1 Tuesday, 1 April 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kay.

7 MR. KAY: Yes. The Court will see this morning there is a third

8 amicus in court. That is Professor McCormack from Australia, who was

9 appointed by the order of the Trial Chamber to assist on matters of

10 international law, and he is present this week for the hearings and to

11 deal with any issues the Trial Chamber may ask of him. Perhaps he can

12 introduce himself to the Trial Chamber now.

13 JUDGE MAY: Mr. McCormack, let me say we've got an application

14 which you've made for an extension of time for the preparation of

15 submissions. You asked for an extension of the same period of time as we

16 initially allowed, your not having had the papers or anything to work on

17 it. We'll certainly grant that until the 14th of July.

18 MR. McCORMACK: Thank you very much, Your Honour. I'm sorry that

19 I have to ask for that extension of time for such a long time, but as all

20 three of you know, the process of me actually being able to commence my

21 work has taken a little bit longer than I hoped it would but I'm very

22 pleased to be here today. Thanks for the welcome, and looking forward to

23 working with you on the aspects of the trial that you've designated me to

24 deal with.

25 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

1 MR. McCORMACK: Thank you very much.

2 JUDGE MAY: We'll deal next with the witness.

3 Mr. Gusalic, I understand occasionally you may need a break when

4 giving evidence. If you do, if you want a break, just tell us and you can

5 have one.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

8 WITNESS: ALIJA GUSALIC [Resumed]

9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Examined by Mr. Nice: [Continued]

11 Q. Mr. Gusalic, before we return to where we were at the end of

12 yesterday, you told us about Mauzer's men and about Mauzer. Do you

13 remember now of which brigade Mauzer had originally been a member?

14 A. I think the Panthers.

15 Q. And he himself, do you know what he had done by way of military

16 service before having this group which you now connect in some way to the

17 name Panthers?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Page 5 of the summary, paragraph 18. Mr. Gusalic, you told us of

20 your first experiences in the hospital and of the visit by Blagojevic with

21 two of his men. Were you and others in the hospital visited later by

22 other well-known individuals? If so, tell us by whom.

23 A. Yes. I was visited by Mrs. Plavsic, Fikret Abdic, Arkan also

24 came, and Mirko Blagojevic.

25 Q. Those first three or four people, did they come just to see you or

1 did they come to see many people in the hospital; and if so, with what

2 message?

3 A. Not just me. They toured the whole hospital.

4 Q. What was said, for example, by Arkan?

5 A. Arkan didn't say anything in particular, but Mrs. Plavsic said

6 that this had all been done by the paramilitary, that the Yugoslav

7 People's Army would deal with it and calm things down. And later on, it

8 did calm things down.

9 Q. Were orders given as to whether you should be treated or not?

10 A. I don't know. I stayed there for only nine days and I was

11 released.

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, just one moment. We're not getting our

13 transcripts running. All we've got is the first part of the morning's

14 work.

15 Yes, apparently it will be sorted out. Provided we're keeping a

16 transcript, all well and good. Yes, go on.

17 MR. NICE:

18 Q. Were you in fact treated by hospital staff, Mr. Gusalic?

19 A. Yes, I was for the first three days, but later, they would hit me,

20 and after the visit --

21 JUDGE MAY: Apparently there is a problem with the transcript and

22 we'll need to break for five minutes. We'll adjourn for five minutes for

23 that to be done.

24 --- Break taken at 9.16 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 9.19 a.m.

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

2 MR. NICE:

3 Q. Mr. Gusalic, when you were released from hospital, did you go

4 home?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you see Arkan at the time of your release from hospital or at

7 about that time? If so, did he say anything to you?

8 A. At the hospital when Mrs. Plavsic and Fikret Abdic came, but after

9 that, I didn't see him again.

10 Q. Who told you to go home? Do you remember?

11 A. Arkan personally released me, and he said that I should go home

12 and that no one would hurt me.

13 Q. Did he say anything further about whether you should go home and

14 stay at home or whether you were free to roam around, or what?

15 A. That I should go home and stay there, not leave home.

16 MR. NICE: Your Honour, there is a small bundle of exhibits for

17 this witness, three altogether, and indeed as I've already indicated I'm

18 not going to produce the second, but may they, for convenience, be given

19 an exhibit number with two tab references in the event.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Prosecutor's Exhibit 414.

21 MR. NICE: And of Exhibit 414, tab 1 is a photograph now on your

22 -- it's not now on the witness's screen. May it be displayed for the

23 witness.

24 Q. Do you recognise one or both of the men in that photograph?

25 A. I recognise only one. That is Arkan, the one on the right.

1 Q. Following your release from prison -- and, Your Honour, I'm going

2 to try and deal with pages 5 and 6 fairly briefly, I think.

3 Following your release from prison -- from hospital, did you

4 receive letters of a threatening kind?

5 A. Yes, I did receive letters. Who sent them, I don't know for sure,

6 but they were threatening letters.

7 Q. Were you visited by men from identified groups?

8 A. There were soldiers coming all the time to my house, as if it was

9 a garrison.

10 Q. What did they do to you, if anything?

11 A. They didn't do anything. They just cursed my balija mother,

12 that's all.

13 Q. Were you arrested on two occasions in this period of time

14 following your release from hospital?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you or had you started the process of hiding at the time of

17 your first arrest, hiding from the men who were visiting you?

18 A. When I got that last letter, I got scared, and then I started to

19 escape, and they were looking for me.

20 Q. I think they found you and they took you to the SUP building in

21 Bijeljina; correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Indeed, when they found you, they forced you to surrender by

24 saying something over a loudspeaker about what would happen to your wife,

25 didn't they?

1 A. Yes, and to my whole family.

2 Q. What did they say would happen to your family if you didn't give

3 yourself up?

4 A. That they would all be killed if I didn't surrender. So I decided

5 it was better for me alone than my whole family to suffer.

6 Q. At the local SUP building, what treatment did you receive from the

7 police?

8 A. They didn't talk much. They just hit me.

9 Q. Were you handcuffed at some stage?

10 A. Yes. Yes.

11 Q. Was something said to you about the treatment you were receiving

12 and the way it's different from the way you would have been treated had

13 you been detained by Blagojevic's men?

14 A. Yes. It was certainly better that I was captured by the police

15 than by Mirko's men, because if they had caught me on the very first

16 occasion, they would have killed me.

17 Q. This was something said to you or something you calculated

18 yourself?

19 A. I calculated that myself. No one told me.

20 Q. Did there come a time when you needed to go to the toilet and you

21 asked to have the handcuffs taken off?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Once you were released from the handcuffs, what were you able to

24 do?

25 A. I had no choice; I hit the policeman and ran.

1 Q. And you escaped?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You then hid for about 20 days in a cemetery and in some woods?

4 A. Something like that. Around 20 days.

5 Q. Later, you felt you had to go back and see your wife who'd

6 recently given birth to a new baby?

7 A. Yes. I had a daughter. She was a month and a half old, and I

8 decided to go and see her.

9 Q. At your house, were you arrested again?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How many men came to arrest you? Did you recognise any of them?

12 A. No one.

13 Q. How many of them were there?

14 A. I think there were three of them.

15 Q. How were they dressed?

16 A. Camouflage uniforms.

17 Q. On their heads?

18 A. Black scarves -- no, socks.

19 Q. Did you recognise -- think again, please. Did you recognise any

20 one of those men?

21 A. I'm unable to recall.

22 Q. Did you subsequently discover whether your wife, your brother, and

23 your child had been treated in any way to force them to reveal your

24 presence at the house?

25 A. Later, before that, my wife, brother, and my baby daughter, while

1 I was escaping, they took them to the barracks. They put them in some

2 sort of a freezer for them to confess where I was hiding, though no one

3 knew.

4 Q. After this second arrest, were you taken to the local SUP

5 building?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How many days were you kept there, roughly?

8 A. Not roughly; for four days.

9 Q. Were you provided with wood or water over those four days?

10 A. No. I was just provided with beatings.

11 Q. Who did the beatings?

12 A. Who didn't. Whoever came in.

13 Q. Who was the police commander at the time? What was his name?

14 MR. NICE: Your Honour, this witness is obviously having some

15 difficulty yesterday and today remembering matters of detail. Giving

16 evidence is always a stressful experience. I propose to ask him if he's

17 recorded these matters in his statement and, subject to objection, I'll

18 put a name to him.

19 Q. Did you record at an earlier time the name of the police commander

20 and, I think, put it in a witness statement? I'll just check that it's in

21 the witness statement rather than in the proofing notes. Did you? Did

22 you put the name of the police commander in your statement?

23 A. Mica, yes.

24 Q. And Mica, had he formed a special unit of men as well as being a

25 general police commander?

1 A. Yes. He was the commander. Yes, he did. He had his special men.

2 Perhaps 30 or 35 men, young men.

3 Q. Were those some of the men who came and beat you?

4 A. All 30 of them came with Mica.

5 Q. Page 7, paragraph 28. On the fourth day of your detention, were

6 three other men brought in from Bijeljina whom you can remember?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you give us names and, so far as relevant, occupation of those

9 men?

10 A. Smajic Ejub, who was a butcher. Ferid Zecevic. He had a coffee

11 shop, a restaurant. And Zlatan was a jeweller.

12 Q. Do you know what, if anything, Ferid Zecevic had done with his

13 money, he being the restaurateur, before being brought to the SUP

14 building?

15 A. For the Bajram holiday, Arkan went to him and took money so that

16 nobody could touch him. So Arkan went.

17 Q. In fact, when these three men were brought to the SUP building,

18 how were they treated?

19 A. Nobody asked anything, they just beat you.

20 Q. And these three men were beaten as were you; correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Were you and these three others thereafter taken to the Batkovic

23 detention camp which is near Bijeljina?

24 A. Yes. Yes.

25 Q. We can see this on page 29, immediately to the north of Bijeljina

1 in square E2 on the right-hand side.

2 Was that camp -- or did that camp consist of two hangars and two

3 tents?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was it fenced with wire some two metres high with barbed wire on

6 top and with two guard towers?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Roughly how many people were detained there?

9 A. Perhaps 2.000, perhaps more. About 2.000 anyway.

10 Q. Ethnic composition of those detained?

11 A. I don't understand.

12 Q. What was the ethnic composition of these detained? Were they

13 Serbs? Were they Muslims? Were they Croats?

14 A. Mostly they were Muslims, but there were some Croats too.

15 Q. Were there any elderly people there?

16 A. Yes, and children.

17 Q. And any women?

18 A. I think there was one woman.

19 Q. What was the age of the youngest children there, approximately?

20 A. Well, there were very small children, young children.

21 Q. Did the ICRC, the International Committee of the Red Cross, visit

22 the camp?

23 A. Yes, it did visit, but the older children and the smaller

24 children, there were ten special purpose soldiers, and they would hide the

25 children so -- when the Red Cross came to register.

1 Q. Were any of the children released after the Red Cross visit?

2 A. The children were not released, but --

3 Q. As far as these detainees were concerned, were they civilians, or

4 combatants, or mostly civilians or mostly combatants, or what?

5 A. There were just two combatants who had been captured, and they

6 were called the Green Berets. All the others were civilians.

7 Q. From which local towns and villages did the detainees mostly come?

8 A. Brcko, Zvornik, Vlasenica, Bijeljina, Brezovo Polje, Koraj.

9 Q. Do you remember any other towns from which they came, any larger

10 towns?

11 A. I just can't remember.

12 Q. No, of course. If other places come back to you, please tell us.

13 The guards at the camp, where did they mostly come from?

14 A. At the beginning when I had just been arrested, there was a

15 warrant officer from Novi Sad. I don't remember his name.

16 Q. Do you remember the name of his deputy at all and where he came

17 from?

18 A. Well, the deputy was Veljo. What -- he was --

19 Q. When you first arrived at the camp, did you see what happened to

20 Ferid Zecevic and Ejub Smajic? Paragraph 33.

21 A. Well, there was beating and beating, and Ferid just couldn't take

22 it, and he succumbed the first night to the beatings.

23 Q. Who did the beating?

24 A. Mostly it was Veljo who did the beating, with a mask, with a sock

25 over his head. And Gligor, Zoran. There was a major of some kind there

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1 too.

2 Q. Veljo, do you know his last name?

3 A. I can't remember it now but I do know it.

4 Q. And is this one of the guards who did the beating?

5 A. Veljo, you mean?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. Veljo was the deputy, the deputy of this warrant officer.

8 Q. Now, did you put his name in your statement? Do you remember?

9 A. I did, or maybe I didn't.

10 MR. NICE: Your Honour, may I mention to the witness the name

11 Stojanovic.

12 Q. Is that the name that you connect with Veljo or Veljko?

13 A. Well, that's what he called -- they called him, but I don't know

14 the surname exactly.

15 Q. Was there another man involved in these beatings in some way who

16 went by the nickname of Piklic?

17 A. Yes. Piklic was a Muslim, and he broke my ribs and my spine and

18 everything else. One hundred and twenty kilos, he was, and he stood on

19 me.

20 Q. Now, Piklic was his nickname. Do you know what his real name was?

21 A. That's what everyone called him, Piklic. I did know his name,

22 but --

23 Q. Very well. Explain, please, how this man, a Muslim, came to be

24 beating you in the way that you've described.

25 A. Well, not one, two of them, actually.

1 Q. Who was the other Muslim who was beating you?

2 A. Spajzer. I think his name was Dzemal Zahirovic.

3 Q. Can you explain how these two Muslims were beating you and

4 injuring you in the way that you've described.

5 A. Well, I don't know why they did. Perhaps to gave their own

6 heads. And they couldn't care less for other people.

7 Q. You've explained how one of the two men attacked succumbed pretty

8 quickly. What happened to the other one? Did he die as well?

9 A. I think on the third day Zlatan, the jeweller, he also succumbed.

10 He couldn't take it any more. So myself and Smajic were left. The two of

11 us were left.

12 Q. And you were still being beaten by, amongst others, these two

13 Muslims?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Were you provided with any food in the camp? If so, describe it.

16 A. We were given food, but I couldn't eat it because they would beat

17 you up first and then give you the food.

18 Q. Were you obliged to do any work, labour?

19 A. The first time, but not afterwards. I was -- I seemed to be a

20 speciality for being beaten up, as if I was to blame for the war and so

21 that people could see that.

22 Q. Were the two men you've described as dying the only ones who to

23 your knowledge died or did others die? If so, how many?

24 A. Well, the number might have been up to 100 people certainly. They

25 succumbed, older ones, others.

1 Q. In addition to the problems with food, were conditions very hot?

2 A. Yes, it was very hot.

3 Q. And as a result of the combination of factors, beating, lack of

4 food, and heat, were you from time to time actually taken as dead while

5 you were still alive?

6 A. Yes. They took me out four times because they thought I was dead,

7 but I seem to have lived on. I would move a leg or an arm and they would

8 take me back again.

9 Q. Did any of Mauzer's men visit the camp?

10 A. Well, there were different soldiers. As soon as they came, they

11 would look for us special ones, and there were ten of us, and beat us.

12 Q. Before we come to the special ten of you to whom I'll turn, when

13 Mauzer's men visited the camp, did they do anything else in relation to

14 the property of any other detainees?

15 A. Yes. They would take us to a place to hide us and take money and

16 gold from people who had it on them. Well, they didn't have anything to

17 take from me, because even my T-shirt was torn. So all this beating was

18 on my bare body.

19 Q. The group of ten special men, did that include initially Ferid

20 Zecevic and Ejub Smajic who died from beatings?

21 A. Yes. It was always a group of ten people. And if one person

22 would succumb to the beatings, then they would make up the number.

23 Q. Can you name any of the ones who made up in this way the group of

24 ten specials? Give us some other names.

25 A. Rebic Cedo from Brcko, Tufekcic Andrija from Brcko, Mustafic

1 Saban. That was a young person of 16. Kuralic Mirsad. Mostacevic Nedim.

2 Alihodzic Fadil.

3 Q. Very well. The ten of you -- or the changing group of the ten of

4 you, were you given special treatment? If so, what?

5 A. Well, the hangar was actually for everyone, but the rest of the

6 people making up the 2.000, nobody dared contact -- make any contact with

7 us. And if somebody did have any contacts with us, then he would be

8 transferred to our group and beaten, so that the people didn't want to

9 risk talking to us.

10 Q. And how regularly were the group of ten beaten; every day or more

11 than once a day, or what?

12 A. Breakfast, lunch, dinner, when we lined up, and midnight, after

13 12.00. And they would beat us unconscious then.

14 Q. Did you lose weight in the course of this treatment, and if so,

15 how much so that you're -- how much did you lose and how much did you

16 ultimately weigh?

17 A. Well, I weighed 109 or 110 kilos before, and during the time I was

18 there, when I was in Batkovici for the first time, I went down to 59

19 kilos, which, for a large man like myself, is a lot of weight loss. I was

20 just skin and bone.

21 Q. You've said a little about the Red Cross visits. Tell us again,

22 what happened to this group of ten specials when the ICRC came?

23 A. Well, I don't know -- well, as soon as they hear that the Red

24 Cross is coming, they take us away from the hangar some 500 kilometres [as

25 interpreted] away, where the livestock was kept, and that's where they hid

1 us. Cardak.

2 Q. Was there one other particular event, or two other particular

3 events that occurred? First of all, was there something about standing on

4 a chair involving a noose that you can tell us about?

5 A. That's very difficult. When the Red Cross came, they hung me.

6 They tried everything else, and then that's what they tried ultimately

7 too.

8 Q. When you say they hung you, are you describing a hanging by a

9 noose and by your neck, and was it with an intention to kill you or simply

10 to restrain you?

11 A. To torment me. They tried everything. They beat me, and then

12 they tried that too to see what that would look like, what effect that

13 would have.

14 Q. And was there sexual activity that was forced on you? If so, in a

15 sentence, tell us about that.

16 A. It's shame on them to force a man to sleep with a man.

17 Q. Was that done once or more than once?

18 A. More than once.

19 Q. And was it done in the hangar or elsewhere?

20 A. At the Cardak, when we were hidden away, when the Red Cross would

21 used to arrive.

22 Q. And so who was looking at this, just the guards and the other

23 members of the ten or who else?

24 A. The guards there. The guards were the ones who worked there.

25 Q. Thank you. Around September 1992, did you move or were you moved

1 from this camp to the camp at Doboj?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I don't think it's necessary to produce a

4 separate exhibit. The Chamber can see it on page 28 of the atlas, pretty

5 well in the middle of the page, in block C2.

6 Q. When you went, did you go with other members of the special group

7 of ten?

8 A. Yes, the same group, ten of us. Us ten of us went.

9 Q. On arrival were you examined?

10 A. Yes, in the garrison in Doboj, that's where. But we were living

11 corpses.

12 Q. What was the reaction of the doctors who examined you?

13 A. Well, they did a good job. I was covered in wounds.

14 Q. Indeed had some --

15 A. With maggots.

16 Q. With maggots. Thank you. And how did they treat you, the

17 doctors?

18 A. Fairly well.

19 Q. Did you have an opportunity of looking at yourself in a mirror?

20 A. Yes, and I got a fright when I saw myself. I didn't look like a

21 human being at all.

22 Q. Following medical examination, were you taken to a camp in some

23 army warehouses?

24 A. Yes, at Usora camp.

25 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the name of the camp may be different from

1 that which is used in the indictment, and for that reason I'll ask the

2 next question, but the Chamber will see the river Usora running out of

3 Doboj south and west of the town.

4 Q. This Usora camp as you describe it, was it close to a particular

5 factory?

6 A. Yes. It was a fruit factory, Bosanka, and we went to work there.

7 Q. Was it similar in composition as to hangars and so on to the

8 Batkovic camp?

9 A. Similar. Well, the hangars were the same, but there were less

10 people there. And they even kept Serbs there, the Serbs who didn't want

11 to go to the front line.

12 Q. How many Muslims were there there?

13 A. There were the ten of us and perhaps a hundred people. Not more

14 than that ever.

15 Q. Were there any Croat detainees?

16 A. Andrija was there.

17 Q. That's one Croat, is it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You were kept at this camp for about how long?

20 A. Eleven and a half months, I think it was. Eleven, eleven and a

21 half.

22 Q. And was that period of detention typical for other detainees as

23 well?

24 A. [No interpretation]

25 Q. Very well. In the course of your time at this camp, were there

1 several commanders?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Coming from what force?

4 A. From the Republika Srpska.

5 Q. Was one of them by name Ziko Novic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And the guards, did they also come from the Republika Srpska?

8 A. I remember that one of them was a Montenegrin, but I can't

9 remember his name just now.

10 Q. And the others?

11 A. Mostly Serbian from the Republika Srpska.

12 Q. Were conditions in this camp better, worse, or about the same as

13 in Batkovic?

14 A. I think they were better. They were better for me. Better

15 because I was beaten less there.

16 Q. Were you still beaten?

17 A. Yes, but they beat us with police batons, and that was just like a

18 game, like a toy compared to the rest.

19 Q. Did they ever hit you on your faces?

20 A. Well, no, not that.

21 Q. Do you recall any prisoners dying at this camp?

22 A. No, but there were wounded people, injured.

23 Q. Can you name any of the guards who did mistreat detainees?

24 A. There was Dzuro Martic. He was commander of the military police.

25 He would come by frequently. And --

1 Q. Was any Serb prisoner, those who were being detained because they

2 were unwilling to fight, was any Serb prisoner involved in beating other

3 detainees?

4 A. Yes. They were in the first hangar, and the Muslims and Croats in

5 the second and third.

6 Q. Can you give us the name of any such prisoner -- name or nickname

7 of any such Serb prisoner who beat other detainees?

8 A. Well, there was someone we called Tropek, with three fingers. Two

9 cut off and three remained.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 A. He would come in often.

12 Q. I turn to paragraph 47, forced labour. Were you, during your

13 period at this camp, taken to dig trenches?

14 A. Yes. All kinds of things.

15 Q. Was this forced or voluntary work?

16 A. Of course it was forced.

17 Q. Did any prisoners die while digging trenches close to the

18 frontline?

19 A. No.

20 Q. I'll ask you to think again. Can you remember any incidents at

21 the frontline, when trench digging was going on, of prisoners being

22 wounded?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. How many prisoners were wounded?

25 A. Three.

1 Q. And after that had happened, were they replaced and did the work

2 continue or was work suspended?

3 A. Work was continued, and they were taken away to be -- for their

4 wounds to be dressed and later on back to the hangars probably.

5 Q. On one occasion when digging trenches, were you taken to a village

6 called Smajne Vode?

7 MR. NICE: It does not show up on the map, Your Honour.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 MR. NICE:

10 Q. We can't find this -- at least, I can't find this on the

11 map that we have. Can you help us at all with how near to or far from

12 Doboj this village was?

13 A. It's right next to Doboj.

14 Q. What did you find there?

15 A. They were preparing digging trenches. This was a village that had

16 signed its loyalty that it wouldn't go to war.

17 Q. What did you find in the village by way of bodies of people?

18 A. Later on, they attacked the village, and in one house after that

19 attack, there were up to 40 civilians, some killed, some slaughtered.

20 Q. Who attacked the village?

21 Who attacked the village? I didn't catch your answer, I'm

22 afraid.

23 A. The Chetniks, the Serbs.

24 Q. And when you say they were slaughtered, did you see how they'd

25 been slaughtered?

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1 A. Yes. I loaded them onto a truck.

2 Q. And how had they been killed?

3 A. Most of them had their throats slit, and there were others who had

4 been killed with shots from firearms.

5 Q. And your working party had to deal with them by loading them onto

6 a truck and taking them where? Or don't you know where they went?

7 A. We loaded them onto the trucks, and they drove them off, I don't

8 know where.

9 Q. Were you also from time to time obliged to cut wood for those who

10 were fighting?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did the Red Cross visit the camp? If so, roughly how many months

13 into your detention?

14 A. I think after five or six months, but I don't know exactly.

15 Q. Did conditions change after the Red Cross visit?

16 A. Yes. Later on, we were given clothing and it was better.

17 Q. Was your wife allowed to visit you in due course?

18 A. Yes, she would come to visit me with our son.

19 Q. How many times did she visit you?

20 A. I don't know. Two or three times. But after that, we would again

21 be beaten.

22 Q. Were you aware of - paragraph 52 - of other prisoners being kept

23 in the police station in the centre of Doboj town?

24 A. Yes, I do know that.

25 Q. Did you know a man called Jelisic, Goran Jelisic, from before the

1 war, a man coming from Bijeljina?

2 A. Yes. Yes.

3 Q. In the course of detention, were you spoken to by other detainees,

4 one named Djelo Kamberi and another named Andrija Tufekcic?

5 A. Yes. They were elite specials, and we were in that group.

6 Q. Did they tell you what Jelisic had done in Brcko?

7 A. Yes. They had spent some time in Brcko, and they knew Jelisic

8 well in those days.

9 Q. What did they tell you of Jelisic's doings in Brcko?

10 A. That there was a manhole where he killed people. And even

11 Andrija's turn had come, but somehow he managed to escape. He had the

12 good luck not to be killed by him.

13 Q. Anything said about the numbers of people that Jelisic had killed

14 in Brcko?

15 A. The figures were high. They also mentioned someone called Monika.

16 Q. What was it said Monika had done?

17 A. That she too had done the same.

18 Q. When you said the figures are high, are we dealing in fives, tens,

19 twenties, or more?

20 A. I think the figures were over a hundred.

21 Q. Were you taken from Doboj after your eleven and a half months back

22 to Batkovic with four other of the special group of ten?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Had the other five already been exchanged at or during their time

25 in Doboj?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were you kept at Batkovic for another three months?

3 A. Yes. I was supposed to be exchanged, but -- the exchange was all

4 for all, but they left me behind and the others left. And so I stayed

5 there for another three months.

6 Q. On this occasion, roughly how many Muslim men were there there?

7 A. Could you repeat the question, please?

8 Q. Yes. On this occasion, your second detention in Batkovic, roughly

9 how many Muslim detainees were there there?

10 A. The number was between 800 and 900, but the following few days,

11 about 600 or 700 had been exchanged, and I was supposed to go with them.

12 Q. On this occasion, were there any beatings or not?

13 A. At that time, no one beat me.

14 Q. To your knowledge and on information, were there included in the

15 detainees people from the Manjaca camp and from the Rogatica camp?

16 A. Yes. I was the only one from the Tuzla region, and there were

17 some from Manjaca, about a hundred to 150 men. And from Rogatica also

18 there were some.

19 Q. Were you interrogated from time to time?

20 A. Yes. They didn't beat me, but they mistreated me psychologically.

21 MR. NICE: May the witness now see on the computer Exhibit 414,

22 tab 3, which is a list of prisoners of war of Muslim ethnicity exchanged

23 on a date in October 1993, the document coming from a report on the

24 commission of exchange of prisoners of war and the report suggesting that

25 the names are the names of detainees from the Batkovic camp.

1 If we can make sure I have the same screen that the witness has.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see the names.

3 MR. NICE: I'm going to ask the witness to read out the limited

4 number of names he recognises - they have already been highlighted - in

5 order that the names can be on the searchable computer LiveNote record.

6 Q. Looking at this list of names, Mr. Gusalic, did you recognise

7 number 6, Anto Vidovic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. We'll go down to number 10, and would you read out the name if

10 it's a name you recognise.

11 A. Okanovic, Ilijaz.

12 Q. Eleven?

13 A. That's me, Alija Gusalic.

14 Q. Forty-four?

15 A. Omerovic Beniz.

16 Q. And 56. If you can find that.

17 A. Dragan Lovric.

18 Q. And these are all names that you recognise as having been in the

19 Batkovic camp?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In the course of your second detention there, of course.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. A couple of other tiny points or small points. At your first

24 detention in Batkovic, were you interviewed on television or for

25 television --

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. -- by a member of the Serb Radical Party called Pusula, together

3 with some foreign journalists including one apparently from Russia?

4 A. Yes, in the village of Trnova.

5 Q. That I think one can see on the map. I found it before. I hadn't

6 marked it. Yes, it's just south and west of Bijeljina; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Just south and west of Bijeljina. During your second detention --

9 I beg your pardon. Go back.

10 In this interview, were you invited to say things that were true

11 or invited to say things that were false?

12 A. They were false, of course.

13 Q. Were you forced to say things that were false or did you decline

14 to cooperate?

15 A. I was promised if I said that the Muslims had started the war,

16 that they would take me to see my wife and children.

17 Q. Did you in fact say things that were false or not?

18 A. How could I say something that wasn't true?

19 MR. NICE: Well, at paragraph 59 of the summary, the spelling of

20 "Trnava" is wrong. It should be T-R-N-O-V-A, not A-V-A, if the map is

21 correct.

22 Q. During your second period of detention in Batkovic, were you

23 interviewed on several occasions by civilians, and did these civilians

24 include television crews from the Republika Srpska?

25 A. Yes, there were several.

1 Q. Did you say things that were false or did you decline to do so?

2 A. I always spoke the truth, and perhaps that is why I suffered so

3 much. The truth must win.

4 Q. So far as property is concerned, your town of Bijeljina, how many

5 mosques had there been there before the war?

6 A. Five, and the sixth one was under construction.

7 Q. Were they damaged at all in the course of the war?

8 A. They were destroyed totally.

9 Q. Is Janja a village in the municipality of Bijeljina?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. We can see it immediately south and just before you reach the

12 river and the border.

13 Were there two mosques there?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What happened to them in the war?

16 A. They were also destroyed.

17 Q. Thank you. Your present condition is that you still suffer from

18 pain in your chest, arms, and back; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You suffer diabetes, apparently connected to the events that

21 you've described and the suffering that you underwent?

22 A. I developed diabetes in 1997.

23 Q. And what was the date of your exchange?

24 A. 8th of November, 1993.

25 Q. Thank you very much. If you wait there, you will be asked some

1 further questions.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Gusalic, you lived in Bijeljina.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. But as far as I can see from your statement, you don't dare return

7 to Bijeljina.

8 A. How can I return to Bijeljina when I lost my health,

9 Mr. Milosevic?

10 Q. But tell me, I assume you would feel better in your own town. Are

11 you afraid of something? Are you afraid of returning to Bijeljina?

12 A. Of course I'm afraid.

13 Q. What are you afraid of?

14 A. I'm afraid of those men who inflicted what they did to me.

15 Q. You're afraid of men who are today living in Bijeljina; is that

16 right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So that is why you don't dare return there?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is perhaps the reason for your fear that a large number of people

21 say about you that you were the man who started the war in Bijeljina?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is that true?

24 A. Yes, I started the war, Milosevic.

25 Q. No. I'm asking you whether that is true.

1 A. How can that be true?

2 Q. Because there are certain facts confirming this. For example,

3 before I move any further, the other day I received from the side opposite

4 - this is not my document - a statement of Esad Brkic.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, this was disclosed to me

6 under Rule 68, Esad Brkic's statement, and the first page is 00212764, and

7 I will quote from page 11 of this statement which is marked, of the

8 opposing side, 00212774. So it is a statement by a Muslim, which is quite

9 a lengthy statement.

10 "Gusalic, the day prior to the beginning of the war in Bijeljina,

11 in a tipsy condition, got on a horse and with a flag of the SDA - that is

12 the Party of Democratic Action, this nationalist Muslim extremist party -

13 the Party of Democratic Action, holding that flag in one hand and a

14 grenade in the other, entered a coffee shop in Bijeljina, threw the

15 grenade, which didn't go off. The Serb owner of the restaurant opened

16 fire, shot him, and wounded him."

17 Q. That is what is being claimed not by Serbs, though they say the

18 same, but here you have this statement by a Muslim.

19 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness answer.

20 Yes, Mr. Gusalic.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, that's a lie regarding the

22 flag. I didn't have a flag, Mr. Milosevic, but I did have a grenade. And

23 I am sorry now that I didn't throw the grenade into that coffee shop.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Well, did you throw it in or not?

1 A. I said that unfortunately I didn't.

2 Q. Well, where was that bomb?

3 A. It was in my hand.

4 Q. And how far were you from that coffee shop with that bomb?

5 A. About 15 to 20 metres.

6 Q. I see. And your intention was to throw the bomb?

7 A. Yes, because Arkan's, Seselj's, and Mirko's men were in that cafe.

8 There were no civilians there.

9 Q. We'll come to that later. Who was in the coffee shop?

10 A. I personally know who was in there, sir.

11 Q. So you were a few metres away from the coffee shop with this bomb

12 in your hand, and everyone can see you carrying this bomb and that you

13 intended to throw it in there; is that right? So it was quite clear to

14 everyone in that cafe that you intended to throw the bomb at them?

15 A. There were two guards in front, armed guards in front of that

16 cafe.

17 Q. Now, whether they were guards or not, it's rather unbelievable,

18 but it was quite clear that you were carrying this hand grenade and

19 intended to throw it at the Srbija coffee bar. You were wounded there.

20 Where were you wounded?

21 A. In my leg.

22 Q. In your leg. And what happened then?

23 A. I went to the hospital, and I escaped.

24 Q. And who took you to hospital?

25 A. It doesn't matter. I won't tell you.

1 Q. Didn't those same men who had wounded you and who had prevented

2 you from throwing the grenade take you to hospital?

3 A. No. They continued shooting, sir.

4 Q. They continued shooting at you?

5 A. They were shooting towards the Istanbul coffee bar.

6 Q. I see. We'll come to that later. Now, tell me, please, is it

7 true that you went to the Radojka Lakic elementary school?

8 A. Yes.

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 JUDGE MAY: That is totally irrelevant. That's a most improper

12 question.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May --

14 JUDGE MAY: No, it is not a proper question, and the witness will

15 not have to answer it. Now, kindly confine yourself to what is relevant

16 and proper.

17 MR. NICE: May that passage be redacted from the transcript.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Now, go on to something else.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You, Mr. --

20 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Gusalic.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shame on you, Mr. Milosevic.

22 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Gusalic, I can understand that you'll be annoyed,

23 but try not to be. You will be protected from questions of that sort.

24 You're not here to harry the witnesses or bully them, Mr.

25 Milosevic. Now you'll confine yourself to proper questions.

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1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I think that this is proof

2 that Mr. Nice is abusing this witness. He is obtaining statements from

3 him which are not truthful.

4 JUDGE MAY: You can ask the witness proper questions. Now, get --

5 move on to that.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] For instance, Mr. May, a moment ago

7 we heard Mr. Nice's questions having to do with certain men found with

8 their throats slit which they carried, buried, and so on, and I noted this

9 down. This was some 15 or 20 minutes ago, in front of all of us; that

10 they found them, that they were civilians, some had been shot, some had

11 their throat slit. And I was surprised, because I didn't pay attention to

12 that when I read the statement of the witness. I reread it quickly.

13 There's not a word about it. Where did this come from now?

14 JUDGE MAY: Of course you can put the statement to the witness.

15 That's a perfectly proper form of cross-examination. What isn't is to

16 abuse them. Now, let's move on.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Gusalic, if what you just said is true, how come that you

19 didn't consider it important to tell the investigators when you were

20 making your statement? How come you forgot such a "minute" matter

21 regarding some 40 people killed and slaughtered and now you suddenly

22 remembered such an event? How is that possible? Could you explain that

23 for me?

24 A. In my life I never lied.

25 Q. I believe you.

1 A. Never.

2 Q. That is clear. But how come you didn't say that in your

3 statement? Why is that not in your statement and you suddenly remembered

4 finding these people?

5 A. That should be in the statement. I think it should be in the

6 statement. Read that statement more carefully.

7 Q. Well, if it is in the statement, I'll withdraw this question.

8 There's no problems whatsoever. We can move on now.

9 You say that you're not a member of any political party; is that

10 right?

11 A. No, I'm not.

12 Q. According to my information, you are a member of the Party of

13 Democratic Action from its very foundation. So you're not.

14 A. You're making me laugh. I have a mixed marriage. My first

15 marriage and my second marriage was a mixed marriage. I was not

16 interested in the war, sir.

17 Q. Yes, but are you living in that mixed marriage with your wife?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you get on well, don't you?

20 A. I have two wives, and both are Serb.

21 Q. So you have two wives?

22 A. And they are both Serbian.

23 Q. Very well. Tell me, please, maybe the information I have is

24 incorrect, because I don't know anyone in Bijeljina so I can only talk

25 about what I heard from others.

1 Is it true that you were convicted several times before the war

2 because of various incidents, fights, provoking squabbles on an ethnic

3 basis? Is that true?

4 A. No, it isn't.

5 Q. So you were never convicted?

6 A. No.

7 JUDGE MAY: That's a convenient time. We will adjourn now for 20

8 minutes.

9 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

10 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Gusalic, a moment ago, you told me about some bodies and

14 people whose throats had been slit, and you said that it must have been in

15 the statement. I have taken a look at your statement during the break,

16 and this is what it says in your statement. It's on page 9 of your

17 statement, and you say: "In the camp in Doboj, I stayed for eleven and a

18 half months. We had to dig trenches up at the front but not during the

19 shooting."

20 That's what it says in your statement. Then you go on to say:

21 "During the fighting, we would have to take out the bodies of the killed

22 Serb soldiers from the front."

23 That's what you also state.

24 A. Well, read it once again. It must be there somewhere.

25 Q. What did you say?

1 A. Well, read the statement with greater care. It must be there.

2 Q. Could you find what you claim you say in your statement, please.

3 A. Well, I don't know. I have only completed eight years of

4 schooling, and I can't read. I don't know how to read.

5 Q. Well, I can't read through it. Perhaps the opposite side can help

6 me and find what you claim you say in your statement about those

7 slaughtered persons.

8 A. Yes, about 40 of them. That's what I said.

9 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Gusalic, help us with this.

10 Mr. Nice, do you want to add anything?

11 MR. NICE: I was going to respond to the accused's invitation by

12 saying this is a matter that, as I understood it, emerged first in

13 proofing.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Well, at least we've

16 cleared that point up.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. You mentioned Mirko Blagojevic, and you said that people gathered

19 there, Chetniks with beards, as you say, and so on. So what colour was

20 Mirko Blagojevic's beard? Was it black or was it grey, white?

21 A. Mirko Blagojevic didn't have any colour. He didn't have a beard.

22 Q. You mean so others had a beard?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you know that the co-owner of the house in which the Srbija

25 coffee bar was located, the co-owner, and actually the entrance is the

1 same, just half a metre one from another, the co-owner's name is Demir

2 Dizdarevic, and he's a Muslim. Do you know of him? Have you heard of

3 him?

4 A. No, I did not know.

5 Q. Well, do you know that in the coffee bar itself, when you wanted

6 to throw your hand grenade inside, that there were Serbs and Muslims

7 inside?

8 A. Well, I was in the coffee bar, and I saw who was inside.

9 Q. So do you claim that it wasn't Serbs and Croats who were inside?

10 A. No, sir.

11 Q. What do you mean, that there were or not?

12 A. That there were only Serbs inside; Arkan's men, Seselj's men, and

13 Mirko's men, armed to the teeth. Yes, that's how it was.

14 Q. Well, my information tells me that nobody was armed. There was

15 just one pistol that somebody had borrowed, of the 7.65 millimetre calibre

16 type, and that they shot at you from that pistol when you started throwing

17 the bomb.

18 A. That's a lie, sir. You haven't been informed correctly.

19 Q. Well, there are other people who were there, so we'll be able to

20 clear that up. But let's move on for now.

21 You say that the soldiers who entered the coffee bar called

22 Srbija, and you say that in your statement on page 2, paragraph 6, that

23 they were wearing camouflage uniforms, that they did not have any special

24 caps. How can an ordinary army have any special caps, and what kind of

25 caps did they wear at all? Tell me that.

1 A. Well, there were soldiers, different types of soldiers there. The

2 radicals, they had the cockade type of caps. The others had the panthers

3 or, rather, the tiger insignia.

4 Q. So on the basis of what do you draw your conclusion that they were

5 Arkan's and Seselj's men, as you say?

6 A. Well, they had a different accent.

7 Q. What did you say?

8 A. Well, we talk differently from the Serbian people.

9 Q. So you made your observations and conclusions on the basis of

10 accent whether somebody was from Serbia and from Bijeljina and so on?

11 A. Yes, of course.

12 Q. And if they say that they were people from Bijeljina there, would

13 that be a lie? Would that not be the truth?

14 A. How could it be the truth?

15 Q. All right. Fine. Now, tell me this: As you said that Mirko

16 Blagojevic was a functionary of the Serbian Radical Party, and you say

17 there were no Muslims and so on and so forth, do you know or have you

18 heard about a man whose name was Izet Selihbegovic, nicknamed Izo Beg?

19 Have you ever heard of him? You're from Bijeljina yourself.

20 A. Yes, I have.

21 Q. Well, do you know that this Muslim, Izo Beg, is the secretary of

22 the Serbian Radical Party? Is that true? Is that correct?

23 A. I don't know if it's correct and true but I've heard about it.

24 Q. You've heard about it. Right. Now, how then do you explain that

25 a party of any kind, as you say, is persecuting the Muslims whereas the

1 secretary of the party itself is a Muslim himself?

2 A. Well, maybe he changed his name.

3 Q. What did you say? Changed what?

4 A. His name.

5 Q. Well, Izo Beg hasn't changed his name.

6 A. Well, then I don't know.

7 Q. And do you know that even before the war he was a deputy of the

8 Serbian Radical Party in the Bijeljina municipality, for example?

9 A. I don't know. I didn't delve in politics much.

10 Q. Do you know that at the last parliamentary elections he was a

11 candidate put forward by the Serbian Radical Party for the parliament of

12 Republika Srpska? He was on their ticket of the Serbian Radical Party.

13 But anyway, yesterday in the examination-in-chief, you started off

14 by making an observation, and that was that your brothers were in the army

15 of Republika Srpska; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Well, how then do you explain -- and your brothers are of course

18 Muslims like yourself.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How do you explain, then, that they were in the army of Republika

21 Srpska if that army of Republika Srpska, as you say, persecuted Muslims?

22 A. Because they went up to the frontline. They pushed the Muslims to

23 the frontline so that Muslims could kill Muslims. So they were forced to.

24 Q. Do you wish to say that they were forced?

25 A. Well, yes of course. They wouldn't go as volunteers, would they?

1 Q. All right. So they weren't in the army of Republika Srpska

2 voluntarily, of their own free will. They didn't bear arms of their own

3 free will and fight voluntarily in those ranks?

4 A. Well, how would they be volunteers to shoot at their own people,

5 to shoot at me as their brother? There's no logic there.

6 Q. Well, this was a confrontation and conflict with Muslim extremists

7 and not a conflict with the Muslims as such. Is that so or not, Mr.

8 Gusalic?

9 A. Yes, and after a year in Republika Srpska and the Serbian army,

10 they had to flee.

11 Q. All right. Now, as you yourself are from Bijeljina, and as you

12 say that the Muslims were allegedly there by force, that they were forced

13 to be there, do you know that the 3rd Semberija Brigade which was deployed

14 in Bijeljina and in the environs in Bijeljina, further afield, numbered

15 several thousand fighters, 95 per cent of those were Muslims? Are you

16 aware of that? Do you know about that?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Have you heard about Major Pasaga Halilovic?

19 A. No, I haven't, and I'm not interested either.

20 Q. Major Pasaga Halilovic --

21 A. I'm not interested in that.

22 Q. What did you say?

23 A. I'm not interested in that. I'm not going to answer those

24 questions, sir.

25 Q. Well, you're duty-bound to answer. You can say you don't know,

1 but you can't say that you refuse to answer questions.

2 A. Well, I don't know and I'm not going to answer that. I don't know

3 that, sir.

4 Q. Well, do you believe that there is a man in Bijeljina -- that

5 there can be a man in Bijeljina, a single person who hasn't heard of Major

6 Pasaga Halilovic? Do you know that he was the director of the Duvan

7 factory?

8 A. I haven't heard of him.

9 Q. All right. If you haven't heard of Pasaga Halilovic, who was the

10 commander of the brigade which was composed of Muslims and was within the

11 composition of the army of Republika Srpska, have you heard of Major

12 Sejfudin Guri, for example, who was the Chief of Staff of that particular

13 unit?

14 A. No.

15 Q. So you haven't heard of Sejfudin Guri either. And he was also a

16 professor teaching protection and self-defence at the agricultural school

17 before the war. Do you know about that?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Have you heard of Captain Sead Tikvec then?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Have you heard of Captain Hajrudin Hajro, who was commander of the

22 artillery in that brigade?

23 A. In the Republika Srpska?

24 Q. Yes, in the VRS, the army of Republika Srpska, the 3rd Semberija

25 Brigade.

1 A. No, I haven't heard of him.

2 Q. It was almost 100 per cent Muslim.

3 A. Well, that would appear, sir, that the Serbs didn't go into battle

4 at all, that it was just the Muslims.

5 Q. What I'm saying is that many Muslims from Bijeljina resisted the

6 attacks and stood up to the attacks launched by extremists who had blocked

7 Bijeljina and who were engaged in attacking the region. These are people

8 who still live in Bijeljina today and who without a doubt are Muslims

9 themselves.

10 Sir, have you heard of Dr. Nedzad Havic, for example, who was head

11 of the medical corps in the brigade?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You haven't heard about him either?

14 A. No.

15 Q. All right. And what about Joldic Jusuf? Does the name ring a

16 bell?

17 A. No.

18 Q. How about Samir Joldic? Do you know him? They're all people from

19 Bijeljina.

20 A. I don't know them. If they were there in Bijeljina, well, I don't

21 know them.

22 Q. Do you know Alija Omerovic?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you know Salcin Mehic or Alija Durakovic? Do you know them?

25 A. No.

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1 Q. They're all from Bijeljina. How about Ramo Durakovic and Sead

2 Becirovic?

3 A. Well, you're quoting names, the whole of Bijeljina, but I don't

4 know any of them who were in the Republika Srpska.

5 Q. How about Alija Berberovic, or Emil Vilic? Do you know them?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Or Ferid Teric?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Well, all right. I'm not going to read out any more names. The

10 list is a long one. They're all the names of Muslims who were in the

11 units of the army of Republika Srpska, precisely from your town,

12 Bijeljina, and you're testifying about that. And do you know that that

13 particular brigade held a whole section of the front which ran for dozens

14 of kilometres?

15 A. And are you saying they all went on a voluntary basis?

16 Q. Well, if they didn't want to go to the front, they could have

17 turned round and gone back. It was a whole brigade. There couldn't have

18 been anybody behind them.

19 A. Yes, sir, but where were their families? They left their families

20 behind. You leave your family and they send you to the front. You escape

21 to the other side and they kill your wife and children, sir.

22 Q. You mean the whole brigade?

23 A. Yes, the whole brigade.

24 Q. All right. Then that's a very good explanation that you've just

25 given. My information tells me that the unit held positions from Orasje

1 to Brcko.

2 A. And where were their families? An example: My brothers. They

3 went to the front line, and their families remained in Bijeljina. Had

4 they tried to escape, their families would have been killed.

5 Q. Do you know that apart from Bijeljina another well-known Muslim

6 unit within the composition of the army of Republika Srpska was the Mesa

7 Selimovic detachment from Derventa. Have you heard of them?

8 A. There were several thousand Muslims in that one.

9 Q. All right. So you're saying you know nothing about all that, and

10 you consider that the facts I have just quoted are not correct and true.

11 All right. Fine.

12 A. They can't be correct and true.

13 Q. Fine. Very well. Now, tell me this: As you claim that in the

14 village of Amajlije --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. -- members of some Serb formations were put up, accommodated.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And I wrote -- made a note of this yesterday, of what you said.

19 You said that whoever comes to Amajlije was either slaughtered or tortured

20 because it was a kind of camp.

21 A. Yes, yes, that's right.

22 Q. Do you know that there was no camp at all in Amajlije, or any

23 formations or units.

24 A. That's what you say.

25 Q. What did you say?

1 A. That's what you say.

2 Q. Yes, that's what I claim on the basis of my information.

3 A. But that's not right, sir. There was one.

4 Q. There was a centre in the village of Popovi which is quite

5 opposite to Amajlije.

6 A. It was the village of Amajlije, sir.

7 Q. All right. Fine. As you say so. We'll be able to establish the

8 truth very easily on that point.

9 Now, tell me this, please, since you didn't know about Izo Beg,

10 you hadn't heard of him who was the secretary of the Serbian Radical

11 Party, do you happen to know Albin Arifovic, the son of the president of

12 the municipality of Bijeljina, Saki Arifovic, the mayor of the

13 municipality, and this Albin Arifovic was a man who worked in the coffee

14 bar named Srbija, Srbija.

15 A. No, I don't know.

16 Q. He was a Muslim. He was an employee there.

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Don't you know that?

19 A. No.

20 Q. How about Professor Rasim Jusupovic? Have you heard of him? Have

21 you heard of Professor Rasim Jusupovic?

22 A. No.

23 Q. He gave an interview for the Muslim media in the year 2000 in

24 which he said that the Muslims had a great deal of protection from this

25 man Mirko Blagojevic whom you blame and hold responsible of the leader of

1 the Serbian Radical Party in Bijeljina.

2 A. Because he -- people want to go back and they have nowhere to go

3 back to, sir. I'm not interested in Bijeljina, sir. I've lost my health,

4 and I have no intention of going back there.

5 Q. Do you know of an open letter written by Mirko Blagojevic and

6 dated 1992, sent to all the authorities, telling them that the Serbian

7 authorities from Bijeljina will not allow any hair of the Muslims' head to

8 be harmed or allow any Muslim, not a single Muslim, to be expelled from

9 Bijeljina? Do you know about that letter?

10 A. Yes I do.

11 Q. That nothing would happen.

12 A. Nothing will happen but they will be slaughtered, their throats

13 will be slit. What did he do with Redzep and Cosa?

14 Q. We'll come to Cosa in due course.

15 A. As you've just asked me that.

16 Q. Yes, I'm asking you that. You're speaking untruths when you say

17 that Cosa's sister told you that Cosa had been killed.

18 A. Yes, when she came to the hospital.

19 Q. This sister of Cosa's gave an interview to the Sarajevo paper

20 Oslobodjenje and said that he died at home. So in her interview that's

21 what she says.

22 A. What did you say, died?

23 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness answer the question. It's been put

24 that this man died at home.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He died voluntarily, did he? Of his

1 own free will?

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Well, I don't know that anybody dies of their own free will,

4 voluntarily, but between being killed and dying in your own home, there's

5 a big difference.

6 A. He was completely deformed. There are witnesses, sir, who saw him

7 personally and would be able to testify. He didn't have a human face any

8 more.

9 Q. So what his sister said for the Sarajevo Oslobodjenje is probably

10 a lie, is it?

11 JUDGE MAY: No. That's a comment.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Do you know Jasmin Sabic, nicknamed Jasko, who used to work in the

14 sugar factory and moved to Switzerland and who is still a sympathiser of

15 the Serbian Radical Party to this day and one of their sponsors? Do you

16 know of him? And he lives in Switzerland, so nobody can persecute him

17 there, can they?

18 A. And he sent money for the army of Republika Srpska, did he? What

19 did you say? That he sent money?

20 Q. I didn't say that he sent money for the army of Republika Srpska.

21 What I said was that he was a sympathiser of the Serbian Radical Party.

22 A. Yes, I do know him.

23 JUDGE MAY: We are not being helped by this particularly about

24 events at the moment. So let's move on to something else rather than

25 reading out a series of names about which the witness knows nothing.

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Please, on page 3, paragraph 1, you speak about an incident that

3 took place when a bomb, a grenade was thrown at the Cafe Istanbul; is that

4 right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You said that the bomb was thrown by a man called Goran.

7 A. Yes; Goran or Zoran, I don't remember.

8 Q. And do you happen to know, because there are documents to evidence

9 this, first that the incident took place some ten days prior to the

10 outbreak of the war, not one day before the war broke out?

11 A. Ten days you say? What did you say?

12 Q. Ten days before the war broke out.

13 A. Yes, that's right. No, that's not correct.

14 Q. I am satisfied with any of your answers, whether you say yes or

15 no, because we'll be able to establish the truth.

16 Now, do you know that the man who threw the bomb was not called

17 Goran?

18 A. Well, he was either Goran or Zoran.

19 Q. Well, in your statement you say that this was not established, and

20 my information tells me that the man's name was Aleksandar Zekic, that he

21 was from Dvorovi near Bijeljina, and that he was arrested straight away

22 and taken off to the prison in Tuzla on order from the head of the

23 Secretariat for Internal Affairs in Bijeljina, and his name was Jesuric

24 Predrag, the man who issued the orders. But this Aleksandar Zekovic was

25 nicknamed Andalaga, and he threw the bomb, he was arrested and taken off

1 to the prison in Tuzla. And all this took place about ten days before the

2 war broke out. So the police intervened and arrested the man.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

4 JUDGE MAY: I've stopped your microphone because you're going on

5 much too long. There are a series of questions there. We'll go through

6 them one by one.

7 What is suggested by the accused, and you can help us or not,

8 Mr. Gusalic, is that the man who threw the bomb was called Aleksandar

9 Zekic. That's what he suggests. Can you help us as to whether that is or

10 may be the case or not?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know his name for sure, but

12 I know he's from Dvorovi. I thought his name was Zoran.

13 JUDGE MAY: The next point is --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And it is true that he was taken to

15 the prison in Tuzla.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. So have we cleared that up? Have we also cleared up the fact that

19 this was about ten days before the beginning of the war?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Well, how many days prior to the beginning of the war was this

22 incident in which this man threw the grenade and was arrested and taken to

23 prison by order of the chief of the SUP, a Serb, Jesuric Predrag?

24 A. They were all Serbs, or most of them were Serbs in the SUP in the

25 larger towns, mostly.

1 Q. It is normal in Bijeljina that most of them should be Serbs,

2 because Bijeljina was mostly inhabited by Serbs.

3 A. No. Bijeljina as such was a Muslim majority. The town had a

4 majority.

5 Q. But it doesn't matter. That's easy to establish. We have a

6 population census, and it's easy to know. There is no point in us

7 bothering over that.

8 Do you know that this guy, this man who threw the grenade, was

9 arrested, taken to Tuzla, that he was a mental patient and an alcoholic?

10 A. I heard about that. Apparently when you're talking, everyone was

11 a mental patient that graduated from special schools.

12 Q. No. Quite the opposite. Only the individuals, specific

13 individuals that I mentioned. They are data that I have.

14 So regardless of the fact that he was a mental patient and an

15 alcoholic, he was arrested and taken to the prison in Tuzla because he did

16 what he did. He was arrested by Serbs and taken to the prison by Serbs.

17 But very well. In your statement you said that in those days in

18 the Istanbul coffee bar, seven Muslims were wounded; five men and two

19 women. This is stated in your statement. Is this what you said?

20 A. There were some wounded Serb as well, Mr. Milosevic.

21 Q. That's precisely what I wanted to ask you about, Mr. Gusalic. Do

22 you know the name of Goran Vasalic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I see. You know him. He is the man known as Goran Kriska, a

25 well-known basketball player from Bijeljina. Do you know him?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So he's the Vasilic man. Do you know that he's a Serb and that he

3 lives in the area called Kriska?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you know that this Goran was wounded in that very Istanbul

6 coffee bar?

7 A. Yes, I do know that.

8 Q. Was he in hospital with you?

9 A. Yes, he was.

10 Q. Do you know that a young woman called Sofija, also a Serb woman,

11 was wounded at that same attack?

12 A. I do know that, Mr. Milosevic, yes. I do know that.

13 Q. So do you think that this attack can be described as an attack by

14 a Serb nationalist against Muslims or was it an attack by an alcoholic who

15 couldn't account for his actions and who committed a crime?

16 JUDGE MAY: Don't bother to answer that. Characterisation of the

17 attack is not for the witness. He can mainly give evidence purely about

18 what happened. It's not for him to describe it. Yes.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Very well. Since I have information here that there was a spirit

21 of tolerance between Serbs and Muslims in Bijeljina, that they lived in

22 harmony right up until that day when the Green Berets and the so-called

23 League blocked Bijeljina and set up barricades and captured, took control

24 of Bijeljina. Do you know that, for instance, in the Srbija coffee bar,

25 owned by --

1 JUDGE MAY: You've put things -- you can't simply put things and

2 just pass by.

3 The first question -- two questions in what's been put,

4 Mr. Gusalic. The first question: Was there a spirit of tolerance between

5 the Serbs and Muslims in Bijeljina before the war?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there was.

7 JUDGE MAY: The next question: And that was broken up, if you

8 will, when the Green Berets set up barricades and captured, it's said, and

9 took control of Bijeljina. Did the Green Berets take control of

10 Bijeljina, first of all?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what Mr. Milosevic

12 implies under the Green Berets.

13 JUDGE MAY: No. Don't worry about that for the moment, what he

14 means by the Green Berets. Let's look at it another way. Was it a Muslim

15 force of some sort who broke up the previous spirit of tolerance and

16 harmony?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what to say. There was

18 tension.

19 JUDGE MAY: Just tell us how it happened. Just explain to us how

20 it all started, if you will.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was tension because people

22 were coming from Serbia to this village of Amajlije that Mr. Milosevic

23 says I'm lying about, and this was common knowledge, that attack was being

24 prepared on Bijeljina.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Very well. Are you denying that apart from the incidents we

2 described, there was nothing until the Green Berets and members of the

3 Patriotic League of People, Muslim formations, took over control of

4 Bijeljina, erected barricades, and blocked the whole city? Are you aware

5 of that?

6 A. Everyone has to defend himself when he sees that somebody wants to

7 kill him.

8 Q. What were they defending themselves against when nothing had

9 happened before that? Why did they block the town, erect barricades and

10 distribute weapons? Why? Had anyone attacked them before that? Or were

11 they expecting to be attacked and that's why they did that?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Do you know all the places that were blocked and where the

14 roadblocks were set up?

15 A. By the Muslims?

16 Q. Yes, the Muslims. So you don't know about that? No?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Very well. That's fine. We have some other witnesses here and

19 we'll be able to clear that up with them.

20 Now, tell me, please, what was Izet Gogic doing, known as Goga the

21 Gypsy?

22 A. What was he called?

23 Q. Goga the Gypsy. That's what it says in my notes here.

24 A. First of all, he's not a Gypsy, he's a Muslim. And he worked

25 privately.

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1 Q. My question is what he did.

2 A. He worked as a mason, as a private builder.

3 Q. How did you meet?

4 A. We had known each other for some time.

5 Q. Is it true that just before the war he was a horse carriage

6 driver?

7 A. I'm unable to say.

8 Q. Do you know that he was given money by your party, the SDA, to

9 open a coffee bar? That is he was given this money by Ferid Zecevic?

10 A. You mean Mirko Blagojevic?

11 Q. No, no. I'm talking about Izet Gogic.

12 A. So you think Mirko gave him money.

13 Q. No. I'm saying that he got money from the SDA. Not from SRS but

14 from the SDA, from Ferid Zecevic.

15 A. No, sir. That's something you didn't note down well in your

16 record.

17 Q. And this Izet Gogic and Cosa the Boxer, is that right, they spoke

18 to you before you started off to throw the grenade. Did they persuade you

19 to do that?

20 A. Nobody persuaded me.

21 Q. Who gave you the bomb?

22 A. Goga gave it to me because I didn't have the money to buy one.

23 Q. So Goga gave you the bomb. Was Cosa there too?

24 A. Yes, we were there together.

25 Q. And they told you to go and throw the bomb into the Cafe Srbija?

1 A. No one told me, sir.

2 Q. So they gave you a bomb to play with?

3 A. They gave me the bomb.

4 Q. And do you know how much time Cosa the Boxer had spent in prison?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. You don't know that he was convicted to prison sentences for

7 several years on several occasions for various criminal offences? You

8 know nothing about that?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Well, that's fine. And you are claiming that he was killed rather

11 than dying at home.

12 A. Of course he was killed. He was massacred. He was mutilated.

13 Q. Do you know who Cosa's sister is married to?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. Do you know where she lives now?

16 A. I don't know.

17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, what are we going on about here?

18 You're wasting a great deal of time, it seems to be, quite unnecessarily

19 with these side issues. Remember, your time is limited. This witness has

20 given very serious evidence about what happened him to in the camps. If

21 you challenge that, if you suggest it's not true, then you should do so

22 while he's here giving evidence instead of wasting time in this way with

23 side issues. If you don't challenge it, of course we accept the evidence,

24 but if you do challenge it, you should cross-examine him about it.

25 THE ACCUSED: Surely it is clear, Mr. May, that I am denying all

1 his statement.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Is it -- do you know that this same Cosa brought men from Sandzak

4 --

5 JUDGE MAY: Never mind the statements. You should move on to the

6 camps. Your time is limited. If you're suggesting that what he said

7 about what happened in the camps isn't true in some way, then you should

8 put that part of the case to him instead of these side issues. Now, move

9 on.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, do you consider it to be a

11 side issue as to how the war in Bijeljina started, how the Green Berets

12 blocked Bijeljina?

13 JUDGE MAY: You have spent the best part of 40 minutes on this.

14 Your time is limited. You have had probably more than half of it. You

15 should move on to something else. The witness says he can't help any

16 more.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will move on to something else to

18 meet your request, Mr. May, since you're talking about camps. I have here

19 two documents which I also received from the side opposite under Rule 68

20 disclosure. For one, I don't know what it is at all because I was only

21 given two pages, pages four and five of it. They probably felt that they

22 didn't need to give me the whole document. It is marked 00290957, and

23 it's a report which speaks about -- what was its name? Batkovic.

24 Batkovic. And it says: [In English] "Approximately 1.000 Muslim

25 prisoners was visited in Batkovic in north-eastern Bosnia. The prisoners

1 did not complain of ill-treatment, and in general, appeared to be in good

2 health. However, they sleep on straw bedding on the floor of a cavernous

3 unheated stable where living conditions will become intolerable as the

4 cold weather arrives."

5 [Interpretation] I'm reading with interruptions because I'm

6 listening to the interpreters, and I would like it to be correctly

7 interpreted to the witness, as it has been done indeed.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. So Mr. Gusalic, can you comment on this? As far as I'm able to

10 tell, this is a report of the International Red Cross that visited

11 Batkovic.

12 A. I didn't understand the question.

13 Q. Well, they're saying here that the prisoners are not complaining

14 of ill-treatment and that, generally speaking, they appear to be in good

15 health. That is what is stated in the report. I gave the page that I was

16 given from the party opposite. It is no report of mine.

17 So is that true or not?

18 A. No.

19 Q. So it's not true. Okay.

20 MR. NICE: I think the report is not Red Cross but Special

21 Rapporteur of the United Nations.

22 JUDGE MAY: Have we got the original?

23 MR. NICE: I have the same extract that's been served on --

24 JUDGE MAY: We may have an extract.

25 MR. NICE: Yes, because we haven't served the entire report. I

1 can dig it out and see how much it amounts to in full but I think it's UN

2 Special Rapporteur not Red Cross.

3 JUDGE MAY: The sensible thing, I think, would be to mark it for

4 identification for the moment and for you to produce, if you would, the

5 relevant parts of the original so that we can have it in front us,

6 including a date of the inspection.

7 We'll mark it for identification and we'll get the original out of

8 the Prosecution and we will exhibit it. Perhaps we'll have a number,

9 please.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Defence Exhibit 114, Your Honours, marked for

11 identification.

12 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. If you'd like to hand in those two

13 pages so that a copy can be made.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, you can take them. And I have

15 highlighted the part that I have quoted. I was only given those two pages

16 in this connection.

17 And now I have another report which was also served on me under

18 Rule 68 disclosure.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes. I'm sorry. Move on.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So this, as far as I am able to

21 gather, is a report by Reuters dated 1993. Actually, the copyright is

22 1993, the 26th of February, but it doesn't say which year, and I'll only

23 quote a couple of paragraphs from it: "Bosnian Serbs set up Batkovic [in

24 English] farm which functions normally on the flat lands around soon after

25 the start of the war last April, described as a collection centre for

1 Muslims and Croats who in any way participated in combat activities or

2 collecting weapons and ammunition. There is no obvious rancor between

3 prisoners and Serbs, and the International Red Cross visits every week."

4 [Interpretation] This was given to me in its entirety, and at the

5 end, since they're interviewing this Savic who, as I am able to gather,

6 was some sort of an official over there, and it says: [In English]

7 "Returning Serbs were in worse physical condition than Muslims and Croats

8 from Batkovic, that there is no evidence of violence or malnutrition."

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Now, is what I have quoted from the document and contained in the

11 document correct or not, Mr. Gusalic? You can say yes or no, whichever

12 you like, and then we can move on.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And I'd like to tender this as well.

14 Could you please include this document, Mr. May.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Milosevic, that is a pure lie.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. All right. Very well.

18 JUDGE MAY: It says two things. First of all, it was merely a

19 collection centre for Muslims and Croats who had participated in combat

20 activities. Is there any truth in that?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No truth whatsoever. They were all

22 civilians. Just two young guys were captured who were up at the

23 frontline. They were otherwise all women, children, and elderly persons.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. And is it true that the International Red Cross every week paid a

1 visit, as it says in this statement? This is not a Serbian statement or

2 report.

3 A. I don't know if it was every week, but, yes, it did come by often,

4 and they did not register the ten of us.

5 Q. Not the ten of you.

6 A. Yes. The ten of us who were beaten, the specials. The elderly

7 persons were not recorded either, nor were the children. The Yugoslav

8 army, the Muslims who were released, dismissed, they too were not

9 registered. They were hidden.

10 Q. So who then was registered? All right. Well, we'll be able to

11 establish that. I just wish to ascertain one point. You yourself were

12 not registered. That's right, isn't it?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, did you read your name from the list a moment ago?

15 A. Sir, I was registered in Doboj, in Doboj camp, not in Batkovici.

16 Q. So what you read out, is that from the Doboj camp, the list you

17 read out from? Was the list from the Doboj camp?

18 A. They were the young guys who were in Batkovic.

19 Q. What did you say?

20 A. In Batkovic.

21 Q. Yes. Well, you're on that same list, aren't you? So how do you

22 say that you weren't registered if you can read your name from the list?

23 A. You and I speak the same language, and I said that we were

24 registered in Doboj. In the first two and a half or three months, I was

25 beaten and hidden away and then transported to Doboj where the Red Cross

1 found me later. Somebody told them. And the ten of us were registered

2 then.

3 Q. All right. I cannot accept that explanation of yours.

4 A. You don't have to accept anything, as far as I can see.

5 Q. As to those events when the war broke out in Bijeljina, how many

6 people from Sandzak did you see and how many Albanians from Kosovo did you

7 see? How many of one and how many of the other? You can give me separate

8 figures.

9 A. Well, I don't know exactly.

10 Q. All right. Roughly. A rough estimate. I don't -- I'm not asking

11 for an exact figure.

12 A. Well, I didn't see a single one.

13 Q. What did you say?

14 A. I didn't see a single one.

15 Q. You didn't see a single one. And do you know that it was

16 precisely this man Cosa who you say was a friend of yours who brought in

17 people from Sandzak and Albanians to Bijeljina in preparation for the

18 blockade of Bijeljina and the war against the Serbs?

19 A. What did you say?

20 Q. You don't know?

21 A. No.

22 Q. And do you know who Djuk Smail is?

23 A. I don't know. I'm not good at remembering names. I don't even

24 know my children's names.

25 Q. You don't know your children's names?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Oh, fine.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know, Mr. May, as you have

4 cautioned me and said that I asked improper questions, there are some

5 other questions which in your opinion could be -- have been along these

6 lines, but the witness himself says he doesn't know the names of his

7 children, and the improper questions that I asked are relevant in order to

8 assess the credibility of this person's testimony, a person who was --

9 JUDGE MAY: I don't think he means that literally he doesn't

10 remember his children's names or whether he forgets them from time to

11 time. It's a common enough experience for anybody.

12 If you want to raise something along these lines, we better go

13 into private session.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, yes. Let's move into private

15 session just for a second.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

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17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE MAY: The two matters are these: Mr. Nice, on Exhibit 414,

20 we did not exhibit tab 2, as I understand it.

21 MR. NICE: Correct.

22 JUDGE MAY: And we should remove that then from our bundles.

23 MR. NICE: Correct.

24 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Thank you. And Mr. Milosevic, you want to

25 exhibit your Reuters report; is that right? Very well. Could you hand it

1 in, please, and we'll get a number for it.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Gusalic --

4 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. We're going to get a number for the

5 Reuters report.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the Reuters report will be Defence

7 Exhibit 115.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. Gusalic, do you know a company called Djuk Auto in Bijeljina?

10 A. Djuk Auto did you say?

11 Q. Yes, Djuk Auto. It had premises, large premises. Obrijez. You

12 know where Obrijez is, I presume.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And it had large office premises there at Obrijez, didn't it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And do you know that that is where the Green Berets and Patriotic

17 League had their camp? Do you know about that?

18 A. No.

19 Q. All right. Fine. And do you happen to know some people who were

20 -- had nicknames Sajto and Gara?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You know them. Well, then, you ought to know that it is precisely

23 those people that conducted the training in that particular camp.

24 A. I know the guys, but I didn't know that they did any training.

25 Q. But they are from the Silosi settlement, district; right?

1 A. Yes, but I didn't know about the other.

2 Q. But you do know the men?

3 A. Yes, I know them.

4 Q. And you know nothing of their activities.

5 A. No.

6 Q. And you know nothing about either the Red -- Green Berets or the

7 Patriotic League that were trained there at that camp at Obrijez? You

8 know nothing about that, is that what you say?

9 A. No, nothing about it.

10 Q. Right. Fine. Just tell me this: When you set out towards the

11 Srbija cafe, were there any incidents that took place before that, any

12 incident before that?

13 A. The bomb was thrown at the Istanbul cafe. That was enough.

14 Q. So that bomb was thrown at the Cafe Istanbul.

15 A. And uniformed persons were being collected up.

16 Q. When was the bomb at the Istanbul thrown before?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When?

19 A. A day or two before.

20 Q. So according to you one day, although here in the statement you

21 say two days, and my information tells me that it was about ten days

22 before, but immediately before you set out on that particular day to throw

23 a bomb, nothing was actually going on, nothing was happening; right?

24 A. How do you mean "nothing"? How can you say "nothing"?

25 Q. Well, what was going on then?

1 A. The army was amassing.

2 Q. What army?

3 A. An attack on Bijeljina was being organised.

4 Q. What did you say?

5 A. An attack on Bijeljina was being organised from the Srbija cafe.

6 Q. An attack on Bijeljina, you say?

7 A. No, sir. The -- Seselj's men, Arkan's men, and Mirko's men, and

8 all the others were collecting up there.

9 Q. Do you mean to say that they attacked Bijeljina before you threw

10 the bomb?

11 A. They were preparing to attack Bijeljina.

12 Q. How do you know?

13 A. Because I was in the Srbija cafe. I first went there, then I went

14 back, sir.

15 Q. But nobody had attacked anybody before that; isn't that right?

16 A. Well, nobody attacked but they were thinking about it.

17 Q. You thought that people were preparing an attack; right?

18 A. Well, they threw a bomb at the Cafe Istanbul, and that happened

19 before. Was that enough? Wasn't that enough? And after that they began

20 to rally their ranks.

21 Q. But that man was arrested and taken off to Tuzla, and this person

22 was not -- was mentally incompetent and he was taken to prison, and the

23 bomb was thrown at Croats and Serbs.

24 Are you saying that the Muslim forces had not blocked Bijeljina

25 prior to that, before the conflict in Bijeljina actually broke out? There

1 was no blockade of Bijeljina, is that what you're saying?

2 JUDGE MAY: He's dealt with that question. Now, this is all

3 repetition about the questions on the cafe. You've dealt with it.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. All right. As you went to hospital, was there a Muslim barricade

6 set up by the hospital?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. There was?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. A moment ago you said there was no blockade.

11 A. The Muslims held control of the hospital when I was there the

12 first two days.

13 Q. All right. But when you set off to hospital, there was a Muslim

14 barricade erected there; right?

15 A. I understand you -- I don't understand you.

16 Q. There was a Muslim barricade at the hospital?

17 A. You mean when I was wounded.

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. No.

20 Q. Later on, then?

21 A. Yes, later on. There were predominantly Muslims by the hospital

22 and the settlements around were Muslim.

23 Q. All right. Did you know anybody up at the barricade? Is it true

24 that it was by Redzep's house or, rather, between the mosque and Redzep's

25 house, the location of the barricade?

1 A. I don't know, sir. I was injured and I was going to hospital and

2 there was nobody there then. And during the two or three days that I

3 spent there, they did hold the hospital, and that was sufficient time for

4 me to recuperate.

5 Q. Well, during those three days, you didn't see the barricade there?

6 A. No. I was lying in bed.

7 Q. Well, when did you see a Muslim barricade then if you say that

8 during the first three days you didn't see one?

9 A. Not barricades, sir. What I saw was that the Muslims were holding

10 the hospital and that area for two or three days. I don't know exactly

11 how long.

12 Q. Let me just show you a picture. I'm not going to take up too much

13 more of your time. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be in this set. Ah,

14 here it is. Just when I thought it was missing.

15 Is this -- take a look at this picture and tell me if this is the

16 Muslim barricade set up at Redzep's house or, rather, the machine-gun

17 nest. Just that photograph with the sandbags. Could it be placed onto

18 the ELMO. Is that it? Is that what you saw?

19 A. How could I see it when I said I hadn't seen it?

20 Q. But you told me that there was a barricade next to the hospital at

21 one point.

22 A. No, sir. I said that the Muslims held the hospital for two or

23 three days. I didn't see any barricades, you see. But of course there

24 were barricades. It's normal. It's normal that there were barricades

25 later on, I assume.

1 Q. So it's normal but you didn't see them. I see, you didn't see

2 them. And you don't recognise this barricade at Redzep's house?

3 A. How could I recognise it when I didn't see it?

4 Q. Very well. Please let me have that picture back.

5 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the picture has never been displayed. May

6 I just have a look at it before it goes back to the accused?

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Show it to the Prosecution, please, and then

8 back to the accused.

9 MR. NICE: Thank you.

10 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Gusalic, are you all right? Are you okay?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you've got, at the most, another

13 quarter of an hour, if you need it.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, let me try to use those 15

15 minutes, Mr. May.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. You mentioned Dr. Kicanovic, if I remember well.

18 A. Yes, a doctor from Bijeljina.

19 Q. Do you know, when this was happening Dr. Kicanovic was not even in

20 Bijeljina, never mind in the hospital. Is that incorrect, what I'm

21 saying?

22 A. Of course it's incorrect when the man treated me.

23 Q. Could you describe Dr. Kicanovic for me? What does he look like?

24 A. An older man. An older man.

25 Q. Well, please describe him.

1 A. Grey hair, maybe between 55 and 60. I don't know exactly. I may

2 be wrong. Looking fit.

3 Q. How much shorter than you?

4 A. A little shorter than me. A little. Not much.

5 Q. Very well. You mentioned Andrija Tufekcic, a Croat from Brcko,

6 didn't you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And what happened to him?

9 A. He was exchanged.

10 Q. Do you know that that is not true, that he was killed?

11 A. Who? Who was killed?

12 Q. Tufekcic.

13 A. He was with me in Doboj. That's not true.

14 Q. I see. It's not true. Very well, well, when was he exchanged?

15 A. Before me.

16 Q. He was exchanged before you.

17 A. Among those first five.

18 Q. I see. Now, let's look into your explanation that the Serbs were

19 planning an attack on Bijeljina. Did you see any kind of an attack on

20 Bijeljina?

21 A. Any kind of attack?

22 Q. Did you see an attack on Bijeljina?

23 A. I saw the shooting in front of the Srbija coffee bar.

24 Q. Very well. But who planned the attack on Bijeljina?

25 A. Mirko, the radicals, and Arkan's men.

1 Q. How do you know that?

2 A. How can I not know?

3 Q. That's not a good answer. How did you know? You didn't attend

4 their meetings. How do you know that they were planning an attack on

5 Bijeljina?

6 A. What were armed soldiers doing walking around Bijeljina? What

7 for?

8 Q. But very well. From the Istanbul coffee bar, was fire opened on

9 Serbs who were in the Srbija coffee bar?

10 A. When the Serbs started shooting, then they responded.

11 Q. After your incident, yes. So do you consider your wounding in the

12 leg to be an attack by the Serbian side?

13 A. They never stopped shooting.

14 Q. And do you remember that the Muslims were carrying weapons from

15 the mosque and by the evening they had already taken control of the city?

16 Is that true or not?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. And do you remember that weapons in the SDA premises, the Party of

19 Democratic Action, were being distributed by Alija Saracevic?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. Is that true or not? Say yes or no.

22 A. I don't know. I don't know.

23 Q. And do you remember sniper nests on the water tower, the silo, at

24 Zitopromet when Stojan Stojanovic was wounded?

25 A. How could I remember when I was in hospital?

1 Q. Very well, then. But that day, before you went to hospital, do

2 you remember harassing the guests at the Semberka Grill Restaurant owned

3 by Ljubisa Rosic?

4 A. I do not remember. I don't know.

5 Q. You don't remember. Well, do you remember that you were harassing

6 all the Serbs walking along Marsal Tito Street?

7 A. Only Serbs?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. I don't remember.

10 Q. You don't remember that either?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And do you know that this attack and the blockade of Bijeljina had

13 spoiled Izetbegovic's plan to capture all locations in Bosnia-Herzegovina

14 at once, and you were in a hurry. You hastened. You did that too

15 quickly, and you spoiled the plan.

16 A. I don't know anything about that.

17 Q. Do you know that Alija Izetbegovic addressed a call to the JNA

18 then, an appeal for the JNA to prevent the conflict, and they came to

19 prevent it?

20 A. Yes, that's what the Plavsic woman said too, that the JNA would

21 resolve everything, and it did indeed at the end.

22 Q. But did they come to prevent the conflict? I wasn't there so I

23 don't know. Alija Izetbegovic asked the JNA to prevent conflicts in

24 Bijeljina.

25 A. To come and kill people.

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1 Q. Well, did the JNA come?

2 A. Yes, they did.

3 Q. Well, did they prevent the conflict?

4 A. Yes, they prevented it. They killed people. And Arkan's men and

5 the Seselj's men went on looting and taking the booty to Serbia.

6 Q. So you're claiming the JNA came to kill Muslims and to loot?

7 A. Yes. Yes. From the garrison. Yes. They were based there.

8 Q. Do you know that that night just when the Muslims attacked and

9 blocked Muslims and captured the centre of the city, the hospital, the

10 Municipal Assembly, the electricity board and other buildings before the

11 Serbs reacted in any way whatsoever? Do you know that?

12 A. No, I don't.

13 Q. And do you know that that same night, on the 31st of March, the

14 warehouse of the barracks was broken into and weapons distributed publicly

15 to the Muslims? Is that true or not?

16 A. That is a bare-faced lie.

17 Q. Very well. And do you know that in the park a bunker was formed,

18 as in other places in the town? I showed you one of those a moment ago.

19 Very well, then. Is it clear that that is what provoked the

20 beginning of the war and not any attack by Serbs? Is that true or not,

21 Mr. Gusalic?

22 A. No, it's not true. That's not how it was.

23 Q. I see. So you are not aware of the snipers from the silo or from

24 the bunkers or the barricades and the fact that Bijeljina was taken

25 control of and completely blocked before the Serbs reacted at all? So you

1 don't know anything about that?

2 A. No.

3 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you have got five minutes left.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. And do you know that this operation, that is the attack on the

6 Serbs in Bijeljina, was led by Hasan Piric, who was later killed? Had you

7 heard of him?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Do you know that a unit called the Black Swans bore his name

10 because he founded that unit, he set it up?

11 A. Hasan Siric maybe, sir.

12 Q. Is that right or not?

13 A. That man did not get killed. He's alive.

14 Q. Did he set up the Black Swans unit that was called after him?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Very well. Can you say when the Muslim forces took control of the

17 city? When exactly did that happen? When did the Muslim forces take

18 control of the city?

19 JUDGE MAY: I don't know how long we're going on with this.

20 You've got two minutes more.

21 Did the Muslims at any stage take control of the city? Can you

22 help us with that, Mr. Gusalic?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not the whole city. For example,

24 the hospital was controlled by the Muslims maybe for two to three days.

25 JUDGE MAY: Can you help us as to when that was or not.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 31st, up until perhaps the 2nd, 3rd.

2 JUDGE MAY: Of what month?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] April, March/April.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Very well. What the Muslim forces had captured and blocked in

6 Bijeljina, when did that happen? Just tell me when, on what day.

7 A. I was wounded on the 31st, around 8.00.

8 Q. Was it then that the Muslims blocked Bijeljina?

9 A. I don't know what to say. I don't know when they blocked it. I

10 was in hospital.

11 Q. And do you know that in the settlement called Vozderic, the

12 Muslims had some conflicts among themselves and there were some

13 casualties?

14 A. I hadn't heard of that. I hear it from you now.

15 Q. And tell me, then, how many weapons did the Muslims in Bijeljina

16 have when they blocked the town regardless whether they blocked the whole

17 town or part of it? You say that you know about the hospital and nothing

18 more. I showed you one machine-gun nest which is of course not in the

19 hospital. So how much weapons did the Muslims have then?

20 A. I don't know. There were some hunting rifles. Mostly hunting

21 rifles.

22 Q. Well, how many?

23 A. A small number.

24 Q. I beg your pardon?

25 A. A small number. A small number.

1 Q. I see. And are you aware of the fact that after the situation was

2 settled and calmed in the town of Bijeljina - and when I say Bijeljina, I

3 mean the town of Bijeljina - that the Muslims surrendered more than 500

4 long-barrelled weapons, which means more than 500 rifles and automatic

5 rifles, and that some had fled with weapons, but over 500 were surrendered

6 when the situation calmed down? You don't know that?

7 A. No.

8 JUDGE MAY: One more question, Mr. Milosevic, and then your time

9 is up.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Tell me then, since you're claiming in answer to my question as to

12 whether you knew that Alija Izetbegovic had asked the JNA to calm the

13 situation down, when did you see the JNA in Bijeljina? Or, rather, to

14 make my question shorter, during those conflicts which flared up in

15 Bijeljina, was the JNA present at all in Bijeljina?

16 A. Yes. Mrs. Plavsic, she said that. And I think she made sure that

17 they should come to their assistance.

18 Q. I am not -- leave Plavsic alone. I'll have occasion to ask her

19 questions. My question, Mr. Gusalic, is in those clashes on the 31st of

20 March, the 1st and 2nd of April, did members of the JNA participate in any

21 way?

22 A. Yes. Yes. In the attack on Bijeljina, yes.

23 Q. Where did the members of the JNA attack Bijeljina from?

24 A. In collaboration with local Serbs.

25 Q. I said where did they attack Bijeljina from?

1 A. From across the Drina.

2 Q. So they crossed the Drina, JNA members, and attacked Bijeljina?

3 JUDGE MAY: You've had your time.

4 Mr. Tapuskovic, have you any questions for this witness?

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I do have some questions, Your

6 Honour, for a few minutes.

7 JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn now. Twenty minutes, please.

8 MR. NICE: Possibly hopefully before Mr. Tapuskovic asks

9 questions, with the Special Rapporteur's report, it's now available for

10 you. It's not a particularly thick document, as you can see. However,

11 there are two points. First of all, by reading the entries at the back of

12 the document, it would appear that the visits to Batkovic camp were on the

13 17th of October, 1992.

14 The second point is this: The accused was only provided with two

15 pages because those were the only two pages that were Rule 68, in our

16 judgement and, therefore, those went his way, and they contain not only

17 comments on Batkovic but also material on other topics of interest to the

18 Chamber and which I suppose I could technically adduce in re-examination

19 if I wanted to. But the balance of the document also contains opinions,

20 some of which are by no means favourable to the interests that the accused

21 of course seeks to advance and therefore the Chamber might want to

22 exercise caution before deciding whether to mark the whole document as an

23 exhibit or to mark it for identification or something of that sort.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, may I just ask one more

25 question. I have several, but just one, because it relates to his

1 statements, and I think it is important. It won't take more than one

2 minute.

3 JUDGE MAY: That would be it.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Gusalic, is it true that in the period we are talking about,

6 you appeared on Bijeljina television and also in Trnovo. You gave an

7 interview to a foreign TV station, and that in both statements you said

8 that the Muslims were to blame for the war, that you were treated

9 correctly, that you had mistreated the Serbs and so on? Is this true? I

10 am referring to two of your interviews, on Bijeljina television and a

11 foreign TV station in Trnovo.

12 A. They told me to say that but I didn't say that. How could I say

13 something that was not true?

14 Q. Did you say that or not?

15 A. What?

16 Q. What I'm saying that you said.

17 A. No, sir. No, that's why they beat me.

18 Q. So there are no such statements of yours?

19 A. I don't understa