Georgette Gagnon | Why I’ll always champion Afghan women (S11-E3)

 

 

 

 

[00:00:00] Melissa Fleming

It's hard to imagine a more fascinating and challenging place to serve than in Afghanistan. My guest, Georgette Gagnon, is the new UN Deputy Special Representative there. But this is not her first posting to Kabul. She remembers what it was like before the Taliban banned girls over the age of 12 from going to school. 

 

[00:00:21] Georgette Gagnon

You used to see across the country, you know, hundreds of girls going to school. You'd see them on the street coming in and out of the schools, at the university. I think Kabul University was at least half women. Now, of course, you don't see that and it's heartbreaking. It's such a huge loss for the entire society. 

 

[00:00:52] Melissa Fleming

From the United Nations, I'm Melissa Fleming. This is Awake at Night. Welcome, Georgette. 

 

[00:01:07] Georgette Gagnon

Thank you. 

 

[00:01:09] Melissa Fleming

It is quite a challenging time to be working in Afghanistan, especially as a woman and especially also with some dramatic cuts in assistance that are coming. We'll get to that in a minute. But the Taliban takeover in 2021 changed things hugely for women and girls. So, you took on this job at a particularly challenging time. Why did you decide to do it? 

 

[00:01:40] Georgette Gagnon

I was here from 2010 to 2015 in Afghanistan, heading up the UN's human rights team here as part of the mission and for Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights. So we worked so closely with many, many Afghans in the civil society and the NGOs, with women across the country, also with the different officials that were in power at that time. 

And when I saw what happened and was asked to come back to Afghanistan to lead this work in a very difficult time - the political work, which is very focused on also human rights - I had to come. I felt an obligation to come and work with the team and really try and support the efforts the UN was making to support, you know, the Afghan people around the country. 

 

[00:02:45] Melissa Fleming

It's been tough in this new situation, although there has been more access because the security situation has improved while the human rights situation has declined. But the new Trump administration has announced a 90-day review of foreign humanitarian assistance virtually putting to a halt critical US funding. Is this impacting Afghanistan? 

 

[00:03:10] Georgette Gagnon

Yes, it's having a huge impact on the programmes and the support and the life-saving assistance that the UN Country Team and OCHA [United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs] are delivering across the country. You know, Afghanistan is the second biggest humanitarian crisis in the world today. I think the ask was for about $3 billion for 2025, and the US was providing a huge, huge part of that. 

So right now, the agencies with the humanitarian partners are trying to specifically determine how that impacts all the Afghans, the kids, the women across the country, who receive this very vital support. You know, we had a discussion with the head of the US team. We really highlighted how crucial their support has been for years in this country. And we're providing them with all types of arguments for why this support needs to be, you know, reconsidered and reinstituted. 

 

[00:04:22] Melissa Fleming

The second biggest humanitarian crisis in the world. What does that look like and what does this humanitarian assistance look like as well? What is it doing to help people overcome? 

 

[00:04:34] Georgette Gagnon

Almost half of the population of Afghanistan needs humanitarian assistance, something like around 23 million people. And that's everything from food, essential medicines, polio vaccines, other types of vaccines and nutrition, in particular, health and nutrition support. It's also support, for example, people affected by earthquakes here last year. There was this huge Herat earthquake. Displaced people still need all types of support for shelter, for water, for food. So it really is life-saving assistance that's being impacted. 

 

[00:05:19] Melissa Fleming

I just wonder what is keeping you awake at night these days in light of this announcement, but in general when it comes to the situation in Afghanistan. 

 

[00:05:31] Georgette Gagnon

The main thing that keeps me awake is trying to figure out how we can take forward work with women and girls and really try and move the authorities here, the Taliban, on this issue. Very, very, very challenging because there's very little leverage that the UN and the international community has on this. And I think everyone, the non-governmental organizations who are all working on this, both inside and outside Afghanistan, keep trying to find ways and means to move this. How can we get a change in these policies, these decrees, these edicts? Very, very challenging. 

I've been talking to many women across Afghanistan, going out and meeting them, traveling across the country. They are finding what we call workarounds so that they can continue to do some forms of work, continue to educate each other to support the healthcare system. And we need to support that, and we are supporting that. But for example, the ban on girls going to school after grade six, the kind of extent or end of that ban, or review of that ban, is coming up in March by the Taliban. So a lot of effort now to try and see some change in this. That has to come mainly though from inside the Taliban or from inside Afghan society. That is what will likely move things. But we need to support all of that. 

 

[00:07:26] Melissa Fleming

What do those girls tell you when you go and reach out to them and meet them? And maybe you can just contrast that to the time when you were in Afghanistan before when those girls were going to school, when young women were going to university and then taking important jobs in society. 

 

[00:07:45] Georgette Gagnon

Huge contrast, of course. You used to see across the country, you know, hundreds of girls going to school. You'd see them on the street, coming in and out of the schools, at the university. I think Kabul University was at least half women. And the same in some of the other universities in Herat and some of the other parts of the country. Now, of course, you don't see that and it's heartbreaking. It's such a huge loss for the entire society, not only for these girls and their families, but society as a whole. And I think many, many Afghans know that and recognize that. So that really is the difference. 

But the young girls we're meeting today and who are in the schools up to grade six or in some of these other types of learning environments, they are so adamant that they want to stay in school and learn in whatever way they can. And I think the really striking thing is that they really want to support each other. I was in an area called Badakhshan recently and met some young girls in a school on the computers and things. And they said, you know, 'Our sisters in the remote areas don't have access to this. How can we help them? How can we support each other so that all of us can learn and continue to learn?' 

 

[00:09:24] Melissa Fleming

Is there a certain form of acceptance and then continuing to learn is a form of resistance then? 

 

[00:09:31] Georgette Gagnon

Sure, of course. That's very clear. And, you know, most of the young girls we meet and the women, they are doing what they can to continue to work and get educated, support their families, get access to healthcare, provide healthcare, work in the private sector. There are women who have businesses. They're continuing to work in spite of all the restrictions and around the restrictions. Sure, it may be a form of resistance, of course, but it's also a form of survival and a form of progress and advancement for them and their communities. 

 

[00:10:20] Melissa Fleming

What do they ask you for?   

 

[00:10:22] Georgette Gagnon

Full solidarity, full support. 'Do not forget us. Do not normalize and don't let others normalize what is happening here.' And that is a very, very important thing that these types of restrictions... You know this can't be the status quo here. It should not be allowed to just go on and on. Very, very difficult as I said though to see how to move in big steps. I think there's small steps that are being taken every day. And we need to support all of that. And this is the most important thing for the women and girls. We need your support inside and outside the country. And practical, pragmatic support. Condemnation, yes. But other types of support is very much needed. 

 

[00:11:20] Melissa Fleming

You are at a political mission and the leadership is two women. I wonder how the de facto authorities receive you and work with you. Is it more difficult for you to operate being a woman? 

 

[00:11:35] Georgette Gagnon

Well, there's unfortunately a difference between how the de facto authorities approach women who are not Afghan. There's certainly a difference there. And you see this in many of the places I've worked that as an international woman you get a different reception. So both the SRSG [Special Representative of the Secretary-General] and I meet regularly with Taliban leadership and have frank discussions with them about the situation of women and girls, about political issues. There's no issue there with talking or discussing in those types of environments. 

There has been one incident where I went out to one of our field offices and met with one of the de facto governors in a more, even more conservative location and he didn't want me to sit beside him in the meeting. So, I had to... You know, I sat one over. But there was still a discussion there. They're not huge issues there. But it's our national female colleagues from the UN who are most affected by the Taliban ban on women working for NGOs and for the UN. Although we have found different ways to still support them and have them come into the office or work online. But they are the ones who really are the most impacted by this. 

 

[00:13:21] Melissa Fleming

It must be very, very tough for them having these international jobs that were helping, you know, their societies, their communities, and then all of a sudden being unable to perform them in the way they were. I know the case that you were making is that half of the population being so restricted is setting Afghanistan back. What is the argument you make? Like what is the economic case that you make to integrate women and give them their rights back? 

 

[00:13:59] Georgette Gagnon

Yeah, the economic argument is… And I think the World Bank just did a study on this a couple months ago. They tried to look at the overall economic impact of the ban on girls' education. And as I recall, I don't recall the exact statistics. But it's at least $1 billion dollars a year or something like that that is kind of lost investment in girls and women, not getting these levels of education at university and at high school and then going to work and being very productive members of society. 

Also, both as consumers and also, of course, as contributors, right? Running businesses in the healthcare sector, education, businesses, manufacturing. I mean, you name it. But we are really trying to push the economic argument, because it's our view that it may have some resonance. That it's not only the family that's affected, it's the entire society and the country, which could be moving forward on the development front but is not. 

 

[00:15:18] Melissa Fleming

I wanted to ask you though, what is it about Afghanistan that brought you back? I mean, there must have been something also that you looked forward to in returning. 

 

 

 

[00:15:30] Georgette Gagnon

You know, I've been here five years, it's a long time, before. And had got to know the country quite well and the people. As I said, you know, many Afghans across the country. And you really have to admire - and I hope this doesn't sound kind of corny, if you want to use that term - the resilience, the courage, the survival skills, you know, the hospitality. I mean, it's really, really there. 

And also, I think for many Afghans, the welcoming of foreigners who've been here for a long time, of course. But the UN is still viewed as, you know, the real friends and supporters, I think of many, many Afghans. And here now, the UN is... We're the only ones on the ground across the country. And there's still a big role for the UN here. And I think that is why, one of the main reasons why I wanted to come back. 

 

[00:16:39] Melissa Fleming

It's a beautiful country too. 

 

[00:16:41] Georgette Gagnon

Beautiful, outstanding. Parts of it remind me, of course, of Canada, where I'm from - the mountainous regions. And we were just in this area called Badakhshan. And I felt like I was home in Alberta, which is where the Rocky Mountains are. But yes, it's a beautiful country physically. Stunning. 

 

[00:17:02] Melissa Fleming

Is the environment for you, the working environment, what is it like? I mean, what kind of security precautions do you have to take? I'm sure you also have to wear a hijab when you go out. 

 

[00:17:13] Georgette Gagnon

I think we have the kind of regular UN security that many of us have in special political missions. We're confined, if you want to call it that, in our compounds. But we go outside of the compound and meet different groups, communities, visit all our project sites. But there's a curfew in these types of things. And we don't go to restaurants or anything like that. Not in this environment. 

 

 

 

[00:17:48] Melissa Fleming

That's what it is. And you've served in so many challenging and difficult places over the years. You were in Syria in 2012. And I believe when you were there in Syria, and I'd like to ask you about that because that was right after the uprising and the beginning of the horrific war that drove so many people from their homes. I believe when you were there, your security was also threatened. You were attacked by an armed mob. What happened? 

 

[00:18:20] Georgette Gagnon

Yeah, it was just before things got... Well, things were already very bad at that point in time. We were in one part of the country called Latakia. And we had visited some of the officials, or we'd met the officials there. And then we said we got clearance to go see a site of a mass killing, an attack on a village, which was what we were doing day in and day out. And, you know, we were told, 'Yes, you can go and it's going to be clear.' 

And we started going. And we ended up being surrounded by vehicles and then a mob. They were throwing things and shooting at the tires. And then trying to get out of this, going up a highway the wrong way, there were people on the overpass, and they were throwing big, kind of cement things on the cars. Very difficult time. I will always thank the Finnish peacekeepers, at that point, ceasefire observers, who were driving the car got us out of that. And others were not so lucky. They had to kind of abandon the car and kind of seek shelter. No, it was not a good moment. 

 

[00:19:46] Melissa Fleming

It was a frightening time. I wonder how you felt when Assad fell and some hope for Syria emerged after all these years. 

 

[00:20:01] Georgette Gagnon

I mean, cautious optimism on what comes next. But it seems at least at this time, the mass of killing and torture has stopped. And now we'll see what kind of society will come forward and what Syrians will be able to do among themselves. There are thousands and thousands and thousands of disappeared people. We saw those images on television of the prisons, Sednaya being opened, all the records and documents now all over the place on the floor and elsewhere. 

How can all of this support accountability in people finding out what happened to their brothers and their mothers and their sisters and their fathers?  We have a colleague here in the mission whose father went into the system there 15 years ago. Is he still alive? Is he somewhere in the country? I mean, it's heartbreaking and needs to be supported. And now there may be an opportunity to do that. 

 

[00:21:10] Melissa Fleming

Maybe there'll be an opportunity that he'll know the fate of his dad. I think it has been one of the most heart-wrenching experiences for Syrians that is just not knowing the fate their family members. And then, now learning and already knowing because of the work that the UN did, what kind of conditions, what kind of torture was applied in those horrific jails. So how important is accountability for a society to rebuild and move on? 

 

[00:21:51] Georgette Gagnon

Accountability is what they want. You know, justice. And that allows them, I think, as families and individuals, to move forward, to have some... You know, people use this term, kind of "closure", of course. Finding out what happened and why, I think is most important. And there is what's called the right to truth. And rights to non-recurrence. And this is what accountability is all about and efforts at transitional justice. 

 

 

 

[00:22:29] Melissa Fleming

I read an article in which you were described, in doing the research for this interview, and you were described as the conscience of the war. Can't remember which war that was because you've served in Darfur in Sudan as well. I know you served in Libya during also turbulent times. Why do you think people describe you as the conscience? 

 

[00:22:58] Georgette Gagnon

Well, I'm not sure. But you know, if you're working on human rights, that's your job. Having a conscience is about serving humanity. You know, what am I doing every day for human beings? Particularly those who are in, you know, a much more challenging situation. We need to support their courage, their resilience, their need to survive. Well, of course, and their rights. 

 

[00:23:29] Melissa Fleming

You started out as a lawyer in Canada. I mean, what got you to decide that you were not going to be a corporate lawyer, but you were going to work on human rights? I understand you had a transformative experience in South Africa in 1994, in the first election after the apartheid. What happened? 

 

[00:23:48] Georgette Gagnon

Yeah, I was working at a big law firm in Toronto and there was an opportunity to go observe the first all-race elections in 1994 with a Canadian election monitoring team. And I thought, 'Well, that sounds really interesting.' And of course I hadn't really traveled much outside Canada. But I also had a colleague who was a reporter for a Canadian newspaper working in Johannesburg. And so he kind of said, 'This is like amazing, what's going on here.' 

So I managed to get myself onto this election observation team and I was able to go to South Africa for a couple of months. And I was deployed to a very remote what they called Black homeland at that time and saw the whole thing, people voting for the first time in their lives. I told this story of this very disabled man, you know, crawling on hands and knees into the polling station. And we had to support people who couldn't make the check on the ballot. And he whispered in my ear, Mandela. And I'm like, 'Oh my God, you know. This is just fantastic.' That was transformative. And then, you know, I want to support this type of thing. 

And then we went to see Nelson Mandela get inaugurated in, you know, in Johannesburg. And I mean, it was just... You know, it was transformative, for me anyway. And then I had also been to Rwanda as a UNV [United Nations volunteer], which again was part of the full transformation to doing human rights internationally and deciding that's what you need to do. 

 

[00:25:55] Melissa Fleming

This was after the genocide? 

 

[00:25:57] Georgette Gagnon

Yes, after the genocide in 1995. 

 

[00:26:01] Melissa Fleming

That was still a very raw time. And you went as a UNV, as a UN volunteer. What was your role there? And what did you see? And how did it affect you? 

 

[00:26:11] Georgette Gagnon

My job was to support rule of law and human rights and also look at the national efforts to address the genocide. But yes, I started, I guess, in the UN system as a UN volunteer, which I always say people should do. Go be a UN volunteer. See if you like working outside of your own country. 

 

[00:26:37] Melissa Fleming

And comfort zone. 

 

[00:26:38] Georgette Gagnon

And comfort zone, absolutely. Comfort zone. 

 

[00:26:43] Melissa Fleming

I wonder what your family thought about your choosing to leave a law firm and go to places like Rwanda. 

 

[00:26:51] Georgette Gagnon

Yeah, well, I'm fortunate that they're very supportive. And they, you know, both the parents and the husband for many, many years. So I'm... You know, it's great. So I know when I'm here, I'm not concerned about my family going, 'Oh my God, why isn't she coming home? And we can't stand this anymore.' They're very supportive and so it's kind of all of us together in this effort. That's the way I view it, my big extended family and my husband. 

 

[00:27:29] Melissa Fleming

It sounds like he's quite an unusual husband. I mean, the places that you've been deployed to are so-called non-family duty stations where you can't take him with you. 

 

[00:27:40] Georgette Gagnon

No. You cannot take the partner or the spouse. But you know, this is how we're living, and it works for us. 

 

[00:27:50] Melissa Fleming

What did your parents do? I mean, how did they encourage you growing up? 

 

[00:27:55] Georgette Gagnon

They were... They are big believers in social justice, volunteerism, serving the community, being in a profession where every day you are, you know, serving humanity. That's what you do as a teacher or an educator. And so that's kind of what we're all doing. That was how we lived. And very active in the community. My mother was an MPP for a period of time in Alberta, a member of parliament. So, really trying to take forward the values and kind of the social justice values. And I would say the Article I values. 

 

[00:28:52] Melissa Fleming

And it's serving the community and you're serving the global community. And yet, you know, it's a little bit different than working in a community in Canada. It's probably a bit of an ordeal to travel back anywhere. What do you miss mostly when you're in remote Kabul or in your previous field locations where you were actually quite at a distance from your family and friends and the comforts of life. 

 

[00:29:26] Georgette Gagnon

Well, my husband's cooking. He's the cook, and he's a great cook, so I do miss that. But now with WhatsApp and all the FaceTime and that, you can keep very good contact with family members. You couldn't do that in the old days, but you can do that now. And also, I think what's really important is to have two or three really good friends in the mission with you that you can work with and kind of socialize with and hang out with. 

 

[00:30:04] Melissa Fleming

What keeps you going, Georgette? 

 

[00:30:07] Georgette Gagnon

It's to support the Afghan people. And it really is. It really is. And women and girls. But also everyone, whole families that are affected by what's going on here. And the communities, the activists, the nurses, the doctors, you know, everyone. 

 

[00:30:32] Melissa Fleming

Thank you, Georgette. 

 

[00:30:34] Georgette Gagnon

Thank you. 

 

[00:30:36] Melissa Fleming

Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world a better and safer place. 

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please take the time to review us. It helps more people find the show.

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell, to Adam Paylor and to my colleagues at the UN: Katerina Kitidi, Roberta Politi, Carlos Macias, Abby Vardeleon, Laura Rodriguez De Castro, Anzhelika Devis, Tulin Battikhi and Bissera Kostova. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier.