Gonzalo Vargas Llosa | What next for Syria’s refugees (S11-E1)

 

 

 

[00:00:00] Melissa Fleming

Too often when you work with refugees, you're dealing with people fleeing for their lives. But sometimes you get to see them come home. 

 

[00:00:07] Gonzalo Vargas Llosa

There were these long, long lines of cars of Syrian refugees coming back from Lebanon. So many of them stopped the car the moment that they entered Syria. They got out of the car. They kissed the ground. They kissed the floor. And they were saying, you know, 'We are so happy to be back in this new Syria.' 

 

[00:00:40] Melissa Fleming

Gonzalo Vargas Llosa has worked for the UN Refugee Agency for much of his career. These days he is UNHCR Representative to Syria. From the United Nations, I'm Melissa Fleming. This is Awake at Night. Welcome, Gonzalo. And so good to see you again. 

 

[00:01:06] Gonzalo Vargas Llosa

Thank you very much for the invitation, Melissa. It's great to see you again too. 

 

[00:01:09] Melissa Fleming

Well, I'm here in our studio in New York, and you're in Damascus, and we are recording this interview just a few months after the Syrian President Bashar al-Assad stepped down and fled to Russia. He was in power for 24 years and presided over a bloody civil war. It was such a dramatic moment. Can you tell me how you felt, where you were when you heard the news. 

 

[00:01:36] Gonzalo Vargas Llosa

I was here in Damascus on the 8th of December and on the days preceding the 8th of December with a small group of colleagues from the UN. And we were waiting anxiously, I guess with a mix, with a combination of... Well, why not say it - fear, fear of the unknown. But also, a sense of excitement, because it was clear that something very huge was about to happen. And so, we were waiting at the hotel where we live in Damascus. And well, we could hear outside a lot of shooting. But most of it, it was clear was celebratory. Because as you know, there were no big fights to take over Damascus. But we could hear really a deafening noise of bullets flying everywhere for several hours starting in the very early morning, starting at about four or five in the morning. I think it was around maybe 11 a.m. or midday. 

The then HTS [Hayat Tahrir al-Sham] and also some commanders from the south, from Daraa, well, they came into the hotel and they asked to meet the UN. And so, a small group of us went downstairs to have the first contact with, well, with those who had basically taken power. It was a... Well, they looked quite scary, to be honest, but their attitude was exactly the contrary to how they looked. It was a very... I mean, a very short, very polite meeting where basically they said to us, 'Well, you know, we are here. As you know, we have taken over Damascus and we wanted to come and meet you and to tell you that we are not going to harm you, that you are going to be safe here with us. And that we want to collaborate and work with you.' And then after a few minutes they left and that was the beginning. It was an extraordinarily historic moment, I think, for all of us. I think that small group that went down to the lobby that day will never forget that moment. 

 

[00:04:10] Melissa Fleming

Can you just paint the picture of what it was like before. Because you have been serving in Syria for quite some time. What was it like operating as UNHCR under the Assad regime? If you could just describe kind of the difference in how the people are now feeling. 

 

[00:04:33] Gonzalo Vargas Llosa

You know, I arrived here about a year ago. And since the first day that I arrived, I mean, every moment of the day or of the night, we felt that we were not alone, that we were being listened to, perhaps watched. There were, I think, very legitimate fears that our meeting rooms were bugged and that even our rooms in the hotel where we live were bugged. There were either microphones or even perhaps cameras. So I think that says it all. That is how we lived. Of course, if you translate that into how it was for the common Syrian people. Because of course we were scared. We were hesitant. We were extraordinarily cautious in what we said. But I mean, after all, we are diplomats under protection. So, imagine what it was for a Syrian in the street. 

And that is, I think, the biggest difference, the biggest positive difference. The freedom that they feel now to say what they think and to say it to us, to say in the street. I mean, as you know, since the 8th of December, we've seen a number of demonstrations in the streets. Pro-government, but also demonstrations against the government. So, people feel free to express whatever opinion they have. And this is something that they haven't been able to do, at least inside Syria, for so many years. And they were always holding back. And so that for me has perhaps been the most moving part of life post-Assad - to see Syrians feeling free to say what they think. Now they have tasted it, and they love it. 

 

[00:06:40] Melissa Fleming

That oppression, that fear was what led six million Syrians to flee their country because of the war. And then it was a very violent situation inside the country. There were over seven million Syrians internally displaced. In that sense, you know, in terms of just the displacement and this new atmosphere, what has changed? Are people coming back? 

 

 

[00:07:10] Gonzalo Vargas Llosa

Yes, I mean, people are coming back. So far, we're getting now close to the 380,000 figure in terms of returns from the region since the 8th of December. Now, one of the most moving images that I have seen so far in this past year in Syria was when with a group of colleagues we went to the border, to the border with Lebanon, in this case a day or two after Damascus had fallen. And there were these long, long lines of cars of Syrian refugees coming back from Lebanon. And, you know, so many of them stopped the car the moment that they entered Syria. They got out of the car. They kissed the ground. They kissed the floor. And they were saying, you know, 'We are so happy to be back in this new Syria.' And those are images that will also, I think, stay with me for many, many years to come. 

 

[00:08:22] Melissa Fleming

I can imagine. I remember seeing your social media posts on that and your own pictures. You don't get to see those moments very often with people stuck in exile, you know, sometimes even for decades. But to be there to watch the moment when people can finally return home and what that home means. 

 

[00:08:46] Gonzalo Vargas Llosa

I mean, every story, of course, of every returnee that we meet is a different one. But I think that what they all have in common is really that hope. The people that we have been meeting at the borders, the returnees... There are people who have been away for 10, 12, 13, 14 years. In many cases also children who were born outside. Children, small ones, but also children who are 10, 11 years old and who'd never been to Syria, who've never been their country. But all those that we interact with, all those children actually feel very Syrian, even though they may have been born in Lebanon or they may be born abroad. I think there's also an enormous sense of pride in being a Syrian. 

And I think that the challenge is what do we do to maintain that hope because I don't think that hope can be taken for granted. I don't think that that hope is necessarily never ending. It won't necessarily last for very long unless a number of things happen on the political front, but perhaps just as importantly also on the economic and financial front. And if those things are not done, there is a risk that that hope will turn to frustration, to pessimism, to disappointment and to sadness. 

 

 

[00:10:28] Melissa Fleming

You probably met many who came back, not just with that hope, but also in search of missing family members and friends who they hadn't heard from and who may have perished in the notorious Assad prisons. Have you met anybody who has come in search for family members? And what did they tell you? 

 

[00:10:52] Gonzalo Vargas Llosa

We have seen some of those reunions taking place inside returnees' homes. And this, again, is also one of those amazing images that I think all of us will keep in our minds for a very long time. At the same time, these are the contradictions. Some of those scenes that we have seen of absolute joy of family members, you know, reuniting and crying. Seeing their family members after so long, and in many cases, family members that they thought had died. But they're taking place in homes that are destroyed, that in many cases don't have roofs. People returning, finding that their homes are destroyed. Not having the possibility, the income, the resources to rebuild or at least to repair. And so, they are putting up tents. 

For me, those scenes really illustrate what is wrong. I talk about the need for that hope to be kept alive. And that I think is the responsibility of the international community. The fact is that the interim authority, the interim government, does not have the resources on its own to fix that house, to fix the school, to provide income. I'm sure that they will sometime down the road, but at the moment they're not. They depend entirely on the international community to do that. And that is not happening. 

 

[00:12:41] Melissa Fleming

This would be the opportunity to really invest so that they can take off. But there are so many complexities in Syria. We could spend this whole podcast talking about them, but I do need to mention the deadly clashes between people loyal to Bashar al-Assad, especially from his Alawite group and government forces in the region of Latakia. I believe many of them are also leaving Syria. Are there fears of another exodus? 

 

[00:13:14] Gonzalo Vargas Llosa

Look, let's hope that that is not the case, Melissa. We have seen basically two movements out of Syria since the 8th of December. In the days immediately following, there were about 60,000 or 70,000 Syrians who left because they were scared. They were mostly, of course, minorities - Christians, Shias, Alawites. We interacted with many of them at the border. In most cases, I would say in the vast majority of cases, what they told us was, 'We're leaving because we're afraid. Nothing has been done to us. We have not been subjected to violence, but we are scared about the arrival of that new group that has taken power, basically the HTS.' So, they were leaving as a precautionary measure. 

Now, what we have seen more recently is that the numbers are about 25,000-30,000 who have left as a result of the recent events in the coastal areas. That movement is, of course, somewhat different. Because during that period there was violence. There were killings. I think the key now is to see how the interim government handles this situation. And to answer your question, 'Are there fears that there will be more people leaving?' I think it will depend, of course, very much on how the interim government handles this. I think we see it as positive that Interim President Al-Sharaa has set up, as you know, a number of mechanisms to hold the perpetrators of that violence accountable. It's good that he has set up those mechanisms, but now we need to see the results. We need individuals being held accountable, justice being done. And what we need to see is that what happened in the coastal area does not repeat itself. 

 

 

[00:15:42] Melissa Fleming

What is keeping you awake at night when you think of Syria right now? 

 

[00:15:47] Gonzalo Vargas Llosa

I think that, of course, the situation of minorities is an extraordinarily important one and one that we devote quite a lot of time dealing with because, of course, we are present in the coastal areas in Latakia. We have an office. We have staff and we have been trying to do everything possible to provide protection and assistance. But perhaps I would say the thing that keeps me most awake at night it's really the fear that we may miss an extraordinary opportunity. Syrians have been waiting for Assad to go and for somebody, for something to replace Assad. They've been waiting over a decade, and it has happened. 

And I will go to the issue of refugees because that's our mandate. Millions of them have been waiting for that to happen so that they could go back home. But even with a perfect... Let's say that the political process over the coming months and years is a perfect one. Even if that is the case, unless the material conditions in Syria improve, many, perhaps I would dare to say most, will not return. Because they don't just need a perfect democracy. They need food. They need schools for their children to go to. They need to be able to make a living. 

And that extraordinary window of opportunity that has opened, we cannot miss it. We cannot miss it by not investing in the next few months as quickly as possible, as I said, in more humanitarian aid and at least the beginning of early recovery-related activities. Something which at the moment is not happening. Many, many hundreds of thousands, millions perhaps, would like to return in 2025. My fear, what keeps me awake at night is that unless they see some progress on the material side, you know, many of them may change their minds. That they may say, 'Actually, you know what. Assad has gone but my village is even poorer now, or at least as poor now as it was during the time of Assad, and therefore I cannot go back. I need to feed my family. My responsibility is to feed my family. So even though the conditions in Lebanon or in Jordan may be very difficult, I have a better chance of keeping my family alive than if I go back to Syria. And therefore, I won't go back.' 

That would be a catastrophic scenario. It would be one of the biggest missed opportunities of recent times. And so, I very much hope that that doesn't happen. There is still time for the international community to act to make sure that that scenario doesn't happen. And that the other scenario, that scenario of hope of millions of refugees and of internally displaced coming back home materializes. That is the scenario that needs to materialize. But we need to act fast because that window of opportunity that I refer to, I don't think, Melissa, is a very long one. 

 

 

 

[00:19:29] Melissa Fleming

Absolutely. Well, I think we'll all be appealing together for that international support. It's also in the interests of the international community. It is an investment also in stability, in humanity. And those countries that have been hosting refugees for so many years also, it's time for them to be able to focus on their own economies and people. So, let's hope. I really want to get to your life story, though now, Gonzalo. You've been with UNHCR for more than 30 years. And I just wonder... Briefly, what made you decide to work with refugees in the first place? 

 

[00:20:15] Gonzalo Vargas Llosa

You know, I don't know. When I was at university, the thing that I loved most in life was books. And so, I studied literature. I went to university in London. I did a BA first. 

 

[00:20:32] Melissa Fleming

May I just break in here then? Because I was going to go to that, but I didn't realize that you had studied literature. And I did want to mention you probably were, that you come from a prominent literary family. That you're from Peru, and that your father is the Peruvian writer Mario Vargas Llosa, who won the Nobel Prize for Literature. So, it looks like you were actually on that path studying literature in London but veered off from it. So maybe that's the question. Why did you not go into the footsteps of your father and become a writer and instead became a humanitarian? 

 

[00:21:14] Gonzalo Vargas Llosa

I wasn't sure that I wanted to be a writer, but what I knew is that the thing I loved most in life was books. So, I began to study literature at university. By the time I finished my BA, I was convinced that I didn't want to be writer. But I also had another passion in life at that time and it was related also to books, which was languages. And so, when I did my masters in the UK too, I also did translation and interpretation. 

I think I was halfway through my masters in London, and I went back to Peru to see my family, as I did three times a year. My father, who was living in Lima at the time he asked me whether I could accompany him to visit an orphanage in a city called Ayacucho. Ayacucho, for those who know a little bit about Peruvian recent history, was the epicentre of the terrorist guerrilla movement in Peru in the 1980s. And my father was supporting financially this orphanage in Ayacucho, which sheltered both orphans from military families, but also orphans from families of terrorists or people accused of terrorism. And he was supporting this orphanage, and he told me, 'Can you accompany me for a couple of days to Ayacucho because I want to visit this orphanage that I am supporting.' 

And, you know, I had only gone back to Peru for one week. I was at the middle of university and really the last thing on my mind was to spend almost half of my vacation in Peru going to Ayacucho to visit an orphanage. I wanted to spend the whole week with my family in Lima and, of course, with my friends doing what one does when one is, you know, 19, 20 years old. But I said yes to him. I always found it difficult to say no to my father. So, we went to Ayacucho. 

And I think that something happened to me in those hours that we spent in that orphanage. Because I remember that on the plane back from Ayacucho to Lima, I told my father, you know, 'Don't worry. I'm going to go back to London and I'm going to finish my university. But I can tell you now that, one, I don't want to be a writer for sure. Second, I don't want to be a translator or an interpreter. I want to do humanitarian work. I don't know where, or I don’t know how.' 

And I remember that he said to me with this nice, I mean, fatherly smile, but he said, you know, 'I think you're a very impressionable young man, Gonzalo. And I'm pretty sure that by the time you get to London, you would have forgotten all about this visit and you will go on to do what you were planning to do.' Which in this case was to become a translator or an interpreter. So, I went back to London. But those images, those feelings that I had in the orphanage didn't go away. On the contrary, I think they grew in me in the months that followed, and therefore I decided to join the United Nations. 

 

 

 

[00:25:15] Melissa Fleming

Okay, I'm going to test you. Rapid fire. Tell me all the countries you've served in. 

 

[00:25:20] Gonzalo Vargas Llosa

I did Pakistan and Afghanistan first, then I did Croatia and then Bosnia. Then I went to Geneva where I spent five years. After that, I went to Panama. After Panama, I did do New York. Many, many years after those obligations, but I did make it to New York. After that I went the Dominican Republic, then to London, then to Brussels. And now to Syria. And somewhere in the middle of that long career also I've had two long missions - one to Libya and the other to Darfur. 

 

[00:26:00] Melissa Fleming

I remember when I first joined UNHCR, I was based in Geneva in the headquarters, and I met all kinds of people like you who had served all over the world in war zones and in very complex and often very dangerous places. And I would say, 'Oh, you must be so relieved to be in this beautiful, stable Geneva country.' And they were like, 'Oh, I cannot wait to get back into the field. I'm so bored.' Is this your nature too? I mean, it seemed that there was a particular type of person who chose this career to work for UNHCR because they felt most inspired, most needed, most affected when they were directly serving refugees and displaced people. 

 

[00:26:54] Gonzalo Vargas Llosa

Yes, absolutely. I think that this is why I joined, and this is why I have stayed. And there is absolutely no doubt that the most rewarding moments, the most inspiring moments... Also, I have to say the saddest moments in my career have been when I have been in the field, when I have been in difficult situations and most importantly, in contact, in daily contact with the people that we serve. 

 

[00:27:22] Melissa Fleming

But it's also... And I've talked to so many people in this profession. It's very straining on personal life. It's really difficult to have, to maintain... You have to have a very tolerant partner and also children who understand. I don't know... How has it worked for you in your personal life being able to pursue such a career like this? 

 

 

[00:27:46] Gonzalo Vargas Llosa

Of course, the most satisfying, the most rewarding, the most fascinating has been to be able to interact with those people that we serve. And well, hopefully also to see how our work makes a difference in their lives. Possibly what has kept me going for 34 years. 

But I think there's another element also which for me has been fascinating about this job. I have found myself throughout my career in the middle of history, of very important history. And it's the case today. So, the change from the Assad regime, the fall of Assad. This will be taught in schools and in universities for decades to come. And I was here. I was there when it happened. And I could mention several other instances in the past 34 years, whether it was in the former Yugoslavia, in Sarajevo in '94, Sarajevo in '95 when the Dayton Accords, when the Dayton Agreements were signed. You know, and I could go on. Being in the middle of history. 

I would not be so pretentious as to say participating in making that history. But at least being and witnessing the making of history is something that, I mean, how many people get to do that and to see that? Very, very few. And we, you and I, and our colleagues in the UN and the broader humanitarian community are among the very, very few who get to see and do that. So, in that sense, we are extraordinarily privileged. Certainly, I consider myself to be extraordinarily privileged. 

I think on the downside, Melissa, and you hinted at this, is personal life. I wish that I could have had both. I wish I could've had the extraordinary experience that I have had. I don't regret any choice that I made during those 34 years. But what it also meant was that my marriage didn't survive. When I decided that I wanted to join the UN, it was at the same time as I was getting engaged. And so, you know, at that time, and I am of course not young. 

At that time, you still had to ask permission to the father. You asked... You have to ask for the hand. So, when I went to see my future father-in-law, I told him, 'I would like to marry your daughter. I live in London now. I'm finishing my studies, but I will go to New York to work for the UN in New York, and I will marry your daughter and take her there.' Of course, she had given her green light to this proposal before I went to see her father. That was just a formality, evidently. 

But what happened in practice, as I mentioned before, of course, I didn't go to New York. I went to Afghanistan, and from there I went Bosnia. All these were places where, of course, I couldn't take my wife. We did get married. Incredibly, she actually still got married to me. But of course, that marriage didn't survive. It survived for a few years miraculously, but after that it didn't survive. It also meant that I have spent an enormous amount of time away from my children. The truth is that I didn't see my children grow up. At least the first 10 years or so I spent most of the time away from them. And that was very difficult for me, but it was also very difficult for them. I wish I could have had both lives. It didn't prove to be possible. 

Now, on a more positive note, it's very interesting because I've been very fortunate to... In spite of that, in spite of the fact that I was a very absent father, a visiting father, somebody who would come every two or three months to see his children for a few days and then would go back to work in a faraway country. In spite of all that, I've been able to develop a very good relationship with my children who are no longer children now. One of them in fact turned 30 just yesterday and the other one is 28. I have a fantastic relationship with them. Because they have been incredibly understanding that I needed to do what I ended up doing, that that was important for my fulfillment, for my happiness. 

Even though there was probably... No, not probably. There was an element of selfishness. I don't do what I have been doing for 34 years just to help people. Yes, of course it is to help people, but I also do it because it fills me. And that has an element of selfishness, of putting myself above others. In this case, above the family. And they understand that. And I've always been very clear with them in why I chose to do what I do, and that there was an element [inaudible]. But they have been amazingly understanding, and I have a fantastic relationship with them. 

So, that is something I think that I always tell anybody who asks me about my private life and including young people who want to join the UN. And who asked me exactly the same question. I can't tell how their stories will play out, but I can tell them how my own played out. And even though there was suffering, longing, when it came to my family, it ended on a happy note. At least my relationship certainly with my children. As for my ex-wife, we have a very civilized and healthy relationship now. So that's also positive. 

 

[00:34:22] Melissa Fleming

Can you imagine just finally a world without refugees? 

 

[00:34:27] Gonzalo Vargas Llosa

Well, I would hope so. I think that's what we need to aspire, dream of. I don't think that I will see that world during my time, my remaining time with UNHCR, but at least I hope that perhaps my children do. That would be one of the biggest successes of humanity if we achieve that. So, I said, I am an eternal optimist. So, I hope, I believe that that will happen one day, even if I don't get to see it myself. 

 

[00:35:08] Melissa Fleming

It's what the UN itself aspires to, and that is the absence of refugees means that we live in a world with peace, where people live in dignity, and also on a healthy planet. So, thank you for your service. Thanks for all that you have done on behalf of refugees, Gonzalo. And all that you are doing in Syria right now at this incredibly important moment in Syria's history, this period of transition and this window of opportunity. And yeah, all support to you and thank you so much for taking the time. 

 

[00:35:47] Gonzalo Vargas Llosa

 

Thank you so much, Melissa. It was a pleasure. 

 

[00:35:51] Melissa Fleming

Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world a better and safer place. 

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please take the time to review us. It helps more people find the show.

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell, to Adam Paylor and to my colleagues at the UN: Katerina Kitidi, Roberta Politi, Carlos Macias, Abby Vardeleon, Laura Rodriguez De Castro, Anzhelika Devis, Tulin Battikhi and Bissera Kostova. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier.