1 Thursday, 2 June 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, you were in midstream yesterday. The

7 Chamber will endeavour to ensure that doesn't happen again. You may

8 proceed with your cross-examination.

9 MR. NICE: Thank you. I don't know if the Chamber still has the

10 document that was distributed yesterday. If not, we do have further

11 copies. May it be made available to the witness.

12 WITNESS: OBRAD STEVANOVIC [Resumed]

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice: [Continued]

15 Q. While it's coming, Mr. Stevanovic, you might recall that yesterday

16 we were looking at a different document from that which is being

17 distributed. We were looking at a document of the 2nd of June to

18 Stojiljkovic and others which got an incorrectly attached last page but

19 which referred to Ministry of Interior special units arriving at the

20 institution at 5.00 on the 22nd of May.

21 Now, would you please be good enough to look at this document.

22 This is a document, if you'd look at the last page, that comes from the

23 warden, Aleksandar Rakocevic, who is referred to in other documentation,

24 and then we go to the front page and we'll see what it's all about.

25 On the first page it says it goes to the Ministry of Justice in

1 Belgrade. Incidentally, before I forget the point, was the person at your

2 rank in the Ministry of Justice also called Stevanovic at that time but

3 with a different first name?

4 A. Yes. There was one such person in my position, and there were

5 several other assistants to the minister of justice.

6 Q. Now, if we look at this document, we see that it's a report on the

7 NATO Air Force attack. First of all, it deals with the 19th of May, but

8 if the Chamber would like to look at the foot of the first page -- or if

9 Mr. Prendergast would lay the foot of the first page on the ground, we can

10 see that it says this: "The main building was destroyed," et cetera, and

11 then: "We placed the convicts temporarily on the sports ground." If we

12 move on then to the second page please, which again I'm not going to go

13 through. We can see it covers matters on the 21st of May, with bombing

14 until 1030 hours, the death of the deputy warden --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me. I cannot hear the

16 interpretation very well. Could the volume be turned up.

17 Yes, it's better now. Thank you.

18 MR. NICE:

19 Q. We see it goes on in the second page in English, and in

20 thereabouts, I think, in your document to deal with the 21st with the

21 death of the warden and with dozens killed or injured, the arrival of the

22 journalists, the arrival of the investigative judge.

23 And then on page 3 in the English, it says: "Immediately after

24 the journalists left --" and this is, I think, also at page 3 of yours:

25 "-- and headed towards the main road, the attack started, during which

1 the complete infrastructure was destroyed." It says this: "According to

2 our visual estimate, about 500 [sic] convicts were killed, the majority of

3 them buried under the wreckage."

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: 100.

5 MR. NICE: Yes.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: You'll see you said 500, Mr. Nice. It's in the

7 transcript.

8 MR. NICE: Oh, no. I said 100, sorry. If I said 500, my error.

9 Q. And then it says the parking bay were hit by missiles, and then

10 this: "On the 22nd of May at about 0500 hours, a special MUP unit arrived

11 and entered the closed section of the Institution. Following an order by

12 this special MUP unit, the security service employees were withdrawn to

13 the broader radius around the circular wall. We do not know what they

14 were doing there, but we could hear detonations. The same MUP unit

15 arrived again around 1700 hours, as well as on the 23rd ... at around 0500

16 hours."

17 It concludes by saying: "On the 24th, at about 0600 hours in the

18 morning another MUP unit arrived with ten buses and three trucks, which

19 evacuated the convicts into an unknown direction, and this finished about

20 0900."

21 Now, working in reverse order, is the 24th of May's MUP unit the

22 unit you've spoken about, the evacuation unit?

23 A. Of course that would follow from this here. It's a bit odd that

24 the warden doesn't know that they were sent to Lipjan but, rather, he says

25 in an unknown direction. I find this a bit odd.

1 Q. Maybe he wasn't told. How do you know that he was told?

2 A. It's possible, of course.

3 Q. Now, let's go back to what the warden sets out as having happened

4 at 5.00 in the morning. It matches the document provided by the accused

5 with the curious ending to it, and it says that it was followed by the

6 sound of detonations. Do you know anything about this, Mr. Stevanovic?

7 A. I know absolutely nothing about this. This is the first time I've

8 heard of anything like this.

9 Q. Well, not the first time you've heard of it if you'd reviewed the

10 document in the accused's bundle that we looked at yesterday. But maybe -

11 help us - did you not focus your attention on the 5.00 in the morning

12 reference to the arrival of the special forces when you reviewed the

13 documents ahead of coming to give evidence?

14 A. I tried to review all the documents, and I've already answered

15 your question once and I told you that I was unable to look at each and

16 every document in detail. Of course the details of this quotation that

17 you read out are something I remember from the document we saw yesterday.

18 These details relate to the entry of police units at 500 hours and these

19 other two times, but I don't remember that in the document we saw

20 yesterday it was mentioned that detonations were heard. Of course, it

21 doesn't say here what sort of detonations they were or what caused them,

22 but it was not mentioned in the document we saw yesterday.

23 Q. You're quite right, and well spotted. Nor does this document

24 suggest in any way that the detonations were bombing. It would have said

25 bombing if so.

1 Is the truth this, Mr. Stevanovic, a truth that you actually know,

2 and as I suggested to you yesterday, there was a plan, cynically, to kill

3 all the Albanian prisoners in that prison and later to blame it on the

4 NATO bombing? Is that the truth?

5 A. That is absolutely untrue.

6 Q. You can provide this Chamber with no explanation of or account

7 of --

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Was it only Albanians who were killed?

9 MR. NICE: I can elaborate on that. It was only Albanians who

10 were killed, and although we don't have time to explore everything with

11 this witness, the Prosecution's case on this would be that there were a

12 limited number of Serb prisoners held in the prison, not -- not

13 necessarily held exclusively -- in exclusively Serb units, but held in

14 units where they were not exposed to risk from KLA or thought to be KLA

15 supporters. I think it was in unit number 6, but I'm not sure.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: The evidence has been -- in your case evidence

17 was adduced on that?

18 MR. NICE: No. I'm just explaining what the position would be.

19 But certainly none of them was killed as a result of what happened, and

20 whether they were separated or not I don't know, but they weren't killed,

21 as I understand it, none of them.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Your suggestions should be based on the case that

23 you have presented.

24 MR. NICE: Certainly. And to some extent it's based on -- of

25 course, when I put matters in detail it's based on additional information

1 that's coming my way and that may be the subject of applications either

2 for rebuttal or to reopen the case. And I've made it clear through my

3 questions to this witness that some of the material I'm putting to him is

4 recently obtained, including from the documents but also from other

5 sources.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see. Very well.

7 MR. NICE: Thank you.

8 Q. In your answers here about Dubrava, you didn't consider, maybe you

9 didn't have a chance to consider, some of the evidence that's available in

10 this case and indeed is part of the case. Were you aware that a Danish

11 forensic military team examined the prison in August of 1999 and took a

12 video of what it found?

13 A. I'm not aware of that fact.

14 Q. We'll play it to you, or some very limited extract from it for

15 you, and I'm going to ask you if you'd like to comment on the things that

16 we see or, alternatively, to review your opinion.

17 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the video itself is about an hour and a

18 half long.

19 [Videotape played]

20 MR. NICE:

21 Q. First of all, we see here, do we not, an aerial view of this very

22 large prison. We see an aerial view of this very large prison, with a

23 perimeter wall, a series of buildings laid out in a, I suppose, broadly

24 square shape, and at one end of it we can see the sports field.

25 There we see, I think, the sports field on the right but it's

1 going out of view. And here we see, I think, some of the blocks for

2 holding prisoners.

3 You yourself had overflown this, hadn't you, Mr. Stevanovic?

4 A. During 1998, I think.

5 Q. We see clearly the results of one bomb on that building, but we

6 see other buildings which have not got bomb holes through their roofs.

7 MR. NICE: All right. I think that's enough of that. Next clip,

8 please.

9 JUDGE KWON: Is this already exhibited?

10 MR. NICE: This is Exhibit 165, tab 8, the video.

11 JUDGE KWON: Nine hours.

12 MR. NICE: Is it nine hours?

13 JUDGE KWON: We haven't seen this actually.

14 MR. NICE: We haven't viewed it, but it's been produced.

15 [Videotape played]

16 MR. NICE:

17 Q. Now, here this is an inside area, and what you're looking for, or

18 what we're looking at is can you see pockmarks on the floor? We'll see

19 more of them in subsequent clips. We see pockmarks on the floor, and you

20 can see pockmarks on the -- you can see pockmarks on the wall.

21 Now, Mr. Stevanovic, in your experience are those consistent with

22 the shrapnel from hand grenades?

23 A. I don't know. This might be shrapnel from a hand grenade.

24 MR. NICE: Thank you. Next one.

25 [Videotape played]

1 MR. NICE: A room with it looks like bedding and similar in it.

2 Pockmarks on the floor, you can see, or shrapnel marks on the floor.

3 Next clip, please.

4 [Videotape played]

5 MR. NICE:

6 Q. We see shrapnel marks on the wall and on the ceiling, on the

7 ventilator duct, if that's what it is.

8 Pausing there, please. You see a hole there in a duct of some

9 kind, I think.

10 Mr. Stevanovic, what you've seen so far, is that -- you're a

11 senior policeman with the rank of general at the time or before this time.

12 Is what you've seen consistent with hand grenades and/or gunfire within

13 those rooms?

14 A. I really cannot give you any opinion about that because I have

15 never had occasion to see such traces. Forensic technicians would be in a

16 better position to talk about this. I can see traces that might be

17 fragments from larger bombs, but I do not consider myself an expert on

18 this, and I cannot answer this question.

19 MR. NICE: Just pause that for a minute. If we can just stop

20 there.

21 Q. You see traces that might be fragments from larger bombs. Traces

22 of what? These are enclosed buildings with roofs and ceilings intact,

23 subject to some damage. What do you say is a trace of what might be a

24 fragment from a larger bomb, if you're not an expert?

25 A. I really don't know what you're referring to. What I can see here

1 are scraps of paper or sheeting or something else.

2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I was asking you about your

3 previous answer. You said you saw traces of something that might be

4 fragments from larger bombs. I wanted you to tell us what you were

5 talking about.

6 A. I wasn't claiming that these were traces of larger bombs. I was

7 trying to explain that I cannot confirm that they were traces of hand

8 grenades, because the kind of traces I saw do not have associations in my

9 mind with any kind of bomb. Obviously these are fragments, but I cannot

10 really say what kind of explosive device they came from.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: There are two separate issues there. What was

12 being pointed out to you was marks on the wall, but am I right in thinking

13 you're referring to what you see as pieces of material that may have come

14 from an explosive device?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I tried to explain that the traces I

16 saw on the walls and the floor, according to what experience I have, might

17 originate from fragments of different kinds of explosive devices, but I'm

18 unable to associate these with any kind of specific explosive device.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: It was just that you used the expression - at least

20 the way it was translated earlier - was "fragments from larger bombs," but

21 it's not -- you were talking about marks on the wall rather than pieces of

22 material, or were you talking of both?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I was referring to the traces

24 on the wall which were caused by fragments coming from some sort of

25 explosive device.

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1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

2 MR. NICE: Before we restart --

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, isn't the truth that the witness can't

4 help us very much on this?

5 MR. NICE: The witness has tried to help us from a range of

6 material, giving us a concluded version of what happened at Dubrava.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: I mean this question of where the fragments came

8 from. He doesn't have the expertise. He has said so.

9 MR. NICE: He doesn't have the expertise and he hasn't considered

10 this material, and it may be -- and all the other material of a forensic

11 scientific kind, to which I was going to refer in summary, then it may be

12 his evidence on this topic is necessarily and inevitably quite valueless

13 for there is a great deal of forensic scientific in the materials already

14 produced. Not just this film. There are two written reports which deal

15 with the findings, and I wanted this witness to have a chance to deal with

16 some of the more obvious points from them.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm not embracing your wider proposition.

18 Proceed.

19 MR. NICE: Very well.

20 Q. This, you see, is the area where the prisoners, having been

21 released after the first bombing to sleep, were found. We can see an

22 inspection tower in the corner, or a watchtower in the corner, and the

23 wall.

24 Now, help us: If I suggest to you, as I do, that there are no

25 bomb craters found in this area at all and never were found, are you in

1 any position to contradict me?

2 A. Of course I cannot contradict you because I have no knowledge of

3 this. I was never in this place. This is the first time I've seen this

4 film, and anything I say would be speculation. I am not a forensic

5 expert. I am not an expert on explosives. Of course I will answer all

6 your questions if I know the answer. In this case I have spoken only of

7 what I know, but I do not know anything about what you are asking me now.

8 Q. Very well. I may come back to just a couple more pictures from

9 the scientific reports but otherwise I'll leave the question of Dubrava

10 and analysis of the evidence for subsequent argument, but we will return

11 to two documents.

12 MR. NICE: May we look next at tab 205.

13 MR. KAY: Binder 6.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

15 MR. NICE:

16 Q. This is a composition of papers produced by the accused, and the

17 part I'm looking at and concerned to look at is the record of on-site

18 investigation. We can just look briefly at that.

19 Do you have the record of on-site investigation?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. If we turn to the last page of it, three pages in English and I

22 suspect the same in your Serbian version, we see -- yes. I said it's a

23 composition of papers, but it's on the on-site investigation report and

24 three pages and as --

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, there are several of these. Which --

1 JUDGE KWON: That's not it, Mr. Prendergast. That's Official

2 Note. Third page of on-site investigation report.

3 MR. NICE: Your Honour is quite right. It's the -- the way I have

4 it in the bundle I have is in three pages. Does Your Honour have one in

5 three pages?

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I've got one in three pages with an Official

7 Note as a fourth page.

8 MR. NICE: That's right. That's the one, I think.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay. Thank you.

10 MR. NICE: And --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is page 3 and the Official Note

12 is page 4 in my version, which is a copy of the original.

13 MR. NICE:

14 Q. So we can -- if you turn to the third page, which --

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just wanted to help the witness

17 find his way around, as well as Mr. Nice. In this tab, there are three

18 attachments. Attachment number 3 is the record of on-site investigation,

19 which in the original has two pages. I hope the witness can see that.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then in the same tab we have

22 attachment number 4. That's the Official Note, one page only -- half a

23 page, actually. And attachment number 5, another Official Note. So in

24 this tab we have three documents: The record of on-site investigation and

25 two official notes.

1 MR. NICE: Thank you.

2 Q. Mr. Stevanovic if you go to the second page of your on-site

3 investigation report - for the Court it's the third page - we can see that

4 the document, whether dated or not, covers at least the 26th of May. So

5 it goes beyond the 24th and 5th of May to the 26th of May.

6 If you'd now, please, come back in the Serbian version to the

7 first page, I think, and certainly in the English version, the English

8 translation, to the second page. We see a paragraph that's headed or

9 titled "On-site investigation - continued," and it says: "On the 24th of

10 May, the same investigation team, joined by Slobodan Radovic ..." Do you

11 find that paragraph?

12 A. Yes. It's on page 2 in the original as well. At the very top.

13 Q. That says: "Upon inspection of the premises --" "... of the

14 scene -" I beg your pardon - "the atrocious consequences of the bombing

15 that lasted for several days have become obvious. Dozens of killed

16 inmates were found in the prison mess, presenting a horrid sight. There

17 is a hole several metres in diameter in the ceiling or roof structure of

18 the mess through which the sky can be seen. Forensic technicians

19 collected fragments of aerial bombs ..."

20 Now, will you please just confirm that this document that includes

21 that passage contains absolutely no reference at all to any alleged

22 bombing at 6.00 on the morning of the 22nd.

23 A. The passage that you have read certainly doesn't mention that. I

24 don't know if there is another passage where it is mentioned, but you are

25 right as far as this paragraph is concerned.

1 Q. And indeed in this report itself, that is not mentioned.

2 If we go to the Official Note, which is the next document, as the

3 accused reminded us and as His Honour Judge Bonomy I think has already

4 found, we find the Official Note that we've looked at before, apparently

5 dated the 22nd of May, 1999, coming from Bojic, which concludes with the

6 paragraph: "According to subsequent information, NATO continued the

7 bombing on that day from 1700 hours to 1805, and then again at 2310;

8 another attack took place on the 22nd of May at 0610 hours."

9 Now, let me make it quite clear to you: My suggestion is that

10 documents that suggest in one way or another bombing at 6.10 in the

11 morning or documents such as the one we were looking at earlier which

12 ascribe all deaths to the consequences of the bombing over a period of

13 days have been created in order to mislead and to hide the truth.

14 A. I absolutely cannot confirm or agree with your suggestion,

15 Mr. Prosecutor. During the examination-in-chief, we saw that this

16 reference does exist in some other document as well. We see it here in a

17 document created by an investigative judge. There may be certain

18 contradictions, but any contradiction contained in these documents would

19 require additional verification. At this moment I can simply not state

20 anything one way or another because I don't know. None of these documents

21 are mine.

22 Yesterday you used the term "fabrication." If any fabrication

23 took place indeed, then everything would probably fit in. These

24 contradictions tell me that there was no attempt at cover-up. Documents

25 were created that contain certain contradictions. Why they are there

1 would require additional checking. I cannot tell you at this moment why a

2 certain reference exists in one document but not in another --

3 Q. But why --

4 A. -- because none of these documents, as I said, are mine.

5 Q. Why did special units, of which you must have been aware, take the

6 prison over at very short notice from 5.00 on the morning of the 22nd?

7 A. I cannot give a clear answer even on that. The prison

8 administration falls within the local purview of the police station in

9 Istok and the Secretariat of the Interior in Pec. That is where this

10 incident involving loss of life happened. Nobody should issue any orders

11 to the local competent police for them to go on site and take all the

12 measures prescribed by the law. Why they went there at those particular

13 hours I cannot speculate now.

14 Q. And you --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Nice, what's your position on the bombing --

16 the alleged bombing at 6.10 on the 22nd of May?

17 MR. NICE: I'm sorry I hadn't made it clear. That's a complete --

18 JUDGE BONOMY: That's also part of your fabrication allegation.

19 MR. NICE: The allegation is that at 5.00 --

20 JUDGE BONOMY: I follow the relationship.

21 MR. NICE: -- and from that moment on there was no bombing, and

22 that any allegation of bombing from midnight on the 21st is a cover-up.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

24 MR. NICE: And my suggestion is that's actually supported by the

25 material we have here.

1 Can we look at one more document, please, this one.

2 Q. Now, this document that you're looking at, which is dated the 4th

3 of June, says: "In relation to an order of the Court --" it comes from

4 Rakocevic again, who is referred to in the accused's documentation,

5 "-- forwarded me from the MUP Pec, I inform you of the following:

6 "It was not known to me on the 21st, 24th and 25th of May that an

7 on-site investigation was conducted by the Investigating Judge because I

8 was neither present nor was I informed about it."

9 Don't you find that a little odd, Mr. Stevanovic, that the

10 governor of the -- the chief warden of the prison was not even informed

11 about an investigation happening at his gaol?

12 A. Of course it does appear odd. That's precisely what I said in

13 response to one of the previous questions. For the prison warden not to

14 know where about a thousand prisoners are being evacuated.

15 Look at the next paragraph, though. He says: "I do know that the

16 investigations started on the 21st of May, 1999 ..." So already in the

17 next paragraph he says he knew.

18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... read it all then, please, if

19 you want to. I'll read it to you a little more swiftly, and follow it in

20 the original.

21 "After the 21st of May ... all activities related to the newly

22 arisen situation at PCI Istok were taken over by the authorised SUP organs

23 and the Investigating Judge. I do not know how far they got with the

24 on-site investigation. Therefore, I was not able to act according to the

25 order since do I not have the requested information at my disposal.

1 "Regarding the security employees, they were all present in

2 accordance with the regular rota, and those wounded were --" and then he

3 names and identifies them.

4 Last paragraph: "Due to the resulting situation at the

5 institution following the arrival of the MUP employees on the 22nd of May

6 at 0500 hours --" and perhaps you'd be good enough to read from the

7 original the last sentence that the translator found difficult to read.

8 Can you read the last sentence, please?

9 A. The last sentence is: "Due to the resulting situation at the

10 institution following the arrival of the MUP employees on the 22nd of May

11 at 500 hours, employees of the security service of the PCI Istok were not

12 present."

13 That is the wording of the last paragraph.

14 Q. Now, then, Mr. Stevanovic, if you can't tell us what the people

15 were doing deployed at 0500, can you tell me where I should go to find the

16 written orders, the written records, et cetera, of what they did?

17 A. The only place where one should look for such documents are the

18 SUP of Pec or the municipal or district court in Pec, and of course the

19 prison administration. I'm certainly surprised that the deputy prison

20 warden is not aware of the facts related to the prison he is

21 administrating. We should establish the reason why he doesn't know.

22 That, of course, is only my assumption, and all that I have said,

23 in fact, is only an assumption because I don't really know. I'm seeing

24 the document for the first time.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: That surely was a misunderstanding of the question.

1 I think the question that was put to you was where would Mr. Nice obtain

2 the orders that related to the attendance of the MUP at 5.00 in the

3 morning, not the investigating judge and the SUP acting with him.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's possible that I misunderstood,

5 but I answered that question too. The address where you could find such

6 documents is the Secretariat of the Interior in Pec. That is the instance

7 that is qualified, has control over that locality.

8 MR. NICE:

9 Q. I thought yesterday you told us - I'll be corrected if I'm wrong -

10 that for the deployment of SUP or MUP officials to take over a prison in

11 the way that is clear this prison was taken over would require very high

12 authority. Are there going to be ministerial records that will show what

13 happened in respect of this prison at 5.00 on the 22nd?

14 A. First of all, let me say that I have never said that any action of

15 the police in such a case would require a decision from higher up along

16 the chain of command of the MUP. It could be a case of misinterpretation.

17 I said several times that in case of such incidents --

18 Q. Very well.

19 A. -- the local competent police acts according to the law without

20 any special instructions. And of course this is not a case of take-over,

21 although this word may be used some way here, but in my understanding --

22 JUDGE BONOMY: All the signs here are of the Ministry of the

23 Interior, one part, at least, taking over a prison. I don't know if the

24 prison falls under the Ministry of the Interior. It may do. But is it

25 normal for the police to be able to enter and take over control of a

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1 prison without any authority from a fairly senior position?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course it's not normal for the

3 police to enter a prison and take it over. We agree on that point

4 completely. But I never spoke of any take-over of the prison. I spoke of

5 police action, regular police action, in cases of incidents involving loss

6 of life. There is regular procedure for that, and no special instructions

7 or orders are required. The police administration is aware of that, and

8 they are required to call the police and the investigative organs to come

9 and perform their job.

10 MR. NICE:

11 Q. Mr. Stevanovic, I'm going to make my suggestion to you crystal

12 clear and I'm going to ask you just to look at a couple of documents and

13 we'll move to another topic. My suggestion to you is that you and indeed

14 this accused, as you know and he knows, know full well that this was a

15 cynical, planned massacre, and you are here determined to defend that

16 position on behalf of this accused. Do I make myself clear?

17 A. That is absolutely not true, and I must say that I am deeply

18 offended by the suggestion, because I came here to testify to the facts

19 that I do know, and you are practically accusing me in front of this Trial

20 Chamber, and I would like the Trial Chamber to protect me if this is not

21 supposed to happen.

22 I have said that no such plan existed, and I have never been aware

23 of anything remotely similar. I have explained in detail all that I know.

24 You continue to examine me on things that I know nothing about.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: General, you have asked for the protection of the

1 Trial Chamber. Mr. Nice comes from a tradition of vigorous prosecution,

2 and that is wholly consistent with the tradition in this Tribunal as well.

3 You don't require any protection. You answer the questions.

4 MR. NICE:

5 Q. This is one of many photographs --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

7 MR. NICE:

8 Q. This is one of many photographs from the area where the prisoners

9 were found, the photographs taken in August of 1999 by the Danish forensic

10 team, and the evidence would suggest no bomb craters but marks of this

11 kind on the ground. Exhibit 165, tab 9, part of it.

12 MR. NICE: Mr. Prendergast, if you would be good enough.

13 Q. From such marks on the ground the experts were able to trace

14 definable lines of fire, as shown here; football field, volleyball ground,

15 basketball ground, all in the sports area, from different directions.

16 Did you at any time in your perusal of the materials provided by

17 the Serb authorities find record of gunfire shots on the ground? Did you?

18 A. No. In none of the materials that I reviewed have I found

19 reference to any traces of gunfire.

20 Q. Nor indeed in the forensic examination of Dubrava carried out by

21 the investigative judge did you find any adequate examination of the

22 ground at all, did you? Because there was superficial examination of the

23 bodies, burial, and end of story.

24 A. I know what was done, and I have certain information that the

25 on-site investigation was interrupted at least two times and was resumed

1 three times, and from what I saw I could conclude that the on-site

2 investigation was not performed quite meticulously as it was supposed to

3 and as would have been normal procedure. But I think that was due to the

4 ongoing danger and risk.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There is no sense in wasting further

7 time, because this witness cannot help us with forensic issues. And as

8 you know full well, as Mr. Nice knows full well, and I know, too, those --

9 that forensic evidence, seeing that it dates back to the August, has no

10 value whatsoever. Those traces could have been left by the KLA in the

11 meantime. And if they wanted to fabricate that story, they could have

12 done anything to do it.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ...

14 Mr. Milosevic.

15 Mr. Nice, you may consider the value of putting questions of that

16 type to the witness. He has already said he doesn't have forensic

17 expertise.

18 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I would, in the ordinary course of events,

19 ask some further questions, but in light of the pressures on time, this is

20 a very important matter that I wanted to explore because of the nature of

21 the allegation I'm making against both the accused and the witness, but I

22 think if I simply draw to the Court's attention that there's a whole

23 Spanish team's investigation and there's also the evidence of the

24 ballistics found in the bodies, to which reference has already been made,

25 and I'll move.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that plan an exhibit?

2 MR. NICE: Yes, it is an exhibit.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: What's its tab number?

4 MR. NICE: 165, tab 9.

5 JUDGE KWON: I don't remember. I saw this diagram before, but ...

6 MR. NICE: It's in the materials that have been produced, as

7 indeed has the Spanish team's analysis; 165, tab 8.

8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I remember that.

9 MR. NICE: And the ballistics evidence and so on. And Your

10 Honour, as I have perhaps already indicated, it also seemed to me fair to

11 put --

12 JUDGE KWON: Tab 8 is the videotape.

13 MR. NICE: Is the videotape, and there's also the written report

14 as well, with conclusions. And Your Honours, it also seemed appropriate

15 to put my allegations, or the Prosecution's case, to this witness in the

16 fullest detail given that I am going to make an application in respect of

17 additional evidence, reopening or rebuttal as it may be.

18 I'll move to another topic.

19 Q. I'm going to deal now with some more general points,

20 Mr. Stevanovic, before we return to particular sites that feature in the

21 indictment. These are general points of -- on Kosovo.

22 MR. NICE: Would Your Honours just give me one minute.

23 [Prosecution counsel confer]

24 MR. NICE:

25 Q. Can we look, please, at Exhibit 319, tab 32. This is a document,

1 Mr. Stevanovic, found in the Pec police station. Date not entirely clear

2 but January 1999 is the subject of the first substantive paragraph.

3 In light of what you've said about the attitude of troops and

4 police at the time, between 1998 and 1999, can you help us, please, with

5 why under "Objective" it should be said in an ambush plan: "To prevent

6 the movement of terrorists on the above-mentioned local road," and to

7 "eliminate the said terrorists ..."?

8 A. If this document is genuine - I do see a signature here, the

9 signature of Borislav Vlahovic purportedly, although I'm not sure it's his

10 signature - then the objective as defined here is formulated in a

11 partially lawful way, with the proviso that it is not clear what

12 "elimination" is supposed to mean here. If what is meant is to kill the

13 terrorists, then it is not a legitimate aim at that stage.

14 Q. Likewise paragraph III, "General tasks," under monitoring the said

15 road, et cetera, et cetera, and then: "... Upon identification of the

16 vehicles and their passengers, use concentrated fire to neutralise and

17 eliminate them."

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I have this document, please?

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let the accused have a copy.

20 May I ask whether in the B/C/S the translation of the word is

21 correctly "eliminate"?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The term "liquidation" is used

23 here. I have explained in response to one of the previous questions that

24 that term has a broad and a narrow meaning. In the narrow meaning it

25 means to kill with premeditation, and in the broader sense it means to

1 neutralise terrorists as such; to disarm them, to pacify them, to make

2 them disband, to make them disappear. But if it is used here in the

3 meaning to kill, then I can confirm that this position as expressed here

4 is not the official position of the Ministry of the Interior or the policy

5 of the Ministry of the Interior in the combat against terrorists.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that this document that the

7 general is seeing now for the first time - and the same goes for me - it

8 is absolutely necessary in order for him to answer any further questions

9 to have time to read it in full. In the preamble of the document, it is

10 said that the terrorists located in the Jablanica village --

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'll hear the accused. Yes. Just finish what

12 you're saying.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That this plan here relates to a

14 precisely defined group of terrorists. It says they use Opel Ascona cars,

15 a white Mercedes, a white Lada Niva with an installed Browning heavy

16 machine-gun, et cetera, et cetera. So all of this refers to the

17 liquidation of an identified group.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. I have the point, and the witness no

19 doubt has it too.

20 If the witness wants to have the entire document read, then he's

21 entitled to that. If he wants time to read the document in full so that

22 he knows the entire context in which the particular question is being put,

23 he's entitled to have it read.

24 And you, Mr. Milosevic, know that this is a matter that you can

25 raise in re-examination.

1 So that if you feel, General, that you are disadvantaged at any

2 time by having a particular section to you without the other sections

3 being brought to your attention, then that's a matter that you can raise.

4 MR. NICE:

5 Q. Mr. Stevanovic, would you go and look --

6 A. Thank you, Mr. President. Of course it is always necessary when I

7 am handed a document and when I see it for the first time to see who

8 compiled the document and who brought it in, and now the question here is

9 whether the document was put into practice, what it says in the document.

10 Thirdly, in my many years of experience I have had any number of

11 cases where my subordinate writes a document which is -- does not

12 correspond to the law, and I had to send it back at least five times so

13 that the text does conform with the law. So I would have to know more

14 about this text and document, whether it was acted upon, and I'd have to

15 look at the entire context.

16 Here the term was used as it was. Of course it is very important

17 to see whether the plan is directed against concrete identified terrorist

18 groups so that there can be no consequences on any innocent persons. And

19 the fact that it says that doesn't actually mean that somebody is going to

20 wait in ambush for such a group and to kill it without any attempts to

21 apprehend the persons and take them arrest, because the procedure is to

22 use weaker means first of all and move on to stronger means, not to

23 liquidate straight away. And I have already explained, of course, that

24 the consequences of any action can result in death.

25 MR. NICE:

1 Q. Would you go to --

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, yes.

3 MR. NICE:

4 Q. Would you go to VIII, please. The Chamber's page 3, but you will

5 want to look at the original as well to make sense of what I'm going to

6 ask.

7 The original, although it was subsequently crossed out, contained

8 a suggestion that each squad should have hand-held launchers with 30

9 bullets manufactured in China.

10 The only reason for having bullets manufactured in China would be

11 to ascribe action falsely to the KLA. Am I correct?

12 A. Let me find the passage you've just read out first. I don't seem

13 to be able to find it.

14 Q. Top of page 4.

15 A. Well, it does say manufactured in China, but then you can see that

16 that was crossed out. So I don't really know why manufactured in China is

17 mentioned at all.

18 Q. This document generally, I suggest, shows what I was asserting

19 yesterday and will continue to assert to you; that there was a determined

20 plan to wipe out the KLA, and by unlawful means if necessary.

21 A. The plan to eliminate the KLA undoubtedly existed. So the plan to

22 eliminate terrorism from Kosovo did indeed exist. It was a firm plan at

23 all levels, and it was consistent right down the line. But there was no

24 plan for terrorism to be wiped out using unlawful means.

25 I claim and state that the overall policy always consistent from

1 top to bottom, that terrorism should be eliminated, that citizens should

2 be protected, and that law and order should be brought to Kosovo and

3 Metohija, but not including unlawful means.

4 And I could just add that despite the fact that I always claim,

5 and I claim now too, that it was the position that terrorists cannot be

6 liquidated as intent, as a premeditated intent, of course does not mean

7 that it is unlawful.

8 Q. I'm afraid I'm going to have to cut you short on answers unless

9 the Chamber thinks it's wrong for me to do so because of the limitations

10 on time. When you've answered something, we'll move on.

11 If we now look, please, at your diary for possibly a little later

12 on but roughly the same period of time, the 15th of February -- I beg your

13 pardon, 14th of February, which is part of tab 440 of your own exhibits.

14 And in the English version it is page 39 and 40, I think. 39 will do.

15 MR. KAY: Binder 17.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't seem to have it,

17 unfortunately.

18 MR. NICE:

19 Q. In the -- sorry. It's actually page -- can we go to page 40 of

20 the English, and it's R0172392 in the top right-hand corner for you,

21 Mr. Stevanovic. Hand-numbered page 28. 28. Do you have that page?

22 A. 0172392. Is that the right page?

23 Q. This is the 16th of February, reflecting a meeting of a collegium

24 of -- the collegium. You'll tell us what the collegium was. What was the

25 collegium composed of?

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1 A. Well, the collegium of the minister was made up of the minister's

2 assistants and the heads of the departments at the headquarters of the

3 ministry.

4 Q. Very well. And what we see is this, under number 1, first bullet

5 point: "Together with the Pristina Corps, the finishing touches are being

6 put to the plan for a broad anti-terrorist operation in the period between

7 the possible airstrikes and the entry of ground forces.

8 "Sending all OPJP or PJP detachments."

9 There was a clear expectation, was there not, that you would have

10 an opportunity to eliminate the KLA between, in the short window of time

11 between the bombing that you expected and the arrival of ground forces.

12 That's what that means.

13 A. It states clearly that there is an anti-terrorist plan for the

14 period from the airstrikes to the entry of NATO ground forces, and that is

15 a plan -- the plan that I spoke about. I can't identify it in concrete

16 terms. I think there were two such plans, one in 1998 and one in 1999,

17 and I think that is the plan that is referred to here, the 1999 plan.

18 Q. And it was the willingness to act illegally in that period of time

19 that led to some of the gravest crimes with which this accused has been

20 charged. That's my suggestion to you. What do you say about that?

21 A. That is not true. Not at any single point did anybody ever utter

22 or did anybody even think of acting against the law, unlawfully, against

23 terrorism.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you please define for me

2 whether something which is anti-terrorist operation, termed anti-terrorist

3 operation for the police or any other state organ is contrary to the law,

4 unlawful, for Mr. Nice to be able to carry on wasting time in this way?

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, that's a comment, really. That's

6 a comment.

7 MR. NICE:

8 Q. Can we now turn in the English to -- yes. I mean, what was the --

9 how long did you expect the bombing to last, Mr. Stevanovic, all of you?

10 A. I can't really say, to be quite frank. I expected -- I didn't

11 expect there would be any bombing, despite all the assertions that there

12 would be. My evaluation and estimations were wrong, if you want my

13 personal opinion.

14 Q. I'm going to inquire. Was the position that you expected the

15 bombing period to be short but nevertheless a period where you could have

16 your way with the Kosovo Albanians, blaming what was necessary on the

17 bombing?

18 A. Absolutely not. That observation is simply not correct. If there

19 were bombing at the time people thought that it was necessary to undertake

20 more serious -- more serious measures against terrorism, because then it

21 would be quite clear that the terrorists would take the side of the

22 aggressor. So because of that, it was logical that by engaging additional

23 forces more decisive action against terrorism should be taken. And

24 everything that I spoke of earlier on was a tolerance of terrorism despite

25 the fact that we were dealing with terrorism to avoid conflicts and so on.

1 So we were tolerant. But if the bombing were to start, then the situation

2 was clear: We had to enter into an uncompromised struggle against

3 terrorism in Kosovo because it was quite obvious that the terrorists were

4 ground -- NATO ground forces.

5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... people didn't know what to do

6 and that all the problems that they were facing led to their moving out of

7 the country. Is that your -- is that your account for the population

8 movement still?

9 A. I said exactly what it was. Yes, I did say that and I claim that

10 now, and I went on to explain the situation that we were facing when the

11 NATO bombing started, and nobody could even have assumed what that would

12 be like. And what I said before that relates to the period before the

13 bombing and weighing up the situation as to what would happen if the

14 bombing actually went ahead, but nobody could have envisaged that it would

15 be such horror, such terror, such panic and such general chaos. So it's

16 one thing what we assessed and thought would happen and it's quite another

17 what did actually happen.

18 Q. Let's see what did actually happen. At page 94 in your diary,

19 which you can find on page R0172437, I should think.

20 MR. NICE: If we could have that on the overhead projector. Thank

21 you.

22 Q. This is a meeting sometime, probably the 3rd of May or thereabouts

23 but before the 4th of May. Have you found the entry?

24 A. 437, are they the last three digits?

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 437 shows the date the 24th. ERN

1 number 437 being the last digits.

2 MR. NICE:

3 Q. You see the entry -- well, if the Court -- if the Court would

4 come back one page, then, to page 93, and we see --

5 Do you see an entry that begins on page 74 in handwriting, with

6 the printed number 2438? Do you have that page?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. All right. This is a meeting. We'll look maybe in due course at

9 item 3, which says, "Clearing up the terrain," but just go over to item 4

10 and then we are back where we were, Mr. Prendergast. "Results of the

11 operations:

12 "Last remaining large groups broken up.

13 "About 2.000 liquidated - many more than previously in a single

14 operation.

15 "Left the country - 900.000.

16 "Terrorists remaining - 1.000.

17 "Civilians remaining - 300.000."

18 Was that a satisfactory result for those of you who were

19 supervising this campaign, to have got rid of 900.000 people?

20 A. I very often have to say that your observations are not correct.

21 I apologise, but I have to do that, because you very often have incorrect

22 statements and observations.

23 Now, here it is obvious that either through some fault or

24 something else the wrong term was used, or perhaps a term was used to

25 bring together several terms and facts that couldn't be brought under that

1 heading.

2 So 900.000, let me say first of all, is a figure that I've never

3 seen. My information says 800.000. 900.000, I can't believe that that

4 figure is written down there. So we're talking about the consequences of

5 everything that happened, not the result. A result would imply that that

6 was the goal.

7 Now, to break up remaining terrorists groups, that could be a

8 result because it was a component part of the plan, to break them up. The

9 liquidation of terrorist groups, conditionally speaking, can also be

10 considered to be a component part of the plan, but this idea of 900.000

11 people leaving the country, that is not a result and not the result of the

12 plan, just as terrorists remaining is not a result.

13 Q. It's your handwriting, you see?

14 A. Now, what does "residents" mean, this heading residents? Yes,

15 that's true, it would appear that this is my handwriting throughout the

16 diary. It is. That is incontestable. But with the reservations that I

17 have made and the provisos I have made with respect to my diary, and you

18 know what they were. I don't want to have to repeat it and go back into

19 private session to do so.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's not clear to me what these statistics relate

21 to. Do they relate to a single operation, over what area, and over what

22 period of time?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, if you ask me -- if

24 you're asking me, Your Honour -- are you asking me?

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: If you can help, yes.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, taking into account

2 my reservations, I don't see the date here, I don't see what meeting we're

3 talking about, I can't see whether it was my opinion or whether it was

4 just my note, my jotting down of some information given by someone else.

5 So it is difficult for me to state my views, but as to point 4 itself,

6 I've already stated that there are several theses and ideas that can't be

7 placed under one heading, quite obviously.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: It's plainly sometime around the beginning of May.

9 The next entry is the 4th of May and there's an earlier one the 29th of

10 April. You accept that it's your handwriting, do you?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In principle I do accept that.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you saying any part of it is not in your

13 handwriting? Let's be clear about that first of all.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. And I explained that earlier

15 on. I can't find the passages. I'd need time to do that, but in the

16 diary --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, no. But in this passage is part of it not

18 in your handwriting?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't state my views. It would

20 appear to be all in my handwriting. That's what it looks like.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: So you wrote -- you wrote 900.000. You wrote about

22 2.000 liquidated; and you wrote civilians remaining, 300.000; is that

23 correct?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most probably that is correct.

25 Unless some -- there was some abuse.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Even to that question about your handwriting you

2 can't give a simple yes or no answer.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot because of the fact, Your

4 Honour, that I explained in closed session, in private session.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand that you may be able to identify parts

6 of your diary which -- for which you're not responsible, but what you say

7 about this is "most probably." Now, what is it about these entries that

8 makes you have any doubt whatsoever that they are yours?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I'll explain that, and that's

10 the most important point. I have been led to doubt this figure of

11 900.000. I was never aware of that particular figure. 800.000, yes --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Did you write the 9 or did you not write the 9?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I say, I most probably did

14 because the handwriting resembles my own.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not actually questioning the

17 authenticity of the handwriting.

18 MR. NICE:

19 Q. Mr. Stevanovic, you know, because you were there on a daily basis,

20 that there was planned, supervised, forced expulsion of Kosovo Albanians

21 against whom allegations of KLA involvement could never be made. You know

22 that, don't you?

23 A. I do not know that, and that is not correct.

24 Q. You know that the Serbs in Kosovo, under cover of the bombing,

25 took the opportunity to kick out as many Kosovo Albanians as they did, and

1 900.000, or you recorded as 800.000 at another place in your notebook, was

2 a pretty successful result and not one about which you were remotely

3 unhappy.

4 A. Both observations are incorrect. First of all, this consequence

5 did make me unhappy. And the previous statement is incorrect. It is

6 especially incorrect when you say that the Serbs expelled the Albanians.

7 What does that mean, the Serbs? It would appear that the citizens

8 expelled them.

9 Q. Well, let me give you some examples from the considerable quantity

10 of evidence that we've had in this court from a witness whose 92 bis

11 statement is Exhibit 108. You police told residents to leave within five

12 minutes at Suva Reka, burning houses and shooting at people. Now, can you

13 say that's false? Do you allow it to be true? What's your position as

14 the senior representative of the police there on the territory?

15 A. I have also explained that fact a number of times already.

16 Official policies, official plan and positions, element of the plan to

17 suppress terrorism was to protect the citizens independent of their ethnic

18 -- ethnicity. All anti-terrorist action was directed exclusively against

19 terrorists. All the other citizens were the object or, rather, the

20 subject of protection on the part of the security forces in Kosovo

21 overall. And of course people did die, both Albanians and Serbs and

22 policemen and terrorists and soldiers and of course --

23 Q. I'm going to cut you short and I'm going to suggest that some of

24 your long answers are designed to consume time and if you'd be good

25 enough, please respond to my questions.

1 I'll name you another person and then I'll ask you another

2 question. A witness called Osman Kuci, whose statement was exhibited as

3 Exhibit 109, in Suva Reka spoke of your police - and I'm going to call

4 them "your police" - telling witnesses to leave within five minutes or to

5 be killed.

6 Can you say anything? Can you say that that man's account is

7 wrong?

8 A. I of course am not going to say that his account is wrong but

9 quite possibly -- and quite possibly his account is truthful and exact.

10 But then I say that that is a case that --

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: You must let him finish, Mr. Nice.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- was outside control, was beyond

13 control.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let him finish.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And of course I'm not ashamed of my

16 police. On the contrary, I am proud of my police. But not the police

17 that perpetrated this. The policemen who perpetrated this perpetrated a

18 crime, and anybody who committed a crime like that deserves to be punished

19 and to be put in prison, so I would like to warn you of not going into

20 generalisations.

21 MR. NICE:

22 Q. Exactly, Mr. Stevanovic. Now, will you please, in this mass of

23 material you've brought -- no. I'll preface this with one other question.

24 You are aware, of course, not only that allegations about ethnic cleansing

25 by your police have been made in this Court but they have been recorded

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1 since 1999 -- been recorded in detail since 1999 in researched books like

2 "Under Orders" of Human Rights Watch, or "As Seen, As Told" volume 1 by

3 OSCE. You know about that, and I want you to tell us, please, now, where

4 in these volumes of material that you've brought we can find one evidenced

5 investigation by your police, by your justice department, of somebody

6 charged with ethnic cleansing, with forcing somebody out of Kosovo. Where

7 can we find it?

8 A. I really can't help you out there where we can find it, but I did

9 give a number of examples in which the perpetrator of a crime was a

10 policeman, the policeman was apprehended, and legal steps taken. And bear

11 in mind that we left Kosovo and Metohija at the very end of the war and

12 that it was impossible for us to carry on investigations there. So rest

13 assured that had we been able to do so, a large number of policemen and

14 soldiers and citizens would have been investigated, prosecuted probably,

15 and even convicted if there was time for that too. But the fact that we

16 were no longer there, that we are no longer there, that we left when the

17 war ended did not give us the opportunity of continuing our investigations

18 on the basis of the documents that I brought in here and on the basis of

19 just as many thousand documents in the MUP. And those investigations can

20 be continued today, too, on the basis of the documents compiled by my

21 police, as you called it.

22 Q. I'll have a word to say about the prosecutions, such as they were,

23 that have been brought by the MUP of Serbia in respect of this war later,

24 but please now help me with this: Are you saying that there has been at

25 any stage an investigation, a thoroughgoing investigation by the Serb

1 authorities into ethnic cleansing in Kosovo? And, if so, can I see it?

2 A. With respect to ethnic cleansing, as you term it in general terms,

3 of course the concept is clear, but I can't state my views. I don't think

4 it was. But about all specific events where the elements of a crime were

5 uncovered, an investigation was started, there were documents compiled,

6 and they are in place for a continuation of the investigation.

7 Q. Can we look at page 86 of your book, which is R0172432. This is

8 for the 24th of April.

9 Bottom of the page, please, Mr. Prendergast.

10 Reference to treatment of civilians who are returning, but then a

11 reference to refugee columns. "Security.

12 "Discretionary checks of persons, vehicles and cargo.

13 "Going out over the border - not en masse.

14 "Suspicious ones should be detained, processed, kept, arrested,"

15 and that's it. The rest should be let go, shouldn't they? It is your

16 handwriting, isn't it?

17 A. Yes, just give me a moment to see where it says that.

18 Q. Under item 2.

19 A. Columns, refugees, then it says "Security." That's the first

20 point.

21 Q. And then it says --

22 A. "Discretionary checks of persons, vehicles, and cargo." Probably

23 belongings.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's just make one thing clear,

25 Mr. Robinson. Mr. Nice read out the word "security," and in your

1 transcript it said "security," whereas here in his official or, rather,

2 working notes, it says "secure," "secure," which is different. To -- to

3 -- [In English] to be secure. It can be translated that way.

4 [Interpretation] In the sense of an assignment. He's writing down his

5 assignment and to provide -- to make secure, when it says columns, refugee

6 columns.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Milosevic.

8 MR. NICE:

9 Q. Can I have your answer to my question about the entry on page --

10 A. I apologise but I've either forgotten what the question was or I

11 wasn't listening attentively enough because I was listening and reading at

12 the same time.

13 Q. The fourth bullet point, "Suspicious ones should be detained,

14 processed, kept, and arrested." And I asked you what should happen to the

15 rest? They should be let go, shouldn't they? That was what you--

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. You wanted them out of your country. No reference here to

18 counselling them to return, no reference here to saying advise them of

19 security. No, just let them go.

20 A. Possibly. It does not say it here, Mr. Prosecutor, but I'm sure

21 it does say so somewhere. And here I have just noted down several points

22 which were topical at the time. So it's probably about a point in time

23 when it was impossible to prevent anybody from going there, or leaving, as

24 I have explained a number of times already.

25 Not to incite them to leave, for civilians to leave. Of course.

1 In the first point we can see that the objective is that the columns

2 should be provided security, should be made secure.

3 Q. And can you help us with this, then: There's a great deal of

4 evidence been given about organised, orchestrated passage out of Kosovo by

5 trains and on buses supervised by the police. If you didn't want them to

6 go, why were you arranging for them to leave?

7 A. Please, it is quite certain that the police did not organise their

8 departure. The police did everything for them not to go, but they did not

9 use force to make them go. I know very well that the organs of local

10 self-government, transport companies, I mean even the police and army were

11 under enormous pressure from citizens to have buses, trains, and other

12 vehicles put at their disposal so they could leave and cross the border.

13 Nobody organised this or used force to make people leave. With reference

14 to transport, we can only speak of enormous pressure on everyone concerned

15 to make available vehicles for them to leave in.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. It's time for the break. We will adjourn

17 for 20 minutes.

18 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.

21 MR. NICE:

22 Q. Mr. Stevanovic, although I'll turn to this as a separate topic

23 later, two questions about your alleged inability to investigate crimes

24 committed in Kosovo. Can you point me to any investigations of Serbs

25 forcibly displacing Kosovo Albanians in 1998?

1 A. I cannot recall any specific events in connection with this, and I

2 do not know to what Serbs you are referring.

3 Q. Okay. Maybe it's your position, and by all means state it if this

4 is so, that there were no crimes committed by Serbs in 1998. Is that your

5 position? If so, we'll move on.

6 A. It's not my position that the Serbs did not commit any crimes in

7 Kosovo. From the statistics I brought with me, one can see how many

8 crimes were committed in what period and what action was taken in

9 connection with these crimes.

10 Q. Second thing, just look at these documents. They're not exhibits.

11 I don't particularly ask them to be exhibits either.

12 The first document -- cast your eyes quickly when you get it,

13 firstly over the 1999 document. Do you see the 1999 document? And I want

14 to deal with this quickly. You see the 1999 document is a 30th of April,

15 1999 request to carry out an investigation of soldiers suspected of

16 obtaining property from entering the houses of Serbs, indeed. Take a look

17 at that.

18 And if we look at the 2002 document, "In the name of the people,"

19 we find that in 2002 this is the same investigation against the same

20 people being continued, right through to verdict and sentence.

21 A. Do you expect me to provide an answer of some sort?

22 Q. First of all, is that what the documents show? And then the

23 question: Is that what the documents show? They show process begun in

24 April 1999, concluded in 2002 in Nis?

25 A. Of course this is the first time I've seen both these documents.

1 One is a request that an investigation be conducted by the military

2 prosecutor, and the other one is a judgement by the military court in Nis.

3 These are military judiciary organs of the army of the then Yugoslavia,

4 and they have nothing to do with the police of Serbia. However, I will

5 answer your question, whatever it may be.

6 Q. My general question is this, and we can look at other documents if

7 I have time, which I doubt: In exile, or however you describe your

8 position after June of 1999, but away from Kosovo, you had the potential

9 to proceed with investigations and take them to conclusions if you wanted

10 to. You the police, the justice department, and everyone else. Isn't at

11 that right?

12 A. Some proceedings could, of course, be taken to conclusions. Some

13 were ongoing, and some could not be carried any further.

14 Q. But nothing of any significance at all was started in respect of

15 offences committed against Kosovo Albanians until after the fall of this

16 accused from power in 2000, and even then only a very small amount; isn't

17 that true?

18 A. I am certain that a large number of criminal reports were

19 delivered to the competent prosecutors' offices while the police units

20 were still in Kosovo. I know that proceedings were initiated at the time.

21 These were continued. I really cannot say whether the speeding up or

22 slowing down of a proceeding has anything to do with a change in

23 government, but I do assert that all proceedings, whatever organ was in

24 charge of them, were conducted pursuant to documents compiled by the

25 police while they were still in Kosovo and Metohija. Of course,

1 particular cases grew if they continued to be investigated, but --

2 Q. All right. I'm going to have to cut you short. But my question

3 to you is this: The reason there was either no or almost no prosecution

4 is because what was done on the territory of Kosovo by your police was

5 done in pursuit of the objectives of your leader, the accused, and you

6 couldn't possibly prosecute people when they'd been doing what you wanted

7 them to do. Isn't that the truth?

8 A. No. The police in no way carried out any tasks in accordance with

9 the wishes of any leader, as you say, but in compliance with the law. You

10 must bear in mind that policemen in Kosovo were also victims. 400

11 policemen were killed carrying out these tasks and several thousand were

12 injured.

13 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... a very senior person are

14 deeply implicated in all this, as is revealed by what you did to cover up

15 the crimes. That's my suggestion to you, and to make it good we'll now

16 look at the next exhibit, 283A, please.

17 A man called Karleusa conducted an inquiry into the way the bodies

18 of innocent victims moved from Kosovo to Serbia. He offered you an

19 opportunity of talking to him. Did you decline?

20 A. No, it's not correct that I declined. I did talk to him.

21 Q. Did you make a full statement and give a full account of what

22 you'd done in this matter, or not?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. Can you tell --

25 A. With respect to the things he asked me about.

1 Q. I'll try and find it. I may not succeed today, but I'll try my

2 best. This, on the other hand, is a statement made by Mr. Rade Markovic,

3 Radomir or Rade Markovic. Just remind us, where is he now at the moment?

4 A. As far as I know, Radomir Markovic is in detention, in custody in

5 Belgrade.

6 Q. For what crime?

7 A. I don't know that.

8 Q. Stambolic -- you don't know?

9 A. No, I really don't know for what crime he is in detention.

10 Q. You don't know for what murder he's in detention. That's really

11 your case, is it? Not your case, your answer. Something sensational --

12 A. I don't know. I really don't know for what crime he's in custody.

13 He has been linked to more than one crime, but I have not seen the

14 indictment or, rather, the request for an investigation.

15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... this is the statement he

16 made, and we'll place it on the overhead -- it is on the overhead

17 projector and let's just remind ourselves of what he said.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wish to remind you, both you and

21 Mr. Kwon, who were here while Judge May was the Presiding Judge, this is a

22 statement brought by Karleusa. Radomir Markovic testified after Karleusa,

23 the person whose statement this is. It's all in the transcript. And he

24 said very clearly that this was not his statement or, rather, that this is

25 not what he said. Therefore, I fail to understand how Mr. Nice can use

1 this document now in this way, because Radomir Markovic said here under

2 oath that this was not his statement, and the statement was actually

3 brought here by Karleusa.

4 MR. NICE: The evidence, as the Court will recall, is that

5 whatever the former police chief said about his ability to be persuaded to

6 sign a document that was not an accurate reflection of what he had said,

7 following the witnesses, namely the signatories, were also -- the

8 co-signatories of the document were called to give an account of the

9 circumstances in which the statement was made and --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 MR. NICE: -- and it will be for the Court in due course to decide

12 where the truth lies. I'm seeking from this witness a comment on the

13 accuracy of what he's going to find.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us consider that.

15 JUDGE KWON: What I remember is that Mr. Markovic said this might

16 be subject to liberal interpretation.

17 MR. NICE: That's right, yes.

18 JUDGE KWON: So --

19 MR. NICE: He didn't say it wasn't his statement.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Proceed, Mr. Nice.

22 MR. NICE: Thank you very much.

23 Q. If you follow with me from a few lines down, where he says:

24 "... I know that in March 1999 --" it's about four lines down -- "a

25 working meeting was held around a long table used for working meetings in

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1 the library on the ground floor of the White Palace where Slobodan

2 Milosevic most frequently held meetings. Stojiljkovic, Djordjevic, chief

3 of the public security department, and I attended this meeting. This

4 meeting was most likely devoted to the issue of Kosovo, and in addition to

5 those listed was probably attended by representatives of the VJ, although

6 I cannot say that for certain. Beyond the main topic of the meeting, at

7 its very end, Djordjevic raised the problem of removing Albanian bodies to

8 remove all possible civilian victims who could become the subject of an

9 investigation by The Hague Tribunal. Milosevic ordered Stojiljkovic to

10 undertake the measures necessary to remove the bodies of the Albanian

11 civilians who had already been buried. I personally did not get involved

12 in the conversation on this topic since none of the orders was directed at

13 me. I know that Stojiljkovic appointed General Ilic to implement this

14 task and that the latter then went with specific team of collaborators to

15 the Kosovo-Metohija area. I personally did not want to allow the RDB to

16 get involved in this morbid tale of later disinterment and removal the

17 bodies so, as far as I know, it was the RJB and members of the VJ that

18 participated in this."

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Time for a question now, Mr. Nice.

20 MR. NICE: Yes. It's the next sentence, as you'll see, where the

21 name becomes relevant, with Your Honours' leave.

22 Q. "Stojiljkovic issued the order to implement these measures

23 directly to Ilic and Djordjevic. In addition to them, Obrad Stevanovic,

24 Ilic, Djuric, Sreten Lukic, Dragisa Dinic, and probably all the members of

25 the MUP collegium at the time also know of the order."

1 Djordjevic was your superior at the time, yes?

2 A. Yes. Djordjevic was the chief of the public security sector at

3 the time.

4 Q. And just to deal with a small historical point, Djordjevic you

5 will have seen on the Kula camp ceremony video. Do you remember he

6 attended that in 1997? Just yes or no.

7 A. Yes, I think I saw him on the video yesterday.

8 Q. Djordjevic was a willing participant in this process of removal of

9 bodies?

10 A. First let me say that everything that has been read out here as

11 Rade Markovic's statement is untrue. There is absolutely no meeting which

12 I attended and where such an idea was mentioned or anything similar to it.

13 Q. It doesn't necessarily say you attended the meeting. It says,

14 however, that you would have known of the order. Did you know of this

15 accused's order to have the bodies removed?

16 A. Absolutely not.

17 Q. Just remind us again: What's your explanation for the removal of

18 bodies from Kosovo to North Serbia?

19 A. I said that I have no knowledge about this whatsoever except for

20 what I read in the media after the war, and at the time I did not believe

21 it to be true. I can now say that I do believe it's true, but I have no

22 explanation as to who could have done this and for what purpose.

23 Q. Forgive me if I misinterpreted you, but when you first gave that

24 answer to the accused were you seeking to suggest that in some -- in some

25 way NATO or other occupiers of the territory may have been involved in the

1 movement of bodies? That seemed to be what you were suggesting.

2 A. I said this as an assumption in response to a question. If I say

3 that there is no logical explanation for such an action when what happened

4 is connected with the official policies and the official behaviour of the

5 state and the police, then it can simply be seen as incredible. And what

6 I said was just an assumption. I said that it was probably done by

7 someone who did not want to conceal the crime but, rather, to prove there

8 was a crime and to ascribe it to the state.

9 Q. Help me further, because this is very -- obviously very important.

10 How could NATO, the UN, or any other country have access to

11 Serb-controlled areas of military significance in North Serbia so as to

12 deposit bodies there? It's something we'll want your help with.

13 A. First of all, I did not say that it was done by NATO. I said it

14 was done by someone who in my opinion might have had such a goal. That

15 someone could be in Serbia, outside Serbia, in the police, outside the

16 police, and so on.

17 Q. Let's follow the workings of your mind and your imagination and

18 your creative calculation. Who, and then how, but first who do you say

19 may have moved these bodies to Serbia? Serbia's not been under foreign

20 control, remind us. Who moved them to Serbia?

21 A. I didn't say who specifically. I said someone who would have such

22 a goal. Anything else would involve too much imagination, and you

23 yourself said we should not speculate.

24 Q. Is this a serious answer, Mr. Stevanovic, a serious answer that

25 you're saying someone unknown may have taken all these bodies that come

1 from Izbica and all sorts of other places, moved them to places that are

2 in the secure control of the Serb authorities with vehicles, dig the

3 holes, and put them in it? Are you really suggesting that?

4 A. I said that was my assumption. I have no reasonable explanation

5 for it. You had one assumption, I put forward another possible

6 assumption. There are many other assumptions that might be put forward.

7 Q. The answer -- the truth is this, and I might as well put it now,

8 I'm going to put it at some stage: Throughout your evidence you've been

9 prepared to say anything to avoid a reliable and accurate implication

10 against this accused falling on him, haven't you?

11 A. That's not correct.

12 Q. My suggestion to you: You've been prepared to lie and to make

13 things up in order to avoid the truth emerging from your lips.

14 A. That is not correct.

15 Q. Let's look a little bit further, then, on this statement. Lukic,

16 Dinic and probably all members of the -- knew of the order. In informal

17 conversations held before the collegium, and at working meetings, there

18 was frequent mention of so-called restoring of the terrain in Kosovo and

19 Metohija. Next sentence: "I know that Dragan Ilic was not satisfied with

20 the activities implemented by the MUP in this area, because of which he

21 complained to me on several occasions of the difficulty of the job he was

22 doing, his lack of preparation for such horrors, and the resistance he was

23 meeting in the field from people who were supposed to assist in revealing

24 the locations of bodies of Albanian civilians. In this context, Ilic told

25 me that MUP Colonel Radosavljevic had offered him significant assistance

1 in this job ..."

2 Pausing there. First, Radosavljevic is the man we know about who

3 led the attack at Racak; correct?

4 A. I know that he participated in that action, but I don't know

5 whether he actually led the attack. Well, it wasn't an attack, certainly,

6 it was just an operation. I assume that he did lead it. I seem to recall

7 some information from some media, but I can't be sure about it. I am sure

8 he participated and made some sort of statement.

9 Q. Remember my earlier suggestion to you that you're taking time

10 deliberately. Please keep answers short where they can be.

11 Is what is said by the -- about the MUP here being involved --

12 A. Excuse me. That is not my intention, really.

13 Q. Is it what --

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: And I agree, Mr. Nice. I think that's an

15 unfounded -- there's no foundation for that.

16 MR. NICE:

17 Q. Is what is said about the MUP's involvement here true, false, or

18 may it be true?

19 A. You must focus your question on a specific part of the text,

20 otherwise I don't know what to reply, what my reply should be about.

21 Q. Yes. I've read that they weren't satisfied with the activities of

22 the MUP but they got significant help from Radosavljevic. Is that true,

23 false, or may it be true?

24 A. I really cannot concentrate enough. I cannot focus enough. I

25 don't know what you're referring to. I assume you're referring to what

1 was allegedly said by Dragan Ilic, that he had problems in Kosovo and that

2 Goran Radosavljevic helped him.

3 Q. Very well. Let's look the another document if you find my

4 questions about it not helpful. We'll move then, please, to --

5 A. I can respond, of course, but I really wasn't focusing. I don't

6 know what you mean. I offered you a response about what Dragan Ilic

7 allegedly said.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, if you wish to reformulate the

9 question, then you should. Or if you wish to move on --

10 MR. NICE: I'm going to move on because of time.

11 Q. Page 100 of the diary in English, please, which is 0172446 for

12 you.

13 Have you found that page?

14 A. Not yet, unfortunately.

15 Yes, I have found it. 446 are the last three numbers.

16 Q. Now, this is part of an entry. You can -- keeping your finger in

17 that page, you might go back to find what you say is the relevant date for

18 this page but it's sometime after the 21st of May, on or after the 21st of

19 May. Is it your handwriting?

20 A. Yes, this is my handwriting, obviously.

21 Q. A few entries we might like to look at on this page. "Urgent end

22 to burning and looting." Whose burning and looting was that you were

23 writing about? Ten lines down. Sorry to interrupt you. Whose burning

24 and looting?

25 A. This point does not refer to anyone specifically but simply to

1 putting a stop to the occurrence of burning and looting regardless of who

2 was doing it. It cannot apply selectively to certain categories of

3 perpetrators.

4 Q. Was it the MUP, was it the VJ, or was it some third body that we

5 haven't heard about? Who was it?

6 A. Such things evidently occurred. The police can be ordered to

7 prevent it through various forms of activity regardless of who the

8 perpetrators were. The perpetrators could be civilians, policemen,

9 soldiers, terrorists, whoever. However, this simply means that additional

10 efforts should be made to put a stop to these occurrences.

11 Q. Then let's look at the next three lines on. It reads as follows:

12 "Remove traces of violence against civilians," and then there's something

13 that's not decipherable by us. What's meant by "Remove traces of violence

14 against civilians?"

15 A. It's a bit odd here. It says here "Roads." It's probably traces

16 of violence in connection with civilians. It has to do with clearing up

17 streets and roads, making streets and roads passable. And the

18 abbreviation should be civil protection, civilian protection staffs.

19 Q. So, what sort of --

20 A. Excuse me. Excuse me, please. This is why I'm concerned and have

21 reservations. Had I put this away, it would really have been a problem.

22 It says here "Remove traces of violence against property." It

23 doesn't say against civilians. I'm trying to be brief in my replies and

24 not to study the documents in too much detail, but here it says clearly,

25 "Remove traces of violence against property." So this means rubble

1 blocking roads and streets. You said civilians and I accepted what you

2 said.

3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... please be good enough, and

4 we'll just follow it in the -- in the original --

5 A. I apologise.

6 Q. If there's a translation error, please just read the entry and

7 we'll hear it translated.

8 A. It says quite clearly: "Remove traces of violence against

9 property."

10 Q. We'll make that amendment if that's just --

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: So for "civilians" it should read "property."

12 MR. NICE: Yes.

13 Q. Let's --

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may suggest one thing. The

17 Serbian version should be placed on the overhead projector so that those

18 who follow can see for themselves what is written because this is written

19 in Cyrillic. The letter C in Cyrillic is similar to your letter Y, with a

20 long dash at the bottom, and it is clear that what is written here is

21 "property." What we should put on the ELMO is the Serbian version, not

22 the English translation, which is incorrect. And I'm not suggesting that

23 it is intentionally incorrect, but still.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: I believe this matter has been satisfactorily

25 settled, Mr. Milosevic. We accept that the word should be "property" and

1 not "civilians."

2 MR. NICE: Move on, shall we, to page 106 in the English which is

3 R0172451. And if Ms. Dicklich can find that as well, and if

4 Mr. Prendergast is able to assist us, can we have both 106, and if

5 Ms. Dicklich can hand the -- point the relevant passage to

6 Mr. Prendergast, we may be able to squeeze both onto the overhead

7 projector at the same time. See if you can accommodate both at the same

8 time.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is the underlined word -- words going to be the

10 subject of your questions?

11 MR. NICE: No, not particularly. All of them are, but -- I see

12 what Your Honour's point -- no.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Because in that case I would have it placed on

14 the ELMO so we have the Serbian.

15 MR. NICE: That, I think, probably does the trick. Thank you very

16 much, Mr. Prendergast.

17 Q. This entry begins with a reference -- first of all, your

18 handwriting?

19 A. Yes. This, too, is my handwriting.

20 Q. The reference to "the president" at the top right-hand corner --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. -- what does --

23 A. The word "president" is written there.

24 Q. And who were you speaking about?

25 A. Well, I'm not sure which president this is a reference to. It

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1 could be the president of Serbia, the President of the FRY, the president

2 of the government, in other words the Prime Minister. It could be

3 President Milosevic or President Milutinovic. I don't know if there is

4 anything --

5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... with both?

6 A. No. I attended meetings where both presidents were present.

7 Q. If this is to do with the removal of bodies from the territory, if

8 it is, which president would it be?

9 A. That has nothing to do with which president was present, and

10 whether there was any talk about the removal of bodies I don't know.

11 Q. Well, let's look at the content and see if that's going to trigger

12 a recollection of what this meeting was. Does the first entry read - and

13 we have both on the overhead projector - "No corpse, no crime"?

14 A. Yes, that's exactly what it says.

15 Q. It's your handwriting. Read, please, the next line for us.

16 A. "Back-breaking work on --" I can't make out the last word.

17 Q. Could it be that -- that question?

18 A. "On that issue."

19 Q. "Issue." Very well. Can you read us the next line, please.

20 A. "They will use evidence on crimes to justify aggression."

21 Q. Thank you. Next line.

22 A. The next line is "Clearing up."

23 Q. The next line.

24 A. I think what it says is: "Simultaneous clearing up of

25 territories."

1 Q. Next line.

2 A. I can't make it out.

3 Q. Try. "When the mission arrives --" carry on.

4 A. I can't make it out. That's the problem. I can see that the last

5 word is "mission."

6 Q. There's a phrase in there about --

7 A. "When the mission arrives," approximately, but I don't know what

8 the third word is.

9 Q. And then?

10 A. "Clearing up the terrain the most important."

11 Q. No. Stick on the line where you were about when the mission

12 arrives. The word "difficult" or "more difficult" appears there, doesn't

13 it?

14 A. It doesn't say "more difficult." Maybe the first word is "more

15 difficult."

16 Q. Then --

17 A. "We will find it more difficult to --" I don't know what it says.

18 Q. "We will find it more difficult to," is a possible interpretation.

19 Well --

20 A. Possible.

21 Q. Now, what was the setting for this entry? You were sitting there

22 with one of the presidents, were you? May we take that to be the case?

23 A. Whether I did or didn't, I really cannot determine from this. It

24 really says "President," and it is probably a reference to a meeting at a

25 president's office.

1 Q. Now, you tell me, please, what that phrase "No corpse, no crime"

2 means.

3 A. I think I have explained this during my interview in Belgrade. At

4 that meeting, I don't know precisely which meeting that was but I do have

5 a vague memory, one of the representatives of the security forces, whether

6 it was the military or the civilian security, I don't know, warned against

7 perfidious action by terrorists, namely that they are removing the corpses

8 of their victims and the casualties of anti-terrorist actions only to

9 gather them again later and place them in mass graves in order to blame

10 these mass graves later on Serbian forces.

11 Q. Is this really your account for this entry? They're speaking here

12 -- the president is speaking here, is he, about the perfidious actions of

13 terrorists?

14 A. No. That's absolutely not the president speaking. The word

15 "President" can mean that the meeting took place at his office, and that's

16 probably what it means. I do have a vague recollection of that.

17 Q. I see. What, in his personal office, was it? Without him

18 present, I suppose.

19 A. No. That's not what I'm saying. If the meeting is at a

20 president's office, he is of course present, together with all those

21 attending the meeting.

22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... bush. As is said, the

23 president here is this accused.

24 A. That's something I can accept.

25 Q. You can or cannot accept?

1 A. I can accept.

2 Q. Now, let's look at the next line. "Back-breaking work on that

3 issue." If anyone was talking about the removal of bodies by the KLA in

4 their own interests, why on earth write "Back-breaking work"?

5 A. "Back-breaking work" cannot be ascribed to anyone other than

6 those working against you. The word used, "mucki."

7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: The other meaning of this

8 word is "perfidious," primary meaning is "perfidious."

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That indicates that it is a

10 reference to somebody who is jeopardising you in a perfidious way. You

11 will notice that in all descriptions of terrorist actions the formulation

12 "perfidious attack" is used. So this is a word most frequently used with

13 reference to terrorists and their activity.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: The interpreters said the other meaning of the

15 word is "perfidious."

16 MR. NICE: They did?

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: "Perfidious," not "back-breaking."

18 THE INTERPRETER: Correct.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: And I notice the witness's answers have been

20 consistent with that interpretation.

21 MR. NICE:

22 Q. Moving to the next line --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you want to say something, Mr. Milosevic?

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wanted to draw your attention,

25 Mr. Robinson. I don't know English as well as your interpreters do, and I

1 don't know the term back-breaking, but for me the word "mucki" in Serbian,

2 which is a very heavy term, should be most of all translated as

3 "perfidious." It is something underhand, perfidious, absolutely

4 negative. It is not something you would use speaking of activities of

5 your own side. You would use it to describe activities and dirty work of

6 the other side, of your enemy.

7 Everybody who knows Serbian would understand this. And from this

8 -- this original, when we say "mucki rad," we cannot -- we shouldn't

9 understand that as difficult work.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: At the end of this exercise, Mr. Milosevic, you

11 may be a qualified interpreter, but what you have said is consistent with

12 what the interpreters said, that "perfidious" is the translation.

13 Are the interpreters saying that "perfidious" is the better

14 translation or that it is the -- the primary translation, or what is it?

15 MR. NICE: My understanding from the interpreters was that it was

16 the primary meaning. They didn't, as I understood it, exclude the

17 alternative second meaning. I think they are reluctant, and

18 understandably so, to turn themselves into expert witnesses in the booths.

19 We'll clarify the matter a little further, working on the basis of

20 "perfidious" for the time being.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's --

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't see that they're acting as witnesses at

23 all.

24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter's explanation would be that in

25 combination with the word "work," it is inconsistent to translate this

1 term as "perfidious." You don't say "perfidious work," and people have

2 been known to use terms loosely, so we interpret this as "back-breaking

3 work." If it were combined with the word "attack," then it would be

4 indeed "perfidious attack," and that is how it is used most often.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

6 MR. NICE:

7 Q. I'm grateful to the interpreters, and we'll turn to the third

8 line, Mr. Stevanovic. "They will use evidence of crimes to justify

9 aggression." Who is the "they"?

10 A. This is a reference to terrorists, and in keeping with my previous

11 explanations, when the terrorists take away their victims and the dead,

12 those who got killed in anti-terrorist actions, to later bury them in mass

13 graves, they thereby create evidence of the alleged crimes of Serbian

14 forces. In this context, I would like to remind you of the alleged mass

15 grave in Pusto Selo and the alleged mass grave in Izbica.

16 This part of the estimate about their perfidious activity I indeed

17 found in the minutes of one of the sessions but I can't remember which.

18 Q. So the -- for me to understand your -- what you say is the

19 interpretation of this note made in May of 1999, is that the KLA killed

20 people, they take the bodies, having killed them, they find a mass grave,

21 they bury the mass grave -- they bury the bodies in the mass grave. They

22 then create evidence that it was actually the Serbs who killed these

23 people, who will presumably be Serbs they killed, it may be Albanians, and

24 in that way they then justify their continuing cycle of violence. Is that

25 what you're saying?

1 A. By using the media to show mass graves, combined with the

2 explanation that these mass graves contain innocent victims of Serbian

3 aggression or Serbian violence, they try to prove violent actions of the

4 Serbian forces in Kosovo. That is an explanation of their perfidious

5 activity with corpses. When we received those aerial photographs of Pusto

6 Selo, I believe that was before Izbica, we all noted that such an estimate

7 was correct.

8 Q. What do you mean "such an estimate was correct"?

9 A. That this estimate, according to which they will use alleged

10 evidence on our alleged crimes to justify the -- or explain the victims,

11 the casualties of anti-terrorist operations.

12 I can be more specific; that they would thereby justify our

13 theory, our estimate. They in fact proved that it's true even before we

14 found this mass grave in Pusto Selo.

15 Q. So far as Pusto Selo is concerned -- I'm so sorry.

16 Since you mentioned Pusto Selo, let me just lay on the overhead

17 projector, please, a page from Exhibit 106. It doesn't feature in the

18 indictment, but since you raise it, this is what a well-documented and

19 sourced account, further down, says of this event: "When the village was

20 shelled on or around the 29th of March, many of the villagers fled --"

21 forgive my discourtesy. I hadn't kept my eye on the Bench.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may continue.

23 MR. NICE:

24 Q. "When the village was shelled on or around the 29th of March, many

25 of the villagers fled towards Danjane/Dejne, while others remained behind.

1 One man who was in a wheelchair and took shelter just on the outskirts of

2 the village, and another man who was hiding in the mountains gave an

3 account of what happened.

4 "VJ and paramilitaries surrounded the village and gathered the

5 villagers into one place. They separated the women and children from the

6 men. The women and children were ordered away towards the road on foot.

7 There were more than 100 men left behind. After going through the

8 belongings of the men, the VJ and paramilitaries, in groups of 10, started

9 shooting into the group of men. Nine men survived the shooting and six

10 others were burned alive when they were set on a tractor, had petrol

11 poured over them, and were set on fire. A man who was in the woods said

12 that he heard shooting coming from the direction of Pusto Selo --" "A man

13 who was in the woods said that he heard shooting coming from the direction

14 of Pusto Selo --" I'm so sorry.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, we received a note from the

17 interpreters about the same word, "mucko," and I'm going to ask them to

18 explain -- explain it. Apparently they have checked the dictionary.

19 Would the interpreter explain the note which was sent, in the

20 interest of transparency.

21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that the note was handed

22 in by a French interpreter, so the French booth can perhaps explain.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Okay. One interpreter in the French booth

24 checked in the dictionary Serbian into French and found "mucko," which

25 means "perfidious" and only perfidious or perfidiously, and "mucno," which

1 means "with difficulty, arduously."

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: What was the word in the original B/C/S, "mucko"

3 or --

4 THE INTERPRETER: The original word in the document is "mucko,"

5 K-O.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: So does one take it, then, that the translation

7 should be "perfidious"?

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. Yes, Mr. Nice.

10 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm not sure where I left Your Honours,

11 but I've been reading out from the "As Seen, As Told" history of the

12 hundred men being shot, the surviving nine, the six who were burned alive

13 on the tractor, and then I come to: "The man who was in the woods said

14 that he heard shooting coming from the direction of Pusto Selo around the

15 same date and waited for three days before entering the village. Over 100

16 dead bodies were later found and buried by returning villagers. The

17 villagers had been shot and some completely burned while others were

18 partially burned."

19 Q. Now, Mr. Stevanovic, this, as you can see from the footnotes on

20 the document, even if you're not able to follow the English text, is a

21 sourced account of what happened at Pusto Selo. Explain to me why you say

22 that account is incorrect.

23 A. I can't explain this to you, of course, because I don't know about

24 an event like that nor did I have any information about an event that was

25 described in this way. I said that the first information of an alleged

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1 mass grave in Pusto Selo we received from the aerial photograph which is

2 here. I think we showed it on the overhead projector, in fact. So from

3 that knowledge, from that information, the police acted together with the

4 judicial organs, and you have three large binders about what the police

5 did, what steps it took after it was informed about this alleged mass

6 grave. And there you will find facts from the post-mortems for each

7 individual corpse that was found in the grave, and all of them, all the

8 bodies were buried afterwards in the corresponding graveyards in that

9 region.

10 And if I remember correctly, a certain number of people who were

11 found in the graves were not from Pusto Selo. However, I'm -- I don't

12 want to claim that but we can see it quite clearly here.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I'd like to draw your

14 attention to the fact that these are binders 13, 14, and 15 in the

15 exhibits which were attached to this witness's testimony, and they're all

16 documents that relate to Pusto Selo in fact.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Milosevic.

18 MR. NICE:

19 Q. Let's now go back to your diary and your entry on page 106 or the

20 other page that you've already got open to you.

21 This -- these entries, whatever the interpretation of the word

22 "perfidious" may add to it, these entries fit completely, don't they, with

23 the suggestion I put to you that there was a planned operation, and at

24 this time, to move bodies away from Kosovo before land occupation of the

25 territory would make it more difficult to hide the crimes.

1 A. These entries have absolutely nothing to do with transporting the

2 people killed from Kosovo in a northward direction to Serbia. These

3 entries have only something to do with the way in which the terrorists

4 acted, and that is where the word "mucki" was used.

5 Now, if you look at the rest of the documents, you will be able to

6 see, with the concept of terrorist activity, this adjective "mucki,"

7 "perfidious" or "treacherous" is used frequently to describe the way in

8 which they acted from an ambush.

9 Q. Just look at the last -- the second to last line. "When the

10 mission arrives, we will find it more difficult." More difficult to hide

11 things, or impossible.

12 A. That is absolutely not possible and doesn't have anything to do

13 with this, although I don't know which mission this refers to. I can't

14 explain that sentence, actually, because if it is a mission, then it can

15 be the Verification Mission and then the date doesn't correspond to that.

16 And here we can see, and perhaps it's important for me to tell you that, I

17 can't just find it just now, but had the date been the 21st, for example,

18 21st of May, then the 4th of April, then ten pages later you have the 20th

19 of May again. So there are some pages here that have been not put in the

20 order they exist in the original, so I'm not quite certain now what period

21 of time the text was written; whether it was written during the war,

22 before the war, I really can't say. Because this notion of "mission"

23 isn't clear to me. I used it usually to denote Verification Mission. I

24 don't know how else I could have used the word "mission," to denote what

25 else.

1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, date is a bit confusing. Page 97 it says 21st

2 of May, and 103 it's 7th of May back again.

3 MR. NICE: There is no doubt about it, there is an incorrect

4 ordering of the pages.

5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, okay. That's true.

6 MR. NICE: I don't challenge that at all.

7 Q. We're going, if --

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice says that he is not

11 questioning the fact that the pages have been mixed up in their order, but

12 he claims that what he has just quoted was something quoted from May 1999,

13 although the mission, the word "mission" is used, and as the general has

14 just said, that word and term was used to denote the Verification Mission,

15 and judging by the sense of what it says, this must have -- must have been

16 noted down before October 1998, before the arrival of the Verification

17 Mission although there's no date here and he doesn't know where it is but

18 he claims that it's May.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Milosevic.

20 MR. NICE: Respectfully -- no, I won't say it.

21 Q. Well, we're going to hear a little later, you see, when we return

22 to your evidence about places like Izbica, one of the facts for which

23 there is evidence is that even where the Serb authorities exhumed corpses,

24 those corpses found their way to Batajnica 1 and 2. Don't answer yet.

25 I'll wait.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Go ahead, Mr. Nice.

2 MR. NICE:

3 Q. We're going to hear that there is evidence about places like

4 Izbica where -- even where the Serb authorities exhumed bodies, some of

5 those bodies found their way to North Serbia and to territory controlled

6 by Serb forces. Are you suggesting that the movement of those bodies is

7 in any way explained by the conception you put on this entry in your

8 diary?

9 A. Let me answer the second part of your question first. That

10 absolutely does not correspond in any way to any note from my diary.

11 Now, let me answer the first part of your question. Precisely

12 with that fact or by that fact that the corpses taken out of the ground

13 were post -- examined as a post-mortem, photographs were taken, and I said

14 that everything