1 Monday, 14 March 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 10.14 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me say immediately that the reason for the

7 delay is that there was another proceeding in this courtroom.

8 In view of the late start, we'll sit first until 11.20, then we

9 take the 20-minute break, then 11.40 to 12.50, and then another 20-minute

10 break, 1.10 to 2.20.

11 Mr. Milosevic, I think we are in open session, and we'll continue

12 in open session for the time being. I remind you that you had scheduled

13 this witness for two hours, one and a half of which -- an hour and -- I

14 think a little more than an hour has gone. Please start, Mr. Milosevic.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

16 WITNESS: BARRY LITUCHY [Resumed]

17 Examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

18 Q. [Interpretation] We're in open session, Mr. Lituchy, so I'm not

19 going to mention any names, the names of the Albanian we left off

20 discussing, and there's no need to play the tape any more. We've already

21 seen it.

22 I'd like to draw your attention to page 135 of the transcript

23 where one of the members of your working group or delegation -- it's at

24 the end of page 135 of the transcript, and the question asked there about

25 -- having to do with the KLA and the Albanian we're talking about who we

1 saw on the tape says: "I think that many join because they are forced to

2 do so." When asked why they joined. "[In English] If someone

3 refuses to join, he is tortured or killed. They used to say, 'They

4 vanished. Nobody knows where they are.'" That they vanish and nobody

5 knows where they are is under quotation as he was quoted, I suppose, UCK.

6 "People value their lives, so it is better to join the KLA than to be

7 killed."

8 [Interpretation] Just let's clear this point up because in

9 inverted commas, "They vanished. Nobody knows where they are," that's a

10 quotation in inverted commas. The person you talked to, did he quote what

11 the KLA was saying?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, just turn the page, one page, and at the top of page 137

14 you'll see the following: This same person that you're talking to,

15 interviewing, says the following: "[In English] In every case, Albanians

16 get hurt from all sides, but mainly from NATO bombing. More than 300

17 Albanians were killed by NATO bombings."

18 [Interpretation] Did he say anything more about the Albanian

19 victims?

20 A. Well, what he said in particular that -- that struck me was the

21 fact that he had travelled with a representative of the United Nations

22 throughout Kosovo during the bombings, and he had seen with that UN

23 representative the death and destruction and killing of Albanians by the

24 NATO bombing, and he had a pretty good knowledge about what was going on

25 in Kosovo because he told us he had travelled with the UN representative

1 all over Kosovo at that time during the bombing. And that -- that to me

2 -- that to me signified that it was a pretty comprehensive understanding

3 of how bad the bombing had been for the Albanians in Kosovo.

4 Q. Very well. Thank you, Mr. Lituchy. Now, turn the page again, and

5 in that long paragraph where he gives a long account, a lengthy answer --

6 A. What page was that?

7 Q. Page 141. I apologise, 39.

8 JUDGE KWON: Can I make an observation, Mr. Milosevic? If you are

9 going to stick to the transcript, I'd like to make it clear that the

10 Chamber was informed by the interpreters there are substantial, not small,

11 discrepancies between what the Albanian witness said and the transcript.

12 So we may need some fuller translation of that.

13 MR. NICE: Your Honour, can I also inform the Chamber that I've

14 had some work done over the weekend. I haven't been able to deal with it

15 myself for obvious reasons --

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me just say that -- and I should have said

18 this before, that having received that information from the interpreters,

19 we order that the document be translated by CLSS. They have informed us

20 that they will be translating it, but in view of work pressure, it may

21 take some time.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, let me just remind

23 you, I pointed out the weaknesses of the translation, and I asked you to

24 bear in mind the fact that I consider authentic what the people actually

25 said, that is to say the videotape I consider to be the authentic original

1 document in this case as an exhibit. The transcript is just an auxiliary

2 to help us out, but what is authentic is what you can see and hear on the

3 videotape tendered. If there are some vital differences, that's another

4 matter, but the videotape is the original.

5 May I be allowed to continue?

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please continue. We take that into account,

7 Mr. Milosevic.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Furthermore, on page 139, at the top where the person is speaking

10 about attempts at negotiation and so on and so forth, he says the

11 following -- it's in the middle of the paragraph at the top of the page:

12 "[In English] Kosovo is multi-ethnic, multi-cultural, and

13 multi-confessional. Unfortunately, we cannot -- unfortunately --"

14 [Interpretation] something is missing here but he says "... you cannot

15 find many ethnic groups in Kosovo. [In English]... Serbians, Romas,

16 Muslims, Egyptians, Albanians who do not support the political aims of KLA

17 have fled from Kosovo. One day it may be entirely cleansed and only one

18 ethnic group will be in Kosovo. These days KLA soldiers kill people who

19 work in the fields. I think that all people in Western countries who not

20 believe their government tells them the truth must bring out the truth

21 from our country."

22 [Interpretation] Tell me, please, Mr. Lituchy, as we can see that

23 this particular witness is giving extensive answers to the various

24 questions that you have asked him, did you ask him to give extensive

25 answers or did he do so of his own accord and endeavour to give

1 explanations in view of his profession, that is to say he goes into more

2 detail than the others?

3 A. Yes. He went into more detail because he knew a great deal about

4 what we were in fact looking for. The kinds of information and the kinds

5 of questions we were asking, he was extremely able to answer and wanted to

6 answer those questions.

7 Q. And if you turn the last page before we come to the photographs

8 where they ask him this, page 141, how he came to leave and so on, that's

9 the context that he's talking about: "[In English] One day before I left

10 Kosovo, a woman came to my flat and said that if I told people that my

11 father was killed by Serbs, I could have a position in KLA. The United

12 States is heavily involved with KLA, they work closely together. Why

13 didn't the United States do anything many months ago, when KLA was killing

14 citizens of Kosovo. United States took measures only when the KLA was

15 about to be destroyed."

16 [Interpretation] And then he goes on to explain what can one think

17 when one sees "[In English] What can one think when one sees Madeleine

18 Albright, President Clinton, Hasim Thaci together, and Albright gives

19 Thaci a kiss?"

20 [Interpretation] So what did this witness tell you in actual fact?

21 Since you yourself are an American and you talked to that group, what did

22 he tell you about the position of the American side in these events,

23 especially with respect to the KLA?

24 A. He made it quite clear that the KLA -- or according to his

25 knowledge, and we believe it was -- it is extensive from what he said,

1 that the KLA was supported by the United States government. I'd like to

2 just add that he also in reference to the previous question you posed to

3 me, President Milosevic, the man in question here, his father was murdered

4 by the KLA. He told us that, and that is in the period before the

5 bombing, of course. So that to me seems to be the -- maybe the -- maybe

6 the greatest motivation for him if his father was murdered by this

7 organisation.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, did I understand you

9 correctly? Am I allowed to ask the witness something with respect to what

10 Mr. Nice brought up with respect to the subsequent contacts with this

11 witness or not?

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we'll allow you to ask those questions,

14 Mr. Milosevic.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Lituchy, Mr. Nice explained at the beginning of last week's

17 session during which you testified about your interviews with these

18 witnesses that he managed to get in contact with this particular witness.

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. And to paraphrase, the witness now lives in Kosovo, and the

21 witness says that what he said in your interview he was forced to say, he

22 had to say, because in the room with you you had some members of the

23 secret police of Serbia or Yugoslavia. It doesn't matter what he said,

24 but anyway, they were wearing civilian clothes.

25 Could you please answer this: You've already said that none of

1 the authorities attended the interviews, but was there any member of the

2 police wearing civilian clothes, perhaps, or wearing anything else,

3 without a uniform, with a uniform? Were they in any kind of contact with

4 you or the witnesses or, rather, the interviewees that he talked to?

5 A. Your Honour, I didn't hear Mr. Nice say actually that, but --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Precisely. I'd like to be directed to where the

7 material is that indicates that is what Mr. Nice said.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Bonomy, he said that before the

9 beginning of the -- or, rather, at the beginning of the session. He said

10 that he had been in communication with the witness, and I heard him --

11 that with my own ears. Now, I didn't ask for the transcript, but he said

12 that the witness explained how there was some representative of the police

13 wearing civilian clothes. Now, whether that's in the transcript or not, I

14 really can't say, but that's what I heard, and everybody else heard it,

15 I'm sure, as well.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it would appear that Mr. Lituchy, like me,

17 did not hear it.

18 THE WITNESS: I only heard that he said he had spoken with that

19 particular witness. I actually didn't hear the part of the police, sorry.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, don't pursue that line of

21 questioning.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I'll leave that to one

23 side until I've checked the transcript.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Lituchy, a moment ago you said that it was this particular

1 witness who informed you, or person who informed you that the KLA members

2 had killed his father.

3 A. Yes. That's correct.

4 JUDGE KWON: Sorry to interrupt. Can I remind the parties that

5 Mr. Nice had said that -- it's page 2, line 19, that I quote: "He

6 explained how at the time of the interview as well as the presence of the

7 other two men referred to yesterday for protective measures purposes there

8 were also plain clothed Serbian Interior Ministry police officers." Am I

9 correct, Mr. Nice?

10 MR. NICE: It accords with my recollection. I'm just trying to

11 find -- it accords with my recollection. I'm just trying to find the

12 passage in the transcript which I read over the weekend but now of course

13 can't find it. It accords with my recollection.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: In light of that clarification by Judge Kwon, to

15 whom you will be grateful, I'm sure, you may proceed with the question.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Kwon, for having

17 managed to find that.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. Lituchy, could you answer the next question: Was there any

20 kind of policeman in civilian clothes, not civilian clothes, or wearing

21 whatever or not wearing a uniform, was anybody like that in the room with

22 you?

23 A. That is a complete fabrication and -- and a ridiculous one as

24 well.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why would it be ridiculous?

1 THE WITNESS: Well, we were -- we came to interview those people.

2 It would be ridiculous to suggest that we came with Serbian police. It

3 seems -- it seems absurd, to me, anyway.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Was there anyone else there at all?

6 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes. There were two representatives from the

7 Roma federation or association. Yes, there was Mr. -- should I name those

8 individuals? I think they're in the transcript, so Mr. Damjanovic and

9 Mr. Haliti.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: And those were the only other two persons in the

11 room?

12 THE WITNESS: I believe that's correct. There may have been --

13 well, there may have been one other Roma with -- with them, I think,

14 possibly, but as far as -- as -- to the best of my recollection, it was

15 just the Roma federation people, that's all. And us.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: And generally in relation to all the interviews

17 that you --

18 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Was that the --

20 A. Yes, absolutely. It was just with the Romas. We were just with

21 the Roma people when we interviewed the Romas, and when we interviewed the

22 Albanian refugees we were just with the Albanian refugees and a couple of

23 Romas. In a hotel at that time.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Could you tell us how you managed to -- to gain

25 access to these people? Did you have to go through any authorities?

1 THE WITNESS: No, no. Actually, we were -- since I've -- I've

2 been asked this before, I'll answer it again but even with a little bit

3 more detail. We were actually a little bit disappointed, to say the

4 least, that we couldn't get any help from the government as far as these

5 interviews were concerned because we thought that -- we thought that our

6 delegation was important enough that it should have -- that it should have

7 received some sort of assistance. But as I recall at the time, President

8 Milosevic was organising a conference for Serbs and diaspora in Belgrade

9 and that was apparently -- I think, actually, in fact we were told there

10 was no time to help us at all. We were specifically told that when we

11 contacted somebody from the I think Ministry of Refugees about that. So

12 -- so what we did -- so what I organised was through my own contacts that

13 I was able to develop while I was there, yes.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: And from your knowledge, were the state

15 authorities aware of the interviews taking place?

16 THE WITNESS: I think only afterwards.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic, continue.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. As far as I remember, Mr. Lituchy, you explained that the

20 Albanians you talked to you contacted with the help of the representatives

21 of the Roma federation; is that right?

22 A. Correct. And let me add also on that point. The Roma people

23 being so desperate, they were looking for us to help them. They wanted --

24 they wanted to do as much as they could for us. It was only natural that

25 they would help us with these interviews. Sorry.

1 Q. Mr. Lituchy, in your explanation, you said -- when explaining the

2 KLA, you said that on the basis of the criteria you were able to apply in

3 a fascist -- well, that was applied in a fascist organisation which

4 liquidates anybody who doesn't think the same as they do or political

5 opponents, and in light of that answer of yours to that effect, I'm asking

6 you can you -- have you got any explanation about the conversation that

7 Mr. Nice had with this person who lives in Pristina now?

8 MR. NICE: Well -- he obviously can't deal with that. If the

9 Court wants to hear his answer, by all means, but it's not going to be of

10 any value.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I don't see the point of that question.

12 Ask another question, Mr. Milosevic.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Well, in view of the character of the organisation that you

15 described, Mr. Lituchy - I mean the KLA, that's what I'm talking about -

16 did you receive any information or become informed of the relationship of

17 that organisation towards its political adversaries, for example, or

18 individuals who would be able to present a fact that would compromise the

19 KLA?

20 MR. NICE: Same observation: Tendentious, leading, whatever you

21 like.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think Mr. Nice is right again. It's very

23 leading.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Well, the question,

25 Mr. Robinson, seems to be leading, would appear leading if you do not have

1 in mind the kind of organisation we're talking about here and what the

2 actual state of affairs over there is. Now, if you have that in mind and

3 if you have in mind how many Albanians they killed if they did not agree

4 with them, even postmen carrying letters, for example, then it would be

5 quite clear to you that --

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: You're now moving into the area of comment,

7 Mr. Milosevic. Let us move on.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Let's move on to your interviews with the Egyptians and Roma. If

11 I understood you correctly, Mr. Lituchy, you did not ask, when it came to

12 these tapes that we're going to play now and which relate to the Egyptians

13 and Roma, that they be protected. They can be shown in open session; is

14 that right?

15 A. That's correct, yes.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please could the technical booth

17 play the excerpts from tape number 12, or excerpt number 12, and then we

18 can take it from there. At the beginning we have Mr. Cerim Abazi, and I

19 can see, and this is on page 30 of this material, he said: "I lived in

20 Pristina. I came to Zemun Polje." And Zemun Polje, by the by, is one of

21 the suburbs of Belgrade, quite a long way from the centre, but let us see

22 the excerpt.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice.

24 MR. NICE: Our analysis of pages 30 through to 45 is that it all

25 relates to events after the bombing --

1 THE WITNESS: That's false.

2 MR. NICE: I wonder if the Chamber would remind the witness not to

3 interrupt when the Chamber is being addressed by counsel.

4 THE WITNESS: Sorry.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: That is unacceptable behaviour, Mr. Lituchy.

6 THE WITNESS: Sorry.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: And might also be contemptuous. Yes.

8 MR. NICE: Our analysis is this all relates to material after the

9 bombing was over and therefore would be irrelevant. Of course if I've

10 missed something I would be happy to have the time taken with it, but it's

11 a matter for the Chamber and the accused to point what he really wants out

12 of this quite extensive period of interview.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you have heard the objection

14 raised by Mr. Nice. He says that this material from pages 30 to 45 is

15 irrelevant in that it relates to events after the bombing and doesn't bear

16 on anything in the indictment.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, the overall conduct of

18 the KLA that is talked about here is highly relevant for what Mr. Nice

19 says the army did, the police did, and the others, and which I'm being

20 held accountable and charged with. So they speak in great detail about

21 the behaviour and conduct of the KLA, and this time vis-a-vis the Roma,

22 people, for example, towards them, in this particular case, and they

23 cannot say even by a wide stretch of the imagination that they had done

24 any harm to them, and they're even very often of the same faith, because

25 most of them are Muslims.

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13 English transcripts.

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1 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll consider the objection.

2 MR. KAY: I can just see a passage where, "On May the 11th, I was

3 in a police car with two other people..."

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Where is that?

5 MR. KAY: I don't have a paginated version. Thirty -- 37, in the

6 middle.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sorry, and what were you pointing to, Mr. Kay?

8 MR. KAY: "On May the 11th, I was in a place car with two other

9 people, and that car was attacked by KLA soldiers." So some aspects

10 are --

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. And what's the last date --

12 MR. KAY: June the 10th.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: The outside date is June the 10th -- June the

14 20th.

15 MR. KAY: Yes.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: So, Mr. Nice, the mere fact that the events might

17 relate to the period after the bombing doesn't necessarily mean that it is

18 -- wouldn't necessarily make it irrelevant to the indictment.

19 MR. NICE: Certainly in our respectful submission it would because

20 what we're concerned with here is what happened before people left Kosovo

21 and in order to drive them out, and what happened afterwards and what

22 drove them into Serbia is not a matter of concern to us nor something upon

23 which I shall be cross-examining the witness. There is an enormous amount

24 of material here of one kind or another, and if we go into all of it it's

25 going to take a great deal of time. I'm trying, in large part, to save

1 time.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I'll allow you to lead it, but be

3 selective. Not everything here will be critically relevant to your case,

4 to the indictment. So be very selective. For example, the passage to

5 which Mr. Kay referred would be relevant. So concentrate on material like

6 that, and remember that the time is not unlimited.

7 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

8 JUDGE KWON: We are not getting any translation.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the English booth now?

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I bear that in mind, Mr. Robinson,

12 but the reason why the KLA was expelling the Roma, in this case no

13 reference is made to the Serbs or others, it doesn't really differ from

14 the reasons why they were expelling people two months previously, three

15 months previously, a year or many years previously, for that matter.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, you commence, Mr. Milosevic, and we'll make

17 a determination as to relevance on a case-by-case basis.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. All right. Then very

19 briefly. You have the entire transcript. You have the tapes in their

20 entirety. We are just going to be playing brief clips from clip number 12

21 onwards, and then I'm going to put a few questions to the witness.

22 [Videotape played]

23 "Abazi: ... KLA in Pristina. He came here about one month ago,

24 said in his home he didn't live there. There live Albanian terrorists.

25 His house was burned.

1 Lituchy: His house was burned.

2 Abazi: Yes.

3 Lituchy: Did he lose any other property besides his house?

4 Abazi: It's his flat and his house.

5 Lituchy: And what about his family?

6 Abazi: All his family is here. His brothers, they lived in

7 Krusevac in tents because they have no flat or house in which to live.

8 Lituchy: Were any of his relatives killed or wounded?

9 Abazi: There are some wounded people in his family but he doesn't

10 know the number.

11 Lituchy: I would like to say --"

12 [Videotape played]

13 "Takih: His name is Tayih Takih. He had a house in the centre in

14 the place Magura and he is Egyptian. His home was protected by the

15 military and the army and one day there is no one left in that place. The

16 Albanian people didn't go out in the street, no woman and no children, but

17 the day when the army and the military left at that place, they came out.

18 The Albanian people burnt down 19 homes, 19 buildings.

19 Lituchy: In which town was this?

20 Takih: Magura. He now has no food, no property, no clothes, no

21 food. His 20 members of his family are here. Okay.

22 Rezeza: His name is --"

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You can go ahead.

24 [Videotape played]

25 "Rezeza: First his brother was killed in Kosovo Polje. He lives

1 near the railroad station in Krstic. His family, he has 45 members. He

2 has no money and is starving. He has no property, no food, no money. The

3 people who told him to go out or in fact he will be killed with all his

4 family. They were in the uniform but some of them were in clothes. He

5 doesn't know the names of that Albanian people because that were not

6 Albanian people from that place.

7 Lituchy: What property was taken from him?

8 Rezeza: His home is not burned down, but he can't -- came back

9 and can't live there. And now they sleep where they can.

10 Berisha: His name is Berisha Adan. He is from Obilic place in

11 Kosovo and he is refugees with his family. His granddaughter or grandson

12 is only three months. He was tortured by the KLA soldiers and also two

13 neighbourhoods, the Albanians neighbourhoods and his son, he was 12 years

14 old, was killed by them and now -- this is a picture of that guy and he is

15 killed.

16 Lituchy: What is his name?

17 Berisha: His name is Berisha Idis.

18 Koteska: And he was 12 years old.

19 Fishkin: Tell him that I'm from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and

20 that our hearts are with him.

21 Koteska: This is Kuraj [phoen], and he will --

22 Berisha: And he was tortured by the KLA terrorists.

23 Koteska: And you can see her arm, her face.

24 Berisha: He was one of the terrorists.

25 Koteska: His ex-neighbour who has tortured him and his wife and

1 the other one was ...

2 Berisha: Krasniqi Habib. It was the two brothers who tortured

3 them. They bring out his family from the house and they took all the

4 things they need from their house

5 Lituchy: What was the address of his house?

6 Berisha: It's Jugobogdan Street 270, Obilic.

7 Lituchy: And what town is that again?

8 Koteska: Obilic. Obilic.

9 Lituchy: He lost a house and what else?

10 Berisha: He lost his house, his son. He lost his job, also his

11 son lost a job, and he worked in the factory and he worked there for 26

12 years, and now he doesn't work. This was the paper that he was working

13 there. One month ago, on Thursday, the KLA soldiers killed his father and

14 his two uncles.

15 Lituchy: What was their names?"

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I'm going to stop the tape, stop

17 the tape, and direct some questions to you. The difficulty that I am

18 having is in determining the period to which the witness's statement

19 relate and whether that period is within the indictment period. Some of

20 it clearly, clearly is not, and I don't know how you would be able to

21 substantiate that the events to which the statements relate fall within

22 the indictment period. It appears to be of a very general nature. But

23 let me hear your answer, and then I'll hear from Mr. Nice and Mr. Kay,

24 because I don't think we should continue if we're not able to substantiate

25 the periods to which the statements relate.

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, there is no doubt, and

2 we established that at the very beginning, that these interviews were

3 conducted, as the witness said, in August 1999. These interviews were

4 conducted in August 1999, but people -- these people are talking about

5 what happened to them during the war, during the conflicts in Kosovo and

6 of course after the clashes when they were expelled.

7 I don't mind if you will not watch the video footage any more.

8 I'm going to put questions to the witness about what the interviewees said

9 to him. We can rely on the video footage, too, but I'm just going to ask

10 him to say when the relevant time that you're interested in was.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's critically important for us.

12 Mr. Kay.

13 MR. KAY: Conduct after the period of the indictment can be

14 relevant in a general way to show perhaps the state of mind of the other

15 groups within Kosovo Albanian society and how they were reacting generally

16 to the Serbs who were an ethnic minority in that particular region.

17 The evidence of the Prosecutor was presented in this way, that it

18 was the Kosovo Albanians who were oppressed and discriminated against and

19 had to bear the brunt of the Yugoslav government forces in dealing with

20 them in a particular way involving force and discrimination. If, however,

21 the population that is being alleged to have been affected that way is

22 itself actually in possession of those characteristics acting in that way,

23 it's been Mr. Milosevic's case that this course of conduct that they were

24 embarking upon during the period of the indictment before the conflict was

25 also being sustained afterwards goes to show the correctness in a general

1 way of what he has been asserting, then in our submission it may well have

2 relevance, albeit limited because it's not within the confines of the

3 indictment, but passages of it could go to show the force of his argument

4 in a general way.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Maybe too general a way.

6 Mr. Nice.

7 MR. NICE: Little to add. They appear all to have left at the end

8 of or after the bombing. They left for Serbia. We are concerned with

9 people who essentially left Kosovo for other reasons and went to Macedonia

10 and Albania. But the utility of this material in showing disposition, if

11 there is an identifiable disposition of the KLA, would have to be

12 modulated by the fact that at the time of the acts spoken of here, even

13 the act of May 11th that we looked at on page 37, comes after a change of

14 fortunes and in the course of the bombing.

15 The May the 11th one is of somebody who doesn't leave until June

16 the 26th, as we can see on page 37. So that I stick by my original

17 position that this is material that is unlikely to be of any value to the

18 Chamber and not material I'm likely to be cross-examining on.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, we don't consider this material to

21 be directly -- directly relevant. You have other evidence which is

22 clearly relevant to the period that the indictment deals with and which

23 can help the Chamber. We don't consider this evidence will be very

24 helpful to us. So let us move on to other material that you have.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Robinson, I'm aware

1 of the fact that it is this witness who is testifying. We don't have to

2 play the tapes any more, but I'm going to put a few questions to him that

3 have to do with what the witnesses said to him about the time period that

4 you consider to be relevant.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. For example, Mr. Lituchy, you talked to Mr. Abazi, didn't you, the

7 representative of the Egyptians; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What did Mr. Abazi tell you about the position of Egyptians until

10 1990 and after 1990 in Kosovo and Metohija?

11 MR. NICE: Before he answers may we know if that is in fact

12 covered in the materials as to any notes? If so, the page number. If

13 it's not covered in the notes, is the witness speaking from any other

14 notes? If not, then we'll know it's just from memory.

15 THE WITNESS: On page 30, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Page 30.

17 THE WITNESS: If you look at the first paragraph where Mr. Abazi's

18 name is mentioned, and you take a look at the last sentence: "We were not

19 allowed --" and he's speaking about the period before 1999. "We were not

20 allowed to say that we were Egyptians because we were told that we are

21 Albanians because our language is Albanian." He's referring to the KLA,

22 because the KLA did not -- I should mention that the Egyptians are one of

23 the groups of the Roma people but they are distinguished from the main

24 group of Roma people in that they do speak Albanian as their primary

25 language. Therefore, the KLA wanted, in order to -- wanted -- were

1 persecuting them if they did not identify themselves as Albanians even

2 though they are Roma. That's what he's saying in this sentence. And

3 that's actually a very well-known fact about the Egyptians in Kosovo.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Lituchy, let me make a correction. In the transcript it says

6 before 1999, and he really says before 1990, and then in the middle of

7 this paragraph he says "In the '90s through the democratic process we

8 established our association."

9 A. No, no. I was saying that I was -- I put the 1999 in there. I

10 didn't -- it was not in the transcript. I'm -- I'm -- I was explaining

11 what this sentence means in this transcript, what Mr. Abazi was saying,

12 actually.

13 Q. All right.

14 MR. NICE: I'm sorry to have to regularly object to things this

15 witness is saying, but we are really back to expertise again. Here we

16 have a simple, apparently one-line answer by the witness -- I beg your

17 pardon, not by the witness, by the person spoken to, Abazi. Now we have a

18 long explanation of his answer by the witness. It wouldn't normally be

19 permitted because it constitutes commentary and he's going to say it's

20 expert commentary on what he's being said. There must be some parameters

21 in which this evidence should fit.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think we could -- we could accept what he said

23 as a factual comment, Mr. Nice.

24 Mr. Milosevic, I am of the view --

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- that you are spending too much time on this

2 when you have more relevant material to deal with, and prior to today you

3 had spent one hour and 50 minutes with this witness. You had scheduled

4 him for two hours. So you're now well beyond that time, and you have more

5 relevant material to deal with. It's a question of how you manage your

6 case.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I understand that, Mr. Robinson. It

8 is in my interest to manage my time as rationally as possible. I assure

9 you of that. However, I must react to what Mr. Nice said just now. He

10 said that this was commentary, what Mr. Lituchy was saying, but that's not

11 the case at all.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have dealt with it. I have dealt with it.

13 There is no need for you to rise to the bait on every

14 occasion, Mr. Milosevic. Let us proceed.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just wanted to read out a

16 quotation to you. It's not my answer. It's really just a quotation. But

17 never mind.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no, no. I have already ruled on it, so there

19 is no need for you to deal with it.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Robinson.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Lituchy, please, just very briefly I would like to deal with a

23 few witnesses, and please just tell me if you have something that the

24 witness said about the period that is considered to be relevant here. You

25 talked to Mr. Sefedini, right? Did Mr. Sefedini say something to you

1 about the position of the Roma?

2 A. Yes, he did.

3 Q. Only if you have something that pertains to this period on which

4 Mr. Robinson insists.

5 THE WITNESS: If I could have a clarification, Judge Robinson.

6 You're referring to a period before March 1999? Is that what you're -- or

7 prior to June 1999?

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Prior to June 1999. 20th of June, which is the

9 outside date in the indictment.

10 THE WITNESS: Yes. Mr. --

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: I should clarify that the Chamber does not apply

12 the date in a mechanical manner. As Mr. Kay explained, there may be

13 things outside the indictment date which may be relevant for a particular

14 reason, but in this case we want evidence prior to June.

15 THE WITNESS: June 10th or June 20th?

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: June 20th.

17 THE WITNESS: 20th.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

19 THE WITNESS: Mr. Sefedini told me that Albanian, as it says on

20 page 31 of the transcript, that members of the KLA attacked him and forced

21 him to leave his home and that now that property has been taken over by

22 Albanian terrorists. That would have been in that -- in that time period.

23 It's three days after the military agreement in Kosovo. So I suppose

24 that's June 13th, isn't it? June 13th?

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. All right. You talked to Mr. Tefiq. Did he say something to you?

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.

3 MR. NICE: Can I help you, I hope? This is one example, according

4 to the work we've done over the weekend, where if you look at the answer

5 at the top attributed to Sefedini and there is a reference to Albanian

6 separatists and followed by a reference to the KLA to which the witness

7 has referred. My understanding is that that's one example where the KLA

8 simply isn't mentioned and the -- those who prepared the transcript have,

9 for whatever reason, have added things like "members of the KLA" when the

10 words "KLA" aren't there. We'll have to check this, obviously, against

11 the eventual transcript of the tape, but that is an example of the sort of

12 problems that I understand we face.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: That would be a very serious misrepresentation if

14 that is so, Mr. Nice. We will be getting a translation from the proper

15 authorities, and when we get that, then we'll have to re-examine our

16 transcripts of the evidence and make our own assessment.

17 That may be another reason, Mr. Milosevic, for you to reconsider

18 your approach to this evidence.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I have already said to you

20 that it is the tape that is the evidence that I'm submitting. If there

21 are mistakes in the current translation, they don't really matter to me

22 because it's the original on the tape that is relevant as far as I'm

23 concerned.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Lituchy, do you have anything characteristic to say about

1 Mr. Takih, the man you talked to?

2 A. Is that Tayih Takih?

3 Q. That would be it, roughly, yes.

4 A. Yes, that's on page 31. Well, I think relating to the objections

5 made earlier, there is something very important in this statement that

6 Mr. Takih made to me. He said that "My home was protected by the army,"

7 and then immediately after they left, his safety, his security, and his

8 property and even his lives -- the lives of his family, were in jeopardy.

9 And I think that's very important, especially in regard to the period

10 before 1999 because it clearly, clearly says that the Yugoslav army was

11 defending the rights --

12 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry, Mr. Lituchy, could you tell the name

13 again?

14 THE WITNESS: It's -- I apologise if I'm mispronouncing his name:

15 Tayih Takih.

16 JUDGE KWON: But on page 31 he is referring to his name as

17 Krasniqi Tefiq.

18 THE WITNESS: No. That's the Egyptian before him. I'm sorry. I

19 should have -- yes, they're very similar names.

20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

21 THE WITNESS: But what was I saying? I'm -- yes. He says, "I had

22 a house in the centre of Magura." This man Takih. "My home was protected

23 by the army but one day they were gone." He's referring, of course, to

24 the Yugoslav army, the Yugoslav army police. They were protecting him,

25 they were protecting his property, protecting his family and his right to

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13 English transcripts.

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1 live there. Then one day they were gone and then so, too, were his rights

2 and his safety. "Once I had fields, now I have no food, no property, no

3 home." This -- this, I think, is -- well, I won't comment on it because

4 I --

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: But let me just direct your attention to the

6 point raised by Mr. Nice. At the top, Sefedini --

7 THE WITNESS: Yes.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- Mr. Nice is saying that the work that was done

9 by his translators over the weekend --

10 THE WITNESS: Yes.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- indicated that the reference to "members of the

12 KLA attacked me" should not be there at all. What is your recollection of

13 that?

14 THE WITNESS: Judge Robinson, my recollection is, and it's

15 refreshed by looking at the transcript here on page 31, that the man

16 Sefedini, this refugee --

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: I would actually prefer a recollection not

18 refreshed by what you see on the transcript.

19 THE WITNESS: He referred to armed Albanian men on several

20 different occasions. It wasn't just this one reference. In other words,

21 if you look at the entire context of what's saying there and if -- if you

22 -- you know, if you think about the whole thing -- the statement, the

23 whole statement clearly indicates that he's referring to armed Albanians

24 who are terrorising him. Now, if he didn't use the word KLA, I'm not

25 aware of that, but in any event, he does refer to armed Albanian men.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Yes, we are going to break at 11.20,

2 as I indicated earlier. The first break, 11.20.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. So, Mr. Lituchy, where you quote Takih on page 31, the penultimate

6 paragraph, or the third from the bottom, he says, "[In English] But the

7 day when the army left that place, they came out and burned down 19

8 homes." [Interpretation] So that happened on that same day?

9 A. Right.

10 Q. Is that what you remember yourself?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. Very well. Now, tell me this, please. You talked to Mr. Dulaj

13 on page 34. Let me just draw your attention to a quotation there when you

14 ask about his address, et cetera. He says what his address is and says

15 have "I have five children, my daughter -- [In English] Anesi Akmeti, was

16 raped by KLA soldiers. At night we were sleeping in our house, and KLA

17 soldiers broke in and dragged my daughter out and raped her."

18 [Interpretation] Do you remember that interview with Mr. Dulaj?

19 A. I believe it was Mrs. Dulaj.

20 Q. I apologise. I do apologise. Because you can't see here, and we

21 weren't able to look at the tape. I just have the surname.

22 A. That's my recollection. I believe it's the woman, yes.

23 Q. So well. So it's Mrs. Dulaj. Do you remember that conversation?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And do you remember something that would be characteristic for

1 Mr. Rezeza's testimony? Anything particular that Mr. Rezeza said during

2 the interview?

3 A. Could you point to the page?

4 Q. Rezeza is on the last page or, rather, the last paragraph of page

5 31. He says where he lived. He says that "his [In English] brother was

6 killed in Kosovo Polje." [Interpretation] And then goes on to say: "[In

7 English] My family has 45 members."

8 A. Yes. I'm sorry, what was the question again?

9 Q. The question was this: What did Rezeza tell you about the conduct

10 and behaviour of the KLA?

11 A. Well, clearly that they were -- that they were determined to kill

12 him and his brother, and I think - and let me just check this - but there

13 was -- there were several -- there were several examples where I

14 interviewed Romas where they told me -- Egyptians and Romas where they

15 told me that their family was particularly targeted because they were in

16 the Yugoslav army before the -- before 1999, and -- so that -- I'm not

17 sure if this is one of those instances, but let me just take a look here.

18 Yes. Well, I don't -- well, this may not be one of those

19 instances where -- I don't see mention of his brother being in the army,

20 but there are other instances in the transcript.

21 Q. Rezeza just says here, among other things, "First my brother was

22 killed in Kosovo Polje," "[In English] in Kosovo Polje." [Interpretation]

23 And then he speaks about other matters which were less serious than this

24 killing. Do you happen to remember that?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Take a look at page 35 now, please, where you're talking to a Roma

2 man by the name of Berisha. That is six paragraphs from the bottom, one

3 line paragraphs. He says, "[In English] I was tortured by KLA soldiers,

4 by two of my Albanian neighbours. They killed my son..."

5 [Interpretation] and so on and so forth. Do you remember talking to

6 Mr. Berisha?

7 A. Yes, of course.

8 Q. And in connection with Berisha, and Berisha's on the tape and he

9 showed you, we saw that, how much he -- well, he said he worked in the

10 electrical distribution industry, whereas the translator says he worked in

11 a factory. So that was a little imprecision there, although it doesn't

12 matter, it's not any major difference or important difference. And he

13 says at the end of the passage: "KLA soldiers killed my father and my two

14 uncles."

15 Do you remember talking to Mr. Berisha?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So when was it that the KLA soldiers killed his father and two

18 uncles?

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: This will be the last answer and then we have to

20 take the break.

21 THE WITNESS: It was --

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

23 THE WITNESS: I don't recall when -- when exactly he --

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that not the reference to "One month ago this

25 Thursday KLA soldiers killed my father and my two uncles." Just about

1 halfway down page 36.

2 THE WITNESS: Yes. "One month ago ..." So this would have been

3 July, the first week of July then.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: So that would be outside the period,

5 Mr. Milosevic. So that's not evidence that is going to help us.

6 We're now going to take the break for 20 minutes.

7 --- Recess taken at 11.24 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 11.49 a.m.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you may want to consider that the

10 tape has been played, and there isn't much point in going over the points.

11 We have seen the tape, and it's a matter for us to form our own views of

12 it. So you may want to move on to some other relevant piece of evidence.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I'll conclude my

14 examination-in-chief of this witness very quickly, but I'd just like to

15 say that the persecution of the non-Albanian population has been going on,

16 and you know that full well here, intensively from the Prizren League in

17 1878. So that persecution of the non-Albanian population is a vital

18 element which must be borne in mind regardless of whether you place it

19 within the frameworks of the 20th of June, before or after that date.

20 But, yes, just a few more questions.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. You have my assurance that it will not be

22 ignored as long as it is relevant. Please move on, Mr. Milosevic.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Lituchy, on page 37 there is a brief answer by Mr. Rakipi

25 there. He speaks at length but just this one: "[In English] On May

1 11th, I was in a police car with two other people and that car was

2 attacked by KLA soldiers. No one was wounded but the military car in

3 front of us was engulfed in flames."

4 [Interpretation] Do you remember that conversation?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did he tell you any more about the attacks by the KLA on the army

7 and police at that time?

8 A. I believe it was a woman again, President Milosevic. It was Rada

9 Rakipi.

10 Q. I do apologise, but as I haven't got the tape before me, it's

11 difficult for me to distinguish just on the basis of the surname whether

12 it is a man or woman. But let's move on.

13 On page 41 we come to Berisha. "[In English] I left Pristina on

14 June 15." [Interpretation] That's what he says within the framework of

15 that period of time that we can discuss. He says, "[In English] My

16 brother was in the Yugoslav army. Five KLA soldiers came to my house

17 showing a photograph of my brother, asking for him ... They told me I

18 have just five minutes to produce my brother or they will kill my entire

19 family."

20 [Interpretation] Then further down, he says: "[In English] I went

21 to British KFOR and told them what happened, and they told me to go

22 wherever I want but just leave this place.

23 "Lituchy: The British KFOR soldiers told --"

24 A. Yes, that's correct. In fact, there were two times where British

25 KFOR soldiers -- oh, no. The second time we're not sure if it's British

1 or not, but they were KFOR -- did not help protect these Roma -- these

2 Roma victims. There's the case on page 41 and on page 42. In other words

3 twice. First the sister of Hasim Berisha went to British KFOR and told

4 them -- told them what had happened, how they were being -- how their

5 lives were threatened. This is the brother -- I mean, this is Hasim

6 Berisha, this is his sister, and also it refers to their brother Malic

7 Berisha. The British KFOR forces basically told them to leave. They told

8 them, "You --" they basically went along with what the KLA was also

9 telling them; get out of Kosovo.

10 And in the second instance, on page 42, it's a slightly different

11 incident but they went to KFOR and one could -- one could argue perhaps

12 that KFOR is -- was not entirely knowledgeable, but it was a translator at

13 KFOR who -- who deliberately put these Romas in danger by not -- by not

14 helping them when their lives were threatened. And by the way, this was

15 all before June 15th. You mentioned June 15th, President Milosevic, but

16 it's actually the before June 15th because that's the day they left

17 Kosovo. They left Pristina on June 15th. So these events took place

18 before June 15th.

19 Q. Very well. Take a look at page 44, please. And we come to Kotesi

20 there. Do you remember your interview with Kotesi?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. "[In English] On June 18, KLA soldiers attacked Serbian and Roma

23 people in Gnjilane. At that time British and French KFOR soldiers also

24 entered the town. KFOR did nothing because they were on the other side of

25 the town but the town is not very big so they had to know what was

1 happening."

2 [Interpretation] Then he goes on to say how the non-Albanians were

3 attacked. "[In English] 300 metres behind me was another man was riding a

4 bicycle and KLA soldiers threw a grenade at him and killed him. I was

5 lucky..." [Interpretation] And you ask him what was his name, "[In

6 English] Abdulla Ramadani. He was twenty years old."

7 Do you remember that interview with him, Mr. Lituchy?

8 A. [Previous translation continues]... yes.

9 Q. And now at the very end in tab 2, tab 2 now, page 5, you ask this

10 -- the person's name is Shakolji. You asked him, "What happened in

11 1999?"

12 MR. NICE: Have we had any evidence about the circumstances of tab

13 2? It's a totally different situation from tab 1. We need separate

14 justification if justification can be advanced for it ever to be admitted

15 when one looks at the date of its preparation. So a great deal more

16 groundwork is necessary before -- the Chamber may think, before it should

17 be considering this testimony.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Agreed. Introduce us to tab 2, Mr. Milosevic.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, tab 2 relates to an

20 interview conducted later on, but the questions relate to 1999. As you

21 can see on page 5, for instance, Barry Lituchy says, "Tell us what

22 happened to you in 1999." I'm not going to read all this out now but he

23 says that they took his wife and two daughters. And in the middle of the

24 page Lituchy says, "Did they kill your wife?" And the answer is, "My wife

25 and my two daughters."

1 JUDGE KWON: We have not seen this video. We are not aware of

2 what this transcript is all about.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But you do have it.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Lituchy, is the tape in the set of tapes handed over here?

6 A. Yes, absolutely.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So you can find it. There's no

8 problem there.

9 MR. NICE: Well, Your Honours --

10 JUDGE KWON: No, it is for you to present evidence.

11 MR. NICE: Can I make one thing absolutely plain? If it will help

12 the Court, as far as I -- we were provided with a number of CDs or tapes

13 -- CDs was it? Nothing -- and we've had them listened to. As far as I've

14 been able to understand, nothing at all for tab 2. And while I'm on my

15 feet because I was going to mention this at some stage, if the Chamber

16 would be good enough to go to where we just ended off -- ended up, which

17 was page 45. Between page 45 and page 127, various interviews, and again

18 we've had no tapes or CDs covering those at all. And I'm going to raise

19 in due course as a separate ground of exclusion of all of that material

20 the fact that without the underlying material it certainly cannot be

21 admitted.

22 JUDGE KWON: I remember that he said he would not present those

23 parts.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, is there a tape for tab 2?

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] A tape for tab 2 does exist, yes,

1 and it was handed over here.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Prosecutor didn't receive it. We don't have

3 a copy of that tape. In the absence of a tape which is the basic original

4 material, you would not be allowed to lead evidence on this matter.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Robinson. Then I'll

6 just ask a couple more questions.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Lituchy, you conducted a series of interviews with people who

9 were refugees at the time, in August 1999, that is, and they -- they told

10 you what had gone on. Now, my question is this: Did you find any other

11 proof and evidence testifying to the position of the Roma people, for

12 example, in Kosovo and Metohija, apart from the interviews you conducted

13 with these people?

14 A. Are you asking me about evidence that I collected or testimonies

15 or interviews that I made while I was there with Roma or subsequent?

16 Q. I'm asking you about any other proof and evidence. This is one

17 type of proof, these interviews. Do you have any other evidence?

18 A. Well, my intention was that we would look to see if the results or

19 the evidence that I -- that I was able to gather could be reproduced or

20 were going to be reproduced elsewhere and, yes, there were other -- other

21 reports. There were many -- there were reports that came out after our

22 visit, by Human Rights Watch and Voice of Roma. Even the UN Ombudsman for

23 Kosovo reported that -- supported our findings as far as what had happened

24 to the Roma in Kosovo, that they had been persecuted. I think that others

25 may not have come to the conclusion that these were crimes of genocide

1 against the Roma, but that was -- that was -- that was my -- that was my

2 understanding from what everything I heard in every interview, but yes,

3 there were many -- you see, the thing is what we -- what we heard was

4 replicated by every other independent researcher into this matter,

5 including the UN Ombudsman. So I suppose that -- that's a pretty good

6 scientific test of what we learned, validating it.

7 Q. Mr. Lituchy --

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Just a very brief question. I noticed with all these interviews

11 when you're talking to the individuals concerned, your interviewees, that

12 you always ask them for their address, the address they lived at before

13 they were expelled from Kosovo. Why did you do that?

14 A. My -- my belief is, and it's based also on my experience with

15 interviewing Holocaust survivors that not -- that the only way that any

16 kind of justice can be achieved is that the property that has been stolen

17 from these people is -- is paid for or returned to these people, and I'm

18 very, very concerned about that. That, in fact, is also one of the

19 reasons I went back -- went to Kosovo in 2004, to see exactly whether any

20 effort had been made to restore not merely the refugees but their property

21 and their -- and their belongings, and I think that that has to be kept in

22 mind by everyone who is interested in the subject of Kosovo.

23 Q. Mr. Lituchy, you also talked to the president of the European

24 Community in Kosovo, Mr. Prlincevic. Can you tell us briefly what

25 you remember about that, what you talked about?

1 A. I'm sorry, did you see the European Community or the Jewish

2 community?

3 Q. Jewish community, Jewish municipality. I said Jewish.

4 A. I heard "European" in the translation, sorry. Yes, I spoke to

5 Mr. Cedo Prlincevic, who is the head of the Jewish community in Kosovo,

6 yes. I interviewed him. But he didn't want to be interviewed on -- on

7 video, on camera.

8 Oh, I'm sorry, was there a further question?

9 Q. Yes. Or, rather, let me ask you just one more question to do with

10 him. Do you remember what he told you?

11 A. Yes. He -- he -- I asked him when did he leave Kosovo, why did he

12 leave Kosovo, what did he leave behind; the same questions that I asked

13 all of the refugees, and he explained that he had -- he had left Kosovo

14 about ten days after the bombing had stopped, that he was forced to leave,

15 that he had to give up his job as the head of the city archives of

16 Pristina. He was from Pristina. In fact, his family had lived in

17 Pristina since 1650, he told me, and that when he left with his wife and

18 mother and other relatives, what was left of the Jewish community was

19 completely extinguished by the KLA, that that was -- in other words, what

20 had occurred -- what had not been done by the Nazis in World War II was

21 done by the KLA in two weeks.

22 Q. Is that your conclusion or did he tell you that?

23 A. No, I'm sorry. That's -- that was my -- I couldn't help but make

24 that observation, that last point, because the Jews of Kosovo were also

25 persecuted during World War II by Albanians. By Albanian fascists, I

1 should say. Not by all Albanians, certainly not.

2 Q. And finally, just one more question. Mr. Lituchy, did you have

3 any contact with non-governmental organisations, NGOs, and did you become

4 acquainted with the activities of the NGOs with respect to Kosovo and

5 Metohija?

6 A. Well, yes. I was interested in finding out if -- if other NGOs

7 were helping the refugees. As you can see in the transcripts and video I

8 asked that many times, and I was never -- I was never directly in contact

9 with them when I -- when I was interviewing the refugees. The refugees

10 told me that -- that -- that they were not receiving assistance from these

11 NGOs and these international aid agencies. You can find that mentioned

12 many times in these interviews. And that the -- and that also was later

13 confirmed by many reports, that Romas were excluded. They were prevented

14 from receiving aid, that the aid would only go to Albanians, and Romas

15 were not -- were -- generally suffered. I can recall from one report that

16 I read, I believe it was -- it may have been a Voice of Roma report that

17 the Romas could not receive aid from organisations like the Mother Teresa

18 organisation and the Islamic Red Cross and others because they were not

19 Albanians. But I did -- I did contact Human Rights Watch and I got their

20 reports, and they did have -- they did have two reports that confirmed

21 what I -- what I learned while in Kosovo, which is that the Romas were

22 being systematically persecuted by the KLA. The dates on those reports

23 are July -- are August 1999 and July 2004.

24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Lituchy.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,

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1 Mr. Robinson.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice:

4 Q. So the Human Rights Watch reports seemed to be systematic in a way

5 that you found acceptable?

6 A. In regard to Romas, yes.

7 Q. Are you a historian?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do recall yourself as a serious historian and a serious academic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is the document that you produced, this record and interviews, do

12 you regard this as a serious work of research?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. What investigators did you take with you with experience in

15 interviewing people to conduct these interviews?

16 A. I conducted the interviews.

17 Q. So you took no investigators. What training did you go through

18 before you decided how you would interview people?

19 A. Well, I prepared my questions in advance, yes.

20 Q. What training in the skill of investigation did you undertake?

21 A. My training involved my previous interviews with Holocaust

22 survivors and also with Croatian -- Krajinan Serb refugees. That was my

23 first-hand training. Sometimes training is in the field not in the

24 classroom.

25 Q. Very well. Obviously you took no particular training for

1 yourself. Just in general terms, did you give any particular

2 consideration to the advantages or otherwise of interviewing people

3 individually or in groups or in crowds? Did you give thought to that?

4 A. Well, that -- that was where the conditions under which we -- the

5 only conditions under which we could do the interviews. It was very

6 difficult, I admit.

7 Q. If you take the interviews in the basement of the hotel, you chose

8 to conduct those in the presence of other people, not just one-to-one.

9 Why did you do that?

10 A. That was so my colleagues and the delegation could also

11 participate in the questioning of the refugees.

12 Q. So everybody could have a go, everybody could have a turn at

13 speaking and questioning?

14 A. Well, if -- if they had -- when I asked them if -- if they had a

15 question, yes.

16 Q. Did you give any thought to whether that was the best way of

17 getting the most accurate answers out of those you were interviewing,

18 Mr. Lituchy?

19 A. I didn't think that it compromised the answers given by the

20 refugees, no.

21 Q. You gave no thought to that really, did you?

22 A. I suppose not.

23 Q. No. Was this a neutral inquiry or was this an inquiry with a

24 particular purpose to serve?

25 A. Well, we didn't know -- we didn't know what the answers were that

1 we would get until we got them.

2 Q. Were you going to try and find evidence that would show the NATO

3 bombing to have been a terrible event?

4 A. Well, we were -- that was our understanding prior to our arrival

5 there, that there were -- that there were abuses, there were violations of

6 human rights. That was already our assumption, actually, before we went

7 but we did not know what the Romas or the Albanians would tell us until we

8 interviewed them.

9 Q. You were predisposed before you went against NATO and in favour of

10 the Romas; correct?

11 A. Of course I was in favour of the Romas, yes.

12 Q. And predisposed against NATO.

13 A. If they were -- if -- if their actions had hurt the Romas, yes.

14 Q. You were also predisposed against Albanians who were in any sense

15 separatists, weren't you?

16 A. Well, if -- it -- I wanted to find out what exactly the Albanians

17 had to say on that score, but I didn't -- I didn't -- I didn't know to

18 what extent the KLA had support among the Albanian population. I learned

19 as a result of my questions that the Albanians -- that not all Albanians

20 supported secession, that not all Albanians supported the KLA and that the

21 KLA was a great threat to the Albanians. So that was something that I had

22 to learn.

23 Q. I'll try the same question again: Predisposed against Albanians

24 who were separatists?

25 A. Well, "predisposed" can mean a lot of things. I'm not sure what

1 that means.

2 Q. Did you go and speak to any of the Albanians who had been forced

3 out into Macedonia or into Albanian?

4 A. No, I didn't have a visa to go to Albania or Macedonia, no.

5 Q. And at no time since have you investigated them, their stories,

6 their accounts, have you?

7 A. No, that's true.

8 Q. Why not? If you're a serious historian investigating this short

9 period of time, Mr. Lituchy, why not?

10 A. It was not -- it was not -- I did not have the time to make those

11 investigations, and that was not my priority, that's true.

12 Q. You're a great publicist, aren't you?

13 A. No, I don't think so.

14 Q. Don't you? Incidentally, before we move on, so that the Court can

15 know this, do you intend to write about in a public forum your experience

16 in this court?

17 A. Absolutely not.

18 Q. Good. Can we just look at one or two of the things you said.

19 We'll try to take them in date order.

20 MR. NICE: Your Honours, I'm happy to have the articles produced.

21 On the other hand, I'm quite happy not to burden the already heavy file of

22 exhibits in this case with writings of this witness. He acknowledges

23 saying the things contained in these articles, I'm quite content to leave

24 it at that and to leave the material on the transcripts, but I'm in the

25 hands of the Court, the accused, and to some extent Mr. Kay.

1 Mr. Prendergast, please, can we just lay this on the overhead

2 projector.

3 Q. Starting off, this is now the 27th of August, 1994. This comes

4 from the Coalition Against Western Intervention in the former Yugoslavia.

5 You remember being involved with that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Just if we can have a look at a couple of your then views. Is it

8 my screen or are they all a bit hard to read today? Is everybody else's

9 legible? Just looking at that first paragraph. Your expressed view then

10 was: "We all know what needs to be done. And I say this with some

11 sadness, because I am not by any means anti-Muslim or anti-Croat. But

12 what needs to be done, is for the Serbs to fight on to military victory in

13 Bosnia. There is no other way forward. And we must -- we all must do

14 everything in our power here and around the world to help the Serb forces

15 achieve this military victory."

16 Now, at this time, what, you were an academic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. No Serb background in your family?

19 A. What does that have to do with it?

20 Q. Please answer the question.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: You must answer the question, Mr. Lituchy.

22 THE WITNESS: Well, I am a native born US citizen, but if the

23 question is do I have Serbian ancestry, I do have part Serbian ancestry,

24 yes.

25 MR. NICE:

1 Q. How far back?

2 A. A couple of generations ago.

3 Q. And is this what informs your then and present attitude towards

4 Serbia?

5 A. No, absolutely not.

6 Q. Doesn't it?

7 A. No, it does not. That's false.

8 Q. You see, what we can't help but notice is that in this paragraph

9 it's "We must do everything in our power."

10 MR. NICE: Mr. Prendergast, would you turn us to the second page,

11 please, and the foot of it. Thank you.

12 Q. There it is. "We must not --" we again "-- let the Western powers

13 succeed in dividing us. They want to divide the Bosnian Serbs from

14 Yugoslavia and the Serbs of Krajina because they can't militarily defeat

15 the Bosnian Serbs any other way. But if they can divide the Bosnian Serbs

16 from Yugoslavia and Krajina, then they can beat all three! That's their

17 strategy - it's a three for one deal. And you can see this reflected in

18 the recent articles of the New York Times which are gleefully reporting on

19 these divisions as a good sign."

20 The next paragraph: "We can't allow ourselves to be divided

21 because this would be essentially allowing the imperialists to watch us

22 beat ourselves. Nor can we allow the Bosnian Serbs to be defeated..."

23 Let's go back. These are still your views, are they?

24 A. My view is that the Serbian nation is one nation and it should

25 have the same national rights as all other nations to a unified national

1 state.

2 Q. So you are -- you're not really an historian at all. You're

3 person with a political view, aren't you?

4 A. No, that's not true.

5 Q. Isn't it?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Read on, then. Have a look the next one, please, that I have in

8 date order, which is the 27th of January, 1995. Just see a couple of

9 examples of your then opinions.

10 MR. NICE: If Mr. Prendergast would show us the first page so we

11 can see what it is. Coalition Against Western Intervention in the former

12 Yugoslavia, Media Deception and the Yugoslav Civil War, by yourself.

13 Foot of the next page, please, Mr. Prendergast.

14 Q. Just see how you then saw the conflict. Right at the foot of the

15 page: "In August 1992, British television helped publicise the supposed

16 existence of concentration camps allegedly used by the Serbs to

17 exterminate Muslims and Croats. To prove that what they had discovered

18 was not a prison but rather a Nazi type death camp, ITN and others

19 broadcast pictures around the world, focusing on one emaciated man,

20 presumably a Muslim. Eventually that man was identified as --" The name

21 there, is that the right name, do you think, Slobodan Konjevic?

22 A. Are you asking me?

23 Q. I'm asking you; you said it.

24 A. I believed at the time that that was the correct name, but it may

25 -- I believe I subsequently learned that that was not the correct name.

1 I'm not sure, to tell you the truth, at this point.

2 Q. "... a Serb suffering from tuberculosis for ten years, arrested

3 for looting. The concentration camp/death camp story, having served its

4 purpose, was dropped. But by then the story had already been seen

5 millions of people. The fact that everyone in the photographs of these

6 'death camps' was well fed just somehow escaped reporters' attention.

7 "At about the same time as the death camp fabrication --"

8 JUDGE KWON: Next page.

9 MR. NICE: Sorry, next page, Mr. Prendergast. Thank you.

10 Q. "At about the same time as the death camp fabrication was the

11 'ethnic cleansing' story. While it is true that some Bosnian Serb forces

12 have evicted Muslims from their homes in Serb-held areas, what was not

13 said was that Muslim and Croat forces were carrying out the exact same

14 policy. But the media still presented it as a purely Serbian crime ..."

15 So that's your position at the time on the camps. Do you accept

16 now that there were camps?

17 A. Yes, but what I'm saying here is that -- I mean, that's not my

18 point. The point, as you just read it, was that this was presented as

19 purely a Serbian crime and that the Muslim and Croatian crimes of the

20 exact same nature were suppressed by the media and that there was a

21 demonisation going on of the Serbian people at that time, especially if

22 you take into consideration what's also in this article, that

23 illustrations were being made in leading newspapers like the Chicago

24 Tribune and the New York Times portraying Serbs as pigs, gorillas,

25 vultures. This is all in this article.

1 Q. Have a look at the foot of this page, if we can, please. And this

2 is the way you put it: "Incredibly, there are even worse examples. On

3 February 5, 1994, there was the infamous Sarajevo market massacre where 68

4 people were killed. The Serbs were blamed for it, that is until the story

5 leaked out on French TV that the UN knew that the Muslims had bombed their

6 own people in order to induce UN and NATO military involvement. The

7 disgusting ploy worked..." So still your position is it, that the UN knew

8 that the Sarajevo market massacre was --

9 A. What I'm saying there is that the UN -- that some people in the UN

10 knew and that that information was suppressed.

11 Q. Before we move on to the events after Srebrenica to see how your

12 views may have changed, just help me with this: You volunteered

13 yesterday, and you've put it in writing to be fair to you, that the late

14 Alija Izetbegovic was a war criminal.

15 A. Nazi war criminal.

16 Q. Nazi war criminal, yes. Well, now, it's true that at the age 18

17 he joined a group that sided with the Germans, but can you just tell us,

18 please, because I may have missed it, what was the actual war crime he

19 committed and that you were so willing to volunteer here? What was it

20 that he actually did?

21 A. As I recall, it was that he was an organiser for the youth

22 movement for the Bosnian Muslim fascist organisation that was helping to

23 recruit Bosnian Muslims for SS divisions.

24 Q. And at the -- well, he was part of a movement, and he served a

25 period of imprisonment.

1 A. That's what it did. That's what it did.

2 Q. I asked you a specific question: What was his war crime? Because

3 it's very easy to say these things, Mr. Lituchy, but you as a serious

4 historian would know how careful you have to be. What was the war crime

5 he committed?

6 A. That he was a collaborator with an organisation that was

7 recruiting people for the SS divisions in Bosnia.

8 Q. Now, at the same part of your evidence, before we move on to one

9 or two of the other things you've said, the same part of your evidence --

10 let's just see if I can find it -- you volunteered this, and this is -- I

11 have it on page 37200. Having dealt with his being an alleged convicted

12 war criminal and collaborator is how you described it, you went on to say

13 as a result of foreign forces, "These actors again played a role in the

14 persecution of national minorities in Yugoslavia in the 1990s."

15 Now, are you saying that the late President Izetbegovic persecuted

16 national minorities?

17 A. Within Bosnia?

18 Q. Well, what are you identifying as the "persecuted national

19 minorities," then, please?

20 A. Well, during his activities as a -- as a Nazi collaborator,

21 there's little doubt that that organisation was involved in the genocide

22 against Serbs, Jews, and Romas in Bosnia during World War II. As far as

23 later on in the 1990s --

24 Q. That wasn't actually an answer to the question, was it? You

25 volunteered that again, but carry on doing it if you think it's helpful.

1 Now, answer the question, please: Where did he persecute minorities in

2 this 1990s period?

3 A. During the 1990s, we can say that Izetbegovic was involved in

4 helping to ethnically cleanse parts of the population of Bosnia.

5 Q. Oh, really? That's it, is it?

6 A. Well, that's enough, I think.

7 Q. It doesn't occur to you, does it, Mr. Lituchy, that you may see

8 things through a somewhat extraordinary prism, that you hold very

9 one-sided views?

10 A. I don't think so.

11 Q. Don't you? Let's have a look at what you said in the 29th of

12 November 1995. Now, presumably you as a person with an interest in the

13 region had learnt about Srebrenica. Had you?

14 A. Sorry?

15 Q. Presumably you as a person interested in the region had learnt

16 about Srebrenica.

17 A. Yes, I remember when had happened.

18 Q. So that this article has to have in mind that you're now aware of

19 this. The detail of it wasn't necessarily known but the generality of it

20 was known, this most appalling event. Let's see what you then expressed

21 about the Dayton pact.

22 If we just go a little bit further down the page, please.

23 "The Dayton Pact --" third line -- "like the Munich Pact nearly 60

24 years ago, is not a peace agreement, but rather a prelude to further war.

25 The Dayton Pact signifies the unconditional surrender by the Bosnian Serb

1 leaders to the neocolonial powers of the West, led by the United States.

2 In one of the most obscene spectacles of fascist thuggery in modern times,

3 the Clinton regime has imposed its neocolonial political and military rule

4 over the destinies of some 20 million people in the Balkans by staging a

5 dubious international conference inside a military base in Ohio. It

6 represents one of the greatest setbacks to human rights since the Vietnam

7 War."

8 Help us. Is this a paragraph that you're happy to live with?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And against which your position as a serious academic should be

11 measured?

12 A. I -- I certainly -- I certainly believe that the facts do prove

13 that the war -- the wars that occurred in Yugoslavia were unnecessary and

14 would not have occurred without the US determination to break up the

15 country, yes. There's no question about that.

16 Q. There's the terminology.

17 MR. NICE: Let's go on two pages, please, Mr. Prendergast.

18 THE WITNESS: But that wasn't your question.

19 MR. NICE:

20 Q. My question to you was - and if you want it again you're welcome

21 to it: Is this a view to which you hold and against which your position

22 as a serious academic should be measured?

23 A. Right.

24 Q. And you say it should be, should it?

25 A. And you said that that -- well, I won't quibble with you, but I've

1 made clear that that's the basis for my position then and now.

2 Q. Let's look at how you describe things two pages on. "There were

3 several important tactical objectives that had to be accomplished first

4 before the US could directly impose its political and economic jackboot on

5 the peoples of the Balkans. Among these, some are quite obvious: the

6 restoration of the fascistic movements among the Croatian and Bosnian

7 Muslim population calling for secession from Yugoslavia; the international

8 recognition of these fascistic secessionist movements and the destruction

9 of a unified socialist Yugoslav state; a policy of war against those who

10 were against this (the Serbs); the demonisation of the Serbs through a

11 media campaign launched by governments, public relations firms and human

12 rights organisations which staged 'atrocities' that never happened ..."

13 Now, you understand, Mr. Lituchy, we're examining you as a -- for

14 reliability, for integrity and objectivity. Can you tell us, please, what

15 were the staged atrocities that you had in mind so shortly after

16 Srebrenica?

17 A. Honestly, I don't remember exactly which ones I had in mind.

18 Q. Give us a collection then.

19 A. But I certainly can refer you to a couple that occurred after

20 this, including Racak.

21 Q. That's not going to be very much use, is it?

22 A. Well --

23 Q. Mr. Lituchy, please listen. You as a serious academic seeking to

24 influence - let's not beat about the bush - world events, assert following

25 the Dayton Peace Accord that you know many regarded as a good solution,

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1 you assert that there have been staged atrocities. Now, please, you wrote

2 it, you tell us what it meant.

3 A. Okay. I can recall one in particular. There was the article that

4 appeared in The New York Times about 50.000 rapes. That's one that

5 certainly strikes -- that I can recall that I must have had in mind. The

6 fact that this story of mass rapes was being bandied about and yet there

7 was very little evidence, if any at all, of any unusually high level of

8 rapes at all, in fact, compared to, say, in the United States in a normal

9 year.

10 Q. English is your natural language. This is in English. False

11 account of rapes over a period of time is an allegation that can always be

12 made, but "staged atrocity" in the mouth of an educated academic --

13 A. I'm sure I have one. I'm sure I have one in mind.

14 Q. Well, please think about it.

15 A. I had one in mind but unfortunately at this moment I can't recall

16 exactly what I had in mind when I wrote that because I didn't come here to

17 testify because about my -- all of my writings. I can't remember every

18 single one of my writings.

19 Q. Any chance you were thinking about Srebrenica or something like

20 that?

21 A. Oh, no.

22 Q. Very well. Let's read on. "... that never happened while

23 distorting the conflict; the imposition of UN --"

24 A. Excuse me, Mr. Nice. So that was what you were getting at, that

25 you suggest that I had said that Srebrenica was a staged atrocity? Do you

1 have evidence of that?

2 Q. I'll press on with questions. It's not for you to ask me

3 questions. You've been given an opportunity to explain your writings.

4 A. That's absurd.

5 Q. "... while distorting the conflict; the imposition of UN

6 sanctions and 'peacekeepers' as a military stalling tactic, to hold the

7 Serbs back militarily while the Croats and Muslims were covertly armed;

8 the corruption and splitting of the Serbian leadership, pitting the

9 Bosnian Serb leaders against the government in Belgrade by making phoney

10 deals with both sides; sending the CIA and Pentagon war machine into

11 Croatia and Bosnia to covertly train and arm the Croats and Muslims while

12 collecting intelligence on the Serbs ..." Just that sentence. Where did

13 you source there, so we can know?

14 A. I can recall that. I can recall that I sourced that first of all

15 in an article in the Independent about Clinton's armed -- I mean, you

16 know, we're really asking me particulars about articles that I wrote ten

17 -- about ten years ago, but I do remember this, as a matter of fact, that

18 there was an article in the Independent that I -- that I was referring to

19 in this -- in this line here, about arm shipments to the Muslims that

20 Clinton -- the Clinton administration had in fact coordinated secretly,

21 breaking the arms embargo, as a matter of fact. And this is prior to

22 Dayton, yes.

23 Q. Let's look at the next sentence and I'm done with this page and

24 I've only got one more article I'm going to have the time to ask you

25 about, I think, today. Let's look at the next sentence to the end of the

1 paragraph: "... the NATO bombing and the coordinated Croat and Muslim

2 offences and genocidal attacks on civilian populations."

3 A. Oh, I see.

4 Q. You're been very free with the use of the word "genocide" since

5 you've been here. Which of the genocidal attacks are you referring to

6 here?

7 A. Mr. Nice, the -- the definition of crimes of genocide, as I

8 understand it, is that when a government or -- or army partakes in the

9 attempted destruction of a people, either in part or in full, by carrying

10 out certain actions against the civilian population, that that constitutes

11 a crime of genocide. There's no -- there's no question in my mind that

12 there were actual bombings of civilian targets in -- during the 1990s by

13 the Clinton administration. This was confirmed by every investigation,

14 every serious investigation that's been done on the subject, and therefore

15 it -- it constitutes if that -- it can be argued that a crime of genocide

16 was committed if the attempt was to destroy the Serbian civilian

17 population in either Bosnia or Serbia.

18 Q. Again, so that the Court can know where -- what your position is,

19 name us one of these -- and it must be intentionally, presumably, bombing

20 of a civilian target so we can just have it in mind.

21 A. I'm sorry, could you repeat that question.

22 Q. Of course. Can you name for us one of those civilian targets

23 subject to what must have been an intentional bombing.

24 A. In 1999 in -- during our delegation's --

25 Q. This is 1995, so we're looking at anything before 29th of

1 November, 1995, Mr. Lituchy.

2 A. What I read in the newspapers at that time when I -- prior to

3 writing this article, was that there were hospitals in Bosnia that --

4 civilian hospitals for Serbian people that were being bombed by NATO.

5 That's what I -- that's what I read at the time, and that was the basis of

6 my -- of my conclusion.

7 Q. Newspaper article, hospital bombing. Thank you. Last sentence:

8 "The final nail in the coffin was the complete surrender of the current

9 Serb leaderships in both Belgrade and Bosnia to the demands of US

10 imperialism."

11 So you thought the compromise made by the Serb leadership and RS

12 and also in Belgrade completely wrong, did you?

13 A. I don't think that any diplomatic agreement based on bombing can

14 be considered valid or legitimate.

15 Q. Let's go and see, for the last extract, which I think will help us

16 with an understanding of you, to this document of June 28, 1999. History

17 department at Kingsborough Community College, headed The American

18 Barbarism and the Big Lie Technique. And if we just go on, please, to

19 page 4 of 4, Mr. Prendergast, and see where you've summarised.

20 A. Where is this from? I don't believe I've seen this, but anyway...

21 Q. History department, Kingsborough --

22 A. No, no, this is not published by the history department.

23 Q. By whom is it published?

24 A. I have no idea, Mr. Nice. How would I know?

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson?

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I please receive this

3 document? I expected to get another one too.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, you should have a copy.

5 THE WITNESS: Judge Robinson, may I ask a question?

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, do you have copies for --

7 MR. NICE: Yes, I have copies for everybody --

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please.

9 MR. NICE: Although, as I say, I'm quite happy to just have it on

10 the record, I'm neutral as to --

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Put it on the ELMO.

12 Mr. Lituchy, what do you want to say?

13 THE WITNESS: Yes. Prior to this cross-examination, you directed

14 me not to answer questions that were not directly related to the facts

15 about which I've been called to testify --

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, these questions go to your credibility.

17 THE WITNESS: As a witness?

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

19 THE WITNESS: I see.

20 MR. NICE:

21 Q. This document is headed American Barbarism and The Big Lie

22 Technique. The original location is set out there.

23 A. This is not published by the history department of --

24 Q. By whom was it published?

25 A. I have no idea. I actually don't know. I haven't seen this.

1 Q. It is attributed to you.

2 A. It may very well have been written by me but it certainly is not

3 published by who it says it's published by.

4 Q. Let's just check to see that --

5 A. I don't know who published this.

6 Q. Let's just check to see whether the first paragraph appears to be

7 your position. Let's go to the first paragraph. I hadn't intended to but

8 I will. "Is there anyone left who still leaves that Yugoslavia was

9 destroyed by 'ancient ethnic hatreds,' and not from without by Western -

10 particularly American - imperialism and covert action?" This would appear

11 to be your position, wouldn't it?

12 A. I agree with it, yes.

13 Q. Could we go to the fourth page of four and see what is attributed

14 to you and I'm going to ask you if you adopt this as your terminology.

15 Halfway down that first paragraph, we see this: "The defeat of the Serbs

16 leaves us all with a much more dangerous world." That's no doubt your

17 view. "It has fully exposed the dark, criminal nature of William

18 Jefferson Clinton - a rapist, a murderer, a gangster and a fascist - and

19 his entire government. But we should not compare Clinton to Hitler; it

20 does not do justice to the full range of Clinton's social pathology. He's

21 best compared to a Ted Bundy or a John Wayne Gacey ..." You'll see where

22 it ends.

23 If you go to the last paragraph on this page, this: "We must

24 promise ourselves to do better this time than after Jasenovac." We know

25 your interest in Jasenovac. It goes on: "We must promise ourselves that

1 there will be a reckoning for the crimes committed by American fascism,

2 and that there will be a punishment extracted - in blood if need be..."

3 These your words, Mr. Lituchy?

4 A. Anyone who is guilty of crimes of genocide, yes, of course. Of

5 course. This is -- if -- if these are the crimes committed, then someone

6 should be published for those crimes. I believe -- I'm not opposed to the

7 death penalty, Mr. Nice.

8 Q. Two things then: The description of Clinton and the comparison

9 between him and Hitler is one you still stand by, is it?

10 A. There are many -- there are many comparisons to be made, and the

11 fact that both Hitler and Clinton tried to divide a unified Yugoslav state

12 and did so by promoting proxy armies that included fascists among them,

13 yes, absolutely. This is -- this is a very clear analogy.

14 Q. Let's not beat about the bush. You're saying here in terms, so

15 that we can follow you, as the serious historian you are, you're saying

16 here that Clinton is worse than Hitler. Is that really your view?

17 A. I don't believe that Hitler was guilty of sexual crimes.

18 Q. That's your answer, is it?

19 A. That's my -- that's my answer, yes.

20 Q. Let's just conclude then with focusing again on the last paragraph

21 and indeed the last words that I read out. "We must promise ourselves

22 that there will be a reckoning for the crimes committed by American

23 fascism and that there will be a punishment extracted - in blood if need

24 be..." What were you seeking to achieve by publishing, saying,

25 broadcasting, whatever it was, that sort of observation?

1 A. First of all, I don't know who published this. I made that clear

2 before. I mean, stand by these words. I think I did write this. I don't

3 know actually who published it, but I do believe I did write it, yes. So

4 let's correct that point.

5 Q. What shedding of blood, did you, Mr. Lituchy --

6 A. Oh, I see, I see. I see what you're saying. I've already

7 answered that question. I explained to you that I believe that the death

8 penalty is appropriate in crimes of genocide.

9 Q. That's shedding of blood, is it? Forgive me, I know there are

10 various brutal ways of killing people effected in various States in the

11 United States of America but I'm not sure that any of them sheds blood.

12 Do correct me if I'm wrong.

13 A. That's more of a metaphor for the death penalty.

14 Q. Is it, or are you lying to us?

15 A. Lying?

16 Q. Because by shedding blood -- Yes, lying, Mr. Lituchy.

17 A. That's absurd.

18 Q. Because by "shedding blood" you meant something entirely different

19 from the death penalty.

20 A. That's absurd.

21 Q. Is it?

22 A. No, that's absurd. But I will add this, I will add this: That

23 people deserve to be defended against crimes of genocide that they -- and

24 that may entail the shedding of blood, yes, absolutely.

25 Q. Let's have it: Is it the death penalty or is it the shedding of

1 blood?

2 A. Both.

3 Q. Both. Very well. What shedding of blood did you envisage in 1999

4 - I have the date again - as being justified, assuming that the date --

5 A. Defending people from crimes of genocide just precisely as the

6 crimes that I've documented here with the Romas and other refugees from

7 Kosovo.

8 Q. Do you realise the significance of the date, don't you?

9 A. What is the date? I didn't see it.

10 Q. This is -- the date this is June the 28th 1999. So that's just --

11 A. I don't recall -- I don't think that date is valid or is accurate.

12 I'm not sure when the date of this piece is because I didn't publish it,

13 but I do believe I -- somehow someone got a hold of this. I may have

14 written this, or I -- I'm really not sure. I don't know where this comes

15 from. You never told me where you got this from.

16 Q. Mr. Lituchy, we can only do our best with the Internet and we

17 can --

18 A. Is the Internet a reliable source? I think I'm more reliable than

19 the Internet. I'm here.

20 Q. Mr. Lituchy, you confirmed that the Internet is reliable because

21 you confirmed that these are your words and we took it off it. We can

22 only as to the date of the publication what the Internet provides.

23 A. The description is false.

24 Q. You --

25 A. The description is straight out false, so this is not valid. It

1 was not published by any -- by the history department of Kingsborough

2 College, so that's not accurate.

3 Q. Can you give us --

4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Lituchy, do you have anything to do with the

5 Communist Party of Australia?

6 THE WITNESS: That's a very good question Judge Kwon. That's a

7 very good question. I don't even know -- I don't even know anything about

8 the Communist Party of Australia.

9 JUDGE KWON: The address at the bottom of the page says that it

10 seems to be related to that institution.

11 THE WITNESS: I really don't know. I -- I -- I've never even

12 heard of the Communist Party of Australia. I assume there may very well

13 be one but I don't they anything about it. I don't know the first thing

14 about it, the Communist Party of Australia.

15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

16 MR. NICE:

17 Q. Can I turn now to the reliability of your interviews? First of

18 all, and I deal with this swiftly and compendiously, the document that we

19 have before us and as -- I'm not sure what decision the Court has made but

20 I'm focusing on pages 1 to 45 and 127 until the end of tab 1 because it

21 seems to me that the other part hadn't been spoken to and tab 2 has been

22 expressly not produced.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that's an accurate representation.

24 MR. NICE: I'm grateful.

25 Q. You had no investigator and no particular investigative skills.

1 How did you choose your interpreter?

2 A. We asked for -- we -- I don't recall exactly how we found her but

3 we -- through my contacts in Belgrade I asked for an interpreter for these

4 interviews. That's the best I can remember as far as that's concerned. I

5 believe it was through one of my colleagues in Belgrade.

6 Q. Did it occur to you that the interpreter might herself, as it

7 turned out to be, have views and interpose her judgement between question

8 and answer?

9 A. That was -- that -- I agree that was, regrettably, something we

10 couldn't quite control. We tried to stop her from doing that but we

11 didn't want -- we didn't want her to do that.

12 Q. So do you accept, do you, in the way that I think His Honour Judge

13 Robinson observed, it was clear she wasn't doing straight translation

14 because she -- she leapt in before questions were completed and sometimes

15 gave very short answers where there had been a great deal of speech from

16 the person being spoken to.

17 A. I believe that the translations were a fair and accurate

18 representation of what people were saying, but it is also true -- you see

19 it doesn't have to be either/or, Mr. Nice. It can be -- it's both. It's

20 both the fact that the translations were accurate and fair representations

21 of what people were saying and also that she interposed things that she

22 had no right and no business interposing, and it was very annoying to me.

23 Q. I asked you if this was the serious work of scholarship, as it

24 were -- I didn't use the word "scholarship." You confirmed that it was

25 serious work. If you knew certainly before coming to this court that what

1 she had said was not free of her own intervention, why did you not arrange

2 for the transcript to be properly transcribed by an independent -- sorry,

3 why did you not arrange for the tape to be properly transcribed by an

4 independent and neutral interpreter?

5 A. Actually I didn't know that I was going to be -- I didn't make

6 this transcript for this Court, but I did -- had I been more aware of when

7 I was going to -- if I was going to testify, when I was going to be --

8 when I was going to testify -- I didn't have the time or the resources at

9 the time to -- to do that. But yes, I absolutely did want to do that and

10 I think it -- it was certainly on my agenda to do, yes.

11 Q. In the event, and unless the matter had been drawn to the Court's

12 attention, both by the accused and by me, this transcript would have gone

13 in without correction, wouldn't it?

14 A. No, that's not true.

15 Q. Did you draw to our attention that it was false?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When?

18 A. Oh, I thought you said would I have. Yes, I would have.

19 Q. No, did you?

20 A. No, I didn't.

21 Q. Well, why not?

22 A. Because it was already -- it was brought up immediately by

23 President Milosevic before.

24 Q. Coincidentally while you use the term "President Milosevic," it

25 reminds me: I've only been able to research so much of your material from

1 open sources, and I may have missed it, but your Serb -- your personal

2 Serbian background isn't referred to in any of your public writings?

3 A. That's because I'm not a Serbian nationalist.

4 Q. Do you not think when seeking to change world events by expression

5 of opinions in the way that you do that it might have been preferable and

6 fairer to reveal that you have a Serb historical connection?

7 A. No, I don't think that that's necessary. I don't think -- I don't

8 think one has to identify what one's national -- one's ancestors are. The

9 human race originated in Africa. We're all Africans too. I mean, we

10 can't -- it would be extremely unfair and it's not -- it's certainly no

11 scientific requirement that one identify one's ethnic heritage in any kind

12 of writing or research. I've never heard of such a -- such an idea before

13 actually. This is -- this is --

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Lituchy, how far back does your Serb

15 ancestry go?

16 THE WITNESS: I'm a native-born US citizens. My parents are

17 native-born US citizens. Two of my grandparents are of Serbian

18 background.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thanks. Thank you.

20 Mr. Milosevic, you had wanted to say something?

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I wanted to put Mr. Nice

22 right. He said that you drew attention to the problem with the

23 translation in the transcript. I drew attention to the translation, the

24 problems with the translation, and precisely that was the reason that I

25 emphasised that the exhibit I'm tendering is the tape and not the

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13 English transcripts.

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1 transcript, which has serious defects. And I'm sure you'll be able to

2 find that passage in the transcript of my having said that.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: I give you full credit for that, Mr. Milosevic.

4 What Mr. Nice attributed to me was also accurate.

5 Mr. Nice, we have to take a break now, and we'll adjourn for 20

6 minutes.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask a question for technical

8 reasons? Is Mr. Nice going to finish before the end of business today so

9 that I can know for my next witness?

10 MR. NICE: The next session is how long?

11 JUDGE KWON: Seventy minutes.

12 MR. NICE: Seventy minutes. I would certainly hope to finish

13 before the next session. I know the topics I have to deal with. There

14 are only about two in the nature of things because amongst other things I

15 want to point you to some of the shortcomings of the transcript. It will

16 be closer to the end of the next session.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Twenty minutes.

18 --- Recess taken at 12.54 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 1.16 p.m.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice to continue.

21 MR. NICE: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Mr. Lituchy, we'll go through your document in broad fashion,

23 please, just to remind ourselves what it amounts to. Pages 2, 3, 4, 5,

24 and 6 there is preface we haven't focused on that, I'm not going to

25 trouble you with it. Page 8 is a press release. Again, I'm not

1 interested in that. Page 9 and in between pages 9 and 13 we have an

2 interview with Bratislava Morina. Now as a matter of history, Bratislava

3 Morina is the wife, or was the wife, now widow of Rrahman Morina, who

4 replaced Vllasi when he was forced out of office, didn't she? Didn't he,

5 rather.

6 A. Are you asking me?

7 Q. Yes, I am.

8 A. Oh, yes.

9 Q. And her husband, or her late husband, was indeed a fully loyal

10 supporter of this accused and indeed -- well, yes or no.

11 A. Yes, yes, of course.

12 Q. And was brought in to replace Vllasi when Vllasi's independence of

13 mind was troublesome, yes?

14 A. Well, that part I don't know.

15 Q. Because this is not a woman I've been able to make any contact

16 with, I'm not going to ask you any questions about the content of what she

17 says because I can't deal with it save just for this: You say that you

18 had no cooperation with or assistance, I think, by ministry bodies or by

19 Serb bodies in your inquiry, but if you go to page 12, please --

20 A. No, no, wait a second. You're misrepresenting what I said.

21 Q. In which case, if I'm misunderstanding it, you must put us right,

22 because it's quite clear from page 12, in the middle of the page, that the

23 Ministry of Foreign Affairs is entirely at your disposal, isn't it?

24 A. I was referring to the interviews of refugees. That's precisely

25 what I was talking about, that's what I was questioning about. We did not

1 receive any help from the government in that regard, no. But as far as

2 other -- yes, we did have some, we did have assistance as far as some of

3 the other interviews, but not with the refugees, no.

4 Q. And indeed when -- if we look on the same page, page 12 a little

5 further down, "Lituchy: I think we would like to visit a refugee camp, if

6 that's possible, particularly a refugee camp that was hit by NATO

7 bombing." That was something, what, that the Foreign Ministry or Ministry

8 of Refugees --

9 A. They didn't organise it.

10 Q. They didn't?

11 A. No.

12 Q. But they were prepared to do anything they could to help you?

13 A. I don't know if I'd agree with that but because they didn't help

14 us as far as the refugees were concerned. I mean, it's true -- I mean, I

15 don't want to -- with all respect to Mrs. Morina, I don't -- you know, I

16 -- but still we didn't get any help as far as interviewing the refugees,

17 no. That's definite.

18 Q. You were known, however, wherever you went as being an

19 investigation that was against NATO; correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And associated with the then Serb government; correct?

22 A. No. Not necessarily, no. That's not necessarily true.

23 Q. To be against NATO would be to be siding, in a simple analysis of

24 events, with the Serb government, wouldn't it?

25 A. Well, the problem is that that's too simple, yes, you're right.