1 Tuesday, 7 June 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.13 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, you're on your feet.

7 MR. NICE: I had thought I'd finished yesterday. On review, there

8 was one particular small point that I should have put in terms, it being

9 part of the case against this accused, and it arises from a document we've

10 already looked at and that would take a couple of minutes.

11 I was also provided last night, as a result of publicity given to

12 the testimony of this witness, with two documents clearly of importance,

13 documents that undoubtedly should have been provided to us pursuant to

14 requests for assistance, assuming the documents are what they appear to

15 be, and I would, with leave, ask questions about those two documents. It

16 won't take very long but they are on a central issue dealt with by the

17 witness yesterday.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, Mr. Nice, but before you do that

19 there's a matter that I have to raise with you. It has to do with the

20 video recording that was played last Wednesday, the 1st. That was done

21 with the Chamber's approval, but nonetheless it was in breach of an order

22 issued by this Chamber on the 11th of May granting protective measures.

23 Were you aware of that?

24 MR. NICE: I'm grateful for advance warning of this problem which

25 we were provided with, and I've been able to review the history. If there

1 was any violation of the order, it was of course accidental and unknowing.

2 I say "if there was a violation of the order" for this reason: The order

3 was directed to the Defence, not to the Prosecution, and was limited in

4 the relief it gave compared with what was sought. But in any event,

5 because the issue wasn't conscious one way or the other, that may be a

6 technicality.

7 The position is that the team dealing with this case made all

8 appropriate inquiries of both investigators and lawyers in the other case

9 and was not alerted to the existence of any then existing restriction on

10 use of the video at all. That may be because, of course, the need for

11 protection had by then completely passed. The need for protection relied

12 on by the Prosecution in its application in the other case related to a

13 particular individual, and the concerns for that individual were then

14 already matters of history. Had it not been, it wouldn't have been

15 possible to rely on the video at all.

16 So that inquiries were made; the existence of this order did not

17 come to our attention. In those circumstances, what was done was done

18 without knowledge of any potential breach or violation. In any event, it

19 may be that technically there is no violation because the order was

20 directed to the Defence and not the Prosecution.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: In any event, the Chamber issued an order

22 yesterday which you must have seen.

23 MR. NICE: Yes.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: In which we indicated that in light of the

25 widespread publicity, the Chamber was minded to lift the restrictions.

1 MR. NICE: There is absolutely no resistance to that order by

2 either those prosecuting this particular accused or indeed by anybody else

3 in the office.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

5 Ms. Higgins.

6 MS. HIGGINS: Your Honour, the view of the assigned counsel is

7 that it accords with the view taken by the Trial Chamber in this matter,

8 given the circumstances.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Very well. We'll issue an order

10 lifting the restrictions.

11 Mr. Nice, proceed.

12 MR. NICE: Thank you very much.

13 WITNESS: OBRAD STEVANOVIC [Resumed]

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice: [Continued]

16 Q. Mr. Stevanovic, just two points I'm going to raise with you this

17 morning unless, of course, you've got answers to any of your queries, but

18 that will come later.

19 Dealing with the Skorpions and their engagement in Kosovo and in

20 respect of the Cvjetan prosecution of which we spoke yesterday, you said

21 this in evidence: "I claim that these two men -" that's the two accused -

22 "belonged to the reserve force of the special anti-terrorist unit and they

23 could not have belonged to any kind of paramilitary group. They were only

24 as individuals members of the reserve force of that unit."

25 Do you remember saying that?

1 A. Well, I think that's roughly what I said.

2 Q. I want you to look at two documents that I'm going to suggest to

3 you show beyond any doubt that the Skorpions were formally subordinated at

4 the time of the Kosovo conflict, documents that came to light yesterday as

5 a result of publicity given to your testimony and the subject of draft

6 translations, and formal translations will be provided in due course.

7 If you'd be good enough, please, to look first at the document

8 that is headed "Republic of Serbia, Ministry of Internal Affairs,

9 Organised Crime Directorate, O, Strictly Confidential."

10 And if you will turn, please, to the second page in the Serbian

11 version you will have, you will see that it is signed by Radovan Knezevic.

12 You know who he was?

13 A. Yes, I know.

14 Q. And I'm going to have to read most of this. It reads as follows:

15 It's addressed to the Prokuplje court, so that's the court where these men

16 were being tried.

17 It says that: "The Organised Crime Directorate acted upon your

18 request in regard to collecting needed information, for the purpose of

19 conducting a successful investigation against ... Cvjetan Sasa and

20 Demirovic Dejan..."

21 Next point: "... established the following: The accused -" and

22 they're named - "were members of the 'Skorpions' unit during March 1999.

23 "The unit 'Skorpions' was founded as a unit of volunteers and had

24 128 members.

25 "The commander of the unit 'Skorpions' was Slobodan Medic, also

1 known as 'Boca', and his Deputy was Manojlovic Srdjan, also known as

2 'Srle'.

3 "From the members of 'Skorpions' the following members have been

4 identified by their nickname: Vuksic Zoran, also known as 'Zuca'; Djukic

5 Zeljko, also known as 'Brka'; Medic Dragan, also known as 'Guljo'.

6 "On 25 March 1999, the 'Skorpions' unit was transferred to the

7 reserve formations of SAJ MUP, with the agreement of Colonel-General

8 Vlastimir Djordjevic, the head of the Public Security Department of MUP at

9 that time, and it was sent to Prolom Banja for further engagement.

10 "On 27 March 1999, around 1800, Simovic Zoran, the commander of

11 SAJ Beograd at that time, went to Prolom Banja in order to take the unit

12 'Skorpions' under his command.

13 "Upon the arrival in Podujevo, Simovic and Medic went to the

14 premises where SAJ was accommodated and they found there Stalevic

15 Radoslav, the commander of the Pristina SAJ at that time.

16 "Medic remained at the premises where SAJ was accommodated and

17 Simovic and Stalevic went to OUP Podujevo, for consultations on further

18 engagement and on accommodation of the members of the reserve formations

19 of the SAJ - the unit 'Skorpions.'

20 "During their stay in OUP Podujevo, Simovic and Stalevic heard

21 several long firearms sounds from the direction of the location where the

22 unit was to be accommodated.

23 "Upon his arrival at the place of the incident, Simovic was

24 informed that several members of the reserve formations of SAJ, the

25 'Skorpions' shot at women and children, the inhabitants of Podujevo.

1 "From the active formation of SAJ the first person who arrived at

2 the place of the incident was Vucelic Spasoje, also known as 'Vuk', who

3 was at the time the commander of the platoon for support of SAJ, and

4 currently deputy commander of SAJ MUP.

5 "The first aid to the wounded ..." was dealt with. "After this

6 event, Simovic gave orders to Medic to bring back all members of his unit

7 under his command from Podujevo to Prolom Banja, which Medic did."

8 Now, that's the first document. I suggest to you that that

9 document makes it as clear as can be that the Skorpions were entirely

10 formally subordinated to the SAJ of which you were at that time the

11 commander.

12 A. Let me first answer the second part of the question. Never in my

13 life have I been commander of SAJ nor have I ever been responsible for

14 them. I only had contacts with the SAJ if I directly conducted training

15 with them. But of course if this text is correct, it confirms the first

16 part of your statement, but I am seeing this document for the first time,

17 and I'm coming face-to-face with these facts for the first time.

18 I told you yesterday what I found out from the newspapers, and I

19 brought the newspapers because I thought it was my duty, and whenever you

20 wish me to I'll show them to both you and the Trial Chamber.

21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I accept your first point.

22 It's my error. They were subordinated to the public service part of the

23 MUP of which you were a senior officer. The SAJ in particular were

24 commanded by Zivko Trajkovic. Would that be correct?

25 A. Yes, that is correct. The commander was Zivko Trajkovic, but I

1 would add that concerning the other facts I presented yesterday, I still

2 maintain they are true. Regarding the procedure for admission into the

3 reserve force, and as to what I said that --

4 Q. Very well.

5 A. -- admitting any units as such from any other category or

6 structure is something not envisaged by the law.

7 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... briefly and has one missing

8 passage in it. That can be distributed. It's already been distributed, I

9 think. And this comes -- goes to the assistant minister of public

10 security, Djordjevic, and is signed indeed by the commander Zivko

11 Trajkovic, and I'll read the first three and the last four shorter

12 paragraphs.

13 This document subject to the report of engagement of reserve

14 formations for the need of the SAJ says this: "During the year 1998, the

15 number of the members of special anti-terrorist units of MUP of Republic

16 of Serbia significantly decreased because of the number of wounded and

17 because of the transfer of SAJ Novi Sad to the State Security Department.

18 "Because of these reasons, it was necessary to strengthen SAJ with

19 a certain number of reservists for the purpose of conducting combat

20 activities against Siptar terrorists.

21 "With agreement of the head of the Public Security Department and

22 the headquarters of MUP in Pristina, 128 members of the reserve formations

23 were engaged, who were put on the list of the reserve formations of SAJ.

24 These members were led by Medic Slobodan, with whom the members of SAJ had

25 been fulfilling certain tasks on the territory of Slavonija, Baranja, and

1 Western Srem.

2 "The reservists were activated on the 25th of March, 1999. They

3 were given the uniforms of PJP and the formation long arms from the Police

4 Directorate of MUP. They were accommodated in the hotel in Prolom Banja

5 where they were supported by SUP Prokuplje. The reservists did not leave

6 the premises of their accommodation until 28 March 1999."

7 The photocopy we have received, and we can see it in the original,

8 would appear then to have a part of a sentence missing. I needn't read

9 the long sentence. If the Court would turn to -- the long paragraph --

10 the second sheet, and if you please would turn to the fifth short

11 paragraph from the end, which is still on the first page, I pick it up in

12 this way: "Upon his return from Podujevo, the reserve formations remained

13 there until 8th of April when they were sent back to Novi Sad, i.e., to

14 Sremska Mitrovica.

15 "Apart from the engagement on the 28th of March 1999, these

16 members of the reserve formations were not engaged. They remained in the

17 hotel in Prolom Banja and none of them left the accommodation premises,

18 nor entered the territory of Kosovo.

19 "During their stay in Prolom Banja, Colonel-General Pavkovic

20 visited, met with the members of the reserve formations, and talked to

21 Slobodan Medic.

22 "Again, the need arose for the activating reserve formations, and

23 on the proposal of Zivko Trajkovic, the commander of SAJ, and with the

24 agreement of the headquarters in Pristina and the head of the department,

25 108 members of the reserve formations, led by Medic Slobodan, were

1 re-engaged.

2 "The members of the reserve formations came on the 26th of April,

3 1999, in the area of accommodation of SAJ in Kosovo Polje and immediately

4 got involved in search of the territory and in the fight against the

5 terrorists in the sector Jezero Mount, under the SAJ command and together

6 with other active members of region. Their engagement lasted until the

7 9th of May, 1500 hours, when they returned to their places of living.

8 They are still included in the list of reserve formations and worked

9 exclusively under the command of the SAJ."

10 That, then, from the commander.

11 This document makes it absolutely clear, as Mrgud told us in

12 evidence and as I suggested to you yesterday, that they were engaged, they

13 were withdrawn after the incident involving Cvjetan, and they were

14 re-engaged, all under the SAJ. Do you challenge that?

15 A. Of course I challenged that all day yesterday because I had no

16 information whatsoever about the facts presented in this text. Now I see

17 that these two documents were signed by people, two people whom I know

18 personally, and I do not doubt that they presented correct facts here.

19 The signatories of these two documents probably don't know,

20 however, that a unit as such cannot be transferred into the reserve force.

21 What the law envisages is that an individual can be accepted into the

22 reserve force according to the procedure prescribed by law.

23 Another pertinent fact is that if a decision had been made at all

24 to admit a whole unit, which of course was not envisaged by the law, that

25 decision could not have been made by the head of department. That would

1 have had to be a decision of the minister, and that is something we don't

2 see here. And that is my opinion, of course, not an assertion.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stevanovic, is that perhaps not a reason why in

4 the third paragraph of that last letter mention is made of 128 members of

5 the reserve formations being engaged, and then in the last -- second last

6 paragraph 108 members of the reserve formations were re-engaged, so that

7 the individuals were engaged, in accordance with the law to satisfy the

8 provision that you are talking about?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, engagement on a

10 particular task is one thing, but the previous question was recruiting the

11 reserve force to belong to the police force. Recruiting reservists in 20

12 police unit is stipulated by law, and it's done at a lower-level unit,

13 whereas the engagement of a reserve force for a particular assignment,

14 mobilisation, conditionally speaking, is really up to the head of the

15 actual service.

16 The text or, rather, the first part of the quotation you referred

17 to, the formulation is right. Members of the reserve force. It doesn't

18 say the reserve unit of the police or a reserve unit of the police.

19 MR. NICE: Your Honours, in view of the amount of time I've

20 already taken, I'm not going to discuss this matter more with this witness

21 but there is one point I want to put to him, and only one.

22 Q. You understand, Mr. Stevanovic, that I don't accept that -- I'm

23 suggesting to you that you have complete knowledge of all these things at

24 the time. And if we look at this last document, we see that reservists

25 were given uniforms of the PJP.

1 You may not have been in charge of the SAJ, but you were indeed

2 the commander of the PJP at the time, weren't you?

3 A. I was not commander of the PJP at that time. I said that several

4 times. Indeed it can be seen that they received PJP uniforms. However,

5 PJP uniforms are a technical issue. Of course you can see that the police

6 administration handed this out, but I was assistant minister whose line of

7 work included the police, but in spite of all of these facts, I assert

8 that I'm not aware of any of these facts highlighted here except for those

9 that I referred to yesterday, namely that I knew that they carried out a

10 crime, that they were returned the very instant and that a criminal report

11 was filed, and I knew that later they were arrested or, rather, detained

12 and brought before the relevant judicial organs. Those were the facts

13 that I was aware of. As for the other facts contained in this document, I

14 really was not aware of them.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Again, Mr. Stevanovic, just so that I'm left in no

16 doubt about this, the PJP fell somewhere under your responsibility; is

17 that correct?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The PJP was an independent, ad hoc

19 unit, or, rather, in the plural, several units, within the public security

20 sector. It was the police administration that carried out administrative

21 work for the PJP, and among other things, I was in charge of the police

22 administration as assistant minister.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: And does the same arrangement or did the same

24 arrangement apply in relation to the SAJ?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. The SAJ was not under my

1 jurisdiction. It was not linked to the police administration. They were

2 a permanent standing unit within the public security sector.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: And yet it does appear from these documents that

4 they fell within the province of the responsibility of Djordjevic, who was

5 or is described, I think, here, as the head of the public security

6 department of the police.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right. That's correct.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

9 JUDGE KWON: However, the date and the context under which this

10 letter is written is not clear upon its face, and usually a commander will

11 send this kind of letter or report to the minister and it will be copied

12 to assistant minister. So if you could tell how or why it was addressed

13 to the assistant minister. Was it because he was head of the public

14 sector?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely due to that fact, that

16 this specific assistant minister is at the same time the head of the

17 sector, the public security sector. However, that does not mean that the

18 same letter was not sent to the minister, although I'm not sure about

19 that, of course. I can only assume that.

20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

21 MR. NICE:

22 Q. Were you aware at the time --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Nice, please.

24 MR. NICE:

25 Q. Were you aware at the time of the Cvjetan court proceedings of

1 Djordjevic preparing materials to forward to the court?

2 A. No.

3 Q. You know that you're described as being in charge -- for example,

4 in something like "Under Orders" you're described as being the officer in

5 command of the regular police throughout Kosovo at the time. Is that an

6 incorrect description of your real role?

7 A. That is not a correct description of my real role. I already

8 referred to my real role, and I wish I knew whose description this was.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Again, for the sake of clarification, could you

10 remind me of your relationship at the time, that's 1999 I think is the

11 crucial part here, the first half of 1999, your relationship in the

12 hierarchy with Djordjevic. I understood you to be in equivalent

13 positions.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct. Both of us

15 were assistant ministers. And at the time, we were directly responsible

16 to the minister. Of course he had broader responsibility than I did

17 because he was in charge of the entire public security sector as head of

18 the public security sector.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: So when Djordjevic is described by Trajkovic as the

20 head of the public security department -- no. He's not so described, is

21 he? The impression --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He should say that. We can see from

23 the heading that this was sent to the assistant minister, head of the

24 public security sector. That's what it says in the address of this

25 document.

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1 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that not a description that can also be given to

2 you?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No. I was not head of the

4 sector. I was one of the three assistant ministers who were not heads of

5 sectors. There is only one single head of the public security sector.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

7 MR. NICE:

8 Q. Who do you say was in charge of the public security in Kosovo in

9 the first half of 1999?

10 A. Well, I've already explained that the system of command and

11 control in the police in Kosovo and Metohija was that of peacetime, with

12 the exception of the fact that the MUP staff was established to combat

13 terrorism. And also, units were seconded to help the units in Kosovo.

14 Q. Please, just help me if you can. If you can't, we'll move on to

15 my last question on another topic.

16 Which person was in charge of the public security police in Kosovo

17 in the first half of 1999?

18 A. There is not a person who had separate powers in terms of the

19 functioning of the police in Kosovo. It's the minister. It's the head of

20 the secretariat -- the heads of secretariats and the head of the sector,

21 and parallel to that, the head of the staff.

22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... you were in charge, and your

23 suggestion that you didn't know who Medic was and you didn't know about

24 this investigation is, I would suggest, absolutely ridiculous. That's my

25 suggestion to you.

1 MR. NICE: Mr. Nort.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is not correct, Mr. Prosecutor,

3 rest assured, and the investigation will prove that. The investigation in

4 Belgrade is very intensive, and you will be assured that that will be

5 proven and it will be proven that I have spoken the truth.

6 MR. NICE: Your Honours, we will, of course, pursue by our request

7 for assistance these documents and anything else associated with them

8 given the somewhat central issue on which they now touch -- which they now

9 touch.

10 My last outstanding issue that I meant to raise relates to the

11 diary at page 106. It's a very small point. The -- not a small point.

12 It may be an important point but it's a point that I must put to this

13 witness. If the Court -- it's Exhibit 404. The witness has the original

14 before him. The Court will probably remember the entry, it's the "no

15 corpse, no crime" entry where the word at the top -- Exhibit 440, I'm

16 sorry if I gave the wrong number, which has at the top the words

17 "president." The witness told us that this was something that happened

18 in the presence of one president who, he offered, either this accused or

19 Milutinovic. 440, page 106. The no corpse, no crime meeting, the word

20 "president" at the top, the witness's evidence that it was either this

21 accused or Milutinovic.

22 JUDGE KWON: He said possibly this accused.

23 MR. NICE: Possibly.

24 Q. And I must make it quite clear to you, Mr. Stevanovic, the

25 following: This document and your evidence reveals beyond any doubt, in

1 my suggestion to you, that it was this accused at whose meeting you took

2 these notes, and that you know that. What's your answer to that?

3 A. I have already answered that that is what most probably happened.

4 I cannot claim with 100 per cent certainty now who the president, without

5 any name or surname, is, but I said that it is most probably the president

6 of the FRY, Mr. Slobodan Milosevic.

7 Q. You have, I'm going to suggest to you, throughout your testimony

8 said everything you possibly can to help this accused and if there was

9 anyway you could respectably urge that this was another president --

10 A. That's not correct.

11 Q. Very well. I've made my point. I needn't repeat it. Thank you.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

13 MR. NICE: Unless there is answers to the questions that the

14 witness took away with him about the documents, that's all I have to ask

15 him. If he comes back with answers to those it might be that I would seek

16 leave to ask him questions, but that's all.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: May I just inquire, Mr. Stevanovic, have you

18 received any answers yet?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have received unofficial answers

20 from the persons that I communicated with. These answers or, rather, this

21 verification, which has not been completed yet, confirms what I said, that

22 11 persons from three documents were never employed by the Ministry of the

23 Interior.

24 As for an official answer, I have been instructed to address the

25 National Committee for Cooperation with the Tribunal and the legally

1 prescribed procedure. Obviously I overestimated my possibilities, and I

2 overlooked the legal procedure envisaged by law, and for that I apologise

3 to the Court. But it has been established that those persons were never

4 employed by the Ministry of the Interior. I have unofficial corroboration

5 of that.

6 When I return, as any citizen, I will apply to receive such an

7 answer officially. That is what my knowledge is for the time being,

8 unofficially. Of course, the Prosecution can do that as well.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: By what means did you receive the answers?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I telephoned some people at

11 lower levels, and I know that they follow people, members of units and so

12 on. No one could confirm to me that these persons were ever members of

13 the Ministry of the Interior. Of course, this check was not complete, but

14 I expect that through official procedure this can be confirmed officially

15 as well.

16 The newspapers are here. I shall submit them to the Registry and

17 you will see for yourselves that what I said yesterday at the outset of

18 the session was true.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. We'll return to that if necessary.

20 Mr. Milosevic to re-examine, and you must endeavour,

21 Mr. Milosevic, not to ask leading questions. Questions beginning with "Is

22 it clear that..." "Is it logical that..." and so on, unless ingeniously

23 phrased, are bound to be leading questions.

24 Re-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Stevanovic, yesterday, let's first deal with

1 this, Mr. Nice put a few questions to you in relation to Racak.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Yesterday -- or, rather, in the exhibits there are a great many

4 documents that have to deal with Racak.

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. Not only now when you were preparing for this testimony, when

7 these documents were compiled, but even at the time when you were in

8 Kosovo and Metohija or in Belgrade, as assistant minister and as a general

9 of the police, did you have occasion to familiarise yourself with a large

10 number of these documents?

11 A. I did familiarise myself with many documents, especially the

12 circumstances involved in these events that were compiled by a particular

13 working group. I'm not sure that I actually saw every operative

14 information, Official Note, and the like.

15 Q. All right, General. No one expects you --

16 A. Of course.

17 Q. -- to be familiar with each and every detail of each and every

18 particular case. But now when you had a compilation of these documents

19 before you - as you know, they are contained in several of these big

20 binders - did you have occasion to look through all of them?

21 A. I looked at all the documents. Everything I read in the documents

22 fits into what I know from before about Racak.

23 Q. General, all these documents that are contained here in the

24 binders that have to do with Racak, are they official documents of the

25 police and of the judicial organs or, rather, official documents related

1 to what happened in Racak?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. There is no secondhand information there or rumour. These are

4 only official documents that were presented?

5 A. That's right. Official police and court documents. There are no

6 newspaper articles, opinions of various persons, et cetera.

7 Q. All right. General, from these documents that we presented here

8 in part, was it quite certain that in Racak there was a KLA unit?

9 A. That was beyond dispute.

10 Q. From the documents and notes and collected information contained

11 in these documents before the 15th of January, 1999, when there was a

12 clash between the police and terrorists in Racak, was it established that

13 in Racak there was a KLA unit?

14 A. That was --

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you're falling into error already

16 and on an issue that is controversial. You can't lead on that. "Was it

17 established in Racak that there was a KLA unit?"

18 MR. NICE: For this passage of the evidence, I'd urge the Court to

19 have in mind, in ruling on the accused's questions, the level of ignorance

20 of the documents that it was established lay in the witness yesterday. He

21 had -- he was given many opportunities to identify documents on particular

22 topics and he declined every invitation.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: So, Mr. Milosevic, reformulate or move on to

24 another issue.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I asked the witness

1 quite unequivocally whether he looked through all the documents that are

2 here, and there are a great many of them. The witness cannot be expected

3 to know them all by heart. I asked him whether he reviewed all the

4 documents that were presented here in relation to Racak, and his answer

5 was affirmative. I assume that there is nothing leading about that

6 question.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but you have said in the last question, "Was

8 it established in Racak that there was a KLA unit," and that is certainly

9 leading.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Robinson. I shall

11 rephrase that.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. During the examination-in-chief, General, did we have on the table

14 and did you see documents that were created before the event in Racak and

15 that refer to a terrorist group in Racak?

16 A. Of course I saw these documents. I can also add that I had

17 knowledge and information about that, that the group of Racak is

18 constantly threatening the Stimlje-Dulje road on the road between Pristina

19 and Prizren and the road to Urosevac. The key problem was on this

20 regional road between Pristina-Prizren, and the Crnoljevo pass was under

21 threat all the time, and there were a lot of casualties among the police

22 and the army. All estimates showed that the group came from Racak and

23 from surrounding villages whose names I cannot recall now.

24 Q. General, did we have a document here, a press release of the

25 Ministry of the Interior from that particular day, the 15th of January?

1 Do you remember that?

2 A. I do remember that. There was a press release.

3 Q. What did it say?

4 A. If I remember correctly, it said that an anti-terrorist action was

5 carried out in connection with the activity of that group, and the

6 consequences of the activity of that group that were reflected in at least

7 one killed policeman just before that event. I think it was the 10th of

8 January, that that was the date referred to.

9 Q. Did it say anything about the Verification Mission of the OSCE in

10 that press release of the 15th?

11 A. It said that as regards that police activity, the Verification

12 Mission was informed or they were present, I'm not quite sure now. I

13 remember that the picture I saw was there too.

14 Q. Now, you say that you also remember the images showing?

15 A. The presence of the verifiers on the spot.

16 Q. On the spot in Racak. Mr. Nice put some questions to you that had

17 to do with your knowledge in this regard, that these were terrorists. Did

18 you have an opportunity to listen to the testimony of their commander,

19 Sukri Buja, who testified here?

20 A. I think I remember, but I do not recall any details. I remember

21 that I think he said that he opened fire, that gunfire was opened from a

22 heavy machine-gun.

23 Q. Precisely. Your memory serves you well. Buja Sukri also

24 confirmed that fire was opened at the police, from a heavy machine-gun at

25 that.

1 In the documents from the on-site investigation, could you see

2 that a great many trenches were dug and also that there were other things

3 done that indicated that there had been fighting there?

4 A. From the images at the time of the on-site investigation, it was

5 quite clear --

6 MR. NICE: As the Court will understand, I'm only two happy for

7 the accused to use as much time as he can given the percentage that I have

8 to achieve, but does this arise in any way from cross-examination? And if

9 it doesn't, should it be permitted or should it be stopped? It's a matter

10 for the Chamber.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, if we are going to look at it

15 that way, then it's quite clear that an enormous number of questions put

16 by Mr. Nice does not arise from the examination-in-chief at all, and yet

17 you did not interrupt him. In addition to that, you could have noticed

18 that Mr. Nice often made statements, and you never interrupted him. I

19 don't know why you make this kind of selection and why you have a

20 completely different attitude to the questions that I'm putting.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I reject that suggestion of any

22 kind of selection on the part of the Trial Chamber. The Trial Chamber has

23 dealt with you fairly.

24 I'm going to allow you to put the question at this time. Go

25 ahead.

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. So --

3 A. Well, I can just continue with my answer. From the pictures, you

4 could see that in the area around Racak and surrounding hills that there

5 were a lot of -- there was a lot of fortification that had been prepared

6 by KLA members, and at the on-site investigation we could see that the

7 on-site investigation team and the policemen providing security were shot

8 at. They opened fire. That's what I saw on the picture.

9 Q. Yesterday, Mr. Nice showed you some photographs. Do you have any

10 idea who took those photographs?

11 A. No. And that's why I asked the Prosecutor, and if I understood

12 him correctly, he said that it was international organisations. Perhaps

13 I'm not remembering it correctly.

14 Q. All right. Fine. Now, do you know when the photographs were

15 taken?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Do you know whether a single photograph of those photographs was

18 taken on the day the event occurred or whether they were taken later on?

19 A. No, I don't know anything about that, when the photographs were

20 taken or anything like that, or who took them, for that matter.

21 Q. And do you know whether anybody was able to take photographs on

22 the day the event occurred?

23 A. Well, all I know is that it was a day when the police, after the

24 operation, did not have control over the area, and all I can do is to

25 assume who could have taken those photographs, given the period of time,

1 that is to say after the operation started up until the police was

2 withdrawn from the region of Racak.

3 Q. All right. Fine. Now, in the documents that were presented here,

4 is there evidence and proof of the fact that a paraffin glove test was

5 taken and that orders were issued for the paraffin glove test to be taken

6 which was supposed to show whether anybody shot --

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you cannot ask the question in

8 that way, "Is there evidence and proof that a paraffin glove test was

9 taken?" I mean, that is virtually putting the answer into the witness's

10 mouth.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it's a generally known fact,

12 Mr. Robinson, and Mr. Nice tried once again to explain something along the

13 lines of the fact that civilians were killed there, and even the sparrows

14 know today that it was a clash between the KLA and the police.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, did you cross-examine on the paraffin

16 glove test?

17 MR. NICE: Not at all.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm not allowing that. It doesn't arise. Move

19 on to another question.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, in the cross-examination,

21 Mr. Robinson, he asked the witness whether --

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: I've stopped you. I've already ruled. Move on

23 to another question.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Did you hear the testimony of Adam Bo, the German journalist who

2 investigated how a boy was killed?

3 A. I think I did, yes. I think so. And if I remember correctly,

4 there was a break in some sort of hedge and something along those lines.

5 Q. Well, yes, that is what it was about, but did his testimony

6 indicate that there was fighting there or that there was killing of

7 civilians?

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I would hate to think that you are

9 being deliberately mischievous and in breach of the Rules of the Court,

10 because if you are, the Trial Chamber will take certain steps. If you

11 cannot conduct the re-examination in conformity with the Rules of the

12 Court, in particular with relation to leading questions, the

13 re-examination will be terminated, and I must make that very clear,

14 because practically every question you're asking is in breach of the

15 Rules. The witness must give his testimony, give his evidence unaided,

16 unaided by you, and that's the purpose of the rule prohibiting leading

17 questions in examination-in-chief and in re-examination.

18 MR. NICE: Your Honour, can I add one point? Reassuring though it

19 is to hear how good the witness's recollection is of the evidence he's

20 reviewed, he's not here to comment on evidence that others have given

21 earlier, and that's one of the various things the witness is trying to do.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. General, as a high-ranking officer of the police force who, as you

25 said a moment ago yourself, had at his disposal these documents here

1 having to do with Racak, is the conclusion that you draw from all the

2 material facts of what you learnt from the documents --

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm stopping that. "Is the conclusion you

4 draw..." that is going to end up as a leading question. You may ask him

5 what is the conclusion that he draws, but you're not to tell him the

6 conclusion. Do you understand?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that's just what I was going

8 to do.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: That was not indicated by the way you formulated

10 the question at all, Mr. Milosevic. You're being very insincere.

11 Proceed.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, take a look at how I started

13 asking the questions in Serbian and then you'll see whether I'm sincere or

14 not.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Now, General, tell me, in view of the fact that you were at a

17 high-ranking position in MUP and you looked at all this information and

18 went through it, what conclusion did you draw about the events in Racak,

19 about that particular event on the 15th of January, 1999, in Racak?

20 A. Well, the conclusion can be reduced to several theses. In Racak,

21 the police was attacked by terrorists while they were doing -- going about

22 their lawful duty.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I interrupt there, and can you tell me, what is

24 the basis for that statement?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The basis for that statement is all

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1 the information that I have, both orally immediately after the event,

2 and --

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you have a statement from any police officer to

4 the effect that that's what happened?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not have a statement by a

6 policeman, but I do have a report about the entire event, and it is to be

7 found in the documents that are to be found here.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Did the police, General, have any knowledge at all about the

12 killing of civilians in Racak?

13 A. No, not in that operation itself, but it did have knowledge about

14 killings, including civilians and, of course, policemen and soldiers on

15 the roads which are very close to Racak.

16 Q. General, had the police killed anybody there, would proceedings be

17 taken as provided for by the laws and provisions of our country?

18 A. Of course.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, I don't understand that. I thought the

20 police killed 40 people. So what proceedings were taken by the laws and

21 provisions of your country to investigate that?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, let me say there's a

23 terminological programme [as interpreted]. The police did not kill. If

24 you use the word "kill," it means kill with intent, premeditated killing,

25 whereas the police applied force to which it has right to, and the

1 consequence of that force being applied was the death of these

2 individuals.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: That is not my understanding of the word "kill" in

4 English. It may be a different situation in B/C/S, but kill is kill. You

5 can kill someone accidentally, you can kill them deliberately, you can

6 kill them negligently, you can kill them in all sorts of ways, but killing

7 means destroying life in English. Is it different in B/C/S?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Serbian, and as I understand it,

9 they are different things. Somebody can lose his life as the consequence

10 of a killing, or it can be the result of the legitimate use of force. So

11 in Serbian there are some differences. I apologise if there are not in

12 English. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough.

13 And let me add with -- in a response to your question, I read a

14 report which was compiled by a working group which had the task of

15 investigating the circumstances surrounding the event and to draw

16 conclusions from that. I have said, I think on two occasions, that I

17 assume that there are statements by leaders and individuals who took part

18 in that operation, however, I do not have them here.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Do we have the working group report here?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think we quoted it in answer to

21 one of the questions that was asked. We quoted the conclusions from a

22 report by that particular group, I believe.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Working group, a working group. All right.

24 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. General, in view of the fact that you are an educated man in your

3 profession, do you know that casualties in war conflicts between the armed

4 formations of two sides is qualified as killing or the result of a war

5 conflict?

6 A. Well, that was the sense of my response to the Judge a moment ago.

7 In our language, killing is either within intent or chance, and -- and

8 manslaughter. And of course the consequences of war effects are not

9 considered to be killings when loss of life is incurred in wartime.

10 Q. Let us make an assumption. I don't want to ask a leading

11 question. The conflict between a police unit and a terrorist group, for

12 instance, from which -- which leads to death, death of a number of

13 individuals, can it be considered, according to any provisions or

14 anything, as killing?

15 A. It can as an excess if there was intentional killing of anybody

16 outside the provisions provided for by law governing the use of firearms,

17 but the killing of terrorists in a clash between police and terrorists in

18 principle cannot be considered as murder.

19 Q. All right. We won't deal with this question of Racak any more

20 except for one more. Let me ask one more question.

21 Does a single document which is provided in these two binders

22 about Racak, are they documents which did not emanate from the regular

23 work of the Ministry of the Interior or the Judiciary?

24 A. I have not seen any other document, any document outside those two

25 categories of documents that you just mentioned.

1 Q. Very well, General. Now let's deal with your diary.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Milosevic, which of the tabs is the working

3 group report?

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Bonomy, I'll try and find it

5 during the break. There are many exhibits, but I can't tell you just off

6 the top of my head now, and I'll ask one of my associates to look through

7 the documents and try and come up with that and I'll hand it over to you

8 after the break.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. General, we're now going to deal with your diary. Mr. Nice calls

12 this a diary. Have you got it in front of you?

13 A. Unfortunately, no, I do not. I haven't got it among my documents.

14 Q. Well, you ought to have it.

15 A. I haven't managed to find it. Which tab is it?

16 Q. It's tab 17 -- or, rather, binder 17, tab 440.

17 A. Yes, I have it now.

18 Q. Have you found it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Mr. Nice says that this is some sort of diary of yours. Is it a

21 diary or an agenda?

22 A. Well, it's not a diary. It's an agenda, a notebook in which I

23 noted down certain theses, some of my own thoughts, some of other people's

24 thoughts. There are, of course, some personal notes as well, quite apart

25 from my job.

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18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are we in private session?

19 JUDGE KWON: No, we are in public session.

20 MR. NICE: I'm sorry about that. May the passage be redacted from

21 public display, going right back to the beginning of that question.

22 [Private session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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4 [Open session]

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We're ready to get the tab numbers now,

6 Mr. Milosevic.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In connection with Racak, Mr. Bonomy

8 asked for tab numbers related to the activities of the police.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, the working group report. I don't want to be

10 involved in a wild goose chase.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, all right.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's very specific.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is a set of documents that begins

14 with tab 395, which contains a plan of implementation of operative and

15 tactical measures and investigative steps regarding the incident in Racak

16 village, and it says on the last page the working group of the MUP, and

17 three MUP officials --

18 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ...

19 JUDGE KWON: Binder 9.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, continue, Mr. Milosevic.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. General, have you found tab 395?

23 A. Yes, I have.

24 Q. Does this tab contain the plan for the implementation of operative

25 and tactical measures and investigative steps drafted by the working

1 group?

2 A. Yes. That is the plan that we analysed to some extent.

3 Q. Very well. Did this working group consist of high-ranking police

4 officials?

5 A. Yes. We can see that from their signatures and names at the end

6 of the document.

7 Q. From the signatures, names, ranks, and titles, the positions they

8 occupied.

9 According to what you know, was this plan implemented, and is it

10 the case that in these tabs 395, 396, 397 we find a clarification of the

11 circumstances under which the crime of terrorism was perpetrated in Racak,

12 Stimlje municipality?

13 A. Yes. That is tab 396.

14 Q. The chronology follows in tab 397. Is this an entire set of

15 documents related to the event?

16 A. Yes. These are the documents of this working group, as far as I

17 know.

18 Q. Did these documents arise from a careful review of all the facts

19 related to the event?

20 A. Well, the high level of this working group should be a

21 confirmation of very careful, professional and meticulous work in studying

22 this incident.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Is 397 signed by anyone?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is precisely what I noticed

25 just now. It seems the last page of the document is missing. This is the

1 document I meant when in response to previous questions I mentioned a

2 report of the working group.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: What about 396? Is it complete?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot claim one way or another,

5 but it seems that it, too, is incomplete.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: 396 ends with the words "The following plan is

7 hereby adopted," and then nothing follows.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct. That's

9 correct. And from that I conclude that it is incomplete.

10 JUDGE KWON: Should the plan be tab 395?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The plan is 395, and that one

12 should be complete. It has the last page, and it has signatures, at least

13 in my copy.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: And who are the signatories?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in my copy, at the end it says

16 MUP working group, head of department of criminal investigation police,

17 Major General Dragan Ilic; and then head of department in the public

18 security sector, Mioljub Nikolic; and head of the forensic and technical

19 centre, Vladimir Aleksic. And you can see copies of their signatures.

20 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We have the translation.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, we were in private session. Had

23 you finished your questioning for the private session? If not -- if you

24 have, then we can remain in public session.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I think we can remain in

1 public session. We will now go back to this agenda of General Stevanovic.

2 However, before I do that, I wish to draw your attention again to tab 400,

3 which follows these 5, 6, and 7, and it contains the press release by the

4 Ministry of the Interior on the 15th of January, 1999, saying that

5 measures were taken concerning Racak and that the Kosovo Verification

6 Mission of the OSCE was informed about the measures. This is dated the

7 15th of January, 1999. It doesn't say yet what had happened. It just

8 says that measures were taken and notified to the KVM. It indicates that

9 the measures taken were related to the terrorist group that was active

10 there and that they were notified.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Move on to your next area of

12 re-examination.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. General, this agenda of yours, does it represent your notes which

15 you could have in any case made available to anyone who was interested in

16 events and activities related to your work from that time?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Let me not ask only general questions. I'll ask only one: Do

19 these notes contain anything that in your opinion is not consistent with

20 our regulations, that in any way casts doubt on the regularity of

21 policework and the state authorities in Kosovo?

22 A. I am certain that there is nothing of the kind.

23 Q. Very well. We will now go through some of these quotations. I

24 have no time to deal with the entire agenda, but let us just gain a

25 general picture from these notes of yours.

1 Please turn the page ending with numbers 380. That's the ERN

2 number. These are the only numbers I think that are in sequence.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues]... proceed.

4 JUDGE KWON: Give us the English number, please.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, the English number.

6 JUDGE KWON: Or the date.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, unfortunately -- let me just

8 see.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may assist.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 8th February, 1999. Have you found

11 this ERN number 0172380? On this page there is a date. That's the 8th

12 February, 1999.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. It says in the first, second, third -- eighth line, eighth line,

16 "Repair" or "improve the national -- the ethnic structure of the police

17 force in Kosovo." That's your handwriting; would you read it.

18 A. When you -- you mean where it says "reserve force"?

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: What's the first -- I see. 22?

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I didn't understand. What are you

21 asking me?

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see "Correct the multi-ethnic composition of

23 the police in --" et cetera. Is that what you're referring to?

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This sentence in the original says:

1 "Correct, or rectify, the multi-ethnic composition of the police in NP -"

2 it's probably Novi Pazar - "Kosovo and Metohija and SU," and that

3 certainly means Subotica.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Very well. What is the point of this note which you used as your

6 own reminder?

7 A. We had, conditionally speaking, a certain problem with an

8 unfavourable ethnic composition of the police force in Kosovo and

9 Metohija, in the SUP of Novi Pazar, and in the SUP of Subotica, so our

10 objective was to improve the ethnic composition of the police force in the

11 sense of including more Albanians, Muslims, and Hungarians.

12 Q. So that is a commitment of your force.

13 A. Yes. The strategic commitment of the MUP.

14 Q. Very well. Turn the next page, the 9th February, 1999. It says

15 "The federal government."

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. It says "Session for the Commission of Cooperation with the OSCE."

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And what does it relate to? It says: "Racak corpses." What was

20 it about?

21 A. Well, that is obviously a matter for that session. I probably

22 attended it and they discussed Racak and the incidents in Racak, but I

23 could not assert with any certainty in more specific terms what the

24 subject of discussion was. It was the 9th of February. It was probably

25 believed even then that the issue of Racak was topical.

1 Q. But this was a session of the Commission for Cooperation with the

2 OSCE?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. On the next page on the same sheet, without any date but it is

5 typed as the next page, it says: "Focus on." Will you read this, the

6 writing that follows. You will find it more easily, it's your

7 handwriting.

8 A. It says: "Focus on: Protection of roads, facilities of

9 special importance, settlements and facilities where Serbs gather."

10 Second item: "Detection and arrest of perpetrators of terrorist

11 acts."

12 Q. Stop there, please. Was it the general task of the police, as you

13 say here, to detect and deprive of freedom perpetrators of terrorist acts,

14 or to kill them?

15 A. Well, this note here confirms what I repeated several times

16 already: Not killing but detecting and depriving of freedom perpetrators

17 of terrorist acts. That's what is written here.

18 Q. What are these pivotal tasks?

19 A. Planning intervention directed at certain hotbeds, including

20 preparations for building obstacles on axes of entry of the military

21 component, probably ground component, on the ground.

22 Q. What was meant here was probably the possibility of aggression by

23 ground forces.

24 A. Probably. And the last bullet is "Implementation of all measures

25 related to the OSCE," and it is slightly harder to make out what follows

1 in the brackets.

2 Q. All right. Further on, when it says "Characteristics of terrorist

3 activity."

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. "Presence in certain parts of the territory and a fully tolerant

6 attitude of the OSCE representatives."

7 A. Yes, that's what it says. It says: "Characteristics of terrorist

8 activity are still: Additional organisation, equipping and arming." The

9 second one is: "Presence in certain parts of the territory, with a fully

10 tolerant attitude," probably "of representatives of the OSCE."

11 Q. All right. And then "Other characteristics" you mention. More

12 frequent acts of terrorism?

13 A. Yes, and I say in inhabited areas.

14 Q. "Increased number of murders of members of the Albanian national

15 community."

16 A. Yes. And then further on it speaks of the situation in police

17 units.

18 Q. Does it say "Strength stands at 10.021"?

19 A. Yes, that's right. That's in line with the Clark-Naumann

20 Agreement in Belgrade or, rather, Djordjevic-Byrnes.

21 Q. When you move on to the next page, is the first sentence, "All

22 obligations towards OSCE should be carried out"?

23 A. Yes. That's what's written here.

24 Q. Does it say here: "In Paris the representatives of the Kosovo

25 Albanians" -- I can't read this word -- "and in our -" something illegible

1 - "are terrorists."

2 A. Yes, here it says in Paris there are representatives of the Kosovo

3 Albanians, and the rest, it's hard for me to read it. "Representatives of

4 Kosovo Albanians" is under quotation marks, which would mean that they're

5 terrorists or something like that. I'm not sure really.

6 Q. And then it says: "The army of Yugoslavia has to have deterrence

7 activities."

8 A. Yes. That is the usual primary objective when there is a threat

9 of aggression.

10 Q. Was that all in line with the measures that were taken then?

11 A. Absolutely.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Was that a record of things said by someone else?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Possibly, because in the heading it

14 says "Probably Minic," or "Milic." I don't know who Milic could be,

15 though.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Where it says "All obligations towards the OSCE should be carried

18 out"?

19 A. Yes. Before that it probably says "Minic."

20 Q. All right.

21 JUDGE KWON: That item starts with the -- a note, you said,

22 "Chaired by M. Milic." Second line from "federal government." Do you

23 note it? February 9, it says "Federal government. Session of the

24 Commission for Cooperation with the OSCE, chaired by M. Milic."

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That's incorrect. It's

1 probably Milomir Minic, because I do not know of a Milic. I simply don't

2 know a person with that surname. Perhaps I have forgotten this very

3 moment. But, of course it doesn't mean that all of the notes are his.

4 These notes on the previous page are quite certainly mine.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. General, could you please move on ahead to 384, please, 384. It

7 says the 11th of February, 1999.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. There's a lot of text there. It's very dense. I don't want to

10 dwell on it very long. It would require a lot of time, though. On the

11 right-hand side --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. -- it says: "Main attacks --"

14 THE INTERPRETER: "Main tasks," interpreter's correction.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. And then it says: "Protection of security of the republican

17 citizens."

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. "Combatting terrorism in Kosovo and Metohija is the topmost

20 security and political task." Is that what it says here?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What's the next: "In the field of SK." What is SK?

23 A. "Suzbijanje kriminaliteta," "crime control."

24 Q. All right. You can make any abbreviations you like, I'm just

25 asking you what that means. So it means in the area of crime control.

1 A. That's right.

2 Q. And what is KD?

3 A. Criminal offences. Probably combatting crime. Criminal offences

4 jeopardising the health, property, and lives of citizens. That's the

5 first one. Should I read on?

6 Q. Well, all right. It all pertains to curbing crime.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And what is the last one here? "Combatting crime, attitude

9 towards --"

10 A. "Injured parties." That was a very important thesis at that

11 moment, to devote more attention to injured parties in any criminal

12 offence.

13 Q. Further on it says: "In JRM." That is law and order?

14 A. Yes, public law and order.

15 Q. "Ensure normal life of the citizens and the normal functioning of

16 the institutions of the system."

17 And then it says: "In the field of traffic security, traffic

18 safety."

19 So are these normal, regular police tasks that were discussed?

20 What meeting is this from?

21 A. I think that this is from a meeting that I had at the SUP in

22 Jagodina on the 11th of February, 1999. This is a meeting I held with the

23 leaders of that municipal Secretariat of the Interior.

24 Q. All right.

25 A. This was my reminder for that meeting.

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1 Q. If you move one page ahead, you talk about improving efficiency in

2 work.

3 A. Improving the level of legality in work. I wish to draw your

4 attention to that, as well as the reputation of the service, conduct, and

5 appearance.

6 Q. One of these bullets says, in the middle of the page: "It is not

7 important what we think about ourselves."

8 A. "We must always take care about what citizens think of us. We

9 must always heed what citizens think of us."

10 I wanted to say that it's not important if we perceive ourselves

11 in a positive context. That doesn't matter. What matters is what

12 citizens think of us and how they perceive us. I wanted to draw your

13 attention to that domain pertaining to the relationship between the

14 citizens and the police.

15 Q. So this is your instructive meeting with --

16 A. The leaders of the SUP in Jagodina.

17 Q. All right. Please look further on. 387 is the page. From the

18 second --

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: What's the date for that one, Mr. Milosevic?

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It says here the 11th of February,

21 1500 hours. "Analysis of work."

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. And now on the right-hand side you say: "In spite of a series of

25 problems, there is an immeasurable contribution of the POL to the creation

1 of conditions for bringing about a lasting solution --"

2 A. "Peaceful solution."

3 Q. "-- peaceful solution to problems in Kosovo and Metohija." And

4 then you say: "Cannot be resolved by policework."

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So you say that problems should be resolved in a political manner.

7 Is that the point of what you're saying?

8 A. Yes. The policy of the ministry that we received through the

9 minister, and that is that the fundamental way of resolving the crisis in

10 Kosovo and Metohija is peacefully through democratic means, that the

11 problem cannot be resolved by policework, and that the police only has the

12 role of enabling the creation of minimal conditions for resolving problems

13 through peaceful means.

14 Q. All right. And then on the next page you talk about general

15 primary tasks. It pertains to the same meeting, I assume, because there's

16 no other date. There is nothing there. So it is general primary tasks;

17 improving the overall efficiency of work in all lines of work?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Improving the level of legality in work, the reputation of the

20 service, its appearance and conduct.

21 A. Yes. It's similar to the previously mentioned theses.

22 Q. Then "Upgrading the objective level of responsibility of top

23 personnel. Organise a systematic approach to all tasks. Looking to the

24 future."

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And then you talk about primary line tasks, "the protection of

2 security R and citizens." That's probably of the republic and citizens.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. "Suppressing terrorism in Kosovo and Metohija," and then the next

5 bullet is "Crime prevention."

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. "Public law and order." "Curbing or, rather, preventing criminal

8 offences which directly threaten the lives, health, and property of

9 citizens."

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And then "ensuring a normal life for the people and the

12 functioning of institutions."

13 A. The functioning of institutions.

14 Q. What does it say here at the end of this page? "The police must

15 through lawful work --" I cannot read this.

16 A. I can. "The police must through lawful work --" oh, I'm sorry.

17 "Returning inter-ethnic --" I can't read it.

18 Q. "Trust --"

19 A. "Trust and confidence," if I see it. So it's the role of the

20 police in restituting inter-ethnic tolerance and confidence. That's the

21 gist of it. I cannot read this but I remember those theses of mine.

22 Q. When you look at the next page, in the fourth bullet you can see:

23 "Through proper and lawful work the police should bring back inter-ethnic

24 confidence," something along those lines; right?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And on the left, it says: "Efficiency and lawfulness in every --"

2 I cannot read this. "In all work"?

3 A. I cannot find this. "Efficiency and lawfulness in work." But I

4 don't know what kind of work.

5 Q. And then there is page 390. It ends with 390. That is the 14th

6 of February at 11.00.

7 A. It should be a similar meeting but in Novi Pazar.

8 Q. No. It's the senior staff meeting of the minister.

9 A. Oh, yes. Yes, I can see it up here now. And then Novi Pazar is

10 up, further up.

11 Q. It only says: "An analysis of work was carried out." And then on

12 the 14th, it says: "The minister's collegium," or senior staff meeting.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And then the members of the minister's collegium are mentioned

15 here; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Is there anybody outside the MUP who was present?

18 A. No.

19 Q. No.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, what are you seeking to establish

21 by this evidence?

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'm seeking to establish,

23 because these are personal notes from the work notebook of General

24 Stevanovic, the extent to which these activities were really in line with

25 state policy, as he also wrote it down here, and in keeping with lawful

1 measures taken by the police in every way.

2 Although Mr. Nice wishes to prove something different, we are

3 going to deal with all of his quotations.

4 May I proceed?

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. You're still remaining with the diary?

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: You're still remaining with the diary, or the

8 agenda, as you call it?

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. This is an agenda. It's

10 quite obvious. I already asked the general.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. You say here the minister.

13 A. Yes. These are supposed to be his theses, what follows.

14 Q. All right. What does he say here? "We will do everything to

15 resolve Kosovo and Metohija in a peaceful way."

16 A. Yes. That's what it says in the third bullet here, third

17 asterisk.

18 Q. "However, if the country is attacked, we shall defend ourselves."

19 A. "Regardless of how strong the enemy may be."

20 Q. On the right-hand side, does it say this: "We have -- our

21 orientation is a multi-ethnic Kosovo"?

22 A. Yes. It says: "Our option is a multi-ethnic Kosovo."

23 Q. Option, right. But it doesn't matter, it means the same. "Our

24 option is a multi-ethnic Kosovo," it says. Right.

25 "We must avoid a civil war." Is that what it says as well?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. All right. Fine. And then something Mr. Nice went on to quote

3 from that same meeting where it is established that everything should be

4 solved peacefully, that our option was a multi-ethnic Kosovo, that we

5 should avoid a civil war, and then it says: "Our enemies Kandic,

6 Biserko," Mr. Nice quoted that. Why did that -- was that position

7 circulated at the time amongst you?

8 A. That position -- well, I've already explained. It was there

9 amongst us because of the fact that the organisation or organisations led

10 by these ladies, as I've already said, were one-sided and biased, in our

11 opinion, in presenting the facts, and we had quite different information

12 as to what the facts were.

13 Q. For example? Give us an example.

14 A. Well, it's difficult for me to remember specifically and quote an

15 example, but I assume that it was a question of certain accusations with

16 respect to some specific events, most probably, and in regard of that, the

17 results of the investigation were quite different from them from what we

18 found ourselves.

19 Q. So you're discussing that at the senior staff meeting, the

20 collegium of ministers? You were able to speak amongst yourselves

21 frankly, and you knew whether what you were talking about is correct or

22 not?

23 A. Yes, it was certainly correct, and I assume we can see that the

24 minister stated so loud and clear here.

25 Q. On the following page -- I can't find the ERN number, but when you

1 turn the page, 392 I believe is the ERN number. It's placed in different

2 positions on the page so I'm not able to follow, but that seems to be the

3 ERN number, 392 being the last digits. You say "For the minister's

4 collegium." That's the heading; is that right?

5 A. Yes. It would mean that this is an aide-memoire for the

6 collegium.

7 Q. So you were preparing for this senior staff meeting and writing

8 down the basic points, the basic theses that you wished to set out.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Fine. And then you say that in UP, that is to say the plan of

11 preparations for what should be taken with respect to a possible NATO

12 aggression.

13 A. And the UP means "Uprava policije," the police directorate.

14 Q. And then it says: "From airstrikes to the entry of ground

15 forces." Was it common knowledge that a ground aggression was expected?

16 A. Yes. That was common knowledge, and it was always taken into

17 account when making every assessment and contingency plans.

18 Q. Right. Thank you. Take a look at 394 now, please. ERN number

19 394, last digits.

20 There is no date here, however, it does say: "Crime also a

21 priority." Is that right? That's what the minister says. "Priority

22 Kosovo and Metohija. Crime also a priority." Is that what it says?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Very well.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's page 42.

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Now I'm going to skip over some of the following passages.

3 Now, please, take a look at page 402, 172402. On the right-hand

4 side, it says: "The police --" at the beginning of the page, on the

5 right-hand side, it says: "The police in Kosovo and Metohija are fully

6 observing the agreement on the OSCE mission." Is that what it says?

7 A. Yes. That's under number 1, the first point.

8 Q. What else does it say after that? Read it out, please.

9 A. The second thesis, it says: "In this regard, the police protects

10 the security of the mission members."

11 JUDGE KWON: Page 51.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And then the second point: "Informs

13 the mission about events and actions." Third point: "Enables the mission

14 to move around without hindrance." And the fourth point: "Allows the

15 mission to monitor the work of the police." Yes, that's right, "to

16 monitor the work of the police."

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. And then it goes on to say: "This does not, of course, mean that

19 in individual cases the police does not make mistakes," because it says,

20 "We're getting in general complaints."

21 A. Yes. "That, of course, does not mean that in individual cases the

22 police does not make mistakes."

23 Q. What does it say after that?

24 A. "Every case reported will be investigated in detail, the measures

25 prescribed by law taken, and will inform --" I'm not quite sure what it

1 says there. That's rather illegible. But anyway, I think it says "will

2 inform the person filing the complaint." That's what it should mean.

3 Q. And what does it say after that?

4 A. "The event must be reported," probably to the district police

5 station in the area. The time, place, description, the damage incurred,

6 persons present, and so on.

7 Q. All right. Fine. So that, then, is the end of February. Is that

8 all in keeping with what you described about how the police works?

9 A. Yes, that's right.

10 Q. All right. Fine. Now look at page 408, please. Just briefly, on

11 the left-hand side, it says here: "At a meeting of the ministers." It's

12 the 1st of March. "Meeting with minister. The situation is becoming more

13 complicated in Kosovo and Metohija. The opening of Kacanik, movement of

14 civilians, violent conflicts."

15 Does that, then, indicate the problems that are caused by the

16 activities of the KLA or some other problems?

17 A. Well, quite obviously it refers to KLA activities. The opening of

18 Kacanik. It cannot mean us opening Kacanik but that some problems are

19 opening up there.

20 Q. Of course. And what does this "movement of civilians" mean?

21 A. That the civilians are on the move, are moving. That's what that

22 means. And that's the beginning of March, if this date is correct.

23 Q. Very well. On page ERN 416, last digits, under number 1 on the

24 left-hand side, it says: "A number of meetings to -- in support of the

25 peaceful resolution of the Kosovo crisis --" I can't read the rest of

1 that.

2 A. It says, "without problems and against the aggression."

3 Q. All right. Fine. Now take a look at page 419, ERN number. What

4 does it say there? It's a meeting of the provisional Executive Council

5 in Kosovo and Metohija. It says: "The police in case of an aggression on

6 the Republic of Serbia will take the following steps." And what does it

7 say?

8 A. Yes, that's right. It says: "Intensify the struggle against

9 terrorist forces in all their -" perhaps strongholds or something like

10 that, a similar word.

11 Q. All right. Fine. And then it says: "Intensify the protection of

12 populated areas"; is that right?

13 A. Yes. And then it says -- the second point is to step up

14 protection of the main roads.

15 Q. So we're talking about stepping up protection of inhabited

16 populated areas as being one of the police tasks; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Well, we're taking this one by one, in order, and we come to 421.

19 I can't really see what the date is to which this refers. However, it

20 says here on the left-hand side: "Prevent looting. Conduct toward

21 civilians." Under 6, it says: "Movement of civilians." So in what sense

22 is movement of civilians mentioned here?

23 A. In view of the fact that it's a problem, that it's something

24 that's taking place, happening.

25 Q. And then on the right-hand side you are quoting somebody as

1 saying: "Now when we are the victims, we mustn't be criminals. We

2 mustn't commit crimes."

3 A. Yes. I assume that I quoted that quotation as something that the

4 minister said.

5 Q. So that's something the minister said, is it?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did he say that to draw attention to the people that everything

8 must be done pursuant to the law, or in some other sense?

9 A. Exclusively in that sense because we really did become the victims

10 and we felt there might be some kind of retaliation and he insisted that

11 nothing like that must be allowed to happen.

12 Q. On the next page, 422, it says here: "Military courts urgent.

13 Criminal reports for the detained. Announce the verdicts, the

14 judgements."

15 A. Yes. I think that was a position that I put forward at one point,

16 but I'm not quite sure.

17 Q. And then it says: "Detailed clearing up of the battlefield."

18 A. Yes, that's right.

19 Q. Then it says: "Movement of civilians." Now, what does that mean,

20 "movement of civilians" there; in what sense?

21 A. It's always in the same sense. Whenever that is written, it means

22 the problem of the movement of citizens.

23 Q. All right. The next page, number 23. We have -- I can't quite

24 read this, but it says something "towards Kacanik."

25 A. It says: "Columns towards Kacanik."

1 Q. All right, fine. And then what does it say?

2 A. I can't make it out. I can't read what it says here. "Get the

3 civilians away." I can't -- I can't read what it says here.

4 Q. All right. Fine. Now, what does it say after that? It says

5 "From KM towards Montenegro," I assume.

6 A. I assume that that refers to those same columns. From Kosovska

7 Mitrovica is the KM.

8 Q. Right, Kosovska Mitrovica. Fine. Now, on the next page --

9 JUDGE KWON: Staying there, staying there, after KM, it says:

10 "Military police at the border turning them back," and you put a question

11 mark there. Could you explain that?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right. Well, we were

13 thinking along those lines, and when I testified whether they should be

14 allowed to go there or whether they should -- should be stopped from

15 coming, or use force. That's what I said several times, whether force

16 should be used to prevent them from leaving or to allow them to leave and

17 thus get away from the war zone. And then of course it speaks about

18 activities of stopping them, returning them, and so on.

19 JUDGE KWON: So did the police consider that returning them back

20 is problematic at that time?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, of course not. The police

22 wanted and the army wanted them to stay where they were, but it was

23 assessed that turning them back could be problematic for them and that the

24 police could be held responsible if something happened to them; if they

25 were bombed or if they fell casualty in any way.

1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. All right. Fine. Now, on the next page, 424, you speak here on

4 the right-hand side of a series of -- you have a series of points. It

5 says "ATA." That's anti-terrorist activity, is it?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And then you have "Law and order."

8 A. Right. Law and order for joint patrols, the patrols of the army

9 and police. That's what is meant there.

10 Q. All right. Fine. Then we have "Crime prevention."

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. And what does it say in brackets?

13 A. I can't read it, it's not legible.

14 Q. And then it says: "Protection of civilians - disarmament,

15 disarming."

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And then it says clearing up the terrain - "asanacija" is the word

18 used, of -- then we have court jurisdiction, then we have volunteers, then

19 it says: "There are no volunteer units."

20 A. Yes, that's right.

21 Q. General, could you explain that to us, please. What does this

22 mean?

23 A. The concept of volunteers was frequently used mistakenly and was

24 used to explain the reserve force. The reserve force. So I wrote down my

25 thoughts on the subject there, that is to say that the concept and notion

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1 used here implies the presence of groups who should not be in Kosovo. We

2 cannot tolerate the presence of volunteer units in Kosovo. That's what

3 that means.

4 Q. Right. Fine. Now, please, could you comment 426, page 426 on the

5 right-hand side. If you want to do so, you can give us more comments, but

6 what it says at the end: "All police action. All police action in K and

7 M."

8 A. "All police actions in K and M --" "All police operations in K

9 and M were directed solely again the terrorists, not against the Albanians

10 who are citizens on a footing of equality in their own state."

11 Q. Very well. Fine. Now, on the following page, 427, it says: "For

12 the meeting." Is that your preparation for the meeting?

13 A. Probably for a meeting. I can't actually see which particular

14 meeting.

15 Q. But regardless of which meeting, what does it say here?

16 "Preventing looting, stealing, and criminal offences, together with the

17 Yugoslav army and independently."

18 A. Yes, that's right. Anybody can detain the perpetrator of a crime,

19 of a criminal offence, and I've already said that in response to a

20 question. Then it goes on to say: "Remand in detention for up to 30

21 days," and we mention wartime provisions in that regard.

22 Q. Now, please, on the right-hand side there, at the end of the --

23 bottom right-hand side, there are different tasks and assignments that are

24 enumerated, and then the Yugoslav army and arrests. It says:

25 "Relations with the VJ and arrests." What does that mean?

1 A. Joint patrols and all perpetrators of crimes to be apprehended.

2 Everything that I've explained. We decided that the police can arrest a

3 soldier if a soldier commits a crime, and the vice versa; the army can

4 take into custody a policeman if a policeman commits a crime. And that is

5 pursuant the Criminal Code; anybody can arrest the perpetrator of a crime.

6 Q. All right, and then at the bottom of that page, it says what "with

7 the VTO"? That is to say how do you cooperate with military territorial

8 bodies; is that right?

9 A. Yes, VTO, military territory -- territorial organs.

10 Q. Yes. And then what does it say? "Search for graves"?

11 A. Yes, that's right. And searching for mines, anti-tank mines,

12 infantry mines, and so on.

13 Q. And then what does it say?

14 A. Records of those killed, evacuation, and so on. Mass graves, it

15 says. Rest periods for the personnel.

16 Q. When did you jot that down, mass graves, in what sense?

17 A. To identify them and so on.

18 Q. On page 430, you say: "The protection of people and property, the

19 basic work of the police." Is that what it says?

20 A. "Basic task," it says, "basic tasks."

21 Q. Ah, right, yes, basic tasks. Protection of people and property as

22 a basic police task. And then on the left-hand side it says something,

23 "Property, movement of civilians." What does that refer to? That is the

24 16th of April. There's a date there, 16th of April, 1999.

25 A. Could you help me out here; is that on the left-hand side?

1 Q. Yes, the left-hand. It says, "vehicles, property, movement of

2 civilians." You're quoting someone, I don't know who.

3 A. Actually, if I read this right, what is cautioned against is

4 wilful behaviour of civilians, the police, the military, et cetera,

5 related to vehicles, property, blank certificates, et cetera.

6 Q. Yes. Yes. I had the impression that you were quoting someone

7 because there's a colon there.

8 A. Yes, but it says, "wilful behaviour."

9 Q. All right. So why is wilful behaviour indicated here?

10 A. To have in mind that problem and to prevent it.

11 Q. So that is mid-April 1999.

12 Next page, 431. That is the 22nd of April, 1999. Number 2, it

13 says -- could you please read this.

14 A. "Legality in conduct." It should probably be in conduct as such

15 and measures taken, but that's it. Basically, the police is responsible

16 for law and order and crime prevention, especially in populated areas.

17 "We request increased engagement of the military police in suppressing

18 wilful behaviour in crime by military personnel."

19 Q. All right. Could you please look at the next page.

20 A. I have it.

21 Q. What's this on the left-hand side, the slanted note? "Rodja"?

22 It's pretty illegible here on my copy.

23 A. I cannot read that.

24 JUDGE KWON: "The men from Sid are coming in PJP uniforms."

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, uniforms PJP.

1 MR. NICE: Could Your Honour assist me with the page number? I

2 haven't found it.

3 JUDGE KWON: 86.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. And what does it say here?

6 A. "The men from Sid are coming in PJP uniforms. Uniforms for local

7 security." And I don't know what it says as the third line, the third

8 bullet.

9 Q. What does it pertain to?

10 A. I don't know. I don't know what it is specifically. Probably

11 that they were coming and bringing uniforms. "Unity," "Jedinstvo." It

12 could be the Jedinstvo factory that makes uniforms. It's under quotation

13 marks.

14 Q. Now look at the right-hand side, please. The right-hand side

15 seems quite interesting. It says: "From the very beginning," and it says

16 so in block letters: "Treatment of civilians who are returning."

17 A. Yes, that's quite clear.

18 Q. And then what does it say underneath?

19 A. "Army -- the army should say where it is not possible. We,

20 too --"

21 Q. What is that? Could you please dwell on the first one. Does it

22 mean where the military positions are they cannot -- they should say where

23 they can and cannot?

24 A. Well, the objective here is for the army to say which are the

25 locations where they cannot return, to which they cannot return.

1 Q. And then what does it say: "We should provide them with

2 protection"?

3 A. "We should provide them with protection provided that they hand in

4 weapons, do not take in terrorists, do not hinder the movements of the

5 police, assign local security." Those were the three theses for

6 discussion with these civilians. Of course, protection was always

7 guaranteed to them irrespective of these theses.

8 Q. And what does it say under number 2: "Refugee columns"?

9 A. "Refugee columns. Secure refugee columns. Discretionary checks

10 of persons, vehicles, and cargo."

11 Q. And then?

12 A. "Going out over the border not en masse." "Not en masse," that's

13 what it probably says. "Suspicious ones should be detained, processed,

14 kept, arrested." It is a reference to persons who would be interspersed

15 among the civilians and who are obviously suspects.

16 Q. All right. That is the end of April. Were there less border

17 crossings at that time?

18 A. Yes, of course. Of course. That's my recollection.

19 Q. All right. If you look at the next page, it says: "Asanacija,"

20 under number 3, sanitisation. "Columns of refugees," and then

21 "asanacija," sanitisation. What is OKP?

22 A. That is departments of crime investigation in secretariats. And

23 then in brackets, it says: "(Investigating judge, office of the

24 prosecutor.)"

25 Q. In relation to sanitisation, activities are mentioned here of the

1 departments of the -- of crime investigation, of investigating judges and

2 prosecutors?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And then it says, "Immediately after taking a territory," and then

5 line.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. That means that immediately after a territory is taken, the crime

8 investigation department, the investigating judges and the prosecutors act

9 on this, that is on sanitisation.

10 A. Yes, that is the meaning of that thesis. And then you can see

11 further on, "Instructions of the investigating judge, burial, individual

12 documentation," et cetera.

13 Q. What's the rest? "Refugee columns."

14 A. It says, "Traces of refugee columns." I've already explained

15 that. Abandoned vehicles, objects, roads that were blocked in that way,

16 et cetera.

17 Q. All right. 4 is property. We'll skip over that. And what is 5?

18 I cannot read 5, it's not legible enough for me.

19 A. "Legality" is the heading.

20 Q. All right. I couldn't read that word.

21 A. "Ban on torchings, ban on violence against civilians --" and it's

22 very hard to read the rest.

23 Q. All right. Now, on the next page there is a reference to

24 volunteers. Please, let's see what this is all about and whether you can

25 remember and whether you can assist with clarifying this. That is 434.

1 On the left-hand side, number 14. It says: "Report, notes on," and

2 then --

3 A. Yes. "On behaviour of volunteers." That's what it says.

4 Q. What kind of volunteers were they? Volunteers who established

5 some kind of units or volunteers within?

6 A. If it's the volunteers, then it's those who were within the army

7 ranks.

8 Q. All right. And then on the next page, under number 1, you quote

9 persons who were taking part in the discussion, I assume.

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. And it says?

12 A. "Bogi," who is probably Janicijevic, and it says: "Problems with

13 volunteers and wilfulness." That has to do with what was said earlier on.

14 Q. Oh, the remark is identical, right, but at a different time?

15 A. Yes, at a different time.

16 Q. On the same page there is another reference to volunteers.

17 Somebody else is speaking about that.

18 A. There is somebody else who is talking it in the same sense.

19 Q. This person who was speaking says: "Torchings out of hand."

20 A. Yes. He is saying that he cannot put the problem under control.

21 Q. And then it says: "Local self-government."

22 A. "In Kosovska Mitrovica is not functioning."

23 Q. There's no date here. What is the time frame? To which period

24 does this refer, this note of yours?

25 A. I really don't know. The previous date is the 24th of April.

1 Q. All right. All right.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you tell us what that's all about?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am sorry. In relation to what?

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Who was -- who was doing the torching that was

5 getting out of hand?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was stated here as an

7 obvious problem that cannot be placed under control. So I do not have a

8 precise answer. The only thing I can say is that it is obvious that this

9 kind of problem was present in that area. Obviously he is stating that

10 with concern, not with support, not supportive of that phenomenon. And in

11 a way he is critical of the local self-government, because otherwise it

12 would not be logical to have any kind of criticism vis-a-vis the local

13 self-government.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. All right. There's a few of them who are talking about this.

16 This says: "Bogi - problems with volunteers - wilfulness."

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And then another one, the second one also says volunteers?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. On torchings that are out of hand?

21 A. Yes, they're obviously talking about problems in their own area.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Are these likely to be Albanians who are torching

23 something or is it likely to be someone else? Can you help us?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Of course there's no reference

25 to Albanians here. There's no individual reference at all. There is only

1 a reference to perpetrators of such criminal offences.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Do we know even who was being torched or what was

3 being torched? Whose property or whose persons were the subject of these

4 incidents?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, certainly we do know -- or,

6 rather, the person who is reporting about that knows.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. General, on this page are there statements of individual police

9 officials who are talking about wilfulness, torchings and actually the

10 commission of crimes?

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE KWON: About that, do you note the title "Keeping up

13 morale"?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

15 JUDGE KWON: These crimes might have been perpetrated by the

16 police officers or volunteers.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, certainly suspicions are

18 moving along those lines, too, but I don't think that has anything to do

19 with the other bullet. Perhaps it does.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, it's time for the break. We will

21 adjourn for 20 minutes.

22 MR. NICE: Your Honours, before Your Honours do, may I raise two

23 very short administrative matters that it may be convenient for the

24 Chamber to decide on before it reconvenes.

25 First, exhibits for this witness, might be it convenient if all

1 parties prepared written submissions? We feel we could provide a

2 tabulated version, I think for both sides' potential witnesses by the end

3 of the week. Would that be a more convenient and better use of time?

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: I am attracted to it. I will discuss that with

5 -- Ms. Higgins?

6 MS. HIGGINS: Your Honour, in terms of the Prosecution documents

7 that they seek to put in, I'm prepared to deal with them orally. And to

8 make observations on the collection of the documents. So it's in Your

9 Honours' hands.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll consider that.

11 MR. NICE: And the second point, Your Honours, is just, again, we

12 have received a number of inquires from Mr. Kristan, who of course is

13 expecting to be recalled, and is trying to fix his diary, I think, to

14 accommodate us.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We'll consider that too.

16 We are adjourned.

17 --- Recess taken at 12.19 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 12.44 p.m.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic, continue.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. General, these two comments that you noted down in your agenda

22 related to the behaviour out of hand. Tell me, how did the officers

23 attending those meetings react to those problems? How did they approach

24 them?

25 A. We can see, it's quite evident here, that lower-level leaders are

1 pointing out these problems. And it was obviously the position of the

2 leaders in the staff that these problems must be urgently stopped or

3 prevented, and of course the perpetrators of what had already been done

4 must be detected.

5 Q. Please look now at page 437. You made a note here. I suppose

6 this, too, is your handwriting. It looks like it was written when you

7 were leaning the paper on something unstable. It says: "For discussions

8 with Lazarevic."

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Under item 3, it says: "Sanitisation, clearing up the terrain,

11 Dren village - Zubin Potok."

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What does it says here?

14 A. It says: "28 corpses buried without --" I don't know this

15 abbreviation -- "procedure." It should be legal procedure.

16 Q. It looks to me like "civilian."

17 A. Well, that's possible. "Civilian" is what it looks like, but it

18 doesn't associate me with the right word to use.

19 Q. And then towards the bottom, it says --

20 A. It says "Prizren."

21 Q. Pusto Selo.

22 A. "Pusto Selo, note submitted to the district public prosecutor."

23 I've already explained this.

24 Q. That's the end of April 1999.

25 A. Yes. This is a note to which this aerial photograph was attached.

1 Q. And then on the next page, marked ERN 438, it says: "Aide-memoire

2 for the meeting."

3 A. Yes, that's what it says.

4 Q. Please try to read this. It's not very legible to me.

5 A. This is really hard to read.

6 Q. Under 1, it says --

7 A. "Aggravated circumstances." And then it says: "They are better

8 organised and more persistent." Next line: "We do not have strong --"

9 Q. It says "stronger support."

10 A. Yes, you're right. "Stronger support" is what it says.

11 "Airstrikes," and then next line: "Civilians (with them terrorists.)"

12 Q. What does it mean, "Civilians," and then "(terrorists with them)"?

13 A. We see from the heading "Aggravated Circumstances." It is

14 difficult to resolve problems with terrorists if they are intermingled

15 with civilians. That is something I explained many times, the

16 intermingling of terrorists with civilians.

17 Q. Why was that an aggravating circumstance, something that made

18 things harder?

19 A. It made things harder because the police could not take measures

20 against terrorists if they would endanger thereby the civilians. And I

21 explained several times that in such situations the police refrained to

22 the maximum from taking any repressive measures, although it would have

23 been logical to arrest terrorists.

24 Q. I'm trying not to ask leading questions, although I understand you

25 very well. Is it the case that the police avoided opening fire if there

1 was a danger of hurting civilians?

2 A. That is something I said many times, and that is indisputable.

3 Q. On page ERN number ending with 439, that's the page on which

4 Mr. Nice questioned you, I'm interested only in this one line on which he

5 questioned you quite extensively. It says: "Left the country 900.000."

6 Is it 900.000 or 90.000? Something seems to be crossed out here. Is that

7 what you wrote?

8 A. Well, this number doesn't look like it. I never heard the number

9 900.000. This second 0 is a bit problematic, because it seems to be

10 crossed out. It seems to be 90.000.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is it in your handwriting?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I said several times

13 I'm not saying that this could not be my handwriting, it is, but some

14 details, some letters were shifted or corrected. I said the sequence of

15 the pages is not correct. I said that there's handwriting that isn't

16 mine, such as when the pages are marked, or in several other places, but

17 generally speaking, this is my handwriting.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... appears to

19 be different from the remaining four, and certainly different --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What is different -- I mean, the

21 first and the second 0 are different from the other three. The first is

22 too small, and the second one is too big and has something that looks like

23 a hook that is unintelligible.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. All right. But could you tell us with any certainty that you

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13 English transcripts.

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1 wrote the number 900.000 yourself?

2 A. I don't think I did.

3 Q. Then at the bottom of this page, it says: "Crime control."

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And below that it says: "Residence." What does that refer to?

6 A. I already explained that this relates to the activity of

7 registering placing of residence of displaced persons in Kosovo and

8 Metohija.

9 Q. Then you have ERN number ending with 440. That's the 4th of May,

10 1999. It says: "Minister," then underneath, "Political part," and then

11 it says, "Return of refugees. Return of the ICRC and the UNHCR." Is that

12 it?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And what is it that follows below ICRC and UNHCR?

15 A. I can't read it. The copy is very bad. It looks like "Agreement

16 with Albanians." Maybe "Renewal of negotiations with Albanians."

17 Q. No. That doesn't seem to be it. Is it perhaps the agreement

18 about local police?

19 A. I really cannot identify it unless it is "Renewal of

20 negotiations," meaning political negotiations. I really don't know what

21 it means, what it could mean. Or maybe talks.

22 Q. Very well. On the next page, 441, it says: "President," and then

23 below that, it says: "Crime." I cannot read the other word, but at the

24 bottom it says: "The state must adhere to the law." Is that what it

25 says?

1 A. Yes, in that last line.

2 Q. And what is this previous line; "Crime," and then I can't make out

3 the following word.

4 A. Well, it may be "paramilitaries."

5 Q. Yes, "Crime, paramilitaries," and then what does it say below?

6 A. I cannot identify the little bullet point just underneath.

7 Q. And how about this sentence: "The state must adhere to the law"?

8 Does that have anything to do with crime or paramilitaries?

9 A. Logically so.

10 Q. And on the right page that's yet another meeting of the 5th of

11 May.

12 JUDGE KWON: Was that the president's comment, and who was the

13 president?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, I can't tell you with any

15 certainty. I suppose it is the president of the FRY, Slobodan Milosevic,

16 and it would be logical for these to be his points. Or maybe I prepared

17 these points, but I never participated in the discussions at the

18 president's office. I really cannot tell you at this moment.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Very well. "Crime, paramilitaries." The next word cannot be made

21 out, but the last line is clear: "The state must adhere to the law."

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, do you intend to go through this

24 entire document?

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I wish to go through only a

1 few more. I'm skipping entire pages because the entire document shows in

2 a way the continuity of one and the same type of conduct. There is no

3 change of conduct in terms of treatment, legality, multi-ethnic Kosovo,

4 treatment of Albanians, treatment of refugees, et cetera.

5 For instance, 443 --

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the fact that you want or that you are

7 seeking comments from the general on parti