Kelly T. Clements | The force of good is much stronger than the force of evil (S13-E1)

 

[00:00:00] Melissa Fleming

My guest this week has spent so much of her career helping refugees, and she keeps fighting for a more peaceful world. 

 

[00:00:10] Kelly T. Clements

How can we convince those that continue to wage wars, that continue to treat people badly? How can we show what's possible with a little hope, compassion, and more peace? The force of good is much stronger than the force of evil. 

 

[00:00:30] Melissa Fleming

Kelly Clements is the outgoing Deputy High Commissioner at the UN's Refugee Agency, UNHCR. From the United Nations, I'm Melissa Fleming. This is Awake at Night. Welcome, Kelly. 

 

[00:00:55] Kelly T. Clements

Thank you, Melissa. Nice to be here. 

 

[00:00:57] Melissa Fleming

Well, it's really great to be with you here in Geneva at UNHCR headquarters where you're based, and where we used to work together. 

 

[00:01:04] Kelly T. Clements

Exactly. Your old home. 

 

[00:01:06] Melissa Fleming

My old home. I know I'm feeling rather nostalgic being here. And working together, helping refugees. And you've spent more than 30 years working on refugee and humanitarian issues. First, I want to take you back to your beginning in this field. I understand you had a transformative experience in Bangladesh working with Rohingya refugees in Myanmar. And that was when you were just 25 years old. Can you talk about that a bit. 

 

[00:01:40] Kelly T. Clements

Yes, I was a youngster. No longer a youngster. Yes. No, this was when the very early part of my time with the US government I was on a special programme where we did rotations to other agencies overseas and I was seconded to the UN Refugee Agency at the time. And I started off as external relations, donor relations, in the Dhaka office. But that is not where I wanted to be. I wanted it to be in Cox’s Bazar where, of course, we had welcomed 200,000 Rohingya refugees with the Bangladesh communities. 

So during this period of time that I was seconded to HCR, I actually then filled a protection role in this emergency. And it was a dynamic time. And we had Rohingya that were coming across from Myanmar in very large numbers still - families, many women with children, no spouses, no husbands, no partners. And it was quite a dramatic scene. I was assigned as a protection officer to go regularly to the camps, which just was mind-blowing because, of course, this was my first real experience in a situation like this. My job was to see how we were doing, how were the partners delivering, what protection needs there were that UNHCR could assist. And to support the government. And so very dense population, acute needs, and just humanity, of course, with many different demands. 

And so one particular experience I had. And I was accompanied by a still very close friend today who was the field associate. And we had a conversation with a woman that I think her name was Fatima. It's been a long time now, but I know she had five children. That stuck in my head. And at that time we didn't have the technology of today. Where it was a food ration card, a physical card with basically a stamp or a clip that she would take to go and get food for herself and her five children. 

And I went into her... And you've been, I think, in these shelters, Melissa. Cramped small quarters with flimsy roofs. You can see the holes with the light coming through in terms of the thatch. And of course, we sat on the floor, on the ground. There was a mat, but basically nothing else. And we had this conversation with Fatima about what had happened to her in the last week. And she had lost her ration card. And she was getting no support in terms of getting it replaced from the government officials. There wasn't much food anyway. A refugee population completely dependent on the international community's support for the government. 

And so my 25-year-old self, you know, kind of screwed up all of her courage and went into this Camp-in-Charge and explained Fatima's story and said, 'We just can't have this happen to this family.' And he ended up reinstating her ration card. And I went back a week later to this particular camp - I think it was Kutupalong - to see how things had been. And Fatima was... First, she gave me an enormous hug. And then she proceeded to, you know, basically reintroduce me to her five children. And she was so grateful. 

And of course, it was for me it was a life-changing moment, not because of what I did, but because of what kind of an impact it had on another human being. And how much it told me about how unless we are willing to take an extra step to reach out the hand to support that people will not be helped, will not be aided. May lose their lives. May not be able to support their families. 

And so it was one of those stories where it's just every little act, as small as it can be, makes a difference. And for me that was probably a turning point, and again, probably why I'm sitting with you today, Melissa. Because unfortunately - and we'll get to this - I know there are lots of Fatimas in the world today. Many more than there were back in 1992. And it is something that continues to drive me. 

 

 

[00:06:03] Melissa Fleming

And these Fatimas are fleeing horrific conditions. Could you just describe what Fatima and all those 250,000 refugees who suddenly came into Bangladesh were fleeing? 

 

[00:06:16] Kelly T. Clements

Well, unfortunately, very much similar to the story of 2017 and the million Rohingya that are now in Bangladesh with the generous hospitality of Bangladesh, but still an unsustainable issue. It's the largest stateless population in the world. People without a nationality. Not recognized by any government. And something that obviously UNHCR has a mandate to try to support in terms of trying to make it possible for some solution to be found. 

And at the time that Fatima and others were coming to Bangladesh, there were stories of sexual violence and rape. There were stories of forced labour. There was education restrictions and a persecution of this minority. And that was... It was brought home to me again. One of the reasons that I was seconded to UNHCR was to look at how we were doing on implementing a new policy on refugee women. And that was to try to ensure that everything we were doing was making sure that we kept the people that we were supporting front and centre, and to make sure that we were not inadvertently making things worse by the way we delivered and tried to protect. 

And another story from that situation. There was a high-level delegation that came to the camps while I was posted in Cox's Bazar. And those that were organizing the camp visit - it was not UNHCR - decided it would be a good idea to basically single out all of the women who had supposedly been raped and put them on a hill with a sign in front of them that said: “rape victims.” And I walked into... This was before the delegation came. And I walked in just to see if things were in place and saw this. And again, 25 years old. Huge apparatus supporting a high level visit to one of the governments. And I had to try to make a change quickly because I knew that... Inexperienced as I was, I knew that wasn't right. And it certainly wasn't consistent with any policy. And it certainly would continue to stigmatize a group of women who had already been through so much. 

 

[00:08:40] Melissa Fleming

So what did you do? 

 

[00:08:41] Kelly T. Clements

So, well, we had to dance around a little bit with the diplomacy, but we did, in fact... We used it a bit as a learning moment and it didn't happen again. It was, yeah... It was pretty shocking to me. 

 

[00:08:54] Melissa Fleming

We've come a long way and not always in a good way, but certainly refugee protection has improved since then. But let's go back to where you grew up in Maine. And then you studied in Virginia Tech. So how did it make you feel to suddenly be confronted with all that suffering and all that poverty? I'm sure that's not what you grew up seeing. 

 

[00:09:20] Kelly T. Clements

Yeah. No, I did grow up in a little town that was not terribly diverse, by the way. But it was a town that is known for three things. It's in the middle of Maine. Old Town canoes, a Native American reservation and a paper mill, which if you were in a particular place at a particular time of the day, you definitely knew the paper mill was there. 

But my father... Both of my parents were academics, and my father started the Canadian-American Center at the University of Maine at Orono. And he had lots of visitors at home. And they were visitors not just from other parts of the state or other parts of the country, but internationally, overseas, particularly in Canada, given that he was a Canadian historian. So, this, you know, in terms of... It kind of opened up a world, a mini worldview for me. And my mother being a librarian in terms of being able to make sure that we were reading often and we were exploring new adventures and that sort of thing as we were growing up, including taking us to debate camp halfway across the country and lots of sacrifices. 

But I think some of that was good scaffolding, if I can put it that way in terms of what then I would see. It doesn't mean that it wasn't shocking, particularly the poverty. There was some poverty, certainly, in Old Town, Maine too. Not everybody with the ability to be able to put a roof over their heads or feed their families. A microcosm, obviously, of what we see across the globe that only inspires, though, further action and, for me, even more curiosity. In these adventures - I know you have traveled extensively, Melissa, too - each time you learn something new. Each time you... 

And some of these situations, they are very acute. Emergencies like Sudanese from Darfur crossing the border in very large numbers to Chad. Horrific, horrific stories. And you think, 'My God, the brutality. How is it that one human being can treat another human being like this?' I don't think anything really prepares you. But I suppose, given my upbringing and given the foundation  - that safe home that my parents created with a very strong nuclear family, and I have a strong nuclear now with my husband and my two children - that that's my protection. And so I take that into a situation and then I think first off how lucky I am. It drives me to think what more can I do to try to alleviate poverty, persecution, inequality. 

 

 

[00:12:13] Melissa Fleming

And to allow people to have a similar sense of security that you have like a family and a home and... You chose to actually work at the State Department. But first I'm going to just go back to your being at Virginia Tech because you mentioned your husband and I believe, didn't you meet him on like the second day at college?  

 

[00:12:38] Kelly T. Clements

Something like that. Yeah, on the golf course. It was, I think, just before classes started. So I wasn't skipping school. And he had a lab that was not taking place that day. Yeah, so we were both playing golf alone, and we ended up joining up, which then turned into almost 38 years of marriage, actually, later this month. And we've been together on and off in the early years, but on and off for 42 years. And he's extraordinary. He actually didn't think about going into international affairs when he first met me. He was a bench scientist and studying anaerobes and bacteria. He used that in his later part of his career on pandemic preparedness and response. And he was with USAID for over 20 years and until last January. 

 

[00:13:30] Melissa Fleming

When USAID ceased to exist. 

 

[00:13:32] Kelly T. Clements

Exactly. It was very, very dramatic and also brutal, in its own way, particularly the impact of the closing of that agency on the rest of the world. So, yes, he's a lifelong partner and my best friend. 

 

[00:13:47] Melissa Fleming

We could probably do a podcast on how one maintains that many years of marriage while pursuing an international career with all kinds of travel and disruptions, raising two children. 

 

[00:13:59] Kelly T. Clements

Good communication. 

 

[00:14:00] Melissa Fleming

Very good. Okay. 

 

[00:14:02] Kelly T. Clements

That's the key. 

 

[00:14:03] Melissa Fleming

Good communication probably and similar beliefs in working to help people around the world. And so what motivated you to join the State Department? 

 

[00:14:17] Kelly T. Clements

Given what I told you about Maine and given my curiosity about the world, I knew I wasn't going to stay in Maine. And I wanted to go closer to where in the US I thought the action was when it comes to foreign policy and international affairs, and that's Washington, D.C. I chose Virginia Tech because it was, one, a little warmer than Maine. And two, because it was closer to where I thought I might end up. 

And it was the chair of our programme basically nominated one of my best friends still today and myself as two nominees to the Presidential Management Fellows Program. It's designed to basically pluck people from their master's programmes into public service rather than going to the private sector. Public administration degrees. That sort of thing. And then you get to see a little bit, get some different experiences and so on. And it was a great entree given that my parents... I went to public schools. Virginia Tech is a land-grant university. Public service has been part of my life. That was something that really appealed to me at the international level. 

So the State Department was offering several positions at that time, and one was in this little bureau called the Refugee Bureau. I didn't know what a refugee was, really, when I interviewed for the position, but I loved the idea and the people that I met. In terms of the idea of international cooperation, because the job was actually the junior desk officer for UNHCR. And so one thing, Melissa... One thing led to another. 

 

[00:15:52] Melissa Fleming

What was it about refugees that made you say, 'Okay, I'm not going to become a diplomat traveling around the world and doing all kinds of different things, but I am going to really focus on protecting refugees, helping refugees?' 

 

[00:16:09] Kelly T. Clements

I really think it was those early experiences. And, you know, I did play with the idea actually of leaving, going off and getting another master's degree that was more specialized. But each time there was an opportunity that kind of dropped in my lap, I thought, 'This is very interesting.' And unfortunately, given the way the world turns, there was one emergency after another. 

And so when I was... I ended up coming back to Geneva in the mid-90s. I was put on a Foreign Service position, and I served here for three years. We then had, of course, the Balkans Wars. In the mid 90s we had the Great Lakes and the genocide in Rwanda. You know, all of that was happening. It felt like... Even though I was far away here in Geneva, it felt like I was very close to it. 

 

[00:17:02] Melissa Fleming

And you did deploy. You went to Albania, I believe. 

 

[00:17:05] Kelly T. Clements

I did. That was later after I went back to Washington. And this was during the Kosovo exodus in 1999. And that was another formative... Each time, these formative experiences just continued to build. 

 

[00:17:19] Melissa Fleming

The formative ones were especially when you were on the front lines. 

 

[00:17:25] Kelly T. Clements

Yes. 

 

[00:17:25] Melissa Fleming

So what did you see when you went to Albania? 

 

[00:17:27] Kelly T. Clements

In Albania, it was a very small embassy, and I was deployed as the refugee expert. And that was, you know, what we were trying to do to support Albania with a million Kosovars. 

 

[00:17:42] Melissa Fleming

A million? 

 

[00:17:43] Kelly T. Clements

A million Kosovars between Albania and Macedonia, but most of them were in Albania. We had, of course, NATO involved. It was an enormous, enormous operation. And there is a... You know, I was looking... I'm doing a lot of reflecting these days and there's a picture that I still have in my office that a photographer named Carol Guzy took. And it's a picture of a Kosovar child being passed through barbed wire to their family, her family - I think it was a little girl - on the other side of the wire. And that was between basically what is now Serbia and Kosovo and Kosovo and Albania. 

In fact, it was also a key learning moment because, you know, the international community of which we were part, were trying to plan for refugee returns. Well, while we were planning for refugee returns, basically the million people ended up just walking back themselves. They chose when they were ready to return. When it was safe enough. When all kinds of things make a decision about whether one returns. But again, another learning moment. It is not up to us, the international community, to make that decision. 

 

 

[00:18:57] Melissa Fleming

So many refugees would love to be like those Kosovars then that just could pick up and walk home. The millions that we have now... And I'm just thinking of the Syria crisis, which for what was it, 15 years, millions and millions of Syrians have lived in exile and finally, some of them are making the decision to go home. But I'm thinking about you because I believe the Syria crisis was also quite formative for you. And at that time in 2015, you were appointed to Deputy High Commissioner for Refugees at UNHCR. Before we get to Syria, what made you decide to come to the UN?  

 

[00:19:44] Kelly T. Clements

Certainly my dream job. I think it's the best job in the UN. Sorry to say that right in front of you, but it is. And yes, I aspired to it. There's no doubt about it. And I was very lucky. I had great support. 

 

[00:19:57] Melissa Fleming 

But you arrived here at the height of the Syrian refugee crisis. Millions of Syrians were fleeing the conflict there. That must have been a tremendous challenge to walk into. 

 

[00:20:12] Kelly T. Clements

It was starting already in 2014. You could see the aid decreasing. In fact, in Lebanon, there were serious cuts with the World Food Programme on the food and cash assistance side. UNHCR had less than it needed in order to support the host communities and the refugees. And the pressure was mounting. And we started seeing people take to boats, try to get to Cyprus, even then. But also just the pressure in terms of communities. 

And as I was coming in 2015, it was full on, in terms of movements to Europe. And it wasn't just Syrians, of course. We had Afghans. We had many people coming from parts of the world. And so that kind of trigger, in terms when you see aid decline and it has an immediate impact on people, they're going find ways to survive. They're going to find ways to support themselves. And often that means movement and leaving where they are. And those, if I can say, some lost their lives. Too many lost their lives. Some reached safety and that protection. But of course there were many that couldn't leave. And so it's those people of course we worried about too. 

 

[00:21:28] Melissa Fleming

Yeah but there's perhaps a new hope in Syria. And I wonder how it makes you feel to see so many... I believe 1.5 million Syrians have returned home. 

 

[00:21:41] Kelly T. Clements

Actually 3.5 million. There are 1.5 [million] or so refugees that have come primarily from Jordan and Lebanon, but also from other areas. But internally displaced. Because, you know, you've been there many times, Melissa. People over that 15-year period were displaced again and again and again. And because people want to stay close to home, crossing a border is the last option. They often find other communities in their own countries to be able to find that safety. And that's happened in the Syria situation. So yes, we've seen a large number of Syrians go home. It's mostly a good news story. 

Not without challenges, of course. And the government has a huge responsibility with many different priorities that they're trying to bring this kind of peace and stability back to the country. But I was actually in Syria, not too long ago, and talking to families about what choices they're making. Now, of course, we've got the dynamic with regard to what's happening in Lebanon currently. Displaced Lebanese and Syrians that can no longer stay in Lebanon, either for safety reasons or otherwise. So you also have almost 300,000 people who have crossed just in the last couple of months. So it's a, I would say, a mixed picture, but perhaps a kernel of hope. 

 

[00:23:01] Melissa Fleming

A kernel of hope, but also against the backdrop of massive funding cuts from the United States. But also many European donors have cut their funds at a time in a country like Syria where it needs massive investment, which would be in the interests of the international community because they want people to be able to return home. 

 

[00:23:24] Kelly T. Clements

Yes. You know, again, in my reflective mode - because 11 years now almost I've been here - when I came in, there were 62 million people that were forced to flee. We're now at close to 120 million people forced to flee. 

 

[00:23:42] Melissa Fleming

So it's doubled. 

 

[00:23:43] Kelly T. Clements

When I came in we had about [$]3.5 billion in resources that we were able to provide to operations. That went up a couple of years ago to almost [$]6 billion. And this year we're going to be less than [$]3 billion. So double the need. Less than we had 11 years ago. And massive needs that we are not able to meet. 

 

[00:24:06] Melissa Fleming

So what does that mean when you think of those people who will no longer receive the assistance, the benefits from the UN family that are so needed to survive? 

 

[00:24:20] Kelly T. Clements

We see it. We see resources drying up in many locations. We see partners. And particularly the local partners, that we've really tried to expand our partnership, including with financial resources and the like. They can't sustain themselves. We see programmes shutting down, programmes that are life-saving. Literally life-saving to try to provide support to those that have suffered from sexual violence. Kids' schooling, which, of course, that is an investment in the future. That's an investment in those that hopefully someday will go back to their countries and help to rebuild. For UNHCR, it's been... You know, we're not alone, but the humanitarian sector as a whole. But for UNHCR, it has been particularly devastating. We've had to say goodbye to 6,500 of our colleagues. 

 

 

[00:25:08] Melissa Fleming

6,500? 

 

[00:25:08] Kelly T. Clements

6,500 of our workforce. Anyway, but it's all been done extraordinarily fast. 

 

[00:25:15] Melissa Fleming

Because the cuts came so unexpectedly. 

 

[00:25:19] Kelly T. Clements

Yes. And that's not... Obviously, change is just part of life. And we've been changing constantly over the time that I've been here for sure. 

 

[00:25:29] Melissa Fleming

But there was a certain... I mean, you came from the US government. And there was always, no matter what, because there was bipartisan support for UNHCR and for refugee protection. So you didn't expect this sudden cut. 

 

[00:25:44] Kelly T. Clements

No. No. Not by a long shot. And in fact, in the previous Trump administration, we ended the fourth year of his term with $2 billion from the US government. Last year, the US remained our number one supporter, but it was just over $800 million, so more than a 50% drop. And this year, we are far from that. 

 

[00:26:11] Melissa Fleming

How do you make the case to them? 

 

[00:26:13] Kelly T. Clements

That it's in the American interests. That what happens so far away from the US impacts the US. We've just been talking about Syria. We've been talking about movements. We haven't talked about the Americas, but if you don't invest in asylum systems, in people's wellbeing, then it becomes an immediate problem. 

 

 

[00:26:34] Melissa Fleming

And meanwhile, those needs, because of the state of our world, are surging. And one of the worst wars is Sudan that has caused the worst displacement and the most suffering. And I believe you recently traveled there. What did you see? 

 

[00:26:54] Kelly T. Clements

I had an opportunity, yes, to actually go. This was before Khartoum was... We've now moved, as the UN are moving back to the capital city, but it was one of those early trips. Twelve hours by car from Port Sudan down to Khartoum, going to the office that basically we inhabited for a couple of decades and seeing it just leveled. Including some of the places where we used to receive refugees to be able to find ways to be able to support them. 

 

[00:27:29] Melissa Fleming

Just bombed. 

 

[00:27:29] Kelly T. Clements

Just bombed. It's, you know, nothing left in terms of structure, really. It's just a metal sheet. And the devastation in the capital, in parts of the capital, is really dramatic. But in other parts of the capital people are coming back. And they're trying to rebuild. And the small businesses are starting to take root again. So it's a very dynamic situation. 

But then you're talking about the emergencies and the emergencies particularly in Darfur and other parts of the country. It rages on and it's brutal. And peace is obviously what the Sudanese need. It's not coming quickly enough. And meanwhile, you've got people going to Chad. People going to South Sudan. Others just trying to find some way of getting out of harm's way. 

And I mentioned this earlier, but the stories that women in particular tell, we've not... In every war, somehow there is a component of sexual violence. The way that rape has been used as a way to humiliate and to disenfranchise and to brutalize a population, I've never heard worse stories. So that at its very root... I think the international community, trying to keep eyes on Sudan, that's real. Because the world attention goes so quickly from one place to another. But we really need to keep our attention on Sudan and get the warring parties to somehow... 

 

[00:29:18] Melissa Fleming

How did it make you feel to hear those stories from women? Because I know and I know from working with you that you have been, and even from you just mentioned way back when you started in this career, that you were assigned to focus on the particular needs of women, the particular vulnerabilities of women. And you have in your work here made this a priority. Not just that this is a focus for refugee women, but also that we as UN staff members, that there is absolutely no tolerance for sexual violence or any kind of sexual harassment in the workforce. Why are you so passionate about this? 

 

[00:30:04] Kelly T. Clements

I'm a firm believer that how we treat each other is an indication of how we treat people that we are here to support. And if we don't treat each other well, you can be quite certain that we're not going to treat the people that we serve or are working with well. And so that atmosphere and that culture becomes incredibly important. 

And we had a moment over the last decade, this #MeToo movement. And where we in UNHCR actually had a kind of awakening, if I can put it that way, in terms of, let's look at ourselves in the mirror. How are we doing? And are we doing enough so that our colleagues feel safe in remote locations, in places where if things go wrong, do they feel safe to be able to report? Are there ways that we can make that easier? 

And then of course, the sexual exploitation abuse when we talk about when we do the worst possible and actually abuse someone that we are supposed to be saving or protecting or finding safety or somehow. That it's so incongruent. So we... I've been... This has been something that I've... The kind of environment in terms of being able to speak up to the kinds of steps that we will take, including as a system, when there are perpetrators in the system, all of this across the board, continues to be a huge priority.

 

[00:31:45] Melissa Fleming

You have also had to deal with the impact of people fleeing the war in Ukraine. And I believe you also visited I mean, here in this middle of Europe, a country, Moldova, that was receiving generously so many Ukrainian refugees. How did that feel to you to see once again…? I mean, you dealt with war in your early career in Europe but seeing the impact of war returning to Europe and refugees again. 

 

[00:32:18] Kelly T. Clements

Well of course the war rages on in even more sophisticated ways and ways to harm people. The stories and the people that we meet. Unbelievable resilience. You know, a couple of stories really stay with me of women, again, leading in communities, in places that have had attacks. 

One woman, you know, basically her greenhouse that was supplying tomatoes for the whole community had a grenade fall on it. And we, as UNHCR local partners, came to help her to repair that to be able to then support the rest of the community. I mean, the impacts. But having the story, having a conversation with her about what she'd been through and what she was thinking about for the future, the strength and the courage. Just unbelievable. And that, you see it. You see it in Moldova. You see in parts of Europe. But you see very importantly inside Ukraine.  

 

[00:33:24] Melissa Fleming

What does that say about just the basics of what people need in these most desperate times? 

 

[00:33:32] Kelly T. Clements

It is very basic, and it's very tangible. But it's also, it's a frame of mind that... You know, each of the people that we meet when we are talking about their stories, it is rare that I have a conversation with somenone who's giving up. It's looking forward. Often it's about people's families, their children, what's next in terms of their future. Many of the women that I've spoken with in Chad, they left Darfur running to save their lives, but also for their children's future. So it's... Yeah, it's all of us. You know, all of us have these needs. 

 

[00:34:19] Melissa Fleming

You've returned repeatedly to Bangladesh and also to the Rohingya. What was it like going back? 

 

[00:34:28] Kelly T. Clements

Oh, very emtional. I'm actually going to go back later this month for... I don't know how many times I've been there in addition to living there, but it's been many now. And it will also be an emotional return. Obviously, it won't all be joyful. They would like to provide for themselves. They would like to support themselves. They'd like to give back. They'd like to rebuild. They'd like to go home. And so obviously there will be very important parts of that mission in terms of advocacy, but it also will be a reminder about why this work is so important and why we need to continue to persevere, challenges notwithstanding. 

 

[00:35:12] Melissa Fleming

It's been a huge focus of yours to find what we call at UNHCR solutions. Solutions which means that refugees don't end up like the Rohingya refugees have ended up, stuck in exile for decades. How does that make you feel when you see a population like that just stranded? 

 

[00:35:34] Kelly T. Clements

Heart broken because I know what's possible. I know when people are enabled, whether it's a policy change or just a little bit of support, what people are capable of. And we find ourselves... I mean, we're very fortunate to be where we are to have been born in places that have not been subject to conflict and persecution. To not be part of a minority that is despised in their homeland. 

 

[00:36:04] Melissa Fleming

To have a passport. 

 

[00:36:05] Kelly T. Clements

To have passport. You know, all of these things that we take for granted. 

 

[00:36:09] Melissa Fleming

Kelly, what keeps you awake at night? 

 

[00:36:13] Kelly T. Clements

Somehow I knew you were going to ask this question. 

 

[00:36:16] Melissa Fleming

Because I always ask it. 

 

[00:36:18] Kelly T. Clements

No, seriously, it's the people we can't reach. It's the people that somehow are suffering and are not protected and are not safe and we have no way to get to them. And that, by extension, it is my incredible team here. And what they try to do day in and day out, often taking great risk. And their frustration with not being able to reach the people that they're very close to operationally. And I think the combination of that. The combination of that is what I spend a lot of time thinking about how can we do things differently? How can we convince those that continue to wage wars, that continue to treat people badly? How can we show what's possible with a little hope, compassion and more peace? 

 

[00:37:19] Melissa Fleming

More peace. Your mandate is coming to an end, Kelly. How do you feel about moving on and starting a next chapter? 

 

[00:37:32] Kelly T. Clements

Good things have to come to an end, and I have been here indeed a long time. I'm told that I'm the longest serving Deputy High Commissioner now. And it's time for a new challenge, new opportunity. Hopefully to be able to give back because there's so much work to be done in so many parts of the world. I think you can count on me continuing to be a presence and a voice in this space. But mixed feelings, because I have just... This is family. We say, and I think you know this, Melissa, that once you're part of UNHCR, you're always part of UNHCR. So I'll continue the friendships and the close collaboration with colleagues who have become friends. But looking forward to new chapters. 

 

[00:38:22] Melissa Fleming

And no doubt you'll continue to help refugees. 

 

[00:38:25] Kelly T. Clements

Yes, absolutely. 

 

 

[00:38:27] Melissa Fleming

Are you still optimistic in any way that this world will get better? 

 

[00:38:33] Kelly T. Clements

Yes. Yes, because, you know, there are too many people that I meet or read about in terms of what they're doing in their communities, in their countries, to make positive change and to bring communities together. And I think that force, the force of good is much stronger than the force of evil. 

 

[00:38:57] Melissa Fleming

Kelly, it was really wonderful to talk to you and to learn more about your incredible life story. 

 

[00:39:03] Kelly T. Clements

Thank you, Melissa. I enjoyed it. 

 

[00:39:06] Melissa Fleming

Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world a better and safer place.

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please take the time to review us. It helps more people to find the show. 

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell and to my colleagues at the UN: Katerina Kitidi, Roberta Politi, Geneva Damayanti, Abby Vardeleon, Alison Corbet, Laura Rodriguez de Castro, Eric Balgley, Jason Candler, Benji Candelario, Anzhelika Devis, Tulin Battikhi, Bissera Kostova, Brianna Rowe, Joon Park, and Taeyoung Lee. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier.