Filippo Grandi | A lifetime championing refugees (S12-E3)

[00:00:00] Melissa Fleming

This week, I'm doing something I have not done before on this podcast. I'm interviewing someone for the second time because of the remarkable work he's done for refugees since we last spoke together, and because he's about to leave the UN.

 

[00:00:15] Filippo Grandi

Home means your house, your family, your friends, your work, your school. And it is fantastic when, like in Syria, people can go back to their homes. This is what most refugees want.

 

[00:00:39] Melissa Fleming

Filippo Grandi is the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. From the United Nations, I'm Melissa Fleming. This is Awake at Night. Welcome Filippo.

 

[00:00:59] Filippo Grandi

Thank you very much, Melissa, I'm very honored to be interviewed again for this great podcast.

 

[00:01:06] Melissa Fleming

You know, I'm very nostalgic, because this podcast started here in this very building at UNHCR, when I was working here with you.

 

[00:01:14] Filippo Grandi

I remember very well and what a history, this podcast. It's really become an important picture for the United Nations.

 

[00:01:22] Melissa Fleming

Thank you. Filippo, you've dedicated your life to helping refugees. You've been at UNHCR, the UN Refugee Agency, for more than 30 years – and that is where we worked together – and you've also led UNHCR since 2016. You moved, you know, from a Junior Officer up to become the High Commissioner for Refugees. How do you feel now that you're preparing to step down?

 

[00:01:49] Filippo Grandi

This is a question I'm being frequently asked these days, as you can imagine, Melissa. First of all, let me say, this is, I don't know if this is the end, but it is certainly a very significant point in a long career. I started working in humanitarian situations well before that, 42 years ago almost. My first job was being a volunteer at the Thai-Cambodian border, working for an American NGO. And so, there is quite a trajectory there. I also, it is true also that I have worked with refugees for many of these years, but I've also worked in other situations.

I like to think of my pathway. My career is not a word I like very much, but of my working life as a life devoted to dealing with crisis – and crisis that have impacted people. So my job was not to try to solve the politics of the crisis, but has always been trying to lighten the burden of this crisis on people, make their lives a bit easier amidst the suffering and the misery, and try to find solutions for them. Then, of course, all of this is in the midst of political situations. So we – I and my colleagues – had to get involved in that. But my pride after all these years is that the center of this effort, of my lifetime effort, has been on people. And especially on the people that suffer most in the world, including the refugees.

 

 

[00:03:31] Melissa Fleming

Yeah. I mean helping those people, though, is inevitably very political. You need political solutions. I know I've traveled with you many times, and you go to a refugee camp on one day, and maybe in the evening or on the next day, you're meeting with the head of state and trying to negotiate for more space or more protection for those refugees.

 

[00:03:57] Filippo Grandi

UNHCR’s work is one of the most fascinating in the international system, because, like I said, it is very humanitarian. You help people, but at the same time you do that in a zone that is very close to politics. So, I often say that UNHCR is an incredible vantage point, viewpoint, on the world today, on the current world. Not one where you negotiate peace or disarmament or big economic deals. A little bit on the side, but what an important viewpoint it is. It is the viewpoint of the people that are impacted by the decisions made in the center. And I think that is really the privilege of working for this organization and of working with the refugees.

 

[00:04:55] Melissa Fleming

Yeah, the number of refugees has hugely increased in recent years. I mean, massively. Almost doubled in the last decade. Why is that? What's going wrong?

 

[00:05:07] Filippo Grandi

I want to say something bad and something good about figures. It's true, you're right. When I started, if I recall, we counted about 60, 65 million refugees were displaced, and this figure has almost doubled. And the explanation, unfortunately, is quite obvious. I've said this for 10 years, but let me say it once again, we have become a world incapable of making peace, incapable of stopping conflicts, of putting countries back on the roadway to – on the pathway to peace, to reconstruction, to reconciliation. It has become so rare that we have those political solutions emerging from the international debate.

Look at the Security Council constantly paralyzed on the smallest issues, including humanitarian issues. So really, it's a shameful performance by the international community. Especially, if I may say, by the big countries who have a big voice and the resources to influence this debate and are so divided and always at odds with each other – competing instead of cooperating. That's the reason why we have so many conflicts emerging and old ones not being resolved. And this accumulation of wars creates a lot of displacement. Then you have other complications, climate change, for example. And the not very encouraging trajectory of that debate is also discouraging, from that point of view. Climate change is a big driver of both conflict and displacement, so that's why we need to pay attention to that as well.

But I want to say one positive thing quickly. This year, just a few days ago, we've issued our latest figures, and for the first time in 10 years, they've slightly gone down. Now there are explanations for that. It still is a huge figure – 117 million – but it has gone down for mostly two reasons, one is not so good and one is positive.

The not so good is that many Afghans that were counted in these populations, in Iran and Pakistan, were sent back, forcibly to Afghanistan in the last few months. It's a very complex situation, but it has contributed, may I say not so positively, to this decrease. But the biggest decrease has happened in Syria, where you have 1 million people that voluntarily went back from neighboring countries since the fall of the Assad regime, and more than 2 million people that have gone back from within the country. Now the Syria situation is positive, we should look at it, and we should also link it to an obvious thing. If a situation changes, if conflict decreases, if human rights violations disappear, people go back – in large numbers. Even if Syria is still very fragile, there's a strong message that they're sending us there.

 

 

[00:08:24] Melissa Fleming

Your eyes kind of brightened up when you talked about Syria. I'd love you to talk a little bit about that feeling that you had when you started seeing refugees go back. But first, what does peace mean to you?

 

[00:08:37] Filippo Grandi

Peace means the possibility for people that had lost hope to work on their future again. War has many bad sides, of course, killing, destroying, depriving, you name it. One of the biggest human impacts of war – or the absence of peace one should say – is depriving people of their hope for any future.

And the best thing that you see when peace takes hold – real peace, because there's many “half peaces” these days – but [when] real peace takes hold is that people hope again. But here maybe we should qualify a bit. Peace is very complex in today's world. In the past, peace was a treaty between states that put an end to war. Today is more complex. You get there through tortuous ways. It may not be peace all at once. Syria is not peace all at once – there's still pockets of conflict, there's still tensions, there's still fragility. But we can see that there is an opportunity for peace. And sometimes refugees vote for that opportunity before anybody else and rush back.

I remember seeing this many years ago when the Taliban first fell in Afghanistan in 2001 and Afghans rushed back by the millions to their country. So, people sometimes are so eager to rebuild their lives and go back to their homes – which is an important part of rebuilding your lives – that somehow, they vote for peace even before a peace treaty is signed. And that, for me, is peace. And that is, for me, an opportunity that the world cannot miss when it presents itself.

 

[00:10:33] Melissa Fleming

And you talked about Afghans rushing home, and Syrians returning by the thousands, actually, to Syria. I know that you've spoken to refugees all over the world about what home means to them. How would you describe in general what they mostly say?

 

[00:10:51] Filippo Grandi

I would say home means two things for people that flee. One is their actual home. Home means your house, your family, your friends, your work, your school, your familiar world. And it is fantastic when, like in Syria, like 25 years ago in Afghanistan, people can go back to their homes. This is what most refugees want. You know, there's a myth that all refugees want to go to the rich countries to take jobs from others. This is the rhetoric of the bad politicians, right? The reality is that the overwhelming majority of the refugees goes very near their country because they want to be able to go back as soon as they can. And they want to go back because that's home for them.

But unfortunately, not everybody can go back. And sometimes the time of exile is so long that people cannot afford to wait anymore, so they have to make home somewhere else. That's what resettlement is about. This is what integrating people in their host countries is about, these are the other solutions for refugees. That means people creating a new home for themselves, and we helping them to that.

And I think that in that context, the meaning of home is first and foremost, security – the absence of fear. These are people that have gone away from their home where they were afraid of bombs, of torture, of prison, of discrimination, and they went to a new place. And there, so many times I've met refugees and asked them, “How do you feel?” And when they say, “I feel secure here”, that's the most important for me. Then, of course, many other challenges – I need to get a job, I need to send my kids to school, I need the subsistence, allowances and money. This is all practical things, but first and foremost home is security.

 

 

[00:12:54] Melissa Fleming

I mean, refugees are becoming so politicized and used and instrumentalized to win elections, lied about. What do you say to those politicians who are misusing the term refugee and claiming that they are coming to their countries for reasons that are not true?

 

[00:13:18] Filippo Grandi

I've said many things to those politicians over the past 10 years. By the way, Melissa, as you remember very well – we were here together – that rhetoric that the refugee, the migrant, the stranger is a threat, is not new. Maybe existed as long as humanity has existed, but has skyrocketed after the big influx of Syrian and other refugees into Europe, exactly 10 years ago. So, this has really been a dramatic trajectory that has affected all the 10 years in which I have been in this job. So, we have to address that issue.

And my message to those using that argument is that – well, first and foremost, it is an argument profoundly rooted in racism. In fueling hatred between people. In stigmatizing certain communities. Tools, if you want to call them like this, which these politicians have been using shamelessly to gain votes for a long period of time. They have now focused on the refugees, on the migrants, because human mobility has become so big in the last few years. So, all these things are despicable. They are immoral. They can also be very dangerous for the security of entire communities. They border the criminal, in my opinion.

But there is another message for – not so much these politicians, some of them, in my opinion, are beyond repair in that sense – but for all those that are wavering, that are listening, that have very legitimate concerns about big population movements, about what it means, economically, socially, politically. And I don't underestimate for one moment, the genuine concerns of these people in whichever country they are. And there, my message is regarding those other messages, negative messages. They don't solve any problem. Not only are they wrong and bad and terrible, but they don't solve the problem. They don't propose solutions.

Building walls, pushing people out at sea, having legal measures that are very, very restrictive and even discriminatory don't solve the problem. Human mobility is a huge phenomenon that needs to be addressed with rational and collective measures. It needs a lot of unpacking, of understanding, and of measures that are less easy to explain than the bad ones, but much more effective. And we've done a lot of work on that.

 

[00:16:13] Melissa Fleming

Are there any shining lights that you see? Like samples of humanity that politicians have embraced and used constructively?

 

[00:16:25] Filippo Grandi

One of the highlights of the 10 years is when the then President of Colombia, Iván Duque, asked me to travel to Bogotá and stand next to him as he announced that his government had decided to grant temporary protection, for 10 years with full access to jobs and services, to more than 2 million Venezuelans that Colombia was hosting. And Duque’s announcement was – the Colombian announcement – was very interesting because it had, I think, a very strong solidarity element. You know, of course, in Latin America there's much solidarity for populations affected by these problems, but I think there was also a very strong and very virtuous self-interest declared there.

He kept saying to his people, “It's a bold choice, but in the end, you will see these people will study, will get skills, will work, will contribute back to our economy.” And guess what? There's been studies done by the IMF and other expert organizations that show exactly that. And it has not taken even that much time. And even if these people, as I hope, at least many of them, one day, will return to Venezuela, they'll bring back skills and resources that will be indispensable in their own country. So, it's a win-win, which is principled and useful.

 

[00:18:07] Melissa Fleming

Let's hope we have more examples like that. When you think about – as you leave UNHCR and the numbers of people who are displaced, what is keeping you most awake at night?

 

[00:18:20] Filippo Grandi

At the moment, two things. One is what we have just discussed. This terrible, destructive and hateful messages. They come in every shape and form. It's not just the social media. They come in the political discourse. They come in the words of those that are aggressive for selfish political reasons, but they also come sometimes from governments and politicians that are actually moderate – if we want to call them like this – but are afraid that if they don't take harsh positions towards these communities or people, they will be over taken by the aggressive politicians. It's a vicious circle there in politics, which is very, very dangerous. Because in reality, I always tell politicians, you know, you listen to the negative, but look at the positives. I just came back from the UK and Norway. And you know, of course, the debate is difficult in the political domain, but in civil society, welcoming people, helping them in helping them integrate, is still very strong. Solidarity is very strong. But politicians look only at the opposite. They never remember that people with solidarity, vote as well. So maybe listen to them sometimes.

That keeps me awake at night, that difficult conundrum. The other one is the resources, of course. Because we have had, I have had, we have had here, in my last year in office, the worst ever year, financially. With the United States and many European donors really decreasing their contribution very suddenly, for a variety of reasons, which has obliged us to reduce by 1/3 the volume of our work. Be it staff, be it what we do for refugees, for displaced people. We are, of course, under the leadership of the Secretary-General, working very hard to be as effective as possible within those limited resources. But it's tough. And I think every day, what about more than half of the refugees to whom we used to give cash, up to last year, have lost that allowance. What will their life be if they cannot buy food for their children, send them to school or to the clinic if they're sick? I can just think of that misery and how we can address that in different, creative, new ways, but that is going to be a big challenge going forward.

 

 

[00:21:07] Melissa Fleming

Yeah. I mean, there's so many dimensions of how these very dramatic, and very sudden, cuts to the budgets of humanitarian organizations – also the disappearance of USAID that was providing foundational health support and many other dimensions. So, in these fragile countries, in these theaters where the state has really counted on the international community to provide the services while they were providing the access, it is in a way, it exposes how this family of humanitarians was really aiding populations. And what do you think the consequences will be?

 

[00:21:55] Filippo Grandi

The reality is that for millions, the consequences are not going to be in the future, they are happening now. They will have less resources to survive. The aid system is resilient and can find ways forward, but it will take some time. One big problem of this – of these decisions were, they were very sudden, and we were given very little time to reorganize ourselves. But we will, we will. And I'm confident that we can rebuild.

I am, however, worried about a larger problem to which this financial issue is linked, which is a general weakening of the so-called multilateral system. The international system. The multilateral system is really a system that was established by states to help them cooperate with each other. I actually fear that some of these decisions are meant to weaken this system. But without this system, no matter how much we talk about our country first, no country can solve the big problems we're talking about. Climate change, pandemics, security, conflict resolution, refugees and migrants. So, these are the type of challenges that require everybody to cooperate. And require a system that adjusts and reconciles their inevitably different interests. That's normal, countries have different interests. And so, they need a chamber in the middle where this can be adjusted with the help of experts, which is the UN officials.

But I hope that, you know, somehow – again, I operate from an interesting vantage point, that of crisis. And this is where humanity sometimes gets very close to the brink, then sees what the beyond the brink is like and steps back. You know, yesterday night, I read a very interesting post by President Trump, in which he very strongly affirms that Sudan is the biggest humanitarian crisis in the world, that people are crying out for food and for medicines, and that it is important that space is given to humanitarian assistance and then that the parties make peace. I hope this is really a sign of better things to come. That the most powerful country in the world engages, as we heard they will. They're already engaging in Sudan on the humanitarian side, and we can be really the vehicle for this assistance to be channeled to the people in need, and on the political side to put an end to the war. These are the signs that I still read in the international debate, often linked to crisis, that make me think that maybe there is a way forward.

 

[00:24:53] Melissa Fleming

Indeed. And I think the more multilateralism is under threat, the more we see those who really are champions of multilateralism pulling together and trying to save it. I wanted to ask you one thing about the cuts, because you made your career at UNHCR, also at UNRWA for a time, but mostly at UNHCR. You know the colleagues here in this building, you've worked with them, and you've had to make the very, very painful decision to let thousands of them go. You've had to cut posts. What has that meant for you? How painful has that been?

 

[00:25:37] Filippo Grandi

One of the most painful things that I had to do in these 10 years, and maybe in my whole working life, for sure. What can I say? It's been excruciating. And you know, we are close to five thousand posts cut, and it may not be over. We may have to reduce in some places, not everywhere, some more. And all I can say is to all these people is that I'm sorry, this is the circumstances have obliged to that. We've tried to do it in the best possible way, but there is no good way to put an end unwillingly to a humanitarian, or any other career, by the way. So, it has been painful.

My message to them is that, know that what you have done, up to the point where we could support it, has been wonderful and important, and nobody should think that those ends of career are linked to anything negative. So, we should – and to those who stay, because this is also very important. Less people stay, many people have to do more work because there's less positions. You know, to those who stay, my message is, “I'm leaving, but the organization is strong.” I think the UN, in the end, is strong. And with the appropriate adjustments, with the appropriate work, there is leadership in the UN, and there will be leadership here to ensure that we will remain relevant.

The Secretary-General has told us – and you know this, Melissa, we've been together in many meetings, so many times – we're on the right side of history. This may not seem apparent in some of the horrifying crises we're dealing with: Ukraine, Gaza, Sudan, Myanmar. But I think we are on the right side of history. This is not at all to get us off the hook. We have to work hard, also to be as effective as we can. But in the end, we are working for the right cause, and sometimes this has meant also to tell some of our colleagues, “you cannot do it anymore.” This is terribly painful, but we must carry on. And I wish them and all the others that have lost employment in the entire aid system – not just the UN, and they are thousands and thousands – that, you know, you have a wealth of experience and knowledge and passion. And I hope and trust that it will be still useful for humanity.

 

[00:28:19] Melissa Fleming 

I'm sure that they will contribute in other ways, and their service has been so important. When you look back over your career at UNHCR, what are you most proud of?

 

[00:28:30] Filippo Grandi

To me, the best moment of all – I say this with some hesitation, because there's been many – but the best moment of all was when I stood at the borders of Afghanistan, and people were coming back in huge numbers on those trucks painted in a thousand colors, with all their belongings and singing. And you know, of course, unfortunately, that was not a long-lived moment. And I think we have let Afghanistan down over the years, and the Afghans down. But it was the proof when that there is a space, people go back home and desperately want to be hopeful. And that hope is so real.

You know, they went back and with the little we gave them. They rebuild their homes, schools, clinics, we were working all together the various agencies. It was a moment of enormous hope. And remember, that was a moment which could occur because there was concerted international action, military action, one should say that, and political action. And the UN was very prominent in bringing the parties together to forge a new pathway for Afghanistan. It was the divisions that came later that blocked that path, had brought Afghanistan backwards. But that was a moment of hope. And once again, who were the first ones to understand this? The people who have been exiled and who rush back to go back to their homes.

 

[00:30:07] Melissa Fleming

I remember being with you in Afghanistan, and it was so clear to me that you had a special place in your heart for the country. Why is that?

 

[00:30:17] Filippo Grandi

Because the Afghans are so tough in every sense. Sometimes it's difficult to deal with them, but it's always good to deal with people that have, you know, strong sense of identity, of belonging and of pride, because that made actually the type of work we do easier. And of course, it is, like other places, but it is such a beautiful country with beautiful people that have been so much the victims of history. And so, I feel very much drawn. You know, my work has been with the Palestinians, with Afghans, with populations that history has not treated well, and I feel that we in the United Nations have a particular duty to people that have suffered that fate.

 

[00:31:15] Melissa Fleming

I'm going to ask you about your saddest moment. Is there something that just pops into your mind about what really hit you hard?

 

[00:31:26] Filippo Grandi

I had sad moments in some difficult operations, like, for example, in Congo, after the genocide in Rwanda, the outflow of refugees, and then the civil war between Kabila and Mobutu in the mid-90s. I was leading, actually, UN operations there and in a few other places where, really – because that's the other characteristic of working in crisis, you see the best, but you see also the worst. The worst of violence, of hatred, of killings, the common graves, the extermination of certain groups. This was pretty horrifying in many places, but I lived that particularly close to in Congo in the mid-90s. And that was sad. That was sad. What is sad is that, you know, you wonder why, 30 years later, now that conflict is still raging. Because I think that the premises of that conflict that were started thirty, forty years ago continues to be there and have created a context of hatred that is now so difficult to surmount. So those are the difficult parts. Yeah.

 

[00:32:57] Melissa Fleming

What does that make you – when you see things like that, when you see these brutal killings and man's inhumanity to man. I mean, what does that make you feel about humankind?

 

[00:33:08] Filippo Grandi

Well, I think it is important to remember that humankind can be very good and very bad. It's simply, you know, this is a fact. And of course, it generates feelings of rage and anger and indignation, which sometimes you have to manifest. But because it is a fact, you also have to find ways to address it.

Now this is the other important thing about working for an organization like UNHCR, that it is an organization that is the custodian of certain important principles, that you don't push back people fleeing from war or persecution. First and foremost, that's the founding principle of refugee work, of refugee protection. And UNHCR is the custodian of that principle, which is so important. But so, we have to stand up for it, say when it is violated, and denounce these violations. But because this happens, this, you know, the bad side of humanities, that these things happen, we also have to find way to negotiate with the perpetrators of these violations. Sometimes they're governments. They're not bad individuals. So, we have to negotiate. We have to use legal arguments, self-interest arguments, political arguments. So, you know, you have to react to these in two ways, indignation and negotiation. I think it's the space between these two that our work is about,

 

 

[00:34:47] Melissa Fleming

In our first interview, which listeners can access wherever they get their podcasts, and I recommend it very strongly, because we heard a lot about your origin story growing up in Milan, and joining an NGO, and then helping humanity before you joined UNHCR. I wonder if you regret ever having spent so much time working?

 

[00:35:15] Filippo Grandi

Not for a minute. Of course, you know, sometimes I would like to have had a couple more weekends, that's for sure. But frankly, never. I think this work – I don't even call it job, this work, I think is a better word for it – has been so gratifying, so privileged, in a way that I don't regret for a moment. I will try to get some rest as soon as I retire from this job. But no, no, no regret, absolutely no regrets.

 

[00:35:50] Melissa Fleming

You did make some sacrifices, though.

 

[00:35:52] Filippo Grandi

Yeah, of course, you know a colleague of mine – maybe I told you this story before, Melissa, but this struck me – a colleague and a common friend of ours, when she retired a couple of years ago, made a beautiful speech. This was Pascal Moreau, the former Director of our Europe Bureau. She made the speech in which she said, “I don't regret anything that I have done, because what a privilege to see history from this perspective. For thirty, forty years, I wouldn't have swapped this for any other job. There is only one thing that I didn't have in these thirty years, and now I will have a bit more, and that is time.” So, I look forward to that.

 

[00:36:34] Melissa Fleming

What will you do with that time?

 

[00:36:36] Filippo Grandi

I don't know yet. I still have to work for six more weeks.

 

[00:36:39] Melissa Fleming

I know you do, but you must be thinking of your next chapter.

 

[00:36:43] Filippo Grandi

Yeah, I want to reflect. I want to spend time with young people. I think it's very, very important that an older person like me with some relevant experience can tell stories. Perhaps I don't want to say more, I don't want to be patronizing. Just share my stories and what I have gone through with young people. Why? Because if there is hope, it's there.

Look at the climate movement. Look at the pro-Palestinian movement. Of course, there are excesses. There are – but I like movements because it means that young people are still fighting for something that is good and worth. And I want to give them arguments, and I want to give them – more than anything else, more than any knowledge – I want to give them the awareness that this is important and worthwhile and they're not wasting their time when they fight for a cause. So that's what I want to do.

 

[00:37:52] Melissa Fleming

I have no doubt that your stories are going to inspire young people, and I probably suspect you might join in one of those movements. If you could pick a cause for your next chapter, what would it be?

 

[00:38:08] Filippo Grandi

I wish, I say I wish, because I don't know if I have the qualifications for that, but I wish I could help with the climate action. I think it is such an important, overwhelming, over-all encompassing cause in so many ways. Even here, our work has been very much affected by climate considerations.

But if I may add another area where I would be, I would certainly remain engaged – because there, I think I have even more personal knowledge – is really diversity in the sense of cultures mingling and coexisting. I know this is a very sensitive political argument, especially in Europe today. But we are moving more and more towards a mixed world in which we have to share with other cultures, with other races, with other people from other places. And I think that to contribute positively to that debate, how can we make the best out of this diversity, would be very, very interesting as well.

 

[00:39:31] Melissa Fleming

I guess that is one thing that you've learned from all of your travels, is that we are one common humanity, and maybe that the diversity is our strength? Am I putting words into your mouth?

 

[00:39:43] Filippo Grandi

Absolutely and, but we have to prove it. Not everybody believes it. And again, you have politicians saying, “This is bad. This is a threat.” This is not a threat. Not only is it a fact, by the way, go to any big city in Europe today, or also beyond Europe, but it is something that so obviously enriches us. So, we need to really make the case for diversity more strongly.

 

[00:40:07] Melissa Fleming

What is your hope for the UN and for the world?

 

[00:40:11] Filippo Grandi

That the world understands that the UN is that space – I always say the UN is a space, is an active space full of competent people, by the way. But it's a space which States must take, must use, to reconcile some of their differences, to exacerbate differences. This is the “my country first ideology”, right? You exacerbate differences is not going to be good, even for that country. So, we need to work together, and we need a space for that. That's what the founding fathers of the UN understood so well in 1945, eighty years ago. But we need to re-explain, especially to the young people, the importance of that space. I will do that. You can count on me.

 

[00:41:00] Melissa Fleming And just a

final question, we're here in Geneva. You've lived here for many years. You have a home here. What is your connection to Geneva?

 

[00:41:10] Filippo Grandi

Geneva is an interesting place. Small. It's a small Swiss city in the big, bigger world picture is not a very big city. But it is very big from the international point of view, because it has hosted organizations like the Red Cross, the UN and many others for a long, long time, and somehow that has shaped the city.

It's not its only identity. It has many other identities, but that's a strong one. And of course, within that identity, you have also another more historical identity. This is a city of refuge. It is inscribed in stone in one of the buildings in the center of the city. You know, Geneva, City of Refuge, because, you know, the French Protestants, for example, when they were persecuted many centuries ago, fled to Geneva – that was a Protestant city – and flourished here. Became bankers, became industrialists. So it is an important center, also historically, of welcoming the stranger. And you can feel that in the city politics, in the cultural life of the city.

So yes, many people criticize Geneva as a bit boring, a bit small. I don't really agree. I think it's a city that has a lot to offer. And although my home, my home is in Italy, and I will certainly go back there. I will keep another home here, because all my life makes me feel at home in a place like this.

 

[00:42:50] Melissa Fleming

Well, I look forward to visiting you here in Geneva and hearing about everything that you're doing with your next stage in your life. And thank you so much for sharing what this last period has been for you. Thanks, Filippo.

 

[00:43:06] Filippo Grandi

Thank you. Thank you, Melissa, for this beautiful initiative. And may I also take this opportunity to really wish all the best to all my colleagues, in all the UN organizations. Please don't lose heart. We are on the right side of history.

 

[00:43:26] Melissa Fleming

Thank you, Filippo.

 

[00:43:27] Filippo Grandi

Thank you.

 

 

[00:43:30] Melissa Fleming

Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world a better and more peaceful place.

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please take the time to review us. It helps more people to find the show. 

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell and to my colleagues at the UN: Katerina Kitidi, Roberta Politi, Julie James-Poplawski, Eric Justin Balgley, Benji Candelario, Jason Candler, Abby Vardeleon, Alison Corbet, Laura Rodriguez de Castro, Anzhelika Devis, Tulin Battikhi and Bissera Kostova. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier.