1 Wednesday, 9 February 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

7 MR. NICE: Following yesterday's discussion on procedure --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

9 MR. NICE: I've asked for the witness to be kept out briefly

10 because following yesterday's discussion on procedure, we researched the

11 law to see if there was any guidance of assistance. There's quite a

12 number of first instance decisions which go several -- which go both ways.

13 There are arguably two decisions in the Appeals Chamber of assistance; one

14 the Appeals Chamber from the ICTR, one the Appeals Chamber from the ICTY,

15 and one decision at first instance that we would like to draw to your

16 attention. I'm happy to deal with it now or, depending on what plans the

17 Chamber had made for dealing with the documents we looked at yesterday, at

18 a later stage.

19 If we deal with it now, having printed copies or extracts from the

20 three judgements and there are only three short passages, one in each

21 judgement to be referred to, those copies aren't yet with us but we --

22 they are with us, and alternatively, we can deal with it rapidly by

23 putting it on the overhead projector. So I'm in Your Honours' hands.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: How much longer will you be with this witness?

1 MR. NICE: Not very much. I would hope to finish in the first

2 session.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll hear the evidence. We'll hear the evidence

4 without making any decision on those evidential points.

5 Mr. Milosevic, yes.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just wish to tell you the

7 following: Since in relation to the question that you're discussing right

8 now, Mr. Nice yesterday mentioned a few persons who played an active role

9 in this context, and he asked Mr. Balevic about them. One of these

10 persons, perhaps the most prominent one among them that Mr. Nice mentioned

11 yesterday is Kosta Bulatovic, and I wish to inform you that Kosta

12 Bulatovic is on the witness list. He is on the list of witnesses. So you

13 will have an opportunity of hearing his testimony. Therefore, I think

14 that this is pointless to ask someone about statements given to the press,

15 what the newspapers wrote about ages ago.

16 I'm not going to use the word "group." I'm not going to say

17 "among this group," but -- because I don't think there was a group, but

18 among these activists, he was perhaps the most prominent one.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: I need not remind you, Mr. Milosevic, it's a

20 strategy that you yourself employed at times in cross-examination, but we

21 have to determine the issue. Let us hear the evidence.

22 MR. NICE: I'm grateful to hear Kosta Bulatovic is going to come.

23 It will probably help me tailor the questions I'm going to ask this

24 witness.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Have the witness brought in.

1 MR. NICE: While that's being done, as a matter of detail, we're

2 still awaiting a prospective forthcoming witness list. I hope it's going

3 to be with us shortly because planning is becoming a little tricky.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you will take note of that.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 WITNESS: MITAR BALEVIC [Resumed]

7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice: [Continued]

9 Q. Mr. Balevic, some questions that may be answered and dealt with

10 very briefly, just yes or no: Following the demonstrations by students in

11 1981, were you aware of, did you ever read the petition that the students

12 submitted in respect of the punishments that had been meted out to them?

13 A. No.

14 Q. In January 1986, there was a petition signed by many Serbs

15 complaining of the position, and it's a petition that relates to the

16 activity of the group of people we've been discussing. Did you -- you

17 didn't sign the petition. Did you see the petition yourself ever?

18 A. No.

19 MR. NICE: Your Honour, those matters can be dealt with by the

20 other witness, and I shan't even attempt to deal with them through this

21 witness.

22 Q. You told us -- and I'm afraid because of a slight change of plan I

23 may not have organised Ms. Dicklich's assistance in the way that I

24 ordinarily would have done, but you told us yesterday that you attended

25 the one demonstration in Nis.

1 MR. NICE: Your Honours, just give me one minute.

2 Your Honours, can I save time? Lay on the overhead projector --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

4 MR. NICE: Can I save time? Lay on the overhead projector a

5 printout from The Independent newspaper via a website from the 26th of

6 September, 1998. And it's in English. We see the first page showing the

7 date. If we could have the second page, please.

8 Q. The press reported, Mr. Balevic, on the rally in Nis as follows:

9 "Saturday's rally in the south Serbian city of Nis involved some 150.000

10 people, according to unbiased accounts, and was one of the largest

11 demonstrations seen in Yugoslavia. Those most outspokenly critical of the

12 rallies, like the leaders of the prosperous Western Republic of Slovenia

13 were, as is now routine, branded as supporters of the 'separatists and

14 counter-revolutionaries' allegedly holding sway in Kosovo. 'For a

15 tomorrow without those who destroyed yesterday,' said one banner."

16 Now, was the demonstration in which you participated in Nis as

17 large as 150.000 people?

18 A. Mr. Nice, I was in Nis at the rally where President Slobodan

19 Milosevic spoke. As for what you've been saying, I don't know anything

20 about that. These were not demonstrations. This was a rally, as far as

21 I'm concerned. Demonstrations are when people walk down a street, get

22 engaged in destruction, and so on.

23 Mr. Milosevic spoke there and there was no incident whatsoever.

24 What you say about Slovenia and the Slovenian leaders, for Slovenia,

25 Kosovo and Metohija was a marginal matter. It was completely on the

1 sidelines. They were not interested in it at all, the situation there and

2 the drama of the Serbs and Montenegrins in Kosovo. As a matter of fact,

3 they supported Albanian separatism.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Nice, let me make an observation at this stage

5 because it may be of relevance to the later debate, and I don't want to

6 lose sight of it.

7 You had a very simple question there about how many people were at

8 the rally. That question, in my opinion, did not require this document to

9 be read, and by reading the document you rather inflamed the witness to

10 respond to all the various things in there about which inevitably he

11 doesn't agree, and I don't think that that is a very productive way of

12 cross-examining a witness like this. And it does raise questions, I

13 think, over the value of using this kind of documentation in the course of

14 cross-examination.

15 MR. NICE: Your Honour --

16 JUDGE BONOMY: It's a comment for the moment so that we don't

17 waste -- and please ignore it and continue to examine as you consider

18 appropriate, but it's so that you have it in mind when we come to the

19 debate.

20 MR. NICE: Your Honour, yes, and of course I put the document in

21 because it deals with other matters, and one of them I do wish to ask the

22 witness about. As to the 150.000 people, I haven't had an answer.

23 Q. But help us, please, with this, Mr. Balevic: Was Mr. Solevic with

24 you at the time of this rally?

25 A. At that rally, when I came there, I didn't see Mr. Solevic. There

1 was a rally before that in Nis, though. I was at the rally where Slobodan

2 Milosevic spoke, and I cannot say that there were 150.000 people there.

3 It was held in front of the theatre, and I don't think that that area can

4 really receive 150.000 people. So I cannot claim that. As for Solevic, I

5 did not see him at the rally.

6 Q. Were you at about this time in contact with Solevic?

7 A. No.

8 MR. NICE: Your Honours, we may come back to this topic with the

9 other witness who is going to be able to deal with it. The particular

10 passage I was interested in but in light of His Honour Judge Bonomy's

11 observation won't pursue is at the foot of this page. I don't think you

12 can actually see it on the overhead projector, we'll come back to it

13 later, but there was an integrated purpose in looking at this document as

14 normally when I'm looking at documents of this kind.

15 Can we move on, then, please, and I forecast that this will be on

16 the same basis as -- if at all, as production of the documents yesterday,

17 to look at --

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I get a copy of this Independent

21 article that Mr. Nice quoted from a few moments ago.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

23 MR. NICE: Certainly. And indeed the last paragraph on the page

24 to which I was going to refer is something that might qualify on one

25 reckoning as Rule 68 material, which is one of the reasons I was going to

1 draw it to the attention of the Court. So it's available for the accused

2 to raise in re-examination. If he chooses to.

3 Q. Can we now, please, on the same basis I would forecast, if at all,

4 look at some extracts from The Death of Yugoslavia film which are stripped

5 of all commentary and cover the build-up to and the events at the meeting

6 on April 1987.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: What are you hoping to extract from the witness?

8 MR. NICE: I'm hoping to extract from the witness that he agrees

9 with many of the things that are said.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well.

11 MR. NICE: If we have the extracts. And the blank pages that Your

12 Honours will see reflect editorial commentary that has now been excised so

13 that all that you're left with is the words of the individual participants

14 speaking to the commentator, I think, if anything else.

15 The way it's being presented by Ms. Dicklich makes it possible for

16 us to pause within the clip, as we will describe it.

17 Q. And before we start, you told us, Mr. Balevic, of the visit that

18 was planned -- sorry, the visit that was made by President Stambolic the

19 year before, in 1986, a visit that was not regarded as successful by the

20 Kosovo Serbs; is that correct?

21 A. Correct. As a form of protest, they left when he was making this

22 speech in front of the Braca Krajinovic hall, because before that, a

23 meeting was held inside where he spoke. But they were dissatisfied with

24 his speech - there were a few thousand citizens in front of the building -

25 so they left in protest because they expected Ivan Stambolic to say there

1 which measures he's going to take as president within the scope of his

2 authority in the Republic of Serbia and in Yugoslavia in order to stop the

3 moving out of Serbs and Montenegrins and to ensure their safety and

4 security.

5 Q. Thank you. If Ms. Dicklich could start the tape, please.

6 [Videotape played]

7 MR. NICE:

8 Q. As a matter of detail, I think we see you standing beside the

9 accused on the right; is that correct?

10 A. I can't see it.

11 MR. NICE: Pause there, please.

12 Q. This is the man Solevic; correct?

13 A. Could you please show me where I am? You said that I was standing

14 next to Slobodan Milosevic. I would only be too pleased to be standing

15 next to him. But where am I?

16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nice, the Sanction and the monitor of the video

17 shows different things. Yes. Now it's okay.

18 MR. NICE: Perhaps we'd better go back to the beginning, Your

19 Honour. Ms. Dicklich will play her clip and I hope we're all seeing it.

20 I will forget the point about standing next door and we'll just get on --

21 oh, here we are.

22 [Videotape played]

23 MR. NICE:

24 Q. Just pausing there, is that you standing beside Mr. Milosevic or

25 not?

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 A. Yes, it's me.

2 Q. All right. Let's move to the next section.

3 A. It was on the 20th of April, 1987.

4 Q. This is the man Solevic?

5 A. This is Solevic.

6 Q. All right.

7 MR. NICE: Play it, please. I must check that the -- pause there.

8 Q. Is Mr. Solevic correct in saying that the accused had no initial

9 intention of meeting the Serbs, on your understanding?

10 A. That statement of his is not correct. If it pertains to

11 Mr. Milosevic, that is. Or do you mean Ivan Stambolic? Could you please

12 tell me very specifically?

13 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... the accused. So you say that

14 from the very first day he was willing to come and speak to you? He

15 didn't have to be compelled?

16 A. I can say the following: From the 16th of April, when I informed

17 him and I invited him to come to a meeting, that is what I can talk about.

18 I don't know what his feelings were before that. I do not recall any of

19 that. I first spoke to him on the 16th of April, so --

20 Q. Thank you. Move on.

21 [Videotape played]

22 MR. NICE: Pausing there.

23 Q. Is what we've been looking at the accused speaking on the first

24 visit on the 20th of April?

25 A. The image is blurred, so I cannot even confirm where it is that

1 he's speaking. You can see the school here. The school is opposite --

2 or, rather, he was speaking from a place that was opposite the school. So

3 I cannot confirm the venue.

4 I have to add one more thing, though. The rally in Nis, I think,

5 was dedicated to a particular anniversary, so it was not a rally like the

6 ones that were held before that, as far as I can remember, and I think

7 that my memory serves me well. I cannot confirm where this is.

8 Q. Very well.

9 A. I can't really tell from this picture because I can't see the

10 school.

11 Q. Move on.

12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nice, we don't have voice here, do we?

13 MR. NICE: No. He has the voice. I hope he has the voice.

14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Balevic, were you able to hear the sound in this

15 clip?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

17 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

18 MR. NICE: We understood that the sound was going to the witness.

19 I don't know --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you, but I can't hear

21 this. I can just see the images.

22 [Videotape played]

23 MR. NICE: That's better. Pause there.

24 Q. I hope, Mr. Balevic, you heard that. Is it right, as Solevic

25 says, that the accused was invited to return on the basis --

1 A. I don't know about this.

2 Q. Very well.

3 A. I don't know about this. I don't remember this, this contact

4 between Solevic and Milosevic. I cannot remember that.

5 [Videotape played]

6 MR. NICE:

7 Q. Is it right that at certainly the first meeting and even at the

8 second the accused stuck to the traditional brotherhood and unity line?

9 A. It was not the usual line. It was his policy, his official policy

10 in favour of brotherhood and unity of the peoples in Kosovo. It was not

11 the usual line, though.

12 [Videotape played]

13 MR. NICE: Thank you. Pause there. The next bit couldn't be cut,

14 Your Honours, without cutting out Borisav Jovic's comment. We will pass

15 through it quickly when we reactivate the tape.

16 Q. But tell me this, please, Mr. Balevic: We hear there Mr. Jovic

17 saying that the first person to stand up and to say we must stop the

18 oppression of the Serbs had the way to the top. Was that your

19 understanding, that the accused, by supporting those who were complaining

20 of oppression of the Serbs, made for himself a way to the top?

21 A. No. No. He confirmed this course because he placed himself at

22 the helm of the massive request from Serbs in Kosovo and Metohija for

23 their very survival. It wasn't any kind of leadership. It's not that

24 Milosevic called us. We called him to come to Kosovo.

25 Q. Very well. We'll advance through the somewhat realistic beheading

1 and get to the next passage.

2 [Videotape played]

3 MR. NICE: Pause.

4 Q. This is Dusan Mitrovic, now dead. He died shortly after of, I

5 think, cancer. And he was the deputy head of Belgrade television;

6 correct?

7 A. I'm not aware of that. I never had any contact with him. I don't

8 know. I know he was on television, but otherwise I had no contacts with

9 him at all, nothing to do with him.

10 [Videotape played]

11 MR. NICE:

12 Q. This is Azem Vllasi, communist leader at the time until he was

13 removed from office and imprisoned, correct?

14 A. Yes. He was the president of the provincial committee. He was a

15 Tito youngster. And unfortunately, later on he toppled the state that

16 Tito had created. And he was a Tito person in his youth.

17 Q. Now, do you remember yesterday that I asked you whether between

18 the first and second meeting there was any contacts between the accused

19 and those of you down in Kosovo? And I'd like you to listen to the

20 following with that in mind.

21 [Videotape played]

22 MR. NICE: Pause there, please.

23 Q. Seeing those two passages, is there any reason to doubt that the

24 accused may have sent someone down between the first and second meetings

25 to arrange what was to happen?

1 A. I'm not aware of him having sent anybody there between the first

2 and second meeting. I had nothing to do with him, no contacts with him

3 between the first and second meeting at all.

4 Q. You -- you were a --

5 A. Please. But the first meeting was a rally. The second was a

6 meeting held in a closed room. So there are not two rallies, just one

7 meeting, one of which was held behind closed doors.

8 Q. Now, you've made a point of the fact that you're not one of the

9 group itself, even if you once went with some members of the group to see

10 Dizdarevic. Do you exclude the possibility or do you allow for the

11 possibility that the accused may indeed have sent somebody down to deal

12 with people such as Solevic?

13 A. As far as I remember, nobody from that group with us went to see

14 Dizdarevic, but I allow for the fact that you might wish to check it out.

15 As far as I remember and as far as my memory serves me, that's how it was,

16 because yesterday I used this as a reminder, as an aide-memoire, and I was

17 cautioned by Mr. Robinson that I was reading. I wasn't actually reading,

18 I just used it to refresh my memory. But as I say, I myself don't

19 remember that anybody from the group was there with us when we went to see

20 Dizdarevic, and I have been repeating this several times, that is that I

21 did not belong to that group myself.

22 Q. I'll deal with that in a second.

23 [Videotape played]

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I should just like to draw your

2 attention to this: I am listening to what these various individuals here

3 are saying and I can see the translation at the bottom, and let me tell

4 you that the translation is not very correct. Vllasi, speaking in

5 Albanian, says that Milosevic sent the executive secretary. I can hear

6 him saying this in Albanian, "ekzekutiv sekretar," "executive secretary."

7 And I assume that "ekzekutiv" means "executive" in Albanian too. And then

8 the translation said, or the caption said, "He sent a private secretary."

9 I didn't have a private secretary. I had a lady secretary. Now, what

10 Vllasi says should at least be translated from the Albanian to English

11 correctly, just as one should translate correctly what is said in Serbian

12 by others in the captions.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, is this intended to be a faithful

14 translation or paraphrase?

15 MR. NICE: It's the translation that's provided by the company

16 that made the tapes. May I propose that we run the tape, not now but

17 afterwards, through another -- with other translators and it can be given

18 an authoritative translation in that way.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: We take account of the point made by

21 Mr. Milosevic, but you can go on.

22 MR. NICE: Thank you very much.

23 [Videotape played]

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Example, Mr. Robinson. For example,

25 there we have an example. Solevic here is explaining that they had

1 brought in some material to expand the pavement, and I just heard him say

2 and Mr. Balevic heard him say that and anybody else who was listening. He

3 said that was brought in to expand and broaden the pavement. It wasn't

4 intended for the police. That's what he is explaining, but you can't see

5 that in the translation. In the translation, there's just an abridged

6 version, a hodgepodge of what was said, if I can put it that way.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, we may be obliged to consider adopting

8 the course that you suggested.

9 MR. NICE: I'm grateful.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, as this point may be important, could

12 we have it played -- run it again and let us have the interpreters

13 translate it.

14 MR. NICE: Certainly.

15 [Videotape played]

16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter here in the Albanian booth

17 cannot hear the Albanian. When he tries to speak into English, it gets

18 cut off.

19 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "[Previous translation continues]...

20 have time. It's Friday, Monday. We have Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday to

21 get ready. Just three days. Each of us going in our own way to meet

22 people, to have a look -- to talk to them, to organise ourselves. We said

23 all these lads who can fight properly should take everything they need.

24 "MR. SOLEVIC: We unloaded two tractor trailers to broaden the

25 pavement, yes, broaden the pavement. It wasn't for the police. It was

1 just there in case.

2 "SPEAKER: I want to live here where my mother lived. I want to

3 be buried here in this soil where --"

4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters apologise but the speed of the

5 tape is too fast for interpretation.

6 MR. NICE:

7 Q. Just go back to the first passage. You saw what --

8 JUDGE KWON: Microphone.

9 MR. NICE:

10 Q. You heard what Solevic said about parking lorries for broadening

11 the pavement but just in case. Was it, as I suggested to you, the case

12 that there were preparations made to generate a conflict to which the

13 accused could respond?

14 A. That's not true. And I'm hearing about these lorries or trailers

15 for the first time, and those bricks, and it's just not true. And

16 secondly, I was in the hall, so I wasn't able to see what was going on

17 outside, whether there are any stones or not, but this observation is

18 incorrect, and this is the first time that I'm hearing it --

19 Q. Very well. Let's move on.

20 A. -- that any kind of preparations were being carried out.

21 Q. Without translation for this passage. We've had this before in

22 the accused's evidence, I think.

23 [Videotape played]

24 MR. NICE: If the interpreters could interpret this.

25 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "We don't know what was going on.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 Our people started fleeing, and this encouraged the police and they

2 started running after us until we got to the -- they got to the stones and

3 then we turned round. So everybody got a gift like that on their -- on

4 the helmet. And then we went up to Milosevic again and said the police

5 outside are beating our people and then he couldn't pass this hot potato

6 to anybody else. He had to go out himself, and he was probably rather

7 afraid and nervous because he knew what was going on and what this meant."

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] For example, Mr. Robinson, another

9 example. You can hear here that they're saying to me, "They're beating

10 us." And then you can hear my voice saying, "Nobody must be allowed to

11 beat you," whereas the translation at the bottom of the caption says,

12 "Nobody must beat you again." The word "again" doesn't exist anywhere.

13 They say, "They're beating us," and I say, "Nobody must be allowed to beat

14 you." That's all, and that's quite logical. It goes -- it follows on one

15 from the other. Now, who added the word "again," you will have to ask

16 your employees about that or, rather, Mr. Nice over there.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's a good example.

18 MR. NICE: The matter we discussed yesterday. I'm grateful for

19 the observation and it doesn't come, I think, entirely as a surprise. Can

20 we move on, just get to the end of the clip, and then I'll ask my

21 question.

22 [Videotape played]

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 MR. NICE: Was that bit translated?

1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters apologise but they cannot

2 translate from the tape. It's much too fast and indistinct except for

3 bits and pieces.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: May I ask the interpreters, did they not hear the

5 "You will not be beaten?"

6 THE INTERPRETER: We heard the "You will not be beaten," yes, but

7 I can't guarantee for any other sections.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: And was there any "again" in that sentence? I'm

9 asking the interpreters.

10 THE INTERPRETER: No, there wasn't.

11 MR. NICE: Just on to the end, please --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a second.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, I'm going to ask the interpreters,

15 would you have the video played again from the point where Mr. Milosevic

16 came out, and I'd like them to attend as closely as possible to the --

17 that part of his speech concerning beating, I think on two occasions. If

18 we could have as close a translation as possible.

19 [Videotape played]

20 THE INTERPRETER: As far as the interpreter heard, there was no

21 "again" on both occasions.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Yes.

23 MR. NICE: We can press on.

24 [Videotape played]

25 MR. NICE:

1 Q. Mr. Balevic, having looked at --

2 JUDGE KWON: Microphone.

3 MR. NICE: Thank you.

4 Q. Mr. Balevic, having looked at those observations by the people who

5 we know, I come again to the question: Was there not at this meeting an

6 element of planning in order to give the accused an opportunity to lead

7 the Serbs who were making complaint at the meeting you'd organised?

8 A. I say with full responsibility that it is the first time that I'm

9 hearing Solevic here and now talking about some construction work and

10 preparations for construction work and bringing in material to place an

11 asphalt layer on a road. So this construction material and bricks I can

12 say with full responsibility I never saw, and I heard it for the first

13 time here. No preparations were conducted -- and I have to state once

14 again, Mr. Milosevic, when he came out on two occasions, because I was

15 standing next to him, and as far as I heard him, the first time he said,

16 "Nobody must be allowed to beat you." And the second time, "Nobody must

17 beat." And then Miodrag Trifovic, who is the son, the grey-haired man, he

18 is the uncle of Dragan Trifovic who was killed in the Panda cafe, and he

19 was beaten.

20 Q. Finally --

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, can I understand clearly what you're

22 putting to the witness. You're saying that this was planned cynically.

23 MR. NICE: Certainly.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Cynically. So the accused could emerge as a

25 leader. And in this melee people would be injured. Are you saying that

1 all that was planned? Is that your case?

2 MR. NICE: Your Honour, at the moment and until if he comes as a

3 witness, he comes as a witness, or if they come as witnesses in due

4 course, I'm dependent on material both from the words of Solevic, which

5 are amplified in considerable detail in what he says in other parts of the

6 complete interview, which can be made available, and I'm dependent on the

7 words of Vllasi, also contained in the full interview and in other texts,

8 which would suggest that there was certainly an element of planning

9 between the two meetings and quite possibly an element of planning before

10 the first meeting.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no, not just planning. Your case is not just

12 that there was planning for the meeting but planning in such a way that

13 there would be a disturbance in which people might be injured and out of

14 which --

15 MR. NICE: Certainly.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- the accused would emerge as a leader.

17 MR. NICE: That is the clear effect of what Solevic is saying, and

18 that is a possibility that indeed we are countenancing, yes.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Solevic doesn't say that at all.

22 What Mr. Nice is claiming, Solevic did not say at all. He just thought it

23 up, just as he thought up the planning of a joint enterprise. That's his

24 speciality. And it's a great shame here that he is operating with things

25 like that.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you'll have a time to make

2 comments when you --

3 MR. NICE:

4 Q. Just to make my position absolutely clear through a question I've

5 asked before of the witness but I'll now ask again, in light of His Honour

6 Judge Robinson's concern and arising from things that Solevic has said

7 specifically, do you have any knowledge, Mr. Balevic, of strong young Serb

8 men armed with pistols being arranged to be present in the crowd on that

9 occasion to turn to violence if necessary?

10 A. I have no knowledge of that kind at all. I claim that that is

11 incorrect, that it was all construed and staged in order to proclaim the

12 meeting, the rally, or, rather, to create incidents breaking out and to

13 lead to chaos. So that observation in your question to me is incorrect,

14 and you're basing it on Solevic and Vllasi whereas I'm basing my testimony

15 on the facts that I saw and were able to follow, and I'm not basing it on

16 Solevic and Vllasi.

17 Q. Unless Solevic ever attends as a witness here, can you think of

18 any reason why Solevic, from whom you parted company later in 1998, or

19 separated generally, can you think of any reason why he should make such

20 things up, so we can know it now?

21 A. I don't know what year we parted ways ideologically. We didn't

22 see eye-to-eye. But I think it would be a good idea if you were to ask

23 him to come here and then he would be able to tell you about those ideas

24 and the statements, because I don't know what his ideas were and what his

25 statements meant. I cannot interpret them.

1 The best thing would be for him to tell you here from this seat.

2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nice, can you tell us why Mr. Solevic was not in

3 the witness list in Kosovo case?

4 MR. NICE: There were a number of people who might have been on

5 the witness list but of course we didn't call for all sorts of reasons. I

6 don't know that Solevic was even available to us at that time or whether

7 he will be available to us now. I can make efforts now. But at that --

8 JUDGE KWON: But you were aware of this film at that time.

9 MR. NICE: Yes, we were certainly aware of the film at that time,

10 but our efforts at that time, I think, were concentrated on other

11 witnesses like, for example, Vllasi, and we didn't go to this witness at

12 that time, no. But those are the choices that one makes, and sometimes

13 witnesses become more obviously relevant and valuable at a later stage,

14 and it's the broadening of the -- it's the broadening of the case by the

15 accused in relation to this meeting that makes this particularly relevant.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: This concept of an accused broadening his case is

17 new to me. The accused has a right to --

18 MR. NICE: Of course.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- to put his Defence.

20 MR. NICE: I have no objection to it at all, as I've made

21 absolutely clear. I don't object to it.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's a definitional contradiction [Realtime

23 transcript read in error "definition contradiction"].

24 MR. NICE: Absolutely.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: The accused can't broaden his case, he puts his

1 case.

2 MR. NICE: He puts his case and he puts it in a particular way, it

3 may have the effect of broadening the matters into which we have to look

4 in detail. We presented evidence about this meeting in a fairly narrow

5 way. It's now wider, and that's why we're looking into it.

6 Your Honours, with your leave, may I move on to something that the

7 witness will want we to deal with. I was going to overlook it, although

8 I've referred to it, but in light of his question --

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: I just saw something here. I said it's a

10 definitional contradiction.

11 MR. NICE: And since what I want to put to the witness is arguably

12 favourable to the witness as well, and since he's raised it, I'd better

13 put it although it was going to be something I was going to cut to save

14 time. Can he have, please, an extract from Raif Dizdarevic's book which

15 deals with the meeting, he having questioned the composition of the group

16 that went to see Dizdarevic, who is, I think, still alive but elderly.

17 Q. Mr. Balevic, this is the passage I referred to right at the

18 beginning of my cross-examination of you where you're described as

19 moderate or moderate in comparison. You've asked me about the composition

20 of the meeting as reflected in the book and that's why I'm taking the time

21 to deal with it. You'll see on the first page -- if Mr. Prendergast could

22 put it on, the first page, on the overhead projector.

23 "Late at night on the 24th of February, Petar Gracanin called me

24 on the telephone. He said that a delegation of Serbs and Montenegrins

25 from Kosovo were in Belgrade. They had come in a serious and

1 representative composition and asked to talk to me and at the General

2 Staff. I said that those in Serbia talk to them and see what this was all

3 about, and only after that information, I would give my answer. After

4 awhile, he called me again and asked me to see the delegation. The

5 situation in Kosovo, he said, was dramatic and they were all asking to

6 talk to me. Also he himself asked me that and the leadership of Serbia as

7 well. After that I saw the delegation at around midnight and spoke with

8 them for more than two hours in the presence of Gracanin. It was led by

9 Balevic, a party official from Kosovo Polje, who at the time was known as

10 a moderate liner in comparison with Solevic, Kecman and other extremists

11 from Kosovo.

12 "To my question, 'Why are there no Albanians among you?' Balevic

13 answered that 'At this time it is hard to be together.'

14 "They told me the reasons for their arrival."

15 So you see, the way that Dizdarevic sets out the meeting,

16 Mr. Balevic, he doesn't identify beyond giving your name, I think, the

17 composition of the group. Do you see?

18 A. Mr. Nice, you have complicated things here. It's true that I was

19 a moderate. It is true that we asked to familiarise him with the

20 situation in Kosovo and Metohija. When he says more moderate than Solevic

21 and others, he doesn't claim that Solevic was at that meeting. Please

22 read the whole list and tell me, where does it say that Solevic went to

23 see Dizdarevic. As far as I know, he didn't. But he had some background

24 information, and on the basis of that he decided that I was more moderate

25 than Solevic. However, as to the composition of the group, you can read

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 the list and find out who was there and who wasn't.

2 Q. The point is the list isn't there, which is why I'm drawing it to

3 your attention.

4 Having seen that passage of what he says, and we can see the rest

5 of the summary of the meeting --

6 A. You will find it in Dizdarevic's protocol service.

7 MR. NICE: Your Honours, I'm -- for want of time I'm happy for the

8 document to be exhibited. I'm happy for it to fulfil any other function,

9 but --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Is the question simply whether the witness was

11 there?

12 MR. NICE: It's a question whether he was there, whether he's in a

13 position now that he's seen, because he asked us to say how it was

14 recorded, whether he's in a position now to help us further with the

15 composition of that meeting, because the group of people to whom I've been

16 referring is Solevic and others.

17 Q. And Mr. Balevic, can you help us further? Look at the detail or

18 the record of the meeting if it's going to prompt your memory. Can you

19 help us further with whom you went to as the head of this delegation?

20 A. I can't tell you all the people who was there. There was myself,

21 Djuro Bauk, Ljubo Vujevic. I don't know else was there. It was a long

22 time ago.

23 We acquainted Dizdarevic first with a message sent to him by

24 Gracanin about the dramatic situation in Kosovo and Metohija, and it was

25 really dramatic because 10.000 people were waiting outside in the street

1 for us to come back and report to them. And I underline one of those who

2 spoke, Ljubo Vujovic, asked Dizdarevic how long would it take the army to

3 get out of the barracks and intervene, and he replied, "I believe three or

4 four hours." And our response was, "If it's anything more than 15

5 minutes, it will be too late."

6 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the other reason I wanted the witness to

7 have on balance an opportunity to look at this is because I said at the

8 beginning that he'd once been described as more moderate and in the

9 circumstances of the challenges I'm making to him it seemed fair that he

10 should see where I derived that from.

11 Can we move on, and Your Honours, can I explain what I'm going to

12 do. The witness has given some observations about matters of demography.

13 I understand from the accused's proposed witness list that he's going to

14 call a demographer himself, and there's still the outstanding issue of the

15 demographic evidence that was cut off at the time of the conclusion of the

16 Prosecution's case, so I shall deal with matters of demography through

17 experts rather than with this witness.

18 Q. However, there's one matter of detail that you can assist us with,

19 please, Mr. Balevic. You've spoken of a place called Klina, which is hard

20 for us to find. Does it have an another name, Glina? Is it the same as

21 the place Glina?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. All right, that's all I need.

24 A. No, it's not the same thing. Glina is somewhere in Bosnia and

25 Croatia or wherever it is. Klina is in Kosovo and Metohija, near Pec.

1 Q. Near Pec. We'll see if we can find it on the map.

2 A. Close to Pec, about 20 -- Pec is to the north -- sorry, to the

3 west of Klina, towards Montenegro, and Klina is about 25, 26 kilometres

4 from Pec to the east.

5 Q. I'm going to move on, please, to the speech at Gazimestan. You

6 have been emphatic there was nothing nationalistic about what was

7 happening at Gazimestan. Would that be correct?

8 A. From what I could see and observe, it is true. There was nothing

9 nationalistic.

10 Q. There are a million Serbs in an area where Kosovo Albanians were

11 clearly in a majority celebrating a Serb war. Do you think there's any

12 risk of anxiety falling on the Kosovo Albanians in having a meeting of

13 that scale in their -- in territory that they dominated?

14 A. I don't believe it imposed a risk. It was a celebration of the

15 600th anniversary of the Kosovo battle, and the estimates of the press as

16 to the number of people attending ran between 500.000 and a million.

17 Those are not my estimates, and I don't think it could have been a risk.

18 It would have been more of a risk to organise destructive demonstrations

19 running through the streets.

20 Q. Very well.

21 A. This was an event that was not designed to pose a threat.

22 Q. You told us of your handling the arrangements for such important

23 guests as Ante Markovic and Drnovsek, whom I think you escorted in;

24 correct?

25 A. That is absolutely untrue what you're just saying, Mr. Nice. I

1 never said I met Drnovsek or Markovic, unless it's blatant provocation,

2 unless you're trying to provoke me. I was playing a host to those people

3 coming by train, various people who came to take part in the event from

4 various parts of the country, from Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia.

5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

6 A. Please don't put words in my mouth, and I don't care for your

7 apology.

8 Q. Very well. But those men did come. You certainly told us about

9 that.

10 A. Yes, but I did not welcome them. They were there, sitting in the

11 first row, and I was behind them in the fourth row.

12 Q. Now, let's look, please, with the assistance of the audiovisual

13 booth at how this meeting ended. And perhaps you would be good enough,

14 Mr. Balevic, to listen carefully to what we can hear.

15 [Videotape played]

16 MR. NICE: Okay. Thank you very much.

17 Q. The words of the song that were sung in unison, "Ko To Kaze, Ko To

18 Laze Srbija Je Mala," and so on, is as nationalistic a Serbian song as you

19 can have, isn't it?

20 A. Thank you very much for this question. I was expecting it. First

21 of all, Mr. Nice, it's not a nationalist song. It is a song that has been

22 sung for a hundred years, back to the Balkan wars. It is sung at

23 weddings, in taverns, at celebrations. It is an integral part of our

24 folklore and this can be confirmed by ethnologists who are experts. That

25 song was not sung only there, it has been sung every where, from the

1 Balkan wars onwards. When you find two or three people gathering, making

2 merry in a tavern, they will sing that song. It's not true that it's a

3 nationalist song. If you allow me to tell you, although my knowledge of

4 the Albanian language is poor by now, however, when I was young, I learnt

5 it in school with my Albanian friends. If I -- if you allowed me to show

6 you an example of an Albanian song, then you would see what nationalist

7 means.

8 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

9 A. And the question is who sang that song.

10 Q. You've given a long answer. Now let's look at the words: "Who is

11 saying, who is lying, that Serbia is small. It's not small, it's been to

12 war three times, and it will be again if God grants us luck."

13 Mr. Balevic, how do you think those words would have sounded in

14 the ears of non-Serbs present at that meeting or non-Serbs from elsewhere

15 in Yugoslavia hearing a million people singing it at that meeting?

16 A. First of all, it was not sung by a million people. It was sung by

17 a part of those gathered but not a million. That's one thing.

18 And second, regardless of all the slogans, that song is not

19 nationalist by nature. I don't know how many times Serbia has been to

20 war. Only one of those wars was silly, when King Milan attacked Bulgaria

21 because of some silly ambitions. All the other wars, however, were

22 national liberation wars. And that song does not mean that Serbia would

23 go to war against Albanians. It's a hundred-year-old song, and if a

24 hundred years ago it was -- it had the meaning you seem to impute to it,

25 then all right. But what I'm saying is that it's part of our folklore,

1 and it has been sung on various occasions over the past 100 years. You

2 have, however, your own historians. You can check that.

3 Q. You have shown some passing knowledge of the trials before this

4 Tribunal, or certainly of this trial. Have you followed trials where

5 Serbs are alleged to have -- the camp cases, for example, where Serbs are

6 alleged to have done bad things to Croats and to Muslims, including making

7 them sing nationalistic Serb songs? Have you?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Very well. After that song was sung, and indeed after the speech

10 of the accused, you've told us about the arrival of Ante Markovic and Mr.

11 Drnovsek. Did they in fact leave immediately?

12 A. I don't know about that because I was not their escort.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson. It is really

14 inappropriate to manipulate with facts in this way. After this speech

15 that Mr. Nice has just shown - in fact I showed the tape first - there

16 followed a celebration, a cultural event, and there was even a piece of

17 music composed specially for the occasion, and that was the 600th

18 anniversary of the battle.

19 MR. NICE: Your Honour, --

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, that's a matter you can take up in

21 re-examination, as you well know.

22 MR. NICE: To move on and to explain how I'm going to save time,

23 nevertheless trying to assist the Chamber with what matters are and are

24 not in issue, the witness gave wide-ranging and, I assume from the way he

25 described them, hearsay accounts of crimes committed by KLA. He referred

1 to, I think, two or three places in particular; Lake Radonjic, Klecka, and

2 one or two other places. These matters are already covered in evidence,

3 for example, in Exhibit 191. I'm not going to challenge him as to detail,

4 and indeed I think as to the generality without necessarily the

5 atmosphere. His account of crimes by KLA is not challenged as to the

6 generality but not necessarily as to the detail, we don't have time to go

7 into that, but it probably helps for the Judges to -- for the Court to

8 know why I'm not dealing with something even if I don't necessarily accept

9 it as relevant.

10 Q. In order to try and fulfil my hope and semi-promise of finishing

11 this morning in the first session, you told us in relation to the build-up

12 to the events of 1999, that you were at a meeting with the man Sainovic.

13 Was it just the one meeting?

14 A. No. It's Sainovic who had a meeting with us at the provincial

15 committee, and I personally never had a one-to-one meeting with Sainovic.

16 Q. I accept that. At the time -- at the time that you had your

17 meeting with Sainovic, did he -- what position did he fulfill? What

18 structure of control did he reflect?

19 A. I cannot recall at the moment what position he was holding at the,

20 but he came on behalf of the Main Staff of the SPS.

21 Q. Did he appear to have authority in some way over events in the

22 area?

23 A. I'm not aware that he had any special powers. At least he didn't

24 share it with us. But he often came to attend meetings of the Main Staff

25 together with other leaders, Ruzica Gajevic, Milan Minic, Dragan Tomic,

1 the other Dragan Tomic. I cannot recall all the people who attended.

2 Q. Did you then or thereafter get an understanding of who was running

3 things in Kosovo after the bombing began; who was the military commander

4 for the Serbs, who was the civil commander? Did you get an understanding?

5 Can you help us?

6 A. I cannot help you there. I don't know who was the civilian

7 commander or the military commander, for that matter.

8 Q. Did you get to learn of anybody called the Supreme Command; and if

9 so, how it was composed?

10 A. I heard about the Supreme Command, but I don't know who was on it.

11 Q. Where did you hear about it from?

12 A. That's something that everybody knows in Serbia, that there is a

13 Supreme Command, like in every state.

14 Q. Very well. In your evidence yesterday in answer to the accused,

15 you said that there was no, to your knowledge, ethnic cleansing in Kosovo

16 apart from that of Serbs and Montenegrins. And speaking of the columns of

17 Albanians, you said this: That the columns of Albanians you came across

18 were such that it didn't look to you as if they were refugee columns at

19 all because they were going by slowly, past the railway station and the

20 bus station, carrying small bags. They didn't look the way Serb columns

21 looked. The columns looked to you to be sort of construed, manufactured,

22 staged so that they should look like refugees.

23 Is that really your evidence on what happened to the Kosovo

24 Albanians in Pristina following the bombing in 1999?

25 A. I adhere to what I said yesterday, except I didn't say next to the

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 railway station, I said in the direction of the railway station.

2 Q. Very well. I'd like you, please, to look with us at an exhibit.

3 The number is Exhibit 15, already produced. It's on Sanction. Sorry.

4 [Videotape played]

5 "People and its identity. The ethnic Albanians that once

6 dominated this city are in flight. Forced from their homes, threatened

7 and abused by the Serbian police, they are being herded into trains

8 destined for the Macedonian border. They leave behind a country and a way

9 of life which they may never see again.

10 "The police came to our houses and told us to get out. They said

11 they'd kill us if we didn't leave. They beat up my son. We've come here

12 without money or possessions.

13 "The border between Kosovo and Macedonia has become one vast and

14 sprawling refugee camp. It could be a scene from the heart of Africa, but

15 this is the heart of modern Europe. Tens of thousands are now here. Tens

16 of thousands more ..."

17 MR. NICE:

18 Q. The first clip shows Pristina railway station, and the composition

19 takes refugees to the border. Is what you saw at the railway station on

20 the clip the sort of false, staged exodus that you're describing?

21 A. I believe that I said yesterday where this was happening. Whether

22 it is the railway station of Pristina or some other railway station, I

23 don't know. You cannot see the name of the station here. I have not been

24 there.

25 I spoke only about what I saw in Pristina, the people moving from

1 the area of Dardanija towards the bus terminal and the railway station.

2 Q. I'm going to suggest to you, Mr. Balevic, that your account of

3 columns of Albanians looking like they were staging being refugees is

4 unacceptable and simply false, that you're basically false in suggesting

5 that these people were staging anything. You knew perfectly well that

6 people were being forced out of Pristina, didn't you?

7 A. I equally reiterate that your statement is incorrect and that

8 people were not driven out from Pristina by force. You cannot tell me

9 that I'm saying something false. I am saying that you are not right. I'm

10 speaking of Pristina.

11 Q. I want you to consider one extract from Exhibit 145, already an

12 exhibit in the case, on the overhead projector in English at page 137.

13 This is Under Orders. Mr. Balevic, I'll read it to you slowly. This

14 deals with the position at Pristina according to Human Rights Watch, and

15 we'll see how they sourced their material, if necessary, from the

16 footnotes. But the evidence is to this effect, or the book is to this

17 effect, and the book is in evidence.

18 Starting at the top of the page: "Police and masked

19 paramilitaries went door-to-door at the end of March, telling residents

20 that they had to leave at once. MB, a mother of two from Tashlixhe said

21 that she had been told: 'Come on, get out, you must go to the railway

22 station.' In come cases witnesses were told they would be killed if they

23 failed to comply. A medical doctor and his family were told by masked

24 men, 'If you don't leave in one minute, we will kill you all.'"

25 And then this: "Upon leaving their homes, residents were directed

1 by police towards the railway station in Pristina, while others left by

2 car. The side roads were blocked by armed police and paramilitaries: A

3 Vranjevac resident said that people who tried to walk in another direction

4 were forced back by the police. Thousands of Pristina residents were

5 gathered at the railway station, with armed police posted around the area

6 ..."

7 You were there. Is it your case that this account is true, false,

8 or don't you know?

9 A. I know absolutely nothing about this. I didn't go to Tashlixhe,

10 that place is called Tashlixhe. I was in Dardanija, so I know nothing

11 about this. You would have to find somewhere an article stating of Serbs

12 and Montenegrins who were fleeing, because this particular publication was

13 inclined towards separatists. And there were other publications of the

14 same sort led by people by -- like Kandic, Biserko, et cetera.

15 Q. Mr. Balevic, you gave -- you were asked about ethnic cleansing,

16 and you volunteered an answer which referred to the ethnic cleansing of

17 Serbs and expressly or by implication said there was no ethnic cleansing

18 of Kosovo Albanians from the area of which you had knowledge. Now I want

19 you to help the Court, please, and we'll look at one more extract and then

20 I'm done. We've looked at the document before. It's "As Seen, As Told"

21 again, Exhibit 106, and you will remember, Mr. Balevic, that this was the

22 document that we looked at yesterday where you found -- where we found

23 together passages dealing with the KLA as well as with the Serbs.

24 MR. NICE: If Mr. Prendergast would put the page 236 on the

25 overhead projector, right-hand side.

1 Q. Now, this is in Kosovo Polje. It's on the 29th of March. We can

2 see it there. "Shots were fired --" Incidentally, it will help you if I

3 set it in context although we don't have time. The previous passage deals

4 entirely with what happened to a KLA leader, commander, and his family.

5 Now we look at something different.

6 "On the 29th of March, shots were fired at the house of a well

7 known Kosovo Albanian doctor. VJ and police broke into the house, looted

8 it and expelled the inhabitants. An interviewer who later entered the

9 doctor's premises (his house and clinic combined) reported finding the

10 bodies of 11 dead (two children, four women and five men). All had had

11 their throats slit open. Only a four-year-old girl had survived this

12 massacre."

13 This is Kosovo Polje in the time before you left. Do you have any

14 knowledge, were you ever told anything about this?

15 A. No.

16 Q. In light of your answer to the --

17 A. Because if I had any knowledge, I would share it with you. But

18 what is interesting, Mr. Nice, is that you haven't asked me a single

19 question relating to the tragedy experienced by the Serbs and

20 Montenegrins, the murder in 1999 --

21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

22 A. -- of people in Gacko.

23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

24 A. The blowing up of buses.

25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

1 A. You only take examples --

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Balevic, just answer the question.

3 MR. NICE:

4 Q. You see --

5 A. I'm sorry. I answered the question. But Mr. Nice is picking out

6 the sequences that only -- the kind that fits with the indictment.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's not a comment for you to make.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: That's the whole point.

9 MR. NICE: Yes, indeed.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I gave the answer.

11 MR. NICE:

12 Q. But more than that. You see, you gave an answer yesterday which

13 effectively excluded suffering of Kosovo Albanians. They were either

14 falsely pretending they were refugees, and they weren't killed or

15 compelled in any way to leave the area. Now --

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, didn't the witness acknowledge

17 yesterday that there were some misdeeds committed by Serbs, but they were

18 malcontents, criminals.

19 MR. NICE: Yes, Your Honour is quite right, he did. He

20 acknowledged it to that extent to me in cross-examination.

21 Q. But this, as you'll see, Mr. Balevic, refers to the VJ, and it

22 refers to the police. Do I take it from your answer that you say you

23 don't know about it but that you allow for the fact that it may have

24 happened?

25 A. I do not allow that possibility, because I know nothing of that.

1 I'm not aware of that at all, and that's what I said yesterday. Apart

2 from the examples I mentioned, which were exceptions, but that certainly

3 did not constitute our policy, because I know all about the policy.

4 MR. NICE: Thank you.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: That concludes your cross-examination, Mr. Nice?

6 MR. NICE: Certainly, Your Honour, yes.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: We're going to take a break now for 20 minutes.

8 Mr. Nice, would you let us have the authorities.

9 MR. NICE: Yes. And it would probably help if I flag them for

10 relevance, although of course we've included larger passages than the

11 narrow ones so that you have context.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: I thought you would have marked them, underlined.

13 MR. NICE: We can do that, whichever you prefer.

14 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you're to re-examine, if you wish.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now the microphone is on.

18 Re-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Balevic, yesterday when Mr. Nice started

20 cross-examining, he spoke about dismissing Albanians from their jobs. I

21 am going to quote paragraph 87 of the indictment where it says, inter

22 alia: "Throughout the end of 1990 and throughout all of 1991, thousands

23 of Kosovo Albanians -- Kosovo Albanian doctors, teachers, professors,

24 workers, police and civil servants were dismissed from their positions."

25 Tell me, please, was anybody dismissing Albanians from their jobs

1 because they were Albanians?

2 A. Mr. President, no. They left their jobs of their own free will.

3 I said that yesterday, and I said that on the 25th of January.

4 Q. Are you aware of any campaign or any kind of organised activity

5 aimed at dismissing Albanians from their jobs in your community?

6 A. Nothing of that kind was done by official policy. This was done

7 of their own accord. They left their jobs, and I underline this, in order

8 to paint a certain picture before the international community, the

9 international public, to show that this was this great injustice against

10 them, and then whatever happened to Kosovo and Metohija was to follow.

11 There was no campaign against them.

12 Q. Mr. Nice asked you why you used the word "Siptar." I don't know

13 whether the explanation given was sufficiently clear. You lived in Kosovo

14 for a long time. What is the word that Albanians use for themselves?

15 A. I give an explanation yesterday, and I claimed that that's the way

16 it is. Excuse me.

17 Q. I'm not asking you about your explanation. We heard it yesterday.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Tell me, what is the word that Albanians themselves use for

20 themselves?

21 A. "Siptari." They call themselves "Siptari." I claim that with

22 full responsibility. They do not say "Albanians," they say "Siptari."

23 Q. Yes, they know that too. Mr. Nice spoke to you then about some

24 Serb positions and Albanian positions that differ. In the period of time

25 that you are testifying about in relation to events in Kosovo, were these

1 Serbian positions or generally accepted Yugoslav positions? When I say

2 Yugoslav, I mean the presidents of Yugoslavia, the Yugoslav political

3 leadership, the leaderships of the other socialist republics at the time.

4 Were these positions espoused by all of them or were they some kind of

5 separate Serb positions?

6 A. Mr. President, what positions are we talking about? Could you

7 tell me please.

8 Q. Positions about the political situation in Kosovo.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were these Serb positions exclusively or were these Yugoslav

11 positions, positions espoused by the Yugoslav leadership?

12 A. They were not exclusively Serb positions.

13 Q. When mentioning the fact that they were readily admitted into

14 university and readily given diplomas, you said by way of proof that a

15 professor made a speech - Professor Milanovic was the name if I wrote it

16 down correctly - at that gathering that you chaired. As for this

17 inflation of diplomas, as it were, and this non-selective admission

18 policy, in terms of individuals who were coming from Albania and were

19 admitted at Pristina University, is that the only thing you know, what you

20 heard from Milanovic that day at that particular meeting, or do you know

21 more about that? Do you know that this was something that was discussed

22 more widely in public?

23 A. This is Vujadin Milanovic. This is a well-known professor. I

24 heard him speak and his speech is contained in this book and there is no

25 need for me to read it out if this was admitted here anyway. Later on I

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 also heard about this and people were saying this is the way things were

2 done. There is a lot more in this book, and what it says is far more

3 serious than what I referred to yesterday.

4 Q. All right. You're not going to read out from that book now but

5 there are also stenographic notes from the meeting you chaired contained

6 in that book; right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. All right.

9 A. But I listened to the speech as it was being made because I was

10 chairing the meeting.

11 Q. All right. Mr. Nice said or, rather, he said he tried to

12 establish the reasons why Serbs, as he said, wanted Albanians not to get

13 an education. Was there ever a position like that taken by Serbs? When I

14 say "Serbs," I'm referring to the public opinion, the leaderships in

15 Kosovo, local leaderships, republican leaderships, Yugoslav leaderships.

16 Did it cross anyone's mind to have that kind of motive, not to education

17 the Albanians?

18 A. I claim that there was never such a motive or such a position.

19 Q. Mr. Nice said that some group was sending delegations. Tell me,

20 who was it that sent delegations? For example, to see Dizdarevic, who

21 sent this delegation? You led that delegation. Who sent you on this

22 delegation that went to see Dizdarevic?

23 A. Specifically we were sent by a group of 10 to 15.000 persons who

24 were gathered before the Braca Krajinovic building in Kosovo Polje because

25 they wanted to go to Belgrade, all of them. They asked for trains. And

1 then we tried to stop that. We tried to prevent thousands of them going

2 to Belgrade. We said that a delegation should be chosen, and these towns

3 selected a delegation that went to see Dizdarevic in this particular case.

4 Q. All right. In the clip -- or, rather, in the excerpt from Raif

5 Dizdarevic's book that Mr. Nice showed a few minutes ago, it says on page

6 365 - the one that he indicated, too, when he was quoting from it - that

7 Petar Gracanin called him. Do you remember that at that time Petar

8 Gracanin was president of the Presidency of the Socialist Republic of

9 Serbia after Ivan Stambolic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So the president of the Presidency of the Republic of Serbia,

12 Petar Gracanin, called the president of the Presidency of Yugoslavia, Raif

13 Dizdarevic, and asked him to receive a delegation from Kosovo?

14 A. Because first the chief of protocol called us, and he wanted to

15 receive us. We didn't want to talk to the chief of protocol. We insisted

16 that we talk to Dizdarevic himself. Then Petar Gracanin -- President

17 Petar Gracanin intervened and then he received us.

18 Q. And then this sentence that is being linked to this possible

19 suspicion that Solevic was on the delegation with you and others, and I

20 don't know what the point of this is even if he were. I'm going to read

21 the sentence out. "The delegation was led by Balevic, a party official

22 from Kosovo Polje who at that moment was considered to be a moderate

23 compared to Solevic, Kecman, and other Kosovo extremists." Is that the

24 truth as far as you know?

25 A. I don't know what President Dizdarevic wanted to say by this. I

1 did lead the delegation, but it's not that I was officially elected. They

2 said, Since you are the president of the regional conference, you can head

3 the delegation. He probably meant what was actually being said, because I

4 actually tried to find a common solution with the Albanians through a more

5 moderate policy. I guess that's the only way how he could have formed

6 this opinion that I was moderate compared to Solevic and others. I don't

7 know how else.

8 Q. All right. Towards the end of this page, if you could please be

9 so kind as to look at it, I'm just going to quote the last four or five

10 lines. Dizdarevic says: "They asked not to accept Morina's, Azemi's and

11 Shukrija's resignations. One of them said verbatim that if these

12 resignations are accepted, then that would mean the resignation of

13 Yugoslavia or the Albanisation of Yugoslavia."

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that they do not have the

15 text so it is very hard to interpret this way.

16 JUDGE KWON: Page 2 or 3 in the English version.

17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters do not have that text. I'm

18 sorry.

19 MR. NICE: They should, I think.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: The text should be passed on to the interpreters.

21 MR. NICE: I think they do actually have text but they've probably

22 been provided with a lot of material, hard to find.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's now on the ELMO.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Very well. The point is this; they requested the resignations of

1 Morina, Azemi, and Shukrija not be accepted. Morina, Azemi, and Shukrija

2 are Albanians. I believe that there is no doubt about that.

3 A. Yes, they are Albanians.

4 Q. So you are a delegation and Mr. Nice asked you whether there were

5 any Albanians on the delegation and you said no, there weren't any or,

6 rather, he asked you -- or, rather, Dizdarevic asked you about this too.

7 So this delegation didn't include any Albanians but you asked for support

8 to be given to Morina, Azemi and Shukrija, that is so say the most

9 prominent Albanian representatives.

10 A. This was mentioned, but Mr. President, how we actually put this

11 into words is something I cannot say now. I think this was referred to.

12 I think it was Rrahman Morina. I'm not sure about Azemi.

13 Q. He probably recorded it very precisely.

14 A. Probably.

15 Q. At any rate your delegation asked for support to be given to

16 Azemi, Shukrija and Morina.

17 A. Absolutely, yes.

18 Q. And all three Albanians?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you. Dizdarevic referred to a plan --

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Or, rather, could we have the tape

22 played from the part where Ivan Stambolic speaks and then I would like to

23 put a question to Mr. Balevic.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the tape be played.

25 MR. NICE: We may need some identification of the clip. I

1 forecast from the question that it's probably The Death of Yugoslavia

2 tape, and if it's the one involving Mr. Stambolic, President Stambolic,

3 then it will be the very beginning, I think.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It says here in the transcript clip

5 1.

6 [Videotape played]

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Very well. Thank you. So Ivan Stambolic says that it was

9 suggested to him that he should go to Milosevic but that he wanted me to

10 go. Secondly, you testified here that you had invited me.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. If he is asking me to go in both cases and you are inviting me,

13 what kind of plan can I have, then, in relation to going to Kosovo?

14 A. No plan whatsoever.

15 Q. We can play this clip in front of the cultural centre when this is

16 coming to an end, when they say they are beating us and when I say no one

17 should be allowed to beat you. And then the masses of people became more

18 quiet. Did you notice what they were chanting?

19 A. They were chanting "Yugoslavia," they were singing the national

20 anthem, and they were asking for freedom.

21 Q. All right. That can be heard from the clip, the masses chanting

22 "Yugoslavia"?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. All right. Mr. Nice said to you yesterday that this group, as he

25 called it, sent various demonstrators to different places. Who was it

1 that was sending different people to different places?

2 A. I don't know. I don't know about these groups and these

3 demonstrators. I never had any such information.

4 Q. Mr. Nice indicated that it was I who sent them to different

5 places. I'm going to read something out to you now from what Mr. Nice

6 submitted yesterday. This is an interview by Mr. Solevic. That is page

7 03641691. In the paragraph on the left. I'm not going to read the whole

8 thing. The question is: "You started with Vojvodina.

9 "Miroslav Solevic: Yes. Those attacks started from Vojvodina."

10 He's talking about attacks from Vojvodina, attacks against Serbs

11 in Kosovo. "They were biting." You remember, after all, you were at that

12 meeting in Kosovo Polje in 1998 when -- 1988, when we decided to go.

13 Milomir Minic and Dragan Nikolic came from Serbia. This is Milomir Minic

14 and Dragan Nikolic who were party officials; right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And it says, "Now you should ask them what kind of positions they

17 had then.

18 "Question: They were quite perplexed. We have to stop." This is

19 what he whispered to Minic. "Minic, perspiring: Try that.

20 "Solevic: Exactly. I got up at this meeting and I said, please,

21 there will be no more bargaining here. No one should come to see us any

22 more. Now we are going to go to light a fire underneath the windows of

23 those who are against us."

24 This is the interview given by Mr. Nice, provided by Mr. Nice.

25 This is an interview with Miroslav Solevic but provided by Mr. Nice.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Was that put to the witness yesterday?

2 MR. NICE: It --

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Oh, yes. Oh, yes, it was.

4 MR. NICE: I think the position it's in the original Serbian

5 newspaper or B/C/S newspaper but not translated because, of course, we

6 have to be selective in what is translated but I have no objection,

7 providing it's capable of being dealt with by the Court and that it should

8 be dealt with in this way because otherwise the accused can't take the

9 benefit of a document that's put in.

10 JUDGE KWON: It's the third --

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, then let it be put on the ELMO so

12 it can be translated for our benefit.

13 JUDGE KWON: It's 10th of February version in B/C/S. Last footage

14 it is 1691 ERN number.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] When I said whether the witness was

16 shown this, Mr. Robinson, I don't mean whether what I am quoting was shown

17 the witness but whether the article was shown the witness, and it was.

18 But what was quoted wasn't what I can see in the article.

19 It's talking about the meeting, and in the hall Minic tells me,

20 Have you gone mad? and then I whispered to him, Don't you worry about

21 that. And then the subtitle is What Milosevic nonsense that you -- it

22 says that it was rumoured that you agreed upon everything with Milosevic

23 and that it was all construed. Bosic said What Milosevic, nonsense. We

24 did everything on our own bat. The only problem was how we should go, et

25 cetera, et cetera.

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. So Solevic himself in this interview says not only did I not send

3 them, but he says heaven forbid. We did that for ourselves.

4 Is that what you know happened? Is that how you know it?

5 A. I attended numerous meetings in Kosovo Polje. This conversation

6 between him and Minic is something I'm not aware of, Mr. President.

7 Q. I'm not asking you about the conversation but who sent the people

8 there and did they go and did anybody send them at all outside Kosovo or

9 was it their own initiative?

10 A. The Serbian and Montenegrin people, the Serbs and Montenegrins who

11 found themselves enmeshed in this drama of massive exodus and everything

12 else that accompanied it decided for themselves and then went around the

13 towns of Serbia to tell the people what was happening, what was going on

14 in Kosovo and Metohija and what was happening to the Serbs and

15 Montenegrins, to inform them of the situation and to ask them for help to

16 save Serbdom in Kosovo and Metohija, to save the Serbs and Montenegrins in

17 Kosovo and Metohija.

18 Q. As Solevic says, the attacks started from Vojvodina, they kept

19 stinging us by what they said, and then you went there - not you but the

20 citizens - went there to hold a rally because of these attacks that were

21 hurled at them from Vojvodina.

22 A. At their own initiative without any orders from Belgrade or

23 instructions from Belgrade. Not only to Novi Sad but other towns all over

24 Serbia. There were invitations coming from these Serbian towns to come

25 and hold rallies there, and there was even a rally that was held in

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 Skopje, for example.

2 Q. Very well. Now, you were asked by Mr. Nice, since he mentioned a

3 million people at Gazimestan, he asked you whether this was risky business

4 because there were many Albanians living in Kosovo, and you said no, that

5 it was not a risk. Do you remember, Mr. Balevic, in view of the fact that

6 there was this enormous mass of people gathered there, whether there was a

7 single incident that broke out throughout the whole day, the entire day,

8 the arrivals, the departures, the presence of all those people at

9 Gazimestan, did a spark fly at all? Did an incident take place? Was

10 anybody hurt or injured or anything like that?

11 A. Not a single incident, untoward incident took place either before

12 -- before the arrival or from the railway station to the rally itself, in

13 the cars, before the meeting, after the meeting. No incidents ever broke

14 out. Otherwise I would know about it.

15 Q. Now, let's go back to the demonstrations that took place in 1988

16 and throughout that year. Mr. Nice yesterday used a term "the

17 demonstrators used violence or force." Do you know whether at any

18 demonstrations throughout that year anywhere whether there was any

19 violence at all?

20 A. No. Except where there was destruction if you're talking about

21 the Albanians.

22 Q. I'm asking you about the demonstrations that you were asked about

23 by Mr. Nice when the Serbs went to complain and present their grievances.

24 A. Ah, yes, I see.

25 Q. Was there any violence in all those demonstrations?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Because he said the demonstrators used force or violence.

3 A. He said there were 300 armed Serbs as well in front of the

4 cultural centre and that's not true either.

5 Q. Would you explain this to me now, please: You mentioned, in

6 speaking of the meeting attended by the people you enumerated, you said

7 Gorica Gajevic, Milomir Minic, Dragan Tomic, the other Dragan Tomic,

8 Sainovic, et cetera. That's the order you gave us for the names. Now,

9 was this a meeting of the Main Board of Kosovo and Metohija, the meeting

10 of the Main Board of the Socialist Party of Kosovo and Metohija, in fact?

11 A. It was a meeting, as far as I remember, of an expanded nature with

12 more members. I wasn't a member of the board. I was there as secretary.

13 But it was an extended meeting of the members of Kosovo and Metohija, the

14 members of the Main Board, the provincial board.

15 Q. So it was an expanded meeting, an enlarged meeting; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And that means that all the provincial board members were there

18 plus all of you others who had some posts and functions, which means that

19 it was a meeting, if you say that the Main Board was there and that other

20 representatives of the Socialist Party were there, does that mean that all

21 these functionaries were there, officials were there as leaders in the

22 Main Board of the Socialist Party?

23 A. Yes. That's what I said, and I answered Mr. Nice's question and

24 said that they were there on behalf of the Main Board of the SPS, in fact.

25 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Nice showed you many people standing at the

1 railway station in Pristina or where else. Well, in Kosovo at any rate.

2 Many people near the border. And he quoted from a document. I assume it

3 was the Human Rights Watch or something like that, I can't quite remember

4 now, but he quoted from a document in which it said that there were armed

5 policemen standing round them.

6 Now, since I didn't see any armed policemen on the photographs and

7 images that were shown, any armed police encircling those refugees, and I

8 that if a foreign television station took that footage that must have been

9 something that would have been seen, did you see anywhere in Pristina any

10 armed policemen forcing the Albanians to go to the railway station and

11 move out?

12 A. I said that before, and I'm saying it again: I never saw that. I

13 said yesterday -- I told you yesterday about the bandits and crimes

14 committed by criminals and so on. I'm not claiming that there might not

15 have been people who would don the uniform of a policeman and abuse that

16 uniform, because the KLA had many police uniforms, too, so they might have

17 done that. I don't say that there wasn't any abuse of that kind, but as

18 far as the regular police force is concerned and regular policemen forcing

19 people out, I have no knowledge about that in the area of Pristina in

20 which I lived.

21 Q. Mr. Nice went on to quote a tragic event from that book, that is

22 that in Kosovo Polje the house and a clinic of an Albanian doctor was

23 stormed and people slaughtered there, as he said. He said this was done

24 by the policemen and soldiers. Tell me, please, you said you knew nothing

25 about that.

1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. But tell me, had an incident like that happened, a massacre like

3 that happened, could that be hidden from the people? Would you have to

4 have known about that by virtue of your function?

5 A. It's impossible that anything like that could have happened

6 without my knowledge. That's the first point.

7 Secondly, I had my daughters living there, I had friends living

8 there, and I lived in Kosovo Polje myself in 1980, so it was impossible

9 for a massacre of that kind to have taken place without me knowing about

10 it in one way or another because I was and inhabitant.

11 Q. Well, did you hear of any crime committed by an army unit or a

12 police unit, anything like that? As a unit. I'm not talking about

13 sporadic incidents, individuals. Many individuals were arrested for the

14 various crimes they committed, but do you have any knowledge about any

15 kind of even the smallest unit of an army or a police force perpetrating a

16 crime and killing any civilians?

17 A. Mr. President, I claim with full responsibility that I never had

18 any information telling me that even the smallest military or police unit

19 had perpetrated crimes against the Albanian people.

20 Q. Mr. Nice mentioned various paramilitary formations as well. Now,

21 you in Pristina, and you were there throughout the time of the crisis and

22 the war, did you happen to see any paramilitary formation whatsoever?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Balevic. I have no further questions.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

1 Mr. Robinson, may I be allowed to say something?

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The next witness is Vladislav

4 Jovanovic. Yesterday and today, I came here in court with a raised

5 temperature because I got out of bed and I had a temperature. So might I

6 suggest that I start the examination-in-chief of Mr. Vladislav Jovanovic

7 on Monday, the next working day apart from tomorrow so that I could have a

8 chance to go back to bed and deal with my temperature, because I have had

9 a temperature on both days and I had to get out of bed. So I don't -- if

10 possible, as it's going to be a lengthy witness and I won't be able to get

11 through him tomorrow, might I be allowed to start my examination-in-chief

12 on Monday or the next working day after tomorrow, not tomorrow, and be

13 allowed to rest tomorrow?

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you have a temperature now, Mr. Milosevic?

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I took two Paracetamols.

16 Perhaps it has gone down now but this morning it was 37.8, and yesterday

17 the nurse took my temperature at her own initiative when I returned from

18 the courtroom and it was above 37 degrees Centigrade. I didn't ask her to

19 take my temperature, she did so herself, because I thought that I should

20 continue and get -- but I don't feel too well. So I don't think I can

21 start the next witness today or tomorrow. The witness is prepared, but I

22 think for practical purposes, if I was allowed to get well now, that would

23 save perhaps a little more lengthy recuperation period later on.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll consult.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Just before we deal with that, I have one question

2 for Mr. Balevic before he completes his evidence.

3 Questioned by the Court:

4 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm confused, Mr. Balevic, about where you were

5 living at the various stages of the matters which have been explored in

6 examination and cross-examination. Can you tell me when you lived in

7 Kosovo Polje.

8 A. I lived in Kosovo Polje from the 3rd of January, 1961, until

9 somewhere towards the end of 1980. I can't give you the exact day, but

10 that's the period. And then I moved to Pristina. I had a flat -- I mean,

11 I lived in Pristina, resided in Pristina.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: And that's until recently?

13 A. I was there until I was expelled by the Albanian terrorists,

14 forced to leave.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Remind me of the date of that, please.

16 A. On the 19th I left Pristina, because my security was threatened,

17 with my family. I went to Kosovo Polje to stay with my daughter. And

18 then on the 26th, I left Kosovo Polje, in June 1999.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: So you were there from the 26th of March until --

20 you were there from the 26th of March, 1999, until June 1999. In Kosovo

21 Polje.

22 A. In Kosovo Polje, I was there from the 19th of June to the 26th of

23 May -- no, June. June, sorry. June. Because on the 19th of June I left

24 Kosovo for Pristina, went to stay with my daughter, and Kosovo Polje -- I

25 was in Kosovo Polje for seven days.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Balevic, that concludes your testimony.

3 Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to testify. You may now leave.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to draw your -- I'd like to

7 draw the attention of the interpreters that their conversation is being

8 picked up by the microphone.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm sure they'll thank you for that,

10 Mr. Milosevic.

11 Mr. Nice, on this point.

12 MR. NICE: This point give rise, I think, to two issues: One,

13 whether this is now a stage in the trial where assigned counsel should be

14 in a position to step in and take the witness in chief. We understand the

15 witness has been prepared, and if assigned counsel is not in a position to

16 do that, then it's hard to see when he's going to be able to fulfil his

17 full role.

18 If the decision is against that, then the next question that

19 arises, and it was I think was forecast some time ago, is whether time

20 that is lost through ill health comes off eventually the time allocation

21 for the accused's case.

22 The rationale for all of that is that the accused's pattern of ill

23 health, which we saw last year and which we now see somewhat reflected in

24 what's happened last week and this, may be a pattern that is connected to

25 the amount of work he's doing on running this case at his own choice.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, he just had the flu.

2 MR. NICE: Well, that was last week he had flu. And that happened

3 also last year.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Last year he had other --

5 MR. NICE: And he had other things as well.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- conditions, yes.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson. Mr. Robinson.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a small addition. The whole

10 floor has the flu where I am.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's going around, I know.

12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nice, in terms of practicability, do you think is

13 it possible or feasible for the assigned counsel to take up the conduct of

14 trial right now or tomorrow?

15 MR. NICE: I don't know, I don't know what the relation is between

16 the assigned counsel and the accused, but it might be tomorrow. And of

17 course, if it was tomorrow and if the courtroom was available, it might be

18 that we could use some other part of this --

19 JUDGE KWON: If the assigned counsel is allowed to meet the

20 witness.

21 MR. NICE: Yes. And this witness, incidentally, is a witness who

22 speaks fluent English, as I understand it, and no doubt would have been

23 very fully prepared and will know exactly topics that are going to be

24 covered.

25 JUDGE KWON: And his examination will not complete by tomorrow.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 MR. NICE: We understand, I think, six and a half hours have been

2 allowed, so that will take us to the end of an ordinary sitting week in

3 any event. And I should say, for the assistance of Your Honours at the

4 moment, that I have in mind a plan to make cross-examination of the

5 witness easier by, with your leave, serving on the witness all the

6 documents I want him to consider for the Prosecution between the time

7 roughly when his examination-in-chief ends and his cross-examination

8 begins. That's the plan I've laid at the moment.

9 But in any event, yes, he could be taken in chief starting

10 tomorrow and we could perhaps finish him if not on Thursday, if there was

11 a court available on Friday, otherwise next Monday. But flu or not -- and

12 I don't think we've seen a medical report ourselves, and make no complaint

13 about that --

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: There was a medical report.

15 MR. NICE: Yes. Apparently we have seen one, it has come our way,

16 sorry, it just hasn't found its way to me yet. But flu or not, there is a

17 pattern in these things and the Court made the decision it did about

18 assigned counsel with that in mind. Nothing further.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Kay.

20 MR. KAY: Your Honours, with respect to Mr. Nice, this is an

21 extreme application. This is an application that is not based on merit by

22 him. He should consider this application very carefully. It's a very

23 dangerous thing to start building up a so-called pattern against the

24 accused when he has genuine illness which may afflict anyone. It's the

25 time of year when it is. Medical reports have been filed with the Court

1 that establish the genuineness of his condition, completely unrelated to

2 his underlying medical condition relating to his cardiovascular problems,

3 and in his position at the moment, it is to his credit, in our submission,

4 that he came to court yesterday, participated in the proceedings fully,

5 and also did today rather than hold up these proceedings. In our

6 submission, that shows a genuine desire to assist this Court.

7 Any proceedings where an accused is struck down by flu, has a

8 temperature and is unwell, are at risk of being disrupted, and it can

9 happen to any of us. And in our submission it would be wholly wrong for

10 the Court at this stage, with such an important witness lined up to be

11 heard over many hours with which the accused has undertaken a considerable

12 amount of research, it would be wholly wrong for his medical condition,

13 which is one that can afflict anyone, to be respected [sic]. And in our

14 submission, the Court should understand his position and resume, as he

15 requests, the proceedings on the Monday. That would be a normal and

16 reasonable approach. To start putting this forward as some sort of

17 pattern I think can lead this Court into grave error in the way of viewing

18 this accused. We know from the medical report that this is completely

19 unrelated to the previous issue which afflicted him.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Kay.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: This is what we'll do: We'll one spend the rest

23 of today's session dealing with the legal arguments relating to the --

24 that evidential issue. Mr. Milosevic, you should be examined by the

25 doctor this afternoon when you return, and at the end of the day we'll

1 decide, having received the medical report on your condition. You may

2 leave now if you -- if you wish. I mean, Mr. Kay can deal with the legal

3 arguments, if that is your wish, or you may stay.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Robinson, I cannot accept

5 anything being done here without my presence.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. Mr. Nice.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Nice. Microphone.

8 JUDGE KWON: Microphone.

9 MR. NICE: So sorry. Have Your Honours had an opportunity of

10 looking at the materials we provided?

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, we have not received them yet.

12 MR. NICE: I'm so sorry. I thought they ... I hoped that they

13 would have found their way to you a little earlier, but ... Now I've

14 mislaid mine. There are three decision, and Mr. Kay and Ms. Higgins, I

15 know, have provided a couple of others.

16 As I explained, first instance decisions have gone both ways. If

17 necessary and if helpful, we can, now that perhaps there's a little more

18 time today possibly make a full collection of what we know of first

19 instance decisions as well, but here are two Appeals Chamber decisions and

20 one first instance decision.

21 The first Appeals Chamber's decision in Brdjanin and Talic is in

22 respect of the subpoena for a journalist to attend, and the first flag is

23 on page 3 at paragraph 4, simply sets out the relevant background.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Nice, I wonder if I can interrupt. I'm

25 speaking for myself, I know, but I find it very difficult to deal with the

1 relevance of an authority to a legal issue without first of all

2 identifying what the proposition is that you're advancing.

3 Now, my principal concern in all this, and I think it probably is

4 the principal concern of all of us, is whether things become somehow or

5 other part of the Prosecution case in the Defence phase, albeit they are

6 not somehow or other accepted by a witness in the course of

7 cross-examination.

8 Now, is there anything on that topic in any of these authorities?

9 MR. NICE: Yes, I think there is.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: There is.

11 MR. NICE: And --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you help first of all by telling me what the

13 proposition is that you're advancing at the moment.

14 MR. NICE: And I'm sorry if I jumped to an assumption that we were

15 working on the same topic. We picked up, really, where we left off

16 yesterday, but our proposition is that the materials that have been laid

17 before the witness, and in particular the two newspaper articles and the

18 extracts from Death of Yugoslavia, are materials that can properly be

19 before the Chamber for the two reasons I advanced yesterday: One, that

20 they are in themselves capable of being evidence of the truth of the

21 things said because they are, even if a speech is of hearsay, and

22 documents tend to be hearsay, they nevertheless qualify under the

23 Tribunal's rules of admissibility. And secondly, they may qualify because

24 they touch on questions of credibility of a witness.

25 And so that the -- that's the underlying proposition. And it's

1 with that in mind that the Brdjanin case summary at paragraph 4 will be of

2 assistance.

3 "Brdjanin was charged with a 12-count indictment with, among other

4 things, crimes against humanity and grave breaches..." Next sentence:

5 "The Prosecution sought to have the article admitted into evidence,

6 claiming it was relevant to establishing that the accused possessed the

7 intent required for several of the crimes charged." The article is an

8 article of the Washington Post. "The Defence objected on several grounds

9 including that the statements attributed to Brdjanin were not accurately

10 reported. The Defence stated that, if the article were admitted, they

11 would seek to examine the appellant so as to call into question the

12 accuracy of the quotations noted above."

13 Now, it may be that with Your Honour's particularly articulated

14 concern we ought to go back to find out a little bit more about the

15 procedure. So if we come back to paragraph 2: "The appeal concerns a

16 subpoena issued by Trial Chamber II to compel the testimony of a war

17 correspondent concerning an interview he conducted while reporting on the

18 conflict in the former Yugoslavia." This is at page 2, paragraph 2.

19 "The appellant --" that's this -- the person, the subject of the

20 subpoena -- "served as a correspondent for the Washington Post in

21 Yugoslavia. On the 11th of February, 1993, the Washington Post carried a

22 story by the appellant containing quoted statements attributed to Radoslav

23 Brdjanin, one of the accused, about the situation in Banja Luka and the

24 surrounding areas. The article described Brdjanin as a 'housing

25 administrator' and 'avowed radical Serb nationalist.' He was quoted as

1 saying that 'those unwilling to defend (Bosnian Serb territory) must be

2 moved out' so as 'to create an ethnically clean space through voluntary

3 movement.' According to the article, Brdjanin said ..." various things

4 attributed to him. And then we came to the summary on paragraph 4.

5 Paragraph 5 -- sorry, I perhaps should complete paragraph 4.

6 "The Defence objected on several grounds, including that the statements

7 attributed to Brdjanin were not accurately reported ... stated that, if

8 the article were admitted, they would seek to examine the appellant so as

9 to call into question the accuracy of the quotations noted above. The

10 Prosecution then requested that the Trial Chamber issue a subpoena to the

11 appellant, and the Trial Chamber complied on the 29th of January."

12 Dates in February and March the subpoena was discussed, and, "At

13 these sessions the Prosecution informed the Trial Chamber that the

14 appellant had refused to comply with the subpoena. And on the 9th of May,

15 the appellant filed a written motion to set aside the subpoena. On the

16 same day, the Prosecution filed its response." And the Trial Chamber

17 heard oral argument on the motion. "Refusing to recognise a testimonial

18 privilege for journalists when no issue of protecting confidential sources

19 was involved, the Trial Chamber upheld the subpoena, and it also found

20 that the article was admissible."

21 So that here we -- although the overall hearing is concerned with

22 the compulsion of the witness, this part of the appeal jurisprudence deals

23 with the admissibility of such an article.

24 And if we can then turn to page 16 and to paragraph 50. Perhaps

25 -- it says this: "In view of the foregoing, the Appeals Chamber holds

1 that in order for a Trial Chamber to issue a subpoena to a war

2 correspondent a two-pronged test must be satisfied. First, the

3 petitioning party must demonstrate that the evidence sought is of direct

4 and important value in determining a core issue in the case. Second, it

5 must demonstrate that the evidence sought cannot reasonably be obtained

6 elsewhere.

7 "Finally, the Appeals Chamber will not address the submissions of

8 the parties on the second ground of the appeal, that is, the application

9 of the proper legal test of the facts. Having determined the principles

10 governing the testimony of war correspondents before the International

11 Tribunal, the Appeals Chamber considers that it is the role of the Trial

12 Chamber to apply these principles in the particular circumstances of the

13 case. The Appeals Chamber would, however, offer the following

14 observations.

15 "First, contrary to the Trial Chamber's apparent fear, even if

16 the Trial Chamber were to decide that the appellant should not be

17 subpoenaed to testify, that need not mean that the article must be

18 excluded (and the Prosecution disadvantaged to that extent). The

19 admissibility of the article depends principally on its probative value

20 under Rule 89(C) and the balance between that probative value and its

21 potential to undermine the fairness of the trial under Rule 89(D).

22 Because the article is hearsay, the Trial Chamber will also want to

23 examine what indicia of reliability or unreliability it carries." And

24 that refers to a decision of this Chamber in Kordic and Cerkez on the

25 statement of a deceased witness.

1 "As with many pieces of hearsay evidence, the inability of a party

2 to challenge its accuracy by cross-examining the declarant (in this case

3 the appellant) does not mean that it must be excluded. Rather, that

4 inability would diminish the confidence the Trial Chamber could have in

5 its accuracy and thus the weight the Trial Chamber would give it.

6 "At the same time, and contrary to the Trial Chamber's apparent

7 counterbalancing fear, admitting the article without subpoenaing the

8 appellant need not prejudice the accused. The Defence may still question

9 the article's accuracy, and the Trial Chamber will have to take account of

10 the unavailability of the appellant in determining how much weight to give

11 the article.

12 "Finally, whatever evidentiary value the article may have, it is

13 the Trial Chamber's task to determine whether the appellant's testimony

14 itself will be of direct and important value to determining a core issue

15 in the case. The Defence has offered two justifications for seeking the

16 appellant's testimony. The first is that his testimony will enable the

17 Defence to challenge the accuracy of the statements attributed to Brdjanin

18 in the article. The second is that the appellant may place Brdjanin's

19 statements in a context that will cast them in a more favourable light ...

20 With regard in particular to the first justification - concerning accuracy

21 - given that the appellant speaks no Serbo-Croatian and thus that he

22 relied on another journalist for interpretation, the Appeals Chamber finds

23 it difficult to imagine how the appellant's testimony could be of direct

24 and important value to determining a core issue in the case. In any

25 event, determining whether the appellant's testimony on either score may

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 have direct and important value to a core issue in the case requires a

2 factual determination that is properly left to the Trial Chamber.

3 "Therefore, should the Prosecution ... still desire that the

4 appellant be subpoenaed to testify before the International Tribunal it

5 will have to submit a new application..."

6 Thus, then, the Appeals Chamber decision on the approach or an

7 approach to be taken to a newspaper article. And that brings us in a

8 two-stage process to His Honour Judge Bonomy's particularly articulated

9 concern dealt with persuasively, not authoritatively in the Appeals

10 Chamber sitting on appeal from the ICTR in the following case of Rutaganda

11 decided by a Court comprising His Honour Judge Meron, Judge Pocar, Jorda,

12 Shahabuddeen and Guney, a judgement rendered on the 26th of May of 2003.

13 And if Your Honours would go to, as it appears here, page 9 of 13, under

14 heading C, Cross-examination of Rutaganda Using Collateral Documents.

15 "The appellant submits that the Trial Chamber erred in law by

16 allowing the Prosecution to use three non-disclosed documents during his

17 cross-examination. The documents at issue are pictures taken from a book

18 in the ICTR library, an Agence France Press newspaper clipping, and the

19 articles of the Association of Radio Television Libre Mille Collines

20 showing the initial shareholders. The appellant argues that as these

21 documents were not disclosed during the Prosecution case, the Prosecution

22 was effectively permitted to split its case. In addition, according to

23 the appellant, the documents were admitted as hearsay evidence without any

24 inquiry being made as to their reliability.

25 "Lastly, the appellant argues that the Trial Chamber failed to

1 apply the principle of equality of arms. In support of this submission,

2 the appellant cites a specific example to show that a different standard

3 was imposed on him. The appellant concludes that the prejudice suffered

4 calls for a retrial.

5 "The Prosecution submits that the arguments are baseless, contends

6 that the documents, deemed relevant to the cross-examination by the Trial

7 Chamber, were not subject to disclosure and no prejudice was suffered by

8 the appellant through the use of the documents.

9 "The record shows that the start of the cross-examination -- at

10 the start of the cross-examination of the appellant, the Prosecution

11 presented the Chamber with a file containing documents that it intended to

12 use during cross-examination. The three documents cited by the appellant

13 were also within the file,