1 Tuesday, 14 October 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff. Can you see if you can get

7 through this in 40 minutes --

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

9 JUDGE MAY: -- and that will then be three hours in all.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

11 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 WITNESS: MILAN MILANOVIC [Resumed]

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff: [Continued]

16 Q. Witness, before the break, we had started to speak about

17 personnel from the Serbian state security in the region. And you have

18 already mentioned Radoslav Kostic being there. And in your statement you

19 mentioned Branko Glusica. Where was he situated within the region? Where

20 was his office?

21 A. [No interpretation]

22 JUDGE MAY: We're not getting a translation of that.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the English on this channel?

24 JUDGE MAY: Try again.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

1 Q. Can you repeat your answer. We didn't get any translation of

2 your answer. Where was Mr. Glusica sitting?

3 A. For a while, it was in Dalj, and then in Vukovar.

4 THE INTERPRETER: We're switching to another channel, Your

5 Honours.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

7 Q. And did he share an office? Did he share an office with another

8 official from your region?

9 A. Yes, he did, with the chief of SUP in Vukovar.

10 Q. You have mentioned in your statement a certain Lemic, alias Milan

11 Lakic. What dealings did you have with him?

12 A. Lemic was in the area of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, and

13 he was in the negotiating team, mine, when we negotiated with the Croats,

14 or rather, the Erdut agreement, when it was signed.

15 Q. How did he get into your team? Did you select him or did someone

16 else decide that he should be on the team?

17 A. I can't remember exactly, but yes, he was a member of the team at

18 any rate.

19 Q. Those personnel -- those members from the Serbian DB, to whom did

20 they report? Do you know that?

21 A. I don't know that.

22 Q. You have described the power structure in the region, mentioning

23 the JNA and its power and then the shift of power when Badza arrived. In

24 the power structure in the region in Slavonia, Baranja, Western Srem, what

25 was the position of the personnel of the Serbian DB?

1 A. I didn't understand your question.

2 Q. The Serbian DB personnel, what was its position in regard to

3 power, influence?

4 A. A great deal of influence.

5 Q. I will now talk with you about the -- your own meetings with

6 Mr. Milosevic. And we have to -- you have described this here in the

7 courtroom and we cannot refer to your previous statement.

8 When did you meet Mr. Milosevic for the first time and what was

9 the purpose of the meeting? You do not need to find it in your statement,

10 Mr. Milanovic. Just as you remember it.

11 A. Well, I met Mr. Milosevic for the first time in 1993 and 1994.

12 The object of the meeting was going to -- the representatives of Slavonia,

13 Baranja, and Western Srem going to his cabinet, his offices. Goran Hadzic

14 led the delegation. I can't remember exactly what it was that we

15 discussed on that first meeting.

16 Q. Did you see Mr. Milosevic in relation to the Vance Plan at some

17 point in time?

18 A. Yes, we did go.

19 Q. Do you recall when that was?

20 A. That was a little earlier on. It was a large delegation, and the

21 topic of discussion was acceptance of the Vance Owen Plan and preparations

22 for the arrival of the international community to the area.

23 Q. Did you meet Mr. Milosevic in a delegation in relation to the

24 elections in the RSK?

25 A. Yes, I did

1 Q. And what was -- did Mr. Milosevic request anything of you and the

2 delegation at that time?

3 A. Well, the topic of the meeting were elections in Republika Srpska

4 Krajina, and the subject was who the president would be. And

5 Mr. Milosevic at the time placed Mr. Milan Maric in the forefront, in

6 relation to the others.

7 Q. And what about Mr. Hadzic? Did he become a candidate, and what

8 was Mr. Milosevic's position as to that fact?

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Milan Martic, with a

10 "T."

11 A. At the time, it was Mr. Milosevic's position that Goran Hadzic

12 should not be a candidate, but nonetheless he was a candidate. However,

13 at the elections, Mr. Martic won.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

15 Q. Did Mr. Martic win in the first round? Do you recall?

16 A. No. He won in the second round of the elections, and the

17 opposite candidate was Milan Babic.

18 Q. And in the first round, when Mr. Hadzic took part as a candidate,

19 did that cause any friction between you and the Serbian MUP and others you

20 were related to?

21 A. Yes. There was tension, because in the first round I did not

22 lend my support to Milan Martic, and this was not seen as being the thing

23 to do.

24 In the second round, Radovan Stojicic, Badza, prevailed upon me,

25 to influence me to help, and Martic won.

1 Q. You have described your activities as head of the negotiation

2 team in 1995 and 1996. In this time period, did you meet Mr. Milosevic?

3 A. Yes, I did, several times.

4 Q. Would -- why would you meet him? What was the purpose of such

5 meetings?

6 A. Well, the subject was preparations for talks with Croatia, the

7 Croatian side, and the international community.

8 Q. Would you consult with Mr. Milosevic before you go -- you went to

9 such negotiations and afterwards or not?

10 A. In most cases, yes.

11 Q. Were suggestions made to you how to behave during the

12 negotiations?

13 A. More or less, yes.

14 Q. Did you ever act against these suggestions, or did you follow?

15 A. It depended.

16 Q. Yes. Can you give us an example where you did not follow?

17 A. Well, there was the question of who would be a member of the

18 delegation, and we didn't agree on that score at the beginning.

19 Q. Yes. Can you -- can you describe what was requested, who should

20 be in the delegation, and what happened?

21 A. We formed a delegation of the Srem and Baranja region for

22 negotiations with the Croats, and Goran Hadzic was not among the members.

23 Mr. Milosevic, however, insisted that Goran Hadzic become a member of the

24 delegation, and that's what happened in the end.

25 Q. And how did Hadzic later then during the negotiations behave

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1 towards you?

2 A. Well, I can't really assess that now, but at first glance he was

3 correct and proper, but I think he was working behind our backs.

4 Q. When you had conversations with Mr. Milosevic, how would you

5 address him and how would he address you?

6 A. I always addressed him as "Mr. President." And he would mostly

7 call me "Mrgud."

8 Q. Were you offered a Croatian peace proposal by

9 Ambassador Galbraith at some point in time? And what did you do?

10 A. Yes, that's right. Ambassador Galbraith did offer a proposal

11 from the Croatian side, and in part from the international community as

12 well. And when he came to see me that day - and the situation was complex

13 in Krajina - Western Slavonia, and the lower half of the Knin Krajina had

14 fallen, militarily speaking, and the possibility existed of war breaking

15 out in the area of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem as well. And

16 Ambassador Galbraith came to see me. He brought with him his plan or,

17 rather, a draft plan, a proposal, and I said that I would accept it,

18 accept reviewing it, in fact, and that I would give him an answer in a few

19 days' time. However, I was called to Belgrade because on the RTS

20 television station this was interpreted as me having signed an agreement

21 already. So they called me to Belgrade the next day. Badza called me to

22 attend a meeting with Mr. Milosevic, where the people present were the

23 late Minister Sokolovic, Stanisic, Badza, and Mr. Milosevic himself. So I

24 was there, and they asked me what I had done, whether I had signed

25 anything. And I said -- I explained to them that I had signed nothing,

1 that I had just taken the draft proposal or plan, which we would then

2 consider and review, and then tell them that we would enter into

3 negotiation and not outright reject it, as Martic did the Z4 plan, and the

4 lower part of Krajina felt as a result.

5 Q. You actually have --

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And I will now turn to tab 27 of the Exhibit

7 549.

8 Q. You have actually provided the agreement, the Erdut agreement.

9 And it's at tab 27. That was finally the end result of all the

10 negotiations. And we do not go into details, but before signing it, did

11 you get a message from someone to do that?, to sign it?

12 A. Yes. Well, this is a complicated issue. At the time of the

13 signing of the agreement, the Serb delegation or Yugoslav delegation was

14 in Dayton. I myself had entered the final stages of the negotiations

15 because Tudjman didn't want to sign the Dayton Accords until the question

16 of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem was solved. And on the eve of the

17 signing, as I state in my statement, I received a message from the

18 delegation at Dayton, which was led by Mr. Milosevic. I received this

19 message via the assistant foreign affairs minister, Zika Jovanovic, that I

20 should -- to the effect that I should sign the agreement, and I received

21 that message on Friday. I explained what happened with respect to

22 Saturday or, rather, with respect to Friday afternoon, that from the

23 Ministry of Foreign Affairs I went to see Badza at the MUP building and

24 that he called Dayton up and Mr. Stanisic, and Stanisic said in his

25 message - he sent us a telegram - I can't remember the exact words, but

1 I'll try and quote: "I've tried everything with the president, but we've

2 lost Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem. God save them." Badza answered

3 to this message, "Don't you sign tomorrow. Let them -- let the president

4 call me if he wants the agreement to be signed." And I said to him, "But

5 Badza, if I don't sign tomorrow, they're going to attack on Sunday." I

6 meant the Croats. And he was -- took the hard line and said, "Come and

7 see me on Monday, unless I ring up to tell you otherwise."

8 So nonetheless, in agreement with Galbraith and Stoltenberg, on

9 Saturday I did sign the agreement, and after that they started to attack

10 me. Mr. Milosevic's closest associates attacked me and criticised me for

11 having done that, asking me why I did that, Kertes and all the rest, not

12 the enumerate them all. So that would be that in brief.

13 Q. And did you meet afterwards Mr. Milosevic, and what did he tell

14 you in relation to your signing the Dayton -- the agreement, the Erdut

15 agreement?

16 A. Mr. Milosevic told me that I had done the right thing and that

17 was the only possible option at that point in time. And he asked me

18 whether anybody had been attacking him [as interpreted] of his associates.

19 I kept quiet on that score and said that nobody attacked me because I

20 considered that that was the best line to take at that time.

21 Q. After the Dayton -- the Erdut agreement was signed, did you

22 continue to have meetings with Milosevic related to the implementation of

23 the Erdut agreement?

24 A. Yes, I did. From time to time, I had meetings with respect to

25 the implementation of the agreement.

1 Q. And turning to tab 29 of the Exhibit 549, we have here an

2 invitation to a meeting in Belgrade, and there is a reference made on top

3 in handwriting, saying "for Mira from Branko." Can you tell us what that

4 means, "for Mira from Branko"? Or rather, it's not handwriting, it's

5 typed. Sorry.

6 A. Well, that means that this was a way of communication. The

7 secretary of Mr. Milosevic, between her and myself. And my nickname on

8 this occasion was Branko.

9 Q. Did you meet in the -- in the Serbian Presidency at a location

10 where also there was Mr. Borislav Mikelic?

11 A. Yes, that's right. And I described that in my statement.

12 Q. But you have to describe it now for us. Tell us when it was and

13 what happened.

14 A. Well, roughly that was after August 1995, when the lower part of

15 Krajina fell. We had a meeting in the Presidency, and after the meeting

16 Mr. Milosevic told me to stay behind, that he needed me for something.

17 And at the meeting there were the representatives of Slavonia, Baranja,

18 and Western Srem present, because the lower part of Krajina had fallen, as

19 I said. And among other things, the topic of discussion was -- Mikelic

20 was -- and Mr. Milosevic spoke about him in adverse terms on that

21 occasion. And when we left, after the meeting we went to another room,

22 Mr. Mikelic was there, and Mr. Milosevic asked me to help him with

23 something. I was a little taken aback, him having spoken about the man in

24 derogatory terms at one meeting and asking me to help him at the next, and

25 that he wanted to evict Babic from an office in Belgrade, from a

1 commission, in fact, and have Mikelic take his place. And that was done.

2 Q. Why did he ask you to do -- get involved?

3 A. Well, I don't know, actually. I was wondering, but probably

4 because I was close to Badza, so he thought this would smooth the way,

5 because otherwise Badza did not have a good attitude towards Mikelic

6 himself.

7 Q. Were you asked to see Mr. Milosevic in April 1996, an occasion

8 that ended your career in the region?

9 A. Yes, that's right. Around about that time I did go to see

10 Mr. Milosevic, and I felt that something was wrong, because for the first

11 time after a long time I did not make up the delegation which would go to

12 see the president. But nonetheless, I did take all the people that I

13 considered were important, and they did attend the meeting.

14 Q. And what was requested of you on that meeting?

15 A. I was requested, as Mr. Milosevic put it - and Goran Hadzic said

16 this too - that I should no -- that I was no longer necessary and that he

17 had quite a few comments and criticisms, nor was I desirable, and that I

18 had to be replaced. And I said, "All right, go ahead and replace me."

19 But they couldn't replace me, and that is why they proposed a meeting, for

20 this to be done in Belgrade. I did not agree to that; however, at

21 Mr. Milosevic's proposal we withdrew the next day in the morning at 10.00

22 from our posts; Kojic Ilija, Slavko Dokmanovic, and myself, we withdrew.

23 Q. You said that they could not replace you. Why could they not

24 replace you?

25 A. Well, I can't actually say why. Had they been able to do so,

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1 they would have done that. Well, probably they didn't have the necessary

2 power and authority. They needed support from Mr. Milosevic, and they got

3 that support.

4 Q. In relation to this criticism against you, was there a -- the

5 disconnection of a pipeline between Djeletovci and Pancevo involved?

6 A. [No interpretation]

7 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. We're not getting the interpretation

8 again. Could you try again, please, Mr. Milanovic.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right. That was one of

10 the criticisms made against me, but it was not the right one, that I had

11 done it on my own arbitrarily, turned off the Djeletovci-Pancevo pipeline.

12 I did this in collaboration -- in agreement with Milutinovic, who at that

13 time was the foreign minister, and Tomic, who was at the time the director

14 of the oil company in Serbia. As the embargo had been lifted after

15 Dayton, Serbia was able to import oil. And for it to be able to import

16 oil, our pipeline had to be extinguished for the pipeline passing through

17 Croatia to Pancevo to be able to be operational.

18 Q. You have described in your statement the -- your frequent

19 disputes with Milan Martic.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And in relation to that, I would like to

21 refer to tab 28 of the Exhibit binder 549 as an example to this dispute

22 with Milan Martic, and we do not need to go further into this.

23 Q. Just this one question: Did Mr. Milosevic call you in regard of

24 disputes with Milan Martic in relation to the officer Sladojevic?

25 A. Yes, that's right. Mr. Milosevic called me, probably not

1 personally, but his secretary did, and the topic of discussion was the

2 commander of the 11th Corps. That was the corps of Srem and Baranja, the

3 Srem-Baranja Corps. And Milan Martic wanted to change -- replace

4 Sladojevic. He had wanted to do so several months prior to that. At a

5 meeting, this was agreed although I did not accept this decision and

6 Sladojevic's replacement did not take place.

7 The next time, several months later, he probably complained to

8 Mr. Milosevic and said that he would like to make some personnel changes

9 in the 11th Corps but that he couldn't do so because I was in the way. So

10 I was called up, and Mr. Milosevic told me that Martic -- that this was

11 something that Martic wanted to do but that he was having problems with me

12 and that I should give in, which I did, and the replacement took place

13 after a brief period of time. And instead of General Sladojevic, we had

14 General Loncar.

15 Q. Did you in June 1995 intercept a transport of 8 million dinars

16 from the SDK Ilok to Knin? And if so, did Mr. Milosevic get involved in

17 this?

18 A. Yes, this did happen. One evening I was called up by Slavko

19 Dokmanovic and the director of the SDK in Vukovar, and this was around

20 12.00 in the evening, that the operation was underway of withdrawing money

21 from the SDK in Ilok and to have it illegally transferred to Knin, without

22 any lawful or legal decision of the Krajina region, of the Krajina bank.

23 I checked this out. I believed Dokmanovic and the director of the

24 SDK of Vukovar when they said that it was illegal, and I reported it to

25 the police, and the police stopped the kombi at the border carrying 8

1 million dinars, and these funds were returned to the area. Mr. Milosevic

2 had no part in this at all.

3 Q. Did he call you on this occasion and inquire?

4 A. After a certain period of time, Martic requested the money, and

5 he complained with the president, and this was a topic discussed at a

6 meeting. However, we didn't enter into the details of it.

7 Q. During the preparation of your testimony, did you listen to a

8 variety of intercepted conversation?

9 A. I did.

10 Q. And did you sign a declaration related to the voices that you

11 recognised?

12 A. I did.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, that's the special exhibit

14 binder 551, and the first tab is actually this declaration that the

15 witness made.

16 Q. Did you know these people that you recognised from personal

17 conversations and also from their public appearances?

18 A. Mostly from personal contacts, but a fewer number from the media.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I really think it's absurd for such

22 a witness to confirm intercepted conversations. Most of these

23 conversations are between Radovan Karadzic and Jovica Stanisic. They're

24 not even very important. But that is not the point. What is the point is

25 that he cannot be considered qualified to say whether those conversations

1 are authentic or not. He had nothing to do with Karadzic. He may have

2 met Stanisic three times in his life.

3 JUDGE MAY: That's all a matter of evidence, and the witness can

4 go -- give evidence about the knowledge which he has or doesn't have about

5 these speakers. No doubt the Prosecution are going to cover that. And

6 if --

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Your Honour.

8 Q. Did -- how familiar were you with the voice of Stanisic, as an

9 example?

10 A. Within a range of 1 to 5, I would say 4. I would give it 4, a

11 mark of 4.

12 Q. Did you know him from personal -- did you know his voice from

13 personal contacts you had?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And in relation to Kertes?

16 A. The same would apply to him.

17 Q. We have already addressed some of these people, but what about

18 Legija? How did -- how were you -- how familiar were you with his voice?

19 A. I know his voice well.

20 Q. From personal contacts?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And the person Simatovic, that you identified, how do you know

23 his voice?

24 A. I know him personally too.

25 Q. And in relation to Karadzic, how would you know his voice?

1 A. I met him only once, in 1991, but I know that voice from the

2 media.

3 Q. And in relation to Sokolovic?

4 A. I met him several times too.

5 Q. And Simatovic, Franko Simatovic?

6 A. We've already said that I met him several times.

7 Q. And lastly, Mladic, General Mladic?

8 A. I never met him, but he has a specific voice recognisable through

9 the media.

10 Q. In relation to these intercepts, I just want to ask you in

11 relation to tab 10 of that binder. There is an intercepted conversation

12 between Mr. Milosevic and Mr. Karadzic referring to the persons Ratko and

13 Vladan. Who would that be? Can you help us with that?

14 It's a very short -- yes, please. If you recall who that is. It's tab

15 10, and it's a very brief intercept. And just the reference to Ratko and

16 Vladan.

17 A. I remember that conversation because it wasn't long ago. And I

18 assume from the conversation that they were referring to certain

19 specialised legal matters and that references were made to Ratko. And

20 what was the other name? I forgot.

21 Q. Vladan. Vladan.

22 A. And Vladan. Ratko Markovic would be the vice-premier, and

23 Kutlesic, who was also a counsellor -- I can't remember his exact

24 position. But I know Mr. Ratko Markovic in person, and I know that he

25 worked in the government as the vice-president of the government or

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1 vice-premier.

2 Q. And you're speaking of the government of Serbia?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And in two of the conversations where we have Arkan and Legija,

5 there is a code number used as number 99. Do you know what code number 99

6 refers to?

7 A. It was Arkan's code during the war.

8 Q. And in tab 23 --

9 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, if you could tell me where we

10 can find Vladan and Ratko.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That's in tab 10.

12 JUDGE KWON: I couldn't find it.

13 [Prosecution counsel confer]

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, you have to actually look into

15 the B/C/S version, because the correct -- the correct spelling is in the

16 B/C/S version. And in the English version there is a -- a mistake.

17 JUDGE KWON: Was it translated as "Laden" and "Ratio"?

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, and when you see the original, it's

19 Vladan and Ratko. So there is a wrong translation to that effect. I'm

20 sorry, I forgot to mention that.

21 And the two intercepts that I just mentioned with the code

22 number, that's tab 21 and tab 23.

23 Q. And in relation to tab 23, on the -- actually, at the end of this

24 conversation, there is reference made to a -- a person Bojovic. Do you

25 know to which -- do you know this person Bojovic and to which formation he

1 belongs? It's a conversation between -- it's tab 23, a conversation

2 between Legija and the headquarters of the Serb Volunteer Guard. It's

3 actually the last -- the last line before the greetings.

4 A. I remember that conversation because Legija was speaking to an

5 unknown person. I assume it was the secretary of Mr. Raznjatovic. And

6 she says, "Say hello to Bojovic," so I assume this applies to a soldier

7 who was in the field together with Legija.

8 Q. But you are not familiar with a soldier Bojovic among the

9 Arkan's?

10 A. Well, in a haze I could sort of recollect, but I can't remember

11 exactly.

12 Q. Just a very few -- a final question in relation to the Skorpions.

13 You have described the Skorpions being involved and sent to the Bihac

14 region. When they were in this region, to whom were they subordinated

15 then?

16 A. They were subordinated to the command of the army of the Republic

17 of Serbian Krajina.

18 Q. And to get to the battlefield in Bihac, would they have to cross

19 through Serbia?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Were the Serbian authorities aware of that movement?

22 A. Yes. But we thought at the time that we -- there were -- that no

23 one was violating any agreement, as that was one army.

24 Q. What do you mean "one army"?

25 A. I'm referring to the army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

1 The region of Srem and Baranja was physically separated from the lower

2 part of Krajina and there no was no other way of reaching the lower part

3 of Krajina.

4 Q. And you also mentioned the Skorpions being present in Trnovo in

5 Bosnia in 1994. How did the Skorpions get there? Would they have to go

6 through Serbia?

7 A. Yes, yes. Again, the Republika Srpska was physically separated

8 and there was no way of reaching it except through the Republic of Serbia.

9 Q. And while the Skorpions were in Trnovo, to whom were they

10 subordinated?

11 A. To the MUP of the Republika Srpska.

12 Q. You described the deployment of the Skorpions in Kosovo, and

13 especially the first deployment when you accompanied them a short way. At

14 that time, was there a mobilisation in Serbia underway?

15 A. Yes. The Skorpions went to Kosovo seven or eight days after the

16 NATO bombing. And on the first day of the bombing, in the Federal

17 Republic of Yugoslavia, a state of war was proclaimed, which meant that

18 the mobilisation was proclaimed and ongoing.

19 Q. And why did Medic call you instead of just getting mobilised with

20 the JNA -- or the VJ, in this case?

21 A. Medic called me because he didn't want him and his men, the men

22 he knew from Slavonia, to go under the command of the army of Yugoslavia.

23 He wanted to go as part of the MUP of Serbia.

24 Q. And finally, Ovcara. You have described how you heard and got

25 aware of the Ovcara mass grave and how you informed Colonel Grahovac about

1 this fact. In relation to this event, we have tab 32 of the Exhibit 549.

2 And it's a report, actually, from Colonel Grahovac in relation to his

3 findings. It's the last -- it's the last tab in the binder that you have.

4 And in the last paragraph, there is a reference saying, "According to our

5 intelligence, bodies have allegedly been moved from Ovcara site." It's on

6 the last page, the last paragraph. And -- it's the last paragraph, the

7 bodies. Do you know who -- if bodies were removed and who did that?

8 A. Only on the basis of rumours. But this was never proven, and it

9 is well known that in 1998 the bodies were found.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, I have a little bit -- or I

11 have taken a little bit too much time. I'm sorry.

12 JUDGE MAY: Just deal, if you would, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff -- let's

13 just tidy this up. The exhibit binder for the intercepts 551, marked for

14 identification so far, of course, like the other intercepts, tab 2 is the

15 compact disk.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

17 JUDGE MAY: And at the moment the Registry don't seem to have it,

18 we don't seem to have it. Obviously it -- that should be tidied up and we

19 should give it --

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. We have copies just made.

21 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: At the moment.

23 JUDGE MAY: Well, hand them in, if you would, at the break.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And you have seen that I have skipped two

2 documents because there was no time to deal with that, but they are not so

3 crucial.

4 JUDGE MAY: I can see that.

5 If the legal officer would come up, please.

6 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before I begin, Mr. May, could I at

10 least know what's under tab 2 on this disk that no one has received, and

11 now it is being tendered into evidence following the testimony of this

12 witness? Could I at least be told what it is?

13 JUDGE MAY: It's the -- according to the document -- yes,

14 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MAY: As I understand it, it's the compact disk containing

17 all the intercepts.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Exactly, Your Honour. The declaration is

19 tab 1, the CD is tab 2, and tab 3 to 27 is -- are the transcripts. And on

20 the CD there is actually in the order how they were played the -- the

21 intercepted conversations are played.

22 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

23 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

25 Just for the record, so it is quite clear that not a single of

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1 those -- one of those conversations was played here in the presence of the

2 witness.

3 JUDGE MAY: No.

4 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, would you deal with the point that the

5 accused is making. He doesn't seem to have understood the position. Were

6 these intercepts played to the witness?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's true.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, they were all played to the witness in

9 the order of the declaration and also in the order of the CD. It's -- it

10 would just take too much time to have it all produced here in the

11 courtroom.

12 JUDGE MAY: We're not -- we're not having them played here, for

13 that reason. But he signed a declaration that he's identified the voices.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Yes, Your Honour, he did that. And it

15 is indicated exactly which voice he recognised and which not. And he does

16 not make any comments further than that in the declaration.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Milanovic, tell me, to the best of your

20 recollection, when did tensions start in Eastern Slavonia?

21 A. Tensions in Eastern Slavonia started in May 1991.

22 Q. Was there any tension during the time of the elections, prior to

23 the elections in 1990?

24 A. Yes, there was some tension in 1990 and in 1991 in the area of

25 the Republic of Croatia.

1 Q. And what was happening in 1990?

2 A. It is well known that the elections were being prepared in the

3 Republic of Croatia. It is also common knowledge that the HDZ party came

4 into power, headed by Tudjman. It is also well known that from the

5 constitution the Serbs were thrown out as a nation.

6 Q. When were they eliminated from the constitution?

7 A. I can't remember exactly, but I think it was several months after

8 the HDZ came to power.

9 Q. Very well. Now, when the constitution was changed and a number

10 of laws promulgated - I assume you remember that - what was the effect

11 this had among the Serb population? I'm not talking about the whole of

12 Croatia, I'm just talking about the area that you are familiar with, that

13 is, the area of Eastern Slavonia. So on the basis of your own knowledge,

14 not on the basis of the newspapers or political debates that were going

15 on.

16 A. The effect among people was fear as to what would happen next.

17 Q. Would you please describe that fear for me, what kind of fear it

18 was.

19 A. People feared because the Serbs had still not forgotten 1941 and

20 they felt that problems could occur on an ethnic basis, that they might

21 lose their rights, such as the right to employment and the other rights

22 they enjoyed, and people were afraid and they started to organise

23 themselves into their own national parties.

24 Q. Tell me, to the best of your recollection, when did the first

25 cases of Serbs being fired from public services occur? For example, the

1 police and other public services.

2 A. Regarding public services, I can't know everything but I can

3 remember with respect to the police. I think these happenings occurred in

4 January, February, March 1991.

5 Q. Were the Serbs expelled from the police en masse?

6 A. I can't say that they were dismissed en masse, but they were

7 fired.

8 Q. So from the beginning of 1991?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, tell me, when were the first acts of violence against Serbs

11 in Eastern Slavonia? Not counting these expulsions from work but physical

12 violence, physical attacks.

13 A. A major incident occurred on the 2nd of May in Borovo Selo, when

14 the Croatian police came and there was an armed conflict at the time.

15 Q. And before Borovo Selo, were there individual incidents, murders,

16 cases of people disappearing that you're aware of?

17 A. I can't remember.

18 Q. When was that in Borovo Selo?

19 A. On the 2nd of May, 1991.

20 Q. Were you in Borovo Selo at the time?

21 A. No, I was not.

22 Q. And how far is Borovo Selo from your place? What did you learn

23 about that? What had happened in Borovo Selo in 1991?

24 A. Well, my place is about 20 kilometres away from Borovo Selo, and

25 I learnt that the Croatian police left from Osijek and Vinkovci, that they

1 went in two buses - or several buses, I can't remember exactly - and that

2 they started out to take down the Serb flag, which had been flying in the

3 centre of Borovo Selo on the local community building.

4 Q. And what happened then?

5 A. There was an armed conflict.

6 Q. You mentioned the elections in 1990. You took part in those

7 elections; is that right?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. Do you remember that in Eastern Slavonia the largest number of

10 the Serb electorate voted for the League of Communists of Croatia, the SPD

11 party, because there were deputies on that -- those parties' lists that

12 were elected to the Sabor, or Croatian parliament, from that region? Is

13 that right?

14 A. At those elections in Slavonia, the Serbian Democratic Party had

15 not been set up yet; that is to say, the party for which the Serbs voted

16 in the other parts of Croatia where it had been established. And so for

17 the most part the Serbs voted for Racan.

18 Q. All right. Now, did the citizens of Serb ethnicity vote for the

19 League of Communists of Croatia, the SDP, believing that the party was in

20 favour of Yugoslavia and that it was against the war, that it was in

21 favour of peace, in fact?

22 A. That party declared itself in that way at that time.

23 Q. And how -- now, I'm talking about you as a citizen. How did this

24 affect you, your friends, your neighbours, the citizens of Eastern

25 Slavonia? How did this change in the constitution affect you, that the

1 Serbs had been expelled from the constitution, that the chequer-board

2 emblem was introduced, and all the rest of it? How did that affect and

3 influence you, for example?

4 A. Well, we didn't feel at ease.

5 Q. You didn't feel comfortable? Is that it?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And do you remember when in Croatia the volunteer detachments

8 began to be formed or, rather, the different paramilitary formations which

9 were nationalistic and very hostile towards the Serb population? Since

10 when do you know of their existence, for example?

11 A. Well, roughly from the middle of 1991.

12 Q. Is it true that already in the summer of 1990 that mass

13 provocations started, pressure exerted on the JNA and its members, their

14 family members, and so on and so forth? Would that be true?

15 A. As far as I knew at the time, there were individual cases of that

16 kind.

17 Q. And do you remember that in the course of 1990 over 70 cases of

18 provocation and physical attacks were registered against members of the

19 JNA?

20 A. No, I don't remember that piece of information.

21 Q. All right, then. So you just remember the individual attacks; is

22 that right?

23 A. I've already said that.

24 Q. All right. Very well. Fine. Now, tell me this, please: Before

25 the active conflicts, such as the one that started in Borovo Selo, et

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1 cetera, do you recall that the members of MUP stormed the police stations

2 in which there were mostly Serbs and later on in the evening hours they

3 confiscated weapons which existed there for the reserve police force, new

4 police stations were opened up, mostly where the Serbs lived or in a mixed

5 environment, with a mixed population? Do you remember those events?

6 A. I do remember those events, and they went parallel to this

7 situation: The Yugoslav People's Army confiscated weapons from the

8 Territorial Defence on the one side and the MUP of Croatia confiscated

9 weapons from its reserve force, which was predominantly populated by the

10 Serbs.

11 Q. What you want to say is in the areas where there was a Serb

12 population; is that where the weapons were taken away from the reserve

13 police force? Is that right?

14 A. Yes, roughly.

15 Q. Very well. Now, is it also true that following orders from the

16 Presidency of the SFRY, which were common knowledge that, the Serbs in

17 Croatia, especially in the Knin Krajina, they returned their weapons;

18 whereas, the Croatian forces did not do so?

19 A. I don't remember that.

20 Q. And do you remember that at the time certain mobilisation had

21 taken place into formations that were established, the Croatian National

22 Guards Corps, for example, and the reserve composition of the MUP of

23 Croatia? Do you remember that?

24 A. All I remember is that the MUP of the Republic of Croatia

25 reinforced its reserve composition in the police.

1 Q. And have you heard of the National Guards Corps, the ZNG?

2 A. Later on, when there was active operation, when that started I

3 heard about it. But I don't know when this was actually established.

4 Q. All right. Now, tell me this: Is it true that the arming of the

5 Serbs became intensified only after the SFRY Presidency meeting held on

6 the 12th of March, 1991, when the proposal was rejected from the Secretary

7 of National Defence to introduce a state of emergency in the country and

8 when the attempt fell through made by the Presidency in December 1990 to

9 disarm the paramilitaries in the SFRY?

10 A. Well, it is my position that the Serbs started arming themselves

11 when they saw that there was -- that they couldn't count on political

12 negotiations and that the possibility of war breaking out was there. I

13 think that that's when this parallel armament took place, that is to say,

14 the Serbs began arming themselves and so did the Croats.

15 Q. All right. And do you know when this illegal import of weapons

16 or purchase of weapons for the Croatian paramilitaries began? Did you

17 know anything about that?

18 A. I did hear about it, but I can't say for sure what the date was

19 when this started, but I do know that Croatia imported arms through

20 Hungary and our army let that happen. And I also know that there was a

21 plane of some kind which landed at the airport and then this -- these

22 weapons were confiscated. I think that it landed at Zagreb airport, and

23 then it was forced to be taken and go on to Belgrade. I remember those

24 two details.

25 Q. Well, do you remember when the campaign started, launched by the

1 Croatian authorities, with respect to the blockade of military JNA

2 facilities on the territory of Croatia?

3 A. I remember that there was a blockade. Now, when it took place

4 exactly, I can't remember. But I assume at the same time that you asked a

5 question before this, as the political negotiations fell through, the

6 situation became more complicated.

7 Q. All right. Now, in your view, would you say that the population

8 - and we're talking about the Serb population - was exposed realistically

9 to a danger of its life? Was this a realistic threat, faced with a

10 situation of that kind, in the general mood that prevailed at the time,

11 after the enactment of the constitution, after they had been dismissed

12 from their work, after all the pressure, and finally after the physical

13 conflicts, was this fear justified?

14 A. The fear was justified, both on the Serb side and on the Croatian

15 side.

16 Q. Well, tell me, please: What caused fear in the Serb population

17 of Eastern Slavonia?

18 A. Well, there was fear in Eastern Slavonia due to the events that

19 came to pass in Borovo Selo on the 2nd of May, for example. That caused

20 quite a lot of fear.

21 Q. All right. And is it true that the JNA from the very beginning,

22 that is to say, from those first conflicts, endeavoured to separate the

23 conflicting parties or, rather, to calm the situation down?

24 A. At the very beginning, yes. However, as the political

25 negotiations showed that there was no hope for success, so the Croats

1 started leaving the army and the army was replenished with Serbs from the

2 regular formations or from the reservists, so that the army in fact became

3 Serb more and more and on the Serb side.

4 Q. All right. And is it true that it was precisely due to the

5 efforts made by the JNA to prevent conflicts and to stand between the two

6 sides that in the field, on the ground where you were, that your various

7 local volunteer detachments had a very negative relationship towards the

8 army and criticised it and said that they were traitors precisely because

9 the army wanted to be neutral and to separate the two conflicting parties?

10 I'm sure you remember those events.

11 A. Yes, there were cases of that kind.

12 Q. At that time, the JNA was deployed throughout the territory of

13 Yugoslavia; isn't that right, Mr. Milanovic?

14 A. If we're talking about the period up to the 2nd of May, 1991,

15 then the answer is yes.

16 Q. Well, wasn't it there throughout 1991 as well?

17 A. I'm not quite sure actually when the events in Slovenia took

18 place.

19 Q. All right. We're not talking about Slovenia now, we're talking

20 about Croatia. There's somebody else who's going to talk about Slovenia.

21 Tell me now, please: You were later the deputy or assistant

22 defence minister, isn't that right, so you delved in politics in a way,

23 right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Isn't it true that in that year of 1990 and 1991 that the army

1 did not meddle in politics at all and it exclusively dealt with its own

2 affairs and assignments, the protection of its units and efforts to

3 separate the two conflicting parties to prevent an all-out conflict from

4 breaking out?

5 A. As for 1990, I don't know, I can't say. But as to the end of

6 1991 or, rather, the middle of 1991, that would be true, yes.

7 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, is it true that the relationship of

8 the local Serb population at that time towards the JNA was such that they

9 were ready even to enter into a conflict with members of the JNA to

10 prevent military equipment and armament being taken away from the

11 territory of Croatia?

12 A. I think that in Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem,

13 there were no such instances.

14 Q. And is it true that by the end of -- until the end of 1991 the

15 army was considered to be the army of the Socialist Federal Republic of

16 Yugoslavia, that it wasn't a Serb army, and that its cadres and staff were

17 not made up of only Serb members? I assume you know that.

18 A. Well, it was mixed -- was it mixed?

19 Q. Do you remember that in April 1992, in the JNA there were still

20 about 600 soldiers who were Croats; although in January 1992, for example,

21 Croatia had already been recognised internationally, by the international

22 community, the famous premature recognition of Croatia came about. Do

23 you remember that piece of information, perhaps?

24 A. I don't remember that, but I do know that there were Croats still

25 in the army.

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1 Q. And do you remember this piece of information relating to the air

2 force; that more than half the fliers were not Serbs or Montenegrins, that

3 they were members of other ethnic groups, in fact?

4 A. I didn't have that piece of information available.

5 Q. Very well. And when the conflict started in Croatia, under the

6 circumstances that you are testifying about, was this situation, generally

7 speaking, in that area a situation of some kind of a civil war?

8 A. I don't know how I would call it, but the war broke out.

9 Q. But I'm asking you, was it a civil war? And let me clarify my

10 question: Did anyone commit aggression?

11 JUDGE MAY: He's just answered the question. He doesn't know.

12 And characterising the war, what type of war, will be a matter for the

13 Trial Chamber. It's not a matter for the witness. Now, let's move on.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, these are historical

15 facts. You can decide whatever you will.

16 JUDGE MAY: No, it's not a historical fact. It's the type of war

17 it was. It's a matter of interpretation and may even be a matter of law,

18 which we'll have to decide. It's not for the witness to say.

19 You can ask him if he saw any Serbs attack Croatia or something of

20 the sort if you wish, if that's your point you want to make. But you

21 can't ask him about characterising matters -- what may be matters of law.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked him whether he saw Croatian

23 paramilitary units attacking Serbs, and he said he did, he had seen them.

24 Serb settlements, and he said yes. Now, if you want me to ask him what

25 you want ...

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. I'm going to ask you, Mr. Milanovic, did the Serbs commit

3 aggression against Croatia?

4 A. I stand by my earlier answer.

5 Q. You can't give me a direct answer? Do you believe that there is

6 any possibility of saying that the Serbs committed aggression against

7 Croatia?

8 A. I have answered the question put to me. Now, this is already

9 politics.

10 Q. Very well. Tell me, is it true that refugees from your areas in

11 particular - and one might say from the whole of Croatia - started moving

12 out in large waves already in October 1991?

13 A. Yes, even before that.

14 Q. What were those refugees fleeing from? Mostly to Serbia; isn't

15 that right?

16 A. Mostly to Serbia; yes, they fled there. And at the beginning of

17 August, active combat operations started in the area and the Yugoslav

18 People's Army joined in, as well as the Serbs, and on the other side were

19 the Croats. Then there were large numbers of refugees on both sides.

20 Q. Very well, Mr. Milanovic. In paragraph 3, you say that your

21 family fled to Serbia; isn't that right, as refugees?

22 A. Yes, correct.

23 Q. So this happened as early as May 1991, didn't it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How many such families started fleeing already in May 1991?

1 Surely it wasn't just your family.

2 A. In your previous question, you said October 1991, and I answered

3 earlier than that. And after the events of the 2nd of May, quite a large

4 number of women and children went to Serbia. And then they would come

5 back and go away again, and so on, but most of them left in August 1991.

6 Q. And is it true that through the JNA you endeavoured to reach a

7 non-aggression agreement with the Croatian side?

8 A. Yes. Everything that I have said in my statement is true.

9 Q. I am unable, like the other side, to ask you whether what is

10 written in your statement is correct. I have to put questions to you. So

11 you endeavoured through the JNA to reach a non-attack agreement with

12 Croatia; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. But in spite of that, these members of the National Guards Corps,

15 of which you don't know when it was formed, attacked you. And in

16 paragraph 3, you mention this. You say, "The National Guards Corps

17 attacked us. We were attacked by the ZNG," et cetera. So in spite of

18 your endeavours to come to an agreement that you wouldn't attack one

19 another, you were attacked nevertheless?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And your village is called Palaca; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Explain to me, please, since you say that a TV crew from ZDF from

24 Germany was filming the consequences of the attack on Palaca from Laslovo,

25 and they showed this on television as if it was the opposite situation, as

1 if you from Palaca had attacked Laslovo; is that right, Mr. Milanovic?

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 Q. So they fraudulently presented that the Serbs had attacked the

4 Croatian side; whereas, the reality was the opposite. Is that right?

5 A. Yes. I've already answered that.

6 Q. Don't say to me, "I've already answered that question." Just

7 tell me, was that a falsification?

8 A. Yes, that's right.

9 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Just a moment, Mr. Milosevic. We

10 waste time. And your comment to the witness was unfair. He had answered

11 the question. He'd said what he could see. Now, whether any inference is

12 to be drawn from that is not a matter for the witness. So again, it's an

13 example of you trying to argue with him all the time and then rebuking him

14 wrongly for not answering the question. He was quite right. You could

15 put -- make your points and then move on.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's move on. I just

17 wanted to establish what the witness has said, that the representation was

18 the opposite, that the Serbian side had attacked the Croats instead of the

19 other way around.

20 JUDGE MAY: We can understand the point. You don't need to

21 repeat it all the time.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not repeating it all the time,

23 Mr. May.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Is it true that in May 1991, Mr. Milanovic, in the area in which

1 you were there were Croatian troops and your village were shelled daily by

2 about 600 projectiles? Is that right?

3 A. Yes, that's right. It started around the 26th of June and

4 onwards.

5 Q. So in view of such a situation, is it true that the Serbs were

6 fleeing from the area because of the pressure and the war operations

7 engaged in by the forces of the opposite side?

8 A. To be quite precise in giving my answer to this question, Palaca

9 was on the very separation line between the Serbs and the Croats, and it

10 was the first place on the route from Zagreb-Osijek to Vukovar. And

11 fighting had started around Vukovar at that time, and as the fighting for

12 Vukovar started in which the Yugoslav People's Army took an active part,

13 so the attacks increased by the Croatian side against the first defence

14 lines towards the west.

15 Q. Wait a moment, please. So this -- this village of yours was

16 mostly Serb, wasn't it?

17 A. Yes, mostly.

18 Q. And the next village towards the west is Laslovo, which has a

19 majority Croatian population?

20 A. No, Hungarian population.

21 Q. I see, Hungarian. So tell me, how was this confrontation line

22 established? Those settlements have been there for hundreds of years or

23 decades, at least; is that right?

24 A. I don't know whether this was any coincidence, but roughly since

25 the events in Borovo Selo, a battalion of the Yugoslav People's Army

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1 pulled out of Osijek and came to Palaca and stayed there until April 1992,

2 and that is how, in my judgement, the line was formed.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We must now adjourn. It's time for the break.

4 We'll adjourn now for 20 minutes.

5 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

6 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. Milanovic, do you remember the end of October, or to be more

10 precise, the 31st of October, 1991, when 15 villages were cleansed of the

11 municipality of Grubisno Polje, 15 Serb villages?

12 A. I do remember that event. Only I have not remembered the exact

13 date, but that is true.

14 Q. And do you remember the 13th of December, when more than 100

15 settlements in the municipalities of Slatina, Daruvar, Slavonska Pozega,

16 were also cleansed? This is something that you should be aware of.

17 A. I am aware of those events in Western Slavonia, but I wasn't

18 there, and I heard about them and I don't know the exact number.

19 Q. And are you familiar with data on destroyed Serbian churches or

20 the events around Pakrac, Pakracka Poljana, the mass execution of Serbs in

21 Marino Selo and Pakracka Poljana? Do you know about that?

22 A. From the media, yes.

23 Q. What were you at the time when this was happening? What was the

24 position that you held?

25 A. If this was before the 19th of December, then I was assistant

1 minister for transport. If it was after the 19th of December, 1991, I was

2 Assistant for Defence.

3 Q. And you were only informed from the media even though you were an

4 assistant minister?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Tell me, did you hear of the Operation Flash and how many Serbs

7 were killed on that occasion?

8 A. I heard of the Operation Flash, and I do know that Serbs were

9 killed, but I don't know exactly how many.

10 Q. And did you hear of the killing of women and children on that

11 occasion as well?

12 A. Yes, I did hear about it.

13 Q. And tell me, do you have any knowledge of the number of people -

14 and I mean Serbs - how many thousands of them were deported from those

15 areas on that occasion?

16 A. They say between 150.000 and 200.000. Now, what the exact figure

17 is, I don't know.

18 Q. Do you have any direct knowledge as to the number of camps for

19 Serbs in Croatia during the war?

20 A. I do know that there were camps, but I don't know how many.

21 Q. Do you have any idea how many Serbs were held in those camps?

22 A. I don't have any idea, but I do know that there were Serbs held

23 there.

24 Q. Very well. Since you mentioned Plitvice in paragraph 5 of your

25 statement, what happened at Plitvice and when?

1 A. As far as I can recollect, this was in August 1990, when a Serb

2 delegation was going to a meeting. Whether it was in Knin or Lika, I

3 don't know exactly. And they were arrested there, a couple of Serbs,

4 headed by Goran Hadzic.

5 Q. And those Serbs who were arrested on that occasion, had they

6 committed any kind of violence or anything like that due to which they

7 needed to be arrested?

8 A. As far as I know, they did not commit any act of violence which

9 would warrant their arrest.

10 Q. And why were they arrested, then?

11 A. I can only assume that Croatia knew that Goran Hadzic and this

12 group that was arrested were politically active in the area of Slavonia

13 and Krajina, and that is why they arrested them.

14 Q. Were they members of the Serbian Democratic Party at the time?

15 A. I think they were at the time.

16 Q. Was the Serbian Democratic Party registered in a regular fashion

17 with the Croatian authorities as a political party?

18 A. I think that it wasn't registered in the territory -- territory

19 of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, but I am sure that it was

20 registered in Knin. And it was acting as a party, and it participated in

21 the multi-party elections in Knin, Donji Lapac, and other places. Yes, in

22 those places but not in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

23 Q. Plitvice was in the area where it was registered; isn't that

24 right?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Ask do you remember raids on the 2nd of March, 1991, when 600

2 members of the special MUP forces raided Serb houses, searched them, and

3 mistreated their inhabitants?

4 A. This did not happen in Slavonia. I don't know whether it

5 occurred in the lower part of Krajina. I'm not familiar with it.

6 Q. So you do not know about any event that did not take place in

7 your area; is that right?

8 A. Some of them, yes, as of the 19th of December, 1991.

9 Q. And do you know that in the environs of Pokrovac [as interpreted]

10 the Croatian forces opened fire on military columns without any reason,

11 when even the city hospital was hit? Do you remember those events? This

12 was in Pakrac.

13 A. I don't remember that particular event, but I know that JNA

14 columns were attacked.

15 Q. Now, when that conflict occurred in Plitvice, between members of

16 the National Guards Corps and the local Serbs, was the role of the JNA

17 merely to separate them?

18 A. I don't know whether the JNA was involved in Plitvice in 1990.

19 I'm not sure about that.

20 Q. Very well. And tell me, the events in Plitvice, were they the

21 cause for the formation of the Serbian National Council?

22 A. I'm not quite sure, but that could be so.

23 Q. And when was the Serbian National Council formed? Was it after

24 Plitvice?

25 A. I can't remember the exact date. I wasn't a member of the

1 Serbian National Council at the time. But it was roughly in that period

2 of 1990.

3 Q. In paragraph 5, you say, "After the events in Plitvice in August

4 1990 ..." and then you mention the names, the Serbian National Council was

5 formed and Goran Hadzic was the president. You say for yourself that you

6 were elected in September or somewhat earlier. I think it was at Milenko

7 Zivkovic's suggestion.

8 A. Yes, the first part was in 1990, and the second part that you

9 mentioned was in 1991.

10 Q. Since you mention events in Vukovar, tell me, please, is it true

11 that before the JNA intervened, the barracks in Vukovar was blocked by the

12 National Guards Corps and cut off so that soldiers and officers for 20

13 days went without electricity, water, and supplies?

14 A. It is true. With the beginning of the conflict in the territory

15 of the town of Vukovar and its surroundings, the barracks found itself

16 under siege.

17 Q. And is it true that apart from being blocked for 20 days, it was

18 also attacked with various shells and already on the 14th of September,

19 1991, among JNA members there were casualties, dead and wounded?

20 A. As far as I can remember, I know that there were conflicts. Now,

21 the exact number of dead and wounded, I don't know.

22 Q. But you do know that there were dead and wounded.

23 A. Yes. I say that I do know that there were dead and wounded, but

24 I don't know how many.

25 Q. Was this already in September?

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1 A. August, end of August, September, sometime around then.

2 Q. And do you remember that General Kadijevic tasked Admiral Brovet,

3 who was his deputy, to inform the European Troika and Lord Carrington

4 about this, who was at the time the chairman of the Conference on

5 Yugoslavia?

6 A. Yes, I do remember. And I think that Admiral Brovet did come to

7 the area and engaged in negotiations between the JNA, the Serbs, and the

8 Croats, with some other members of the Presidency of Yugoslavia.

9 Q. And how much time elapsed after those incidents, that is, the

10 blocking of the barracks, the casualties in the barracks; how much after

11 that did the JNA intervene to deblock the barracks in relation to Vukovar?

12 A. As far as I can remember, the JNA participated in lifting the

13 blockade of the barracks and in liberating Vukovar from the end of August

14 1991 until the 18th of November, 1991, when the town of Vukovar actually

15 fell.

16 Q. And is it true that in Vukovar there was no preconceived plan on

17 the part of the Serbs and the JNA, that the JNA forces in Vukovar sought

18 to deblock the barracks, that they were constantly fired at and the JNA

19 soldiers only responded to that fire?

20 A. I think that was so at the beginning, but later on the decision

21 was taken to attack the town of Vukovar itself and liberate it from the

22 Croatian forces.

23 Q. All right. Now, as you've mentioned Ovcara, tell me what you

24 knew about the events at Ovcara.

25 A. At that time, when Ovcara took place, I knew nothing about it.

1 Several months later, however, upon the insistence of the international

2 community and mostly at that time Mrs. Albright -- and she was the United

3 States ambassador to the United Nations at the time, and she came to the

4 area and asked around, whether there was anything there. So at that time,

5 it was difficult to learn anything. And after talking to me sometime at

6 the beginning of 1991, when she returned to the United Nations she asked

7 that UN forces be sent there, and they were deployed and the forces were

8 there until 1997 or 1998, when there was the digging up at Ovcara and the

9 discovery of the bodies there.

10 Q. All right. And is it true that you had no information about the

11 events linked to Ovcara at the time?

12 A. Yes, that is correct.

13 Q. Is it already -- also correct that you tried to learn about those

14 events and to do so you talked to a large number of people? Is that

15 right?

16 A. Yes, it is.

17 Q. And the answers you were given from the locals of Vukovar is that

18 there was nothing there.

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. So at that time, you didn't know anything about that either, did

21 you?

22 A. At that time, I knew nothing, because the town of Vukovar was cut

23 off from the area I was in - let's call it the Erdut area - until Vukovar

24 was liberated. And that took place during the liberation of Vukovar and

25 it was skilfully concealed.

1 Q. Well, let's make a slight digression here. You were the main

2 source of information that you gave to Radovan Stojicic, is that right,

3 about the events in those parts?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. And since you knew nothing about Ovcara, I assume that Radovan

6 Stojicic could not have known anything either. Is that right?

7 A. At that time, while he was in the region, I don't think he knew

8 anything about Ovcara, no.

9 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now, you, in fact, when Albright asked

10 you to have the UN forces sent there in order to secure the area, you told

11 her that you had nothing against that. You gave your permission, and then

12 the UN soldiers took up their positions in the locality. Is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And the political position taken by the leadership was to allow

15 the UN to control the area, including the Ovcara area.

16 A. According to the Vance Owen Plan, yes, that would be it.

17 Q. Is it also true that according to what you knew about Ovcara,

18 that the JNA or the MUP of Serbia had nothing to do with it, or anybody

19 else under the command or control of the JNA or MUP of Serbia or generally

20 the leadership in Serbia?

21 A. I said that Radovan Stojicic had nothing to do with it. I didn't

22 say the JNA. The JNA in that particular area was stationed there. There

23 was an army brigade there and the entire region or area, if we call it

24 Srem, that is, the south of Vukovar, was under the control of the Yugoslav

25 People's Army. And that was its area.

1 Q. Did you ever learn that any of the members of the JNA were at

2 Ovcara when all this happened?

3 A. I don't even know to this day what actually happened at Ovcara,

4 who committed what took place there, and especially then. I had no idea

5 then at all.

6 Q. All right. Now, what can you tell us about Lovas? According to

7 what you learnt, as far as I am able to conclude, the JNA had nothing to

8 do -- or any individual could have been under the control of the JNA or

9 linked to Serbia at all in any way with respect to anybody from Serbia.

10 A. Well, the same is true for Lovas as is true for Ovcara. A state

11 of war had been proclaimed, war law was prevalent, and all the civilians

12 and everybody bearing arms, whether the TO or the reservists or whoever,

13 volunteers, they were under the command of the JNA.

14 Q. But you set up your own Territorial Defence at the time, did you

15 not, in Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, in fact?

16 A. Yes, we did. But it was always subordinated to the Yugoslav

17 People's Army and acted under the command of the JNA, from August until

18 the end of the war operations.

19 Q. And what do you consider to be the end of the war operations?

20 A. To my mind, the end of the war operations was the end of November

21 1991, in the area of Slavonia. Now, of course, there were certain places

22 where active operations ended earlier on and others where it went on

23 later.

24 Q. All right, Mr. Milanovic. Can we take it that you're not

25 challenging the fact that after November 1991 there were no operations in

1 the area? Right up until the signing of the Erdut agreement. So to all

2 intents and purposes, there was no war in the area.

3 A. There wasn't a war, but there was sporadic -- there were sporadic

4 operations.

5 Q. What kind of sporadic operations?

6 A. Well, for example, the Croatian army would sometimes fire a shell

7 at our side, and we would retaliate. So sporadic gunfire. It will never

8 be quite clear who did what first, but it was between the two sides.

9 And then, for example, there was some small mortar attacks on the

10 Miljevac plateau, the Maslenicki bridge, Western Slavonia, et cetera.

11 Q. Well, yes. That isn't your particular area, and we'll come to

12 that later on. But can we take it, can we note that once the areas under

13 UN protection were established and the UN protection zone was in fact

14 established, which covered Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem,

15 once the UNPAs were set up, there were no attacks from the Serb side on

16 any territory outside the zone, nor were there any attacks within the zone

17 either?

18 A. I don't think we understood each other with respect to the

19 previous question. When these events were taking place, then there was

20 some mortar fire and mortar shelling, but to a small extent, nothing

21 intense that -- to follow on to your previous question.

22 Q. All right. Now, once the JNA, pursuant to the agreement, had

23 left the territory of Croatia, the Serb side or, rather, the Serb army of

24 Krajina or the Territorial Defence or the police force, did they ever

25 launch any kind of attack on territory under Croatian control?

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1 A. No, never. It never launched any kind of attack.

2 Q. Judging by what you say in your statement, from Palaca, those of

3 you who were in Palaca had been given 50 rifles from Bobota, ammunition as

4 well, but you don't know how those weapons came to be in Bobota, do you?

5 A. I don't know exactly, no, how it came to be in Bobota.

6 Q. And when was the new Territorial Defence formed of Slavonia,

7 Baranja, and Western Srem? When was that formed?

8 A. The new Territorial Defence of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western

9 Srem was formed between the 2nd of May and August. It was first of all

10 active in different areas and wasn't linked up.

11 Q. All right. So it was established after the events in Borovo Selo

12 in the local communities, which means in the villages in actual fact; is

13 that right?

14 A. Yes, villages and Beli Manastir, those places.

15 Q. And as I can see from your statement, of the old structures, the

16 Territorial Defence was just taken over from the old organisation in Beli

17 Manastir. But that was placed under the Territorial Defence of Slavonia,

18 Baranja, and Western Srem as well; isn't that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Very well. All right. Now, as the Territorial Defence in

21 Croatia was a national selective body, is it true that that was the reason

22 for which the Serbs organised themselves on the principle of the local

23 staffs and commands in the area, defence?

24 A. Yes, that's what the word means.

25 Q. But in the Territorial Defence of that area, there were other

1 ethnic groups too, not only Serbs, who also wished to defend the area.

2 A. Yes, especially in Baranja.

3 Q. At that time, this Territorial Defence was not under JNA control,

4 the one that was established in the villages and the other localities more

5 or less spontaneously; isn't that right?

6 A. I've already said up until August it was not, but after August it

7 did come under the command of the JNA.

8 Q. All right. Now, is it true that that Territorial Defence, once

9 it had been established, was in fact a form of popular protection? And

10 according to my sources of information, it was not even on good terms with

11 the JNA. Isn't that right?

12 A. At all events, it was established as a form of protection or

13 defence. "Territorial Defence" is the term used, and it means what it

14 says. Now -- well, it was on good terms with the JNA. The JNA did not

15 launch any operations in the area without the TO taking part, or vice

16 versa, that the TO went into any action which was not under the command of

17 the JNA.

18 Q. And what about the various formations that certain parties set up

19 themselves? What about those?

20 A. All those formations set up by the parties - and I mean parties

21 from the Republic of Serbia, the Radicals, I think, the Radical Party -

22 were under the command of the TO and the JNA.

23 Q. Do you mean to say that the party formations became included into

24 the JNA structure generally speaking?

25 A. Whoever bore arms or wore a uniform on the territory of Slavonia,

1 Baranja, and Srem was under the command of the JNA, and for several months

2 you couldn't move from one place to another unless you received permission

3 from the JNA to move around the area.

4 Q. Well, was that done in a general effort to avoid conflict, or was

5 the intention otherwise?

6 A. Well, it was done pursuant to orders because there was a war on

7 and the danger of war, actually.

8 Q. The danger of war. But we have just observed and noted that

9 after November 1991 there was -- there were no war operations in the area.

10 Is that right?

11 A. Yes. I'm saying -- I'm talking about the period from August to

12 the end of November.

13 Q. All right. You were appointed traffic and communications

14 minister at the proposal of Milenko Zivkovic. Couldn't you tell us who

15 Milenko Zivkovic is?

16 A. Milenko Zivkovic was at the time a member of the National Serb

17 Council, and he was born in the area, and I think that he was the only one

18 that I did know out of all the names I listed. Before the war, that is.

19 Q. All right. And the Defence Ministry, at the proposal of Radlovic

20 Predrag; is that right?

21 A. That's right.

22 Q. So in both instances it was organised internally in Eastern

23 Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem. Your appointment and nomination,

24 nobody influenced that from Serbia, did they?

25 A. That's right.

1 Q. Tell me now, please: You say that on the 28th of November, 1991,

2 you say that in paragraph 10, in actual fact - and you have the statement

3 before you, I believe, your notes - you say that in Erdut, on the 28th of

4 November, 1991, all the operations had been completed. Isn't that right?

5 There were no war conflicts after that.

6 A. Well, I'm not 100 per cent certain whether it was actually the

7 28th of November or perhaps the 10th of December, but anyway, I'm 99 per

8 cent correct that it was the 28th of November.

9 Q. All right. But that was a time when there were no more war

10 conflicts going on; isn't that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And then you say that in addition to the ministers in the

13 government of SAO Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, the meeting was

14 attended by Radovan Stojicic; is that right?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 Q. Now, tell me this, please: As you mention the presence of

17 Radovan Stojicic, who else, to the best of your recollections, from the

18 MUP of Serbia attended the meeting with him? Somebody who worked in the

19 Ministry of the Interior of Serbia, for example?

20 A. When Radovan Stojicic, Badza, came to the Slavonia area and

21 became commander of the Territorial Defence, with him came -- well, I

22 can't remember exactly, but about some 15 members of his unit. They came

23 with him.

24 Q. Very well. And do you know that Radovan Stojicic, as a patriot

25 and volunteer, came there to help you? He didn't come there with any unit

1 of the MUP of Serbia.

2 A. Radovan Stojicic, Badza, came to the area as a patriot, but I'm

3 not sure that he came as a volunteer or perhaps following somebody's

4 instructions.

5 Q. So you don't know that.

6 A. No, I don't.

7 Q. Wouldn't it be logical, if he came in any other capacity, for him

8 to have a unit with him? In your statement, you mentioned --

9 JUDGE MAY: You can't ask him that. You can't ask him what's

10 logical. What you can ask the witness is whether when Badza came he came

11 with a unit or did he come by himself.

12 Could you help us with that, Mr. Milanovic?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When Radovan Stojicic, Badza, came

14 on the 21st, I think it was, September, I heard the story that he had come

15 because the army was not managing to free Vukovar and that he wanted to

16 assist in the control and command of the Territorial Defence and its

17 cooperation with the Yugoslav People's Army, and he came with some 15 men

18 and his unit. I think the unit at the time did not -- I mean, in

19 Belgrade, the SAJ, didn't number more than 20 or 25 men on the outside.

20 JUDGE MAY: And who did you hear that from that, he had come with

21 15 men in order to free Vukovar?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw him come with my own eyes,

23 and at a meeting of the government of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem

24 it was stated that a man would come from the MUP of Serbia to be the

25 commander of the TO and to link up all the forces in the area to liberate

1 Vukovar.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. And tell me, who did you personally see, apart from what you

5 heard, that he had come with some 15 men? Did you see those 15 men?

6 A. I did see all 15 or so of them.

7 Q. Are you claiming that those 15 men constituted a unit of some

8 sort?

9 A. According to the story about a special anti-terrorist unit which

10 numbered in Serbia 20 to 25 men, and if he comes with 15, then for me that

11 is a unit.

12 Q. Let us leave that aside for the moment, what is a unit for you.

13 I don't know how many men that unit numbered, but the fact that Badza had

14 come as a volunteer to Slavonia, on what grounds do you believe that he

15 came --

16 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Just a moment. You're putting that

17 he's a volunteer. The witness isn't accepting that he was a volunteer.

18 Do you know -- do you know if he was a volunteer or not? I think

19 you've already dealt with that, haven't you, Mr. Milanovic?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try once again to explain

21 this. Radovan Stojicic, Badza, as I said, the reason for his coming was

22 to liberate Vukovar. I mentioned the number of men. And this is rather a

23 large number for a special unit. And he came with weapons and equipment

24 and not for a moment was it my understanding that they were there on a

25 voluntary basis, especially in view of several examples, as you requested.

1 For example, the equipment and weapons and uniforms, the system

2 of communications, their salaries, they received them in Serbia, and upon

3 the completion of the assignment all of them, or at least the commanding

4 staff, were promoted. For example, Badza came as a commander of a special

5 unit of the MUP of Serbia, and while he was still with me, just prior to

6 his return, he was appointed assistant minister of internal affairs. So

7 it's not logical for somebody to volunteer to a combat area and then to be

8 promoted. So this is one example. I could think of others.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Please be kind enough and explain to me what was the role of

11 Radovan Stojicic in those operations. Do you have information that

12 Radovan Stojicic or any of his associates committed any kind of crime over

13 there?

14 A. No. That unit from the MUP of Serbia that was in the area never

15 committed any crimes; of that, I am certain. But its role was

16 significant. I remember exactly when they arrived on the 21st of

17 September, and the halting of an operation on Vukovar for some 15 days or

18 a month until a system of control and command was established, together

19 with General Bratic [phoen], and later when he was killed on the 4th of

20 November, then with his successor they met on a daily basis and they drew

21 up a plan and led the operation for the liberation of Vukovar, which

22 started on the 4th of November and ended on the 18th.

23 Q. So that means within the framework of the JNA.

24 A. In my statement, I said that the JNA dominated the area until

25 Badza arrived. After Badza's arrival, the JNA gained in significance, and

1 it was treated as a real TO, so that in every operation it was

2 subordinated to the JNA, especially as the TO didn't have weapons and no

3 mortars, cannon, or heavy weapons or self-propelled launchers or any other

4 equipment. This was all in the possession of the JNA. And when Badza

5 arrived, the TO gained in significance, and all operations were

6 coordinated by the Yugoslav People's Army and the TO implemented them.

7 Q. And is it true that it was only in October 1991 that you

8 considered yourself to be under the MUP and that was when Badza came there

9 and you considered this to be a link with the MUP of Serbia? Is that

10 right?

11 A. Quite so. That is what was stated at a meeting of the government

12 of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, that a man was coming from the MUP

13 of Serbia who would take over the command of the TO and as soon as he

14 arrived Goran Hadzic appointed him commander of the TO, a couple of days

15 later.

16 Q. So Goran Hadzic appointed him.

17 A. Yes, he did.

18 Q. So no one from Serbia appointed him, did they?

19 A. I think someone sent him from Serbia and Goran Hadzic just

20 confirmed this in paper.

21 Q. So this appointment carried out by Goran Hadzic, who was then

22 what? The president of the area, wasn't he?

23 A. He was the Prime Minister of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

24 Q. Isn't that proof that Badza, who had come as a volunteer and

25 places himself at the disposal --

1 JUDGE MAY: No. You must not put questions in that way. You've

2 heard quite well what the witness has said about his being a volunteer.

3 There's no point putting questions in a tendentious way which

4 misrepresents what the witness has said. Now, move on to the next

5 question.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. We have established that he was appointed by a decision of the

9 Prime Minister of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, that is, Goran

10 Hadzic.

11 JUDGE MAY: We've been through this. Let's move on to something

12 else.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. And do you know that there were several members of the MUP of

15 Serbia who temporarily suspended their positions in the MUP of Serbia and

16 went as volunteers to assist you in defending yourself? Are you aware of

17 that fact?

18 A. There were men from the MUP of Serbia, but I'm not familiar with

19 their status regarding their employment.

20 Q. Are you aware of a similar situation in the JNA, that is, that

21 officers born in Bosnia, Croatia could go, and always voluntarily, to

22 assist the army of Republika Srpska or the army of the Serbian Krajina,

23 that is, to join the ranks of the fighters there? Because these were

24 areas in which they were born, to which they belonged, and which they felt

25 needed to be defended. So a similar situation existed with respect to

1 many JNA members who then became members of the army of Republika Srpska

2 of the Serbian army of Krajina; isn't that right?

3 A. There were cases of people going voluntarily, but there were also

4 cases of people going upon orders of the General Staff of the army of

5 Yugoslavia to those areas.

6 Q. Do you know, as deputy defence minister, that such an order could

7 only apply with respect to their emolument, social and material status,

8 but not with respect to questions of control and command?

9 A. I'm not sure what your question was.

10 Q. Let me rephrase the question. Is it true that the army of

11 Yugoslavia, or as you put it, the General Staff of the army of Yugoslavia,

12 did it have command over the army of the Republic of Srpska Krajina or the

13 VRS?

14 A. I cannot give a precise answer to that question, but I do know

15 that the Serbian army of Krajina was dependent upon the JNA.

16 Q. You mean it received aid from them?

17 A. Depended on them.

18 Q. And who was your commander? You were assistant defence minister.

19 Was there a Main Staff of the Serbian army of Krajina? Was there a

20 Supreme Commander who was also the president of the Republic of Serbian

21 Krajina? Isn't that right?

22 A. There was the Main Staff of the army of the Republic of Serbian

23 Krajina, and it was in command in the area of Krajina; sometimes not even

24 there. But it was in command in the area, but I think that the commanders

25 of the Serbian army of Krajina depended on the General Staff of the JNA.

1 Q. In the chain of command, did the general staff of the JNA command

2 any operations in the territory of the Republic of Serbian Krajina?

3 A. I have no such information.

4 Q. So let's finish with that.

5 Tell me, please, with respect to the structure of all those

6 members of the Serbian army of Krajina, including civilians who took up

7 arms to defend their homes and who formed the Serbian army of Krajina,

8 where were those people from?

9 A. With respect to the territory of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western

10 Srem, I can say that at the very beginning the TO was mostly composed of

11 the local population. Then in a certain period of time some volunteers

12 arrived who were either under the command of the TO or directly under the

13 JNA, and the number was between 10 and 25 thousand.

14 Q. Of what?

15 A. Soldiers.

16 Q. From Krajina?

17 A. From the region of Srem and Baranja.

18 Q. And how many out of those 25.000 soldiers of the Srem and Baranja

19 region were volunteers from Serbia?

20 A. It is difficult to say. You interrupted me. From August 1991

21 until November and December 1991, there were about 36.000 - about 36.000 -

22 members of the army of Yugoslavia --

23 Q. That is the JNA in 1991, not the VJ?

24 A. Yes, that's correct, the JNA. There were about 36.000 men. And

25 it is hard to say how many volunteers there were, as there were volunteers

1 both within the TO and within the JNA.

2 Q. I'm asking you about the Serbian army of Krajina, when that army

3 was formed. In the area of Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem,

4 how many men did that army have when it -- the army was formed?

5 A. You mean the TO or the Serbian army of Krajina?

6 Q. I'm very precise. I said the Serbian army of Krajina.

7 A. The Serbian army of Krajina, I think, was officially formed for

8 the first time in 1994, the Serbian army of Krajina.

9 Q. But in the meantime, it was called the TO of Krajina; is that

10 right?

11 Now, tell me, when the JNA withdrew from the territory of Croatia

12 as a whole, that is, in 1992, what was the numerical strength of the TO in

13 Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem?

14 A. In April/May 1992, the JNA withdrew and the Vance Owen Plan came

15 into effect.

16 JUDGE MAY: Let us try and deal with this. Fist of all -- just a

17 moment. So let us just clarify it.

18 Before we -- before the Serb army of Krajina was formed, the

19 accused has put that the body was called the TO of Krajina. Is that

20 correct?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct. But it was acting in the

22 following way: Up until the 26th of February, 1992, the TO operated in

23 three areas; in the Knin area, in Western Slavonia, and Eastern Slavonia,

24 Baranja, and Western Srem. And when those three areas joined up, it was

25 only then for the first time that the TO of the Republic of Serbian

1 Krajina was established.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. And what was the numerical strength of that TO of the Republic of

4 Serbian Krajina?

5 A. I can't say exactly. But I can be precise with respect to

6 Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

7 Q. Well, please do so, for that region.

8 A. There were several stages. When the JNA withdrew, the Vance Owen

9 Plan came into effect, and the double-key system. The TO was disbanded,

10 and the Blue Brigades of the police guarded the border towards Croatia

11 pursuant to the Vance Owen Plan. However, since the Croats violated the

12 Vance Owen Plan, they attacked -- I can't remember whether it was the

13 Miljevacka plateau or the Medak pocket, I can't remember exactly, but

14 because of that the double-key system fell through, the TO was

15 reactivated, and from then on it was the TO until 1994 and then the

16 Serbian army of Krajina until Krajina fell. However, in the area of

17 Slavonia, during the state of emergency, the state of war, the TO numbered

18 some 20-odd thousand. And in a regular situation it numbered between 5

19 and 7 thousand.

20 Q. Very well. Now, we are talking about the emergency wartime

21 situation, when the TO numbered some 20.000 men in Slavonia, Baranja, and

22 Western Srem, how many volunteers were there from Serbia?

23 A. It's difficult for me to be precise, but between 3 and 4

24 thousand, I think. I don't think I'd be wrong if I would put it at that

25 figure.

1 Q. Those who came to join the ranks of the Territorial Defence of

2 Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. All right. Now, tell me this, please: Once this Territorial

5 Defence had been established, of Krajina, and the command structure put in

6 place, was there a single defence minister or minister of the police or

7 commander of the Main Staff of the Serb army of Krajina or Territorial

8 Defence who was somebody born outside Krajina?

9 A. I think that all of them were born either -- or they originated,

10 their roots were from Krajina.

11 Q. And where do you get the piece of information, as you put it,

12 that there were 3.000 volunteers from Serbia? Do you have any records of

13 that, that there were so many, such a large number of volunteers? Because

14 that would make it 10 per cent, 10 per cent of your forces made up of

15 volunteers from Serbia. Where do you get that figure from? You must have

16 had some records.

17 A. Well, that is based on a free -- a good but free assessment.

18 Q. All right. But can you give me any reason on the basis of which

19 you made that free assessment of yours? What were the grounds?

20 A. Well, I do have reason to say that. As the ministry dealt with

21 supplies for the army - this especially referred to uniforms, boots, that

22 kind of thing, if I can put it that way - and then I know that those

23 people would usually be given priority, because they were guests in the

24 area.

25 Q. All right. If you dealt with their supplies and logistics,

1 uniforms, et cetera, then you must have some document where this is

2 evidenced, which records how much equipment you issued to those guests in

3 the area, uniform, boots, et cetera, which would bear out what you're

4 saying.

5 A. Well, we didn't keep records for us to say two or three units and

6 then have special records for them, but they were deployed in the brigades

7 and battalions. So we didn't have any separate records kept for that.

8 That wasn't customary.

9 Q. So that means you don't have any records.

10 A. I don't think anybody has any records of that kind.

11 JUDGE MAY: Before we go any further, Mr. Milosevic, there's just

12 a matter I want to clarify.

13 What dates are we talking about, Mr. Milanovic? You said that

14 during the emergency, about 3.000 to 4.000 volunteers from Serbia joined

15 the TO in the region. What sort of dates are we talking about? Is this

16 1991 or earlier or later?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The period -- well, I was referring

18 to, and I hope Mr. Milosevic was referring to that too, because that's

19 when volunteers were necessary -- August 1991 to November/December 1991.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Now, if you say -- if you've given us that time frame, from

22 August to December 1991, were those then members of the JNA?

23 A. No. Members of the JNA were a different category with their

24 reserve units and Territorial Defence. That was different. And they were

25 equipped in Serbia and would arrive --

1 Q. The JNA was equipped in Yugoslavia, because it was the Yugoslav

2 People's Army; right?

3 A. Yes, right.

4 Q. But these volunteers, weren't they -- the ones you're talking

5 about, weren't they members of the JNA?

6 A. I've already answered that. Those members, those 3.000 to 4.000

7 men, were with the Territorial Defence of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western

8 Srem. That's one thing, one lot. The other lot are reservists and

9 volunteers who came from the Yugoslav People's Army and there were 36.000

10 of them approximately in the area.

11 Q. You mean JNA troops?

12 A. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. On the territory of Yugoslavia?

14 A. Not on the territory of Yugoslavia. On the territory of

15 Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

16 Q. Well, wasn't that Yugoslav territory in 1991?

17 A. Well, yes. But we didn't use that term up till now. We always

18 referred to the forces of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

19 Q. Yes. But in 1991, de facto and de jure, that was the territory

20 of Yugoslavia

21 A. Yes, up until the recognition of Croatia.

22 Q. And that took place in 1992; right?

23 A. Yes, right.

24 Q. And after the recognition of Croatia, there were no war

25 operations on that territory, were there?

1 A. Some sporadic return fire, but I don't think it could be termed

2 "war operations."

3 Q. All right. So the answer is no, there were no war operations in

4 that territory then. Is that right?

5 A. I said there were none.

6 Q. Very well. You say in paragraph 21 that you don't know the

7 reasons for which Radovan Stojicic, Badza, went from Slavonia to Belgrade.

8 A. I remember that he did travel to Belgrade, yes.

9 Q. But you don't know the reasons. Well, don't you know that he

10 lived in Belgrade, resided in Belgrade, he had a family in Belgrade?

11 A. I do know that. I would sometimes accompany him. Sometimes he

12 would go to see his children, and at others he would go to attend working

13 meetings.

14 Q. Well, you had a personal friendly relationship with him, didn't

15 you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So because of this friendly, personal relationship, the

18 conviction prevailed that you were some sort of link and connection

19 between the MUP of Serbia and Slavonia; isn't that right? And you

20 actually say that in paragraph 23.

21 A. Once Badza had left the area.

22 Q. Yes. And were you a link between the MUP of Serbia and Slavonia,

23 or due to circumstances was that ascribed because of your friendship with

24 him, ascribed to you because of your friendship with him?

25 A. Well, I'd say both.

1 Q. And then you go on to explain that your contacts with Radovan

2 Stojicic continued to be friendly and on a personal footing when he went

3 to take up his new position. You would often go to see him in Belgrade,

4 you say. And you also say that you informed him about the situation in

5 the Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem district. So he didn't have any

6 sources about the situation but relied on you to inform him; is that it?

7 A. Well, he learnt about it from me, but firstly he was a policeman

8 and they use a number of sources for their information.

9 Q. So your personal relationship, that is, between you and him, was

10 not the relationship of a MUP and the Republic of Srpska Krajina or

11 Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem. You had personal ties, a personal

12 relationship, the two of you; isn't that right?

13 A. Well, I've already answered a similar question.

14 Q. All right. Fine. Now, you say that in the course of 1991 in

15 Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, that there was a unit of the MUP of

16 Serbia. And that is in paragraph 28 of your statement. And you say that

17 it numbered approximately 100 men. Is it true that -- and in command of

18 the unit, as you say, was Veljko Bogunovic. I can see that from these

19 statements of yours. Is it true that this man Bogunovic and his unit was

20 exclusively composed of policemen from the Republic of Croatia?

21 A. It was entirely made up of policemen from the Republic of Croatia

22 who had been dismissed in the Republic of Croatia or had tendered their

23 resignation, didn't want to work under the circumstances.

24 Q. All right. All right. Fine.

25 A. Just a minute, please. I haven't completed my answer. And they

1 were all given work as -- in the MUP of Serbia and as members of the MUP

2 of Serbia. They came to Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

3 Q. Where did you get this other piece of information from, policemen

4 who were dismissed set up a unit which in the territory of the republic

5 they had been worked up until then suddenly became employees of the MUP of

6 Serbia? Where do you get that information from?

7 A. Well, this is no idea of mine. It's an exact piece of

8 information, because 99 per cent of those people still work in the MUP of

9 Serbia today.

10 Q. All right. Where professional policemen found professional

11 employ and where they're working today has nothing to do with the fact

12 that they were policemen working in Croatia; is that right? This man

13 Bogunovic, was he from Croatia as well?

14 A. Well, you can check that out on the basis of his work booklets,

15 employee booklets.

16 Q. Is that man Bogunovic from Croatia?

17 A. They're all from Croatia.

18 Q. All right. I see, all from Croatia. Right. Now, is it true

19 that they were under the command of the Territorial Defence of Slavonia,

20 Baranja, and Western Srem and not under the command of Belgrade?

21 A. When they were in the territory, they were under the command of

22 the commander of the TO.

23 Q. All right. Fine. Now, is it true that the police of Serbia - so

24 this whole sector of public security - was never in the territory? It was

25 only after Operation Storm and the chaos that ensued after it that there

1 was one unit which helped have law and order prevail and sort of -- to

2 border security. And there were no operations then either; isn't that

3 right?

4 A. A specialist anti-terrorist unit does come under the sector of

5 public security.

6 Q. It wasn't a special anti-terrorist unit which was deployed in the

7 area, was it?

8 A. I've already answered that question, that its commander was there

9 and more than half the members of the unit.

10 Q. You said that there was Badza, that you don't know in what

11 capacity he was there, and you said that he was accompanied by about 15

12 people.

13 A. Yes, approximately 15.

14 Q. All right, 15. So Badza with 15 men launched an aggression

15 against Croatia; is that what you're claiming?

16 A. That's not what I said.

17 JUDGE MAY: No. You're misrepresenting the evidence again, and

18 we have already been over this particular issue to a great deal of length.

19 So let's move on to something else.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Please, you mentioned that there was a unit of the MUP of Serbia

22 under the command of Obrad Stevanovic. Could you explain that to me,

23 please.

24 A. After the fall of Western Slavonia and the lower part of Krajina,

25 sometime in August this unit arrived and it was deployed in the area right

1 up until April 1996, which was when it withdrew. And it was exclusively

2 there to ensure that law and order prevailed, to keep the peace. There

3 were no war operations, but there was an immediate threat of war that was

4 possible.

5 Q. Now, did that unit defend the frontier, the border, and help

6 ensure that law and order prevailed after the chaos following Operation

7 Storm? Is that what it was doing? Is that right?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. So did that unit have any combat operations vis-a-vis anybody at

10 the time there?

11 A. No.

12 Q. So, in fact, that unit was there to assist the authorities in the

13 area, to help them see that law and order prevailed, and to help them in

14 matters of traffic control and fighting crime as well. Is that what it

15 was doing there?

16 A. In my assessment, that view -- that unit had the greatest role to

17 play by supplying moral support to the people in Slavonia, Baranja, and

18 Western Srem.

19 Q. All right. Let's not pursue the point about this unit, because

20 you yourself say there was no -- no combat operations.

21 But tell me this now, please: You mentioned the demilitarisation

22 plan and the transformation of the 11th Corps. Now, tell me, is it true

23 that the plan for the demilitarisation and transformation of the 11th

24 Corps was compiled in 1995?

25 A. Yes. The corps was set up sometime in 1993 and 1994 whereas the

1 plan for demilitarisation of the 11th Corps was completed immediately

2 after the signing of the Erdut Agreement, in the spirit of the agreement's

3 implementation.

4 Q. Very well. You have provided here a text of the Erdut Agreement

5 but only in English.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes. It's tab 27 of Exhibit 549, for the record.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Then we can see that it was signed by you and Hrvoje Sarinic, and

9 that the others, Galbraith and Stoltenberg, were participants in the peace

10 process. Did this agreement ensure the halting of violence and the exodus

11 of Serbs from Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem?

12 A. The agreement guaranteed a peaceful solution, a peaceful

13 settlement.

14 Q. I draw your attention to point 12. There were two years of a

15 transitional period during which when everything settles down people could

16 decide how they would organise their lives. No one had to decide anything

17 in haste. The period envisaged was one year plus another year. Is that

18 right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Even General Loncar, who was commander of the 11th Corps,

21 remained as some sort of - I don't know how to put it - assistant to the

22 international administrator, Walker, at the time in Eastern Slavonia?

23 A. Yes, General Loncar did remain for a while.

24 Q. Now I should like to draw your attention to point 12, which

25 envisages -- unfortunately, I only have it in English, so I'll read it out

1 in English, but it will be translated for you. [In English] "Not later

2 than 30 days before the end of the transitional period" --

3 [Interpretation] which means after this two-year period -- [In English]

4 "elections for all local government bodies, including for municipalities,

5 districts, and counties, as well as the right of the Serbian community to

6 appoint a joint Council --" [Interpretation] I'm not getting a

7 translation. Is this being translated? Are you hearing the translation?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Could I hear the B/C/S translation, please.

10 A. I'm not getting it either.

11 Q. There's no interpretation from English into Serbian.

12 JUDGE MAY: Let's try again.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. So I'm reading point

14 12.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC:

16 Q. "Not later than 30 days before the end of the transitional

17 period, elections for all local government bodies, including for

18 municipalities, districts, and counties, as well as the right of the

19 Serbian community to appoint a joint Council of municipalities, shall be

20 organised by the Transitional Administration," [Interpretation] et cetera.

21 So this agreement establishes the right of the Se