Alvaro Lario | Planting hope in remote communities (S13-E13)

 

 

 

[00:00:00] Melissa Fleming

My guest this week works to help farmers thrive all over the world. 

 

[00:00:05] Alvaro Lario

All of these people are extremely entrepreneurial. They’re extremely creative. They have a lot of willingness and energy. Many times, it's just the lack of opportunity or the lack of means, and I think that's what makes this job or this role very rewarding. 

 

[00:00:28] Melissa Fleming

Alvaro Lario is President of the UN's International Fund for Agricultural Development. From the United Nations, I'm Melissa Fleming. This is Awake at Night. Welcome, Alvaro. It's great to have you here. You are from Spain, and I understand you come from a family of farmers, but before we get into that, I'd like to ask you briefly, what is the International Fund for Agricultural Development? What does IFAD actually do? 

 

[00:01:09] Alvaro Lario

Well, thank you. Thank you, Melissa, for having us today. So, IFAD is with the World Bank and the IMF [International Monetary Fund], you could argue, but IFAD is the only other financial institution in the UN. And we work in the "first mile". So that means we invest only in rural areas. And many times, the only economic opportunities that happen in these rural areas relate to agriculture. 

Especially, what we try to provide is the economic opportunities of going from subsistence farming to actually small-scale production across the entire value chain. One of the things we measure is, for example, how much do we raise the income of many of these rural communities? How many jobs, employment do we create? How can we also increase the production productivity? But above anything else, I think that economic opportunity and hope of really having a certain income that can change your life is our main focus. 

 

 

[00:02:01] Melissa Fleming

So, really it is to make farming a viable business. 

 

[00:02:05] Alvaro Lario

Yes, I would say it's the most important. And nowadays you have all of this, whether it's food shocks [or] input shocks like the ones we're seeing currently, but also, I would say climate shocks. And generally, many of these farmers, what they are lacking is access to finance, access to water, access to healthy soil, access to even a governance that allows them to have a certain scale to really make it a business. So that's what we work with governments, with farmers' organizations and also with multilateral development banks, public development banks, the local private sector. So actually, we are now using our own money to invest in small SMEs to really make all of this happen in practice. 

 

[00:02:44] Melissa Fleming

So, what are the basics that farmers need? I mean, what are the basics in today's world that they need? 

 

[00:02:50] Alvaro Lario

I would say, for example, a recent investment I was in in northern Côte d'Ivoire as an example, very close to actually borders where things are getting very complicated. And we have a number there of 1,000 women which have different plots of lands. And actually, a lot of the... It's mango plantations. A lot of them are actually going rotten because of a disease. So, we come in. We bring them together through a cooperative. We support them in trying to have also some solutions for those diseases. And at the same time, we create also the transformation or value addition of drying a lot of that mango, packaging it, and then being able to sell it, for example, in this case, 70% of it to Switzerland. This is an example where you bring 1,000 women together, which makes a big difference in a community, and you create a viable business plan and an ability of really transforming a lot of that produce in the communities. 

 

[00:03:44] Melissa Fleming

So, it isn't really a cookie-cutter approach. It is really looking at very specific situations. Mangoes, a thousand women running a farm area, that's kind of unusual. So how do you find these situations? 

 

[00:03:57] Alvaro Lario

So, I think this is one of the complexities when we talk about agricultural food systems. Actually, the complexity is that many of the challenges vary a lot, but the challenge is that we work in very rural areas. So, in many of them actually the access even to connectivity, the access to water, the access to finance does not exist. So, I think it depends very much on what type of countries and regions we're talking about and in some cases imagine for example Sudan or Haiti. Actually, we continue now working still in Sudan. We actually invest. It's development. We were working in 12 regions. Now only in five. But we continue providing them [with] the ability of growing food, but also not only consuming, but also creating a market. And I think that's fundamental also in Haiti. 

I think it's providing hope, but hope grounded on really an economic opportunity and the ability of having an income. And I think that's the fundamental part that perhaps we come with a different angle there. Especially because we're trying also to promote and invest with the private sector. We were the first fund or programme in the United Nations to have a credit rating. So, now there's investors who are investing pension funds, actually in IFAD, lending us money. And at the same time, we're also not only providing concessional loans to governments, but actually now also co-investing with the private sector. So, all of this is why I came to the UN and that's what really excited me, the ability of transforming an institution and really putting all the skills or knowledge I had to really for a purpose. 

 

[00:05:22] Melissa Fleming

It doesn't seem like a typical approach to assistance. I mean, you see people in need typically. You go out and give them some know-how, some assistance, some tools, maybe some seeds, and then you go away. This is an investment in self-reliance. 

 

[00:05:40] Alvaro Lario

Yes, I would say probably in resilience, self-reliance, the ability... You could argue at a very global level - food sovereignty. But yeah, it's about really creating that type of economic opportunity in remote areas, which is much more complicated and also in the least developed countries and especially in fragile-affected countries. So, one third of our portfolio is currently in fragile-affected countries. So, very dire situations, remote areas and trying to create economic opportunities that can last when we are not there anymore. And I think that's the most important part. Many of our investment projects actually are six, seven years. We are there with the communities, supporting them in a lot of the implementation and creating those conditions with the government, with the farmers' organizations. So, it's a model that actually can last when we are not there anymore. The sustainability that many times we talk about is fundamental. 

 

 

[00:06:30] Melissa Fleming

I mean, you mentioned that there are actual investors in this fund. So, it's not just World Bank, IMF because their raison d'être is to invest to do good in the world. It is actually making good business sense for pension funds? 

 

[00:06:45] Alvaro Lario

Well, actually, with our credit rating, we are currently issuing what you could argue SDG [Sustainable Development Goals] bonds, blue bonds, green bonds, SDG bonds, women's bonds, nutrition bonds. So actually, you can very much target what you want. 

 

[00:07:01] Melissa Fleming

Those exist? All of those bonds? 

 

[00:07:02] Alvaro Lario

All of those exist, yes. We have been issuing around a billion since we got the credit rating. So, it's a way for many of the pension funds also to invest for a purpose. We have a financing framework where we show all of those impact measures. And they can actually claim that those are real and that they are supporting whether it's women, whether it is nutrition, whether it's a certain SDG. So, I think that's the beauty of connecting actual global capital markets to this "first mile". And I think that's something that is quite unique within the UN and I think we are quite proud. 

 

[00:07:36] Melissa Fleming

I mean, you mentioned that all of this opportunity, this kind of investment model is the reason that you decided to join the UN. 

 

[00:07:47] Alvaro Lario

Yes, I mean, it was just for me a fantastic opportunity of making all of this happen. Obviously, I was coming before from the private sector arm of the World Bank, private sector, academia, business school. I was also investing in markets. A very different type of environment, but I really thought that with those skills I could really make a difference and I could really change an organization. And I think that's what we have been doing over the last years. 

 

[00:08:13] Melissa Fleming

I mean, in academia or in business, you're rarely meeting the people who you're studying, and you're not really having a direct impact. So, is that part of the attraction? 

 

[00:08:26] Alvaro Lario

Well, I think what I enjoy most is obviously when I go to these very rural communities and you create something that is especially sometimes very innovative and that is also supporting, as we would say in a very general manner, people, planet. Let me give you another example. I was recently also in Mexico and actually when you are planting a lot of the avocados, it's draining a lot the water. But obviously [with] avocados you earn a lot per hectare, and this is a big business. At the same time certain communities, which actually were very disfavoured and they were not in a very simple situation, they had a lot of forests. But a lot of the forests were being cut [down] to create a lot of these avocado plantations. 

So, one of the models we brought in was actually what can we do with the forest? So, we created and developed around the resin value chain what type of products we could create that could still feed the communities. Not the same return as avocados but could create that balance with the water that was being drained from this forest, keeping the forest, but at the same time providing an economic opportunity. So, it was a type of win-win so that not everything becomes an avocado plantation. And that was in a community that was actually going through some challenges in terms of security and other matters in the west of Mexico. So, I think this is the type of models that I really believe where finance can be a source of good and can be a source of creation to support communities and to support the planet. 

 

[00:09:52] Melissa Fleming

Well, when you think of all the challenges that farmers are facing, what is keeping you awake at night? 

 

[00:09:59] Alvaro Lario

Well, I try to focus, I would say, on what I can have agency over. And on that, I think what really I focus most of my energy is in what type of solutions or type of investment projects at a big scale we can bring to countries such as, for example, right now, Syria, which is in a process of reconstruction. Sudan. South Sudan, which is also going through some challenging situation right now. Haiti. So, in that type of very complex environment, what can I do? What can the organization...? How can we really support the communities at a scale that can make a difference? That's what I'm probably constantly awake and at night thinking. 

 

[00:10:39] Melissa Fleming

So you're talking about places where there is war or there is horrific gang violence like in Haiti. So how can you support a community in a place like that? 

 

[00:10:52] Alvaro Lario

Well, many times, I mean, first of all, it starts with security. And I think that's also where the global and the general UN works with governments. But mostly on creating some economic conditions that can create hope. And many times, it's hope for the youth. When I was talking about the northern Côte d'Ivoire before and many of the young people there were also telling me, 'I mean, we can either join some of the terrorism groups and it's easy cash money. We can join some of the illegal mining that is also easy money. Or we need any other type of economic opportunity.' And I think that's where I do believe that the solutions need to come. I think we need to be creative and bring the financing to that type of community. 

 

 

[00:11:34] Melissa Fleming

I mean, you mentioned hope. Is there something that you've learned now having visited people in these situations where you are actually able to provide solutions to struggling farmers because of their environment? What is it that you find is like the human trait that best represents what you've seen? 

 

[00:11:57] Alvaro Lario

Well, all of these people are extremely entrepreneurial. They’re extremely creative. They have a lot of willingness and energy. Many times, it's just the lack of opportunity or the lack of means, so it's not clear. I mean, when you see them... I mean, I've seen so many, just, I would say, incredible stories of, especially of young people, women and men, who have really managed to create employment, to create opportunities for others to come out of really poverty and create out of almost nothing with very little support or very little investment at a whole such a difference. 

And I think that's what probably makes this job or this role very rewarding. Unfortunately, I over the last year have not been as much in the field as I would have wanted, but that's why probably I enjoy most more than the G7s, the G20s, the big events. I think that when you are there and you see the difference, I think, that's what makes your life much more rewarding for sure. 

 

[00:12:54] Melissa Fleming

You're in one of those places, remote from it all. Now we're sitting here in UN headquarters in New York. Why are you here? What brings you to New York? 

 

[00:13:05] Alvaro Lario

Well, I think it's always great to have the opportunity of discussing with the leaders, with a lot of the ministers and prime ministers, a lot of what's going on. For me now, also in my second role as chair of UN-Water, we have presented a review of SDG 6, a synthesis report of progress on water and sanitation, which is fundamental. It's a super connector. And I think just on UN-Water, which is a system-wide coordination mechanism that is not very well known, I think it's one of the beauties of the UN. Actually, it's a system that is working extremely well. And I think it is a very important moment because actually water is something that we all talk about, but it's a little bit forgotten. 

But clearly, the complexity of water, just like with food systems, as I said, it comes from many, many different angles. So, it's something that is extremely important. It will become even more important with climate change. And I think, in my view, [we] should not be creating another entity, another structure, another institution. I think that's not the way forward. But it's a way of how can the UN system coordinate better. And this is where UN-Water, I think, comes together. We presented one, two years ago, a strategy on water sanitation for the entire UN, for the UN system-wide, and we are actually trying to implement it and to support Resident Coordinators to really support governments in many of these investments, but also related to culture, to transboundary watches, all of the elements that are quite complex too. 

 

[00:14:32] Melissa Fleming

What are the biggest issues around water? 

 

[00:14:36] Alvaro Lario

I would say more than anything else is access to safe drinking water, which we take for granted and clearly in many parts of the world it does not happen. When we talk about water in developed economies, now we're thinking more about data centres, AI, consumption of water. That's what comes to mind. But clearly that's from a very different position than in many of the least developed countries or low-income countries. 

 

[00:14:58] Melissa Fleming

Or with climate change, flooding, coastal erosion, but certainly... I mean, when you think about climate change and your job, both hats, water and food, what are you most worried about when you think what's happening with climate that is here so dramatically already? 

 

 

[00:15:23] Alvaro Lario

Well, we are having, as I think is well known, but we are having like countries, especially in sub-Saharan Africa, which are going through five, six years of drought. So clearly that creates an extreme situation. Right now, we might or not see a stronger El Niño, for example, as such. I mean, if you think about what's the impact of El Niño. If we think about Zambia, for example a couple of years ago, I think it was 2023, actually one million hectares of maize was lost. We had six million people which needed humanitarian assistance, one million households which actually were extremely impacted by the shock itself. So, these are the type of figures that we could see around climate change. 

As you mentioned also floods. As an example, now we consider many of these elements when we are designing many of these investments. In Malawi, as an example, we have submergible roads because they have been going through floods, hurricanes. And it's important that we just anticipate what would be next and what can happen. And many of these investments, it's not like whether it exists or not, or it's just something that we need to take into consideration in terms of how to adapt. 

For us, in our case, I mean, most of our climate financing is about adaptation, but it's just the nature of what we do on the day to day. It's not, should we be doing it or not? I mean there's no other way of actually nowadays investing in food systems and agriculture. But taking into consideration a lot of the shocks, heatwaves, floods, droughts, whether it's on the seeds resistant to heat. You have to take that into consideration when you're investing. There's no more choice, frankly. 

 

[00:17:00] Melissa Fleming

It has to be quite urgent, right? You come from Spain. It has been so hot in Spain and in so many parts of Europe. Is it personal, climate change, for you when you see this? I think Europe is heating twice as fast as most parts of the world. 

 

[00:17:20] Alvaro Lario

Yeah, we're seeing heat waves coming now in Europe. And at the same time, I mean, even when we're talking about foods, I mean, vineyards are going more north to Europe because actually a lot of the conditions we know in 30, 40 years might not be there anymore in Spain. Clearly there's going to be a lot of need to adapt, perhaps even across crops, value chains. 

One of the things that I'm seeing as a, I would say, an optimist in Africa is a lot the African leaders are currently having to choose what are the crops they want to become self-sufficient in. What's the degree of food sovereignty that they want on the different crops? What are the value chains they want to invest in? So, there's much more consciousness of having food and food security as a matter of national security, and clearly, it's not only about availability of food. It's what food should we be growing? Where should we invest? 

Does it make sense that a lot of countries are importing a lot of the rice, for example, from the east when transportation costs go up? So, there are a lot of links with the shocks that we're seeing. And for the first time, I would say, I'm seeing that they are really becoming very, very concerned and wanting to see at a strategic level what should be the choices and the options. 

 

[00:18:31] Melissa Fleming

I believe you grew up on a farm, in a farming family. 

 

[00:18:34] Alvaro Lario

Well, my parents were coming from small villages. It was... They were farmers. And I think in Spain, obviously, we had a difficult situation for many years from an economic point of view in the 50s, in the 60s. And clearly, I think food is very much part of the family, and it has been a business for a long time. Then obviously, the country changed and we became more industrialized. But yeah, that's the origin, I would say, of many of us in many of the countries. Actually, I think that's the reality. That's why probably food and farming connects so much with people and it creates so many emotions, I think, around food. 

 

[00:19:15] Melissa Fleming

What did they grow? 

 

 

[00:19:17] Alvaro Lario

So basically, they were basically selling fruit, melons and then they had a small truck, and they were going through villages selling them. And yeah, that was the... 

 

[00:19:26] Melissa Fleming

Did you help at all? 

 

[00:19:27] Alvaro Lario

No. My parents did, then they slowly wound it down. But yeah, I did not have that opportunity, but it's in the family for sure. That's a conversation that we... 

 

[00:19:37] Melissa Fleming

It influenced you. 

 

[00:19:38] Alvaro Lario

Of course, yeah. 

 

[00:19:40] Melissa Fleming

They wanted you to go to school and to university. 

 

[00:19:42] Alvaro Lario

Exactly. I think that's what I think happens all over the world. I mean, many of the small-scale farmers want a future that many times we think is about higher education, which sometimes it is. But at the same time, for me, what is important is to provide them right now with the economic opportunity to get that income and ability to have more choices. I think that still farming needs to be a business. And I think as we started, this is one of the key elements that the economic opportunity needs to happen now. It's not for the future. It cannot be only about subsistence farming. 

 

[00:20:16] Melissa Fleming

Can you give another example of a project that you've worked on that you're really proud of? 

 

 

[00:20:23] Alvaro Lario

Yeah, I think many times it's just about, for example, connecting many of these small-scale farmers to markets. Which means, for example, in Indonesia, in Java, it was about building tertiary roads in mountains where there was no connection. So rather than going with a bicycle for days, you just can do it in an hour or in two hours. And I think that... 

 

[00:20:48] Melissa Fleming

Just by building a road. 

 

[00:20:50] Alvaro Lario

Yes. 

 

[00:20:50] Melissa Fleming

And so you invested in building this road? 

 

[00:20:54] Alvaro Lario

Yes, mostly tertiary roads because many of our projects actually, and this is the difference I would say with, for example, the big multilateral development banks, they go to the capital. They talk to the government. Then from the capital we take another three, four hours, six hours into the mountains in a very remote area. And many times, the connectivity digital infrastructure is not there. The same goes with water. 

I've been to many places where actually the big dams were built but there was no connection to smaller dams to pipe to the actual rural areas. So, it was great generally, but it did not have a meaningful impact in many of these rural communities where extreme poverty is. And I think many of those sometimes it's about building the smaller canals, dams. I mean, it sounds like something that is small, but the reality is that that's where the real impact happens. That's where the changing lives happen. And I think that's the beauty. 

 

[00:21:47] Melissa Fleming

So what happened after that road was built? 

 

[00:21:50] Alvaro Lario

So I think in this case, they managed actually to create a business or a difference because there were communities which were not connected to many of the bigger cities. So, then they managed to actually start selling at a higher margin and they managed also to create a number of small companies. And obviously that changes completely the communities. It changes completely the next decades of this community. It's not just a one-off. Then you can build from there. And I think that's the beauty from something very small it just lifts you up and then you can scale from there. 

 

[00:22:24] Melissa Fleming

How important is it to engage women in farming projects? 

 

[00:22:30] Alvaro Lario

I think it's very, very important for a number of reasons. I think first because we know when women actually are the ones getting the income, they invest it better. They save it better. They usually invest it in food or education. So, I think their ability of really making a good use of investment of the income is very important. And we also know that it has a big impact in terms of the nutrition and education of the children. So, I think that's the first one. 

The main challenge many times... And I remember in this case, in Papua New Guinea, a woman who had built also another business. She was employing 50 other women. But she told me, 'Do you know what happens?' I mean, everything is great. She was like 25, 27 [years old], and things were going very well for her. But she told me, 'If I divorce, the land is not mine. It belongs to my husband.' So, actually she was the one who put together all of the business, who was employing everyone. But if things didn't go well with her partner, then probably her entire business is gone. And this is one of the issues that in terms of, for example, of land ownership, most of it is by men. 

And this to really have an impact on here, it's challenging and it takes a lot of time. So, it's a lot about bringing some of these women into decision-making in farmers' organizations. Bringing some women actually through women's associations to have a bigger say in the communities. To have some conversations in the families on trying to understand the culture. But at the same time, trying to bring a different angle and that takes a long time. So, I think that the impact is massive, but this is something that doesn't change overnight for sure. 

 

 

[00:24:08] Melissa Fleming

I mean, it is a difficult profession, right? Are you worried that people are going to stop farming because it's so challenging, given all of the conditions, climate change, everything being so unpredictable? Are you worried that we can't sustain our food systems because we might not have enough farmers to commit themselves? 

 

[00:24:34] Alvaro Lario

Well, I think the first of all, the average age of a farmer generally in the developed but also in the developing world, especially in developed economies, is around the late 50s, like 58. 

 

[00:24:45] Melissa Fleming

The average age? 

 

[00:24:45] Alvaro Lario

The average age. So, I think one of the challenges that we have actually many times is attracting the youth. And attracting the youth from what I have seen in I would say everywhere, it relates very much to making it appealing. So, obviously, if you have no connectivity, it has nothing to do with nowadays with some sort of degree of technology to a higher or lower degree of technology, then they are not interested. Because they see themselves the picture that we all see. It's like a man there in the field or a woman or a man working on the field and that's it. 

But there's so many jobs around, I would say, farming, that you have to also explain and be able to really socialize. So, when you talk about apps, when you talk about drones... Or it doesn't even need to be drones. It's apps and just seeing themselves more as an entrepreneur than just working in the field, that does attract the youth. And that's where we have to think also about farming not only as a production, but also storage, distribution, marketing. So, there's a lot of other jobs. Currently, in sub-Saharan Africa, Africa as such is importing around $100 billion of food every year, USD $100 billion. 

 

[00:25:58] Melissa Fleming

Africa is importing that and yet they could grow it all, right? 

 

[00:26:02] Alvaro Lario

And the main challenge is that all of those jobs are going somewhere else. So, imagine if you could create a lot of those jobs in the distribution, in the storage. $100 billion, I think that that would certainly make a big difference. 

 

[00:26:15] Melissa Fleming

I'm just wondering with the shock... I mean, we've had a few recently that had a huge influence on food systems - COVID-19, then Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the closure of the Black Sea, and then now the Strait of Hormuz crisis. Every time we've heard that countries around the world have said, 'Oh, my God. We're so dependent on imports and now it's raised the prices, and we have to change things and become more independent. Not just energy independent, but also food independent.' Are you seeing a shift in countries saying, 'Actually, let's just start growing, ourselves?' 

 

[00:26:58] Alvaro Lario

So actually, IFAD was created, next year, 50 years ago, and it was after an oil shock and a food shock. So, it's interesting and if you look at the articles of agreement of IFAD as a specialized agency, it's interesting that the words are a little different because we changed the language over time, but it's the goal and what we're trying to do is just the same. So, it is interesting that 50 years later we are trying to accomplish many of the issues. Every time that a shock happens, and we're seeing many more recurrent shocks regularly, as you mentioned, you have to become more resilient. And to become resilient is not just a word. It means having diversification of inputs, which means diversification of seeds, of fertilizers, of ability of trading with other partners, of importing from different partners. And that's not the current case. 

So, if anything over these years, we've learned about the need of really having that ability of shifting when the shock happens. And that can only be constructed over time. Usually politicians, when these moments come, they ask, 'Okay, what can we do right now?' Well, actually we should have been investing over the last three, five years. So, in the very short term, what can we do with fertilizers? Not much. We can subsidize them. We can deplete the stocks that are there, but there's not much more that we can do. Over time, yes, you have to make sure that you have more of a local production, that you are also depending less on just one of your providers and so on and so on. But in the very short term, there's very limited things that you can do after a shock. 

 

[00:28:32] Melissa Fleming

There's a lot of hope around agricultural applications that AI could bring. Are you hopeful about the prospect of AI kind of supercharging the ability of farmers in remote places to maybe be prepared for climate shocks or weather situations, or how to grow things better? Can you describe it to me, because I don't quite... 

 

[00:29:02] Alvaro Lario

Yeah, I think there's, as you mentioned, regarding perhaps both early warning systems, soil health, that for sure between satellites and AI, there's enormous potential. I think the main issue with technology, whether it's AI or any other type of technology, many times is adoption. Adoption by governments who don't have the capacity and adoption by local communities which don’t have the connectivity. So, if you don't have the connectivity even to the Internet, nice to talk about AI. If the governments don't have the ability or the capacity to implement it, they're going to rely always on other governments. So, I think the potential is massive. Whether that's going to impact the countries and the communities that are most in need, I think that's where probably the challenge is. 

 

[00:29:43] Melissa Fleming

And those are the ones you're working with. 

 

[00:29:46] Alvaro Lario

Yes. How can we make sure with everything we've learned, with everything other organizations have learned, how can we make sure that we are supporting and investing in the right areas and in the right solutions? 

 

[00:29:58] Melissa Fleming

Well, I guess a lot of solutions people assume are coming from developed countries. But in many places, indigenous people have the most, I don't know, very unique solutions and answers and they're able to adapt. Have you had any experiences in your travels meeting with indigenous people? 

 

[00:30:20] Alvaro Lario

Yes, I would say everywhere, especially in Latin America, we've had a lot of... We work a lot because they're in that "first mile". They're very important communities on working with nature. And we do have, for example, an Indigenous Peoples Forum where we bring a lot of the leaders of these organizations to discuss, to also advise us, guide us. I mean, for us, it's one of the pillars - generally farmers' organizations, but also Indigenous peoples. And what is their knowledge and what can we learn out of it. It's not always simple because we also work with governments and there need to be with the different stakeholders and that always can or may get complicated. But yeah, for sure they are a very important partner for us. 

 

 

[00:31:02] Melissa Fleming

You live in Rome and I'm sure you go to the supermarket or maybe you go to a market sometimes. What do you buy? I'm really curious what is in your shopping basket. 

 

[00:31:14] Alvaro Lario

Well, that's a very good question. Because actually, one of the things that we've seen all over the world, not only in Rome, is that actually a lot of the, I would say, perishable products such as fruits, vegetables and so on have really increased dramatically in price. I mean they have gone up like 30%, 40%. The fact that the cost of inflation or the cost of food inflation has dramatically gone up since 2021. So, a lot of the food that actually we consume, especially the cost of a healthy diet, has gone up significantly. 

I mean, there's almost three billion people in the world who cannot afford a healthy diet. So, I think these are dramatic figures in terms of what you would expect. And this increase, significant increase, especially of food vis-à-vis salaries or income, is having an impact in terms of what actually many of the communities around the world can access as a healthy diet, which is something obviously we are privileged. But in many parts of the world, they really struggle with the cost of a healthy diet. 

 

[00:32:14] Melissa Fleming

It's crazy. So, ultra processed foods can sometimes be cheaper than buying vegetables. 

 

[00:32:20] Alvaro Lario

Yeah.

 

[00:32:21] Melissa Fleming

So what do you buy? 

 

[00:32:24] Alvaro Lario

So I try to actually buy a lot of fruits, vegetables, I would say organic chicken. Yeah, I would say that's the main foods I buy. 

 

[00:32:39] Melissa Fleming

And what is your favourite cuisine? 

 

[00:32:43] Alvaro Lario

I mean, I have the opportunity... Actually, this is one of the things that people really envy about my job. Many times, I go to very rural, remote areas where I taste things that you would never taste in the middle of nowhere. And I learned a lot. In terms of cuisine. I would say probably Indian, Chinese, Spanish or Mediterranean. Yeah. 

 

[00:33:05] Melissa Fleming

All very healthy. What is the most gratifying part of your job? 

 

[00:33:11] Alvaro Lario

Always talking to the communities. I think that's the number one. Also, for me, as a leader of an organization, also creating a workplace culture or the conditions for people to really give their best or come with their best persona to the job every day. I think that's also very important for me. And I think that's a responsibility as a leader. But in terms of if I had to choose on a day-to-day, I would be talking to many of these communities, understanding what are their challenges, trying to support, to see that there's somebody trying to give them the conditions for them to thrive. I think that ability. And they're always very grateful for this type of investment, so it's very gratifying. 

 

 

[00:33:56] Melissa Fleming

Thank you, Alvaro. 

 

[00:33:58] Alvaro Lario

Thank you, Melissa. Thank you. 

 

[00:33:58] Melissa Fleming

It was a real pleasure. I learned a lot. 

 

[00:34:00] Alvaro Lario

Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. 

 

[00:34:04] Melissa Fleming

Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world a better and safer place. 

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please take the time to review us. It helps more people to find the show. 

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell and to my colleagues at the UN: Katerina Kitidi, Roberta Politi, Geneva Damayanti, Abby Vardeleon, Alison Corbet, Laura Rodriguez de Castro, Eric Balgley, Jason Candler, Benji Candelario, Anzhelika Devis, Tulin Battikhi, Bissera Kostova, Brianna Rowe, Joon Park, and Taeyoung Lee. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier.