Elpida Rouka | Overcoming trauma in the service of peace (S13-E3)

 

 

 

00:00:00] Melissa Fleming

My guest this week survived one of the worst attacks in UN history. 

 

[00:00:06] Elpida Rouka

Somehow, first you feel the shake, and the light, and then the blast, the sound comes. I still am blacked out between my exiting the building, but when I was out, there was just a scene of a massacre. And the only thing I recall after that was being thrown a phone and told, 'Call your parents now.' 

 

[00:00:40] Melissa Fleming

Elpida Rouka is a Senior Political Affairs Officer. Her name, she told me, means hope in Greek. From the United Nations, I'm Melissa Fleming. This is Awake at Night. Welcome, Elpida. It's great to be with you in our radio studios in Geneva. 

 

[00:01:07] Elpida Rouka

Thank you, Melissa. And good to see you again and in Geneva, as you say. And good to reunite. 

 

[00:01:11] Melissa Fleming

I know it's been a long time. When did we last see each other? It must have been when I was at UNHCR [the UN Refugee Agency]. 

 

[00:01:17] Elpida Rouka

Yes. So, yes. Well, right before you left, I think. Sometime in 2019 probably. 

 

[00:01:22] Melissa Fleming

I remember you were always a big supporter of the refugee cause. And maybe we'll get into that, because I think it's also personal. But first, I want to talk about you. And you've worked for the UN. It's getting on to 25 years. And you've served in some very challenging places. But I want to start by asking you about something that happened to you right at the beginning of your career when you were serving in Iraq. You were present at the devastating attack on the UN compound at the Canal Hotel in Baghdad. This is when a truck loaded with explosives deliberately targeted the UN mission and 22 of your colleagues, our colleagues, were killed. Can I ask you how old were you then and what was your job in Iraq at that time? 

 

[00:02:17] Elpida Rouka

Yes, absolutely. Just by way of context. I'm Greek-born with roots in Asia Minor and Greek Macedonia. And I joined the UN straight out of college and grad school in Columbia University in New York. And my first job lands me in the Middle East with the Office of the Iraq Programme at the time. And so that August 2003, 19 of August, I happened to be with the Executive Director in Iraq because we're closing down the Programme, the Oil-for-Food Programme, as per Security Council and US decision. 

 

 

[00:02:55] Melissa Fleming

Yeah, it was just a few months after the US coalition toppled Saddam Hussein. You were working in New York. How did you feel about being sent to Iraq? 

 

[00:03:07] Elpida Rouka

I asked to go, actually. Because sometimes I can be relentless in asking what I think is right for me to be doing. The Executive Director relented, obviously. There was a lot of guilt afterwards about, 'Oh my God, what would have happened had you [inaudible] that moment been unlucky enough or lucky enough to be in one place over the other?' 

 

[00:03:44] Melissa Fleming

Of course, you couldn't have anticipated that the UN Office that was based in the Canal Hotel was going to be targeted. What do you remember when you walked into work that fateful day at the Canal Hotel in Baghdad? 

 

[00:04:02] Elpida Rouka

I mean, remember [inaudible] a funny thing, right? But I have replayed it and played it over for so many years now. But it was our last day. It was supposed to be our last day in Iraq. We had just come back from the northern Iraqi governorates. And I remember entering the compound. I took a picture of the UN flag that ended up being the one that survived the blast and was then framed. And that picture down the line, it was digitalized. When it came out, it was blurred. It was very odd, right? Eerie in some ways. 

So I entered the compound I think about 3:30 or so. And me and my colleague Darko Mocibob, we were trying to get permission to go to downtown Baghdad. We had not seen Baghdad in all this time that we were trying to work out how you close this humongous humanitarian programme. And obviously, the Executive Director, Benon Sevan, said, 'Absolutely not.' This is not a place to be doing conflict tourism, if you may. So I was sitting in my office, which was actually right below Sergio's, on the side of the building that you see collapse into the ground. And Benon Sevan wanted to have his meeting with then the late David Nabarro in the office across the corridor, Ramiro's office. Because he had a coffee machine and a balcony and whatever [inaudible]. 

Anyway, and then he said, 'You guys are free. So let's not... Elpida, you don't need to be in this meeting.' And literally five minutes later, he walked in and said, 'You know what, why not? It's the last meeting I have. Why don't you come in.' And literally I crossed the corridor, looked left. So, my friend Marwan Ali and Rick Cooper walked into the meeting. That's about 4:00. 10-15 minutes later, I saw David Nabarro's assistant, like his eyes, like dilating. Because you first... Somehow first you feel the shake, and the light, and then the blast, the sound comes. The next thing I know, I'm on the floor. And I walk out and there's this precipice right in front. 

 

[00:06:35] Melissa Fleming

Where your office was. 

 

[00:06:37] Elpida Rouka

That's right. And where Bjorn and the other close protection were like straight into the rubble, the rubble you've seen now many times in trying to find out where Sergio and the others were trapped. I don't remember... I still am blacked out between my exiting the building, but when I was out, there was just a massacre on the... Just a scene of a massacre, and the only thing I recall after that was being thrown a phone and told, 'Call your parents now.' And it was the luckiest thing that could have happened at that moment. Otherwise, I think my parents would have been in another situation. And that was it. And a few hours later, I was in the last sort of triage hospital of a military compound, when we also heard the news of Sergio's passing. 

 

[00:07:42] Melissa Fleming

Just because I know that all of us at the UN know who Sergio Vieira de Mello is, but there may be people... It's been a while. 

 

[00:07:49] Elpida Rouka

Sergio Vieira de Mello, the head of the UN political mission at the time in Iraq and obviously formerly human rights... 

 

[00:07:58] Melissa Fleming

He was a legend in the UN. 

 

[00:08:00] Elpida Rouka

Yes, indeed. 

 

[00:08:01] Melissa Fleming

Very high profile, beloved figure. And just to repeat, your office was just below his office. 

 

[00:08:11] Elpida Rouka

That's right. 

 

[00:08:11] Melissa Fleming

His office was hit. He fell into the rubble. There were hours and hours of attempts to rescue him and to pull him out. Had you not been invited into that meeting, you would have suffered the same fate. It must have been absolutely shocking to see what you saw, to lose who you lost. 

 

[00:08:45] Elpida Rouka

It was, and I think... But I didn't realize it for a very long time afterwards. So I delved straight back into work. Even when I was for the first time told, 'You're not essential.' But I didn't know what this meant. It was so hard to comprehend. I mean... 

 

[00:09:07] Melissa Fleming

You were 25 years old. 

 

[00:09:08] Elpida Rouka

I was 25 years old. 

 

 

[00:09:10] Melissa Fleming

Were you injured at all? 

 

[00:09:12] Elpida Rouka

I was, but not as seriously, obviously, as others. But certainly there's a mark other than the physical, emotional mark that reminds me. And of course the scorched and shrapneled laissez-passer, which was the only thing that was recovered. 

 

[00:09:28] Melissa Fleming

That's your UN passport. 

 

[00:09:30] Elpida Rouka

That's my UN passport, my first UN passport. And the only... Just as you see the age of innocence, this is my picture at the age of 25. 

 

[00:09:42] Melissa Fleming

And that was recovered. It was in your office? 

 

[00:09:45] Elpida Rouka

It was in my office, yes. So no other belongings survived except for this and some broken glasses, but yes. And that was returned to me in New York months later in a pouch. 

 

[00:10:01] Melissa Fleming

I hate to ask you this, but did you lose friends or close colleagues? 

 

[00:10:09] Elpida Rouka

Yes, of course. We all did. And even if they weren't friends, then they became friends afterwards in many ways. 

 

[00:10:21] Melissa Fleming

They were... For all of us, for the UN, it was the worst thing that had happened. The UN had never been attacked that devastatingly. I mean, you mentioned that you kind of just went back to work and although you had physical injuries you weren't really thinking about the effect on your psyche. But do you remember your feelings during those days? 

 

[00:11:00] Elpida Rouka

Yes, I think what I can now say with confidence retrospectively and because of other things I have suffered since, I had very serious PTSD. But I didn't know what that meant. So... 

 

[00:11:16] Melissa Fleming

You lived with it and that we'll talk about. 

 

[00:11:19] Elpida Rouka

Yes, but I think it was more being in sort of perpetual and extended shock and denial and just going with emotions. I mean I felt later on when I returned to Iraq four years later, I never thought I would by the way. But I also saw it as perhaps closure at the time. And that provided some emotional healing, but certainly not mental health healing, if you may. 

 

[00:11:51] Melissa Fleming

So you chose to continue working for the UN, but you chose not to stay in a safe UN headquarters in New York or Geneva or Vienna. You went back to Iraq. What was it like when you arrived there? 

 

[00:12:10] Elpida Rouka

It was very emotional but in ways I could also not make sense at the time. I mean I should preface it by saying in 2003 I lost my age of innocence. And there were a lot of things that didn't make sense, but they made sense later. Actually, far later. They made sense mostly in Afghanistan and afterwards. But as I said, it was emotional. And I kind of, despite having sort of scoffed at those who said, 'Elpida, you're going back to Iraq?' I said, 'Yeah, well, I am back. Yes, indeed.' In some ways, it was almost like I also owed it to maybe... I mean, it sounds perhaps a little too soft, you know. But yes, I was imagining what had those friends who had chosen to go in 2003 been alive at the time, what would they have done? 

 

[00:13:23] Melissa Fleming

Are you still in contact with other survivors? 

 

[00:13:28] Elpida Rouka

Yes, of course. And of course we see each other in every anniversary. Though the word anniversary, I don't know, it's befitting of... 

 

 

[00:13:37] Melissa Fleming

It's World Humanitarian Day, which is commemorated. I wonder how you think the attack changed the UN?  

 

[00:13:49] Elpida Rouka

I think both in good and bad ways. I think in some ways... Yes, the bad is the obvious one, right? That there was a realization that the UN blue flag is no longer sacred, that the peoples of the world do not believe in the Charter or what it is that we're purported to be doing, the principles we talk about. And that obviously gave... I mean, it was a symptom of many things, right? In some ways... And this is a debate that continued for years and still is, I presume, not just because of Iraq. In some ways we became more bunkerized than before and barricaded than before because now it's about safety and security. I'm not saying that's not correct. But it took us a lot of years and still does to get the balance right. In many ways... 

The good thing is I think in many ways it triggered a lot of internal debates about what it is we serve, what is our purpose in many ways. It was more like recalibration in many ways. And how do you, I suppose, close the conundrum of serving the people you're mandated to and challenging the very Member States that mandated you to do so? And then it created an esprit de corps that's, you know... I mean I grew up in the UN, right? I mean, this was my awakening in many ways. That bond became stronger. And it also was not just forcing us to realize the responsibility that we have, but it's actually telling us you don't have the right to not try. I mean, I remembered the preamble the other day, and we always focus on "We the Peoples". But the verb the preamble uses is “determined.” 

 

[00:16:20] Melissa Fleming

The preamble of the UN Charter. It says, "We the Peoples". 

 

[00:16:20] Elpida Rouka

We the people determined. I mean the verb is "determined", it's not the [inaudible] we may try, right? 

 

[00:16:30] Melissa Fleming

So it's not "aspire". It's not "try". It is "we the people are determined." 

 

[00:16:38] Elpida Rouka

Correct. 

 

[00:16:38] Melissa Fleming

To.. 

 

[00:16:38] Elpida Rouka

To prevent the future generation from the scourge of war. And that's what I think too many of us, that moment on 19th of August brought us back to realizing. 

 

[00:16:53] Melissa Fleming

You carry the UN Charter with you. 

 

[00:16:56] Elpida Rouka

Yes, this is actually my own. First one or the second one actually, because it was reprinted. But yes. And it also has a... You will appreciate this, because this is a UN Brussels UNIC picture in front of the Acropolis. So it's my country. 

 

[00:17:14] Melissa Fleming

It's a UN flag in front of the Acropolis. 

 

[00:17:18] Elpida Rouka

Yes. 

 

[00:17:18] Melissa Fleming

What is that year? 

 

[00:17:19] Elpida Rouka

It was 60 years of the UN, and it was reprinted in Greek. 

 

[00:17:31] Melissa Fleming

You escaped from that hotel with minor physical injuries, as you said, but you kind of alluded to a deeper emotional toll. What was that? 

 

 

[00:17:45] Elpida Rouka

I mean, obviously, as I said, I didn't stop after 19th of August 2003. I went from Iraq to Afghanistan. Obviously, I witnessed a lot of... Well, a major loss of colleagues in Afghanistan as well in Mazar-i-Sharif.

 

[00:18:08] Melissa Fleming

What happened there? 

 

[00:18:14] Elpida Rouka

Well, it's a long story. It was a complex attack, suicide bombing attack and other things in a compound in Mazar-i-Sharif. It was an angry crowd that had anti-American sentiments, but it became... We were at the office compound that was there [inaudible]. But then I went to Palestine. And then I moved from Palestine to Syria for 10 years. And, you know, all this exposure to, I mean, of course, trauma, suffering, loss, underlies all the challenges we see and the conflict around us. 

But we also forget, or at least I forgot until I didn't, that the aid worker, the mediator, the practitioners, also come with their own personal trauma. And when those realities align, it becomes.... I mean, in some ways it could become good, in the sense of that's the thing about trauma - it transcends age and circumstance and positions and [inaudible]. Or in fact, if you're able to recognize the other's pain, maybe we're getting somewhere with the work we're doing. 

But more specifically, 10 years ago this year, I suffered a personal tragedy. I lost my beloved younger brother to suicide. And the world ended. And for someone who purported to be a super girl... By the way, that was his coined phrase for me. And that's why my grieving journal is called "Supergirls Don't Grieve". Comes from a Reamonn song, "Supergirls Don't Cry", for those who know the 90s. And I thought I was on the top of my game career-wise. 

You know, I had, as we just established, been bombed and shot at and seen colleagues die and I thought I was saving humanity. And then, you know this tragedy pulled all kinds of latent PTSD and all kinds war-torn, conflict-related trauma and generational trauma. And I grew up with the glitterati of peacekeeping. In some ways I had, by that time, been glitterati myself in the sense that people would think that I always said I had come to have an illustrious career because I was obviously serving high office in very high profile and consequential conflicts. But as we know, all that glitters is not gold. 

 

[00:21:14] Melissa Fleming

You lose your brother. I mean, it would be a trauma for anyone. You were very close to him, right? What was his name? 

 

[00:21:26] Elpida Rouka

Yannis. John. 

 

[00:21:29] Melissa Fleming

Yannis. I mean, I saw you've written about your trauma. So you've processed it also through writing and publishing also about it. But as you said, you not only had your deep grief for losing him, but it really brought to the surface what you had been suppressing all those years following the bombing. What happened to you? How did you deal with it? 

 

 

[00:22:07] Elpida Rouka

Well, I must say, again, surprisingly, for having gone through something similar in different ways, I also threw myself back to work, right? Shock and awe and denial for several months until someone sent me an article by Dean Yates, who's very vocal about moral injury and trauma in war-torn zones. He was a journalist in Iraq who also suffered PTSD and got voluntarily hospitalized. And so the article was about PTSD. And someone asked me, 'Do you think...?' And I said, 'Are you suggesting I have PTSD?' And they said, 'No, I'm suggesting I do.' But you know that kind of triggered... And I still was in shock and denial until I reached a very low, low moment when I asked for help. I said, 'I can't, you know, survive this.' 

 

[00:23:23] Melissa Fleming

You wrote that you had lost tons of weight, and you were... 

 

[00:23:26] Elpida Rouka

Oh yes, I had lost lots of weight. 

 

[00:23:28] Melissa Fleming

Not sleeping. 

 

[00:23:29] Elpida Rouka

Not sleeping, not, you know... I was having nightmares asleep and nightmares awake. I was hanging on by a thread. I couldn't do anything. I couldn't listen to music, because it was all association. I mean, I even tried... I mean I've tried all kinds of therapy. I've even tried bibliotherapy, but I couldn't read because it was triggering all kinds of images. It was a very acute stage. I mean, the reality is the first responder was a Lebanese in the Geneva crisis centre, whose first question was, 'How come you haven't, you know...? You didn't... In your line of work, you didn't know that you have PTSD and severe depression? And why it took you so long to come here?' [Inaudible] tells you a lot. 

 

[00:24:16] Melissa Fleming

Oh, it was a Lebanese at the clinic? Lebanese have gone through their share of trauma. 

 

[00:24:20] Elpida Rouka

I know, I know. Another sign that, you know... At least years later, actually, we ran into each other, and we were able to laugh about all these things, I mean, in a black humour kind of way. But you know trauma does bring humour, I must tell you. 

 

[00:24:41] Melissa Fleming

Doesn't it? 

 

[00:24:41] Elpida Rouka

It does. It does. 

 

[00:24:43] Melissa Fleming

That's probably all the deep emotions that allow you, if you face it, to feel. Rather than avoiding the pain, you're facing it when you go through the treatment, right? 

 

[00:24:57] Elpida Rouka

Well, yes. It depends on what your treatment is. As I said, I've tried all kinds of therapy, including pharma therapy and talk therapy. Pharma therapy had stopped a few months after. Talk therapy, I'm not big at. Although I did find one therapist from San Diego who belongs to the older generation of, you know, the people who talked to me about the book, "The Body Keeps Score" and stuff like that. And her name was Priscilla, so I used to call her "Priscilla, queen of my desert" as a [inaudible] of the movie "Queen of the Desert". But beyond that, as you said, I mostly found... I mean, true to type, the therapist in the clinic misread my personality - very Type A. So they challenged me the first day. 'Oh, it's okay. We've seen worse.' And I said, 'Oh, let me show you.' Very un-psychological. 

 

[00:26:06] Melissa Fleming

You kind of deceived them into thinking you weren't that bad. 

 

[00:26:08] Elpida Rouka

Well, I don't know if I deceived them, but the problem is and this is the most interesting part of.... I mean not the most interesting, but one interesting part was I found myself having to explain myself in four languages because I was in a clinic in Switzerland, right? And of course, as you know, as psychology will tell you, all the deep emotions you instantly want to communicate in your own native language, right? But I did find some words in French like cauchemar, which really were evocative of what I was feeling. But the most interesting realization at some point was that despair in French is désespoir, which literally means "without hope". "Hope" is my name. 

 

 

[00:27:00] Melissa Fleming

Elpida means hope in Greek. 

 

[00:27:02] Elpida Rouka

Elpida means hope in Greek. So I was literally without hope and without self, which was, you know, when you're in the depths or désespoir, it's quite a moment to have that realization about oneself and where do you find..., where do you hold on to. But the short version of it is I came out of it in ways that I don't think I would have imagined were possible. And I was, again - to use the word determined, and that's why I've been vocal about it - I was determined that suicide will not have the last word on my brother and neither will depression on mine. 

So that's why I have no qualms discussing those issues. And also because again, in some ways, I have a responsibility in the sense of I've had a very good career. And if I'm not able to say these things in my position, right, how would others come out? I mean, the stigma is still real. We know this. We've come a long way, but it's still very real. Not always because of people actively wanting to stigmatize you. It's just the fear of not being able to relate to that pain. To each one's pain - not that pain, mine in particular, right? 

 

[00:28:43] Melissa Fleming

Isn't it a bit also... I mean, I worked for UNHCR for 10 years and what I found often with colleagues was that they were just seeing so much suffering around them from people surviving wars and living with terrible losses. And that they just felt like, 'Well, nothing that I am suffering is anywhere close to what they are suffering.' So a little bit of that. 

 

[00:29:10] Elpida Rouka

A lot of that. Which is not fair, I think. Obviously, it's fair in the sense of how can you compare it to that amount of...? But it's also not fair to the individual to minimize one's own suffering. You know, it was very important to also say that trauma is not only conflict-related trauma. There are so many different ways that people experience trauma on a daily basis in their respective surroundings. And it's not all and only by wars. But of course, that's amplified a thousand more times, right? Because you also have the additional issue of guilt and survivor's guilt and all the things we know come with being particularly an aid worker in the front lines and witnessing the things you just mentioned. 

 

[00:30:12] Melissa Fleming

It is very complex and yet it's still so compelling to work for the UN and to find hope as your name symbolizes. And I just want to ask you. I mean it was... Maybe you said that your name was kind of ironic at the time when you were getting your trauma treatment, but what has your name meant for you beyond and maybe before that? 

 

[00:30:44] Elpida Rouka

Well, I have to blame my parents for giving me this name. Obviously, they had a plan for my survival, I suppose. 

 

[00:30:50] Melissa Fleming

Weren't you named after your grandmother? 

 

[00:30:52] Elpida Rouka

I was named after my grandmother, who was an early-day IDP. I have this [inaudible] that I will explain. 

 

[00:30:57] Melissa Fleming

IDP. 

 

[00:30:59] Elpida Rouka

Yes, an internally displaced person. So she was an early-day displaced person. She was only less than a month old when the family had to... In 1922, was when the Greeks of Asia Minor were forced to flee Smyrna, nowadays called Izmir. And on the boat to mainland Greece there was a priest who baptized her - because she hadn't yet been baptized - Elpida, which means hope. They hoped that they would return to their lands, which they never did. And La Doña Elpida, as they will call her - who also incidentally raised me and my brother because my parents were working really hard to make a life for themselves and for us - is part of the reason and many reasons that I do what I do. 

 

 

[00:32:03] Melissa Fleming

So her displacement experience, you think, has had an effect on your career path. 

 

[00:32:09] Elpida Rouka

Absolutely. Absolutely, because... And again, things that are not evident to you when you're growing up. Of course, I come also from... I said I'm Greek-born with roots in Asia Minor, but I was born in Thessaloniki, which is the mother of refuge. Actually, the city is called that because most of the refugee waves in 1922 came either to Thessaloniki or, mind you, Aleppo, Syria. So we have that connection too. And only later, at her funeral actually - when I saw the huge line of people who showed up in our house with no idea who they are - that I realized how much, you know, behind the scenes work my grandmother was doing with the most vulnerable. And the most vulnerable don't have to be, you know, at the global level in another country. They can be your neighbours. 

 

[00:33:10] Melissa Fleming

So she was helping to raise you so your parents could work, but she was also reaching out to people in the community who were poor. 

 

[00:33:22] Elpida Rouka

That's right. 

 

[00:33:22] Melissa Fleming

Coming back to today and these days, what keeps you awake at night? 

 

[00:33:31] Elpida Rouka

Not just these days, but definitely have I done enough? Have I done enough, in the sense of wars don't stop because it's the weekend? Have I done enough given the weight of what I know I've been witness to in terms of suffering? Have I done enough in the sense of "determined to", right? Humanitarian problems need political solutions not humanitarian solutions. Have I done enough in the sense of...? You know, I have a favorite line. I don't know if you ever watched Hamilton the musical. 

 

[00:34:26] Melissa Fleming

Yes, I did. Twice. 

 

[00:34:26] Elpida Rouka

Yes, I can imagine. There's one lyric that says, 'Who lives, who dies, who gets to tell your story?' So, have I had enough in that? And last but not least, in have I done enough with basically not letting up, not being complacent? And stressing that yes, war is not inevitable, but neither is peace. Peace is a choice. It's just harder to build it than keep it. So... 

 

[00:35:05] Melissa Fleming

Well you still… Even though you've been at the UN for 25 years, you still have a long way to go until they force you to retire. So I think you're very humble. I think you've done an incredible amount, and you've dedicated yourself to the UN and to the UN Charter. And, you know, really to Syria, which has been a country that has had a terrible civil war and produced millions of refugees, and now has undergone a transformation. And, you know, you served there. You also served here working for the office that was working for this day in a way. So what gives you hope when you think about Syria? 

 

[00:35:50] Elpida Rouka

First and foremost, the Syrians themselves. And this does not only apply on Syria, it applies on every other conflict or war or trauma-inflicted country that I've engaged in, and it's their future. So all we can do is to help them grab the opportunity of having the agency to build their own future. 

 

[00:36:24] Melissa Fleming

I mean, you've seen so much carnage, so much suffering. How do you still manage to be hopeful? 

 

[00:36:36] Elpida Rouka

Human connection. Syrian people, my friends in Syria and outside Syria, stood by me at my lowest in many cases, I suppose. If you're able to recognize the other's pain, then we are, indeed, getting somewhere. I mean, my parents were always laughing at me. Every time they would ask me, 'Elpida, what is it you do?' Right? And then it would be like, 'Okay, don't tell me. You're in another meeting. You have another gathering. It's, you know.' 

But I think Bill Burns put it best. Diplomacy is one of the most misunderstood professions, even if it is the oldest. But it's precisely all the forging a sustaining of relationships of trust across divisive narratives. And being able to, you know... Even if you know that how the world works is a dismal, not a pretty sight, you at least do not let that dismal reality trump principles, as you said. And what the world needs most is to have open channels of communication. 

 

[00:37:57] Melissa Fleming

Given everything that you've been through, if you were your 25-year-old self, would you choose to do it again? 

 

[00:38:05] Elpida Rouka

Absolutely. Unapologetically, yes. 

 

[00:38:09] Melissa Fleming

And would you encourage others to serve? 

 

[00:38:13] Elpida Rouka

I would. I would, with a caveat. There's always a cost, so you have to not take everything so much to heart at the beginning. Breathe. Breathe. 

 

[00:38:30] Melissa Fleming

Breathe and seek help when something terrible happens. 

 

[00:38:32] Elpida Rouka

Seek help even before it happens, I would say. 

 

[00:38:36] Melissa Fleming

I think you're going to help a lot of people who are serving in difficult places and in the UN just by telling your story and opening up. 

 

[00:38:43] Elpida Rouka

Thank you, Melissa. I hope so. 

 

[00:38:45] Melissa Fleming

Oh, absolutely. I think so many of our colleagues have gone through a lot of trauma. And it's like they say in the airplane, you need to put the oxygen mask on first before you can...  

 

[00:38:59] Elpida Rouka

That's exactly. You've got to be your own superhero for a second. 

 

[00:39:03] Melissa Fleming

That's right. Before you can help others. Thank you so much, Elpida. 

 

[00:39:07] Elpida Rouka

Thank you, Melissa. I appreciate it. 

 

[00:39:10] Melissa Fleming

Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world a better and safer place.

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please take the time to review us. It helps more people to find the show. 

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell and to my colleagues at the UN: Katerina Kitidi, Roberta Politi, Geneva Damayanti, Abby Vardeleon, Alison Corbet, Laura Rodriguez de Castro, Eric Balgley, Jason Candler, Benji Candelario, Anzhelika Devis, Tulin Battikhi, Bissera Kostova, Brianna Rowe, Joon Park, and Taeyoung Lee. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier.