030603ED

Page 21541

13 Page 21541 – redacted – private session

Page 21542

1 [redacted]

2 [Open session]

3 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Now we're in open

5 session.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Yesterday, you gave the following explanation: Since you had not

8 been in your village for 17 years, you could not remember more people. We

9 established yesterday that you remembered only four names; is that right?

10 Because you had not been in your village for many years, and that was the

11 explanation why you could not remember more names; is that right?

12 A. I don't know which names you have in mind.

13 Q. Doesn't matter which names. My question was how come you could

14 not remember any more names, only these four names?

15 A. Because I did not recognise any more people than that.

16 Q. You did not recognise them because you hadn't lived there for 17

17 years; is that right? And was that the explanation?

18 A. Yes, it was.

19 Q. That explanation is rather flimsy in view of the first thing

20 that was shown here yesterday. I'm not going to mention your village.

21 I'm not going to refer to it specifically, but we do have here your

22 details, and we looked at them or, rather, you looked at them when we

23 started, that is, 023 -- 0293543. It's tab 1, actually. That's easier.

24 Tab 1. That's where your details are. And then you say under point 2,

25 from 1975 until mid-1990, during the week I lived in Belgrade and during

Page 21543

1 the weekend, and then you give the name of your village.

2 So during all those years, you went to your village, and it was

3 only during workdays that you went to work in Belgrade. How do you

4 explain this then? How do you explain what you said, that you hadn't been

5 in the village for 17 years and that's why you didn't know people when you

6 were there every week?

7 A. I would be at home. I would work.

8 Q. Oh, so you didn't have contact with other villagers?

9 A. Rarely.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. The population of that village is a couple of hundred people.

13 A. Mr. Milosevic, I know the people who live in my village, but they

14 are not the ones who took part in this.

15 Q. And then I asked you and you said that you did not mention this at

16 all but you did manage to recognise the Serbs, the guards, soldiers,

17 whichever way you want to call them. And then you asked me where it said

18 so that you knew them, and I'm going to read this to you now where it says

19 so. Of course I have the English version, in all fairness of that

20 statement. That is page 5. And the number is 00453878.

21 In the last paragraph it says: "[In English] Throughout our

22 detention in the hangar, we noticed the guards worked in three shifts of

23 eight hours each. Each shift had eight guards and out of the total number

24 of the guards, I recognised three. They were Ratko Spasojevic from the

25 village of Setici, Vlajko Jovanovic from the village of Petkovci, and

Page 21544

1 Mujo [sic] (LNU)," [Interpretation] I don't know what that means, "[In

2 English] from Trsic or Celopek and everybody called Mujo as Captain."

3 So that's what you wrote here, that you knew these people?

4 A. I didn't know that man. It isn't "Mujo," it's "Mijo."

5 Q. All right, "Mijo."

6 A. But the men from Trsic who were detained addressed him by his

7 name. They knew his name was Mijo, and the rest called him Captain.

8 As for Vlajko, I saw him once when he came and when he said, "How

9 come there is so much vermin around here? If somebody wants to kill

10 himself I will help them immediately." And then she left. As for Ratko

11 Spasojevic, I did not see him at all. I had seen him only in town before.

12 So that's the explanation.

13 Q. You didn't see him?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Here at the end there's a sentence that reads as follows, because

16 you say you saw this man once and he said how come there is so much vermin

17 around here and then you never saw this other man that's what you say.

18 "[In English] I knew Ratko and Vlajko very well because we had played

19 football together as youngsters."

20 [Interpretation] So you knew them well. It's not that you saw him

21 once. You said that you knew them well. And now you say that you saw one

22 of them only once and the other one you say that you never saw. What is

23 the truth?

24 A. The truth is that I know both of them but I did not see Ratko. I

25 saw Vlajko.

Page 21545

1 Q. What do you mean you saw Ratko?

2 A. I said that Muradif saw him. That's what it says here. That's

3 what it should say there. This is what it says.

4 Q. "[In English] I recognised three." [Interpretation] "I recognised

5 three, that's what it says. Ratko Spasojevic from Setici, Vlajko

6 Jovanovic from Petkovci, and Mijo from Trsic or Celopek." So that is what

7 is written here. Please tell me, Mr. 1098, what is the truth?

8 A. The truth is what I said only awhile ago.

9 Q. But how come this is written here?

10 A. I don't know how come, but obviously they didn't understand me

11 properly. I don't know English, you see.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

13 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I don't know --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Nice, please.

15 MR. NICE: I don't know if the Chamber would like copies of the

16 statement without prejudice as to whether it is ultimately to be produced

17 as an exhibit to follow this sort of text or argument by the accused,

18 because I think the text really needs to be seen for the witness to be

19 able to respond fairly.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we'll see a copy. Which was the passage again?

21 MR. NICE: Page 5 at the foot.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. So you claim that all of this was mistranslated, that you

24 recognised them, that you knew their names and then you explained that you

25 had played football together as youngsters with these two. So all of this

Page 21546

1 is due to mistranslation. Is that your assertion, Mr. 1098?

2 A. As for Ratko Spasojevic and Vlajko, it is true that I used to play

3 football with them. And Ratko Spasojevic was born the same year I was.

4 But it is also true this is what is written here. And I gave the

5 correction because of what the translator said then. I said that it was

6 not written properly.

7 Q. So that's what you said and then you denied it.

8 A. I did not deny it. The interpreter did not understand me.

9 Q. So the interpreter invented Ratko Spasojevic?

10 A. No, the interpreter did not invent Ratko Spasojevic. I said that

11 Muradif had seen Ratko Spasojevic.

12 JUDGE MAY: Just remember, both of you, allow the other one to

13 finish asking the question and that includes you, Mr. Milosevic, but

14 Witness B-1098, would you watch the accused's microphone and make sure

15 it's off before you answer. Yes.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Now, in this correction, yet again you have this statement

18 0304841 -- 8141, and you correct what it says here, and you say: "I

19 mentioned that Ratko Spasojevic was a guard." And then you say: "I did

20 not see Ratko Spasojevic personally. [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 A. Right. That is the kind of statement I made.

23 Q. So that's the correction you made. So you heard from your nephew

24 Muradif that he was one of the guards.

25 A. Muradif.

Page 21547

1 Q. And then you correct yourself and you say that you never saw him

2 come and take prisoners out of room 1 and --

3 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt, but the question

4 has given a full name in a few lines back of the nephew. I was careful

5 not to use full names. Can the passage be redacted, please?

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes. I think it may be safer to go into private

7 session for these questions.

8 While you're asking questions about these people, we'll go into

9 private session.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. May. I'm not going

11 to put any more questions, but no doubt --

12 JUDGE MAY: Well, if you come to any occasion you're going to ask

13 questions about individuals, we'll go into private certification but we'll

14 stay in open session for the moment.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Tell me, please, what kind of uniforms were these men that you

17 mentioned wearing?

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes, if you'd like to answer.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They wore camouflage uniforms.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. All right. You say -- I mean, since you mentioned the men you

22 knew from your village, the men you knew were there, do you consider them

23 to be the JNA or these reservists from your village, what do you consider

24 them to be?

25 A. I do not consider them to be the JNA, but I do consider them to be

Page 21548

1 the reserve force of the JNA.

2 Q. The men from your village?

3 A. No, they're not from my village.

4 Q. They're from the surrounding area?

5 A. Yes, the surrounding area.

6 Q. And then on page 5, in paragraph 6, you say that you know this

7 Mijo, nicknamed Captain, and you don't know his last name, and you don't

8 know --

9 JUDGE MAY: We'll go into private session now. You've been told

10 if we were mentioning the names we'll go into private session.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But he spoke about this.

12 JUDGE MAY: We are going into private session, and we're going to

13 stay there. Yes. We'll stop all this.

14 [Private session]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 21549

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 21550

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. 1098, on page 7 of your statement you claim that during this

21 alleged execution that you describe in that small room, 3 by 3, you were

22 shot at from two machine-guns; is that right?

23 A. Two of the guards.

24 Q. Those two guards with two machine-guns shot at you in this small

25 room 3 by 3 and you say that there were 20 of you in that room?

Page 21551

1 A. I said around 20. And now whether both were shooting in that room

2 3 by 3, I mean, if I were to shut people into a room 3 by 3 and if I were

3 to start shooting, I wonder whether anybody's going to notice who was

4 actually doing the shooting, both people or just one man.

5 Q. But this is in line 1. You say 20 detainees. That's what you

6 say. So as they were shooting from two machine-guns at close range in a

7 closed area, they allegedly carried out an execution, and you're the only

8 one who was not hit. They managed to kill the rest, the 19 remaining

9 people.

10 A. It doesn't say two machine-guns here.

11 Q. Well, since you can't see it, I'm going to tell you where it is.

12 You say -- this is the first paragraph, if you disregard the paragraph

13 that started on the previous page. "There were two guards who were

14 wearing SMB uniforms and were armed with machine-guns." And then you say:

15 "As soon as we had our backs towards the guards, they started to shoot at

16 us with their machine-guns."

17 A. That's exactly the way it was.

18 Q. So why do you say I don't see machine-guns in the statement?

19 A. No, no, no. That's not what I meant. I didn't mean this

20 paragraph, the one that you just referred to now.

21 Q. I understand. All right. Is it correct that on that occasion

22 although you were not hit you passed out? You say out of fear.

23 A. I still don't know until the present day what it was really like,

24 whether I had passed out or not.

25 Q. Well, that's the last sentence in this paragraph. "I was not hit

Page 21552

1 by the bullets but probably out of fright I fell unconscious." That is

2 what is written here.

3 A. I put it quite properly, that most probably I passed out during

4 the shooting, and I fell. And when I came to, which means that I did pass

5 out, then I heard moaning, screams, cries, and what not.

6 Q. While you were unconscious? How can you then claim on page 7 in

7 paragraph 3 that the guards, afterwards, shot from two machine-guns, and

8 you claim that they killed 19 men? They did not hit you. You were not

9 even wounded. And then they immediately entered the next room and then

10 they shot detainees there, and you were unconscious in the meantime. How

11 do you know that?

12 A. That was only this period of crisis. Perhaps it was only a minute

13 or -- a second or two.

14 Q. You were unconscious for only a second or two?

15 A. Only a couple of seconds.

16 Q. That's a very interesting explanation. A man passes out and then

17 I knows that he was unconscious only for a second or two and then he hears

18 everything else. Very interesting?

19 JUDGE MAY: Are you suggesting, Mr. Milosevic, that this didn't

20 happen, that the witness wasn't there and didn't hear and see these

21 things? Is that what you're suggesting?

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What I'm suggesting, Mr. May, is

23 this witness is not telling the truth at all.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think you're saying it

25 either, telling it either. I'm not a politician. All I'm doing is

Page 21553

1 telling the truth and the truth.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Witness 1098, you're talking here. I'm not doing the talking.

4 On page 7, paragraph 4, you say that you heard a truck starting,

5 and you peeped outside the room to see whether they had left; is that

6 right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you weren't unconscious then already at that time?

9 A. Yes, that's right.

10 Q. All right. Give me the names of those 19 people. Which of those

11 19 people who were with you do you know by name, of the ones who were

12 killed, of those 19?

13 A. I know four, four of them.

14 Q. So you know those four men, and they were altogether with you over

15 there in that group.

16 A. Yes, in that group.

17 Q. And then you go on to say that, "I was too scared to inspect the

18 crime scene." That seems to be the language and terminology you use.

19 "But I know that all those who were brought there with me were killed

20 because they have never been seen since." That's what you said, isn't it?

21 A. Well, it's not only that those have never been seen since. Seven

22 hundred of those people have never been seen since.

23 Q. My question is very specific.

24 A. And so is my answer.

25 Q. Well, how can you say that they have never been seen since when

Page 21554

1 you don't know who they were?

2 A. What do you mean I don't know who they were? I know who was

3 killed.

4 Q. You said you know four of them, which means that you don't know

5 who the other 15 were. So how can you say they were never seen again when

6 you don't know who they actually were?

7 A. Well, Milosevic, their families know very well who they were, the

8 families that remained alive behind them.

9 JUDGE MAY: The witness is being provoked by these kind of

10 questions and the way they're being put.

11 Now, Mr. B-1098, I realise you're being provoked by this sort of

12 questioning, but don't get angry, please, and don't address him by his

13 name. You're giving evidence to the Court, so address us and not him.

14 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. All right. We seem to have cleared that up. So you claim that

17 they have never been seen again although you don't know who they were. So

18 you don't know that the people, who you don't know who they were, were

19 never seen again?

20 JUDGE MAY: He's answered these questions.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Fine.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Now, you claim that you were in a panic and jumped over a concrete

24 fence of some kind, ran towards the Drina River which was about 2 to 300

25 metres from the house; is that right?

Page 21555

1 A. Well, I don't know whether there is exactly 2 to 300 metres. It

2 might have been 500 metres.

3 Q. Right. Maybe 500.

4 A. Well, I didn't measure the distance.

5 Q. Then, tell me this then, please, how long did the drive in the

6 truck last from Pilici up to the house that you were taken to, the

7 so-called house that was called Gero's slaughterhouse where the executions

8 took place? How long did you drive in the truck for? How long did that

9 take?

10 A. All I know is that we were escorted by police car. Now, how long

11 it lasted, none of us had watches, all of them were confiscated, so we

12 weren't able to look at the time and see exactly how long, but you know

13 how many kilometres it is.

14 Q. Well, give me a rough estimate. How long were you driven in the

15 truck for? I don't want you to use a stopwatch to measure the time.

16 Roughly, a rough estimate.

17 A. Well, I don't know. It could have lasted half an hour, 45

18 minutes. I really can't say.

19 Q. And how long were you hidden in this place where you took refuge

20 by the Drina River?

21 A. I was in hiding -- I was in hiding by the Drina River from about

22 10:00 in the morning until dark fell. It was June, so that would make it

23 around 9:00 in the evening. That's when it gets dark. So from 10:00 a.m.

24 to 9:00 p.m., 2100 hours.

25 Q. All right. Now you're quoting a figure, the number of people, and

Page 21556

1 you say a total of 193 people. You were within a distance of 500 metres

2 and between you and them was this concrete fence which you say you jumped

3 over. And then you go on to say in that same paragraph, in the previous

4 sentence, that because of the concrete fence you weren't able to see the

5 men getting out of the truck; is that right?

6 A. I said that I was 500 metres away from that place, and I said that

7 I was roughly 500 metres away and heard the truck arrive and heard a

8 repeated burst of gunfire. Then I heard the truck leave, and I heard it

9 come back the way it came the previous time, bringing the first load or

10 first lot.

11 Q. Yes. You said that very nicely, and you said that, "Because of

12 the concrete fence, I wasn't able to see the people." That's what you say

13 on page 7 now, tell me this, please. How is it possible for you not to be

14 able to see the people but nevertheless you were able to count them from

15 this distance of 500 metres where you were? How come you were able to

16 count the people which you say you didn't see?

17 JUDGE MAY: He did not say he counted them. He made an estimate

18 about the number of people on the truck.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. All right. Now, on page 7, paragraph 6, you claim that besides

21 yourself, another man, and I'm not going to name names here, survived

22 because I assume we would have to go back into private session. But I'm

23 sure you know who I'm talking about because you can look at it.

24 A. Yes. I am bearing that in mind, and I do know who the man is whom

25 you mean. But he survived in that third tour, in that third lot.

Page 21557

1 Q. However, neither he nor anybody else is able to bear out your

2 assertions and allegations. Am I right in saying that? Can somebody --

3 JUDGE MAY: The witness can't say what anybody else may know or

4 not. Now, he's giving his evidence and he can tell you what he knows, but

5 he can't say what other people know.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Yes. All right. But what happened to that man? Tell us that.

8 He survived, didn't he?

9 A. May I answer that, Your Honours? That man did survive, and he

10 reached free territory and was killed during the war later on,

11 subsequently.

12 Q. So he was killed later on during the war; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Explain this to me please now. You say, and I don't want to read

15 the man's name out, that you learnt this fact later from some soldiers in

16 Zaseok so witness at that time you didn't know of the man's existence and

17 yet you claim that he was brought in for execution in that third group of

18 people. So how could you say that at all? How can you claim that in the

19 first place?

20 A. I can claim that because there is a statement by him the same year

21 he escaped just as I gave my statement the first year I escaped in.

22 Q. So you're not testifying to that. You say that a statement by him

23 exists, is that it? Fine. Now, then you go on to say on page 7,

24 paragraph 7, that the next day you tried to go to your own village but you

25 got lost, and then due to circumstance, you had to go back to the house

Page 21558

1 where the execution was conducted. Is that what you say? Near the house

2 where the execution took place, is that it?

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 Q. Now, tell me this --

5 THE INTERPRETER: May we hear the witness, please.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. How were you able to find -- if you were not able to find the path

8 to your own village, how were you able to reach this particular house?

9 A. I wandered around where all that was going on. I was wandering

10 around during the night in the rain. I'd like to ask anybody whether

11 they'd be able to find their way at night in a downpour.

12 Q. Mr. 1098, further down that page once again in paragraph 7, page

13 7, as you were there for the second time in that particular spot when it

14 got dark you say that you started walking towards your village, and a name

15 is mentioned there. I don't want to mention the name of the village. Is

16 that right?

17 A. Well, I explained a moment ago that I was walking around at night

18 and that I lost my way. And the day I spent hiding in the meadow, in the

19 high grass, I stayed there the whole day hiding then came out when it was

20 dark and found myself in that spot.

21 Q. I'm asking you about what happened later on once you had seen the

22 bulldozers and all the rest that you described having seen. You described

23 it at length. Afterwards, when it got dark, you say that you tried to go

24 to your village.

25 JUDGE MAY: That is what the witness has said. Now, your time is

Page 21559

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 21560

1 really up. What is the question? You can ask one more after this.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I have several more questions,

3 Mr. May.

4 JUDGE MAY: The time is up, so you can ask this question and then

5 one more. It's difficult to see what the question is at the moment.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Well, explain to me, because you were not able to find the way to

8 your village during daylight, how were you able to find it at night, in

9 the dark?

10 A. After those two nights spending -- spent wandering around Karakaj

11 and once I had passed Celopek on that second night, I started climbing the

12 mountain. I spent the night in the forests, and the next day I started

13 out at daylight.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] One more question. May I ask it,

15 please, Mr. May? I have several but please allow me enough time to ask

16 one. I think it's essential.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Twice during your oral testimony here yesterday in this courtroom

19 you mentioned some women. On one occasion you said that women were crying

20 out, the locals, the local women, along the roadside, and they shouted out

21 to the men there, "Kill the balijas." And then on another occasion you

22 say that one woman was shouting out through an aperture in the cinema

23 hall. She said that if her brother was killed, she'd kill all of you.

24 So tell me this now, please: Was that the reaction on the part of

25 the women and the general atmosphere that prevailed after the crimes that

Page 21561

1 the Muslim forces perpetrated against the Serb civilians in that region

2 and then you were captured in those operations? Is that how it came

3 about? How can you explain this reaction on the part of the women that

4 they shouted out, "Kill the balijas," and the women who said if her

5 brother was killed she would kill you. Who would kill her brother? What

6 was going on that somebody was going to kill her brother?

7 JUDGE MAY: Can you answer that at all?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can answer it. May I?

9 When we arrived in Karakaj, there was -- there were a lot of women

10 there, and they were all shouting, "Kill the balijas." Now, the woman who

11 was looking out of the window, that woman was from Pilica. So these are

12 different places; different villages. And she said that if her brother

13 were to be killed, she would kill us.

14 Now, I don't know, and may I ask a question, may I be allowed to

15 ask a question, what were those people looking for in Kovacevici and

16 Vitinci [phoen] when that is a purely Muslim settlement? Whereas they

17 went to expel them and we were loyal citizens, Milosevic, down there. I

18 wasn't captured during a battle or during any fighting.

19 JUDGE MAY: No. No. Mr. Tapuskovic.

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I should

21 like to start off by asking the witness to explain to the Trial Chamber

22 several points linked to Exhibit 456, tab 4. I can't see the witness at

23 all behind the screen.

24 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, yesterday in response to a question from

Page 21562

1 Mr. Nice, you explained this document, so I don't want to go back to those

2 questions. You have the document before you, don't you?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. Now, tell me, did you see the document for the first time in the

5 Office of the Prosecutor, the OTP, or did you know about it later?

6 A. I saw it here yesterday.

7 Q. I didn't understand what you said. What did you say?

8 A. I saw it here yesterday.

9 Q. Did you happen to notice that the title on the document is as

10 follows: It says review of transport of refugees as ordered by the

11 interim government of the Serbian municipality of Zvornik and the

12 Territorial Defence Staff of Zvornik. No mention is made of the JNA. It

13 says here that everything was compiled on orders from the interim

14 government of the Serbian municipality of Zvornik. Did you happen to note

15 that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Is that how it really was, that everything was organised by the

18 Zvornik municipality, in fact?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Well, at all events, you don't know that it was organised by the

21 JNA, do you?

22 A. I don't know who organised it. All I can -- all I do know is what

23 I was able to read in the document, that -- the passages that follow.

24 Q. Very well. Now I should like for a moment to go back to your

25 statement, the one that you gave to the investigators of the Tribunal on

Page 21563

1 the 24th of November, 1996, and I'd just like to focus on one particular

2 paragraph which you explained to us yesterday. Let me just remind you of

3 it. You said that most of the soldiers who had surrounded your village,

4 and I'm not going to mention the name of your village, wore JNA uniforms;

5 is that right?

6 A. There were all kinds.

7 Q. All right. Fine. And you said that you personally saw on that

8 particular day, on the 1st of June, two tanks; is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And then you go on to say quite clearly, "I think that the

11 soldiers in the olive-green uniforms were members of the regular forces of

12 the JNA, whereas the soldiers wearing camouflage uniforms were locals,

13 Chetniks"; is that right?

14 A. Well, I'm not sure that I put it that way, but I said something

15 similar.

16 Q. Well, that's what is says in the statement, but never mind. That

17 was the statement you gave on the 24th of November, 1996, to the

18 investigators of the Tribunal.

19 Now, along with that statement I received from the OTP, from the

20 Prosecution, Your Honours, pursuant to Rule 66, your own statement of the

21 17th of June, 1992, to the security centre of Tuzla, the Republic of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the sector of the state security department. Do you

23 remember that on the 17th of June, 1992, you did in fact give a statement

24 to this body?

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have the

Page 21564

1 statement translated by the OTP in English, and the number of it is the

2 Serbian version, 0024672 --

3 MR. NICE: Copies are available as I indicated yesterday and

4 coming your way.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Do you have that statement in the Serbian language?

7 A. I don't need this. I know what I said.

8 Q. I just wish to remind you. Look at the beginning of that

9 statement. You said the following: "As far as I can remember, about a

10 month ago the village of Kula was attacked by the Chetniks." I won't read

11 out the name of your village. And then the volunteers from your village,

12 the 37 of them, went to defend Kula, that is, 37 volunteered and another

13 five from another village. And since you didn't succeed in your defence,

14 they returned home. Is that right correct, that from your village and

15 other villages armed volunteers went to defend Kula one month before the

16 17th of June, 1992?

17 A. It is true that they went there. I don't know exactly whether

18 there were 37 of them, but they did go to defend Kula. I'm not denying

19 that.

20 Q. I understand. But tell me this now. I read your statement very

21 carefully, this particular statement. I don't have time to go into the

22 details. There are many things that you have already said here. But you

23 mostly said that all this was done by Chetniks. You even recognised a

24 young man. And then in ten or so places you keep referring to the word

25 "Chetniks," which means locals according to the statement you gave to the

Page 21565

1 investigators of the OTP. Now, explain to me, please, how come that in

2 this statement you didn't mention anywhere JNA members?

3 A. Because I call them Chetniks too. It's not written anywhere, but

4 I didn't mention it.

5 Q. But yesterday you even mentioned the police.

6 A. Yes. I mentioned the police, and I even said that there was a

7 Muslim among them.

8 Q. I understand all that, sir. But just explain to me why you didn't

9 say that on the 17th of June, 1992, only five or six days after those

10 events? But it was only to the investigators that you said that. Just

11 explain that, please.

12 A. I will explain. I would like to ask you after such a trauma what

13 you would have told if you would have experienced the disaster that I did.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have

15 no further questions.

16 MR. NICE: Your Honours, I think it may be helpful if we review a

17 little bit more of that statement that's been put in, preferably in

18 private session.

19 [Private session]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 21566

13 Page 21566 – redacted – private session

Page 21567

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [Open session]

19 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

20 MR. NICE:

21 Q. You say a few lines further on after hearing the man say "Let them

22 suffer," speaking of the man who asked to be killed, you say: "I slowly

23 pulled myself out from under the dead bodies." Did you find yourself

24 under dead bodies as you've described in detail in this statement?

25 A. That is true. That is where I found myself, because when they

Page 21568

1 started shooting people in the back, people were turning around and

2 falling. And this relative who held me by the hand was on top of me.

3 Q. Now, there are two passages I want your comment on that you

4 haven't been asked about by the accused or Mr. Tapuskovic. You describe

5 going off to the brush wood and waiting for night to fall, and then you

6 say in this statement or it's recorded that you said: "From there I saw

7 two more trucks loaded with people arrive and I heard machine fire." Did

8 you in fact see the trucks arrive but only hear the machine-gun fire?

9 A. I heard the trucks very well when they arrived. True, on that day

10 there were three trips. In the group I was in, there were 64 of us. Then

11 they brought two more lots. And they opened fire at the same spot. I

12 heard the fire, and I heard the trucks arriving. I wasn't far away.

13 Q. The question is: Did you actually see the trucks as this

14 statement suggests or only hear them?

15 A. Maybe it says I saw them. I just heard them coming to the same

16 stop from which I had escaped the execution.

17 Q. Two lines further on where you calculated the number of people

18 that would have been killed. You said this, and I'd like your comment on

19 it: "I assumed that was done by the residents of Pilica." Why did you

20 make that assumption and what did you mean?

21 A. I don't know where it says that. I may have said about these 300

22 that stayed behind down there, that this may have been done by the locals

23 of Pilica, by the inhabitants of Pilica.

24 Q. And then finally on this topic, although one other question after

25 it on the statement, a little bit further on after you deal with the

Page 21569

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 21570

1 people who'd been speaking of the murderers of the young man called Sane,

2 you deal with, you're going to the house where the execution had taken

3 place, and you say or your statement records you are saying that in the

4 bushes, you saw them using forklift trucks to load the dead bodies onto

5 the trucks, and you assume there were about 400. Did you actually see

6 them loading bodies onto the trucks or did you deduce that that's what had

7 been happening?

8 THE ACCUSED: [No translation].

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I answer that?

10 JUDGE MAY: What is it, Mr. Milosevic?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The point is that the witness in his

12 statement doesn't speak of a loader but of a bulldozer.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The interpreters, Mr. Milosevic,

14 don't know what a loader is and they used the word bulldozer, and I'm sure

15 you know what a bulldozer is.

16 JUDGE MAY: One at a time.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I assume you were giving your

18 statement in your own language.

19 JUDGE MAY: One at a time, Witness B-1098.

20 Mr. Nice, would you care to take over and straighten this out.

21 MR. NICE:

22 Q. What your statement, if you've got it there in front of you

23 B-1098, appears to say at this passage is that you saw them using forklift

24 trucks to load dead bodies into the trucks, and you assume that there were

25 about 400. Now, when you were giving evidence yesterday you spoke of your

Page 21571

1 deduction that there were bodies in the lorry with the tarpaulin around

2 the side of it. Can you help us? Did you actually see loading of bodies

3 onto the truck or did you simply deduce that in the way you suggested

4 yesterday?

5 A. You see, when I was watching, it was a big truck with a -- like a

6 container behind covered with a tarpaulin. And this same bulldozer was

7 standing right next to the truck. The forklift would be loading the

8 bodies. Then they would cover the struck with tarpaulin across the sides

9 and thread it -- thread the rope through to tie it down.

10 Q. Is this something you actually -- is this something you actually

11 saw, that procedure, or is this something that you deduced, something that

12 you inferred from what you did see?

13 A. You see, this forklift, it was working all the time. And just

14 then, people in civilian clothes were tying down the tarpaulin. So I

15 thought that they were loading those bodies onto the truck.

16 MR. NICE: Thank you.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, the witness certainly

19 didn't give his statement in the English language. That is what I assume.

20 And in the statement in the Serbian language on page 7, one but last

21 paragraph it says, I'm reading the whole sentence up to the full stop: "I

22 returned close to the house where the mass killing had taken place, and I

23 saw a bulldozer loading bodies onto a truck," full stop.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we have the point. We have the point and the

25 witness has explained. Let's move on?

Page 21572

1 MR. NICE: My last question on the statement is at the foot of the

2 page, Your Honour. It deals with a person who the witness did name in

3 open session yesterday.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. B-1098, you said this in your witness statement, during your stay

6 in Medjedje, you heard that Vejsil Hamzic from Durokovci [phoen] had

7 survived the execution because he had supposedly found himself in a group

8 that was killed in the truck. He was still in Medjedje.

9 Is that the process whereby you learned of this other survivor,

10 although he was a survivor subsequently killed elsewhere in the war?

11 A. Well, when I reached Zaseok, that is in free territory, I was told

12 straight away by the inhabitants of Zaseok that another man had come from

13 the execution. They had arrested him thinking he was someone else.

14 Afterwards I found that Vejsil, but unfortunately he was killed during the

15 war. I wish he were an alive and that he could testify because he

16 survived the same as I did.

17 Q. This is the statement that you made just days after finding

18 yourself in free territory, a statement you made in hospital, and you're

19 giving an account there of how you learnt of Vejsil Hamzic. Is the

20 account you give about learning about him a true one?

21 A. Correct. I explained a moment ago that when I reached Zaseok on

22 free territory, the people in Zaseok told me that another man had arrived

23 and he was in the third group for the execution.

24 Q. Finally these two or three questions. You heard me inform the

25 Chamber this morning that you were interviewed in the hospital and that

Page 21573

1 you'd been interviewed for television or something on a subsequent

2 occasion at least once since. On those interviews, have you given the

3 history of this massacre?

4 A. It's probable that I didn't say everything on television for my

5 own safety.

6 Q. Yes. But you gave a general account of all these people being

7 killed?

8 A. I knew about these 400, but I said I didn't believe anybody had

9 survived. And you have a recording, you can play it so that he should

10 know what they did.

11 Q. Has anybody until the accused started cross-examining you

12 yesterday suggested to you that your account of these events is

13 fabricated, fictional, made up?

14 A. Never has anyone done that prior to Milosevic.

15 Q. Finally this, but answer it in general terms, please: To your

16 knowledge, is the area where the people who you say were killed lived

17 recently been re-populated by such of the people who lived there

18 originally as have been able to return home?

19 A. The area now, I think, is being re-populated. Not a hundred per

20 cent, but I believe 90 per cent it has been re-populated .

21 Q. Has there been any suggestion in the course of that re-population

22 that these hundreds of people, hundreds of men you described as having

23 been killed at Karakaj are not dead at all and are actually in a position

24 to come home and retake their properties?

25 A. The women and children have come back and those who were killed

Page 21574

1 will never come back to regain their property. They're done with. If I

2 could now ask a question, if possible, please.

3 Q. Not of me because I've finished the questions I want to ask you,

4 but if you ask the question of Their Honours, they may or may not indulge

5 you. I don't know.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Quite a few of these returnees of

8 ours, Your Honours, went back there. As I said awhile ago, 90 per cent of

9 the population has returned. And again, people are getting closer to each

10 other, Serbs and Muslims. Any Serb you ask about these people, where they

11 are and how they fared and where the graves are at least, they say, "How

12 should we know? It's people from Yugoslavia who came." That's the kind

13 of question or answer you'll get from any Serb who lives there. They say,

14 "No way. We have no idea about this." And now he's telling me that the

15 Yugoslav People's Army didn't take part in this. What about the Uzice

16 Corps? What about all these other corps? That's what I can't understand.

17 And now according to Milosevic, it's the witness who is making all

18 of this up.

19 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, do you want to exhibit these statements?

20 MR. NICE: I think if I may respectfully say so, all the

21 statements including the first statement that the accused was

22 cross-examining on, the corrected statement that I think is included in

23 the package you've got, it's about one page with the corrections on the

24 interpretation, and the earlier statement made by the witness should

25 probably be before you given that he is the sole survivor of these events

Page 21575

1 and although there will be other evidence that will support it, I think

2 insofar as it touches on movement of people to and from Karakaj and

3 thereabouts and insofar as indeed it's supported by the evidence of the

4 movements of the vehicle from Drinatrans, nevertheless, it is the material

5 of the sole survivor and probably should be available to you.

6 JUDGE MAY: The statements are those, first of all to the public

7 or, rather, security services centre, Tuzla, 17th of June, 1992, to the

8 Office of the Prosecutor, 24th of November, 1996, and a third statement is

9 the corrected statement is the 9th of July, 2002. It might be convenient

10 if all three of exhibited together.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 457.

12 MR. NICE: And, Your Honour, we will make arrangements if possible

13 to retain the witness here until tomorrow. We will provide copies of the

14 two interviews today. I can't say that we'll be able to have transcripts

15 of what is on those videos by tomorrow, but we'll do whatever we can to

16 provide a written summary of what they contain, and perhaps we can deal

17 tomorrow morning with the release of the witness finally from court.

18 JUDGE MAY: Witness B-1098, for the moment that concludes your

19 evidence. There has been, as you know, this material which has been

20 found, this interview, and it may be that there are one or two questions

21 that you may have to be asked about that. So if you can, we're going to

22 ask you to remain here to deal with it, and you can talk to the

23 Prosecution if there's anything relevant about it. But subject to that,

24 you are free to go, and thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give your

25 evidence.

Page 21576

1 Yes. Yes.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In relation to this additional

3 examination, there is one thing that is quite unclear, Mr. May. There is

4 one question that is totally unclear.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. 1098 --

7 JUDGE MAY: You can't ask the witness any questions, he's finished

8 giving evidence.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not answering any more

10 questions.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Now what is the point you're making.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is it. I want to say that

13 Mr. Nice asked the witness to explain to him what he wrote in his

14 statement. I assume that this was done by the villagers from Pilica.

15 That's what it says in the statement. And if the witness said in response

16 that this probably pertains to those 300 rather than to what he had

17 testified about, which is not correct. So could you please be so kind as

18 to take the translation. The translation is a good one.

19 On page 3 of this statement that you looked at just now, just like

20 I did, on page 3 of the English statement you will see that it is not

21 correct, that the explanation refers to those 300 in Pilica.

22 Somewhere around the middle of this big paragraph, in English, you

23 have under quotation marks "Let them suffer." It will be quite obvious.

24 You can see it on the left-hand margin. "Let them suffer." It's about

25 after the second-third of that paragraph. And then the text: "[In

Page 21577

1 English] [Previous translation continues] ... which Chetniks had left.

2 And so that there was nobody around, I slowly pulled myself out from under

3 the dead bodies, left the building and hid close by in some --"

4 JUDGE MAY: We can read this. You cannot take up more time with