Garry Conille | There’s no problem that can’t be solved (S13-E12)

 

 

 

[00:00:00] Melissa Fleming

My guest this week comes from Haiti, which is going through terrible times, but he says resilience shines through. 

 

[00:00:09] Garry Conille

It's been years of challenges and stress and distress, yet when you walk in the streets of Haiti you will see these young children with their hair just tightly done, and these uniforms tightly pressed, walking for hours to go to school. So that, I think, is probably what defines Haiti more than anything else. 

 

[00:00:40] Melissa Fleming

Garry Conille is the UN Resident Coordinator in Kenya. From the United Nations, I'm Melissa Fleming. This is Awake at Night. It's great to have you here in New York, Garry. 

 

[00:01:04] Garry Conille

Thank you so much for inviting me. 

 

[00:01:06] Melissa Fleming

We're speaking not too long after you started your new role as Resident Coordinator in Kenya. Can you tell me what that role has been like so far? 

 

[00:01:16] Garry Conille

Amazing. My first position as Resident Coordinator was in 2011. It was my dream job, and I had moved to Niger. And so, I've been doing development for 23 years. Kenya is attractive because it's what I like to describe as the soft spot. It's a lower-middle-income country where we still add a lot of value. So as a development practitioner closing his career, Kenya is exactly where you would want to be to be able to make a contribution, engage with people who are at a transformative stage, work with a government that's really looking forward and moving forward. 

It's also a country where the UN is really well loved. I mean, we're 13,000 staff and families. We're welcomed by the Kenyan government and the Kenyan people. So that makes the conversation so much easier. And the development partners themselves. Kenya is a hub where people cover several countries. So, every major partner is also in Kenya. So, it's really the space where everything can come together for change, transformation, and progress. I can't think of anywhere else I would like to be at this moment of my career. 

 

[00:02:36] Melissa Fleming

That's wonderful. It really is a hub for development, for humanitarian action, including in Kenya. I used to go a lot when I was serving at UNHCR [the UN Refugee Agency]. It has been a host to refugees from all over Africa for so many years, and there are these camps that need a lot of attention. But it really makes a difference when the government wants you there, right? 

 

[00:03:07] Garry Conille

Absolutely. The only other country where I've seen a government so willing to play this role is actually Colombia with the Venezuelan refugees. That's what I would compare it to. The Kenyan government is not just committed to these refugees but actually has a full programme of integration called Shirika, which looks at ways to make sure that these communities actively join the local communities. So, it's quite inspiring, actually. 

 

[00:03:35] Melissa Fleming

Having refugees in the situation of limbo for generations is just not sustainable. And actually, these experiments in Kenya have proven that if done right, it can actually aid in development of these remote areas, and the local communities actually really benefit. 

 

[00:03:56] Garry Conille

Absolutely. And in a very visible and tangible way. Since 2010, their new constitution, Kenya, has gone to this devolved situation where you have governance at the local level. And it was amazing to see that the governance at local level, so the governor, the deputy governor, and the systems in place actually embrace the idea of these communities. So, you don't have that pressure of they need to leave, they need to go. 

And you know what's amazing? These are not the richest communities in the world. These are people sharing the little they have with brothers that are in need. So, the contrast in my view and to be honest is quite amazing. I mean you have these situations where you have so much wealth and yet just the idea of refugees is seen as an incredible threat. Then you go to Kenya and you're looking at poor communities who have already very little, who have problems with climate change, drought, flooding and so forth and so on, that welcome their brothers and sisters from other countries, understanding that right now solidarity is required. This should certainly be something that we all learn from. 

You know, I met a young lady who had come in as a refugee at a very young age, who was receiving food supplements from WFP [World Food Programme] for years, and who through the support of the UN with the government had started her own small business. And she was showcasing her own small business that was becoming more and more successful, using everything from digital media to be able to present her products, to signing contracts with the potential suppliers. She had really gone from a refugee life to an entrepreneur of a small business that was being more and more successful through the support that we've been able to provide with the government. 

 

[00:05:49] Melissa Fleming

What was she selling? 

 

[00:05:51] Garry Conille

Everything from the way she packaged food goods, beverages that she made locally, all types of working with different farmers. She actually set up her own supply chain so that her business was viable. And this is one case, and there were several others. But this is a young lady that must have been in her 30s, maybe 35 or 36, and we were so impressed by that achievement that it serves to inspire and to remind us why we do what we do. 

 

[00:06:23] Melissa Fleming

Absolutely. What else in Kenya, from your perspective as Resident Coordinator, [is] the UN being called upon to do to help the Kenyan government develop? 

 

[00:06:41] Garry Conille

So as I said, Kenya is very interesting. It's a lower-middle-income country. It produces a million people a year for the job market, but it only creates about 200,000 jobs. So, its biggest problem is around job creation for the youth. It's probably one of the biggest threats to security as well as one of the most important and urgent development challenges. What do we do with all these young people that are getting ready? Obviously, it becomes even more strategic and important when you get into an electoral cycle like what we're going into now. Kenya will have elections the 12th of August of 2027 and this can become a very political, sensitive issue. So, something to watch out for. 

Obviously, you have the climate issues, this recurrent drought and flooding that Kenya is well known for. And this year we're expecting to have one of the most severe cases of El Niño with possible impacts on the lives of hundreds of thousands of Kenyan men, women, and children. So, this is an issue that requires us to work closely with government in terms of setting up prevention, preparing it. 

So, you go from the pure development aspects to the humanitarian component and through other innovative and interesting things that are happening. Kenya is at the forefront of everything data in Africa. They were able to establish mobile money and it's not something they imported. Today, almost 80% of Kenyans use digital money and digital wallets. This is just amazing. 

 

[00:08:13] Melissa Fleming

Way before. I remember them using it way before any other country like the US or in Europe were using digital money. 

 

[00:08:24] Garry Conille

And they've institutionalized it. It's just amazing to see. So, the impact of this on development is just amazing. So, Kenya for me is the place where innovation, new technology, qualified human resources and a strong partnership with the private sector. The private sector compact in Kenya is one of the most advanced in Africa. The involvement of the private sector in development is one of the most advanced I've seen anywhere in the countries I have worked. So, it's just amazing in terms of potential, but still incredibly important challenges. 

But beyond Kenya, the stability of Kenya in the region is an asset for the whole region, even beyond Kenya. Its neighbours are not always as stable as we would like and having that presence and that leadership is essential for the sub-region as well. And I would invite any investor to come and visit Kenya to look at the opportunity. I can tell you today that several banks are moving to Kenya. Several big enterprises are moving to Nairobi because of the potential. 

So, this is really the example of what I would call a win-win. This is no longer a charity. This is about looking at opportunities in a still very much globalized world with a partner that has so much to offer. If only infrastructure for 13,000 UN staff and families, which the government has embraced and will actually invest close to $1.5 billion in building the infrastructure to ensure that we, the UN families, can actually do our work and perform our task in the most effective and efficient way possible. 

 

[00:10:17] Melissa Fleming

I mean, there's going to be the biggest conference centre in all of Africa. It's under construction now. 

 

[00:10:23] Garry Conille

We've finished with the bid and we're already starting the initial steps of it and so it's just an amazing place. 

 

[00:10:30] Melissa Fleming

So it's going to be the gathering of diplomacy and all kinds of interaction with different sectors in the middle of Nairobi. 

 

[00:10:43] Garry Conille

In the middle of Nairobi, and we're looking forward to it. You know, this year, for the first time in its history, the French had organized the Africa-France forum in an English-speaking country, which was Kenya. So, it hosted in April one of the biggest gatherings around the French Africa summit, which historically had always been done in... So already it's at the forefront of... It's become the forum for these types of engagements, and I think the future is looking quite bright. 

 

[00:11:16] Melissa Fleming

I think it's because that campus of the UN headquarters is so beautiful. 

 

[00:11:23] Garry Conille

It is. And when you think about it, years ago, a Kenyan president had the vision to donate this incredible piece of land to UNEP [United Nations Environment Programme] first, global UNEP, and later UN-Habitat [United Nations Human Settlements Programme]. 

 

[00:11:36] Melissa Fleming

So UNEP is the UN Environment Programme. 

 

[00:11:38] Garry Conille

Which is the UN Environment Programme, years ago, this mass amount of land. They had the vision not knowing that years later it would become the hub for the UN in Africa. It's just an amazing story. 

 

[00:11:52] Melissa Fleming

It is so beautiful. It's green. It is full of even wildlife. There are monkeys. 

 

[00:12:01] Garry Conille

No, it's incredible. The whole construction around the compound is probably one of the most green endeavours ever. Every aspect of the buildings and construction has been done with climate in hand. They've replanted trees. They've made sure that it's solar. They kept the monkeys that come from the forest and visit us on a daily basis. They stay in the yard, and we stay in our office. It's just an amazing place to work. 

 

[00:12:34] Melissa Fleming

What else do you like about Nairobi? 

 

[00:12:37] Garry Conille

Well, for family, it's been amazing, really. I've been doing this for 20 plus years. Professionally, it is ideal because of all the reasons we've talked about and just the opportunity as a development practitioner. Familywise, it’s amazing. Schools are very good. And family comes to visit very often. I think that's been... The collegiality… Kenyans are probably one of the most welcoming people anywhere I've been before. So, you really feel at home very, very quickly. 

 

[00:13:09] Melissa Fleming

Wonderful. Well, you moved to Kenya after a number of years working in Latin America and your own country of Haiti, which is going through terrible times, and we will get into that. But I'd like to ask you, what is it about Haiti that makes you smile? 

 

[00:13:28] Garry Conille

It's probably one of the most resilient people in the world. I mean, it's been years of challenges and stress and distress, yet when you walk in the streets of Haiti, you will see these young children with their hair just tightly done, and these uniforms tightly pressed, walking for hours to go to school. So that, I think, is probably what defines Haiti more than anything else. 

But you're right, I mean, we've gone through some very difficult times. And to be honest, a lot of it is partly because of our own doing - bad leadership, a lot of corruption. But partly also because more recently the international community, because of what they call Haiti fatigue, has basically chosen to hold a blind eye to a situation that the Secretary-General himself has defined, among others, as a very, very serious humanitarian tragedy with close to 70% of people going through food insecurity, with children unable to go to school, with close a million displaced population, with properties destroyed. So, it has been a very tough few years. 

 

[00:14:52] Melissa Fleming

Well, indeed. Beyond personal to you having grown up there, having family there, but you spent a significant part of your career in Haiti, and you twice served as prime minister. Most recently in 2024. What is keeping you awake at night when you think of the situation there? 

 

[00:15:13] Garry Conille

Well, what I fear most is the loss of hope. I've seen countries turn their future, take their future in hand and transform themselves. Having worked in different countries, I've seen countries come from a very bad place and do well and find unity and create a vision and rebuild. So, I know that's possible. I'm also convinced that there was no problem that we have in Haiti for which there's not a proven solution. We know how to resolve the agriculture issues, how to put children in school, how to resolve the health issues, how to create jobs in a country that's 45 minutes away from the biggest economy in the world. We know how to do all these things. 

So, the problem is not lack of what to do, but the incapacity for reliable leadership to be able to work with its partners to actually do them. I think what that will create is a loss of hope and a loss of trust, which will lead to, I think, further instability and further tensions. I think that's the greatest fear. 

My first mission leading a UN team was in Rwanda in 2006. And I remember at that time President Kagame had just finished Vision 2020, and we were there to help transform an operational plan that would meet the MDGs. And I remember landing in Kigali and working with his team on this amazing vision that to be honest, I thought was probably way more ambitious than what it would deliver. In 2020, when I'm leaving Burundi, I went back to Rwanda before going to Jamaica. And I saw what effective leadership commitment can actually do even when a country's coming from a very, very tragic history. So, I'm a strong believer that with the right mix there's no Haitian fatality. But the reality is I think the global community and the Haitian partners have to realize that we have to do something differently than what we've done so far. 

 

[00:17:27] Melissa Fleming

Well, indeed, since the assassination of the president in 2021, large parts of Haiti are controlled by armed gangs. And isn't that the main problem that has to be solved? You said you would know how to fix almost everything else, but security is the fundamental issue, isn't it? 

 

[00:17:48] Garry Conille

And we've seen that. You know, Jamaica had Kingston controlled by gangs for years and they were able to... In fact, you know, the old part of Kingston was completely left to gangs for years. It's only recently that the private sector has started to move back, and we know what it takes. When you take... Salvador has about you know 300 police per hundred thousand population plus an army. In Haiti, I had 70 police per 100,000 population with no army. So even there, we've seen in Mexico... Colombia has 600 police per 100,000 plus an army. Brazil despite 65,000 police still has favelas where you can hardly access because they're controlled by gangs. 

So, dealing with gangs is not new and there are things we know how to do in terms of community policing, effective information. There's a whole roadmap of how you come together and regain security of your territories. But that requires resources. It requires technical expertise. It requires assets that unfortunately at this point we just don't have. 

 

[00:18:59] Melissa Fleming

Are you hopeful with the international force coming in? 

 

[00:19:03] Garry Conille

Actually, very much so. When I was there, the first struggle was to get the Security Council to approve the special mission. Since I've left, the Security Council has approved this Gang Suppression Force, which commits the UN to actually providing some support to it. So, that's already quite a bit. Now, where we worry is in the numbers, because I think the numbers are way insufficient. 

One thing I would like everybody listening to understand. You have about 6,500 people who are holding 13 million hostage. That's the situation. 6,500 gang members that today hold 13 million Haitians hostage. And you can see that the issue is more one of means than anything else and we haven't had what it takes to be able to resolve it in the most recent past. 

 

[00:19:59] Melissa Fleming

I mean Haiti is very much also in the news here in the US because there are so many Haitians who for many years got Temporary Protected Status here. What have they contributed to the US? 

 

[00:20:11] Garry Conille

Oh my goodness, Haitians have been coming to the US for years. And when you look at a per-migrant basis, you will find that you have more Haitians per migrant in the health sector than any other immigrant sector in the US. We are teachers. We are doctors. We are engineers. We are cab drivers. We are healthcare workers. We've been engaged and contributed to every aspect of New York, Miami, Boston life and the US has become almost a second home. 

There are almost no Haitians that don't have an uncle or an aunt that lives in the US. Obviously, it's been a critical lifeline because we get over $2 billion in remittances from these Haitians living abroad that send back home to be able to help Haitians survive. This situation is a situation that will have incredible consequences on hundreds of thousands of families in the US but also on millions of families in Haiti who still depend on... 

 

[00:21:15] Melissa Fleming

Because their Temporary Protected Status has been... 

 

[00:21:19] Garry Conille

Exactly. 

 

[00:21:20] Melissa Fleming

Lifted and many of them are going to be deported. 

 

[00:21:23] Garry Conille

They are going to be deported and they've lost their homes. A lot of them have been living in the US for over 20 years and know nothing else and have been constructive contributors to their communities in so many ways and for generations. And so, it's extremely, extremely sad to see. Our only hope is that somehow that will help bring Haitians together in some way, shape, or form, and so that we understand that it's important we build our country. So that we no longer have to live through situations like this. 

 

[00:21:56] Melissa Fleming

What made you decide to enter politics in Haiti? 

 

[00:22:00] Garry Conille

It was never by choice. After the earthquake, I was serving as Chief of Staff to President Clinton in his role as Special Envoy. 

 

[00:22:08] Melissa Fleming

Maybe just to remind, President Clinton was serving as Special Envoy. 

 

[00:22:12] Garry Conille

President Clinton was Special Envoy for the Secretary-General’s... 

 

[00:22:15] Melissa Fleming

He was no longer president. 

 

[00:22:16] Garry Conille

No. This was after his presidency, and he had been appointed by Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon to be Special Envoy for Haiti. So as is done, when you appoint a Special Envoy, the UN usually staff that Special Envoy. I was working with UNDP [United Nations Development Programme], and I was asked to be his Chief of Staff in that context. So, I had flown in and out of Haiti with him around the whole issue post-earthquake. 

At that time, Haiti had just had elections, and we had a new president. We were in the reconstruction phase and the president felt at that time they needed somebody who understood international development to be able to help for a short period to get the resources flowing, to get the international assistance flowing and so forth and so on. So, the president asked me to do this, but I didn't know him. We were not friends. I was not engaged politically in any way, shape, or form. But this was a critical moment in our history, and it would have been impossible to say no. 

Unfortunately, it didn't work out as well as I had hoped. So, in February I left and went back to the UN. And more recently it's the same situation. A very exceptional circumstance with no president, a struggle to find some leadership that would be seen as neutral that can help galvanize international support for Haiti, etc., etc. So, we were asked, given our profile, to come and help with this. But I've never actively pursued a political career and that may have been part of the reason why we haven't been as successful as we would have hoped. 

 

[00:23:52] Melissa Fleming

When you first flew into Haiti after the horrific, devastating earthquake, what did you see? 

 

[00:24:02] Garry Conille

It was... There are just no words. I remember that day as if it were yesterday. It was obviously, first, complete chaos. And we had seen disasters before. I was part of a tsunami response. I had seen disasters before in my professional career. But what shocked was the complete chaos, including in the aid community. I remember just getting a plane with food to people who desperately needed it became a humongous challenge because the response was so unorganized, both by the Haitians and the international partners. 

 

[00:24:42] Melissa Fleming

Well, many UN colleagues actually died themselves. 

 

[00:24:46] Garry Conille

We were dealing with the shock of having the UN leadership, some of the senior leadership... And so, it was quickly reorganizing, setting up tents, handling camps, burying 200,000, 300,000 people, losing the national palace, government that was very unsure of what to happen next and very close to elections. It was chaos. 

But in that chaos, and I think that's the untold story, most of the rebuilding of Haiti happened with Haitians - Haitians in Haiti, and Haitians living abroad. The chunk of the investment came from Haitians. The rebuilding, the cleaning up, really, really came from the Haitians in the long run. What we discovered is that after a certain number of months, probably way earlier than it should be, people start being tired, and so you find yourself very quickly on your own. So, it goes back to this just resilience and this solidarity where Haitian families [were] coming together to help each other. That was probably one of the most inspiring times also of my life, just seeing Haitians come together to be able to help each other. 

 

[00:26:05] Melissa Fleming

You must have been worried about your family that was living there. 

 

[00:26:09] Garry Conille

When we learned of the earthquake, soon after, within the next two hours after the earthquake we had known that our family had been safe. So, we lost no immediate family, but we lost a lot of friends, and we lost a lot of people we knew. So, it did have that impact. A very sad moment. 

 

[00:26:31] Melissa Fleming

Is there anything that you miss about Haiti? 

 

[00:26:35] Garry Conille

Everything. Everything. It's still home. It is still a place where we call home. Again, having seen throughout my life what's possible from a development perspective, the most frustrating part of my life has been knowing what potential we have, and this untapped potential and this incapacity for us to do. 

You know, in the 1960s, 1970s, Haitians sent thousands of teachers to Africa. In the 1960s, the UN reported that we were in a few low-income countries with the capacity of its development, meaning we had universities way before some of the countries that are doing so well in Africa today. We had the same GDP as Singapore, as Ghana, as the Dominican Republic, our neighbour. 

So, when you think about what could be, when you look at what the other islands in the Caribbean have been able to do, and when you think about... When you talk about tourism and its success in the Caribbean, you imagine that no country in the Caribbean has the history, the attractive history of the first independent black nation in the world that we do. So had we been able to make the most of the tourism opportunity that we had, we would have done at least as well as our neighbouring countries. So that's the frustrating part. 

 

[00:28:02] Melissa Fleming

What does that history mean to you, the transatlantic slave trade and Haiti's rising up to oppose it? 

 

[00:28:13] Garry Conille

It stays who we are. I guess it's where we find the strength and the courage to continue and the hope to be able to continue. It's this part of our history that reminds us that it's not always been about our misgivings or our shortcomings, that it has also been about probably one of the greatest parts of human history ever where a group of slaves came together to defeat Napoleon's army under the circumstances that we all know. 

Now the truth of the history is that we would continue to pay a price for that way after independence because there were interests in making sure that this effort would not be successful. There were a lot of people, a lot of countries, that wanted to make sure that this thirst for liberty would not spread and wanted to make sure that it failed in its infancy. So, we would be struck with a whole set of hurdles, including a debt that's the equivalent of billions of dollars today that we would carry for years and years, and generations and generations. So, it's who we are, the good, the bad, and the ugly of it. And it's what makes us find the strength and the energy to deal with challenges. And we're very proud of it. 

 

[00:29:41] Melissa Fleming

Where can you trace your ancestry? 

 

[00:29:45] Garry Conille

Well, my great-great-grandfather was in the Haitian army, the Indigenous Army. So that's as far back as we go there on my father's side. And on my mother's side, it's a bit of a mix also from the southern part of Haiti. But we go back as far as we can. Now, as you may know, a lot of Haitians come from Benin or parts of West Africa, mostly Benin. So, I've tried to look into what I can find there, but we haven't found much yet. And hoping we'll find it soon. 

 

[00:30:14] Melissa Fleming

But being part of the Indigenous Army is something to be proud of. 

 

[00:30:18] Garry Conille

It is. My father was very proud of that. 

 

[00:30:22] Melissa Fleming

Tell me about your dad. I'm so sorry. I know that he recently passed. 

 

[00:30:28] Garry Conille

Well, he was a medical doctor. He raised six children. My sense is he worked desperately to try to get at least one of us to follow in his footsteps. And at some point, I guess he had high hopes for me when he saw me going into med school. My other brothers decided to do other things with their lives. So, when I shifted to development after my last year in obstetrics, I got a Fulbright scholarship and got a master's in health policy and health administration, and that just shifted my focus to public health. 

And for years, I wasn't sure from his perspective if this was a good thing or a bad thing because he had high hopes of someone taking over the clinics. But I guess over the years, he realized that I was really doing something I enjoy and was passionate about. And of course, he was there to support in every way possible. He died at 84 years old after a year of being extremely ill. So, I guess he's at peace right now. But yes, we had an incredible childhood where he was very much present and very active in our lives and very influential. 

 

[00:31:49] Melissa Fleming

And your mom? 

 

[00:31:50] Garry Conille

My mom died very early. She died at 42. So, I was about 18. She was also in the health field. So, we had a lot of that growing up. And we didn't travel. We stayed mostly in Haiti because that was what was done at that time. And yeah, the memories we have of her were, of course, of a very, very caring and devoted mother managing four boys. So, we knew it wasn't easy some days. 

 

[00:32:26] Melissa Fleming

It must have been terrible to lose your mother that young. 

 

[00:32:31] Garry Conille

It was. Because I have two younger brothers and so it was. But my father stepped up quite well, I think, and he ensured that he made the transition as palatable as possible. But yes, losing your mother at that age is never ever fun. It was quite difficult, especially because she was really the caregiver. She was very much involved in our studies. She held the books. She made sure we were ready for school. She was very, very active and so losing her was a bit of a challenge. 

 

[00:33:08] Melissa Fleming

And it was health related. 

 

[00:33:11] Garry Conille

Very much health related. She suffered from asthma and had an asthma crisis and never... Went into a coma for several weeks and never came back from it. 

 

[00:33:22] Melissa Fleming

That's especially terrible for people working in the health system. 

 

[00:33:29] Garry Conille

I think she would have been happy to see what we did with our lives, and I think that's certainly one regret. I think that she would've really appreciated how we chose to live our professional lives. That's unfortunate. 

 

[00:33:49] Melissa Fleming

So, are you all doing different things? 

 

[00:33:52] Garry Conille

We all do different things, very much, very different things. But we're very close still, and we live in different parts of the world. We move around, and our children are very close. And that family bond is, I think, very much still there. That's our father and mother, I think.

 

 

[00:34:09] Melissa Fleming

Before you went back to Haiti in 2024, you worked for UNICEF, the UN's Children Fund in Latin America. And you worked in a region that was seeing record numbers of children migrate. Why are so many children on the move there? 

 

[00:34:28] Garry Conille

Latin America is an interesting region because it's mostly middle-income and some high-income countries caught in what we call a middle-income trap with a lot of disparities, with a lot of inequalities, creating strong pockets of poverty and also, of course, some security-related issues in certain parts that are quite serious. 

So, a lot of the movement you're seeing is usually linked to these pockets of poverty and inequality. It's mostly people that are looking for a better life and greater opportunity. And obviously they would take the very risky road up north all the way up to the border. So, we were involved, very much so, with the different agencies in making sure that we would provide any kind of help and support that would be required for these different migrants as they move forward. 

 

[00:35:25] Melissa Fleming

The best would be to try to prevent them from moving at all, because the journeys are so risky and dangerous. 

 

[00:35:34] Garry Conille

Especially because very little people actually want to leave home. Most people would prefer to stay where they are. The second issue is this is something that's within our reach. This is something collectively we can do. We can help improve the lives and the circumstances of the people so that they're productive in their own communities and in their own environment. So, yes, it was very, very sad to see. 

You know, they would cross Panama where we had centres close to the Colombian border coming straight out of the forest under circumstances that were indescribable [inaudible]. And you see this is what worries me is without the involvement of the UN and its partners, the circumstances of these families would have been catastrophic despite the goodwill and the commitment of a lot of the governments throughout the process, including Costa Rica, Panama, Colombia, and others. This journey would have been completely disastrous had the UN and other partners not been present to provide everything from basic psychosocial healthcare to children, to water, to food, to papers. They would lose their papers in the road, and they would turn up to some of these countries with absolutely no way of identifying themselves. So, it does require that collective commitment. 

 

[00:37:03] Melissa Fleming

And there were really young children. 

 

[00:37:07] Garry Conille

We've seen everything from babies to teenagers. We had all of that going up and down. And UNICEF was of course very active in mobilizing assets and resources to be able to help. 

 

[00:37:18] Melissa Fleming

I understand you visited the Darién jungle between Columbia and Panama. Can you just describe what that area looks like and what kind of stories you heard from families in the region. 

 

[00:37:29] Garry Conille

The most dangerous moments started before they arrived there. And they were going through the jungle where they were faced with all types of traffickers, rapists, murderers. So, making it out of that jungle was where you would hear the worst stories. So, we would be at the Darién, and we would see them arrive in these small boats, which cost, by the way, a fortune. Because remember the whole trafficking meant that some people were making millions of dollars off the process. It would cost anywhere between $1,000 to $5,000 to be able to go through the route because you needed people to walk you through it. 

So, they would arrive in these small boats, and we would be there to greet them and care for them and assist them in getting their papers and providing them with lodging when necessary and helping them make the decisions they need to make with regards to their lives and their families' lives. 

 

[00:38:29] Melissa Fleming

I believe you spoke to a man who was forced to swim with his wife and his child. Can you describe that incident? 

 

[00:38:41] Garry Conille

One of the times I went there, we met a man who in crossing was with a child. And the story he told us is at one point the child fell in the water. And so, the wife did not know how to swim. And so, he's making the difficult decision to try to get and save the child and yet to continue to hold on to the wife. Now, the end of the story is not a bad one. Eventually, they all would make it out. 

But it gives you the sense of what these people have to go through before they can get to where they get to. And I think the lesson here is anyone who's a father should imagine, or a mother, should try to imagine what would cause you to make the decision to put your family through that level of risk. These are not people that are looking to come for a vacation. These are people that are desperately leaving a state of complete desperation without hope and wanting to give their families just a little bit of hope. 

And so, in my view there are several ways we can come together. As you rightly point out, we need to help the governments invest in improving the communities, the circumstances of these communities by building infrastructure, schools, creating jobs, so forth and so on. So, there will be less incentive. Continuing to provide legal ways for people to migrate when they feel they have to. But certainly, continuing to protect the right of people who choose to migrate when they have feel they have to. That loss of protection is, I think, the most irresponsible thing that we as leaders can do. 

 

[00:40:30] Melissa Fleming

How has your training as a medical doctor kind of helped you in all of this? I mean, you've worked for UNICEF with children in desperate situations. You've worked on development, migration, humanitarian issues. What is the doctor, public health training, where does that all fit in? 

 

[00:40:50] Garry Conille

Sometimes it's been a bit problematic. You know, when you start off as a doctor, you have immediate gratification. You have a sick patient. You did a procedure and the person feels better. So, you can see the direct relationship between the acts and the consequences. In development, of course, it's not the case. You're doing a little bit, and someone would come later and do a little bit and eventually you hope that it will lead to the improvements that you work so hard for. 

So, part of what I've taken from my profession as a doctor is to try to make the development more concrete in terms of what we can achieve and what success looks like and how it's defined so that I can have a better sense of the contribution I made. When you work in a country like Haiti, when you're in a ward as an obstetrician and you see women and women coming out with placenta previa, with obstetric difficulties that you know are preventable you get tired of treating the same thing over and over again. You sort of say to yourself, 'There's got to be a way to reduce the number of women that are coming in with this problem.' 

And that automatically leads you to understanding, you know, sort of the causal effects of some of the issues you're seeing and how you resolve them. And you quickly find out that yes, all these women, especially in a poor country, don't have to arrive at your doorstep in this state. That you can do things upstream to reduce the risk of these issues. And that becomes the interesting and passionate part of public health. 

 

[00:42:28] Melissa Fleming

How do you deal with so much suffering personally? 

 

[00:42:32] Garry Conille

It's been great to have a very stable family. I just have an amazing wife for 31 years and she's been a rock. So that's been helpful. But it's also been very helpful to just drown yourself in solutions and thinking through what works. And I guess that also comes from being a doctor. When a patient comes into the room, you're already thinking about what you need to do to solve the problem, much less about the level of suffering, the emotional part of it. You're focused on what do I need to do to make it better? I found that to be extremely helpful. So, most of the time is really looking at what's the problem and how could we make it better? And that's been quite inspiring. 

I guess one last thing I'll say on this also, part of the thing I've loved about working in the UN is the incredible people I've had the opportunity to work with. So, it's that mix of dealing with tragedy and stress, but also seeing the next day the incredible capacity, achievement, commitment of people who really want to make a difference. And so, in the middle of that you find your balance. 

 

[00:43:47] Melissa Fleming

I love that. Drowning in solutions. We need to drown ourselves in solutions, not in problems. 

 

[00:43:57] Garry Conille

I found that to be a much more useful exercise. 

 

[00:43:59] Melissa Fleming

I think this is original. This is an original. Maybe it's the name of a book one day, a memoir. Somebody told me you also like music. 

 

[00:44:13] Garry Conille

That's been a while. Yes, again, my mother, we started off, we played the piano quite a bit when we were younger. Now moving around, unfortunately, it was difficult to have a piano everywhere we went. We missed that a little bit. And we also, I have twin daughters and none of them went into the piano, so we missed that. But yes, we were very, very much... 

 

[00:44:33] Melissa Fleming

You don't play anymore. 

 

[00:44:34] Garry Conille

It's been at least 20 years, and we missed that a little bit. Maybe when I retire. 

 

[00:44:40] Melissa Fleming

Well, I mean, you told me that your dad was really hoping that one of his children would be a doctor. Are you really hoping that your twin daughters will follow in your footsteps in any way? 

 

[00:44:56] Garry Conille

No, that ship sailed. When they were about a few months old, I bought them soccer shoes hoping they would play soccer. That didn't work. No, they're fully grown now. We're very, very proud of them, but they chose to do other things. And we're very close. And they've traveled with us all over the world. And they're very sensitive to... They love Africa where they spent a lot of their time growing up. But no, none of them chose to do the medical profession. 

 

[00:45:27] Melissa Fleming

Or be a UN civil servant. 

 

 

[00:45:30] Garry Conille

That's a good one. It's still early days. 

 

[00:45:32] Melissa Fleming

It's still early days. They could. 

 

[00:45:34] Garry Conille

That's it. I can see them doing something international, but I don't know if it will be the UN per se. No, it's been remarkable, really. And for those of your listeners, the opportunity to have been a part of this transformational age. You know, when I joined, something like four out of 10 African countries were middle-income. Today six out of ten. And that's the point. When you look at the aggregate, we've seen that development works, and we were a small part of it. We've seen incredible people. So, we saw the Member States agree to the ambition of the Sustainable Development Goals, which was amazing. And we were there working with the team and trying to put this together with the DSG [Deputy Secretary-General]. So, we've seen... 

You know, if you're not following, when you hear Africa, you think about Sudan and you say, this has been happening for years. You don't know the progress that Ghana has made. You don't know the progress that Kenya has made, or what's happening in Senegal. Or, you know, how well some of the South African countries are doing for their people and what's out there in terms of opportunity. And I think it's very important for us to be able to tell that story as well. 

 

[00:46:54] Melissa Fleming

Garry, I'm sure that you will tell that story from your role in Kenya, and it was really a pleasure to speak to you and to learn about your life. 

 

[00:47:03] Garry Conille

Thank you so much for inviting me. 

 

[00:47:06] Melissa Fleming

Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world a better and safer place. 

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please take the time to review us. It helps more people to find the show. 

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell and to my colleagues at the UN: Katerina Kitidi, Roberta Politi, Geneva Damayanti, Abby Vardeleon, Alison Corbet, Laura Rodriguez de Castro, Eric Balgley, Jason Candler, Benji Candelario, Anzhelika Devis, Tulin Battikhi, Bissera Kostova, Brianna Rowe, Joon Park, and Taeyoung Lee. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier.