1 Wednesday, 25 June 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, am I going to be allowed a

8 little more time, as I requested?

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes, you can have another hour and three quarters.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I have a large number of

11 documents here, so I'll have to make a selection.

12 WITNESS: MICHAEL CHARLES WILLIAMS [Resumed]

13 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Williams, you said that the situation on the

15 Sarajevo front became much worse in the second half of 1994, and I think

16 you said in that regard -- and you say this in your statement on page 7,

17 paragraph 6, in fact. I'd like to draw your attention to that for it to

18 be easier for you to follow my question. As I said, you say that it

19 worsened visibly, because as you said, the Bosnian Serbs closed the only

20 ground route across Mount Igman, allowing passage only to military

21 transports belonging to the UN. I think that's what you said, words to

22 that effect, Mr. Williams. Is that right?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. All right. Now, my question is this: Why in your statement did

25 you omit to explain why this road across Mount Igman was closed in the

1 first place?

2 A. Well, I think it was closed for a variety of reasons, but the

3 principal reason that I recall was that it -- the road had become

4 increasingly difficult and dangerous to traverse. I would draw your

5 attention, for example, to an incident on July the 27th, when a convoy

6 came under sustained gunfire from Bosnian Serb positions and a British

7 soldier tragically lost his life in that incident.

8 Q. Well, I'm just going to read out something and ask you whether you

9 know about this. It's something that this man wrote, Mr. David Fraser, in

10 fact, in his statement says the following: That in the morning on the 6th

11 of October, 1994 a team of the BH army launched an attack on the camp of

12 Bosnian Serbs on Mount Igman and they left 17 dead behind them. The

13 Muslims passed through the demilitarised zone in order to reach that area.

14 They passed the terrain which the Serbs handed over at a time when an

15 agreement had been reached in February 1994. Now, is that a truthful

16 explanation of what happened or not? And you have this in David Fraser's

17 statement.

18 A. David Fraser's statement is not familiar with -- to me, but I

19 would confirm the incident that you referred to in -- on the 6th of

20 October. In fact, I recall well being in Sarajevo that day with

21 Mr. Akashi, and he went to see President Izetbegovic to protest strongly

22 about the incident which you refer to. I mean, I think you're correct in

23 saying that there was fighting along this road involving the two warring

24 sides, but I have to say to you that fire and harassment of UN convoys

25 came only from one side.

1 Q. All right. So this is correct and not correct at the same time.

2 But let's not waste time on that. There are records about that and facts

3 too.

4 Now, as you did have this piece of information from the

5 explanation you've just given - I gather you did have information to that

6 effect - did you intentionally fail to explain the entirety of the event,

7 or was that quite simply a bias form of presenting it?

8 JUDGE MAY: Let me just consider this question.

9 What is the bias you're suggesting?

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it says that the Serbs cut off

11 the sole road across the ground and that they just let the UN through,

12 whereas no explanation is given why this land route was closed off and in

13 fact that it was closed off precisely because of the event that Mr. Fraser

14 describes, that is to say, a UN officer writing in his own statement about

15 it.

16 JUDGE MAY: So the question is to the witness: Dr. Williams, you

17 didn't mention this in your statement. Was there any particular reason

18 for that?

19 THE WITNESS: There was no particular reason for it at all, and I

20 would repeat that I think the closure of the road arose from several

21 circumstances. Mr. Milosevic is correct to draw attention to this very

22 serious incident on the 6th of October, but I would repeat, the prime

23 reason for the closure of the road was repeated attacks on UN humanitarian

24 convoys.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. I can't quite understand that, because the Serbs closed -- if the

2 Serbs closed off the road, now, why would they close off the road and as

3 you yourself say they let the UN convoys pass through. They were the only

4 ones that were allowed through. They didn't allow anybody else through;

5 that is to say, the Muslim transports at all. And you said that yourself,

6 I believe.

7 JUDGE MAY: Is there anything you think you can add.

8 THE WITNESS: I'm afraid I cannot add anything further to that

9 point, Judge May.

10 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you made your point. The witness has

11 agreed with what you said, that there was this incident. Now, spending

12 further time on it doesn't really assist.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Fine, Mr. May.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Now, do you happen to know, Mr. Williams, that the Muslims did not

16 withdraw from that part of the demilitarised zone, not even after protests

17 and meetings that were held with Delic and Divljak and General Michael

18 Rose and the French general, Gobillard, on the 8th of October, 1994. So

19 they held negotiations, these two negotiating sides, the two generals and

20 the others, and not even then did they withdraw. Do you know about that?

21 Just give me a yes or no answer and we can move on.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And I hope it's not being challenged that the Muslim forces used

24 the peace agreement of 1994 in order to take up positions in the

25 demilitarised zone itself.

1 A. There were --

2 Q. Which according to agreement was under Serb control and in order

3 to sign the agreement they had passed it over to UN control. So the Serbs

4 handed over the control of this demilitarised zone to the -- to UNPROFOR,

5 and the Muslims used this, took advantage of that, to take control of it

6 and to make something -- score a point for themselves, give themselves the

7 military advantage. Do you know about that? Just say yes or no, please.

8 A. I would agree with you that there were many probing actions and

9 infiltrations of the demilitarised zone by Bosnian government forces.

10 Q. All right, then. Tell me, why are you distorting events and

11 showing them as aggressive acts on one side, on the part of one side,

12 namely the Bosnian Serbs, when your employees and staff deny this in

13 argumentative fashion, according to what I've just read out, and you

14 yourself say that it is indeed correct and true?

15 A. I think because you cannot separate the incidents which you have

16 been describing and the pattern of behaviour that you've alluded to from

17 the fact that this was a city under siege and there is no doubt what were

18 the forces that were besieging the city. You also fail to mention that

19 throughout this period, from October 1994 onwards, the UN was having

20 increasing difficulties in operating the air bridge into Sarajevo airport,

21 and that -- those difficulties arose because of obstacles placed by the

22 Bosnian Serbs and frequent threats to UN aircraft from Bosnian Serb

23 forces.

24 Q. Well, did they shoot down a plane at all, Mr. Williams? Did the

25 Serbs shoot down a plane during the war at all belonging to the UN or

1 anybody else, any other kind of organisation, international one or

2 whatever? Did they shoot down a plane?

3 A. Well, I can tell you of several instances. I can tell you not of

4 planes being shot down, thankfully. But on the 17th of April, 1994, for

5 example, the force commander's plane coming into Sarajevo was directly

6 shot at by Bosnian Serb forces. That was raised immediately with

7 Dr. Karadzic, he did not deny the incident. On the 12th of March, 1995,

8 an aircraft carrying Mr. Akashi into Sarajevo was directly shot at from

9 Bosnian Serb positions, causing one of his bodyguards to be seriously

10 injured. And my recollection is that that officer had to be medevaced to

11 the United States, in fact, such were the nature of his injuries.

12 More often than not the threat was made very, very clear by

13 General Mladic. We had withdrawn our guarantees for safety for UN

14 aircraft. And then Mr. Akashi and the force commander had to make the

15 judgement that it was too dangerous to fly into Sarajevo. I would also

16 point you to the fact that in the latter part of 1994 onwards, especially

17 from October, Serb air defences around Sarajevo were reinforced and

18 adopted a more threatening position to UN aircraft.

19 Q. Mr. Williams, what I asked you was whether they shot down any

20 planes, and you're now explaining all the things that took place and all

21 the incidents. Incidents are possible in war. But as far as I know, not

22 a single plane was shot down, according to my information. Is that right

23 or not?

24 A. I would confirm that not a single plane was shot down.

25 Q. And these Serbs that you call the aggressors and so forth, they

1 were also citizens of Sarajevo and citizens of the surrounding areas who

2 lived there in those areas and in Sarajevo on their own territory, at

3 home. So they weren't -- they weren't, in fact, waging siege against

4 their own city. It was the frontline that was located there, regardless

5 of the fact that of course any shelling was to be denounced. And we did

6 so.

7 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Let's come to a question. The point

8 which is apparently being made is that it wasn't a siege. I don't quite

9 understand it, but maybe you could throw some light on it, Dr. Williams, I

10 don't know. It wasn't a siege; it was local people, I suppose it's being

11 said, defending their own homes, and therefore it couldn't have been a

12 siege. I'm not sure it's a question you can answer. But if you can make

13 any useful comment, please do. If not, just say you can't possibly

14 answer.

15 THE WITNESS: Mr. Milosevic is absolutely correct in saying that

16 many, many Serbs lived on the Bosnian Serb side of the confrontation line.

17 It's also worth pointing out that there were Serbs who lived in Bosnian

18 government controlled parts of the city, and indeed that there was a

19 Bosnian Serb civic council within Sarajevo that frequently made comments

20 and statements, one of which is, I believe, in Exhibit 21 of my --

21 attached to my statements yesterday.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. And just let me add, or, rather, ask you, Mr. Williams, were the

24 Serbs able to leave Sarajevo of their own free will, the ones living in

25 Sarajevo, the part of Sarajevo that was under the control of Muslim

1 forces; could they? Were they able to leave if they felt like it?

2 A. Well, I think that's rather -- rather an odd question because it

3 was -- it was very, very difficult for anyone to leave the city of

4 Sarajevo throughout most of the three years from 1992 to the autumn of

5 1995.

6 Q. I'm asking you whether they had the freedom to leave Sarajevo.

7 Were they at liberty to leave Sarajevo, in view of the positions held by

8 the authorities and the Muslim authorities, in fact? Were they free to

9 leave? It's another matter whether it was difficult to leave and whether

10 they could or couldn't, but were they free to leave if they so desired?

11 A. I believe that like most citizens of the city of Sarajevo

12 throughout this period, it was nigh on impossible for them to leave.

13 Q. Well, because the authorities wouldn't permit them to, the Muslim

14 authorities of Sarajevo; isn't that right, Mr. Williams?

15 A. My recollection is that there were restrictions on all citizens in

16 the city of Sarajevo. There were the difficulties that there was

17 virtually no access to and from the city for citizens. I do not recall

18 specific restrictions being imposed upon Serb inhabitants in the city.

19 Q. But you do know, I'm sure, that the Serb military commanders and

20 Serb civilian authorities kept repeating the fact that citizens who wished

21 to leave should be allowed to do so and that they guaranteed them free

22 passage and safety and security; isn't that right?

23 A. I believe there were some statements to that effect, yes.

24 Q. Very well. Now, do you know that General Michael Rose on the 5th

25 of February, 1994 - that is to say, when you were occupying your post, the

1 one you have explained to us - proposed a peace plan for Sarajevo, and as

2 far as my information tells me and as far as I've noted down here, it was

3 composed of four basic elements: A cease-fire; that was under number two,

4 the second point -- that was to come into force on the 10th of February.

5 B was within a radius of 20 kilometres; that is to say, that should be the

6 zone from which all heavy weapons would be withdrawn and placed under UN

7 control. Under C, point C, was that the UN troops should be deployed at

8 key points between the two warring sides; and D, to set up a joint

9 commission composed of the representatives of Serbs, Muslims, and led by

10 the command of the Bosnian sector in order to discuss the details of a

11 peace plan and compile them. Do you know that within the frameworks of

12 that plan collection centres were established for the collection of heavy

13 weaponry and equipment? Are you aware of all that? Do you know about all

14 that?

15 A. Yes, I am, Mr. Milosevic.

16 Q. And is it also true and correct what Mr. Thomas Roy says in his

17 statement on several occasions, in several parts, because you took

18 constant shelling of Sarajevo in 1994 and 1995, that the peace plan dated

19 back to February 1994, and he emphasises that, that it wielded significant

20 influence on Sarajevo and that the Bosnian Serbs ceased to shell the town

21 and did not continue at the same level and to the same degree as was

22 previously the case. Do you know about that? Did information of that

23 kind reach you?

24 A. Well, I don't have a clue who Thomas Roy is. With regard to the

25 information you ascribe to him, I -- I think you're wrong in summarising

1 my view that there was constant shelling in 1994/1995. In fact, I hope I

2 was careful to say that there was a substantial reduction in shelling

3 following the February 1994 Sarajevo crisis, precisely because a lot of

4 the heavy weaponry was drawn back from the surroundings of the city. This

5 didn't mean to say that it didn't happen from time to time, but it was

6 greatly reduced from February 1994.

7 Q. So you in fact agree with the observation.

8 Now, I'm not clear in the differences in your statement between

9 what you say in your statement and what you're now saying. I don't quite

10 understand.

11 Now, Mr. Williams, on page 4 of your statement, you refer to the

12 April talks held in Belgrade which related to the Gorazde enclave. That's

13 right, isn't it?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Do you happen to remember that those negotiations which you point

16 to were -- that there were meetings before that in April on the

17 Sarajevo -- at Sarajevo airport between the generals, Delic on the Muslim

18 side, in fact, General Mladic, and General Rose, that those were the

19 preliminary meetings with a view to resolving the Gorazde situation? So

20 General Michael Rose at Sarajevo airport initiated agreements with both

21 commanders, Delic and Mladic, the three of them, in fact, from the 7th to

22 the 9th of April were at Sarajevo airport meeting and holding meetings in

23 order to solve the Gorazde problem.

24 A. That's also correct. And of course there were also meetings

25 between Mr. Akashi and Dr. Karadzic around this period in Pale.

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1 Q. And do you know why these talks and negotiations did not end in a

2 solution of any kind, that they didn't bear fruit and a solution wasn't

3 found? Why not?

4 A. My very clear recollection is that the primary reason why these

5 talks failed was that Bosnian Serb forces continually pressed their attack

6 on the safe area of Gorazde. I think the reports are very, very clear on

7 that.

8 Q. All right. And do you know that a solution was not found for the

9 simple reason that the representatives of Republika Srpska or, rather,

10 General Mladic insisted on a cease-fire not only for Gorazde but also for

11 the entire territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, whereas the Muslim side did

12 not want to have a general cease-fire and truce? Wasn't that how it was

13 or not? Is what I'm saying correct or not, Mr. Williams?

14 A. You're correct in summarising the position of General Mladic and

15 the Bosnian Serbs. I have to say I find it an extraordinary tactic that

16 one side in a conflict continues with a most brutal attack on a declared

17 UN safe area deliberately targeting civilians and is unwilling to stop

18 those attacks except on the other side agreeing to a general cease-fire

19 throughout Bosnia.

20 Q. Your very own senior military observer says that the Muslims did

21 not want a general cease-fire until they reinforced their own combat

22 lines. This is an explanation that is quite different, and it was

23 proffered by a senior military observer; is that correct, Mr. Williams, or

24 not? Do you agree with this position or not?

25 A. I don't agree with that position at all, and I'm not even sure who

1 you're referring to.

2 Q. Isn't it correct, Mr. Williams, that in connection with an article

3 published in the Washington Post by John Parfot [phoen] from the foreign

4 policy service of Washington Post, didn't you investigate that? Because

5 it criticised the role of the USA and NATO in the war in

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, especially in the vicinity of Sarajevo. Please just

7 give me a yes or a no answer.

8 A. I'm trying to follow your question for a moment.

9 JUDGE MAY: You'll have to clarify the question, Mr. Milosevic.

10 What is this about?

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. I'm asking whether it's correct that you started an investigation

13 in relation to an article published by the Washington Post which had

14 criticised the --

15 JUDGE MAY: When, Mr. Milosevic? When was this article published,

16 so we can try and identify it.

17 MR. KAY: I think it's the --

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have it here.

19 MR. KAY: I think it's John Pomfritt, Saturday, April the 30th of

20 1994.

21 JUDGE MAY: Have we got it in our papers?

22 MR. KAY: It's in a vast amount of Rule 68 material. I don't know

23 whether the Prosecution have it to hand.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have it right here. This UNPROFOR

25 confidential material addressed to Mr. Yasushi Akashi from Mr. Michael

1 Williams, director for information, and the subject is: Washington Post

2 Article Inquiry. That's the document that I received from Mr. Groome.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. So is it correct that within that investigation -- so this is a

5 document of yours. You do remember that, don't you?

6 MR. GROOME: Your Honour.

7 JUDGE MAY: It's not fair on the witness to --

8 MR. GROOME: We are looking for the document. And if

9 Mr. Milosevic would be kind enough to provide us the ERN number, we can do

10 it quicker. And I would ask that any questions regarding the document be

11 postponed until a copy can be put before the witness.

12 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

13 JUDGE MAY: You've got a copy.

14 THE WITNESS: Yes, I now do.

15 JUDGE MAY: The witness has got a copy; we haven't. But we'll see

16 how we get on.

17 What's the -- give us the ERN number, please.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] R0101447. That's the first page.

19 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I have it here, and I'll have copies

20 made for the Court immediately.

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1994.

23 JUDGE MAY: The witness has got the copy.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to save time. Please.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. So with that investigation, did you talk to Mr. -- to General

2 Michael Rose?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Please take a look at item 16.

5 A. You mean paragraph 16?

6 Q. Paragraph 16, yes. Paragraph 16 of your statement, of your

7 report, rather, the report that you submitted to Mr. Akashi. It says: [In

8 English] "General Rose expressed more generally his view on the conflicts

9 and mentioned that he was convinced that prior to events in Gorazde the

10 Serbs were ready for a general cease-fire agreement and that he was

11 confident that both sides would eventually return to the negotiating

12 table. This appears to be consistent with ideas appearing in the article

13 to the effect that Serb forces were ready for peace despite the recent

14 attack on Gorazde."

15 [Interpretation] So is that beyond dispute, Mr. Williams?

16 A. Yes. I mean, if you would allow me now, I will comment on the

17 document that you've brought before me.

18 This document relates to an off-the-record briefing that General

19 Rose gave to journalists in Sarajevo. As is often the case in these

20 off-the-record briefings that senior officials give, some of it becomes

21 public and perhaps General Rose on occasion was perhaps more indiscreet

22 than he could have been.

23 Now, to refer to the specific paragraph, paragraph 16, that

24 Mr. Milosevic draws my attention to, as Mr. Milosevic said, General Rose

25 said that prior to events in Gorazde Serbs were ready for a general

1 cease-fire agreement. I think that was his assessment. He was basing

2 that, I believe, on the conclusion of the Sarajevo crisis in February 1994

3 and also on the fact that in March 1994 a peace agreement had been

4 concluded between the Bosnian Muslims and the Bosnian Croats. His hope

5 was that that would lead similarly, in a short period of time, to a peace

6 agreement between Bosnian government forces and the Serbs. Alas, that

7 didn't take place. What was the fundamental reason why that didn't take

8 place? It was because of the attack on Gorazde.

9 JUDGE MAY: Well, let's -- we'll have a copy of this.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you please have this

11 exhibited, Mr. May. I'm not asking for the entire report of Mr. Williams

12 to be exhibited, but at least paragraph 16.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. All right, Mr. Williams. What you said just now, isn't that a

15 confirmation, and also what General Rose says, and you quote in your

16 report not only General Rose but you also state yourself that the initial

17 talks about Gorazde were held at Butmir airport and failed not because of

18 the Serbs but because of the Muslim delegation that did not want to agree

19 to a general cease-fire for Bosnia-Herzegovina.

20 A. I've given my assessment of those talks at the airport in Sarajevo

21 and I don't think I have anything further to add on that.

22 Q. All right. In your opinion, was the reason why the Muslims did

23 not agree to a general cease-fire or even negotiations about a general

24 cease-fire for Bosnia-Herzegovina, which had originally been proposed by

25 the Serbs, was the reason for that that they were expecting NATO strikes

1 against Serb positions?

2 A. No. I -- I must say, as you're persisting in this line of

3 questioning, I've spent a lot of my professional life looking at wars and

4 conflicts in various parts of the world. I do find it quite extraordinary

5 that you're trying to put this suggestion that the only way that the

6 Bosnian Serbs would agree to stop attacking - I repeat - a UN safe area

7 and deliberately targeting civilian officials, both of which I regard, by

8 the way, as completely uncontested facts, you say that the only way to

9 avoid this is to agree a complete cease-fire and a settlement throughout

10 Bosnia. I find that an extraordinary supposition and one which, again in

11 my experience of conflict and so on, I couldn't see that working in any

12 part of the world in any conflict.

13 Q. Mr. Williams, that's not what I'm saying at all. You know that

14 the war was waged all over Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Serbs had proposed a

15 general cease-fire. Are you holding this against them, this kind of a

16 proposal for a general cease-fire, that is to say, not only in Gorazde but

17 in the entire territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina? So that would include

18 Gorazde too. Gorazde was not an exception of any kind. I'm not claiming

19 that that's the reason, as you had put it, for the attack on Gorazde, I

20 mean. Or do I know, for that matter. So you know --

21 JUDGE MAY: I don't understand this question. What is it you want

22 to ask the witness? Would you make it clear. What is it you want to ask?

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, we are going to look at the

24 question of Gorazde, apart from everything else too. And by the way, it

25 was resolved with my assistance. But I'm asking Mr. Williams --

1 JUDGE MAY: Let's get to Gorazde, instead of going round and round

2 this point. Yes. What is your question?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So let's get to the question of

4 Gorazde. We are going to get to the question of Gorazde. But before that

5 I'm asking Mr. Williams whether he's aware of the fact that fighting took

6 place not only in Gorazde but throughout the territory of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes. I don't think we need trouble with that. I

9 think that's accepted. Let's move on.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. Groome produced a document here dated the 17th of April. I

13 think that this was in tab 14. I'm not going to dwell on it. Akashi is

14 writing and sending a copy to Annan and all the rest and he's reporting

15 about a meeting with Karadzic and Izetbegovic. And since Akashi talked to

16 both political leaders, that is to say, both to Karadzic and to

17 Izetbegovic, you commented upon this report and you said that it gave a

18 very gloomy forecast, in terms of the entire situation. That's what I

19 wrote down here on the margins. You said that the situation was very

20 gloomy, very difficult; right?

21 A. Yes, I would confirm that.

22 Q. Now, do you remember, Mr. Williams, that Mr. Akashi actually

23 talked to me, asking me to help resolve that question? Or rather, do you

24 know that Mr. Akashi from time to time - I would even say frequently, in

25 view of the fact that he was in Zagreb - wished to consult me, to hear my

1 views and to ask for certain assistance and intervention that I could

2 possibly exercise vis-a-vis the leadership of Republika Srpska? Do you

3 remember that?

4 A. Yes, I do, very clearly.

5 Q. Now, take a look, then, at the report of the Secretary-General of

6 the UN related to Resolution 913 from 1994. It is also provided here. So

7 let's just go through this briefly. So in paragraph 3 he says that, "On

8 the 22nd and 23rd of April, my Special Representative" - "my" meaning the

9 Secretary-General's. It's the Secretary-General who is saying this, so it

10 is the special representative, "Yasushi Akashi, and the commander of

11 UNPROFOR, General Bertrand de Lapresle, met in Belgrade with civilian and

12 military authorities and the leadership of the Bosnian Serbs, at the

13 invitation of President Slobodan Milosevic, the president of the Republic

14 of Serbia." And then he moves on to say what was achieved. But before

15 that, I would like to draw your attention to page 10 of this same report.

16 JUDGE MAY: Which tab are we in?

17 THE WITNESS: It's tab 20, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MAY: Thank you very much.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Page 10, paragraph 19. Since the Secretary-General explains in

21 quite a bit of detail what the situation was like, actually, he says, 19,

22 "On May 14, 1994, my Special Representatives spoke with President

23 Milosevic, who had assisted" -- that's what he says: "who had

24 assisted" -- [In English] "On the Belgrade meeting on 22nd and 23rd April

25 1994."

1 [Interpretation] Then I repeat to him that I'm going to do my

2 utmost to have these done -- these things done urgently so. So in these

3 two paragraphs, it can clearly be seen that my role and my efforts to

4 assist both sides in order to reach an agreement or, rather, to have this

5 focal point of crisis resolved at that moment, resolved, this was a cause

6 of concern to everyone. And it was called Gorazde. Is that right,

7 Mr. Williams?

8 A. Yes. Well, you've drawn attention to paragraph 19 of this report

9 on page 10, and you refer to the section: "My Special Representative

10 spoke with President Milosevic." Now, the reason Mr. Akashi spoke with

11 you on that day, which was what, some two weeks, a full two weeks after

12 the meetings on April 22nd/23rd was because of Mr. Akashi's dismay and

13 unhappiness that the full provisions of the -- that agreement had not been

14 satisfactorily implemented by the Bosnian Serbs, and he raised with you

15 several specific points, namely the continuing deployment of heavy

16 weaponry within the 20-kilometre zone --

17 Q. I beg your pardon for interrupting, Mr. Williams. The point of

18 this, that the Secretary-General says when mentioning me in this

19 paragraph, is this phrase: "who had assisted in the convening of the

20 Belgrade meeting [In English] on the 22nd and the 23rd of April."

21 [Interpretation] That's the only reason why I read this paragraph,

22 because this is connected with the first one, in paragraph 3, where it

23 says that at my invitation they came, both, that is to say, Akashi and de

24 Lapresle, and with you and Karadzic and Mladic and their associates. And

25 then he underlines here that -- he says that I had assisted in the

1 convening of this meeting that led to a solution to Gorazde. When one

2 reads this document, this can be seen clearly. Right?

3 A. Yes. But I -- you've drawn to my attention and the Court's

4 attention paragraph 19, where you correctly say the Secretary-General says

5 you assisted with that meeting. But the paragraph also implicitly shows

6 that Mr. Akashi was at that point very unhappy with the lack of proper

7 implementation of that agreement by the Bosnian Serb side.

8 Q. We were all dissatisfied with the lack of implementation on both

9 sides, but the crisis at Gorazde ended through this agreement; isn't that

10 right or is that not right, Mr. Williams?

11 A. The attack on Gorazde by the Bosnian Serb side did cease, but

12 there was never - and I would repeat never - there was never a proper

13 implementation of the agreement that was reached in Belgrade on April 22

14 and April 23. And in his conversation, and I think also a letter of May

15 14, which is in this documentation, Mr. Akashi lists the continued

16 presence, for example, of Serb heavy weaponry in the exclusion zone, the

17 fact that a UN convoy had been held up for six days on the way to Gorazde,

18 as well as other violations of that agreement.

19 Q. Mr. Williams, please look at paragraph 6 of this same report of

20 the Secretary-General. And it says: [In English] "...violations of the

21 cease-fire attributable to both parties between the afternoon of 23rd of

22 April and the morning of 25th of April, 1994, the cease-fire has generally

23 been respected since the later date, with only isolated and sporadic small

24 arms fire.

25 "This first contingent included some 100 infantry" --

1 [Interpretation] It has to do with the UNPROFOR convoy -- [In English]

2 "civilian affairs and civilian police personnel and was led by the

3 UNPROFOR Head of Civil Affairs, Mr. Sergio Vieira de Mello, and the

4 Commander of Sector Sarajevo UNPROFOR Bosnia and Herzegovina, Brigadier

5 General Andre Soubirou. They were subsequently reinforced to a total

6 present strength of 432, all personnel included."

7 [Interpretation] So this agreement, according to this report, was

8 implemented. As for what happened later, that is not something I'm

9 talking about now. The war went on, but since you refer to my role here,

10 is it being denied that my role was to help find a way out of this crisis

11 And doesn't this clearly show that I could not give any kind of orders to

12 the leadership of Republika Srpska and General Mladic? I could just

13 present every conceivable argument in order to have an agreement reached

14 between them and UNPROFOR. Wasn't that the position, Mr. Williams?

15 Wasn't that clear?

16 JUDGE MAY: There are two or three questions here. First -- the

17 first question is: What was the role of the accused? And it is suggested

18 that he was helping to find a way out of the crisis.

19 Would you agree with that, Dr. Williams?

20 THE WITNESS: Yes. Mr. -- the meetings was clearly convened by

21 President Milosevic. It did lead to the agreement. And as the

22 Secretary-General's report in para 6 quite rightly points out, the

23 cease-fire following that agreement generally held. Equally, in para 17

24 of the Secretary-General's report, he again lists several incidents of

25 harassment of UN convoys by Bosnian Serb forces. But I accept the

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1 assertion that the attack stopped, and I believe that the meeting in

2 Belgrade and the agreement came from that played a huge role in stopping

3 that attack.

4 JUDGE MAY: And the next question is this - and whether you feel

5 you can answer it or not, Dr. Williams, is a matter for you. It may be

6 more a matter of what inferences one draws. But as it was put to you, you

7 should have the opportunity of answering it - did it not show, this

8 incident, that the accused could not give orders to the leadership of

9 Republika Srpska and General Mladic?

10 THE WITNESS: I don't quite accept that. I think President

11 Milosevic -- President Milosevic's influence at that meeting was very

12 strong, very strong indeed. He was the principal player at that meeting.

13 I recall one specific incident, which I believe I referred to in my

14 testimony yesterday, when President Milosevic scolded Dr. Karadzic for the

15 continuing blockage of a UN convoy on the way to Gorazde that was held up

16 in a village called Rogatica, and then told him, "Look, sort this out

17 now." And Karadzic, as I recall, left the room and made some phone calls.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. Williams, this meeting lasted 18 hours, and it consisted of

20 persuading everyone to agree to the terms for a cease-fire. This was, if

21 I can put it that way, a mediation that was extremely difficult in efforts

22 aimed at having a result reached. And that fact shows that there was no

23 possibility of me being in a position to order someone to do anything.

24 That I criticised the stopping of convoys and things like that is not

25 being denied at all. After all, I did this in public as well. I spoke

1 for the media about this. I said that this was something that should be

2 criticised. I insisted that convoys and hostages should be freed. I

3 insisted that the pilots should be freed. I insisted the refugees should

4 be rescued and that humanitarian aid should be provided, and so on and so

5 forth. So do you understand when you look at this entire range of

6 activities that this has nothing to do whatsoever, with - how should I put

7 this? - chain of command or order issuing or whatever? Why do I need to

8 talk to someone for 18 hours if I can simply issue an order to them?

9 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness answer.

10 THE WITNESS: The length of the meeting is incontestable. I

11 recall it as being 18 hours myself. But I -- that was the pattern, I

12 think, of -- of the meetings that so often surrounded this conflict and

13 war, and the Bosnian Serbs were reluctant to come to an agreement except

14 upon the best possible terms for themselves.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Well, all right. But this agreement was accepted by both, so it

17 is not being contested, is it, that some kind of a solution was found? It

18 certainly was not imposed on the other side.

19 JUDGE MAY: No. I think the witness has taken this as far as he

20 can. He's described what happened. And it will be a matter for us -- it

21 will be a matter for us to determine what role the accused played in these

22 events and what the extent of his powers were. It may be a very crucial

23 issue, which we will have to determine.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Very well, Mr. May.

25 This is a very lengthy report. If only that report were to be read, one

1 could see what the situation was actually like, what the true situation

2 was.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Before that, there is yet another report sent from Akashi to

5 Annan, the 13th of April, 1994. Mr. Groome also produced it here. I'm

6 just going to read item 6 -- or rather, paragraph 6 of this report of his,

7 this note that he sent to Annan. [In English] " President Milosevic

8 encouraged me to normalise our relationship with the Bosnian Serbs as soon

9 as possible." [Interpretation] And so on. And then it goes on to say:

10 [In English] "The tenor of the communique of President Milosevic's office

11 on our meeting broadcast on the radio was positive... the serious

12 negotiations leading to global and durable cease-fire." [Interpretation]

13 Is it quite visible here that every effort is being made for an agreement

14 between the UN and the political and military leadership of Republika

15 Srpska to normalise their relations, which would enable further agreements

16 and then to move on towards the main goal, that being the war to end,

17 which was something that was repeated umpteen times.

18 I have quoted quite correctly, Mr. Williams, rest assured. So I

19 am talking about the preparations, the run-up, the efforts being made on

20 both sides for rapprochement views to be achieved so that the problem

21 could be overcome. Is that right, Mr. Williams?

22 A. Well, I would confirm your account of the 13th of April meeting

23 that you had with Mr. Akashi in -- in Belgrade. I'm not sure what the

24 question is here.

25 JUDGE MAY: The reference is to tab 4, paragraph 6.

1 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. I was saying -- it says: "President Milosevic encouraged me to

4 normalise our relationship with the Bosnian Serbs as soon as possible."

5 And then he says there was a communique of my office -- "The tenor of the

6 communique of President Milosevic's office on our meeting broadcast on the

7 radio was positive; the emphasis was on the need to cool down and to

8 engage in serious negotiations leading to global and durable cease-fire."

9 So this was a generalised effort and Akashi came to talk to me, to

10 consult with me, and to seek assistance from someone whom he believed

11 could act as an intermediary, and that is how this mediation took place,

12 in fact. Is that right, Mr. Williams?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Then you also have here a kind of note from a meeting. This was

15 held on the 23rd of April, 1994, a meeting in Belgrade with Bosnian Serb

16 civilian and military authorities. The very heading shows that it is a

17 meeting held in Belgrade with the civilian and military authorities of the

18 Bosnian Serbs. So it was a meeting between you, and Michael Rose also

19 reports about that meeting between you. I chaired it. "The meeting was

20 chaired by Mr. Milosevic and it was attended by --" and it lists all the

21 people present; Akashi, De Lapresle, and Sergio de Mello. And you quite

22 correctly quoted that I had proposed that a normalisation of relations be

23 discussed between UNPROFOR and the Bosnian Serbs, that a solution to the

24 Bosnian crisis -- to the Gorazde crisis, and once that crisis has been

25 settled, that the elements for an agreement be discussed for an overall, a

1 general cessation of hostilities. Is that right, Mr. Williams? That is

2 what is noted here.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Point 6. Since I have to save time, I can't read out everything,

5 though it would be very useful for us to analyse this document. Item 6:

6 Mr. Akashi speaks about his dissatisfaction in connection with the

7 approaches. And then it goes on to sentence 3 in point 6.

8 "Notwithstanding this complication, he was happy to note -- [in English]

9 "that there appeared to be a general agreement on the desirability of

10 sending troops to Gorazde and suggested that UNPROFOR's original proposal

11 to dispatch one battalion to Gorazde be revived."

12 [Interpretation] And then -- it is not so important. What he goes

13 on to say is not so important later on. The composition of the UNPROFOR

14 battalion, actually.

15 JUDGE MAY: Tab 16. You should tell us where we are. It's

16 impossible to follow, Mr. Milosevic, with this -- this way you go on.

17 Tab 16, paragraph 6.

18 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is tab 16, yes, and paragraph 6,

20 yes. And I don't know which tab it is, but it refers to the meeting in

21 Belgrade. I took out the documents in the order in which they were

22 commented on by Mr. Williams.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. However, what we heard a moment ago from you, in connection with

25 Rogatica, is slightly different. Will you look at paragraph 9, please,

1 Mr. Williams. [In English] "At this point, President Milosevic sought

2 confirmation from the Force Commander" -- [Interpretation] Which means

3 General de Lapresle, right, the force commander? [In English] "The convoy

4 blocked at Rogatica had been 'deblocked.' The Force Commander indicated

5 that he had just been informed that the convoy was still unable to proceed

6 and desired to return to Sarajevo. Mr. Akashi said that if full

7 guarantees could be given that the convoy would not be subject to further

8 problems and full freedom of movement were granted to UNPROFOR and other

9 agencies, he would ensure that another large convoy would be sent to

10 Gorazde the following day. However, the BSA would have to honour a

11 cease-fire agreement in the enclave and this should, ideally, be in place

12 before the convoy was dispatched. In addition, the modalities of

13 deployment of UNPROFOR troops in the enclave must be left to UNPROFOR to

14 decide."

15 [Interpretation] So I am asking Mr. de Lapresle, because it was

16 hovering in the air, this report that the convoy had been blocked. I

17 asked him whether it had been deblocked. He said it hadn't, not yet. And

18 then Akashi says that only full guarantees are provided, then another

19 convoy would be sent the next day. And then Dr. Karadzic gave his

20 assurances that the convoy would not have any further problems. That is

21 in paragraph 10. But he also agreed on the need for a cease-fire. "He

22 insisted that it could only be established with a UN presence in the

23 enclave, [In English] firstly on the BSA side, in whose best interest it

24 was to establish a cease-fire, and then on the Bosnian side. He

25 recommended the details for the deployment force be worked out by UNPROFOR

1 and BSA military representatives." [Interpretation] That is the end.

2 Now, look at paragraph 11: "President Milosevic proposed that the

3 meeting be adjourned."

4 JUDGE MAY: No. No. You're not going to read out these enormous

5 parts of the statement or whatever, press statement, without asking the

6 witness a question about it.

7 Dr. Williams, you have seen that. Is that an accurate account of

8 what occurred?

9 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is. It is a reasonably accurate account. I

10 would draw the attention of the Court to paragraph 10, which Mr. Milosevic

11 has just read, and Dr. Karadzic's statement, "while he agreed on the need

12 for a cease-fire, it could only be established with a UN presence in the

13 enclave." But of course, it was precisely the Bosnian Serb side which was

14 preventing a UN presence in the enclave and which was holding up this

15 convoy at Rogatica.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. That is why I wish to read to you paragraph 11, because it shows,

18 as the whole course of the conversation showed, that it was a difficult

19 and dynamic meeting designed to achieve a solution. And paragraph 11

20 reads: "President Milosevic proposed that the meeting be adjourned to

21 enable to Force Commander and General Mladic to work out the details of

22 the deployment of an UNPROFOR unit in Gorazde [In English] and that a

23 decision on the same be made 'today (rather than) wait for another meeting

24 while people are dying.'"

25 [Interpretation] You will remember that there were various

1 proposals to postpone the meeting, to think things over, to see how things

2 would develop. And I said, let us have a short break, let the commanders

3 come to an agreement, let us finish this today because people are dying.

4 And that is what it says in your notes. I didn't write it.

5 "He expressed disappointment at any decision to turn back the

6 convoy at Rogatica, stating that such a move would be interpreted as being

7 the result of BSA intransigence while, in actual fact, all obstacles to

8 the convoy's movement had been removed."

9 Didn't they inform us that all the obstacles had been removed?

10 They informed us at that meeting, both you and me, that all the obstacles

11 had been removed.

12 "He strongly recommended that the convoy not return to Sarajevo

13 but remain the night in Rogatica, to be joined the following morning by

14 additional troops. [In English] He further proposed that meeting between

15 de Mello and Mladic focus on agreement on the following: The

16 identification of 3 kilometre zone around Gorazde; withdrawal of heavy

17 weapons from the outer ring of the circle around the town";

18 [Interpretation] thirdly, "monitoring of the cease-fire and related

19 agreements by UNPROFOR."

20 Then the next paragraph says -- was that how it was,

21 Mr. Williams? Is this a correct reflection of the meeting?

22 Look at the following paragraph, 12: "Following the rejection of

23 the proposals put forward" --

24 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness deal first of all with paragraph 11.

25 THE WITNESS: Yes. I think paragraph 11 is a correct record of

1 the meeting.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. [In English] "Following the rejection of the proposal put forward

4 by General Mladic in the meeting with General de Lapresle, President

5 Milosevic requested the SRSG" - Akashi - "to put forward UNPROFOR

6 proposals for a resolution of the Gorazde crisis. These proposals, agreed

7 upon on 22nd April and further refined on 23rd, are attached."

8 [Interpretation] So I insisted that Akashi propose -- make his own

9 proposal, and I insisted that proposal be accepted. Is that clear, at

10 least? That is what it says in this report.

11 A. Yes, I would confirm that.

12 JUDGE MAY: Help us with the acronym, please, Dr. Williams. SRSG?

13 THE WITNESS: Indeed. It's Special Representative of the

14 Secretary-General.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. SRSG is the abbreviation for Mr. Akashi, that is, the person

17 representing the Secretary-General of the United Nations, Special

18 Representative of the Secretary-General.

19 Anyway, Mr. Williams, this is your own press statement made on the

20 23rd of April, and you announced that the special representative,

21 Mr. Akashi, and General Bertrand de Lapresle had talks in Belgrade with

22 the leadership of the Bosnian Serbs, including Karadzic and the commander

23 of the army, Ratko Mladic. And you say at the end of the paragraph: "The

24 talks, hosted by the Serbian President, Mr. Milosevic [In English] were

25 aimed at securing an immediate cease-fire in Gorazde and the urgent

1 deployment of UNPROFOR troops in the town."

2 [Interpretation] You're practically confirming what actually was

3 agreed there. You referred to the Nordic battalion, what they accepted,

4 that is, the representatives of Republika Srpska. And I believe that is

5 not in dispute. This is your own press release confirming all this. Is

6 that right, Mr. Williams -- press statement, rather?

7 A. That's right. I can't find the statement immediately to hand now,

8 but you're -- I think you're doing a very correct reading of it.

9 Q. I can let you have a copy, if you'd like to have it.

10 JUDGE KWON: [Previous translation continues]... of the document,

11 front page.

12 THE WITNESS: Thank you. Yes, I have it now.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. And then again you have a report to Annan, sent by General de

15 Lapresle on the 25th of April, 1994, which actually confirms the success

16 of the agreement reached. In paragraph 1 it says: "The situation in

17 Gorazde has stabilised as the BSA forces have completed their withdrawal

18 to the 3-kilometre line agreed upon between Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Akashi in

19 Belgrade. This phase of the operation is now complete."

20 JUDGE MAY: Tab 17.

21 THE WITNESS: Yes.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Of course, I don't have time now to cover all these documents, but

24 I would like nevertheless to draw your attention to the fact that even

25 when Mr. Akashi complains to me, and he sends me a letter -- a copy of the

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1 letter that he sent to Karadzic, he says, addressing me: "As you may

2 know, the situation around Gorazde continues to be difficult. The

3 implementation of the agreement reached in Belgrade under your outstanding

4 leadership has encountered some insuperable difficulties. I have taken

5 the liberty of enclosing a letter sent to Karadzic," et cetera. I am

6 emphasising here the fact that Mr. Karadzic is paying tribute to the

7 efforts invested to achieve the agreement --

8 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, Mr. Akashi; interpreter's correction.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. And this was a turning point, I would say, for the events in

11 Bosnia.

12 Now, Mr. Williams, I have here with me -- we have now established

13 that when there were obstacles you informed Akashi, then Akashi writes to

14 Karadzic, Karadzic responds that this was caused by local inhabitants in

15 uniform but that no one was shooting. I won't delve into that. The

16 problem provoked by the forces of the Army of Republika Srpska are

17 immediately reported to the top - that is, Mr. Akashi - even when there

18 are no casualties, but simply men in uniform.

19 Now, look at this UNPROFOR report, Sector Sarajevo, sector

20 commander.

21 JUDGE MAY: Let's see if the witness agrees with what you're

22 putting. We are in fact in tab 18, for the record.

23 Dr. Williams, do you agree with what the accused is putting?

24 THE WITNESS: Sorry, no, I don't, Your Honour. In fact, it's not

25 just a question of men in uniform. If you look at Mr. Akashi's letter of

1 10 May, he lists a series of very serious violations of a cease-fire by

2 the Bosnian Serb forces, including the presence of heavy artillery and

3 convoys being held up for six days, and so on. So it's not a light matter

4 of simply some uniformed soldiers being in places they shouldn't be; these

5 are serious violations.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Williams, I have it here. I picked up the letter again,

8 though I had put it aside. Yes, they are serious violations, and I agree

9 with Mr. Akashi, but the violations regard mostly militiamen, as he puts

10 it, "but also, as late as Sunday, 8 May, infantrymen - remain present..."

11 So it says that they remain present within a radius of 3 kilometres around

12 Gorazde. So this is paragraph a). There's no fighting. There's no

13 combat. There's no shooting. It just says that they remain present. I

14 agree that it is serious, but there's no conflict there.

15 And then b), it says: "On 8 May, two 20-millimetre anti-aircraft

16 gun systems --" and the registration numbers are given -- "were found

17 within the 20-kilometre exclusion zone." So when they carried out

18 inspections, they found another two guns, they registered their numbers.

19 They were under a tarpaulin. They were covered. And they were towed from

20 Rogatica towards Gorazde. Now, there -- where they were being taken, it

21 doesn't matter; they shouldn't be there. And he says it's a violation of

22 paragraph 2 "of our Belgrade agreement." And he's writing this in his

23 letter to Karadzic. Et cetera, et cetera. So the letter refers to

24 certain details regarding the presence of troops and weapons that had

25 still not been withdrawn. But this is certainly important, and I am not

1 objecting in any way to what Mr. Akashi did.

2 But please look at this report sent by Colonel -- chief of staff,

3 Colonel Sonnic. This is 00552739 ERN number. I received this under Rule

4 68. I think it was not in any of the tabs. It may have been, but I'm not

5 sure. And it's addressed to General Karavelic, the 1st Corps of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it says: [In English] "Sir, on March 27, at about

7 4.00 a.m., the Bosnian patrol launched a deliberate attack at two Serb

8 observation posts deployed at grid 80378 --" [Interpretation] these are

9 the elevation points. [In English] "Three soldiers were killed and five

10 wounded on the BSA side. The Bosnian side had one man killed. Our

11 investigation has shown that this attack was deliberate and prepared in

12 advance. I strongly protest for this aggressive act against the Serbian

13 side and consider it as a direct violation of the cease-fire agreement

14 provocative as to both Serbian side and UNPROFOR."

15 [Interpretation] Mr. Williams, as I have already said, I have no

16 remarks to make regarding Mr. Akashi's complaints regarding the noted

17 presence --

18 JUDGE MAY: No, we're not going on like this. I don't know how

19 long you've been speaking for. Let the witness -- if you want the

20 document exhibited, let the witness see it.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Yes, please have a look at it.

23 JUDGE MAY: Dr. Williams, have a look at that. Have a look at

24 that and see if you agree that it's as the accused has put it.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. I was just reading from the document.

2 A. This is -- it's not a very clear document, I'm afraid. I mean, it

3 -- it gives a grid reference, which -- you know, unless I have a map

4 before me, I -- but as far as I can see, this doesn't refer to Gorazde,

5 Mr. Milosevic. This refers to an incident in Sarajevo. Is that right?

6 JUDGE MAY: And what is the -- just a moment. Can we have a date,

7 please, Dr. Williams.

8 THE WITNESS: There is a date on the document. It's dated the

9 31st of March.

10 JUDGE MAY: Of 1994?

11 THE WITNESS: Of 1994.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes. So it's about this time.

13 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes.

14 JUDGE MAY: It's before any of these talks.

15 THE WITNESS: Yes. I --

16 JUDGE MAY: There's no indication of where the violation occurred.

17 THE WITNESS: The inference must be that this is in Sector

18 Sarajevo. Now, clearly, it is a serious incident, as Mr. Milosevic points

19 out. It is an attack initiated by Bosnian government forces. Three Serb

20 soldiers are killed, one Bosnian, and so on. I don't contest that at all.

21 I'm sure this is an accurate reflection of a serious incident. But it is

22 in no way comparable to the assault which was taking place at that time on

23 the UN safe area of Gorazde. I mean, this talks about four deaths. How

24 many people do you think were killed in Gorazde? I mean, this is one

25 single incident in Sector Sarajevo, which I don't deny for a moment.

1 JUDGE MAY: We will exhibit that document. We will give it the

2 second -- the first exhibit, Defence exhibit, will be the UNPROFOR

3 document referred to earlier, of the 11th of May, referring to the

4 Washington Post article inquiry. That will get the first number.

5 THE REGISTRAR: It's Defence Exhibit 148, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MAY: And the recently exhibited document?

7 THE REGISTRAR: It's Defence Exhibit 149.

8 JUDGE MAY: It's half past 10.00. We're going to adjourn now.

9 The accused has another 25 or so minutes left.

10 Dr. Williams, would you have a word with Mr. Groome just so you

11 can explain your position to him. There will need to be some further

12 examination, I anticipate.

13 Have the amici any questions?

14 MR. KAY: Yes. I could anticipate 15 minutes.

15 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

16 Mr. Groome, would you please have a word with the witness. And we

17 need to work out a timetable. We have the note about his attending a

18 meeting. Perhaps you could see with him whether it's possible of him to

19 stay or whether he must go, in which case whether we could finish or not

20 in time, what time he needs to go --

21 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MAY: -- or whether he could stay in fact.

23 Dr. Williams, I'm -- if you have an important matter to deal with,

24 of course you must -- you must go. And you will have our permission. But

25 it may mean your having to come back. That's the problem.

1 THE WITNESS: Very good. I'll do my very best to see if I can

2 stay today.

3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

4 JUDGE MAY: We're told there is a flight that's booked already,

5 but perhaps that can be looked at. Thank you very much.

6 Twenty minutes.

7 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Groome, you've -- you've resolved the

10 situation, I understand?

11 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, we have made a reservation on a 3.00

12 flight for Dr. Williams. I believe I only have five minutes of

13 re-examination. And I believe, from what I recall of what Dr. Williams

14 said about the meeting, it's a rather important meeting. So if it's

15 possible for him to make the 1.00 flight, I think that would be

16 appreciated.

17 JUDGE MAY: So what time does he have to leave?

18 MR. GROOME: They tell me he'd have to leave at quarter to 12.00

19 but I think perhaps even 12.00 we may be able to get him on the plane.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'm very sorry, Mr. May, that

22 many questions will remain unanswered. But I'll try and put at least a

23 few of them.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Now, a moment ago I showed you the protest sent by a colonel of

1 UNPROFOR to the Muslim side. However, the point of my question is this:

2 In view of the fact that you personally, by virtue of the office you held,

3 that of a man who provided the whole world with information as to what was

4 going on, did you about those violations and generally about the conduct

5 of the Muslim side inform the world, as you did -- as you informed it

6 about the conduct of the Serb side? Can you say of yourself that you did

7 indeed do that, that you did it in an unbiased way and - how shall I say

8 this - on a footing of equality, that you did it equally for both sides?

9 A. Yes, I can. I think I can --

10 Q. Evenhandedly?

11 A. Yes, I can. I believe I can say that unequivocally the incident

12 that you referred to, for example, I am sure that my press spokesman in

13 Sarajevo would have spoken to and indeed possibly released that document

14 that you brought to my attention.

15 Q. Mr. Williams, I hope you know that General Michael Rose has

16 published a book and the title of the book is: "The Mission in Bosnia."

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I don't suppose you're questioning either his stature or the fact

19 that he, as an honourable man, endeavoured to show the situation

20 objectively.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And he says, for example, in that book of his, that is the Serbian

23 translation on page 297 of the book: "The air force offensive of NATO was

24 not a signal only to the Serbs that the peace mission had been rejected

25 and that the West was preparing to apply a higher degree of force than

1 before, it was also directed to winning over internal political forces in

2 America for a resolution to the conflict by war."

3 Now, was that, among other things, the result and consequence of a

4 distorted picture and unobjective information as to what was actually

5 going on? Just give me a yes or no answer, please.

6 A. I couldn't possibly give you a yes or no answer to -- to that

7 question. It's very unclear to me what the question is, to begin with.

8 I'm afraid I must ask for it to be formulated in a way that --

9 JUDGE MAY: Let's start with this: We've got the quotation from

10 the book. Do you think you can comment on the quotation as it is -- as it

11 is on the screen or not?

12 THE WITNESS: Well, the book, as Your Honour will know, is a

13 memoir written some years after the conflict. I mean, it is true that the

14 West, by which one means NATO, became more engaged from 1994 onwards. I

15 would remind the Court that it was a NATO ultimatum in February 1994 which

16 brought about a cease-fire in Sarajevo. And important though the talks

17 were that were held in Belgrade in April 1994, it was also the case that

18 there was again a NATO ultimatum. Without it, frankly, I don't believe

19 the Bosnian Serb forces would ever have agreed to a cease-fire. So in

20 that respect, there is some truth in what General Rose says in that

21 observation.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Well, in view of your profession or the office you held at that

24 point in time, and with respect to information, that's what I'm referring

25 to. I'm going to quote from page 333 of the Serbian translation, where it

1 says: "The UN was not able to convince certain important names that too

2 much propaganda would only make the situation on the ground worse. The

3 permanent and uncontrolled publishing of images and pictures of war

4 devastation and unobjective criticism made the situation in Gorazde,

5 Bihac, and Sarajevo more exaggerated, which was designed to up the level

6 of force."

7 Is that what happened? Do you agree with General Rose and his

8 observations?

9 A. Actually, no, I don't agree with that comment at all. In fact, I

10 have --

11 Q. All right, fine. No is answer. Let's move on.

12 JUDGE MAY: The witness must be allowed to answer, you having put

13 that to him.

14 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour. I have always regarded it

15 as absolutely imperative that where conflicts and wars take place it is of

16 great importance that those conflicts are brought to the wider attention

17 of the international community, and I believe the media and the press have

18 a very important role to play in that regard. So no, I don't agree with

19 that statement whatsoever.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Very well. And do you agree with this, something else he says, on

22 page 304: He says: "I was particularly angry with the journalists

23 because of their biasness, lack of objectivity, and the way in which they

24 reported on the events in Bosnia. Most of the comments from journalists

25 from the east coast of the USA during the Gorazde fighting in 1994 did not

1 write about the suffering and difficult economic situations suffered by

2 the population but of the devastated and looted houses. The truth was

3 different, however. Those houses, which they took pictures of, that is to

4 say, the US reconnoitring airplanes during the air attacks on Serbia, were

5 destroyed and devastated mostly in 1992, when the Serbs and the Muslims

6 were struggling for supremacy in town and when the Muslims thwarted back

7 and refuted the Serbs. They were Serb houses, in fact, left without

8 roofs, without window frames and doors, which the Muslims had looted

9 completely and left empty. It was more than obvious that they had not

10 been destroyed that particular year either during the fighting that took

11 place in Gorazde."

12 Now, my question to you is this: Is it possible that during the

13 time of your mission you did not know about that, Mr. Williams?

14 A. Know about what? That there was destruction on the Serb side as

15 well? Of course I was aware of that. I find it difficult to make a

16 comment on the passage you've again quoted from General Rose. I don't

17 think I have anything further to add on that.

18 Q. Well, he says that he was particularly angry with the journalists

19 because of their bias and unobjective reporting, taking one side.

20 JUDGE MAY: In your view, Dr. Williams, when you were in Bosnia

21 undertaking the work, did you find the journalists' reporting on the whole

22 to be biased and one-sided, or can you not say?

23 THE WITNESS: I can pass a judgement on that, Your Honour, and I

24 think I'm qualified to do so. The press corps was very large, very

25 varied. I found on the whole that its assessments were objective. There

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1 were quite a number of journalists whose reporting of the war was

2 absolutely outstanding. Yesterday, for example, we saw a document from

3 the Reuters correspondent Kurt Schork, a distinguished war correspondent

4 who tragically lost his life in the Sierra Leone conflict two or three

5 years ago. General Rose had a difficulty with journalists. He didn't get

6 on very easily with them. The quotation reveals a very subjective

7 assessment, I believe.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Very well. That is a subjective assessment on the part of General

10 Rose, and you don't agree with it. Fine.

11 Now, do you agree with this, something else he says: "During the

12 previous three years of a bloody civil war, all the protected areas,

13 including Sarajevo, survived and the Serbs did not win control of them,

14 although they could have done, they could have conquered them. Had the

15 Serbs wished to take them over, the state of Bosnia would have ceased to

16 exist. Neither NATO's -- NATO's air force would not have been able to

17 prevent it." Now, do you consider this assessment on the part of the

18 UNPROFOR forces in Bosnia-Herzegovina to be correct or not? And it does

19 go against the grain of what you're saying, in fact.

20 A. Well, I think the first part of the statement you read is correct.

21 I think the Bosnian Serb forces quite possibly could have overrun most of

22 the declared safe areas. Certainly I've referred earlier in my testimony

23 to the disproportional -- disproportionality between the two sides to the

24 conflict, the fact that the Bosnian Serbs had so much heavy weaponry.

25 With regard to the second part of General Rose's statement, I

1 don't agree at all. NATO forces, I believe, could have intervened

2 forcefully at any juncture and could have stopped that assault.

3 Q. Very well. I just indicated and pointed to the differences

4 between what you say and what the UNPROFOR commander of the day, Sir

5 Michael Rose, says.

6 Now, as you said that supplies were made impossible, that it was

7 impossible to bring in supplies, and this because of the conduct of the

8 Serb side, he says on that same page: "Nonetheless, the Serbs never

9 stopped convoys from coming in in order to merit a response from UNPROFOR

10 on a military level, even at the time when the Serbs were said to stifle

11 Sarajevo and strangle it, and the warehouses -- food warehouses in town

12 were not completely depleted. Gas and water was brought in in smaller

13 quantities, as was electricity. There was sufficient quantities of

14 electricity as well." Would that be correct or not, or is General Rose

15 speaking untruths?

16 A. It's very difficult for me again, taking a passage out of context,

17 not knowing what he's -- the time period he's referring to. But there was

18 sufficient documentation yesterday, and I refer in particular to the --

19 I'm afraid I can't recall the tab reference now -- the letter from

20 Mr. Eagleton, the senior UN civilian official in Sarajevo, of September

21 the 15th, where he complains about the fact that all gas supplies to the

22 city have been closed by the Bosnian Serbs. On a sort of anecdotal and

23 subjective level, I can tell the Court that on many visits to Sarajevo it

24 was abundantly clear there was no water, electricity, or gas. I mean,

25 that was simply a fact.

1 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the exhibit Dr. Williams has referred to

2 is tab 24.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Williams, you said you don't know -- didn't know to which

5 period that referred to. I quoted General Rose, who says, "Not even in

6 1994, when the Serbs were accused of strangling Sarajevo, the warehouses

7 in town had not been depleted." So it refers to this critical year of

8 1994.

9 And do you agree with the following assertion, which says: "In

10 1994, according to American sources, the number of persons killed, mostly

11 soldiers, did not exceed 3.000, which was far below the widespread rumours

12 that were going around as to a large-scale genocide which was rampant in

13 the country, which many propaganda people tend to stress"? Now, is

14 that --

15 JUDGE MAY: What are you -- "in 1994 the number of persons

16 killed" - wait a moment - "mostly soldiers did not exceed 3.000." What

17 area does that refer to?

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am referring to Bosnia-Herzegovina

19 as a whole, and this is from Michael Rose's comments at the end of his

20 book, on page 309 in the epilogue where he says, "According to US sources,

21 the number of soldiers killed did not exceed 3.000, which was far below

22 the widespread rumours that were being propagated about a large-scale

23 genocide."

24 So that's what I'm talking about. I'm saying what he claims for

25 1994.

1 THE WITNESS: It's difficult for me to comment on that figure. I

2 would point out that General Rose's statement refers only to the number of

3 soldiers killed. It does not say anything about the number of civilians

4 killed in 1994, which I think is -- is difficult to make an assessment of.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. On the contrary. What he says is that a total of 3.000, mostly

7 soldiers - 3.000 and mostly soldiers. So that refers to civilians as

8 well, Mr. Williams. I hope that's clear to you, and it's evident from the

9 quotation.

10 Now, as you yourself dealt with information and propaganda - and

11 I'm going to finish quoting from General Rose's book with this next

12 question - he describes the visit by General John Galvin, the special

13 advisor to President Clinton who arrived in Sarajevo, and I'm going to

14 read out this passage, it's page 107 of his book. And I'm going to read

15 out in detail.

16 "It was early morning," he says, "when we found ourselves near

17 Tuzla. Our escort, a lady from the American Embassy, suddenly pointed to

18 the villages that had been burnt down and houses burnt down that could be

19 seen on Mount Zvijezda and she said to Galvin in a spiteful voice,

20 'Take a look at what those Serb criminals have done.' Every time Simeon

21 Shadbolt [phoen] had to explain to Galvin why a mosque had been --"

22 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop this. What is the connection with

23 the witness? This is a visit by an American general to Tuzla. And so far

24 there have been references to people from the American Embassy. There is

25 no connection that I can see to the witness. Now, what -- what is the

1 connection?

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm talking about propaganda. And

3 what I want to ask Mr. Williams is whether he agrees with what General

4 Rose writes. So this particular event, it's a very brief reference, and I

5 would have concluded it had you not interrupted me.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. "He had to explain to Galvin why a mosque had remained standing

8 whereas all the churches had been destroyed, because it was quite obvious

9 that the Muslim forces were responsible for ethnic cleansing in that area

10 of Bosnia. It was clear to Galvin too that this woman from the embassy,

11 an employee of the state department --"

12 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop this. It seems to be pointless.

13 The witness can comment on some of the things which General Rose

14 has said in his book, some of them, which he knows about. He can't

15 possibly comment on this visit.

16 But what you can answer was the point that the accused made at the

17 very beginning. You yourself dealt with information propaganda. Is that

18 a fair characterisation of your work, as you saw it?

19 THE WITNESS: I don't accept that characterisation, Your Honour.

20 I and officials who worked with me strived as best as we could to present

21 an objective assessment to the outside world of the conflict.

22 Mr. Milosevic referred earlier to the international press corps in

23 Sarajevo. You would find, if you look back on newspapers like the

24 Washington Post and the New York Times, for example, that they often

25 criticised the UN because they believed that it strove too far for

1 objectivity and it was accused of bias towards the Muslim side or towards

2 the Bosnian government side on many occasions.

3 We did have difficulties, and frankly one of those biggest

4 difficulties was the absence of information about the Bosnian Serb side,

5 about the Republika Srpska. And that was because of the prohibition by

6 the Bosnian Serb authorities on the UN and on the international press

7 corps working in their -- the areas in which they administered.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Well, I just quoted examples, but let's not waste time.

10 Mr. Groome provided us here with a document, and you spoke about

11 the -- where non-Serbs were expelled from the Bijeljina region, and the

12 6th of September, 1994, is the date, sent to Mr. Akashi and Kofi Annan --

13 from Akashi to Kofi Annan, in fact. And it says if following: "At the

14 time, Dr. Karadzic attributed the problem to the criminals and undertook

15 to replace the chief of police, [In English] due to what he acknowledged

16 was a very unsatisfactory situation in the area with respect to security

17 and crime."

18 [Interpretation] And then he goes on to say -- Akashi goes on to

19 say, "I have subsequently learned that the chief of police has indeed been

20 replaced."

21 JUDGE MAY: What tab number are we on?

22 Mr. Milosevic, would you in future take a note of the tab numbers,

23 because it's impossible to have a cross-examination without it.

24 MR. GROOME: I believe it's tab 27, Your Honour.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. The last paragraph says, when it says that he learnt that the

2 chief of police really had been replaced. And then at the end he say,

3 "Today I telephoned Dr. Karadzic to ensure that he was aware of the events

4 around Bijeljina and to express our strong concern. [In English]

5 Dr. Karadzic has taken measures to identify, arrest, and prosecute those

6 responsible."

7 [Interpretation] Therefore, does this document show that Mr. --

8 where Mr. Akashi says that the chief of police had indeed been replaced,

9 that it was such chaos and that it wasn't possible for the leadership of

10 Republika Srpska to keep everything under its control, that measures were

11 taken to protect the population, who were non-Serbs and who were exposed

12 to this kind of pressure, crimes, and so on, or whatever you like to say

13 or call all this, and that as you can see from this, Karadzic did

14 intervene in order to protect them? Is that clear and obvious or not, Mr.

15 Williams? From the document, from the document sent by Mr. Akashi.

16 A. No, I don't believe it's clear. Mr. Akashi hoped that

17 Dr. Karadzic might be taking some measures.

18 But I would refer the Court to another document in this same tab,

19 a letter of the 20th of September, two weeks later, when Mr. Akashi writes

20 again to Dr. Karadzic and says that the expulsions are continuing, that

21 there have been 700 on one single day alone, the date of 17th of

22 September; and Mr. Akashi felt the circumstances were now so serious that

23 he for the first time drew Dr. Karadzic's attention to the possibility

24 that these actions might be the subject of investigation by this very

25 court.

1 Q. All I wanted was to have your comments on the document, and you

2 can see that Karadzic ascribes this to criminals because he didn't replace

3 the chief of police and takes energetic measures to take into custody and

4 send people to trial who were the perpetrators of acts of this kind.

5 Isn't that what this document by Mr. Akashi says?

6 A. I think Mr. Akashi hoped that Dr. Karadzic would take measures.

7 It is clear that a single police officer could not have been responsible

8 for the expulsion of 5.000 persons during the period we are talking about,

9 September 1994. Moreover, perhaps a police officer was removed or not.

10 What is clear is that no charges or misconduct or anything were ever

11 pressed against any officer.

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, this must be your last question.

13 You've gone beyond your time. But you can ask one more.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I really don't know what to

15 say. I was going to comment the meeting in Karadjordjevo with Akashi, for

16 which he says we discussed in an informal setting three main items, and so

17 on.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. However, if I don't have the possibility of going into that, then,

20 Mr. Williams, I have a letter by Mr. Akashi sent to me on the 29th of

21 December, 1994, and I'm just going to ask you something with respect to

22 the first paragraph. It says: [In English] "Dear Mr. President, I've

23 come to the end of my first year as a Special Representative of the

24 Secretary-General for the former Yugoslavia. I would like to express my

25 warmest appreciation to you for your fine cooperation and your continued

1 efforts to resolve the terrible crisis in this beautiful land."

2 [Interpretation] I don't want to read any further, but this is a letter by

3 Mr. Akashi sent to me. You can take a look at it if you like, Mr. May, or

4 not, as you wish.

5 Now, Mr. Williams, does this confirm and completely coincide with

6 the context of the explanations given of the activities which, for

7 example, led to a solution to the problem of Gorazde or to solving the

8 other problems that existed? And I had in mind the question linked to

9 Krajina and other parts where what was the activity of Serbia and my own

10 personal actions and as they related to achieving peace first and

11 foremost. And I've read out just the first sentence of that passage.

12 A. Yes, I can see the letter now. Yes. I remind you and the Court

13 that the agreement reached in Belgrade in April 1994 had six points, only

14 one of which the -- namely, the cease-fire was -- was implemented. I

15 mean, Mr. Akashi's letter is a letter of greetings for the -- for the new

16 year, and I think, you know, it has to be seen in the context of diplomacy

17 and of his wish that this terrible conflict could be brought to an early

18 end, and clearly he saw you as playing a key role in that. I think that

19 is undeniable.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll give that the next exhibit number.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May by allowed to ask one more

22 question, please, Mr. May?

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes, you can. But we'll give this an exhibit number

24 first.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit 150, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE MAY: You can ask one more question.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. You're a professional, Mr. Williams, and you said during the

4 examination-in-chief that the Serbs did not make any difference, did not

5 differentiate or did not succeed in doing so - I don't know whether I've

6 noted it correctly - between civilian and military targets. Is that what

7 you said?

8 A. I believe I said words to that effect, yes.

9 Q. All right, then, please. When you bear in mind the experiences

10 gained with the NATO aggression against Yugoslavia, when on several

11 occasions it was civilian targets that were targeted, did NATO distinguish

12 or make a difference between civilian and military targets?

13 JUDGE MAY: That's not a matter for the witness. That's just a

14 comment we'll have to consider in due course.

15 Yes, Mr. Kay.

16 Questioned by Mr. Kay:

17 Q. Dr. Williams, first of all, just an overview from the last-but-one

18 question that you were asked concerning the influence of Mr. Milosevic.

19 The picture you have given is of the parties on occasion - and by that I

20 mean the Bosnian Serb leadership - assembling in Belgrade periodically

21 before Mr. Milosevic as president of the Republic of Serbia as a bid for

22 him to use his best endeavours to exert political pressure on the Bosnian

23 Serb leadership. Is that right as a picture?

24 A. Yes, I think it is. One thing I would point out: I think during

25 the period when I was an official in the former Yugoslavia, I think the --

1 the meetings that we've been talking about in April 1994, I think that was

2 probably the only occasion when the entire Bosnian Serb leadership were

3 brought together with President Milosevic and the UN. I mean, normally

4 these meetings were handled on a bilateral level in Pale or, on one

5 occasion, in Geneva. But I think the gist of what you've said is correct.

6 Q. Not surprising in a way, as Serbia was a political power in the

7 region with which you were dealing.

8 A. Indeed.

9 Q. And just moving on from that, as we've seen through the obviously

10 limited documents that you've produced, that there was a great deal, and

11 in fact the majority of it, was bilateral negotiations direct with -- with

12 Pale. And by that we mean Dr. Karadzic and/or General Mladic.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And your assessment of General Mladic was that he had firm control

15 over his forces and was in possession of a disciplined military structure.

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 Q. Over which he exercised control in a firm and decisive manner.

18 A. That's fair.

19 Q. And in the documents that you have produced, either statements or

20 references and notes that you have made during your period of involvement,

21 you were able to see on many occasions intemperate, otherwise called

22 hot-headed, responses by him to situations of the slightest provocation by

23 the other side.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. There's a quote somewhere by you that he couldn't believe that the

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1 Muslims would have the temerity to fire on Serb forces and was going to

2 provide a damaging response to any such provocation.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In your dealings with the other side, no doubt you were aware as

5 well that any provocation, however slight, was able to engender such a

6 disproportionate response by him.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. It was a feature of the conflict that was understood and it was a

9 feature that could be used for political advantage by the other side; and

10 by that, I mean the other side to the General Mladic.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. There is also a record by you of the meeting in Belgrade at which

13 he was present, at which the threat of NATO airstrikes was being used

14 against the Bosnian Serbs, and he spontaneously uttered, "You'd better

15 hold to your word. If there is NATO bombing, we will attack Muslims and

16 you."

17 A. That's correct. That was on the Saturday morning of the 23rd of

18 April. I recall it very vividly. It was about 11.00 in the morning,

19 towards the end of the meeting.

20 Q. The majority of your dealings being with the Bosnian Serbs, you

21 were turning to President Milosevic in situations such as those for him to

22 try and bring his influence to bear upon at least that party to the

23 conflict.

24 A. That's a correct assessment.

25 Q. It was a situation that you recognised he could bring influence

1 but not control.

2 A. He could certainly bring influence to bear. Yes, indeed.

3 Q. But not control. What was happening in Bosnia-Herzegovina was

4 under the control of Karadzic and Mladic.

5 A. They were the political leadership -- sorry, Dr. Karadzic was

6 the -- the chief political leader of the Bosnian Serbs; that is correct.

7 General Mladic was the commander of the VRS, the Bosnian Serb army, which

8 had, I believe, very close ties to the Yugoslav army.

9 Q. If we can look a little bit at one or two matters very, very

10 briefly. Tab 34, paragraph 11, the meeting by Mr. de Mello on the 11th of

11 August, 1994, with President Milosevic. This is the meeting in which the

12 statement was made about Brazil and the borders as it was part of the

13 process to try and secure the borders because of the imposition of

14 sanctions. Those sanctions were being viewed, certainly from your

15 position, as something that the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was taking

16 seriously against the Bosnian Serbian leadership.

17 A. Yes. I mean, they were a welcome measure. They'd been imposed by

18 Mr. Milosevic, if I recall, on the 4th of August. So it was early days at

19 this stage, 11th of August, to make any assessment of how effective they

20 were, of course.

21 Q. A device whereby he was trying to influence the Bosnian Serb

22 leadership to take a more constructive role in the peace process.

23 A. Yes. It was an -- in particular, it was to try and bring them to

24 agree to the contact group peace plan for Bosnia.

25 Q. This was part of a series of engagements to try and restrain them

1 and bring them into line with his way of thinking in relation to the peace

2 process.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I'm just looking at paragraph 11 of this document, where President

5 Milosevic assured that he had exerted and would continue to exercise his

6 influence in support of the negotiating process.

7 A. Well, that's what he said, yes.

8 Q. Yes. And he also said, in conclusion, in paragraph 13, "We have

9 made the choice for peace."

10 A. That's his statement, yes.

11 Q. Yes. It's for others to judge whether that is right or wrong.

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. But that is the context of those remarks.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I want to go back a bit to tab 4, a slightly earlier stage at this

16 stage, the 13th of April, 1994, the meeting with President Milosevic in

17 Belgrade. And it was in paragraph 2 that the Prosecution directed your

18 attention to a statement by President Milosevic concerning the Serb attack

19 on Gorazde.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And the remarks made by him. I think you will agree with this,

22 that he was not on the ground, so to speak, in Gorazde at that time in

23 April of 1994.

24 A. No. But I would expect President Milosevic to have been very,

25 very well informed of events. I remind the Court that Gorazde is about 30

1 minutes' drive from the Serbian border.

2 Q. And it's "information," which is the key word and the next

3 question I was going to ask you about. Information for his purposes could

4 just as much come from Radovan Karadzic and General Mladic as anybody

5 else.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And any statement made by him may not be his own assessment in the

8 sense of what he has seen and heard but may be on the basis of information

9 that was given to him.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And when you're going through these political negotiations and

12 processes that you have described, that is often something that you are up

13 against.

14 A. Yes, of course. Yes.

15 Q. Ensuring that the party you're negotiating with has a brief, so to

16 speak, that comes from a disinterested perspective as you would see

17 yourself.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. But what was ever -- whatever was said in paragraph 2 thereafter,

20 there is no doubt that President Milosevic was emphasising the need for

21 peace and for a solution of the conflict. We can see in paragraph 4:

22 "President Milosevic stressed that in his view the only reasonable

23 approach towards peace is to seek the general cessation of hostilities."

24 A. Yes, that was his view. Yes.

25 Q. And that was a series of manoeuvres that took place thereafter

1 involving your parties, so to speak, and him and others in a bid to get

2 the peace process on the road.

3 A. [No audible response]

4 Q. A number of initiatives were taken up. We've no need to go into

5 that detail. We don't have time. But this was a part of that process.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. We can see at paragraph 6, at this stage he was of the view, and

8 no doubt you were of the view, that there was a strained relationship

9 between the international community and the Bosnian Serb leadership.

10 A. Very much so. Very much so. And they were holding up our

11 convoys, preventing our deployment in Gorazde. The relationship was very

12 strained.

13 Q. And the bid was afoot thereafter to try and normalise that as much

14 as possible, to try and get them on side in relation to what they -- their

15 acts and conduct.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. If we move from this document, which is of the 13th of April, and

18 go to tab 16, which is the 23rd of April. I just want to look at the

19 first page, because it's a -- a point there, 23rd of April, 1994. This is

20 the page that comes after your press statement, from Mr. Akashi to Kofi

21 Annan. We see it seems to be typed in "as well as with President

22 Milosevic" in paragraph 1, concerning the meeting.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Whoever was typing this was -- was presenting it really as a copy

25 of the record of their meeting in Belgrade with Dr. Karadzic and General

1 Mladic initially, and then as an afterthought, well, President Milosevic

2 was there. But again, he was being used as a means of -- of influence, if

3 possible, upon these two gentlemen.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. The meeting opens up with President Milosevic presenting a

6 proposed agenda focussing on the normalisation of relations between

7 UNPROFOR, the issue we've just referred to, the solution to the Gorazde

8 crisis, and the cessation of hostilities. It's Dr. Karadzic thereafter

9 who invents or produces a number of reasons in contradiction to those

10 proposals by President Milosevic --

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. -- if we read the content of this. We don't have a great deal of

13 time, I make that as a general point, but it's quite clear that all sorts

14 of reasons come out presented by him as to why it can't work, what he

15 wants, and what his demands are.

16 A. Yes, I'd accept that. Yes.

17 Q. And eventually, after that meeting - if we go to tab 17 - that

18 date of the 25th of April, 1994, we see here the code cable which is part

19 thereafter of the initiation of a cease-fire arrangement around Gorazde

20 and an attempt to normalise relations. Is that right?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. The breaches that occur thereafter -- and we look at tab 18.

23 After a few days there were breaches and the situation deteriorated. And

24 I won't say it was back to place 1, but it was well on the way of -- of

25 going backwards again.

1 Those points and objections were being made to Dr. Karadzic as for

2 what was going on and happening in relation to those failures.

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. We've principally dealt with the Bosnian Serbs. Concurrently

5 there was also the issue concerning Martic and Babic in the Krajina. And

6 I have a letter here that was sent to President Milosevic by Mr. Akashi,

7 dated the 7th of December, 1994.

8 And perhaps you could take a brief look at it, as it will be the

9 last point I make.

10 MR. KAY: One for Their Honours, the Prosecution, and the

11 Registry. It's a document from the Rule 68 material, Your Honour, dated

12 the 7th of December, 1994.

13 Q. Could you just identify it as being Mr. Akashi's signature and his

14 letter; you may even remember it.

15 A. Yes, I think I do remember this. Yes.

16 Q. I've marked the first two paragraphs --

17 A. Yeah.

18 Q. -- because that's all we're going to deal with, so that our

19 attention is drawn to them.

20 Again, really a replicated role of President Milosevic being asked

21 to use his influence upon Martic, whereas -- is that right? If you could

22 just -- you were nodding your head.

23 A. Sorry. Yes. I think that Mr. Akashi believed that Mr. Milosevic

24 could exercise quite considerable influence over Mr. Martic. You will

25 recall in my testimony yesterday I think we referred to elections in the

1 Krajina Serb Republic in January 1994, where clearly Mr. Martic was seen

2 as Mr. Milosevic's preferred candidate in those elections. So our

3 assessment was that Mr. Milosevic could exercise considerable influence

4 with Mr. Martic.

5 Q. But this has to be put into the context of a political power

6 struggle between Babic, Dr. Babic, and Mr. Martic, and Dr. Babic in fact

7 wresting the political initiative away from Mr. Martic. Is that right?

8 A. Yes, he didn't wrest the initiative completely away but he

9 controlled the local parliamentary assembly and was a powerful figure.

10 Q. And he was regarded as the more extreme of the two.

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. And he was regarded as being out of President Milosevic's control.

13 A. I think that's a fair assessment, yes.

14 Q. And at that time, he had more influence than Mr. Martic.

15 A. Well, Martic was actually formerly president of the Serb Republic

16 in Croatia and the Krajina. I mean, there is a matter of sort of debate

17 as to their relative degrees of influence, but I agree with most of what

18 you're arguing, yes.

19 Q. He'd been undermined by Babic politically, Babic having proved

20 himself an adept and cunning political operator.

21 A. I think that's fair.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. KAY: I have no further questions.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome, given the constraints of time.

25 MR. GROOME: I'll be brief, Your Honour.

1 Re-examined by Mr. Groome:

2 Q. Dr. Williams, there's been some discussion about this general

3 cessation of hostilities that Mr. Milosevic was advocating in 1994. This

4 was, of course, after the major ethnic -- ethnic cleansing campaigns of

5 1992. My question to you is: Had there been a general cessation of

6 hostilities -- had that been adopted at this stage and the current

7 confrontation lines been frozen as territorial boundaries, would one side

8 or another have gained a significant advantage in having that happen?

9 A. Well, I think yes. I think the Bosnian Serb authorities would

10 have gained a very distinct advantage if a cease-fire was based on the

11 lines of confrontation. I mean, as the Court will be aware, three of the

12 enclaves were completely surrounded by the Bosnian Serb forces - Gorazde,

13 Zepa, and Srebrenica - and Sarajevo itself was besieged. So a cease-fire

14 on those lines would have been self-evidently disadvantageous to the

15 Bosnian government.

16 Q. The accused in his questions to you has characterised his role in

17 the negotiations surrounding Gorazde as simply that of an intermediary

18 between the Bosnian Serb leadership and the UN mission -- a disinterested

19 peacemaker, as it were. I want to draw your attention once again to tab 4

20 of Prosecution Exhibit 470. The portion I'm going to ask you to look at

21 is being displayed on the television monitors in the courtroom and is

22 paragraph 5. I'm going to read you the first sentence of that.

23 And it says: "President Milosevic emphasised that the current

24 economic sanctions on Serbia should be lifted within the context of a

25 cessation of hostilities." My question to you is: Did Mr. Milosevic

1 introduce the connection between the sanctions that were imposed on Serbia

2 and the cessation of hostilities in Bosnia?

3 A. Yes, he did. I think very, very clearly in that meeting on the

4 13th of April. So in that sense, I mean, clearly he was not a

5 disinterested intermediary.

6 Q. Was this the only occasion in which he linked the two, the

7 sanctions with cessation of hostilities in -- or peace in Bosnia?

8 A. I don't -- I don't believe it was the only occasion, but I can't

9 off the top of my head cite directly a date and place for another

10 occasion.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, the question is an unfair

13 one because in the documents one can see that I am talking about the

14 necessity of doing away with sanctions, in view of our constant policy of

15 peace. And that would be --

16 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Very well. It's not an improper

17 question. You can argue the point in due course.

18 Yes, Mr. Groome.

19 MR. GROOME:

20 Q. Now, during the time that Mr. Milosevic was participating in

21 negotiations - and I'm asking you to consider all negotiations, not simply

22 the ones related to Gorazde - were there still the continuing violations

23 of the closed border between Serbia and Bosnia, a border which as we saw

24 in Prosecution tab 34, Mr. Milosevic had given his personal assurance that

25 it had been hermetically sealed?

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13 English transcripts.

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1 A. Yes. There were documented violations of that border which are

2 clearly documented.

3 Q. And my last question to you is: Why was it Mr. Milosevic whose

4 assistance was sought and not the then-president, federal president,

5 Lilic, or the foreign minister, both Serbs and both perhaps more obvious

6 and logical choices, if what was sought was an intermediary or facilitator

7 in these negotiations?

8 A. Because it -- whilst Mr. Milosevic may well have been a

9 facilitator, he wasn't an intermediary. It was clearly -- clear that he

10 was a dominant political figure in Serbia and had profound influence on

11 the Bosnian Serb political authorities but also on their military

12 authorities. The other individuals you referred to, Foreign Minister

13 Jovanovic and President Lilic, had -- were thought and I believe assessed

14 correctly not to have any influence on events in Bosnia.

15 MR. GROOME: I have no further questions.

16 JUDGE MAY: Dr. Williams, that concludes your evidence. Thank you

17 for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

18 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE MAY: And we've got this -- we've got the document which was

20 put to the witness by the amici. That can have a exhibit number.

21 Do you want to have it exhibited, insofar as you can?

22 MR. KAY: Yes, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE MAY: It better have a C number.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Chamber Exhibit Number 7, Your Honour.

25 [The witness withdrew]

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Nice, a problem arose about this last

2 witness, about his flight, which it may be that he'll miss. I don't have

3 to tell you. It's more satisfactory if we know from the beginning the

4 times, more satisfactory if witnesses are -- it's explained to them that

5 they may have to remain here longer. We cannot guarantee a precise time.

6 It will depend on how long the evidence takes.

7 MR. NICE: Your Honour, all those points will be taken into

8 consideration so far as we can. We do our best to accommodate all

9 interests. We can only forecast for witnesses the approximate time to be

10 allowed in cross-examination, and we are under some constraints, given

11 that there's not a limitless ability to keep people here and to move them

12 backwards and forwards.

13 Indeed, I was going to come to that, if I may, on an associated or

14 nearly associated administrative matter. Next week we are starting

15 with -- we're hoping to deal with several 92 bis witnesses who are

16 essentially only going to be cross-examined. Now, those -- they're here

17 for cross-examination, crime-base witnesses. Those who organise the

18 movements of witnesses and who have to cover the cost of bringing them

19 here and keeping them here are very concerned that we shouldn't have too

20 many with the risk of them having to be sent back. We are, of course,

21 very concerned that we shouldn't have too few, with the prospect of

22 available court time not being fully used.

23 In the Kosovo section of the trial, a pattern developed whereby a

24 particular amount of time was characteristically granted to the accused

25 should he want to cross-examine 92 bis witnesses. Generally he used all

1 the time available to him, although not always. And it was possible to

2 make a reasonable estimate of how many such witnesses we could fit in a

3 particular day.

4 Now, it may be, in light of his greater experience now in

5 cross-examining that he will be able to be more concise in his

6 cross-examining of these witnesses. It may be that other considerations

7 will lead to different times being allowed to him by the Chamber. But we

8 would be assisted if any indication could be given to this, perhaps if not

9 today, tomorrow, as to how much at the most cross-examination time is

10 likely to be afforded per witness in order that we can get the right

11 number of witnesses here but not waste money and resources.

12 Obviously were the accused in any position to indicate that there

13 are witnesses whom he will not wish to cross-examine at all or much, we

14 would be considerably assisted because that will enable us to bring more

15 witnesses in than otherwise.

16 JUDGE MAY: Just one moment.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

18 JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry, what was said?

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I wish to say that this

20 insistence of Mr. Nice's obviously has to do with shortening the time made

21 available to me. This is constant practice here, shortening the time

22 given to me.

23 For example, the witness who's just finished, although you measure

24 the time that Mr. Groome had with him and then you compare it to the time

25 given to me, he presented an entire pile of documents here, and I actually

1 could not even comment upon them or even put a question with regard to

2 these documents. So from the point of view of the principle of fairness

3 as such, my rights are being infringed upon all the time as far as

4 cross-examination is concerned.

5 And if Mr. Nice insists on having these rights curbed even

6 further, this brings us to an absurdity. Does any kind of

7 cross-examination then have any point whatsoever?

8 JUDGE MAY: You were allowed, with the last witness, longer than

9 the Prosecution, substantially longer. You had every opportunity to put

10 the documents to him. You chose not to take it. You chose, as always, to

11 argue with the witness about some fairly irrelevant matters.

12 Now, of course we have in mind your rights to cross-examine when

13 w