1 Monday, 19 May 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome.

7 WITNESS: FADIL BANJANOVIC [Resumed]

8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 Examined by Mr. Groome: [Continued]

10 Q. Mr. Banjanovic, when we concluded your testimony a week ago, you

11 were describing a meeting you attended with two people by the name of

12 Grujic and Jovo Mijatovic. I'm going to ask you a few more detailed

13 questions about that meeting, but before I do, could you briefly describe,

14 in a sentence or two, who was Brano Grujic?

15 A. Brano Grujic is a citizen of Zvornik of Serb ethnicity, the number

16 one man in Zvornik, the president of the municipality.

17 Q. And who was Jovo Mijatovic?

18 A. Jovo Mijatovic was one of the leading politicians in the

19 municipality, and he was a deputy in the National Assembly.

20 Q. Finally, are you familiar with a person by the name of Marko

21 Pavlovic?

22 A. Yes, I am.

23 Q. Can you tell us in a sentence who he was?

24 A. He represented himself as the first commander of the army and all

25 the other units situated within the territory of Zvornik municipality.

1 Q. I have one final question before I ask you to continue your

2 testimony. Was there a Serb Crisis Staff in the Zvornik area? And if so,

3 can you tell us where its headquarters was located?

4 A. There was a Crisis Staff for Zvornik municipality based in

5 Zvornik. The president of the staff was Brano Grujic.

6 Q. And was there a building, a particular building that the Crisis

7 Staff used?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Are you familiar -- well, let me now draw your attention back to

10 that meeting. At that meeting, were you given an ultimatum?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What was the ultimatum and who gave it to you?

13 A. On the 26th, in the morning, in Kozluk, in the police station

14 there, Brano Grujic told me that we should immediately move out of Kozluk.

15 He said that when he said "immediately," it meant within an hour.

16 Q. During the course of that meeting, did anyone indicate to you what

17 would happen if you failed to move out of Kozluk within that period of

18 time?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Who advised you what would happen?

21 A. Jovo Mijatovic, a deputy in the National Assembly of Bosnia and

22 Herzegovina, took me to the side and told me that an all-out attack was

23 being prepared on Kozluk, and if we didn't move out that we would all be

24 killed.

25 Q. What did you do after you left that meeting?

1 JUDGE MAY: The reference to "we should move out," who do you mean

2 by that?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only Bosniaks lived in Kozluk. And

4 there were about two to 2.500 Bosniaks left. So the implication was that

5 we Muslims, we Bosniaks, had to move out. That was the order we were

6 given.

7 MR. GROOME:

8 Q. What did you do after you left that meeting?

9 A. First of all, I asked how could we organise this for 2.500 people,

10 how we could leave Kozluk? Brano Grujic told me not to worry about that

11 at all, that transportation was provided and that we would be deported to

12 Serbia.

13 Q. Is there anything else of significance that occurred during that

14 meeting before I ask you what you did after you left the meeting?

15 A. No.

16 Q. What did you do after you left the meeting?

17 A. I left quickly, and I sent a number of my associates to get the

18 people together. I took a loudspeaker and called on the people to come.

19 At the very centre of Kozluk there were long columns of military vehicles,

20 tanks, and quite a large number of troops. It was dreadful.

21 Q. Where -- was it your intention to assemble the people in a central

22 location?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And where did you attempt to assemble the people of Kozluk?

25 A. In the centre of Kozluk, in front of the cultural centre.

1 Q. Now, at the cultural centre, was there anybody that -- there to

2 record the names of the people who were assembling there to leave Kozluk?

3 A. Yes, there was.

4 Q. Can you just describe briefly for us the process under which the

5 names of the people were gathered, those people that were leaving Kozluk

6 that day?

7 A. In front of every house there were several soldiers standing,

8 policemen and paramilitary troops. Those men were pushing the people

9 towards the centre. They were opening fire at them. They were beating

10 them. And the people of Kozluk felt like herds of sheep being shepherded

11 into the centre of Kozluk. In the centre of Kozluk, in front of the

12 cultural home, there were about 2.000 people assembled. There were many

13 soldiers, paramilitary units, policemen, and other armed forces.

14 A group of soldiers together with a group of citizens of Kozluk

15 were taking down the names of people. The citizens came up, they signed

16 their names, upon which they entered, they boarded the parked buses and

17 trucks.

18 Q. Mr. Banjanovic, I'd like to show you Prosecution Exhibit tab 4.

19 THE REGISTRAR: That's Prosecution Exhibit 445.

20 MR. GROOME: Thank you.

21 Q. Prosecution Exhibit 445, tab 4, a document of several pages. Do

22 you recognise that document?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. GROOME: I note for the Chamber a copy of this will be

25 displayed on the monitors, and for the amici and the accused.

1 Q. I want to draw your attention to the first page of that document,

2 and I want to draw your attention specifically to the upper right-hand

3 corner. There's a stamp there. I believe it's in blue ink on the

4 original. Can you please read what that stamp says.

5 A. The Serbian Republic -- sorry. The Serbian Municipality of

6 Zvornik, Municipal Staff of Territorial Defence Zvornik.

7 Q. I want to now draw your attention to the last page of that

8 document and ask you, do you see anywhere on that page your signature?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you describe for the Chamber what is this document,

11 Prosecution 445, tab 4.

12 A. This is a list of the citizens of Kozluk, a list of the heads of

13 households with the number of family members indicated who were moving out

14 of Kozluk in an organised fashion.

15 Q. Was there a similar document prepared for the people from Skocici?

16 A. Yes, there was.

17 Q. Can you describe where Skocici is in relation to Kozluk?

18 A. Skocici is a small locality right next to Kozluk.

19 Q. And were the people from Skocici also required to leave that day?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And did they, too, assemble in the same place as the people from

22 Kozluk?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I'd ask you to take a look at Prosecution Exhibit 445, tab 5. And

25 again, is that -- draw your attention to the upper right-hand corner. Is

1 that the same stamp of the Zvornik Territorial Defence in the upper

2 right-hand corner of the first page of that document?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. And I --

5 A. Municipal Staff of the Territorial Defence of Zvornik.

6 Q. And could I draw your attention once again to the last page and

7 ask you do see your signature on the last page of that document?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. Now with respect to tabs 4 and 5, are these both the original

10 documents as you recall from that day?

11 A. The original documents with the signatures were taken by the

12 members of the Zvornik territorial staff. These are copies.

13 Q. Is it fair that those are carbon copies generated on the same day?

14 They're not photocopies made at a later time?

15 A. No, they were made on the same day, only the first copy was taken

16 by the people from the Zvornik Territorial Defence.

17 Q. Now, in addition to these documents, did you ever receive a

18 document signed by Major Marko Pavlovic?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. And can you briefly describe the circumstances under which you

21 received that document.

22 A. When we had assembled in front of the cultural centre and once we

23 had signed the document saying we were leaving Kozluk, then an envelope

24 was opened containing the instructions or order of the commander of the

25 Zvornik Territorial Defence. I saw that document 15 minutes prior to us

1 being expelled from Kozluk.

2 Q. I'm going to ask that you take a look at Prosecution Exhibit 445,

3 tab 6. I'm going to direct your attention to the upper portion, the

4 typewritten portion of that document. Does that document fairly and

5 accurately depict the document as you initially received it on that day?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I'm going to ask you to read the second paragraph of that document

8 for us.

9 A. "To the above-mentioned adult persons upon their explicit request,

10 without any duress, having expressed the wish that they wish to avoid at

11 all costs the mobilisation into Muslim formations, a pre-settlement has

12 been approved."

13 Q. Was that statement true?

14 A. No, it wasn't.

15 Q. Now, the bottom portion of the document as we have it here in

16 court has some handwritten notes on it. Do you recognise the handwriting

17 on the bottom portion of that document?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. Whose handwriting is it?

20 A. It is mine.

21 Q. And when did you make these handwritten notes on top of the

22 document you received?

23 A. On the 26th, in the afternoon, in Loznica.

24 Q. And do these notes reflect your calculation about the actual

25 number of people who were forced to leave Kozluk on that day?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And can you give us the number of people you counted that were

3 forced to leave Kozluk?

4 A. Five hundred and twenty-five households; 1.822 persons or

5 citizens.

6 Q. Now, sir, can you please describe for the Chamber how the people

7 were physically moved from Kozluk out of Kozluk. What vehicles were used?

8 A. In the centre of Kozluk, there were 17 buses and three trucks with

9 trailers. There were two passenger vehicles as well. And we travelled in

10 that way from the centre of Kozluk as far as Loznica. From Loznica to

11 Ruma, we continued in those same vehicles, and in Ruma --

12 Q. I'm just going to ask you to go step-by-step each portion of the

13 journey. I'd like to ask you a few questions about Loznica.

14 In what republic is Loznica?

15 A. Loznica is in Serbia.

16 Q. And was that the first place that the buses stopped after they

17 left Kozluk?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Were there border controls on the Serbian side of the border as

20 you crossed into Serbia?

21 A. There's a border crossing between Bosnia and Serbia at Sepak that

22 is a bridge across the Drina River. That is the border crossing. And

23 this long column of vehicles crossed over to Serbia there and we were

24 stopped there. We were stopped at Loznica next to the Drina river bank.

25 Q. How long were you in Loznica before you were moved from Loznica?

1 A. We spent about five to six hours there.

2 Q. On the Serbian side of the border did you see any persons you

3 recognised as being paramilitary forces?

4 A. As soon as the column of vehicles stopped, a large number of

5 people walked around the convoy and the men. These men wore different

6 uniforms. They were rather dirty, carrying various types of weapons.

7 They were wearing gloves on their hands. They looked awful, like

8 vultures, and they walked around us, demanding that the girls get off.

9 Q. Did you -- did you or somebody else make contact with the Serbian

10 police regarding that situation and was there a response by the Serbian

11 police?

12 A. We were quite frightened. Many of these men were walking around

13 our buses and trucks. They started pulling people by the hand, demanding

14 money. And then I approached a police patrol, and they just asked me to

15 be quiet and that reinforcements would arrive.

16 Q. Did police reinforcements arrive and protect the convoy?

17 A. Three to four vehicles arrived. Quite a large number of policemen

18 came who were tidy, wearing proper uniforms, and they stood around the

19 convoy and the vehicles so that these others didn't dare approach us any

20 more.

21 Q. And during the time you were in Loznica, were you subjected to any

22 mistreatment whatsoever by the members of the Serbian police force?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Now, do you know a person by the name of Dr. Nikolic?

25 A. Yes, I do.

1 Q. Is he a Serb doctor based in Loznica?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And did you make contact -- I don't believe I've heard the answer.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And did you make contact with him while you were in Loznica?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. Did he come to meet with you along with a representative of the

8 Red Cross?

9 A. They came, they met with me, and they told me that they would give

10 us aid.

11 Q. Did you have any conversation with them regarding what would be

12 required or who would have to give permission before you would continue

13 your journey?

14 A. We asked them for some food because there were quite a lot of

15 children. And we also asked them to help us to move on, because the

16 frontline was there close by, and there were quite a number of

17 paramilitary units there. And they responded that they would do

18 everything they could.

19 Q. And was there anything said about having to get permission or

20 authorisation for you to continue on your journey?

21 A. The people from the Red Cross, from Loznica, said that they would

22 send a letter to Belgrade asking for permission for us to be able to

23 continue on our journey.

24 Q. Did you have a second meeting with the representative of the Red

25 Cross during which they informed you that such a letter or such

1 authorisation was received?

2 A. Yes. In the afternoon, they came with a paper, and they said,

3 "You're lucky. You've got permission to be able to move on."

4 Q. I'm going to ask you to look at a document, Prosecution Exhibit

5 445, tab 7, and my question to you is do you recognise this document?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Could I ask you to read the typing on the upper left-hand corner

8 and continue on to the title of the document.

9 A. "The Republic of Serbia, the Commissariat for Refugees," number,

10 then date 26th of June, 1992, Belgrade.

11 "Staff for the reception and care of refugees." I saw this

12 document on the 26th in the afternoon.

13 Q. The Chamber will have the document to read in full, but just to

14 summarise the contents of the document, does this document authorise -- or

15 did it authorise the people of Kozluk to continue their journey through

16 Serbia?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, after receiving this document, did the convoy move from

19 Loznica to somewhere else?

20 A. The convoy moved on through Serbia in the direction of Ruma.

21 Q. And what time of the day, approximately, did the convoy arrive in

22 Ruma?

23 A. Quite late.

24 Q. And when you arrived at Ruma, what happened?

25 A. The police that escorted us said that there was a train that we

1 would board and that the train would take us further on.

2 Q. And did you and other members of the Kozluk community in fact

3 board a train?

4 A. The police left, and we got off the buses and trucks and boarded

5 the train. The train had several carriages, and there were quite a number

6 of those intended for cattle.

7 Q. Can you describe what, if anything, occurred while the people of

8 Kozluk were boarding these trains?

9 A. As we were boarding the train, we were stoned. A large number of

10 citizens threw stones at us, chairs, shouting, "Turks. Alija's army."

11 And quite a number of people were injured on that occasion because this

12 large crowd of 2.000 people were boarding the carriages for livestock.

13 The stones were raining on us, pieces of wood, and quite a number of

14 people were injured. Some in the head, started bleeding.

15 Q. Sir, once the people were loaded onto the train, where did the

16 train go?

17 A. The train went -- or, rather, we were told we were going to

18 Subotica. And as we travelled, in several other places, stones were

19 thrown at us, and the glass was broken, so the people didn't dare get up.

20 So we had this stoning on a number of occasions.

21 Q. The train that you boarded and took between Ruma and Subotica, was

22 it an ordinary train -- my question to you is were there other people not

23 from Kozluk on that train, or was it a train specially arranged for the

24 people of Kozluk?

25 A. It was a special train, a train intended for cattle.

1 Q. Now, when you arrived at Subotica, can you tell us approximately

2 when you arrived in Subotica?

3 A. I can't remember exactly, but I know that the trip took a long

4 time and that we arrived in Subotica during daytime. I know that the

5 people were tired, bloody, quite a number of children were sick.

6 Q. The first night in Subotica, where did you and the other people on

7 the train, where did they sleep?

8 A. In Subotica, we slept on stones in the wagons, in the carriages,

9 in the fields. There were about 2.000 people. The conditions were

10 appalling. They were hungry, ill. They spent several days in terrible

11 conditions.

12 Q. Did there come a time when the people were moved to another

13 location?

14 A. On that occasion, we were visited by members of the Red Cross.

15 Quite a significant number of journalists visited us. They filmed us as

16 if we were animals in a circus. They spent a lot of time filming us.

17 People were given first aid. Some of them had injured heads. They then

18 promised to transport us to Palic, to transfer us to Palic, that some kind

19 of a camp or collection centre for those refugees.

20 Q. And were -- were you and other members -- or the other people from

21 Kozluk transferred to this Palic, this refugee centre?

22 A. Yes, we were.

23 Q. Were there guards at this refugee centre Palic?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you describe what you learnt about the guards that were

1 guarding people of Kozluk in Palic.

2 A. Well, they boasted that they had been in the battlefields in

3 Croatia and Bosnia. They kept saying -- shouting and saying that they had

4 killed quite a lot of Turks. They had a terrible appearance. They had

5 beards. And by the way they looked, you could see that they were

6 combatants.

7 Q. Did the guards at this camp say anything to the people who were

8 detained there regarding what was required for them to be able to leave

9 that camp?

10 A. Well, whoever had money, they would sort that person's papers out

11 through connections. They'd sort out passports for them. They were taken

12 away, taken to the station and then they would go to Hungary. Those who

13 didn't have money remained there. They remained in Palic, in the camp in

14 Palic.

15 Q. Did there come a time when you were able to make contact with some

16 friends of yours in a factory in Serbia?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were you able to make certain arrangements with these people to

19 assist you and the other people from Kozluk?

20 A. It was the management of the Suboticanka factory, which is located

21 in Subotica, and there was a group of Hungarians there who were part of

22 the management. As they cooperated well with the same factory in my

23 place, in Kozluk, they brought juice to us. I asked them to assist us, to

24 help us get passports and photographs because we didn't have any money,

25 and this was simply not a possibility for us.

1 Q. And did they make arrangements for photographers to come to take

2 passport photos, and did they take a collection of money to assist in the

3 purchase of passports?

4 A. Over several days they brought about five photographers who made

5 photographs for the entire population. They came with the chief of

6 police, and in front of us they handed over to him a cheque as a means of

7 payment for those passports.

8 Q. Approximately how many Serbian passports were issued to the people

9 of Kozluk during this time period?

10 A. Over a thousand.

11 Q. I'm going to ask you to take a look at Prosecution Exhibit 445,

12 tab 8. These are two passports. A copy of the photograph page of one of

13 them will be displayed on the screen before you. I would draw your

14 attention to Saha Hadzic's passport. Can you see it on the screen before

15 you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you know this person?

18 A. This is a citizen from Kozluk. Her name is Saha Hadzic.

19 Q. Was she one of the people who was forced to leave Kozluk in the

20 way that you've described before the Chamber?

21 A. Yes, she is.

22 Q. And is this a photograph of the passport issued by the Republic of

23 Serbia during this time period?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I'd ask you to take a look at the other photograph page of the

1 second passport. And do you recognise the two people -- if you look on

2 the screen before you, it's displayed. Do you recognise the two people

3 here?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. Are they two people from Kozluk that were forcibly removed from

6 Kozluk on the 26th of June?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I'm going to draw your attention now to the stamp, the issue stamp

9 in this particular passport. And can you -- can you describe -- or I'd

10 ask you just to read, who was this passport issued by?

11 A. Municipal Assembly of Subotica.

12 Q. Sir, could I ask you to look on the monitor. The page is

13 displayed on the monitor before you.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Who issued this passport?

16 A. The secretariat in Subotica.

17 Q. Of what governmental office?

18 A. Serbia.

19 Q. And what's the date of issue?

20 A. The 29th of June.

21 Q. Now, after passports were issued, were people then placed on

22 trains and sent to the Hungarian border?

23 A. Groups of citizens, as they received their passports, left for the

24 borders in groups. They got on the trains and headed for Hungary and

25 Austria.

1 Q. The trains from Subotica to Hungary and Austria, were they

2 specially arranged trains or were they regularly scheduled passenger

3 trains?

4 A. I don't know, but I think that these trains had been organised.

5 MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask now that Prosecution Exhibit 445,

6 tab 9, be placed on the overhead projector.

7 Q. Sir, there's a map being placed to your left. Do you recognise

8 this map? You can look to the left. The original is on the projector to

9 your left. Do you recognise this map?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. Who made the markings on this map?

12 A. I did.

13 Q. And what do -- what does the line that you've drawn on this map

14 indicate?

15 A. Well, this is the route we took. It is this route that was used

16 when we were deported.

17 Q. I would ask -- thank you -- that we start from the bottom. I'd

18 ask you to start at Kozluk, and if you would just trace with the pointer

19 the journey that you and the other members of the Kozluk community took,

20 and please indicate where it was you crossed into Serbia. If you'd do it

21 on the -- to your left, yes, please.

22 A. Kozluk, which is in Bosnia and Herzegovina, is here. We have the

23 Sepak place on the Drina River, and there is a border crossing there.

24 This is the point at which we crossed into Serbia. And we arrived between

25 Banja Koviljaca and Loznica. We spent a certain period of time there, and

1 then we continued on this route in the direction of Sabac and Ruma. We

2 got on a train in Ruma, and about 2.000 people were transported on that

3 train in livestock carriages, and we were stoned on several occasions.

4 The train went in the direction of Subotica.

5 In Subotica, we were placed in accommodation. We slept near the

6 railway. There were quite a few journalists and quite a large number of

7 people had been injured. And then a group of good Hungarians helped us to

8 go to Palic from Subotica. They were from the Red Cross.

9 Q. During the course of this journey, were you ever free to simply

10 leave the convoy and travel throughout Serbia or go where you pleased?

11 Were you ever free to do that?

12 A. No, no, I wasn't.

13 Q. In your mind, or what did you observe that indicated to you that

14 the people of Kozluk weren't simply free to disperse into Serbia and go

15 where they wished?

16 A. First of all, we weren't allowed to take anything with us.

17 Secondly, while we were being deported, we were escorted by the police.

18 We were beaten. We were starving during the transport.

19 We arrived in Subotica. We were taken to -- it wasn't even a

20 station, it was a place where there were a lot of police. It was some

21 sort of a dead end, and we couldn't move. We didn't have any means. We

22 didn't have any documents. We were hostages of those policies. We were

23 taken to Palic, which was a camp of a closed kind. It had guards. Where

24 could we have gone? Nowhere.

25 MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask that the witness's monitor be placed

1 so that he can see something displayed on Sanction.

2 Q. Sir, you mentioned in your testimony that international

3 journalists were present and took pictures of some of these events. I'm

4 going to ask you to look at some pictures contained in a video on the

5 screen before you, and then I'm going to ask if you recognise the pictures

6 and the people in them.

7 I'd ask that we now play it.

8 [Videotape played]

9 MR. GROOME:

10 Q. Do you recognise the people in these photographs?

11 A. This is the train that was used to deport us from Ruma to

12 Subotica. Just those few carriages. The others were livestock carriages

13 and didn't have any windows. These citizens of Kozluk, Mehic Alija, Jakic

14 Zehrudin, Muhamed Kalabankovic [phoen], Mulajbisevic Sana. A large number

15 of fellow citizens of mine with small children. There were women, people

16 who had been injured, people who had suffered a lot.

17 MR. GROOME: I have no further questions.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Banjanovic, first of all, I would like to ask

21 you about this stay of yours in Serbia. As far as I can understand,

22 people in Serbia helped you. They helped you inasmuch as you were

23 refugees. Am I right or not?

24 A. Well, let me tell you, if it's assistance when you're surrounded

25 and prevented from leaving, if one can call being stoned three or five

1 times assistance, if you can call the fact that 30 people were wounded is

2 a form of assistance, sleeping in carriages and next to carriages called

3 assistance, and if we have to listen to stories about how many people were

4 killed in Bosnia and in Croatia, if we call this assistance, then that's

5 assistance.

6 Q. It seems that, in your opinion, Serbia shouldn't have allowed you

7 to pass through its territory. Anything could have happened to you in

8 Bosnia in that case. So it seems that we were wrong to help you.

9 A. Serbia shouldn't have sent those paramilitary forces to Kozluk,

10 the forces that maltreated honourable Serbs as well as us Bosniaks. And

11 the forces that deported, that caused the deportation of citizens of

12 Kozluk and other citizens.

13 Q. Mr. Banjanovic, let's not go into what you are now claiming. That

14 is quite contrary to what you have been explaining.

15 All the people that you mentioned and what you have read out from

16 these documents here, although you only read parts of the documents, none

17 of this concerns Serbia. Read it out again.

18 Provide tab number 4 again, the yellow square from which you read

19 out the words "Crisis Staff," et cetera, "Municipality of Zvornik," and so

20 on, and read it out again. Read it all out.

21 JUDGE MAY: What's the question?

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. May, the question is:

23 What does the document say?

24 JUDGE MAY: We've got the document. We've seen it. Now, what do

25 you want to ask the witness?

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, for example, it says, "The

2 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina." And then beneath that it

3 says, "The Serbian Autonomous District, Semberija and Majevica," then

4 beneath that, it says, "In the Serbian municipality of Zvornik," and then

5 it says -- I don't know what else it says because I can't remember any

6 more. So we're talking about a different state.

7 Q. Isn't that correct, Mr. Banjanovic? We're not talking about

8 Serbia.

9 A. Another state called Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the commander was

10 from the Republic of Serbia, a certain Marko Pavlovic. And the

11 paramilitary formation called the Nis paramilitary formations dominated

12 there, the Kovice from Loznica, and there were many other paramilitary

13 formations which were in Zvornik, Kozluk, and other places.

14 Q. Mr. Banjanovic, you know a witness with whom I'm going to discuss

15 the subject of paramilitary formations but you must be aware of the fact

16 that authorities in Serbia cracked down on paramilitary formations, and as

17 far as volunteer units are concerned, their significance was negligible

18 with -- in comparison to the volunteer units in the Bosnia and Herzegovina

19 army. Are you aware of that?

20 A. Mr. Milosevic, as far as I and the citizens of Bosnia and

21 Herzegovina and the citizens of Serbia are aware, all the prisoners, all

22 the criminals, you let them go free. You released them from prison and

23 they acted as vultures and contaminated the good relations between the

24 Serbs and the Bosniaks in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

25 Q. My dear Mr. Banjanovic, I think you are very badly informed with

1 regard to this matter. No one released prisoners of any kind from prison.

2 Not in Serbia, either, apart from those who had served their sentence.

3 Someone has provided you with bad information.

4 A. The people who were in Kozluk told me about this from the Zuti

5 unit.

6 Q. Well, were people from Serbia in Kozluk?

7 A. Yes, from Loznica, Valjevo, Nis, from Kragujevac.

8 Q. Very well, Mr. Banjanovic, it seems that there were people who

9 came from the entire area of Serb to Kozluk; is that correct?

10 A. They did come to Bosnia.

11 Q. Let's just clear this matter up because we're not going to have

12 too much time.

13 In tab 6, and we can see your handwriting there too, this

14 document, Mr. Banjanovic, let's try and be objective at least to a certain

15 extent. If we view this from the position of the Serbian authorities, the

16 Serbian organs or those of Yugoslavia, if you like, here it says: "We

17 hereby request the authorities of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to

18 allow safe and organised passage of persons on the list to the border zone

19 with Hungary. These persons, adults, have been allowed to move out at

20 their explicit request without constraint." As you say, it's not written

21 in the Serbian version but in the Bosnian version. And then it goes on:

22 "And because of their desires they informed us at all costs to avoid

23 mobilisation into Muslim formations. This request has been granted. They

24 have been allowed to leave for passage for the territory of the Federal

25 Republic of Yugoslavia and other Western European countries. Heads of

1 families confirm with their signatures that their departure is the result

2 of their own wish and that it has been not been induced by any repressive

3 measures. The families that have decided to move out are aware of the

4 risks to their property which they're leaving in the zone of combat

5 operations and they have been informed that the authorities in Zvornik

6 cannot assume full responsibility for the belongings they leave in their

7 houses and apartments."

8 I have just read out what it says here, although there are certain

9 grammatical errors. And then it says the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

10 Herzegovina, it says the Serbian Municipality of Zvornik, it says the

11 staff of Territorial Defence, the Autonomous Region of Semberija and

12 Majevica.

13 So the authorities of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, that is

14 to say of the Republic of Serbia, received a letter in which they were

15 requested to allow you -- to make it possible for you who had signed that

16 list, because you wanted to go to Western Europe, they wanted to allow you

17 and make it possible for you to go there.

18 How did the authorities of Yugoslavia react? They tried to help

19 you. You showed -- you were shown a map here. You went to Loznica

20 immediately because that's at the border. That's the Municipality of

21 Loznica; isn't that correct? Isn't that right, Mr. Banjanovic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. People tried to help you. They came to help you. You say that

24 there were various hooligans, various thugs around you. That's what you

25 said, when you moved -- when you crossed into Serbia; isn't that correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And then a police patrol turned up, a regular police patrol.

3 Isn't that what you said?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Didn't that police patrol, didn't they say to you that they would

6 ask for reinforcements? Isn't that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did reinforcements arrive?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you say that they behaved correctly and had a correct

11 appearance, which isn't the case for the other people who were at the

12 border? There was a war in Bosnia. The border was there.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. The police protected you from them, didn't they? Isn't that

15 correct? Yes or no.

16 A. How could that mob, how could those people have been in Serbia, a

17 neighbouring state?

18 Q. How could you be there?

19 A. We were forced to be there.

20 Q. A war was raging there. There was a conflict. Did you tell the

21 police that you were forced to go there?

22 A. Mr. Milosevic, you are forgetting that there were over 3.000

23 people, armed people who had forced those people to go to the centre.

24 JUDGE MAY: Don't interrupt. Now, allow the witness to finish

25 what he wants to say. Let him finish.

1 Mr. Witness, if you want to reply, you can, and you're not to be

2 interrupted. Now, do you want to add something?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. You're forgetting that

4 this was forcible deportation. When these people were taken away, within

5 one hour a number of people had been wounded, about ten houses had been

6 torched, looting had started. There was torture, beatings, attempts at

7 shooting people. We were loaded onto trucks, trailers. That document,

8 that written document, and you say that it is grammatically incorrect,

9 your people made that document out, the people from the Serbian

10 municipality. It was signed by Commander Marko Pavlovic who is from

11 Sombor in Serbia, and this was given us to about 15 minutes before we were

12 put onto the vehicles. This was forcible deportation. It wasn't on a

13 voluntary basis, and we were escorted by several thousand paramilitary

14 troops and police in Serbia on the Drina River in Loznica. Thanks to the

15 local police alone, we were saved from those vultures who had already

16 started selecting young girls and had started snatching necklaces and

17 rings from them and had started attacking us. That's the truth. There is

18 no other truth.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Banjanovic, you say that I am forgetting all this. I don't

21 forget what I heard from your testimony. I've heard about Kozluk. I

22 heard about the place called Kozluk only now during your testimony. I'd

23 never heard about that place before. I don't know what -- what it would

24 be well-known for. But didn't you yourself say that as soon as you had

25 crossed the Drina you were protected by the regular police force from

1 Republika Srpska? They protected you.

2 I assume that there was violence there, that people behaved in

3 various manners and that this could be described as violence, but weren't

4 you protected by the police of Republika Srpska there, of the Republic of

5 Serbia there?

6 A. Mr. Milosevic, Kozluk is well-known as a multinational place, and

7 there were Serbs and Bosniaks who lived, they were on good terms for

8 hundreds of years, and it was well-known for this.

9 When we crossed into Serbia, we were attacked by several groups of

10 people wearing various sorts of uniforms, wearing gloves. They were dirty

11 people, they were armed people. This was the first contact we had with

12 Serbia. We were attacked in Loznica.

13 Q. Mr. Banjanovic, I recognise the fact that having the status of a

14 refugee when travelling or fleeing from a given territory, I recognise the

15 fact that it's not pleasant to have such a status. My question was a

16 quite specific one. There were various people, various individuals who

17 wanted to attack you, but you were protected by the police in Serbia.

18 A. The police protected us and escorted us all the time from Loznica,

19 from Ruma, from Subotica, and Palic. They protected us and made sure that

20 we wouldn't go anywhere else. And they made sure that we remained in that

21 convoy of death.

22 Q. First of all, there was no convoy of death. Was anyone killed?

23 A. More than 20 people were injured in Ruma. I was personally

24 wounded. Citizens stoned us, beat us with chairs. They called us

25 balijas, and they told us to go to Turkey.

1 After Ruma, we were stoned in one place. The train was stoned.

2 The stone -- the train had been quite damaged. This had been filmed by

3 international journalists in Subotica.

4 Q. Very well. Gutman filmed that. You said that windows were broken

5 and so on and you said that you were transported in carriages for

6 livestock.

7 A. I said the first two carriages were for passengers and the others

8 were livestock carriages. I repeated this on two occasions and showed it

9 on the monitor. There were two to three carriages which were passenger

10 carriages and the other ones were carriages for livestock.

11 Q. Where were these photographs taken, the ones that you were shown

12 at the end?

13 A. In Subotica.

14 Q. I don't see any windows that were broken. All the windows are

15 intact on those carriages. Did they change the carriages? What happened?

16 Or out of gratitude for the assistance that you were provided with by

17 Serbia, did you decide to taint the reputation of these people as much as

18 you can?

19 A. Serbia's reputation can't be tainted. You did that. But the

20 doctors checked the bodies of people and provided first aid to over 30

21 people in Subotica.

22 Q. Well, who, which doctors provided you with first aid? Who

23 examined you? Who examined the people who had been injured? Out of the

24 2.000 people, there were 30 who were injured in various incidents.

25 A. They weren't incidents.

1 Q. What was it then?

2 A. Well, we were stoned in a place called Ruma. A group of Serbs

3 stoned us Bosniaks.

4 Q. How do you know that they were Serbs?

5 A. Well, because they said, "Go to Turkey, Alija's army."

6 Q. They called you Alija's army?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And in Subotica, only the Hungarians helped you, the Serbs didn't;

9 is that right?

10 A. I don't know who they were, but the doctors who helped us were

11 good. They provided the children with water. The Red Cross arrived.

12 They provided food. The doctors provided assistance. And I must say that

13 we owe a lot to those people. There are good people in Serbia too.

14 Q. I see that for what is commendable, you wish to attribute to

15 Hungarians from Subotica. And of course I don't exclude that possibility,

16 because there are many Hungarians living in Subotica.

17 As for everything that is bad, that you attribute to the Serbs.

18 Let's make that clear.

19 A. Not to the Serbs but to you who were leading your men over there.

20 Q. Very well, Mr. Banjanovic. I don't know where you see any

21 negative links between the authorities in Serbia and your treatment, but

22 Mr. Groome asked you whether anyone mistreated you, that is among the Serb

23 policemen, and you said no.

24 A. No.

25 Q. So that's right, isn't it? Not only did they not mistreat you but

1 they also protected you. And then you go on to say that Dr. Nikolic

2 arrived. You mention Dr. Nikolic. Judging by his surname, I assume that

3 he's a Serb. Is that right? Is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And the Red Cross?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And they said that they would give you aid, and they did, didn't

8 they?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. A moment ago, you said that you asked them to help you to move on;

11 is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So you asked them to help you to go on, to go towards Western

14 Europe, which was your destination, wasn't it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Then what deportation are you talking about or of any involvement

17 on the part of anybody of Serbia in this when you asked the Red Cross and

18 this Dr. Nikolic to help you to move on, to make progress along your

19 journey. And then we have in tab 7 here --

20 JUDGE MAY: Now, wait a moment. Wait a moment. One thing at a

21 time. What is being suggested is that you weren't being deported at all.

22 You were asking to go to Western Europe or somewhere, and the Serbs were

23 helping you. That's what's being suggested. What is your comment as to

24 that?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, on the 26th in the

1 morning, the town mayor of Zvornik, Brano Grujic, gave us orders that

2 within an hour, we should assemble in the centre of Kozluk and to leave

3 Kozluk immediately. So we didn't leave on our own accord but following

4 orders from the front man, the one man in Zvornik, Brano Grujic.

5 Secondly, we were forced out of our homes. Next to each of our

6 house, there were several soldiers, paramilitary men, policemen who were

7 shepherding the people like herds into the centre of town.

8 And thirdly, in Kozluk itself, unseen torture started. Houses

9 were torched. People were beaten, mistreated. Several men were wounded.

10 This was a scene of horror. In less than an hour, the men were boarded

11 onto trucks with trailers and 17 or 18 buses. More than 2.000 men got in,

12 and under police escort as well as accompanied by troops and paramilitary

13 units, we were taken to the border.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. But Mr. May, you will agree

15 that there's no point in hearing the same story for a second time. This

16 is not in answer to my question.

17 JUDGE MAY: Of course not. But, Mr. Milosevic, what he's saying

18 is that they were forced out of their homes, put on -- put on a train and

19 driven across Serbia and then forced out. So he's saying it's all part of

20 the same story. You must allow him to give his evidence about it.

21 Now, you were asked specifically, and you can deal with this,

22 about the role of Dr. Nikolic, and it's suggested to you that he was

23 assisting you. Now, can you comment on that?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were brought to Serbia, and the

25 vehicles were parked in the form of a column in the town of Loznica. A

1 large number of paramilitary troops tried to get the young women off, to

2 mistreat us, and then I --

3 JUDGE MAY: Would you just concentrate for a moment on the role of

4 Dr. Nikolic. We did hear that evidence. Was he assisting you?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well. Yes, Mr. Milosevic, your next

7 question.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I knew Mr. Nikolic, and he did

9 help me.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. What was Nikolic?

12 A. Nikolic was a doctor in Zvornik, in Bosnia, and we knew him. And

13 then the Red Cross and he arrived, and we asked them to give us food and

14 water. And the Red Cross did bring us water and food for the children.

15 Q. Mr. Banjanovic, I will come back to the events in Kozluk. I wish

16 to clear up, first, what happened in Serbia. The authorities in Serbia,

17 the Red Cross of Serbia, the police that protected you in Loznica had to

18 deal with a column of buses and trucks of refugees from Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you talk to any representatives of the authorities of Serbia

22 except for the police whom you -- who you asked to protect you?

23 A. With the Red Cross and the local police.

24 Q. Very well. And you asked the local police to protect you and they

25 did. As for the Red Cross, as you said a moment ago, you asked them to

1 assist you and to help you continue your journey; is that right?

2 A. All those documents that were written were written by them. This

3 was no mobilisation. And quite a number things were added artificially.

4 They just told us for us to be able to pass through Serbia, they would

5 have to ask Belgrade and that they would send a letter there.

6 Q. Very well. Now, let's look at tab 7. On that same day, you get a

7 reply. So the authorities in Serbia -- the column of refugees has crossed

8 into Serbia, the buses and trucks. The staff for refugees in Loznica asks

9 the Commission for Refugees, because in the heading, it says Commission

10 for Refugees, Belgrade, the 26th of June, they are replying on the same

11 day. They're not delaying for a moment. And this document says "Staff

12 for the Reception and Care of Refugees."

13 "We examined the written statements of 1.822 persons in 17 buses,

14 three trucks with trailers and two passenger vehicles from Kozluk, Zvornik

15 Municipality (who state that of their own free will and without pressure,

16 they wish to leave the territory of Yugoslavia and travel to Western

17 European countries) and are now refugees temporarily residing in

18 Loznica..." That is what it says. This is what Belgrade is responding

19 to.

20 And it says that they: "... found that the written statements of

21 the above-mentioned persons, given" -- it's rather illegible because it is

22 a poor copy -- "on their own behalf as well as on behalf of their underage

23 family members and children are valid since they were given voluntarily

24 and expressed their will as to where they want to live, which is one of

25 the fundamental human rights.

1 "In view of the above, we believe that the requests of these

2 persons should be met" - and I'm afraid I can't read it - "enable their

3 probably realisation in the sense of the intentions contained in the

4 statements submitted."

5 This was the response they gave you. So I'm saying -- I'm talking

6 about what happened to you in Serbia, because as you know, I was the

7 president of Serbia, and I am interested in the attitude of the

8 authorities, the Red Cross, the Commission for Refugees, and all other

9 entities in Serbia.

10 So the column arrived, the police protected you, the Red Cross

11 came, you asked them to assist you, they did assist you. You asked the

12 police to protect you, they protected you. You asked them to make it

13 possible for you to move on, they did, and you got as far as Subotica; is

14 that right? And then you say that you slept on stones there. I don't

15 know whether in the whole of Vojvodina there are stone beds. In

16 Vojvodina, certainly not.

17 JUDGE MAY: This is not a question. These are endless speeches,

18 endless speeches by you, all of which we'll be able to hear in due course.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know where he found rocks in

20 Vojvodina. Maybe he took some rocks with him from Bosnia..

21 JUDGE MAY: That is a question. At last we have a question.

22 Would you like to answer that? Just a moment. Let him answer.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Any answer is superfluous. The

24 mistreatment we suffered in Serbia is forgotten, the heads injured in

25 Ruma --

1 JUDGE MAY: Don't let's keep this going. Let's deal with it as

2 quickly as we can. It's said that you were exaggerating when you said

3 they slept on rocks. Now, is that right or not?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We slept on a side railway track.

5 We were not in the station. We were separated on a dead-end railway track

6 and that is where we spent the night, in those carriages. Many people

7 slept alongside the carriages because there wasn't enough room for 2.000

8 men. People were hungry and thirsty. And a number of international media

9 companies filmed this Golgotha, this suffering and this mistreatment and

10 injuring of people.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Therefore, the media in Serbia did not conceal as to what was

13 happening to refugees from Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Unfortunately, unfortunately, it is certainly not pleasant to be a

16 refugee. You said that some angry people threw stones at you, which is

17 quite possible, but the police protected you, as was its duty to do. You

18 say that some 30 people were injured. I don't believe there were that

19 many, but still, the medical staff assisted you and treated them.

20 Incidents are quite possible.

21 My question to you is: What was the reaction of the authorities,

22 meaning both the police and the medical authorities?

23 Now, let's us move on.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes, let us move on. We've heard the evidence. We've

25 heard the points you've made. There's no point going over it over and

1 over again, and we've got the documents. So let us move on.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us move on. When I look at

3 these documents, Mr. May, what else could the authorities of Serbia do, I

4 ask you? I beg your pardon. First of all, they say it's a fundamental

5 human right which they wish to protect.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. And you said at one point, and I took note of that -- no, no.

8 I'll ask you that later on.

9 Let us see what happened in Palic. You say that you were taken to

10 a camp in Palic. Do you know that Palic is the most significant resort in

11 that area?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. And they put you up in their own tourist centre. There was no

14 camp at Palic. They put up the refugees in their favourite tourist

15 centre, the favourite tourist resort in the environs of Subotica.

16 Everyone is listening to this and they know what Palic is. What kind of a

17 camp are you talking about?

18 A. You're not telling the truth. They didn't take us to any hostel

19 or hotel. They took us to a meadow with tents. And there was a wire

20 around it, and there was a gate there, and there were guards with beards

21 who boasted as to how many people they had killed in Croatia and Bosnia.

22 You can't call that a tourist resort.

23 Q. Mr. Banjanovic, are we talking about the 26th of June, 1992?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When did all these bearded men have time to kill those people in

1 Bosnia and then come back to Palic in Subotica? What are you talking

2 about? Why are you making up these things?

3 A. The attack on Zvornik occurred on the 8th of April, and these men

4 boasted that they were there in Zvornik and did what they did. And this

5 was on the 26th and the 29th of June. So it's three months later. And

6 Croatia was even before that.

7 Q. Mr. Banjanovic, why are you making up these things? Are you

8 saying that in Palic you were kept in a kind of concentration camp?

9 A. I'll repeat: We were kept in a meadow, in tents. There was a

10 wire fence around it, and there were guards wearing beards, frightening

11 people and demanding money from people to get them passports. For us,

12 that was a camp.

13 Q. Now, let's clear things up, please. Mr. Groome asked you how many

14 Serbian passports you received, and you said at the end you all got these

15 passports, didn't you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. First, do you know that there are no Serbian passports? They

18 don't exist.

19 A. Everything is Serbian over there, including Serbian passports.

20 Q. But you held in your hand a passport which says the Socialist

21 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in the Serbo-Croatian language and in a

22 foreign language, probably either French or English. So it's a Yugoslav

23 passport. I didn't pay attention when I was looking through your

24 documents, but you yourself read out the date of issue of that passport,

25 the 29th.

1 So this happened to you on the 26th, you travelled, you arrived

2 there, all this was over by the 29th. Didn't they then help you to give

3 you passports because you wanted to travel abroad? You wanted to go to

4 Hungary. Wasn't this a kind of assistance to make it possible for you to

5 get travel documents with which you could travel unhindered abroad like

6 free citizens?

7 A. You are distorting things. It wasn't three days. The passports

8 were issued over a period of about ten days. They were issued in groups,

9 depending on how much money people had. The more people paid -- this was

10 public crime committed by those people in Palic. The guards, the people

11 who had money paid plenty for it, got a passport. Others waited for ten

12 days in the meadow in tents, without water and under extremely difficult

13 conditions. You call that a tourist resort? That was a camp.

14 Q. Mr. Banjanovic, I would spend up to a month on voluntary work

15 drives in tents, and I never considered myself being a camp. And you were

16 in tents in Palic next to the lake of Palic, and what are you saying? The

17 people who had money, they got a passport in two days and those who didn't

18 got it in ten days?

19 A. But you forget that those hosts of ours, as you call them, and

20 they were our guards, were men under arms, very dirty, people who kept

21 talking about fighting in Croatia and Bosnia.

22 Q. Very well. I assume they did lecture you about fighting in

23 Croatia and Bosnia, but somehow it doesn't seem to fit that people came to

24 help you from the Suboticanka factory, they gave you fruit juices, they

25 drank with you, you have photographs taken with them next to the train, a

1 refugee train, travelling. They don't even treat you as refugees because

2 you were still citizens of an existing state of Yugoslavia, so they helped

3 you to get passports in the closest Secretariat of Internal Affairs, that

4 is in Subotica; is that right?

5 JUDGE MAY: What is the question? He's told you that they

6 received passports. He's given his evidence about it. Now, what is the

7 question?

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Wasn't that assistance? Was your intention to go to Western

10 Europe?

11 A. It would be assistance if we were not in the camp, if we did not

12 have to pay dearly for those passports. It would be assistance if we were

13 not mistreated. Those who had a large sum of money got passports. Those

14 of us who didn't have money, waited for a long time.

15 Q. And how long did you have to wait for it, those of you who didn't

16 have money?

17 A. Five, six, seven, eight days.

18 Q. Let the citizens of Yugoslavia hear you that you had to wait all

19 of five, six, seven or eight days to get a passport. And then all those

20 with passports, let them remind themselves how many of them had to wait

21 for five, six, seven, or eight days to get a passport, for the formalities

22 to be completed when one normally applies for a passport, for a passport

23 to be printed, registered, and handed over to the recipient.

24 A. Waiting in one's own apartment in one's own town is one thing, and

25 waiting in a meadow in a tent without food or water, with war cries is

1 something else.

2 Q. So you're claiming that there were some Indians surrounding you,

3 shouting war cries.

4 A. They were your Chetniks waging war in Croatia and Zvornik.

5 Q. Mr. Banjanovic, I had no Chetniks of my own. As you know full

6 well, Mr. Banjanovic, but I see that you have every intention of giving

7 that impression. But never mind. Let's go on.

8 Let's go back now to your Kozluk, which, as you say, is a

9 well-known town. I really do regret that I had never heard of it. You

10 say -- tell me, please, on that day, the 26th of May [as interpreted], how

11 many soldiers were there in your Kozluk, of all possible types, troops,

12 paramilitary, police, everything?

13 A. There was about 1.000 to 1.300 households. In front of each there

14 was two to three soldiers. So there were more than 3.000 members of the

15 army, paramilitary units, police force, Territorial Defence units. I had

16 never seen so many men of that kind, because Kozluk was surrounded by

17 Serbian villages. So there were more than 3.000 of them.

18 Q. Very well, Mr. Banjanovic. As you were president of the local

19 commune there and you were familiar with what was going on there, tell me,

20 please, how can you explain the purpose for which those 3.000 men under

21 arms had come to Kozluk? Were 3.000 of them needed to force you to move

22 out or do anything else?

23 A. For several days Radio Loznica, which is in Serbia, and Radio

24 Zvornik, which is in Zvornik in Bosnia, exerted media pressure, claiming

25 that we had guns, weapons, that we were well-armed. Then an APC of the

1 Yugoslav People's Army with the words "The Drina Corps" inscribed on it

2 was roaming around Kozluk and the surrounding places, calling on the

3 people to surrender the weapons and to surrender the people we were

4 hiding. So there was a very strong media campaign on the radio and

5 through loudspeakers.

6 Q. First of all, there were no Yugoslav People's Army troops there

7 but there was only the Territorial Defence or the army of Republika

8 Srpska. There was no JNA forces there in Kozluk. Do you know that or

9 not?

10 A. Colonel Milosevic introduced himself in Kozluk to us as being the

11 commander of the Drina Corps. He stated this at meetings. He told this

12 to international people.

13 Q. When was this, please?

14 A. In May, June.

15 Q. So not during these events.

16 A. No, not on the 26th but before the 26th.

17 Q. Were there JNA members involved in these events?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Who was there from among the JNA?

20 A. There were people in uniform. For us, they were the army.

21 Q. Very well. That is sufficient. Tell me, was anyone killed on the

22 26th of June in Kozluk?

23 A. A few days before that, Medo Marhocevic was killed.

24 Q. Wait a minute, please. That was a few days before that. I can't

25 enter into each individual incident. Just tell me, on the 26th, the day

1 we're talking about when you were allegedly forced to leave Kozluk, was

2 anyone killed?

3 A. Galib Hadzic was seriously injured in the centre of Kozluk. A

4 soldier shot at him.

5 Q. I see. He was wounded. But was anyone killed?

6 A. No, no one was killed.

7 Q. I see. You describe here that from all sides you were surrounded

8 and that you were beaten and shot at. That was the description you gave.

9 A. We were surrounded. We were herded into the centre of Kozluk.

10 There was shooting on all sides to intimidate us, and houses were torched.

11 Q. I have taken note - and this can certainly be found in the

12 transcript and on the tape it can be found as we are speaking the same

13 language - you said they were shooting at the people. That is what you

14 said, they shot at the people.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Yet you say that no one was killed.

17 A. Galib Hadzic was seriously wounded.

18 Q. I see. There were 3.000 soldiers shooting at the people and this

19 Galib Hadzic, one, is wounded?

20 A. They were shooting into the air, they were shooting at the houses.

21 Q. Oh, into the air. I see. And torching houses. I see. Then you

22 say that your original documents were seized by members of the TO of

23 Zvornik.

24 A. The commander of the military police, known as Studeni. He was

25 head of the deportation.

1 Q. I'm not interested nor do I know him nor do I know your president

2 of the municipality. So you're talking about the TO of Zvornik. Are you

3 talking about Zvornik in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You say that these people that were rounding you up were listing

6 you down together with the citizens of Kozluk?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So if they were forcing you out, why did the citizens of Kozluk

9 make lists? Why was that necessary at all?

10 A. There was a commission in front of the cultural centre, and people

11 signed their names on this list. And once they had done that, they were

12 shoved into the buses and trucks without any luggage and without any food.

13 Q. I can't believe that they left without luggage or food. And you

14 say they were shoved into trucks and buses and trailers. And in this

15 document, it says: "We examined the statements of 1.822 persons who were

16 transported in 18 buses, three trucks, and two passenger vehicles from

17 Kozluk."

18 So most of the people were boarded onto buses; isn't that right?

19 Seventeen buses, three trucks, and two passenger vehicles. That is what

20 is said in this document. Is that incorrect?

21 A. First of all, those buses and trucks arrived immediately we told

22 we had to leave, which means that they had been prepared and organised.

23 Secondly, there is room in one bus for 50 people. And you see how many

24 there were. The buses and trucks were packed full. People were choking

25 inside.

1 JUDGE MAY: We are going to adjourn now. It's half past.

2 Mr. Milosevic, we have in mind that this was a 92 bis witness, a

3 Rule 92 bis witness, and therefore, you should have rather longer, but the

4 time you can have is an hour and a half, which means you've got, if you

5 want it, another three-quarters of an hour with this witness.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Three-quarters of an hour, Mr. May,

7 is not long enough, I think, because by putting this witness on the 92

8 bis, you have limited my cross-examination quite considerably.

9 JUDGE MAY: No. And it would certainly be long enough if you

10 didn't spend so long arguing with the witness. You've got three-quarters

11 of an hour.

12 We will adjourn now. Twenty minutes.

13 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

14 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Banjanovic, in your statement it says that Kozluk had about

18 12.000 inhabitants. Is that correct?

19 A. No. About 5.000 inhabitants. But with Sepak, Skocic, the

20 surrounding places, it has about 12.000.

21 Q. So that information refers to the entire local commune, not just

22 the village?

23 A. Kozluk is a local commune with about 5.000 inhabitants.

24 Q. So tell me, given that in this list of yours you had 1.822 people

25 who went to Western Europe, that's what it says here, what happened to the

1 other 3.200 inhabitants?

2 A. All the other citizens went to Western countries.

3 Q. So others went too.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How many Serbs lived in Kozluk?

6 A. There were between 15 and 20 families there.

7 Q. How many lived -- how many Serbs live there now?

8 A. There were about 5.000 Serbs when we left Kozluk, and at the

9 moment there are about 1.000 Serbs there.

10 Q. On the second page of your statement you say that after the fall

11 of Zvornik, Kozluk remained surrounded by the Serbian forces. Isn't that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. Do you know how long these battles, this fighting in Zvornik

15 lasted for?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Do you know how many victims there were in that fighting?

18 A. No.

19 Q. So how is it that, as you claim, Zvornik fell but Kozluk didn't?

20 What was the difference?

21 A. Well, Kozluk, the inhabitants of both nationalities remained

22 loyal. There was no fighting in the centre itself. We lived in peace

23 with our neighbours.

24 Q. So there were no attacks directed against Kozluk?

25 A. Not until the 20th, no.

1 Q. And before the fighting in Zvornik, did you decide to form some

2 sort of a Crisis Staff in your place; isn't that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Were there any Serbs in that Crisis Staff?

5 A. The Serbs formed their own police forces and their Crisis Staff.

6 So a number of citizens, inhabitants formed a Crisis Staff, and we would

7 always meet together.

8 Q. But you provided a list here. There were nine of you in the

9 Crisis Staff, and that was before any kind of fighting broke out. So why,

10 when you say that you lived on good terms with the Serbs in that place,

11 why didn't you have a joint Crisis Staff, that you made a Crisis Staff --

12 you formed a Crisis Staff for Muslims alone?

13 A. Because the Serbs separated themselves. They separated the

14 police. In time, they formed their own units, their own staff, et cetera.

15 They didn't want to be together with the Bosniaks.

16 Q. So the Serbs didn't want this but you did?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. But was there a defence plan, a plan to defend the place, that you

19 discussed at the Crisis Staff?

20 A. No.

21 Q. What were your personal duties in the Crisis Staff?

22 A. Well, our task was to establish contact with neighbouring places

23 in which people of Serbian nationality lived, with Tabanci, Malesici,

24 Rici, Skocic, and other places, in order to attempt -- in order to avoid a

25 war, because we had always lived on good terms until then.

1 Q. Well, this is why I'm asking you why you needed this war, since

2 the terms you were on with others were good. Tell me, was there any

3 contact with Muslim paramilitary formations, you as a crisis staff?

4 A. No.

5 Q. In your statement you say you engaged two Muslims and sent them on

6 some sort of spy mission among the Serb forces to see what was going on

7 there; isn't that correct?

8 A. Well, this is what you claim.

9 Q. In the sixth paragraph -- I've only received your statement in

10 English although I believe that you didn't give your statement into

11 English --

12 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness have a copy of the statement.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Well, it says here: [In English] "I asked two Muslims, one of

15 them was a forester, to inquire what was going on all surrounding areas

16 for our security. They saw military training performed by those people in

17 the vicinity of Kozluk. They told what they had seen --"

18 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness find it. Have you found that,

19 Mr. Banjanovic?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not necessary.

21 JUDGE MAY: Just make sure you have it in front of you.

22 Yes, go on reading. It's page 2, sixth paragraph.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. So these aren't my words, they're your words. So please tell me,

1 what were the names of these two Muslims?

2 A. One of them was called Nijaz Marhosevic, and the other person, and

3 the other person was called Redjo.

4 Q. What was their duty? Were they obliged to follow your orders?

5 A. Well, that was not an order of any kind.

6 Q. Was this mission a dangerous one for them?

7 A. Well, you know what a forester does in forests. It's his job to

8 be in forests. You know what the duty of a guard consist of. He had to

9 be present in the forest. We didn't send the fire brigade there, we sent

10 people whose work this was.

11 Q. Very well. You sent them to see what was happening. As you say

12 in your statement, you approached the Serbian soldiers and you openly

13 asked them what they were doing there, and they answered to you in a

14 friendly way that Grujic had called them there; isn't that correct?

15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 Q. So tell me, how is it that your place was surrounded since you

17 were free to move around, to move through enemy ranks and talk about the

18 reasons for their presence there, et cetera? How can you talk about there

19 being an encirclement?

20 A. First of all, Serbian forces had encircled Kozluk from all sides.

21 And also encircled by the Territorial Defence, paramilitary units, and the

22 police.

23 Q. Didn't you say there were Serbian villages around you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Sir, even 20 years ago it was encircled by Serbs; isn't that

1 correct?

2 A. Yes. But there were no trenches at the time and there were no

3 armed soldiers at the time, and at the time, one year back, there weren't

4 various exercises, training manoeuvres, firing, and so on.

5 Q. What did those two men of yours see, the two men that you sent on

6 a mission?

7 A. They didn't go to reconnoiter. They carried out their usual

8 duties as foresters. They saw a certain number of unknown people who had

9 bands on which it said Military Scouts. They saw that these people were

10 armed, and they also saw that these people were training.

11 Q. So they observed them carrying out military exercises without

12 hindrance.

13 A. Well, it was from a great distance, through binoculars.

14 Q. So they were covered -- they were under cover?

15 A. Yes, obviously.

16 Q. As I see, they informed someone called Redjo; is that correct?

17 A. Redjo is a policeman. He is from the local police in Zvornik, and

18 he was a worker in -- he works as a policeman in Kozluk.

19 Q. That's why they informed him, because he was a policeman?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And then as I can -- as I see in your statement, he -- that is to

22 say, Redjo went straight to Zvornik. He went to the police station.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In order to hand over all the proof of these activities; isn't

25 that correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So according to what comes out of what you have just confirmed,

3 Zvornik fell, the Serbs laid siege to Kozluk, and Redjo went to Zvornik

4 that had allegedly been taken and told the Serbs that the Serbs were

5 training.

6 A. No. You are distorting what I said. You're distorting the facts.

7 This happened before the fall of Zvornik.

8 Q. So even earlier on?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Very well then. In the eighth paragraph on the same page, you say

11 that the Serbs from Ugljari, Malesici, and Tabanci built a big road

12 although there was a good road that passed through Kozluk; isn't that

13 correct?

14 A. Yes, it is.

15 Q. So tell me, why didn't you mention this?

16 A. Well, because at the time, heavy military machines appeared in

17 Serbian villages alone.

18 Q. So they were building a road and this is something that was

19 suspicious; isn't that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And why would it be suspicious to build roads?

22 A. Because there were two roads already in existence. That's a

23 little too much. It was a matter of connecting the Serbian villages in

24 the Serbian territory in order to bypass Kozluk. You've asked me this on

25 two occasions. Is it necessary to ask me a third time?

1 Q. On page 3 of your statement, you say that the Serbian policemen,

2 almost all the arms and vehicles from the police station in Zvornik was

3 transported to Celopek; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How do you know that that happened?

6 A. Because when I went there to the Crisis Staff on several occasions

7 with a special permit, I saw that there was a large number of police

8 vehicles, and I saw that there were a lot of police present there, et

9 cetera. And Radio Zvornik said that this Ministry of the Interior, this

10 police station, had been divided into a Muslim and Serbian part.

11 Q. And on that basis you concluded that they had transported weapons

12 to Celopek?

13 A. No. When I went to the Crisis Staff and to Zvornik, when I was

14 provided with a special permit, I saw that there were many vehicles there

15 and many policemen.

16 Q. And you came to that conclusion on that basis?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Very well. You say that the Serbian paramilitary formations

19 attacking Safka [phoen] and Kovacevic [phoen], these villages, they passed

20 through your place very often and they were afraid of the inhabitants'

21 reaction, but fortunately, nothing happened; isn't that what you said?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So tell me, how is it that the Serbian forces attacked all the

24 surrounding places and even passed through your place in order to attack

25 others but they kept bypassing Kozluk?

1 A. They passed through Kozluk. In Kozluk there was the Serbian and

2 the Bosniak police, and they had joint patrols. There were two Crisis

3 Staffs in Kozluk and they cooperated. There was contact with the

4 neighbouring places, and there was mutual respect in Kozluk, because we

5 had always lived in peace. There were no incidents in Kozluk. It's true

6 that those paramilitary units and the army came and passed through, but

7 they didn't disturb us.

8 Q. Very well. When you say in the surrounding places, you are

9 referring to the Serbian places, the Serbian villages. Why had barricades

10 been erected there?

11 A. Well, I don't know why, but I know that a long time before that, a

12 year before the conflict broke out, there was training of some kind, there

13 were meetings, there were military scouts who had bands on them. These

14 people were often seen. There was something happening.

15 Q. But you don't know what.

16 A. No.

17 Q. Tell me, is it true that your neighbours, your Serbian neighbours

18 visited you and tried to convince you that nothing bad would happen to the

19 Muslims and that there was no reason to be afraid?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. And what did Brano Grujic tell you about that at a meeting that

22 was held with you at Kozluk?

23 A. With the mayor Grujic, we had several meetings at which Marko

24 Pavlovic and others were present. At those meetings, he promised us that

25 no one would touch us, that we could continue living in peace. He said

1 that we should surrender those weapons and carry on working in the fields

2 and not think about the frontline, et cetera.

3 Q. So the only request that concerned military matters had to do with

4 surrendering weapons?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. On page 4 of your statement, you say that the Muslim inhabitants

7 from the village of Sepak and the village of Skocic who had left their

8 places, you tried to persuade them to return to their village; isn't that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes, it is.

11 Q. So you too thought they weren't in any kind of danger from the

12 Serbs.

13 A. Well, a large number of Kozluk had appeared in Kozluk. There were

14 about 12.000 people in Kozluk, and we no longer had any food. Illness --

15 illnesses were present. There was a lot of people from all the

16 surrounding Bosniak villages in Kozluk, and it was an intolerable

17 situation. So we then agreed that those people would return to their

18 homes and no one would touch them. We said that everything would carry on

19 in a peaceful manner, that there wouldn't be any attacks et cetera.

20 Q. So is it true that the inhabitants from these villages were only

21 requested to hand over heavy weapons which they didn't need, not by any

22 means unless they were preparing some sort of military action? Isn't that

23 correct?

24 A. Well, the most difficult thing was the fact that there was -- the

25 media was constantly requesting that these guns and heavy weapons should

1 be surrendered, but the Bosniaks really didn't possess any such weapons,

2 the Bosniaks from Sepak and Kozluk, the surrounding places. Because we

3 cooperated well with the Serbs and with Serbia, we didn't have any weapons

4 of any kind, and this was really evident.

5 Q. Did any of the inhabitants from Sepak and Skocic, were any of them

6 killed?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Who?

9 A. Some men didn't want to go with us. They went to the free

10 territory. They crossed over to the free territory and that is when they

11 were killed.

12 Q. Are you referring to the territory that was under the control of

13 the Muslim forces?

14 A. The BH army.

15 Q. Very well. And that's where they were killed.

16 A. They were killed on the way there.

17 Q. And after you had tried to convince them, did the inhabitants from

18 Sepak and Skocic return to their places?

19 A. Vasilije Kacavenda was on a peace mission. There was Muhamed

20 Lugavic, there was Marko Pavlovic, Brano Grujic, and myself. After a

21 number of meetings, about 5.000 to 6.000 people returned to their houses

22 in Sepak, Skocic and other places.

23 Q. Is it true to say that you contacted the JNA to help you if your

24 place was attacked, if your village was attacked?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. So you had faith in the Yugoslav People's Army?

2 A. Right up to the time that I saw those military vehicles returning

3 and when I realised that was no longer the Yugoslav People's Army.

4 Q. But you know that the withdrawal of the JNA from Bosnia was in

5 order to satisfy the request of Alija Izetbegovic and his men?

6 A. All I know is that I saw large columns of tanks. There were

7 military columns. I saw the JNA flag, but those people in those vehicles

8 and those lorries, they weren't soldiers. They were terrible people.

9 They were dirty. They were wearing various kinds of uniforms. They

10 opened fire at my place. They gathered in the centre of the town.

11 Q. Well, let's not waste time on this, on the subject of firing in

12 your place which didn't result in any casualties, there is no point in

13 discussing this. But please tell us, you tell -- you're saying that in

14 your office - and this is something you mentioned a minute ago, this is in

15 Kozluk, it's on page 5 - you were met by Brano Grujic, Dragan Spasojevic,

16 and Dr. Muhamed and Jokic, who was a Muslim; isn't that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And then these three together, together with the hodza, Muhamed

19 Efendija Lugavic and the Serbian priest Vasilije Kacavenda went to see the

20 locals of Sepak and Skocic and appealed to them not to resort to force and

21 not to attack the Serb barricades. Is that what you stated?

22 A. No.

23 Q. What did you say then, please?

24 A. Well, it's written in my statement.

25 Q. Very well. How do you interpret this event when a

1 Serbian-cum-Muslim delegation comprising men of religion were endeavouring

2 to calm down the situation? Was that their main purpose?

3 A. This delegation's aim was to encourage the Bosniak population to

4 return to their homes in the surrounding villages.

5 Q. But is -- does this act indicate any intention on the part of the

6 Serbs to attack these places or, on the contrary, to calm the situation

7 down?

8 A. This delegation said that it could not take any responsibility,

9 that there were higher placed people in Zvornik, higher-level commanders

10 who could guarantee security.

11 Q. Very well. Now, if on that occasion Grujic and Spasojevic

12 addressed the people and said that no one would be hurt or arrested, that

13 there was no cause for fear, that everyone should return to their homes;

14 is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So was their intention to intimidate and expel the Muslims from

17 this area? Wouldn't they have said quite the opposite if that had been

18 their aim?

19 A. This happened long before the deportation. Their aim was to break

20 up this group of people because it was dangerous to have 12.000 Muslims in

21 one place.

22 Q. But then you asked Grujic to see his superior.

23 A. He as the mayor said that he could not assume any responsibility

24 and that there was someone higher up.

25 Q. And then you went to Karakaj, which is a part of Zvornik; isn't

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13 English transcripts. Pages 20681 to 20691.

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1 it?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So Grujic too wanted you to make sure you were safe?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And in Celopek you meant someone called Pejic?

6 A. In Karakaj.

7 Q. I see, in Karakaj. I'm sorry. In Karakaj. And what did he tell

8 you?

9 A. Well, I saw that he really was the boss. A part of the delegation

10 didn't even dare enter the office, whereas the others stood at attention

11 in front of him. He received only the hodza Lugavic, the priest

12 Kacavenda, and myself.

13 Q. And what did he say to you?

14 A. He said to Brano Grujic that we must be protected and that he

15 should rule if he can. If not, he would be replaced. I asked that he

16 personally should come and visit Kozluk.

17 Q. So he insisted that you must be protected. And he said to Grujic

18 that he must perform his duty and take care of the citizens; is that

19 right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So he didn't intimidate you, but on the contrary, indicated that

22 he wanted to protect you; isn't that right?

23 A. He asked us to surrender heavy weapons if we had any.

24 Q. Very well. That's only logical.

25 A. I said that he could go to Kozluk and see for himself that we had

1 nothing.

2 Q. Is it true that he gave you assurances that you should stay in

3 your homes, that there was nothing to fear, and that all he requested was

4 the surrender of heavy weapons?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And then you invited him to Kozluk. He accepted the invitation.

7 And then you set off to Kozluk immediately together; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Is it true that he addressed the people in Kozluk?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Offering the same guarantees he had given you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Is it true that he promised to provide food, medicines as soon as

14 possible?

15 A. He was appalled by the difficult situation he witnessed, and he

16 saw a large number of children and sick people, and he sent some medicines

17 and doctors and a truck full of food. What he promised to 10 to 12.000

18 people, he kept. He kept his promise.

19 Q. Did Pejic say to you that if you wanted to leave nevertheless,

20 that it was very dangerous for you to head towards Tuzla?

21 A. No. He told us that we could never pass along that route to

22 Tuzla. He said, "If you go to Tuzla, you will join the army and you will

23 wage war against us." That is what he said. And I saw a very, very large

24 number of barricades and lots of men under arms.

25 Q. Was there a frontline there somewhere?

1 A. The frontline was removed from Kozluk.

2 Q. Yes, a distance away, but in the direction of Tuzla, and that is

3 why you couldn't go towards Tuzla, because it was unsafe for you.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And then he told you that you could go in the direction of Serbia;

6 is that right?

7 A. For a while, we were totally surrounded and in total isolation,

8 and the only exit led towards Serbia. And also, we had to have special

9 passes.

10 Q. But you all left to Serbia without any special passes, only having

11 signed this list of people who wanted to go to Western Europe.

12 A. I'm talking about the people who left before. About 3.000 people

13 had left before that.

14 Q. Did anything happen to those people?

15 A. The people who remained in Kozluk, who didn't want to leave with

16 us, were killed.

17 Q. Were killed?

18 A. Yes. More than 20 men were killed.

19 Q. When were these people killed?

20 A. After the 26th.

21 Q. When you had left already.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Who killed them?

24 A. Those same guards, those same men that had surrounded Kozluk.

25 Q. As far as I can see from your statement, Pejic released several

1 people from Kozluk, trusting your statement that they were not members of

2 the Green Berets.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. As far as I see from your statement, you don't know the names of

5 those prisoners.

6 A. Yes, I do. There was a neighbour called Idriz. His sister got

7 married to somebody from Skocic and left there and then he was arrested.

8 Q. So you knew all of them that you guaranteed about?

9 A. Yes. The Serb policeman told me about them, and I went and made

10 the request, and they were released.

11 Q. So they were released because you guaranteed that they were not

12 members of the Green Berets.

13 A. That they were ordinary citizens.

14 Q. And did you distinguish members of the Green Berets from others?

15 A. There were no Green Berets in my areas. I don't even know who

16 those Green Berets were.

17 Q. Very well. And you say that from the 20th to the 25th of June,

18 shooting could be heard in the environs of Kozluk.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Was there any fighting going on there, combat operations?

21 A. In Kozluk, it was quite peaceful, and people still believed in

22 co-existence. Immediately prior to the deportation, Marko Pavlovic and

23 other paramilitary units started their reign of terror in the surrounding

24 villages. They mistreated Serbs. They made them strip. They beat them.

25 Q. Serbs?

1 A. Yes. The reason was that they were too close to us Bosniaks. A

2 large number of people were beaten up. A large number of people were

3 mistreated by these paramilitary units.

4 Q. So paramilitary units are -- were mistreating Serbs because they

5 were on friendly terms with the Muslims?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, tell me, please, as I have a piece of information here, I

8 want to check whether it is correct. It has to do with this fact that at

9 one point, that is on the 26th of June, they told you that they could no

10 longer guarantee your security; is that right?

11 A. After the order issued to me by Brano Grujic that we should

12 immediately leave Kozluk, a member of parliament called Mijatovic came up

13 to me and said that there was no safety any more and that it would be best

14 for us to leave because there could be a massacre.

15 Q. But what was the reason for this?

16 A. I don't know what the reason was, but I did see that in Zvornik

17 and around it no one had control any more.

18 Q. So the chaos of a civil war.

19 A. No, no. There was a conflict among the Serbs themselves, among

20 various paramilitary units, units of the army and so on. Nobody knew who

21 was in command any more.

22 Q. So that's exactly what I'm saying. A chaotic situation typical of

23 a civil war. Do you know a village called Rastosnica? How far it from

24 Kozluk?

25 A. Quite far.

1 Q. Quite far, I see. Has this anything to do with the fact that it

2 was right then that the Muslim forces had destroyed that village and

3 expelled more than 4.000 people from the area, Serbs?

4 A. We were totally isolated and we didn't know what was happening a

5 kilometre away from us not to mention 50 or 100 kilometres away. We just

6 saw these various armies passing through Kozluk. Something was going on.

7 Q. So several thousand people from this destroyed village fled to

8 your area, according to my information.

9 A. While I was there, no one arrived.

10 Q. Very well. Is it true that in Kozluk nothing was destroyed?

11 A. How could it be destroyed when there was no war there? Maybe 50

12 up to 100 houses were destroyed that were already old, and a number of

13 houses were damaged or torched during the deportation. But the number is

14 very small.

15 Q. So as opposed to Rastosnica which was totally destroyed and 4.000

16 people expelled from it --

17 JUDGE MAY: The witness knows nothing about that. There's no

18 point repeating it.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. But the witness does

20 know that Kozluk was not destroyed, that there was no war there.

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We've had the evidence about that. He's given

22 it at some length.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. When the Red Cross received you in Serbia - we discussed this at

1 the very beginning - in view of the circumstances that we have just

2 addressed, you yourself say there was chaos, conflict, even conflicts

3 between various Serb formations, between Serb formations and Muslim

4 formations. It doesn't matter which. You don't know of any Green Berets

5 or the Patriotic League or anything like that. You say the army of Bosnia

6 and Herzegovina. Anyway, you were evacuated. You arrived in Serbia. Did

7 the Serbs save your life perhaps in doing this? Because you are talking

8 of the circumstances under which you left. They told you they could no

9 longer guarantee your safety, and you yourself described the situation as

10 chaotic. By helping you to evacuate, did they save your life?

11 A. First of all, they lied to us. We were tricked. We didn't go to

12 war. We surrendered our weapons. Why were we expelled from our jobs?

13 Why didn't they let us till our land?

14 Q. That's another question. You yourself described a moment ago the

15 chaotic situation, the shooting and everything else, and that you were

16 told that they could no longer guarantee your safety. So my question is:

17 By helping you evacuate, did they save your lives?

18 A. They wrote this letter saying that we were doing everything

19 voluntarily, but in fact, they expelled us. We left in trucks, in buses.

20 The stoning, the beating, the killings was not an act of benevolence but

21 an act of expulsion. Why would 5.000 people leave their homes? That is

22 ethnic cleansing. That was the scenario.

23 Q. Out of fear of war. Why do refugees all over the world leave

24 their homes?

25 A. We were not at war.

1 JUDGE MAY: We've exhausted this topic. Move on to something

2 else.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Did everyone have to leave Kozluk or only the people who wanted

5 to?

6 A. I don't understand the question.

7 Q. We are talking about the departure and whether it was under force.

8 Did everyone have to leave Kozluk or only the people who wanted to leave

9 and who wanted to go to the West?

10 A. It was not a voluntary matter. It was an order that we should

11 leave immediately. It was ethnic cleansing.

12 Q. Let us leave the qualification of this to someone else. Tell me,

13 how many people stayed behind in Kozluk? If 1.822 of you signed that

14 paper, how many stayed behind?

15 A. The Serb families and some Bosniaks who didn't want to go with us.

16 And all those Bosniaks were killed.

17 Q. I see. So those 20 Bosniaks only stayed behind. You said that 20

18 were killed and now you say all of them were killed.

19 A. I gave you a precise answer. The Bosniaks who didn't want to go

20 with us were killed. There were some 20 of them.

21 JUDGE MAY: So let's make sure we have this right. There were a

22 number of Serbs, and you say 20 Bosniaks who stayed behind; is that right?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE MAY: Can you tell us how many Serbs there were? Can you

25 give us some idea of that?

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He said 15 households. There were

2 15 Serbian households.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were between 15 and 20 Serbian

4 families. Those Serbs remained in Kozluk. Nobody disturbed them. They

5 were Serbs.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. I gathered that nobody disturbed you either. They suggested that

8 you leave because they could no longer guarantee your safety because of

9 what was going on in your environs.

10 A. You don't want to hear me.

11 Q. I do want to hear you.

12 A. The army, para-army and the police were herding people into the

13 centre. They were opening fire. Medo Marhocevic was killed. Hadzic was

14 wounded. Several houses were torched. Quite a lot of people were

15 slapped.

16 Q. This Medo was not killed on that day.

17 A. On the 23rd, 24th he was killed but certainly not during that

18 particular event.

19 Q. Therefore, you said a moment ago that on that day, no one was

20 killed except for that one person being wounded. Very well. Now, tell

21 me, how did the Serbs carry out ethnic cleansing by expelling Bosniaks to

22 Serbia?

23 JUDGE MAY: Well, that's a matter entirely for the Trial Chamber

24 in due course, to characterise it and decide what happened. You've heard

25 -- all he can do is give his evidence. He said they were sent to Serbia.

1 Any qualification, as he rightly said, as you rightly said, is a matter

2 for others, in fact for the Trial Chamber. Let's move on.

3 You've got about, I should think, about five minutes left.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I'll try, Mr. May.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. I put this question to him because, Mr. Banjanovic, I thought you

7 were the head of the Association for the Return of Citizens of Bosniak

8 Nationality of the Municipality of Zvornik; isn't that correct?

9 A. No. I'm the president of the association for the return of all

10 people to their territory, and that includes Bosniaks, Croats, and Serbs.

11 Q. Very well. Is it true to say that the government of the

12 Federation of BH exerted pressure on the Muslims from Podrinje in order to

13 get them to leave Podrinje and to move to the Sarajevo municipalities?

14 A. I'm not aware of that fact.

15 Q. Did your association on the 23rd of May, 1996 - and I'm speaking

16 about your association - did they issue a communique in which they

17 condemned the government for such demographic policies?

18 A. We were against any form of transporting, transferring people. We

19 wanted people to return to their homes, and we wanted trust among citizens

20 to be re-established.

21 Q. Very well. But since I'm asking you whether they exerted

22 pressure, did the government exert pressure to make Bosniaks from

23 Podrinje, to make Muslims move out? You say that you're not aware of

24 that, but your association condemned the government for the exertion of

25 such pressure. Are you aware of this fact or not?

1 A. We condemned all institutions that encouraged people to leave

2 their homes.

3 Q. But tell me, explain to me, what did the BH federation government

4 want to achieve by exerting such pressure and by encouraging the people to

5 move out?

6 A. I'm not the Prime Minister, I'm just an ordinary citizen of

7 Kozluk, and I want to live in Kozluk and to live on good terms with

8 everyone.

9 Q. Very well. But you are aware of the fact that the government

10 exerted pressure on the Podrinje Muslims so that they would move out from

11 that territory. You're not aware of that fact, nor are you aware of any

12 form of pressure exerted by the Muslims and --

13 JUDGE MAY: He said that. Let's move on to something else.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Since I no longer have -- since I have no more time, I only have

17 one more question for you, and this concerns the beginning of my

18 cross-examination, what you said at the end when you -- concerning your

19 arrival in Serbia, according to what you said.

20 In Loznica, you asked the Red Cross for help. You asked them to

21 help you continue your journey to Western Europe. Did they, as this is

22 what you requested from them, could they have assumed, could they have

23 known that you were deported or did they consider you to be refugees?

24 A. Mr. Milosevic, we were forced out of Kozluk. We were expelled

25 from Kozluk. Twenty Bosniaks were killed.

1 JUDGE MAY: Just answer this, Mr. Banjanovic: Can you say from

2 your knowledge whether the Red Cross knew what your position was, that you

3 were deported or not?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they did know. As soon as

5 they saw us in the lorries, they knew that we were being deported. And we

6 also told them what we had been through. We told them about what had

7 happened. People were aware of the fact that this was a matter of

8 deportation, forced expulsion.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Are you now claiming that you informed the Red Cross in Loznica of

11 the fact that you weren't refugees but that you were being forcibly

12 deported by the authorities from the municipality of Zvornik?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How is it that this does not appear on any of the documents that

15 have been provided?

16 A. Well, you have to ask those who compiled these documents. We

17 didn't.

18 Q. You said that you only contacted the Red Cross apart from the

19 police that protected you. So you informed the Red Cross that you weren't

20 leaving of your own free will and that the list that you had signed was a

21 list that had been compiled under duress and that nothing -- none of this

22 was correct. So why did you ask them to help you leave for Western Europe

23 as soon as possible?

24 A. This is what you are claiming.

25 Q. But -- I'm sorry. But you said, and it's in the transcript, we

1 asked them to help us continue our journey to Western Europe or, rather,

2 you did not want to stay on in Loznica, you wanted to carry on. That's

3 what you stated today.

4 A. We received an order from Mr. Marko Pavlovic in Kozluk according

5 to which we were leaving on a voluntary basis and that we were trying to

6 avoid the mobilisation. But this is something he wrote down. We didn't.

7 It's a lie.

8 Q. Mr. Banjanovic, I'm asking you to explain to me your testimony

9 that you gave here this morning according to which you asked the Red Cross

10 in Loznica to enable you to carry on your trip to Western Europe as soon

11 as possible. Isn't that correct?

12 A. Yes it is.

13 Q. If you made such a request, if you asked them to help you go to

14 Western Europe as soon as possible, how can you at the same time claim

15 that you told them that you had been taken there by force and that in fact

16 you didn't want to carry on?

17 A. This is what you are saying. I said that we had been taken there,

18 I said that we were hostages and that we wanted to go as far away from

19 Serbia as possible, and I asked them to help us, and they said that they

20 would send a document to Belgrade. I don't know what they wrote in that

21 document, but they wrote it, we didn't.

22 Q. They didn't write anything. They sent your list, because in that

23 document from Belgrade, it states, and I'll remind you of this, it states

24 quite clearly here: "We have examined the written statements, the 1.822

25 people in 17 buses, three trucks with trailers, and two passenger vehicles

1 from Kozluk, Zvornik municipality, and they now have permission. The

2 written statements of the above-mentioned persons, given on their own

3 behalf, on behalf of their under aged family members or children, et

4 cetera, expressed their will as to where they want to live, which is one

5 of the fundamental human rights.

6 So they examined your list, the list that you had written and

7 signed. They forwarded it to Belgrade and they requested that they should

8 enable you to carry on. They replied that they had examined the list,

9 decided that it was a matter of human rights that had to be respected, and

10 they provided you with authorisation, with permission to carry on.

11 A. What you have failed to read is that the commander of the

12 Territorial Defence in Zvornik, Marko Pavlovic, wrote down that we were

13 leaving on a voluntary basis, that we were trying to avoid mobilisation

14 and that we were putting our property down on a voluntary basis, that we

15 were doing everything on a voluntary basis, that we hadn't been beaten,

16 that none of our property has been torched, that we weren't being

17 transported, et cetera.

18 JUDGE MAY: Now, we have been over this several times, and we're

19 not going to go over it again. We have the documents. We've heard the

20 evidence. Now, Mr. Milosevic, your time is now up.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. In that document, and you claim that the facts mentioned in it are

23 false, you had that in your hands and it contains your handwriting.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So why didn't you draw the attention of any of the Serbian

1 authorities to the fact that it wasn't true?

2 A. I informed the Red Cross in Loznica, and I informed Mr. Nikolic of

3 this fact.

4 Q. Very well.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Tapuskovic.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Banjanovic, I think there is a matter that

9 hasn't been fully clarified. As far as I have understood you, perhaps you

10 could repeat this, you said that in your local commune there were 12.000

11 people in total.

12 A. No.

13 Q. What did you say then?

14 A. There were about 5.000 people in Kozluk. And in Skocic, Sepak,

15 the surrounding places, together with Kozluk there were about 12.000

16 Bosniaks.

17 Q. Very well. Let's concentrate on Kozluk which had 5.000

18 inhabitants. Given what you have just explained to the Trial Chamber now,

19 if only 1.822 people left Kozluk and followed the route that you

20 indicated, does that mean that a little over 3.000 people remained in

21 Kozluk?

22 A. No. There were about 5.000 inhabitants in Kozluk, and from the

23 beginning of the conflict until the time of the deportation on the 26th,

24 about 3.000 people left and went to foreign countries.

25 Q. Which routes did they follow to go to these foreign countries?

1 A. Some crossed over into Serbia. For a certain period of time it

2 was possible to go to Tuzla until that total blockade, when we were

3 subjected to a total blockade. Then it was only possible to go to Serbia.

4 Q. So those people who had previously passed through Serbia, did they

5 leave on a voluntary basis or in some other manner?

6 A. They received permits and they left on a voluntary basis.

7 Q. And these people who followed other routes, through Tuzla, et

8 cetera, did they also leave on a voluntary basis?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Only these 1.822 people didn't leave on a voluntary basis?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. Thank you. As far as I have understood you, in addition to this

13 joint declaration, there were individual declarations given by each one of

14 you according to which you wanted to leave and go to a foreign country.

15 A. No.

16 Q. So there was just this joint statement?

17 A. There was a list that we signed, and there was an order from the

18 Territorial Defence which had been brought in an envelope. We didn't sign

19 any kind of a statement.

20 Q. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber whether all of these 1.822

21 people left Serbia and carried on?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So that means that the 1.822 people, all of them had valid

24 passports?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. They had all been provided with valid passports.

2 A. Perhaps about a hundred people had passports.

3 Q. And the others got it in Subotica?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you know how long it takes for such a procedure in order to

6 issue passports and do you know that each passport has to be paid for,

7 certain fees have to be paid?

8 A. These were joint passports, and it had been paid by the

9 Suboticanka factory. They paid very well for this. They brought six

10 photographs -- photographers.

11 Q. Can you now explain to the Trial Chamber the following: The

12 Serbian Red Cross escorted you through the territory in Serbia.

13 A. We were escorted by the police.

14 Q. And Red Cross representatives?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And who met you when you crossed the Yugoslav border? Was a sort

17 of reception organised for you?

18 A. I don't know. I was the last one to get off. There were trains

19 that took us there, to the stations, and we were sent further on then.

20 Q. Were those representatives of -- were