Schools were segregated. So, I didn't really consciously as a child experience the oppression or the apartheid regime's negative impact on the black population, because I was not exposed to that.

What I think exposed me a bit, my father was a Lutheran priest who worked, and at that time, because the ANC was banned – the African National Congress – there was no tolerated political opposition. So, the churches became the opposition, you know, and my father worked with people like Desmond Tutu and people like him occasionally showed up in our home for dinner or something. So, there was this sort of sense of something's wrong here from conversation – all conversations I overheard from adults that I cannot claim I experienced firsthand the oppression in that sense. I was exposed to it through the work of my father.

 

[00:39:27] Melissa Fleming

Well, anyone who's met Desmond Tutu, I think, would always be influenced and marked by his incredible energy and bright smile, and want to know more about what he was struggling for.

 

[00:39:43] Matthias Schmale

You've met him?

 

[00:39:45] Melissa Fleming

Yes, yes. I have.

 

[00:39:48] Matthias Schmale

Yeah, an incredible man. I really, exactly as you say, you know, I've met few people who've experienced what he'd experienced, and stayed so positive. And not only that, not shy to criticize also. Then when Mandela and team got to power, you know, there was a tense period between him and Mandela. They both left this life as friends, I know, but, because Tutu was always outspoken, he was committed firmly to principles. And I think for many of us, including those of us in the UN, he has stayed an inspiration that way, and he is a living example of staying on the right side of history.

 

[00:40:34] Melissa Fleming

Speaking of history, you move back to Germany just in time to witness the fall of the Berlin Wall. What did you experience then? And it was your first time living in Germany as a German?

 

[00:40:48] Matthias Schmale

Yes, yeah, it was strange. So, we moved to the western part of Berlin. And you know, there are moments, I think all of us, I'm sure you will have them, where we remember exactly where we were when that happened. So I remember I was in a subway on my way to – I was doing an apprenticeship in a company -  when people started talking about, have you heard the wall is falling down, is open. And, you know, I remember sitting in that train and then getting to work, and everyone was glued to the radio. And indeed, you know, the thousands of East Berliners started coming across the wall.

So immediately after our shift, we were all out there, you know. And I remember all of us chiseling away at the wall. An incredible moment of history. I don't think I fully understood, you know, the larger political implications. But having lived in a divided city in the western part of it, and experiencing how all of a sudden, the wall that I did cross a couple of times to visit friends in East Germany, and you know that, really, the way that was managed reminded me of getting in and out of Gaza. You know, a really, very controlled way of crossing a border. And for that to be gone, that was really a fantastic life-giving moment, I think.

 

[00:42:16] Melissa Fleming

It shows how what you believe to be a constant, can change in an instant. You mentioned that you have a very tolerant wife. I wonder if you have children.

 

[00:42:29] Matthias Schmale

I have three boys who are now all in their 20s.

 

[00:42:34] Melissa Fleming

Well, I'm sure they're very proud of you and the values you've instilled in the places that you've served and all the people that you've helped. So, thank you so much, Matthias, for joining me for Awake at Night and for talking to us about your incredible life story.

 

[00:42:53] Matthias Schmale

Thank you very much for this opportunity. It's been a very interesting experience to review one's life like this. Thank you very much.

 

[00:43:04] Melissa Fleming

Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world a better and more peaceful place.

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please take the time to review us. It helps more people to find the show. 

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell, to Adam Paylor and to my colleagues at the UN: Katerina Kitidi, Roberta Politi, Julie James-Poplawski, Eric Justin Balgley, Benji Candelario, Jason Candler, Abby Vardeleon, Alison Corbet, Laura Rodriguez de Castro, Anzhelika Devis, Tulin Battikhi and Bissera Kostova. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier.