Yacoub El Hillo | When war comes home (S11-E4)

 

 

 

[00:00:00] Melissa Fleming

My guest this week has spent much of his career helping refugees and people displaced by conflict. But now a terrible war has broken out in his home country, Sudan. And his own family has had to flee. 

 

[00:00:15] Yacoub El Hillo

I don't think there is any home in Khartoum that was spared. Not in Khartoum, not in Omdurman, the old town where my grandfather's house and where the family comes from, where I grew up also at certain parts of my life. These are in areas which we know have been hotspots and very, very intense fighting zones. So, the assumption is that everything is gone. 

 

[00:00:51] Melissa Fleming

Yacoub El Hillo is the Regional Director for Africa at the United Nations Development Coordination Office. From the United Nations, I'm Melissa Fleming. This is Awake at Night. So great to have you here in our studio in New York, Yacoub. It's really good to see you again in person. 

 

[00:01:18] Yacoub El Hillo

Great to be here, Melissa. Thank you.

 

[00:01:20] Melissa Fleming

You have worked for the United Nations for over 35 years, and we're going to get into that in a bit. But I wanted to begin, Yacoub, by asking you about your home country of Sudan, where a terrible... I don't even know if terrible is enough of a word. A terrible, horrible, horrific war is raging. Can you just describe the situation, what it's like there. 

 

[00:01:48] Yacoub El Hillo

Thank you very much, Melissa. And it's an honour, really, to be here. I follow you a lot and we worked together but this is exceptional for me, so... 

 

 

[00:02:01] Melissa Fleming

We worked together for 10 years, so it feels like a reunion in a way. 

 

[00:02:07] Yacoub El Hillo

So you know I have been with the UN for exactly that. I think this year it will be 36. Most of it has actually been in conflict zones. And you asked me about Sudan. I have never seen anything like this. All wars are senseless, right? Because once you get to that stage, that means sense was lost. But this is super senseless because there's no reason for it. There's no cause for it. I haven't seen anything like this because of the speed and the scale with which it has done damage. Human damage, but also material damage. And damage to a country that was actually living a hopeful moment to shed the shackles of the past and take off after the revolution in 2019.  

But now it's a country that is on the verge of further escalation, and worse than that, divisions. And I think it's important that you started with Sudan, because I want to say this —with now 14 million people forcibly displaced, 2 million of whom have had to cross the borders and become refugees in neighbouring countries. But way beyond, you have Sudanese now in every corner of the world literally. This is not our war. This is not a Sudanese war. Sudan is a theatre for an agenda that is being sorted out. And we the Sudanese people continue to pay for it every day. 

And from this platform here I want to take the opportunity to call on us, Sudanese, to actually put Sudan first and not get ideas from outside, ideas that have absolutely no relation to the stability or prosperity or success of the idea that is Sudan. Because the agenda is not working in that direction. The agenda is to destroy and exploit. Sudan is a very rich country. Its riches continue to go as the people of Sudan are forced to go from their homes. And with the two million that have crossed so far, to go from their country. 

 

[00:04:36] Melissa Fleming

So many are being killed. 

 

[00:04:38] Yacoub El Hillo

And that is not going to stop. The belief that this is going to be won militarily is so entrenched on both sides. We talk about both sides because these are the two prominent sides to the conflict. But there are no less than 56 armed groups operating in Sudan. But we always talk about the Sudanese Armed Forces on one side, and the Rapid Support Forces, on the other side. But unpack that, you will find a lot of weapons in the hands of so many people and now in the hands of civilians operating in Sudan. 

So, the killings, I am afraid, will continue and the dying will continue unless the international community, which is apart from the voice of leaders such as the Secretary-General who speak about Sudan and other leaders within the UN system who work in Sudan, they bring Sudan to the fore. But in the corporate media Sudan is not there, I am sad to say. It is eclipsed by other equally devastating conflicts in Ukraine or in Gaza. But I think the scale of what's happening in Sudan eclipses the damage that is happening in those two calamities. 

 

[00:06:03] Melissa Fleming

You're from there. Your family was living there. You had a home there in Khartoum. What is that...? Do you have any idea what that looks like now? And are any members of your family still there? 

 

 

 

[00:06:15] Yacoub El Hillo

We continue to be uprooted. And I have worked for uprooted people all my life, right? And it always hits home. Even as we go around the world and pursue our mission in the service of those who have been forced to flee, it always affects you. It gets you, but it also gives you the courage and the inspiration to continue. And I know that there is a tendency to think people in need are helpless, they have nothing to offer. In fact, all the energy and courage we muster, it comes from the very people that we deploy to support and help find a solution to the predicament they find themselves in. Not because of their own making, but by the making of a very few privileged, greedy group that can do things at the cost of human suffering. Sudan is no exception in that regard. 

We spoke about the scale and the speed with which the damage has been done. But as you also know, it's home. So here you know people you belong to. You have families and, you know, the concept of family in Sudan goes way beyond the immediate family. And it goes into large numbers. So, we have a lot of people still stranded in Sudan who continue to be displaced depending on how the war map is changing. 

 

[00:07:52] Melissa Fleming

Members of your family. 

 

[00:07:52] Yacoub El Hillo

Absolutely. And of course, many others, other Sudanese that we have grown up with or gone to school with or worked with. And the more you look at it, the more you wonder why. Why is this? Where is sanity? Human lives that are lost are not replaceable. And that's a very heavy cost to pay. But the physical damage that has been inflicted on Sudan's infrastructure, on Sudan's industries, on Sudan's roads and bridges, on Sudan businesses. It's indiscriminate, disproportionate destruction of life, but also of Sudan's infrastructure. 

And that is why when you attach this picture to people you know personally, people you grew up with and people you want the best for. And now today they are completely left to fend in environments that are hostile and environments that are not conducive for children to grow up or for old people to cope, especially those with chronic ailments. It's devastating. It is beyond description, and I think, and I believe the words I'm sharing with you, Melissa, don't capture the totality of what's happening in Sudan, because it's beyond my words to describe. It's a calamity. 

 

[00:09:29] Melissa Fleming

It's a calamity also because... And I'm just wondering if you can just think of one of your family members who has probably had to flee. Do they have enough food? 

 

[00:09:39] Yacoub El Hillo

We have a lot of extended family that had to leave Khartoum. Most of the family was in Khartoum. We mainly come from the White Nile area south of Khartoum. And I come from a family of farmers. So, on the banks of the White Nile, my grandfather had this large agricultural scheme, which is today a refugee settlement not just for the family members who come from the El Hillo clan, but for anyone who needed shelter and sanctuary. It has come to that. These are people who are really not only supporting themselves and supporting others. They were running their own businesses, or they were civil servants or professors at university, but they're like everybody else, displaced forcibly. 

And they cannot draw from any reserves that they may have put aside throughout their lives because that too has been depleted if not completely lost because of the disruption that has inflicted the banking sector. So, some have been there since the war started. Others have joined over the time. Some have arrived recently. Because, you know, the conflict has a way of cropping up from one place to the other without any notice, really. It catches people by surprise. Those who have thought that they have been displaced enough—twice or three times —and that this cannot happen again. And it happens. So, they have to flee again. 

 

 

[00:11:21] Melissa Fleming

It is... I know you've worked with refugees all your life and for many, those who were... Everybody gets reduced to the basics of humanity in the end. You could have been the richest, the most prominent, the most successful and everything is lost all at once when you have to flee a war. 

 

[00:11:46] Yacoub El Hillo

I'll tell you... I spoke about the larger family, but I'll tell a story when the war started in Khartoum on the 15th of April 2023, I had two of my kids in Khartoum. One was working in Khartoum after finishing her studies abroad and came home to work. And one was at school. My youngest son, Ali, who is named after my father. So, Ali was going to school in Khartoum. And of course, the war started. They were stranded in the area where they lived, where we lived for about two weeks after the war. And then eventually, we had to basically evacuate them. 

And that evacuation was a major stressful operation, because it was not just the two of them. It was with their grandparents. It was with many other family members. It was a bus of 55 immediate family members. And I was in Addis. I was not in Khartoum. So, this was an operation that had to be run remotely, and it was very stressful because you're not there to actually see to it that these people leave Khartoum under the heavy shelling and the sniper fire and the airstrikes and all of that. So anyway, when they were leaving, I told my kids, 'Write. What you see, write it down because it will help you not keep it inside. But also, maybe one day you will go back and make use of the recollection and the memories.' 

So, it took them almost 50 hours. This is a journey of 12 hours normally from Khartoum to the border with Egypt. It took them almost 50 hours. Some people, actually not from the immediate family… The immediate family we had someone, an elderly lady who had a heart attack. Luckily, she survived it, but not really. But you also have others who have perished upon arrival at the border because of the harshness of the conditions, the crowded area and limited capacity and maybe also the lack of open asylum policy. I should say that was the case in the case of Egypt. 

Anyway, they finally crossed the border. They finally went to the Egyptian side. My kids were immediately... I made arrangements for them to come to Addis Ababa. So, they came. And I was chatting with them, and they were tired. Of course, they had to rest. So, I asked my daughter, Razan, 'And what did you do?' She said, 'I actually talked to a lot of people on the way and at the border. And I am going to start a blog.' And Razan now has a platform online called “The Voices of the Homeland,” where it actually captures all the stories. It creates opportunities for interaction and therapy, maybe even people talking to each other and helping each other. But it's also an income generating platform where Sudanese products, artistic products, are sold online to generate funds to help send aid back to Sudan to the people we were discussing earlier, those who are stranded still but displaced. 

 

[00:15:27] Melissa Fleming

Do you have any idea what has happened to your home back in Sudan? 

 

[00:15:31] Yacoub El Hillo

I don't think there is any home in Khartoum that was spared. Not in Khartoum, not in Omdurman, the old town where my grandfather's house and where the family comes from, where I grew up also at certain parts of my life. These are in areas which we know have been hotspots and very, very intense fighting zones. So, the assumption is that everything is gone, everything that this family has worked on for generations. I come from a family that is heavily... Farmers, yes, but heavily involved in politics. Led the rebellion against the British occupation in the 19th century. I am not involved in Sudanese politics, but my families heavily do, and our dining table is a parliament. 

 

[00:16:20] Melissa Fleming

And that dining table may not exist, but your family and its influence will survive. I mean, what is keeping you awake at night when it comes to Sudan? 

 

 

[00:16:32] Yacoub El Hillo

I always say Africa keeps me busy during the day, and Sudan keeps me awake at night. Because you now have Sudanese, as we said earlier, in all time zones, people you know, people who have been all of a sudden thrown into the unknown. So, you stay in touch with people. People also get in touch with you. You cannot afford not to be there. So, this is part of the culture I grew up in, and it's heartbreaking to see people now asking for help. Many of the people you see displaced around the country today continue to put up with people who they hardly know, or they had never met before, but the doors are open. This is a country at war, but the generosity continues. And that's why I think the biggest humanitarian operation in Sudan today is run by the Sudanese themselves out of generosity and simple hospitality. 

 

[00:17:35] Melissa Fleming

What is your...? When you think about Sudan right now, and its lowest point, what is your hope? 

 

[00:17:45] Yacoub El Hillo

My hope comes from many sources. One is that everything starts and everything stops, including war. We have seen this in many other places. And we have seen whoever is involved in fueling that war eventually coming to the realization that it's not an answer. Sit down and save what is left of Sudan. It is a country that has everything to make it a great nation again. And that starts with its people. So, my hope also comes from the average Sudanese. The peace-loving people, the warm people, the welcoming people, the people who are now dealt a very hard deal with what's going on. But they're resilient. They are people with very strong faith. They know that nothing is forever. Thirdly, the sooner we dry the sources of support and supply to the parties involved in this conflict in Sudan, the sooner we will get to a point where people will sit and talk. 

 

[00:19:07] Melissa Fleming

Back in 2021, you were considering taking early retirement and returning to Sudan. That was before the war. 

 

[00:19:17] Yacoub El Hillo

I actually took retirement. I actually retired on the 5th of January 2021 after 32 years of service with the UN. And I think I needed that definitive closure of a career that by that time had taken me to 16 duty stations around the world. So, I thought, 'Okay, you can never do enough when you are working for humanity.' But then my country was also looking up. It was living a hopeful moment after the revolution in 2019. I went home not to join government or to take a position, but to just be part of the activity that was really very, very impressive by Sudanese from all corners of the world many of whom have actually come back. They dropped whatever they were doing, came back to contribute ideas or bring innovation. And it was a beautiful moment. So, I actually did live in Sudan for seven months. So, it was good. 

And you'll ask me, 'But how come you're here now?' So, at the end of that seven-month period I got a request from this building, from the leadership, to come and help for three to maximum six months at the DCO, Development Coordination Office for Africa, and the headquarters of that is in Addis. And I actually took a week, I think, to think about it, and I said yes. I said, yes, because Africa was calling. The UN needed support. Addis Ababa to Khartoum is one hour away, and at that time my mother was still alive, so that was important for me. And it's a short-term stint, short stint of support and then move out. Anyway, don't ask me how I'm still there. 

 

[00:21:23] Melissa Fleming

You have, as you mentioned, had a very long and distinguished career with the UN, but there must have been a starting point. And so, I just... I'm curious, what made you want to work for the UN in the first place and what was your first job? 

 

[00:21:37] Yacoub El Hillo

I was inspired by my law professor. I went to law school at the University of Khartoum. I graduated in 1986. But my law professor, international law, Dr. Amin Madani. He is a known name in the UN. He was actually in Baghdad when the Canal [Hotel] bombing happened. Luckily, he was not among our friends and colleagues who had to pay the ultimate price, God bless, but he was seriously injured. So, Dr. Madani is the one who actually inspired me after I graduated. I didn't go straight into law practice. I wanted to join the private sector. I actually with three of my friends, we grew up together, we founded a company, and I ran that company. 

1986 is the one time as a Sudanese I have voted in elections. I am now 62 years old. I have voted only once in my life because even if we got our independence in 1956, the bulk of that period until today has been military rule. Sadly, we had a coup d'etat in 1989, and by that time the project was at a very advanced stage. And immediately the idea was shelved. 

So, yes, that put an end to it, but I remained constantly in contact with my professor who had always been urging me to consider joining the United Nations. He was a very strong advocate of human rights. He was tortured by the former regime. He was jailed for many a time. So, he's the one who said, 'You should go and join UNHCR [the UN Refugee Agency] with the energy you have and wanting to do.' I worked in Sudan for two years with UNHCR, and I believe during that period we resettled no less than 30,000 Ethiopians out of Sudan to North America, to Europe, to Australia, many of whom are now back in Ethiopia and rebuilding or building that country. 

 

 

[00:23:52] Melissa Fleming

I met many UNHCR colleagues like you. They started at a junior level, and then they spent their whole career. They never left because they said there was something about the mandate and something about serving refugees that they found so compelling. 

 

[00:24:09] Yacoub El Hillo

It's not a job. It's a mission. And there's always fire in the belly that keeps you wanting to do more but also never giving up. This is the UNHCR I joined. But really, I think one of the things about growing up in UNHCR is that at a very young age you are left in the middle of nowhere in charge of a large group of people and you have to take life or death decisions at a very young age. So, it's a... I think it's the best training ground in the UN system. I'm not biased here and now I work for the entire system, but I think UNHCR is exceptional in that sense. 

 

[00:24:49] Melissa Fleming

And you really did serve in so many places and one of those was in Liberia in 1996 before the April 6 war when there were hundreds of thousands of displaced people. What do you just remember particularly about that? 

 

[00:25:06] Yacoub El Hillo

It was a non-stop emergency. This is at a moment when Sierra Leone right next door also was at war, and we had 150,000 Sierra Leonean refugees in Liberia. We had 800,000 internally displaced Liberians. This is a country at that time of four million people. 800,000 were displaced internally. And half a million were refugees in the neighbourhood. All the way to Nigeria and to Ghana. Of course, to Guinea, and of course, to Sierra Leone right next door. Of course, in Côte d'Ivoire. It was a mess. It was a mess. 

But it was also a low moment in humanity, I believe, because the type of brutality that we witnessed at that moment, both in Liberia and in Sierra Leone, was unimaginable. It was actually beyond human comprehension how could a human being do something like this to another human being. And I won't go into the gruesome examples, but it was really gruesome. 

And I want to say that I am privileged to have been given another chance to serve in Liberia for another three years. I left in 1999, and I came back in 2016. I came back to a different Liberia. I came back to a country that was already on its second term of the first elected president in Africa, Madame Ellen Johnson Sirleaf. And I came back to a country that was really trying to get it right, not through war or violence, but through establishing a civil society in which democracy is practiced, in which people are elected, in which the international community was ready to do business with and invest in. I came back to a different country. And it was a reminder. And that's why when you asked me about hope in Sudan. Everything starts. Everything stops, including wars. And when I say that I always have Liberia in mind. 

 

[00:27:25] Melissa Fleming

You know, on that note, you also served in Syria from 2013 to 2016. And that was when the civil war was raging. What kind of hope do you feel now with the fall of the Assad regime and just seeing and recalling your experience then, when you saw the worst of humanity? 

 

 

[00:27:49] Yacoub El Hillo

That was a difficult assignment. And you're right, this was the darkest moment in the Syrian conflict. This is the darkest moment that the Syrian people lived through. This is the moment when the millions of people who were forced to flee - six million internally, five million crossing the borders and becoming refugees. Siege was used as a tactic of war. So, there were 18 locations which were besieged. The majority by the regime, four by the opposition. One was besieged by ISIS and that is Deir ez-Zor. Siege was the tactic of war, and it was a terrible way of doing this. 

You saw the pictures and we saw… What we saw when we entered. We have actually reached all of these places physically. We entered all of them physically. It took painstaking negotiations with all sides. People died because of no food. People ate rats and grass. We went into the city, Old City of Homs. And it was a terrible situation because people didn't have food to eat because food was not allowed to come in. So, people had to go and fend, and many people died. That is on top of the shelling and the sniper fire that was constantly falling in this icon of a place. This is the Old City of Homs. This is history and heritage as best as you can see it or know it, but it was destroyed completely. 

So yes, we went, and it was a difficult operation. It was a dangerous operation. But we did it and we broke the siege, and we took humanitarian supplies to those civilians who still wanted or were fearful to come out. But we also assisted those who wanted to get out. Women pregnant, giving birth upon arrival. It was a, again, a very terrible moment in humanity to see people, Syrian, these beautiful people, coming out as if they're coming out of the Stone Age. So, we had barbers in the centre to cut people's hair and beards and... We had to go to basics literally to reintroduce what was a group of beautiful human beings living in a country that is an icon to actually coming back to see electricity and to actually see food on the table. And it was not easy. It was a very difficult experience. 

 

[00:30:37] Melissa Fleming

It must be really hard to witness this kind of man's inhumanity to man. But at the same time, does it...? You kept going back and back and back in different situations where you saw the worst of humanity. But was it because you were able to do something about it and to help? 

 

[00:30:57] Yacoub El Hillo

We always went to do something. We didn't go to just sit and watch and wait for things to happen. Wherever we were deployed, and when I say we, it's not just Yacoub El Hillo. I deploy with A teams in these difficult situations who are ready to take whatever calculated risk in order to deliver on the mission. And this is true, and I... From this platform, they know who they are. I'm not going to go name by name, but they really know who there are because without that, it was not going to be possible. 

When we entered the Old City of Homs on the 8th of February 2014, for the first time, we were shot at and shelled with rocket and mortar fire, but also with sniper fire that was deliberately targeting us, yeah. And our vehicles and the trucks we came with to deliver humanitarian supplies. We took medical supplies. We went to the hospital in the Old City of Homs, and I remember coming out. I was asked, 'How is the medical facility in the city?' I said, 'It's not a place to live. It is a place to die.' Because people were dying as we were there because of nothing. There was nothing. There was absolutely nothing. People were being operated [on] without anesthesia. People were... Yeah, it was terrible. So, I'm glad we were able to get there and bring what we were able to bring with us, including medical supplies. It saved lives. And that makes one want to do this more and more and more, absolutely. Because in my faith, if you save one person's life, it's as if you have saved the whole of humanity. 

 

[00:32:45] Melissa Fleming

How did it make you feel when you heard the news that the Assad regime had fallen? 

 

[00:32:49] Yacoub El Hillo

Syria deserves the best and Syria's problems are enormous because of the damage that has been done to this icon of a country. So, it is going to take a lot of time to undo the damage. It is going take all Syrians to work together to undo that damage. And I look at the pronouncements and the messaging coming out of Damascus. So far, it's encouraging, but nothing should be taken for granted. Syrians are very vigilant people. They have been dealt a hard deal for far too long. Syria should be given a chance. The world should give Syria a chance. First of all, to be at peace with itself because this war has pitted Syrians against themselves. But anyway, we are here now. Syrians have a new chance. And I'm sure Syrians, if given the chance, they will rebuild their country in no time. 

 

[00:33:53] Melissa Fleming

I hear a lot of hope there and I just want to ask you a question because during all this time where you were based in some of the toughest duty stations in the world, you managed to have a family. You have five children. What did they think about your work and did any of them follow in your footsteps?  

 

[00:34:19] Yacoub El Hillo

Yeah, well, I'm very proud of my five children. Safia, who is a writer and a poet. Al Mustafa, who's an entrepreneur. Tibian, who is a climate activist. Razan, who is in the private sector. And Ali, he's the youngest. He's going to university next year. Being in those places obviously meant they were not with me, right? These were strictly non-family duty stations. So, there were prolonged periods of time that went by with the distance and being away. Of course, at that moment also, maybe at that stage in life one had this feeling that you were doing something much bigger than all of us, saving humanity. 

And that's a double-edged sword. When you start thinking that way, you also begin to look at your own personal needs and priorities as trivial, of a lesser importance. If your family is in a place that is safe, if the kids are going to school, if everything is fine, then let me focus on the mission. And of course, time goes by. And distance is not good for any relations, but especially with children who are growing up. So, you try your best and you don't blame anyone. These are choices I made in life. I don't blame the UN. I don't blame my two ex-wives. I've been married twice, and I have been divorced twice. These are fantastic mothers of my children. They are also my friends. It's not like we severed relations. Yes, the marriages did not work because distance doesn't help. But then between us, we have these five beautiful children. And in fact, as of two weeks ago, I also got a granddaughter. 

 

[00:36:11] Melissa Fleming

Congratulations. 

 

[00:36:12] Yacoub El Hillo

Daniya. So, my daughter Tibian gave us this beautiful gift. So yeah, life goes on and you look back, and you say, 'Yes, there were many missed opportunities, many missed occasions where the children would have expected you to be there.' But as they grew up and we became more friends than father and children, father and daughter, father and son, the conversations actually helped clear up some of what may have been held emotionally by them. 

Because essentially, I was an absent father, right? Let's not beat about the bush. But I thought when I was on a noble mission, so noble that it justified being away for prolonged periods of time, and repeatedly, from one place to the next. From Somalia to Afghanistan, to Iraq, to Syria, to Liberia, to Libya, to Somalia again. So, it's choices we make. And I look back and I have absolutely no regrets, except perhaps the missed opportunities that I could have enjoyed with my children, who I am very proud of and I very happy they are healthy and happy. And they're there now to interact and to actually be their own, in their own right, successfully. I am proud. 

 

 

[00:37:36] Melissa Fleming

Yacoub, thank you so much. I learned so much from you that I didn't know, even though we traveled together many times at UNHCR. In fact, we didn't even talk about our adventure in Yemen. 

 

[00:37:48] Yacoub El Hillo

In Yemen, yes, of course. 

 

[00:37:51] Melissa Fleming

But for another time, for another podcast. It was so great having you here. 

 

[00:37:56] Yacoub El Hillo

Thank you. It is...

 

[00:37:56] Melissa Fleming

Talking about your very rich and very interesting service for UN and on behalf of humanity. 

 

[00:38:06] Yacoub El Hillo

Thank you. 

 

[00:38:07] Melissa Fleming

Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world a better and safer place. 

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please take the time to review us. It helps more people find the show.

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell, to Adam Paylor and to my colleagues at the UN: Katerina Kitidi, Roberta Politi, Carlos Macias, Abby Vardeleon, Laura Rodriguez De Castro, Anzhelika Devis, Tulin Battikhi and Bissera Kostova. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier.