1 Thursday, 12 June 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome.

6 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution calls Mr. Osman Selak.

7 Your Honour, while we're awaiting the arrival of the witness, the

8 Prosecution will be tendering three exhibits through Mr. Selak, the first

9 being transcripts from the Brdjanin and Talic case and Tadic case in which

10 he testified and which is the subject of an order from this Chamber.

11 Secondly --

12 JUDGE MAY: Let's deal with them one at a time.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the transcript is Prosecution Exhibit

14 462.

15 MR. GROOME: The next exhibit, Your Honour, is a set of exhibits,

16 76 tabs, which are the exhibits that were tendered in the course of the

17 testimony of this witness during those two trials. They are in two

18 binders but consecutively numbered tab numbers 1 through 76.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes. Let's give them a number first and then

20 we'll swear the witness and then we'll hear any objections.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, Prosecution Exhibit 463.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

1 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

2 WITNESS: OSMAN SELAK

3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kay.

5 MR. KAY: It was an issue of clarification concerning the

6 transcripts. The Court will remember the order in which we pared down the

7 transcripts from the original trial.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

9 MR. KAY: I take it that part of exhibit which makes up 462 will

10 be the extracted portions of the transcript.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

12 MR. GROOME: And finally, Your Honour, there is a binder with new

13 exhibits that we will seek to tender through this witness.

14 THE REGISTRAR: That's Prosecution Exhibit 464.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes

16 Examined by Mr. Groome:

17 Q. Sir, I'd ask you to begin your testimony before the Chamber by

18 telling us your name.

19 A. My name is Osman Selak.

20 Q. I'd ask that we begin by having you take a look at Prosecution

21 Exhibit 464, tab 1, and sir, I ask you, is this a summary of your

22 educational and professional background made after you arrived here at The

23 Hague with the assistance of members of the OTP staff?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And is that your initials on the bottom of the exhibit?

1 A. Yes, that is my signature.

2 Q. And are you willing to answer additional questions with respect to

3 your qualifications?

4 A. Yes, I am.

5 Q. Can you tell us what was the highest rank that you achieved in the

6 JNA?

7 A. The highest rank was commander of the logistics base. And in

8 March 1992, head of the department for cooperation with the peacekeeping

9 operations of the United Nations in Bosnian Krajina. After that, I was

10 replaced because I was considered politically unsuitable.

11 Q. How many men did you command, have under your command during the

12 time you were a commander?

13 A. The logistics base of which I was the commander after the

14 mobilisation in September 1991 numbered about 2.300 to 2.500 men. The

15 number varied depending on needs. It would be increased with the increase

16 of the zone of responsibility of the logistics base.

17 Q. Now, sir, the Chamber and the accused and the amici all have

18 copies of your prior testimony in the two trials in which you've testified

19 before the International Tribunal. I'm going to just ask you to -- or

20 draw your attention to some particular points that were not covered in

21 your previous testimony and ask you to comment on them. The next thing

22 I'm going to ask you to look at is Prosecution Exhibit 464, tab 2.

23 MR. GROOME: If the usher could hand up the exhibit to the

24 witness.

25 Q. Sir, prior to testifying today have you had an opportunity to read

1 this document?

2 A. No.

3 Q. I'm asking you after you came to The Hague but before testifying

4 here this morning did you have an opportunity to read this document?

5 A. In the OTP, yes.

6 Q. Can you please summarise what that document is for us?

7 A. Here the commander of the republican staff of the Territorial

8 Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina is ordering to the district staffs of the

9 Territorial Defence through the municipal staffs of Territorial Defence to

10 carry out the collection of all weaponry and ammunition from social and

11 public enterprises and to place that weaponry in JNA warehouses.

12 Q. And what is the date of this order or document?

13 A. The 23rd of October, 1990.

14 Q. During your time with the JNA, did you ever receive a copy of this

15 document?

16 A. I did have an order to collect weapons from TO units in my zone of

17 responsibility, which we did. A part of that assignment was carried out

18 by the 5th JNA Corps in the territory of Bosnian Krajina.

19 Q. And during what period of time did you collect or have the

20 responsibility for collecting weapons from the Territorial Defence units?

21 A. From the end of 1990 until the end of 1991 weapons were collected

22 on a continuous basis. I don't know about the corps because it never

23 provided that information, though all the weapons, pursuant to the law,

24 should have been stored in the warehouses of the logistics base. However,

25 what the corps collected was never returned to the base.

1 Q. And were you aware through your subordinates that weapons were in

2 fact being collected from the various Territorial Defence depots in your

3 area of responsibility?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. The next matter that I seek to ask you a question about is

6 something which you testified in great detail in the Brdjanin and Talic

7 case and the Tadic case. I would just note for the record or for the

8 Chamber's benefit the reference in the Brdjanin and Talic transcript for

9 this portion of testimony is transcript number 12.925 to 926.

10 The question I want to ask you simply is: Did there come a time

11 when General Uzelac requested from you that you dispense weapons from your

12 stores that you deemed to be in violation of JNA regulations?

13 A. Yes, General Uzelac required of me that I issue weapons to TO

14 units in Sipovo and Mrkonjic Grad and for the 5th Kozara Brigade on Mount

15 Mrakovica near Prijedor. This was contrary to the law, because weapons

16 could be issued only following an officially declared mobilisation, and

17 this had not been done.

18 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, in the interest of saving time, I will

19 not replay for this witness an intercept that was played during the

20 witness Milan Babic. It was an intercept between -- I'm just informed

21 that it was in fact not finally tendered with Milan Babic. If I may come

22 back to it in a little while.

23 Q. Sir, I'm now going to ask you to take a look at tab 4 of

24 Prosecution Exhibit 464. And, sir, this is a two-part document, a cover

25 letter and then an assessment request or assessment report attached to

1 that cover letter. Can I draw your attention first to the cover letter,

2 and the first thing I would ask you to comment on is the date of the

3 letter. According to your knowledge and experience, the translation has

4 the date as the 20th of September, 1992. Is that date correct?

5 A. On the title page it says March 1992. Let me look at the end

6 where the signature is. Milutin Kukanjac.

7 Could you repeat the date that you indicated?

8 Q. Well, perhaps it's just a translation error. Do you read the date

9 as -- the date on the top of the cover letter as being March 20th?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Sir, I believe you're --

12 A. No. I don't see that. I see the 19th of March under (c).

13 Q. Sir, I believe you're looking at the assessment report. I'm

14 asking you to look at the cover letter first. A copy of that cover letter

15 is on the television screen in front of -- on the --

16 MR. GROOME: If the usher could set up the television screen.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 MR. GROOME: And if the usher could also hand an original to the

19 witness, that's easier.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The date is the 20th of March, 1992,

21 issued by the command of the 2nd Military District, and it is addressed to

22 the General Staff of the armed forces of the SFRY to the Chief of Staff

23 personally. The document was signed by the commander of the 2nd Military

24 District, Colonel General Milutin Kukanjac.

25 MR. GROOME:

1 Q. Now, General Kukanjac, is that a person whose signature you are

2 familiar with?

3 A. Yes, it is. I saw it hundreds of times, and I was even present

4 when he signed some documents.

5 Q. Sir, can I ask you to read for us the last sentence of the cover

6 letter just above the signature.

7 A. "Please return these documents to us after use. For thoroughly

8 justified reasons, we propose that only a very limited number of people be

9 acquainted with these documents. Commander Kukanjac."

10 Q. Now, that letter refers to the assessment which I now ask you to

11 turn your attention to, and could I ask you to look at the first page of

12 the assessment and tell us the date that's printed across the front of the

13 assessment.

14 A. On the first page of the conclusions, the date indicated is the

15 19th of March, 1992, under point (c), if that is what you mean.

16 Q. Yes. I want to now draw your attention to item (5)(f). It's

17 being displayed on the television screen in front of you, and you have the

18 hard copy on the desk in front of you. Can you perhaps for -- take a look

19 at the screen in front of you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could I ask you to read item (f) for us and explain its

22 significance.

23 A. Point (f), "The Yugoslav People's Army has distributed 51.900

24 pieces of weapons (75 percent), and the Serbian Democratic Party, 17.298

25 pieces of weaponry."

1 Q. Are you able to tell from this document where those weapons would

2 have come from?

3 A. The quantity distributed by the Yugoslav People's Army came from

4 the warehouses of various logistics bases and from the surplus of weaponry

5 in corps obtained by the pull-out of units of the JNA from Slovenia and

6 Croatia. And the Serbian Democratic Party received these weapons both

7 from the JNA and from the transports coming from Slovenia and Croatia,

8 sidestepping the logistics bases by stopping corps units and distributing

9 those weapons to the Serbian Democratic Party and to the Territorial

10 Defence units and their volunteers.

11 Q. The section I'd ask to draw your attention to it is the section

12 immediately under that where it says "Experiences." Can you see that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, I'm asking you to skip the first paragraph in that section,

15 and could you read the second and third paragraph of that section?

16 A. Yes. "Some leaders of the Serbian Democratic Party at all levels

17 are, through various channels, requesting weapons from the Yugoslav

18 People's Army and the Ministry of National Defence of Serbia thereby

19 fighting for superiority which has created divisions and dissatisfaction

20 among the people."

21 Q. If you could you continue with the next paragraph.

22 A. "Some SDS leaders are advocating disassociation from the Yugoslav

23 People's Army and the creation of a different army which could have

24 negative consequences for the JNA, especially regarding the plan to

25 replenish its units."

1 Q. The next section I would ask you to draw your attention to and

2 seek your comment is under item number (6), and it is being displayed on

3 the screen in front of you, and if I could draw your attention to the

4 third paragraph from the top that begins "For the Territorial Defence."

5 It's also on the screen in front you, Mr. Selak. It may be easier to --

6 A. Yes. Yes. "For the Territorial Defence, 78.400 weapons and 1.500

7 tons of ammunition."

8 Q. Does that indicate at least in this one instance the quantity of

9 weapons that were distributed to Territorial Defence units?

10 A. Yes. This is for the Territorial Defence, but it was also

11 distributed among the people in apartment buildings, in various streets,

12 villages. Houses were marked with black markers to indicate that they

13 were Serb houses. And I saw this personally in Derventa, and to those

14 houses weapons were distributed.

15 Q. Now, sir, if I can just ask you to summarise the rest of the

16 document, and would it be fair to say that the document goes on to

17 describe other locations in which weapons were distributed to both the

18 Territorial Defence and civilians in the manner you've just described?

19 A. Yes. The district commander clearly indicates the locations, the

20 quantities of weapons and ammunition given to units of the Territorial

21 Defence in those localities. And he even suggests that a part of the

22 reserves from the ammunition depots in the logistics base at Sevarlije

23 near Doboj be relocated to Loznica in Serbia.

24 Q. Sir, if I can now draw your attention to another exhibit. It is

25 tab 6 of Prosecution exhibit 464. If I could ask the usher to return tab

1 number 4. And I would first draw your attention to the signature on this

2 document. Do you recognise the signature?

3 A. Yes, I do recognise the signature of Colonel Bogdan Subotic. We

4 have been comrades for many years. We worked together at the military

5 academy in Banja Luka for 17 years.

6 Q. Can I ask you to summarise the contents of tab 6, Prosecution

7 Exhibit 464 for us?

8 A. The content of this document is that the Minister of Defence of

9 the Army of Republika Srpska is asking the command of the 2nd Military

10 District of the JNA in Sarajevo that active military officers be engaged

11 to bring up to strength the republican and municipal defence of Sarajevo

12 and the Doboj region.

13 Q. What is the date of this document?

14 A. The date is the 27th of April, 1992.

15 Q. And could I ask you to read the first sentence of the document.

16 A. "Pursuant to essential needs for replenishment with the most vital

17 personnel in the Territorial Defence of the Serbian Republic of

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina and in accordance with agreement reached and promises

19 made in Belgrade, we are asking you to assist us as soon as possible with

20 providing senior officers for the following positions." And now the

21 specialties are indicated, and for some people the actual names and ranks

22 are given.

23 Q. Now, sir, you were a Muslim commander in the JNA during the period

24 of this document. My question to you is: Were you ever aware of an

25 agreement and a promise from Belgrade with respect to Territorial Defence

1 units that were in your area of responsibility?

2 A. Such information never reached me because I was not invited to

3 such meetings because I was not suitable in view of the policies being

4 pursued precisely by Belgrade and the Serbian republic or, rather, the

5 Defence Ministry of the Army of the Republic of Srpska.

6 Q. And, sir, why were you considered unsuitable?

7 A. Being a Bosniak, that is a Muslim, they probably felt that I

8 shouldn't hear these things because arming units of the TO and volunteer

9 units applied only to the Serbian people and not to the Bosniak and

10 Croatian peoples in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

11 Q. Thank you. I'm finished with that exhibit.

12 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the next series of nine documents all

13 relate to a similar area and is documents related to weapons received by

14 different Territorial Defence units. In the interests of saving time, the

15 witness has been asked to prepare a summary chart which is tab 7 of

16 Prosecution 464. I will show that to the witness now and with the Court's

17 leave go through each of the documents rather briefly and ask that tab 7

18 and the witness's comments as recorded in that document be used in

19 conjunction with the Court's assessment of these documents or if the Court

20 prefers, I can go into greater detail with live testimony of the witness's

21 perception of each document.

22 JUDGE MAY: No. In the interests of time, the course which you

23 suggest is appropriate.

24 MR. GROOME:

25 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you to look at Prosecution Exhibit 464, tab

1 7. It is a table of a summary of nine different documents. Sir, do you

2 recognise that table?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. Is that a table that you prepared in conjunction with members of

5 the OTP staff earlier this week?

6 A. Yes, it is and I signed each page myself.

7 Q. And did you verify the accuracy of all the comments regarding the

8 documents made in your own language?

9 A. Yes, I verified each one, and I provided comments for each of the

10 documents separately.

11 Q. I'm now going to ask you to comment briefly on some of those

12 documents. I would ask that that table be kept up on your desk in front

13 of you in case you need to refer to it.

14 MR. GROOME: I would ask that the witness be shown tab 8 of

15 Prosecution Exhibit 464.

16 Q. Mr. Selak, keeping in mind that we have some of your comments

17 regarding this particular document, can I just draw your attention to the

18 list of names there? Can you describe what is the purpose of the 10

19 people listed there?

20 A. The purpose of this list of ten names is that these people were

21 participants in the national liberation war during the Second World War,

22 and the president of the Municipal Board of the Association of War

23 Veterans of the National Liberation War requests that these persons be

24 provided with personal weapons.

25 Q. Are you able to tell from the names of these people their

1 ethnicity, and if so, can you describe the respective ethnicities that are

2 represented on this list?

3 A. Yes. Judging by their names, these are all Serbs with the

4 exception of number 5, Faik Avdic, who is a Muslim, a Bosniak.

5 Q. I now ask you to look at Prosecution Exhibit 464, tab 9. This is

6 a series of related documents one dated the 13th of December, 1991, the

7 second dated the 3rd of January, 1992, and the third dated the 8th of

8 January, 1992. Can I draw your attention first to the 13th of December

9 document and ask you, can you summarise what is that document?

10 A. Here the commander of the Territorial Defence of Bosanski Petrovac

11 demands, he doesn't request, he demands these materiel and technical

12 equipment for Bosanski Petrovac and it refers to infantry weapons, and

13 there are 15 different types of weapons listed.

14 Q. And I want to draw your attention to item number 15. It's a

15 request for clothing sets for soldiers, and the number that's requested is

16 1.200. Based upon your experience as the commander of a logistics base,

17 are you able to interpret what that means, the 12.000 uniforms that are

18 requested as opposed to the items that are requested in items 1 through

19 14?

20 A. One thousand, two hundred, yes.

21 Q. Based upon your experience, does that allow you to draw any

22 conclusion with respect to the number of weapons that are requested as

23 opposed to the number of uniforms that have been requested?

24 A. On an average, the numbers of the Territorial Defence units with

25 respect to the size of the municipality was between 4 to 500 men. That

1 might vary according to the size of the municipality. But in Bosanski

2 Petrovac, they had already mobilised 540 men and that's what it says in

3 this document. Now they're asking combat sets for another 1.200 which

4 means that the unit of Territorial Defence for Bosanski Petrovac were a

5 number a total of 1.700 roughly, which means mobilisation of the whole

6 population of military-able men for Territorial Defence.

7 Q. And is the -- are you able to conclude whether or not the people

8 that the uniforms are requested for, whether they were armed previously to

9 this request?

10 A. No. No, they weren't. They weren't armed previously. And this

11 is just a part of the weaponry. These are small quantities, different

12 types of pistols, rifles, et cetera, for several hundred men. However,

13 the -- they had weapons issued to them before, because the 530th Logistics

14 Base was also there and JNA units were pulling out of Croatia and Slovenia

15 in that territory there. So the TO units would take weapons from them and

16 arm themselves in that way.

17 Q. Now, if I can draw your attention to the 3rd of January document,

18 3rd of January, 1992, my first question to you is: Can you tell us who is

19 the author of the document?

20 A. This document was written by the commander of the 553 -- and 30th

21 base in Petrovac, Colonel Milan Skondric. I know him personally, and he

22 took over from me in July 1992, Banja Luka, took over duty from me.

23 Q. Can I ask you to read the second paragraph of this document

24 beginning with the words "having evaluated political and security

25 situation."

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10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

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1 A. "Having evaluated the political and security situation throughout

2 the 530th POB Logistics Base zone of responsibility and taking account of

3 the tasks which the newly formed units of the Bosanski Petrovac

4 territorial staff have, we have concluded that these will serve to control

5 the territory administrative and lateral communications, protect

6 facilities of particular significance and coordinate action by the JNA,

7 the Yugoslav People's Army units, in the eventual or possible execution of

8 combat operations in this area."

9 Q. As --

10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Groome, could you confirm whether the translation

11 of this document was provided?

12 MR. GROOME: To the Chamber?

13 JUDGE KWON: I don't think we have it. The document signed by

14 General Skondric.

15 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, maybe I can give the ERN number and

16 confirm it that way, and if not I will have a copy provided. The ERN

17 number is 03000471.

18 JUDGE KWON: It's the first document, yes.

19 MR. GROOME: I'm sorry, because --

20 JUDGE KWON: That was the mistake. Yes.

21 MR. GROOME: Because of the ERN numbers, they were ordered

22 sequentially by ERN number rather than by date. They were just ERNed in

23 the correct order.

24 JUDGE KWON: I found it.

25 MR. GROOME:

1 Q. Sir, drawing your attention to the last phrase that you just read

2 to us, "The eventually execution of combat operations in this area," as a

3 commander of the JNA in January 1992 were you aware of any planned combat

4 operations in this area, planned as of January 1992?

5 A. In January 1992, in the area of responsibility of the 530th

6 Logistics Base, there were no combat operations of any kind. Bosanski

7 Petrovac covered the territory -- the logistics base of Bosanski Petrovac

8 covered the area up to Kljuc, towards Daruvar and in that area of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina and there was no combat going on there.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: In the eventuality of.

11 MR. GROOME:

12 Q. Sir, I draw your attention now to the 8th of January, 1992,

13 document. My question to you is: Are you able to tell whether this

14 request was approved by the JNA?

15 A. Yes. It was approved by Colonel Gradmir Petrovic from the

16 technical service who came from the 5th Military District of Zagreb where

17 he was the head of the technical service. I knew him. Unfortunately, he

18 was killed in Sarajevo immediately after these operations.

19 Q. Mr. Selak, I would like to draw your attention now to another

20 exhibit. It's Prosecution Exhibit 464, tab 10, and can we have your

21 comments on the table which is tab 7. My question to you simply is if you

22 would read the first or the title or the letterhead of this document for

23 us?

24 A. "The Socialist Republic Bosnia and Herzegovina, Assembly of the

25 Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa, Executive Board," is sending a

1 letter to the military post of 1754 of Bosanski Petrovac which is the

2 530th Logistics Base of Petrovac, but they're using a military postcode,

3 1754 in this case, and is requesting arms for the Territorial Defence.

4 Q. Mr. Selak, is it fair for us to conclude from that document that

5 the people requesting the document did so in the name of the Serbian

6 municipality of Bosanska Krupa and did it in direct communication to the

7 JNA?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I now draw your attention to Prosecution Exhibit 464, tab 11.

10 This is a letter of correspondence from the JNA dated the 23rd of April,

11 1992. Can I ask you to read the first line of the first paragraph?

12 A. "The Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa asks the command of

13 the 530th Logistics Base and the 10th command corps for help in forming

14 the Territorial Defence units and providing quartermaster and technical

15 material supplies for them (weapons and ammunition) in the first place."

16 Q. Is this an order or a document from the JNA indicating or

17 recognising the Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa?

18 A. Yes. And he quotes: "Bearing in mind the order of the Federal

19 Secretary for National Defence, strictly confidential," and the number is

20 359-1, the 29th of February, 1992, as well as the political situation in

21 this municipality, "we think that certain material supplies should be

22 approved, and they should be issued by the 530th Logistics Base." And it

23 is signed bit assistant commander for logistics of the 10th corps, Grujo

24 Boric.

25 Q. Sir, you've just read from the second paragraph and highlighted to

1 us a reference to a top secret order --

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. 359-1, dated the 21st of February, 1992. In the context of this

4 letter, it appears that this letter has something is to do with

5 logistics. You as the commander of a logistics base at this time, did you

6 ever see order 359-1?

7 A. I can't remember having seen this document under this number

8 because a lot of documents pass through my hands, but I do know that it

9 existed and that it was referred to in communication with units in the

10 area under my responsibility.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't think questions of this kind

13 can be asked. We don't have the actual text of the order itself, so this

14 can be quite distorted. It's quite distorted to put it in context with --

15 and in connection with anything else. For the question to be asked and

16 answered, we would have to have the complete text of the order itself.

17 JUDGE MAY: The witness says he doesn't remember any such document

18 as this and he's replied in those terms, so there's no evidential value in

19 his response, however, we have the document for what it's worth. Yes.

20 MR. GROOME:

21 Q. Sir, I now draw your attention to Prosecution Exhibit 464, tab

22 13. And I simply ask you is this another reference in JNA military

23 correspondence to the Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa?

24 A. Yes. Bosanski Petrovac is what this is. The military post of

25 Bosanski Petrovac. And the request is for Bosanski Novi in actual fact.

1 Q. And can I draw your attention --

2 MR. GROOME: My apologies, Your Honour, I misspoke. It's tab 12

3 that the witness is looking at now, not tab 13.

4 Q. Sir, could I ask you to look at -- this document also refers to

5 confidential order 359-1; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Does it also refer to a confidential order 2268-1 of the 30th of

8 December 1991?

9 JUDGE MAY: Which tab is he looking at?

10 MR. GROOME: 12, Your Honour. 464, tab 12.

11 Q. If I draw your attention to the last line just above General

12 Kukanjac's signature.

13 A. Do you want me to read it out?

14 Q. No. I'm just asking you does it refer to another confidential

15 order 2268-1 of the 30th of December, 1991?

16 A. Yes. Yes, it does. And the signature is of General -- Colonel

17 General Milutin Kukanjac who signed it personally.

18 MR. GROOME: Your Honour --

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome.

20 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: I notice here it says: "From the surplus in the

22 10th corps unit and available reserves issue weapons," et cetera. I'd

23 like to find out in what circumstances would there be a surplus in the

24 10th corps unit. If the witness can help us with that. How did it come

25 about that there was a surplus? Was that a pretty regular ordinary

1 circumstance?

2 MR. GROOME:

3 Q. Mr. Selak, are you able to address Judge Robinson's query? Please

4 explain.

5 A. Yes, Your Honour, I can answer that question. I said a moment ago

6 that when the units pulled out along with materiel from Slovenia that a

7 lost of units had to pass through this territory, and the units of the

8 corps took for themselves certain materiel and equipment, especially

9 weapons and ammunition. However, every unit has a certain portion of

10 materiel and equipment, and not to create a surplus for them they gave the

11 surplus to the Territorial Defence, and the rest came from the logistics

12 base.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

14 MR. GROOME:

15 Q. Sir --

16 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, if I could just point out for the

17 record, the confidential order 2268-1 referred to in tab 12 as well as tab

18 15, that was introduced in the Prosecution case as Prosecution Exhibit

19 387, tab 20.

20 Now, if I could ask that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit

21 464, tab 13.

22 Q. And if I could first, Mr. Selak, draw your attention to the seal.

23 Do you recognise the seal on this document?

24 A. Yes, this is the seal of the staff of the Territorial Defence of

25 Bosanski Novi.

1 Q. And does this document indicate the issuance of a number of

2 different supplies including military armaments to the Municipal Assembly

3 of Bosanski Novi?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Sir, the documents that we've seen from the JNA that refer to

6 different municipalities as Serbian municipalities during this early part

7 of 1992, does that indicate to you a disposition of the JNA at that

8 particular time?

9 A. Yes. This does tell me of the disposition and behaviour of the

10 JNA towards the arming of the units of Territorial Defence. Weapons and

11 other materiel and equipment were given to other Serb municipalities, and

12 I personally had some problems with respect to certain units, with General

13 Uzelac, in fact, and later on with General Talic, but more with Uzelac.

14 And we came to a verbal clash.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because he was not my superior.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This question is quite

19 inappropriate, that is to say to link it to tab 13, because the document

20 in tab 13, in fact, relates to the Socialist Republic of

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Municipal Assembly of Bosanski Novi, and not to

22 the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Serb municipality, and

23 that is vital.

24 JUDGE MAY: You can ask questions about that when it's your turn,

25 but don't interrupt, please, the evidence.

1 MR. GROOME: For the record, that question was in relation to Tabs

2 10, 11, and 12.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am indicating to you --

4 JUDGE MAY: No. It's not an objection. It's a point about the

5 document. You can ask the witness about it. You will have your chance in

6 cross-examination, as you know, and you can point out these things.

7 MR. GROOME: I now ask that the witness be shown Prosecution

8 Exhibit 464, tab 14. Perhaps the witness could be shown tab 14 and tab

9 15. They are closely related documents. If 14 and 15 could be placed

10 before him at the same time.

11 Q. Sir, are these two requests for armaments from the municipality of

12 Bihac?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What was the ethnic make-up of Bihac?

15 A. The ethnic composition of Bihac was a majority Bosniak population.

16 Q. And having -- having read the documents, does it indicate to you

17 that the municipality of Bihac, their request for weapons was treated in a

18 manner differently than the Serbian municipalities represented in the

19 documents you've spoken to earlier?

20 A. Yes. This is precisely borne out by what I said a moment ago,

21 because the commander of the military district here and Colonel Petrovic,

22 the technical services head, is being sent on requests for equipment to

23 the Federal Secretariat of national defence and the technical service in

24 Belgrade, and it refers to an order of the Chief of Staff of the SFRY,

25 2268, 13th of December, et cetera.

1 Q. I'll now ask that you take a look at Prosecution Exhibit 464, tab

2 16?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you recognise the signature on this document?

5 A. Yes. The signature is Colonel General Milutin Kukanjac, commander

6 of the 2nd Military District.

7 Q. And can you summarise the contents of this document for us?

8 A. Yes. This is a little strange and unusual, actually, for a

9 commander of a military district to order the command of the light

10 division of anti-aircraft defence. So the order is directly to them that

11 due to the current situation in the city of Sarajevo, the staff of the

12 Territorial Defence of Novo Sarajevo, where there is a majority Serb

13 population, to issue rifles, semi-automatic rifles of the 7.62 millimetre

14 type and 250 pieces of those, in fact. And this document indicates that

15 the commander of the district directly went down to the level of a

16 division and is in charge of the direct arming of the Territorial Defence

17 Staff with the Serb majority population. It's not quite logical. It's a

18 little illogical, but that's how it was, and it concerns the light

19 artillery battalion.

20 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, in the interests of saving time, I will

21 not refer to two exhibits that I originally intended to refer to. They

22 were dealt with in some manner in the Brdjanin and Talic case. They are

23 in the binders or the Prosecution Exhibits now 463, tab 35, and 463, tab

24 36. They are documents or other examples of the -- what the witness is

25 describing in the last few minutes. Respectively they were in the

1 Brdjanin and Talic case DB117 and DB117.

2 I will now ask the witness to take a look at Prosecution Exhibit

3 464, tab 19.

4 JUDGE KWON: Excuse me, Mr. Groome. I was just advised that your

5 reference to the tab 20 of Exhibit 387 is incorrect. Please check it out

6 later.

7 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

8 Q. Sir, can I ask you to take a look at this Exhibit 464, tab 19, and

9 ask you to -- or draw your attention to the three numbered paragraphs on

10 that page. And my question to you is: After the withdrawal of the JNA

11 from Bosnia, did some members of the JNA remain behind in the VRS army,

12 some officers?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And some of the officers that remained behind, were they Serb or

15 Montenegrin officers?

16 A. They were Serbs and Montenegrins.

17 Q. Does this document in paragraphs 1, 2, and 3 indicate the

18 conditions under which a Serb, a Montenegrin officer, formerly in the JNA,

19 presently serving in the VRS could return, leave Bosnia, and re-enter

20 service in the JNA in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

21 A. No. What it does is explain that any leave must have

22 authorisation and that disciplinary action will be taken for anybody who

23 leaves the unit of the Army of Republika Srpska of their own accord.

24 Q. And does the document indicate who will -- who will subject these

25 such people to disciplinary action, which army?

1 A. Disciplinary measures will be taken both in the Federal Republic

2 of Yugoslavia and in the Serb republic as well, and in the JNA.

3 Q. I now want to draw your attention to an exhibit that was tendered

4 through you in the Brdjanin and Talic case. It is tab 32, Prosecution

5 463. It is your own work notebook. Before I ask you substantive

6 questions about your notebook, can I ask you a few questions about how you

7 made the entries in this notebook? And my first question to you is: Do

8 you have the original of this notebook with you here in court?

9 A. Yes, I do. I have it in my briefcase.

10 MR. GROOME: With the Court's permission, I ask that the witness

11 be allowed to use his original copy.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

13 MR. GROOME:

14 Q. Mr. Selak, while you are taking out the original copy, can I ask

15 you, were you required to keep a work notebook detailing your activities

16 as commander of the logistics base?

17 A. Yes. Every officer of the Yugoslav People's Army was duty-bound

18 to keep a work notebook for his official contacts. And there were two

19 formats for this, the one I am holding in my hand now and a small pocket

20 version. And the notebook was registered in the general protocol and

21 logbook. It was assigned a number, and that is in fact an official

22 document in the control and command of units.

23 Q. And the entries that you made in your personal notebook, did you

24 make them contemporaneously with the events, meetings or matters,

25 contained in the notebook?

1 A. Yes. That's precisely what I did and I made the entries according

2 to the dates. My last notebook was left with Mr. -- Colonel Skondric who

3 took over duty from me, but I took this with me, this one with me and the

4 first date and entry is the 19th of December, 1991. And I recorded all

5 the meetings I had with my subordinates, with the officers, with my

6 superiors, and all other official meetings as well.

7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Groome, if you could give me the Exhibit number

8 once again.

9 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, we provided courtesy copies earlier --

10 was it last week?

11 We provided courtesy copies of these exhibits this morning, and

12 it's under tab 32 of the big binder.

13 Q. Mr. Selak, I ask to draw your attention at this point to an entry

14 on the 4th of May, 1992.

15 MR. GROOME: And for the assistance of the Chamber, the ERN number

16 is 01104766. So 766 would take you to the page of 4th of May, 1992.

17 Q. Mr. Selak, on the 4th of May did you attend a meeting during which

18 there was a discussion or a decision with respect to financial matters

19 discussed?

20 A. Yes. I informed the commanding officer in the base command about

21 the orders I had received from my superior. And among other things, I

22 informed them that the military computer centre was being transferred to

23 the Federal Secretariat for National Defence of the 1st Military District

24 in Belgrade.

25 Q. What was discussed at that meeting?

1 A. At that meeting, I informed my superiors regarding the condition

2 of logistics support on certain breakdowns in communications towards the

3 2nd district, that the command of the 5th Corps was in Banja Luka from the

4 15th of May. Let me point out that up until then, it was in the building

5 of the penitentiary in Stara Gradiska in Croatia. And the Federal

6 Secretariat for national defence was set to visit units in Banja Luka.

7 That is the 5th corps.

8 Q. On this same day -- I'm sorry. Can I now draw your attention to

9 your diary entry on the 4 of the June, 1992.

10 MR. GROOME: And if I could indicate to the Chamber the ERN

11 number. 01104801 to 4804 are the pages that I'll be referring to in the

12 English translation.

13 Q. On the 4th of June 1992, did you have a meeting during which

14 General Djukic called about who would be responsible for the salaries of

15 officers in the VRS army?

16 A. Yes. During General Djukic's statement, assistant for logistics

17 of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, he said among other

18 things, and I noted it down literally, that the federal government

19 regarding financing, that the federal government would finance this army,

20 and he's referring to the Army of Republika Srpska, with the numerical

21 strength as it was on the 19th of May, 1992, as stated on its account.

22 The government of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina has taken

23 a decision on the financing of military conscripts.

24 Q. Who was --

25 A. -- Through the account as stated on the 19th of May, 1992.

1 Q. Who was to be financially responsible for the pay due conscripts

2 in the VRS army?

3 A. For military conscripts for Republika Srpska as of the head count

4 of the 19th of May was the federal government, and above that number the

5 Government of Republika Srpska. So any number in excess of the number of

6 the 19th of May would be financed by them. And there were problems there

7 because of the level of salaries between active-duty and reserve command

8 officers, because active-duty officers had much higher salaries than

9 reserve officers, and there was a lot of dissatisfaction. And this was

10 discussed at meetings in the commands, and there was some political

11 problems over this.

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Groome, you can help me with where we can find the

13 statement by Djukic. I have page 4810, which seems to refer to the

14 remarks of Djukic, but it would be helpful if we can find this in due

15 course.

16 MR. GROOME: I believe it's on 4804, Your Honour -- I'm sorry

17 4803. And perhaps, Your Honour, over the break we could provide courtesy

18 copies with that passage highlighted to the Chamber if that would be of

19 assistance.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes, that would be.

21 MR. GROOME: And I have our copy here, Your Honour. It is at the

22 bottom of page 4803 where is says "General Djukic:" And it has his notes

23 regarding that conversation.

24 Q. Mr. Selak, your testimony here today, are you reading verbatim of

25 your notes or are you referring to your notes to refresh your recollection

1 about what General Djukic said at that meeting?

2 A. I wish to read exactly what I noted down at the meeting, and I did

3 my best to note down everything. So can I read it verbatim, please?

4 "Financing: The federal government shall finance this army

5 according to the head count as of the 19th of May, 1992, that had

6 previously been on its account. The government of the Serbian Republic of

7 Bosnia and Herzegovina has decided to finance military conscripts -

8 difference," which means only the difference between the two.

9 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, that portion of what the witness just

10 read is on the top of ERN ending 4804, and you can see "Financing:".

11 JUDGE MAY: I have it.

12 MR. GROOME:

13 Q. Now, Mr. Selak, you were still a commander after the JNA formally

14 withdrew from Bosnia; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did there come a time when members of your command had to travel

17 to Belgrade after the 19th of May to collect their salaries that they were

18 due?

19 A. Yes. I would send the head of my financial service to Belgrade to

20 collect salaries for officers and civilians employed in the logistics

21 base. That is their monthly salaries.

22 Q. And did that procedure for obtaining the salaries, did that exist

23 until the time that you left the service of the VRS as it was at that

24 time?

25 A. Yes. And later on as well, because we received our pensions from

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13 English transcripts.

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1 Belgrade. Officers received their pensions from Belgrade as well. And

2 salaries were received regularly throughout the war, because I had

3 contacts with my colleagues in Banja Luka, active-duty officers who

4 normally continued to receive their salaries. And there was this dispute

5 between active-duty and reserve officers over the difference in their

6 salaries.

7 Q. Mr. Selak, you've just referred to the salaries for civilians in

8 your command also being received from Belgrade. My question to clarify

9 that point is: Were all the civilians working in your command? Were they

10 all paid from Belgrade?

11 A. All those employed in the Yugoslav People's Army and later in the

12 Army of Republika Srpska who were on the payroll up until the 19th of May,

13 1992, continued to -- remained on the payroll of the Federal Secretariat

14 of national defence in Belgrade. I had quite a number of civilians,

15 mechanics, people working in the warehouses. In the command itself there

16 were very many civilians employed who normally received their salaries in

17 the same way they had done before.

18 Q. Perhaps to help us understand the magnitude of this payment, what

19 would have happened if the payment -- all the payment that you were

20 receiving from Belgrade for your employees, both military and civilian,

21 what would have happened if that had ceased?

22 A. People would have no means of livelihood. They would have to find

23 food in public canteens. They would get flour and bread, the essentials,

24 but it's not just a question of salaries but also weapons, ammunition,

25 fuel for tanks and planes. There would be a total break-up of logistics

1 support, and without logistics support, there can be no army.

2 Q. Would have you been able to operate your command without the

3 support that it received from Belgrade after the official withdrawal of

4 the JNA?

5 A. No, neither me nor anyone else. One cannot live from the air.

6 Q. I want to now draw your attention to a previously admitted

7 exhibit, and it was Exhibit 427, tab 50. We have provided a courtesy copy

8 to the Chamber and the parties here in the Court. In the English

9 translation the portion that I'm going to draw the witness's attention to

10 is ERN 01905597 or page 24 in the translation.

11 I'm going to read you a passage from the English translation of

12 this document. It says: "After the opening after corridor towards the

13 FRY and securing of basic and some consumer goods from that area, there

14 was a positive effect on the overall combat readiness, reinforcement and

15 the capability of units to carry out further tasks. During the year and

16 particularly with the interruption of payments and the separation from the

17 Yugoslav army in the period from May until the end of August, we

18 experienced serious difficulties in getting supplies for combat and

19 non-combat needs."

20 This reference to the corridor, is that a reference to the

21 Posavina corridor, do you know?

22 A. Yes. The corridor going from Banja Luka, Doboj, Brcko, Bijeljina,

23 Srpska Raca on the border with Serbia, and from there on to Belgrade.

24 That is the corridor, the main artery for all the people of Bosnian

25 Krajina, for the 1st Corps which used to be the 5th Corps.

1 Q. Can you explain to the Chamber what would have happened from a

2 logistics point of view if the Posavina corridor, that artery as you have

3 referred to it, had been severed for a significant period of time?

4 A. As a soldier, I am saying quite frankly I shudder at the thought.

5 If I was a corps commander and base commander, I would not have been able

6 to carry out my tasks. The units would not have fuel, ammunition, food,

7 money to meet their regular needs for medicines, and everything else. So

8 the unit would be totally cut off and its very survival would be called in

9 question.

10 Q. In preparation for your testimony before the Chamber, did you

11 assist members of the OTP staff in preparing two diagrams which illustrate

12 the flow of logistics support both prior to the 18th of May, 1992, and

13 after the 18th of May, 1992?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask that the witness be shown

16 Prosecution Exhibit 464 tab 20.

17 Q. My question to you: Is this the diagram indicating the flow of

18 logistics prior to the 18th of May, 1992?

19 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that it be placed on the ELMO. Your

20 Honour, we have the English version on the sanction system, and we will

21 have the B/C/S version on the ELMO so the witness can refer to it during

22 his testimony. The B/C/S version, please, on the ELMO.

23 Q. Mr. Selak, could I ask you to take the pointer on the desk in

24 front of you?

25 MR. GROOME: And if I could ask the director to zoom out a little

1 bit so we can see the entire diagram. Thank you.

2 Q. Now, Mr. Selak, can I ask you to do this in a systematic way? Can

3 I first draw your attention to the box labelled "JNA General Staff."

4 A. I can't hear. Could you please repeat your question? I couldn't

5 hear it. I didn't hear your question.

6 Q. Okay. The B/C/S version is now on the ELMO in front of you, so

7 when you point to something, the rest of us will be able to see it.

8 I'd ask you to do this in a systematic way. Can you begin with

9 the box indicating "General Staff" and then just explain to us how the

10 logistics structure of the JNA operated prior to May 18th, 1992.

11 A. In the General Staff of the Yugoslav People's Army, there was a

12 logistics administration which engaged in logistics matters for the

13 Yugoslav People's Army. The head of the logistics administration in those

14 days was Lieutenant Colonel Vladan Sljivic. The direct link from the

15 logistics administration towards the command of the 2nd Military District

16 went to the assistant commander for logistics of the 2nd Military

17 District, Major General Ratko Milicevic. The command of the 2nd Military

18 District or, rather, Major General Ratko Milicevic was in command of all

19 the basis that were subordinated to him. There were four of them in those

20 days in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I'm now pointing

21 the -- to the Logistics Base in Banja Luka which I was the commander.

22 I -- it was my duty and responsibility to logistically supply the

23 entire Banja Luka Corps. It was the 1st Corps. The 2nd Corps near Bihac

24 and other units in the territory and area of responsibility of the Banja

25 Luka Logistics Base.

1 Q. Mr. Selak, the line connecting the 5th corps command with your

2 logistics base, the 993rd rear service base, what does that line indicate?

3 A. This line marks the competence of the rear base logistically

4 supplying the corps, for the corps to submit its requests for logistics

5 supplies to the logistics base, and then the logistics base in Banja Luka,

6 if it is unable to resolve the problem on its own, informs the commander

7 of the 2nd Military District of the same, which can solve the problem with

8 resources from other bases. If it is unable to do so, it will send the

9 request to the logistics administration of the Federal Secretariat for

10 National Defence in Belgrade which will deal with it for the whole

11 territory of Yugoslavia or addressing itself to certain work organisations

12 or companies that were manufacturing supplies for the needs of the

13 Yugoslav People's Army.

14 Q. Mr. Selak, the line connecting your service base with the 2nd

15 Military District Command, does that represent the channel from which --

16 or through which you communicated your logistical needs on a macro-level,

17 which you then in turn distributed to the 5th Corps and other units that

18 made requests of you?

19 A. They were passed on to other units. And there were daily direct

20 contacts between the corps and the base. So there was no need for any

21 interference regarding logistics supplies between the base and the corps.

22 They had direct links. Only if the problem could not be resolved, then

23 the 2nd Military District Command could interfere. And they were

24 responsible both for the 5th Corps and the logistics base.

25 MR. GROOME: If I could ask now that Prosecution Exhibit 21 of 464

1 be placed on the ELMO, the B/C/S version. I would also ask that

2 Exhibit 20 be left with the witness in case he needs to refer to it.

3 Mr. Usher, this is an exhibit that we need to have placed on the

4 ELMO now, and that is tab 21 of 464.

5 Q. Mr. Selak, does this next diagram represent the flow of logistics

6 after the JNA officially withdrew from Bosnia-Herzegovina?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can I ask you rather than going over the structure again, can you

9 point out to the Chamber what changes came into place after the JNA

10 withdrew?

11 A. The changes after the withdrawal of the JNA were that the command

12 of the 2nd Military District was disbanded and the Army of Republika

13 Srpska was formed, the commander of which was Colonel General Ratko

14 Mladic. And his assistant for logistics was Major General Djordje Djukic.

15 The 2nd Krajina Corps was formed. I'm talking about my zone of

16 logistic responsibility. And we provided logistic supplies for the Army

17 of the Republic of Srpska Krajina that was in the territory of Croatia.

18 That is the 1st and 2nd operational groups.

19 Also, the bases changed their numbers. They acquired new

20 locations, new places of deployment so that the 27th Logistics Base which

21 used to be the Sarajevo base which was in town was relocated to Pale,

22 Republika Srpska, where the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska was

23 also headquartered.

24 The 30th logistic base in Bilici, this was a newly formed base --

25 Q. Mr. Selak, in the interests of time, the Chamber will have this

1 diagram to study it more carefully. Could I draw your attention to a few

2 particular points of it that I would ask you -- or seek your comment on.

3 The first is you have a thick line between the VJ General Staff

4 and the VRS command. Can you please comment on that relationship.

5 A. That was the relationship that had existed -- existed before too.

6 That is the General Staff of Yugoslavia was competent for the Army of

7 Republika Srpska regarding many questions of control and command as well

8 as logistics support.

9 Q. Now, can I draw your attention to the line connecting the 14th

10 rear service base, the renamed base that you were commander of, and the

11 line that connects that to the technical administration base of the VJ and

12 Commander Colonel Milisav Brkic. Can you describe what that line

13 connecting your base and this direct VJ administration base, what does

14 that line indicate?

15 A. This dotted line means that there were daily direct personal

16 contacts between officers of the technical service in the logistic base in

17 Banja Luka and the technical administration base in Belgrade, the

18 commander of which was Colonel Milisav Brkic who used to be the head of

19 the technical service of the military district in Sarajevo. We

20 communicated regularly by phone. I had his telephone number, and my

21 assistants in this service would regularly have contacts with him to

22 shorten the time needed to provide various technical supplies, because

23 administration is slow, it takes time. So Brkic would write instructions

24 to a subordinate unit to issue the materiel we're asking for so that the

25 unit should be provided with the required materiel in time.

1 Q. I'd like now to ask you some questions on a different topic.

2 During the course of 1992 to mid-May of 1995, did you have occasion to

3 call General Djukic, who is a member of the VRS army, in Pale?

4 A. Yes. General Djukic and I were comrades and friends. We were

5 together at the military academy. He was two years my senior. He was at

6 Pale, assistant commander of the Army of Republika Srpska for logistics.

7 Q. The party I would like to ask you to focus on is was there

8 anything unusual about the phone number at which you used to contact Major

9 General Djukic, member of the VRS army in Pale in Bosnia? Was there

10 anything unusual about that phone number?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And what was that?

13 A. General Djukic had the call-up number 011. This surprised me when

14 I first learnt it, and I have this number in my agenda. I was surprised

15 to hear a Belgrade area code, because 011 is the Belgrade area code, and

16 this was the area code that was later used by General Ratko Mladic as

17 well.

18 Q. Drawing your attention to General Ratko Mladic, did you have

19 occasion on April or early May of 1995 to contact him regarding a personal

20 matter? And it's not important that you go into substance of the personal

21 matter.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And what was -- was there anything unusual about his phone number?

24 A. Again, it started with the area code 011, which means it is the

25 area code for Belgrade.

1 Q. I want to now draw your attention to the subject matter of convoys

2 to Belgrade. During the time after the withdrawal of the JNA but before

3 you left your post, were you aware of convoys that were going between

4 Bosnia and Serbia bringing back and forth logistical supplies?

5 A. Yes. My logistics base would regularly send convoys of trucks and

6 tank trucks for fuel towards Serbia and Belgrade where the technical

7 administration would indicate where we would collect what and drive it to

8 the territory of the logistics base in Banja Luka, that is, to my

9 warehouse.

10 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I may be moving, so quickly -- I

11 apologise for not giving you paragraph numbers of the witness summary.

12 I'm now dealing with paragraph 68.

13 Q. Can you describe in general terms -- I will talk about some

14 specific examples or ask you to address some specific examples after the

15 break, but prior to the break can I ask you to describe in general terms

16 the types of vehicles that were used in these convoys and the approximate

17 number of convoys in an average convoy?

18 A. The types of vehicles were trucks with trailers, covered with

19 tarpaulin of course, tank trucks for fuel. The columns would consist of

20 45 to 50 vehicles, sometimes more, but these were not only for the needs

21 of the army but also for the needs of citizens. I'm talking about

22 Banja Luka now, because there was a problem of food shortages. So I

23 allowed my convoys to include 10 or 15 vehicles for the transportation of

24 oil, sugar, flour and other foodstuffs. Combat security of the column was

25 provided by the corps in Banja Luka with APCs that went in front and at

1 the end of the column. They secured the column around Brcko and Bijeljina

2 to protect it from any possible difficulties. This was regularly done

3 while I was the commander of the base, and as I was saying, this corridor

4 was the life artery for life -- enabling life in these areas.

5 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, is that a convenient place before --

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes. How much longer do you think you might be,

7 Mr. Groome?

8 MR. GROOME: Fifteen minutes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE MAY: Fifteen minutes. Very well.

10 Mr. Selak, we're going to adjourn now for 20 minutes' break.

11 Could you please remember in this break and any others there may be in

12 your evidence not to speak to anybody about it until it's over, and that

13 does include the members of the Prosecution team. Could you be back,

14 please, in 20 minutes.

15 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome.

18 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, before I continue, I realise that I've

19 been moving rather quickly through rather large volumes of documents. If

20 it's of assistance to the Court and the other parties and the amici, I

21 have asked Mr. Kerr next to me to provide a copy of those pages in those

22 large documents which we've specifically referred to with the section

23 highlighted. He will have them in advance of the cross-examination or as

24 soon thereafter as the cross-examination begins.

25 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

1 MR. GROOME:

2 Q. Mr. Selak, we concluded the first session this morning with you

3 discussing convoys. You gave rather extensive testimony in Brdjanin and

4 Talic, and for the record I would point to transcript page numbers 13111

5 to 3115 where you discussed using a war diary of the 1st Krajina Corps

6 about convoys that were going back and forth between the 1st Krajina Corps

7 and Belgrade; is that correct? Do you recall testifying on that subject

8 in Brdjanin and Talic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you have an opportunity to review that same war diary, and

11 that is for the record Prosecution Exhibit 463, tab 24, or Prosecution

12 Exhibit 1590 to use the Brdjanin and Talic designation. Did you have an

13 opportunity to review portions of that war diary earlier this week?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And do you recall seeing an entry in that diary from the 7th of

16 July, 1992, describing a convoy of 15 trucks being dispatched to Belgrade

17 to get logistical supplies for the 1st Krajina Corps?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. GROOME: For the record, the B/C/S ERN number of that page is

20 01304553 and the English is L0088327.

21 Q. Did you also see another entry referring to a convoy on the 9th of

22 July 1992 discussing 45 trucks in a convoy --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And for the record the B/C/S is 01304559 and the English L0088334.

25 Now, I have one more question with respect to convoys. Was there

1 a document that travelled with the convoy detailing the materials or the

2 supplies that were contained or being transported in the convoy?

3 A. Yes. Along with the convoy there had to be all the prescribed

4 documents stipulating the type and quantity of material being transferred

5 to Belgrade and from Belgrade towards Banja Luka for the corps.

6 Q. And was the purpose of that document, in part, in the event that

7 the convoy was stopped so it could demonstrate or show what exactly it was

8 carrying?

9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter asks Mr. Groome to slow down

10 when he gives ERN numbers thank you.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The document clearly stating who the

12 supplier of the goods is and who the goods are being sent to with a

13 signature and a stamp.

14 Q. And what is the name of this document that accompanies the convoy?

15 A. The official document was referred to as the materijalni lista or

16 materiel list or bill of lading which was used for the issuance of the

17 materiel and equipment and the reception of it at the other end.

18 MR. GROOME: I ask that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit

19 464, tab 22. It is a document dated the 9th of July, 1992.

20 Q. Mr. Selak, have you had an opportunity to read this document

21 prior -- after coming to Holland but before testifying here today?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The document is authored by a Colonel Vaso Tepsic? Did you know

24 Colonel Vaso Tepsic?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And I want to draw your attention -- this is a document concerning

2 logistical matters. I want to draw your attention to the second paragraph

3 under number 3, and if I could ask you to read the portion that begins

4 with "The commodities from RO Incel..." If you could read that sentence

5 for us, please.

6 A. Point 3 of the order, and I quote: "On the 9th of July, 1992, the

7 motor vehicles shall be dispatched to the work organisation Incel" - let

8 me explain that is the cellulosis paper factory of Banja Luka - "by 1600

9 hours to load 100 tonnes of toilet paper. The motor vehicles shall spend

10 the night in the Incel work organisation. On the 10th of July, 1992, at

11 0630 hours, the motor vehicles shall be collected at the work organisation

12 of Incel, refuelled at the Kozara barracks" - which is in Banja Luka,

13 that's my explanation - "and shall set off for Belgrade at 0700 hours.

14 "The commodities from the work organisation of Incel shall be

15 delivered according to the delivery order in Belgrade. The senior officer

16 of the group shall be responsible for the delivery and shall organise the

17 handover of the technical equipment and materiel, the TMS, for military

18 post 4022 Banja Luka in Belgrade," and that is the corps command, my

19 explanation.

20 Q. Mr. Selak --

21 A. -- "and shall take them to Banja Luka."

22 Q. -- Can you please explain what types of materiel that would make

23 up TMS, what's referred to as TMS in this document?

24 A. Technical equipment and materiel, TMS, refers to ammunition,

25 weapons, spare parts, fuel, oil and lubrication for vehicles, et cetera.

1 So technical material, not construction material and the like.

2 Q. Can you --

3 A. Medical supplies and so on.

4 Q. Can you in a sentence or two based on your experience as a

5 logistics commander interpret what is being discussed or described in this

6 document?

7 A. This document is about vehicles and says that vehicles from the

8 corps units shall be driven to Belgrade and that empty vehicles going to

9 Belgrade should be used to take from the paper factory 100 tons of toilet

10 paper. But on the return journey that they should pick up materiel and

11 equipment from the units of the Yugoslav People's Army on the territory of

12 Yugoslavia or, rather, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

13 Q. I want to now draw your attention to a different document, and

14 this is Prosecution Exhibit 464, tab 23. You have been handed the

15 original document. Have you had a chance to read this document prior to

16 testifying this morning?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I want to ask you some specific questions regarding this document.

19 First of all, can you tell us the date of this document?

20 A. The date on the document is - just a moment, please. Yes - the

21 28th of May, 1993.

22 Q. Who is this document addressed to?

23 A. The document is addressed to the person of General Momir Talic.

24 Momir Talic, the corps commander.

25 Q. And he was the commander of what corps in May of 1993?

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1 A. The 1st Krajina Corps of the Army of Republika Srpska.

2 Q. And does the sender of this fax or this correspondence indicate a

3 fax number where they can be reached, and if so, what can you tell us

4 about the location of the fax based on the number?

5 A. This number is the fax number in Belgrade, the area code 011,

6 763/653.

7 Q. And does this letter regard logistical supplies in specifically D2

8 diesel oil and other motor oil products?

9 A. Yes, it does. It explains the ways in which requests should be

10 tabled for it to be authorised in Belgrade, a request as -- made as

11 "humanitarian aid" for the needs of the Banja Luka region. Fuel 1.000

12 tons of D-2 fuel, et cetera.

13 Q. Mr. Selak, can I ask you to read the first sentence of this

14 letter?

15 A. "General, today I was informed at the Federal Administration for

16 Commodity Reserves by the Deputy Manager Nedjo Bodiroga, that all

17 provision of goods in the Republika Srpska can be issued only upon a

18 decision by the FRY government and only as humanitarian aid."

19 Q. And then can I draw your attention to the second paragraph. Could

20 I ask you to read the last sentence of the second paragraph.

21 A. "I suggest that Mr. Radic should table a request to the Yugoslav

22 government for humanitarian aid for the needs of the Banja Luka region."

23 Q. Mr. Selak, my apologies. It's the paragraph after that. Could I

24 draw your attention to the last sentence in that paragraph.

25 A. I see. "In addition to the other goods, I should like to also

1 mention 1.000 tons of D-2 and certain quantities of motor fuel MB-86

2 octane or 98 octanes."

3 Q. Mr. Selak, I will read a particular sentence for you and I would

4 ask you to find it on your copy. The sentence I'm reading begins with,

5 and I quote, "It shouldn't be mentioned that this is for the needs of the

6 army and it will be the way you agree." Can you find that portion on the

7 original in front of you? Have you been able to find it?

8 A. Yes, yes, that's clear. I've found it.

9 Q. My question to you is --

10 A. Can I read it out? Shall I read it out?

11 Q. It's okay. My question to you is: Does this letter indicate that

12 at least in May of 1993, military supplies, in this particular case of

13 diesel oil and other motor oil products, had to be authorised by the FRY

14 government before being given to the RS and they had to be disguised as

15 humanitarian aid? Is that a correct conclusion from the reading of this

16 letter?

17 A. Yes. Yes. That is my conclusion.

18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Groome, would the witness be able to identify the

19 author of this letter?

20 MR. GROOME:

21 Q. Can I ask you to answer Judge Kwon's query if you're able?

22 A. The signature here is that of Colonel Zudic or Budic. However,

23 General Talic wrote up in the right-hand corner "Amidzic." He is Colonel

24 Amidzic, assistant for logistics, because the other Colonel was killed.

25 So Bosko Amidzic replaced him and Talic is writing to him, to Amidzic.

1 Amidzic has to go to Radic, and reach an agreement, and Radic is president

2 of the municipality of Banja Luka.

3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

4 MR. GROOME:

5 Q. Now, Mr. Selak, I'd like to once again ask you to refer to your

6 work notebook. And if I could draw your attention to your notebook back

7 again to the 4th of June, 1992. And on the 4th of June, 1992, did you

8 make a note regarding requirements for materiel that General Djukic had

9 advised you of, those requirements to be fulfilled by the Federal Republic

10 of Yugoslavia?

11 And for the record, the ERN number is 01104811.

12 A. May I begin?

13 Q. Yes. Are you able to find your notes regarding --

14 A. Yes, I am able to. Yes, yes, I've found it. General Djukic at

15 the meeting with the -- Radic, president of the municipality, in his

16 speech Djukic, in addition to other things, stipulated that we should draw

17 up a specification of the materiel from the Federal Republic of

18 Yugoslavia.

19 Q. And did General Djukic indicate the chain or the path that such

20 requests to Federal Republic of Yugoslavia had to take?

21 A. Yes. The requests were to pass through the usual channels,

22 through the command and Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, and

23 then it was sent on to Belgrade from them to the General Staff of the Army

24 of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, in fact.

25 Q. Can I draw your attention to the 15th of June, 1992. Do you have

1 entries in your work notebook with respect to a meeting with General Momir

2 Talic? And the ERN number is 01104823.

3 A. Yes. On the 15th of June, 1992, there was reporting to the 1st

4 Krajina Corps commander with respect to logistical support, and on that

5 occasion, General Talic said that the transport of materiel should go from

6 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, that that should be organised,

7 transport from the FRY, and that is what I stipulate in my diary or,

8 rather, work notebook.

9 Q. And did you note or is there any note that you've made that

10 indicates the size or quantity of the supplies that were being requested

11 by Momir Talic?

12 A. Yes. I mention here 66 types of ammunition which was critical.

13 We needed those supplies. Seventy-five types of ammunition. Also we were

14 running out of those. There were not enough generators, tyres, tarpaulins

15 for vehicles, spare parts, and expendable material. And then there was a

16 shortage of certain foodstuffs and that all this was being requested via

17 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, the replenishment and resupplies.

18 Q. And finally could I draw your attention to the 5th of July, 1992.

19 Do you have notes in your workbook or your notebook with respect to the

20 same issue of supplies being requested and received from the Federal

21 Republic of Yugoslavia? And I'd ask you just to answer yes or no to that

22 question.

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, in the interests of time I won't go into

25 the detail of that, and again we'll provide a courtesy copy with the

1 translation highlighted.

2 Q. Mr. Selak, my final question to you is a matter that I began to

3 ask you early on in your testimony and it is with respect to General

4 Uzelac and -- about a request from him to you to dispense weapons. Do you

5 recall that portion of your testimony?

6 A. Could you repeat the question, please? General Uzelac -- what did

7 you say.

8 Q. Do you recall earlier today I asked you about -- did you ever

9 receive an order from him or request from him to dispense weapons which

10 you determined were in violation of JNA regulations?

11 A. Yes. General Uzelac, I think it was in November 1991, asked me,

12 as assistant -- he sent assistant logistics commander to my office and

13 asked me to issue weapons to the Territorial Defence of Mrkonjic Grad,

14 Sipovo, and for the 5th Kozara Brigade.

15 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I didn't have the reference before --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Prijedor.

17 Q. Mr. Selak, I'm going to read a portion of an exhibit previously

18 tendered, and it is an intercept dated the 8th of July, 1991, between the

19 accused Mr. Milosevic and Mr. Karadzic. It was introduced as Prosecution

20 Exhibit 353, tab 31, and it was referred to in transcript --

21 JUDGE MAY: Not yet. Not yet admitted.

22 MR. GROOME: I'm sorry. Marked for identification, Your Honour.

23 And it referred to transcript 13.340 to 45.

24 Q. I'm going to read a small portion of that transcript of that

25 intercept and ask you if this relates -- the matter that's being discussed

1 here relates to the request that you received from General Uzelac. And

2 this is Mr. Karadzic speaking: "Yes. That's underway. But tell me, can

3 we arrange the same thing, that they give me back the armament of the TO

4 in Sipovo and Mrkonjic Grad?" Mr. Milosevic: "That's a small matter."

5 Mr. Karadzic: "All right. Let them arm them there. Here I've got 170

6 ready in Mrkonjic and 150 in Sipovo and they are ready to go to Kupres."

7 Milosevic: "Is Uzelac also in charge of that?" Karadzic: "No, no. This

8 is -- er I think that is him, yes, yes." Milosevic: "Tell him that

9 brother, no problems." Karadzic: "All right." And finally

10 Mr. Milosevic: "We cannot discuss every small detail like this."

11 Based upon your later interaction with Mr. Uzelac, does this

12 conversation relate to the request made by General Uzelac to you?

13 A. Yes. That was precisely it.

14 MR. GROOME: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, a moment ago Mr. Groome

17 said quite rightly that he went through all this great number of documents

18 very quickly, and indeed he did. As you can see, I received here this

19 morning some transcripts and the various tabs which were just skimmed

20 through. I wish to draw attention to the fact that it is absolutely

21 impossible for me to cross-examine this witness in the course of today.

22 That's --

23 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic --

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's quite obvious. Let me put it

25 quite simply.

1 JUDGE MAY: We have considered the position, the time taken by the

2 Prosecution. We've also considered the fact that this witness has given

3 evidence before in transcript form now before us. So bearing all those

4 matters in mind, you've got three hours starting from now, which will

5 indeed take you into tomorrow.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't think three hours will be

7 sufficient, but if that's your decision and ruling, I have nothing to do

8 with that. It's up to you to decide.

9 MR. GROOME: I will just note for the record that the transcripts

10 were provided at the beginning of March.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Selak, you spoke about the corridor, and you

14 said that it was the lifeline for those parts, the main artery; is that

15 right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Tell me roughly now, please, how many inhabitants were there

18 living west of Brcko?

19 A. West of Brcko in my assessment and according to the 1991

20 population census, there were about 800.000 to 1 million people.

21 Q. Right. A million people living west of Brcko.

22 A. Including Doboj.

23 Q. All right. Fine. So that -- and it was just this corridor that

24 served to supply this 1 million inhabitants. If you add to that the

25 inhabitants of the Republic of Srpska Krajina which had no other

1 connection or links with the rest of the country at all, that was the sole

2 lifeline too?

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 Q. So that was the only lifeline and connection which supplied the

5 population with what they needed to survive, this 1 million, 2 or 300.000

6 people living in that part. That's right, is it?

7 A. With the exception of the requirements for combat, ammunition and

8 weapons, and all the other things the army needed. So it wasn't only a

9 question of food. The question of food wasn't the only problem.

10 Q. Do you mean to say that there was sufficient food and medicines

11 and clothing and oil and fuel, not to mention all the other requirements?

12 So that wasn't the problem according to you. It was just weapons and

13 ammunition that were the problem.

14 A. I didn't say that food was not a problem, because in my convoy,

15 sir, I always included vehicles transporting food, because I was well

16 aware of the problem and that we ought to solve it in humanitarian terms.

17 Q. Yes. So that's what it's all about. The sole link through which

18 life was ensured and the survival of these people, and as I say there were

19 about 100 -- 1.300.000 inhabitants was in fact this corridor, this

20 lifeline and connections with Yugoslavia. Now, were they able to receive

21 aid and assistance from anybody else? Could supplies come in from anybody

22 else?

23 A. Well, there was no policy -- had policies and politics been

24 different, there could have been other corridors and communications.

25 Q. Yes. I do agree. If the policy wasn't what it was, had there not

1 been a war, had there not been an armed secession, then none of that would

2 have been necessary.

3 Now, tell me this, as you're well acquainted with that: So this

4 sole corridor through which supplies came in and through which the

5 survival of 1.300.000 persons depended upon, how many different corridors

6 were in existence which you in Bosnia-Herzegovina used to supply

7 yourselves from Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Indonesia, and the

8 Western countries and so on? Do you have any knowledge of --

9 JUDGE MAY: No. Before we go into this kind of polemic, the

10 witness can only deal with the area in which he was responsible.

11 Did you receive any support from outside, and a number of

12 countries are mentioned such as Turkey, Iran, et cetera? Did you receive

13 any supplies from them?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not a single pfennig. Not a single

15 kilogramme of oil or anything else, Your Honours.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Well, that will be easy to demonstrate. But we don't have to do

18 that with this witness.

19 Now, to save time, I should like to move on. Of course I can't do

20 it as quickly as Mr. Groome did, but anyway, I shall go through the tabs.

21 But this passage through the tabs, let me start by quoting one that

22 Mr. Groome omitted, probably unintentionally, but it was tab 18, in fact.

23 He skipped that one.

24 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness have the documents as they're referred

25 to. Tab 18. Yes.

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Take a look at this then, please. It is addressed to -- the last

3 sentence says -- the last sentence of the document is, as you can see,

4 "inform all members of the Army of the Serbian Republic of

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina about the contents of this report in the most suitable

6 way." Isn't that right, Mr. Selak?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So all the members of the Army of Republika Srpska are being

9 informed of the contents of the document.

10 Now, let's go back to the first page. The date on that is 21st of

11 May, 1992. That's right, isn't it, Mr. Selak?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And the text begins with the following words: "On the basis of

14 the decision on the withdrawal of the JNA (Yugoslav People's Army) from

15 the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, a major transformation of the army

16 has taken place. All members of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia have

17 left the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, while officers and soldiers born

18 in this republic have returned to the territory of the Serbian Republic of

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina and joined the armed forces." Is that right?

20 A. That's what it says in this document, yes.

21 Q. However, Colonel Vukelic who is the signatory for the commander

22 for moral guidance for the 1st Krajina Corps did not have the right to

23 write this last sentence that you quoted because he could have informed

24 only members of the 1st Krajina Corps of the contents and not all the

25 members of the Army of Republika Srpska. That wasn't under his

1 competence.

2 Mr. Selak, even if that is so --

3 A. Yes, that is so.

4 Q. Everything refers to the Army of Republika Srpska. Now, whether

5 he had the right to do so, whether he was authorised by somebody to

6 dispatch this to whom he did, you don't know that and that's not the

7 essential point either. What is essential is what is written here in the

8 document.

9 A. Yes. But not all the members of the Federal Republic of

10 Yugoslavia left the area of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the territory. Just a

11 small portion. So this is not correct.

12 Q. All I'm asking you about, Mr. Selak, is what it says in the

13 document. Now, all the things that are incorrect in documents that you

14 commented on here, we'll come to that due course.

15 Does it go on to say under number 1 there is an explanation saying

16 that the countries of the European Community have interfered, the

17 so-called German bloc, which have had centuries-long aspirations to

18 dominate these areas and which have, because of this, waged two world wars

19 unsuccessfully. In their estimation, this is a suitable time to achieve

20 the centuries-old aspirations, to create many tiny, dwarfish mini-states

21 in these areas which would be very suitable for all kinds of manipulation

22 and dependency. Is that right, Mr. Selak?

23 A. That is what it says in the document.

24 Q. Of course you don't agree with that.

25 A. No, I don't.

1 Q. Very well. One of these mini-states was to have been Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina in which all key issues would remain unresolved especially

3 relations between the constituent peoples, and those unresolved relations

4 and the violence that was resorted to, did that provoke the civil war,

5 Mr. Selak?

6 A. Your Honours, this document was written by Colonel Vukelic who was

7 born in Serbia, assistant for moral guidance, and as such a document it is

8 addressed to the soldiers with the aim of politically influenced them.

9 Q. Mr. Selak, that is what it says here.

10 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Just help us with this. What was the

11 role of the officer for moral guidance? What was his position in one of

12 these units.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, his position was

14 assistant corps commander for moral guidance. So he would see to raise

15 the morale of the officers and soldiers of the corps. And this document

16 is indicative of this, to explain the aims of the battle and what it is

17 they are to achieve, what are their goals right down to the lowest-level

18 troops.

19 JUDGE MAY: Very well. If it says what it says here, we will have

20 in mind your explanation. So you can simply agree with what it says. I

21 mean, don't agree with the sentiments, but agree that that is what the

22 document says.

23 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's a document which Mr. Groome

1 submitted here, only he didn't quote from it. It's not my document.

2 JUDGE MAY: I think we better clarify that. Some records appear

3 to indicate that the Prosecution were no longer relying on this document.

4 Even if that's so, it maybe convenient simply to retain it in the bundle

5 and give it the same document number.

6 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. In the interests of time, I

7 withdrew it yesterday evening, but I have no absolutely no objection to it

8 being retained.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, we'll reinstate it and we'll do that with

10 any other documents if they're referred to which were in the bundle. Yes.

11 We'll reinstate that one. Yes.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, thank you very much.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. In point 2, does it go on to say: "In such conditions, the

15 Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia found themselves in the

16 most difficult situation even though the oldest and a constituent people

17 they are exposed to unscrupulous deprivation of their rights,

18 transformation into a national minority and genocide. The Serbian people

19 neither could nor wanted to accept such humiliation and loss of rights.

20 In Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Serbian people have organised themselves

21 politically and are firmly resolved to struggle alone to secure their

22 historical right, national dignity and interests."

23 Is that what it says, Mr. Selak?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Let me leave out some of this to save time. On page 2, having

1 previously explained where the Serbian people live in Bosnia it says:

2 "They do not want anything that is not theirs and has not been theirs for

3 centuries but will not cede to anyone an inch of their territory. The

4 peace-loving Serbian people primarily care about peace, a peaceful and

5 just solution to all disputes in this areas. That is why its political

6 leadership, bodies and institutions are persistently initiating

7 negotiations on a peaceful separation."

8 You know very well that the Cutileiro plan was signed by all three

9 parties, aren't you?

10 A. Yes. There were negotiations.

11 Q. Very well. Then -- and signed. It also says that after the

12 proclamation of the constitution of the Serbian Republic of

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina it still wasn't called Republika Srpska. It was called

14 the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And the constitution of its

15 state bodies, the Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina was

16 formed as an armed force of the Serbian people. Then that there was the

17 Main Staff, that Lieutenant Colonel Ratko Mladic has been appointed

18 commander, and so on. And then in the following paragraph, please follow:

19 "The uniform of the JNA has been retained, which we otherwise have at

20 our disposal," as they had no other.

21 In the one but last paragraph in the last sentence it says, please

22 follow: "This army is struggling for truth, freedom, a fatherland for the

23 survival of its people, for peace and progress, and that is why its

24 behaviour toward its own people and the enemy has to be dignified and

25 chivalrous and dignified." Now, please, I draw attention to the last

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1 paragraph. "It will defend its own people from all dangers and assist it.

2 It will hit at the enemy, an armed struggled, whereas captured and wounded

3 members of the enemy, as well as the civilian population, will be treated

4 in a soldierly, civilised and humane manner in keeping with the norms of

5 international laws of war. That is why all levels of command and control

6 must be engaged most energetically in building up the moral and combat

7 image of our members and must implement all available measures to curb any

8 possible incidents of conduct that could tarnish the dignity and

9 reputation of that image."

10 Is that so, Mr. Selak?

11 A. That is what is written there. But they behaved differently.

12 Q. There is no doubt that there were individuals who behaved

13 differently, but this was the approach that the Army of Republika Srpska

14 adopted in the struggle that was being waged on the territory of the

15 former Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Is that so or not?

16 A. No. That was not the approach, because 280.000 victims were not

17 killed by individuals but the army, paramilitary organisations, and

18 volunteer units. This was written with a different intention, but actions

19 differed from words. More than 60.000 people were moved out or killed or

20 detained in camps, and I am talking about Prijedor alone, the

21 responsibility of the Banja Luka Corps, not to mention others.

22 Q. Very well, Mr. Selak. We will certainly come to those matters.

23 In Serbia at one point in time there was 1 million refugees. I

24 don't know who they had fled from and why. Among them, of course, 50.000

25 Muslims from Bosnia and Herzegovina who were treated on an equal footing

1 with others, as you know.

2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you've been told before. You're asking

3 questions now, not making statements. If you want to give evidence, you

4 can do so in due course.

5 No need, Mr. Selak, to respond to that.

6 Yes.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. In order to make the most efficient use of the time available to

10 me, I will now cover several other tabs. I started with number 18, as I

11 said. In tab 1, the personal particulars are given, your personal

12 particulars. I won't read out all of this.

13 You were promoted to the rank of colonel in 1986, commander of the

14 Logistics Base 993. Then in March 1992, chief of the liaison group for

15 contacts between UNPROFOR and the JNA. That is what it says.

16 And then it says on the 19th of May, 1992, you applied for

17 retirement from the service of the JNA. That is the information that you

18 provided.

19 A. Yes. And I have those documents, the originals of those

20 documents, in my briefcase.

21 Q. I believe you, but you explained that you were thrown out of the

22 JNA, and here it says that you submitted a request for retirement.

23 A. You didn't understand me. I was replaced from the position of the

24 chief of the liaison group for contacts between UNPROFOR and JNA in April

25 1992, and I again became commander of the logistics base in Banja Luka.

1 And it was from that position that on the 19th of May I submitted a

2 request for retirement.

3 Do I need to repeat that?

4 Q. Who was the chief of the liaison between UNPROFOR and the JNA and

5 whether that was replacement or reassignment, you were commander of the

6 logistics base, and you went back to take up that same duty. So I assume

7 you were temporarily appointed chief of the liaison group, because that

8 usually is not a job performed by an officer from the logistics area but,

9 rather, from the information administration or another administration.

10 A. No, Your Honours. There were three groups for cooperation with

11 UNPROFOR. The first group was in Belgrade, a second in Sarajevo, and a

12 third in Banja Luka. I have in my briefcase the original document on my

13 appointment as chief of that group, and it doesn't say that it was a

14 temporary appointment but that I was appointed chief of the group, being

15 in the 7th payroll group. And I was there for about one month and ten

16 days. I have the document in my briefcase, Your Honours, and if you wish,

17 I can show it to you.

18 Q. Does it say in the document when you were sent back to the

19 logistics base that you were replaced or re-appointed to the same job?

20 A. No. It says because there was no longer any need for my

21 engagement in the group for cooperation with the UN that I should return

22 to take up my former position of commander of the logistics base.

23 Q. There's nothing discriminatory in that?

24 A. No. It doesn't say so. But in the Tribunal, there is a document

25 in which General Vukelic, the commander of the Banja Luka Corps, in March,

1 requests that because of political unsuitability I should not be appointed

2 to this position of chief of liaison with the UNPROFOR. I had this

3 document in my hands in the Brdjanin trial.

4 Q. Very well. And then on the 10th of July you went on leave, and on

5 the 1st of October, your retirement was accepted. I'm just reading from

6 your own information, not any documents of my own. That your request for

7 retirement was accepted on the 1st of October, 1992.

8 A. Yes. I have all the original documents here. I can show them.

9 Q. I'm not doubting any of this. You yourself submitted a request

10 for retirement. Then you asked to go on leave, and your request that you

11 submitted was accepted. So there's nothing abnormal. No one threw you

12 out of the JNA.

13 A. No, they didn't, but the implication was that I was no longer

14 suitable, because the corps commander held meetings with his assistants

15 for half an hour and only then would I be called in so that I wouldn't

16 hear what they had discussed before I joined them.

17 Q. So as not to go into marginal issues, Mr. Groome quoted from a

18 document from tab 2 in which the republican staff of the Territorial

19 Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Sarajevo, it is the 23rd of April, 1990,

20 orders the district and Municipal Staff to collect weaponry and place it

21 under the control of the JNA; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How did you explain why this was done?

24 A. The withdrawal of the weapons from TO units throughout Yugoslavia

25 started at the end of 1990 by decision of the Assembly of the SFRY.

1 Slovenia would not agree to it. Partially, Croatia didn't either.

2 However, Bosnia returned everything to warehouses. And the commander of

3 the republican staff issued an order for the weapons to be transferred to

4 JNA warehouses, and if JNA has control over it, then it is known to whom

5 they would be issued.

6 Q. Now, whether that was known or not is your own conclusion, but

7 what you have here, you have also tab 3 which Mr. Groome did not quote

8 from. I don't know whether he withdrew that one too, but it relates to

9 the same matter. Please look at tab 3. And it is in response to a

10 question of a member of parliament in the Assembly of Serbia. And the

11 delegate or member of parliament made a question, and the corresponding

12 ministry has to provide an answer. And here he's quoted, and it says:

13 "As we have learnt at the federal level, a decision has been taken to

14 abolish the Territorial Defence. Pursuant to that decision, weapons and

15 war materiel have been withdrawn from the warehouses of factories and

16 local communes. Thus the people were disarmed; it was until a few days

17 ago we used to say, 'we are the army.'

18 "My question is: Where are the weapons and what will happen to us

19 now that we do not have the concept of All People's Defence? How shall we

20 resolve these issues?

21 "What to do, where and how, if a rifle is shot from somebody's

22 shoulder at marked Serbian houses?"

23 So a deputy in the parliament of the Republic of Serbia is putting

24 this question precisely because an identical procedure is being carried

25 out in Serbia, weapons taken and placed in JNA warehouses. And then we

1 have the answer.

2 Is it clear and was it clear to you at least in those days,

3 Mr. Selak, that this was also done in Serbia? So not just in Bosnia and

4 Herzegovina. It was a decision of the federal authorities, and it was

5 implemented as you see. It fully coincides which you yourself said

6 occurred in Serbia. The same applied to the Republic of Serbia. Are you

7 aware of that?

8 A. The weapons were relocated by the Yugoslav army, later distributed

9 it to members of only one ethnic group, as has been proven through a host

10 of documents available in the Tribunal.

11 Q. We'll come to that too, as you have information regarding these

12 minor distortions which throw a completely different light on the matter,

13 but we'll come to that.

14 Mr. Groome also referred to tab number 4 containing the

15 conclusions regarding the assessment of the situation, and he insisted

16 that you read out the date. This was addressed by the commander of the

17 2nd Military District, Milutin Kukanjac. And he also speaks about the

18 situation on the ground under (a). "Krajina (without Eastern Slavonia),"

19 as that was not the area of responsibility of the 2nd Military District,

20 he says: "According to reliable information, gradually and very

21 persistently," and this was the situation on the 19th of March, 1992, he

22 takes -- "the moderate elements, the leadership recently constituted in

23 Vukovar, is taking the initiative," that is, the leadership of the

24 Republic of Serbian Krajina.

25 And then he says that, "The new authorities are working on ousting

1 Milan Babic from the office of President of Knin municipality." You know

2 that the problem with Babic occurred precisely because he refused to

3 accept the Vance Plan, and the majority in the Assembly of the Republic of

4 Serbian Krajina supported it as is the -- as did the leadership of Serbia,

5 supported that plan.

6 And he says here that, "The behaviour of Milan Babic and his

7 supporters could cause certain problems during the transfer of territory

8 between our forces and the UN forces and the withdrawal of our forces."

9 However, he doesn't believe it will cause any major problems.

10 Then he speaks about the situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

11 With respect to Krajina, did Milutin Kukanjac give a correct

12 description of the situation as it was at the time?

13 A. I cannot talk about the political situation in the so-called

14 Serbian Krajinas. I went there only officially to tour the units. But I

15 can't talk about the political situation, and I don't want to make any

16 mistakes.

17 Q. Very well. But this is a document that has been tendered through

18 you. So please -- please note under (b) he says that in the federal

19 republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, "The situation is virtually dramatic,

20 especially in Herzegovina (Mostar, Capljina), around Bosanski Brod,

21 Travnik, and some others. Polarisation along national lines is

22 increasingly evident. Interethnic hatred in all spheres of life is

23 increasingly more obvious. All this has an inescapable effect on members

24 of the army and the options of individuals, especially in the ranks of the

25 Muslims."

1 And then he says: "Regardless of statements on the need for

2 cooperation and tolerance, the national parties are drawing increasingly

3 further apart. This is the characteristic of the Serbian Democratic Party

4 and the Party of Democratic Action."

5 So he is saying that these parties are drifting further away from

6 one another. He's not taking anyone's side in that situation.

7 A. You could explain it that way. However, the second part of the

8 document says other things, gives other instructions and guidelines in

9 that same document.

10 Q. Let's go to the end of the document.

11 A. Yes, I agree we should go to the end of the document because it

12 says that under the European Community talks that several important points

13 have come to the fore. And he says: "First, Alija Izetbegovic, the SDA

14 party, Party of Democratic Action, most Muslims are negotiating and

15 believe that an independent sovereign Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina will

16 be created under their auspices in which they would play dominant role.

17 Second, the Serbian people have opted for Yugoslavia," it says, "and if

18 they can't have this then the only consideration is a confederal

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, which means a respect for all three nations living in

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina which would then be a separate state but a confederal

21 one, along confederal lines."

22 And then he says the third variance simply does not exist. Simply

23 there is no third variant. And "Third, the Croatian people and their

24 party, the HDZ," that's the following paragraph, "are advocating albeit

25 cautiously a confederal Bosnia-Herzegovina; in practice, the Croatians

1 have done much for this option. Their advocacy for the unit -- for a

2 unitary Bosnia-Herzegovina is more formal in nature. Such behaviour is

3 more indicative of Muslim/Croatian coalition against the Serbs rather than

4 a realistic option." Is that true and correct, Mr. Selak.

5 A. Well, you're reading all this from the document quite correctly.

6 Q. All right. Fine. And then he goes on to say under 4 that he had

7 a visit from Cutileiro and that Cutileiro said that all sides are at

8 starting positions and that he wants to hear the opinions of the

9 commander, and he presented him with those views. And so on and so forth.

10 And he says, "two facts are quite evident: First, that the Serbs

11 are satisfied and second, that the document," and he's referring to the

12 Cutileiro plan, "are interpreted with so much variety that nothing is

13 clear any longer." Is that what it says?

14 A. That's what the document says.

15 Q. And then he goes on to speak about the situation in the field and

16 the JNA, and he says, "The relationship of the HDZ towards the JNA is

17 growing more antagonistic by the day." Then he goes on to say that there

18 is reference to a "so-called 'Yugo army' that brutally murdered Croats and

19 destroyed houses." And then he goes on to quote under quotations, "'That

20 is a Serbo-Chetnik army.' And that one gets the impression that any talks

21 of the possibility of the army remaining in the Croatian areas in

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina and some kind of cooperation simply does not stand a

23 chance given the present situation." Is that right?

24 A. Yes. But the army did stay on to the strength of four corps of

25 the Army of Republika Srpska.

1 Q. Then he goes on to say "the role of the army" -- and anyway, I

2 read out to you the piece of information saying that the Army of Republika

3 Srpska was established.

4 A. That's what I'm saying.

5 Q. That it was made up of the citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina just

6 like the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina made up the citizens of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina -- was made up of them that is to say that is the

8 Muslims?

9 A. Yes, but the Serb army received 20 tanks, 1.018 APCs, and 1.260

10 howitzers, et cetera, whereas the others didn't receive a single rifle.

11 Q. Yes, we'll come to that who was issued with what and what actually

12 happened there, but among others it says under point (3), "The role of the

13 army in preventing bloodshed in Sarajevo on the 3rd and 4th of March 1992

14 had strong reverberations in the positive sense of the word among all the

15 citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina." And then it goes on to say that, "The

16 party's leaders at all level are trying to minimise the role of the army

17 with the Croatian people, that among that night among his people and are

18 proving quite successful. And I'm sure you'll remember that the army did

19 prevent bloodshed and all the rest of it. Do you remember those events,

20 Mr. Selak?

21 A. I don't remember the key details. I know it happened but I can't

22 remember the specifics and details. I can't comment. It's not that I

23 don't want to; I can't comment on the details.

24 Q. And point B says, "the role of the JNA army that night revived the

25 Muslim people's trust towards the JNA to a great degree. The district

1 command has received most telegrams, letters and telephone calls from

2 Muslims as a sign of gratitude to us for preventing bloodshed. We have

3 learnt that the leadership of the SDA and some other parties are reviewing

4 a plan that would again turn the Muslim people against the JNA. Up to

5 now, they have not prov