1 Tuesday, 3 December 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

7 WITNESS: WITNESS MILAN BABIC [Resumed]

8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I should like the AV booth to play

11 the third excerpt from the tape that we haven't seen until the end

12 yesterday.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 [Private session ordered for public release,18 December 2002 (D18520-D18519)]

15 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session, Your Honours.

16 [Videotape played]

17 "WITNESS MILAN BABIC: In the first half of September 1991, we discussed

18 the need for officers, staff officers, in the Krajina. I asked for this

19 meeting -- in fact, before that, Boro Rasuo and Zoran Kalicanin found a

20 volunteer, a volunteer who would -- who volunteered to go to Krajina, and

21 that was Colonel Radoslav Maksic. And he said that he could find another

22 ten officers for the staff but that the request should be made via

23 Milosevic so that they could meet.

24 And the third point on which I'd like to talk --

25 "MR. HARDIN: Just a minute. So you said that Rasuo and Kalicanin

1 had found this Radoslav Maksic to come --

2 "THE INTERPRETER: Maksic, yes.

3 "MR. HARDIN: -- to come to the Krajina, and Maksic said that he

4 could find other officers for the staff. And was it Maksic that said that

5 you needed to take your request to Milosevic?

6 "WITNESS MILAN BABIC: Well, we were there -- I was taken to Maksic's

7 apartment, and it was there that we talked about it.

8 "MR. HARDIN: And he was present?

9 "WITNESS MILAN BABIC: And as I recollect -- as I recollect, we jointly

10 came to it. Well, I cannot recollect exactly, but we could say it was our

11 common conclusion or position. You see, Maksic was still on active duty

12 as an officer, and he couldn't leave without the approval. And he wanted

13 to have this approval to be able to leave.

14 "MR. HARDIN: So the concurrences that you would go see Milosevic

15 included the concurrences of Maksic, Rasuo, Kalicanin, and yourself?

16 "WITNESS MILAN BABIC: Well, as I -- my recollection goes, it was Maksic

17 who insisted that he must have the approval for leaving. That's the way

18 it [inaudible].

19 "MR. HARDIN: Yes. I understand that, that he needs the approval,

20 but you said that there was a concurrence that you need to go see

21 Milosevic.

22 "WITNESS MILAN BABIC: Well, you know, I can't remember exactly, but the

23 conclusion was that Milosevic would have to resolve this.

24 "MR. HARDIN: I understand that. I'm trying to understand who was

25 involved at that time, when you came to that conclusion.

1 "WITNESS MILAN BABIC: Well, they took me to Maksic --

2 "MR. HARDIN: I know, but who was there?

3 "WITNESS MILAN BABIC: Well, Rasuo, Kalicanin, Maksic, and myself.

4 "MR. HARDIN: That's what I asked you. Okay.

5 "WITNESS MILAN BABIC: Well, I already mentioned it, so I thought --

6 "MR. HARDIN: I know, but I want to confirm, because sometimes

7 it's not really clear. Okay. That's good."

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's enough. I think it's enough.

9 This is enough.

10 JUDGE MAY: We can go into open session.

11 [Open session]

12 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE MAY: We're in open session, Mr. Milosevic.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. All right. I will not be mentioning the witness's name. However,

16 what we see on this tape makes it indisputable that several of them had

17 met in a private apartment, all of them from the same area, and they

18 agreed among themselves whom they would need, in terms of experts, to

19 organise Territorial Defence. I therefore assume, Mr. MILAN BABIC, that it is

20 not in dispute.

21 A. Right.

22 Q. And you explained some time ago that since one of them was an

23 active-duty military man, you had agreed to ask for approval for him to

24 leave the active force of the army and help you out with the Territorial

25 Defence out there. Do you distinguish between finding volunteers who

1 would go out to help you and asking approval for them to leave the army in

2 order to help you out, on one hand, and appointing your own commanders,

3 either by me or by military authorities in Belgrade, on the other hand?

4 A. In this specific case, things went like this: They found a man

5 who was ready to go. He was an active-duty officer. The defence

6 administration of Belgrade, that's what he called his institution where he

7 was employed, and he said he needed your approval to go. As for the rest

8 of the developments, I described them as best I could.

9 Q. How could I possibly approve for someone to leave the defence

10 administration of Belgrade? You said even on tape that I would be

11 supposed to ask the competent military authorities for approval for this

12 man to be put at your disposal.

13 A. Approval for him to go, yes. Use your clout to make it possible

14 for him to go, from the position that you held.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the accused.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. You said yourself that I was supposed to ask for this man to be

18 released from his duties.

19 A. Yes. We wanted him to be released from the army to help us

20 organise the Territorial Defence of SAO Krajina.

21 Q. The idea seems one that pleases you, the idea of me approving

22 every single decision of yours. Can you tell me how you made the

23 selection and appointments of individuals in the Territorial Defence and

24 later the Serbian army of Krajina?

25 A. General Simovic said that it was you who decided that it should be

1 General Djujic.

2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters can't hear the accused.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. You mentioned he was a retired officer.

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. Rather than an active-duty officer. So I suppose that no one from

7 the military authorities, and even less civilian authorities, had to

8 approve for a retired person to go to his homeland and help out in the

9 organisation of Territorial Defence.

10 A. Colonel Maksic was supposed to come to this staff of Territorial

11 Defence, with ten men, and help organise it. However, only several men

12 came, with Colonel Kasim, and said they would make a phone call to

13 Belgrade, and said that you had decided it should be General Djujic.

14 Maksic also came with him, but he was not a commander.

15 Q. These associates or colleagues of yours, whatever you called them,

16 say that it was you who decided on your own that it should be a retired

17 general, Ilija Djujic, who would do this job. They say that what you're

18 saying is not correct.

19 A. What is correct is what Simovic said, and then followed Djujic's

20 appointment. And they said, the three officers who came, said they had

21 the decision of the federal secretary for National Defence.

22 Q. For them to be relieved from their duties in the JNA in order to

23 help with the technical organisation of the TO in Krajina?

24 A. They had approval to make up the staff of the TO of Krajina.

25 Q. You say that at that meeting you heard from one of them, the one

1 who was the leader among them, and I can't remember his name at the moment

2 - you know it - you say you heard him say that he can gather ten officers

3 and take them there in order to help you.

4 A. That's what Colonel Maksic said.

5 Q. You met with him in his own private apartment, and as fellow

6 countrymen, people from the same home town, you came to an agreement

7 without consulting anyone.

8 A. Colonel Maksic said that he came from Serbia proper.

9 Q. What did he say?

10 A. He said he was from Serbia.

11 Q. So what?

12 A. Our homeland is Krajina.

13 JUDGE MAY: Would both you of bear in mind the interpreters.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. So in this private arrangement of yours, if somebody volunteered

16 to help you, then you construe it as his having to bear some sort of

17 responsibility or guilt?

18 A. He was supposed to ask for a transfer.

19 Q. Isn't it logical for an active-duty officer to have to ask for

20 approval from his superiors if he wanted to go there as a volunteer? Did

21 he go there of his own will or did anyone force him?

22 A. Yes, that is logical, and that is why we asked approval from you.

23 Q. You didn't answer. Did he volunteer or did somebody order him to

24 go?

25 A. They said they had the decision from the federal secretary for

1 defence, Veljko Kadijevic.

2 Q. You're not answering again. Was he a volunteer? Is that how he

3 represented himself to you?

4 A. He offered himself as a volunteer, but they arrived with the

5 appropriate decision from the federal secretary for defence, Veljko

6 Kadijevic.

7 Q. So yes, they got approval to be released from active-duty service

8 and help you out with the TO. Do you know that half-truths are worse than

9 lies, Mr. Croatia-061?

10 JUDGE MAY: Not a question. Yes.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. I suppose it is not in dispute who commanded the Territorial

13 Defence of Krajina.

14 A. The TO of Krajina was commanded by the superior commands in the

15 JNA in combat actions.

16 Q. Isn't it true that the TO of Krajina was under the command of the

17 then president of Krajina?

18 A. That Krajina did not have a president. It had a Prime Minister,

19 who was supposed to be a civilian commander.

20 Q. That's what I'm talking about. Isn't that right?

21 A. That's right. That's how it should have been. But that's not the

22 way it was.

23 Q. That's what you're saying now.

24 A. That's what it was at the time.

25 Q. I believe we had cleared up that yesterday, especially in the

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1 light of the assertions I made yesterday regarding your own role.

2 JUDGE MAY: No point going back over evidence given earlier.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I won't, in that case,

4 address issues which will force us to go back into private session.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Please answer with precision: Apart from the MUP of Krajina that

7 were appointed by the bodies of Krajina and which consisted of members

8 from Krajina, the state security of Krajina, Krajina had its own Red

9 Berets as well that were known as the Red Berets of Krajina; is that true?

10 A. I hadn't heard of the Red Berets of Krajina. As for the MUP and

11 the DB in Krajina, I have spoken about that already. At the beginning of

12 August, the government took a decision to abolish the service of state

13 security within the territory of SAO Krajina. And as for MUP appointments

14 and operations, I've spoken about that already as well.

15 Q. Very well. To abolish the state security service sounds -- gives

16 one one impression when you put it that way and gives a completely

17 different impression if you tell the truth, and that is that you wanted to

18 make a distinction, to set up an organisation like those which exist in

19 many Western countries, to rename the state security into a security

20 agency. Wasn't that so?

21 A. The plan was to form a new agency, and it should have been under

22 the control of the government rather than the Ministry of the Interior and

23 the DB of Serbia.

24 Q. Very well. Leave the DB of Serbia. You keep making up its

25 responsibilities over there. Is it true that you did not abolish the

1 service but you wanted to rename it into an agency for the security of

2 Krajina, and you took a decision to that effect?

3 A. No. The service of state security in the territory of Krajina was

4 abolished, and subsequently an agency was to have been formed under the

5 control of the government, but this was not done because it was not

6 possible under the existing circumstances, and which I've already

7 testified about.

8 Q. You were rather contradictory in discussing these matters, because

9 you say that I controlled everything, that I had command over there. Then

10 why would a parallel structure be necessary when I was in control?

11 Please, is it true that you've made up completely this parallel structure

12 out of fear? Is that right or not, Mr. MILAN BABIC?

13 A. First of all, the government needed to have its own intelligence

14 agency under its control rather than under the control of the DB of

15 Serbia. Secondly, the parallel structure was as I have described it. At

16 the top of that structure was the DB of Serbia, and above the DB of

17 Serbia, you.

18 Q. But you were the person who took the decisions. You shaped life

19 in Krajina. You appointed the ministers, you appointed the heads of state

20 security, the Minister of Police, the Minister of Defence; the whole

21 organisation of life. What has parallel structure got to do with it?

22 A. I have been addressing these issues specifically. If I need to go

23 into them again, I can.

24 Q. Is it true that all those structures that I have listed - state

25 security, MUP, and the TO, the army of Krajina - they had a completely

1 separate command structure in relation to Serbia and the Federal Republic

2 of Yugoslavia?

3 A. The MUP in the Krajina was under the control of the DB of Serbia.

4 That is under your control. The army, the Serbian army in the Republic of

5 Srpska Krajina, was under your control. One of the ways I have already

6 described, one of the ways in which this was done. The Territorial

7 Defence of Krajina was controlled by the JNA, that is, by you. The DB in

8 Krajina was formed first within the SUP, the Ministry of the Interior, and

9 then it was abolished because you controlled it. However, it continued to

10 operate. The government did not set up its own separate service.

11 Q. Very well. Doesn't the following completely annul what you are

12 just saying, and doesn't it reveal your complete separation from what

13 you're saying? On the 20th of August, 1991, you were the creator of

14 establishing a unified system of Territorial Defence of Krajina.

15 JUDGE MAY: We'll go into private session.

16 [Private session ordered for public release,18 December 2002 (D18520-D18519)]

17 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session, Your Honours.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Very well. On the 20th of August, 1991, you held a government

20 meeting of SAO Krajina. You took the decision to establish a unified

21 system of Territorial Defence of Krajina, and you appointed as commanders

22 of the Territorial Defence in Kordun, Milo Dakic, and for the command of

23 the TO of Banija, Dusan Jovic. Are those your decisions? Is this true

24 what I'm saying?

25 A. The decisions on appointments of Jovic and Dakic I think were

1 taken in July 1991.

2 Q. And who took those decisions? You are using the passive tense.

3 Who took those decisions?

4 A. I did, in my capacity of Prime Minister, who also acted as Defence

5 Minister as that position was not filled.

6 Q. Of course you are confirming that because there are documents to

7 prove that. Did I perhaps tell you to appoint those people? Did I

8 perhaps tell you to appoint yourself as commander of Territorial Defence?

9 Did I tell you to take a decision? And all those decisions that you took?

10 A. Jovic was appointed in order to form a legal system of Territorial

11 Defence.

12 Q. Why don't you answer my question?

13 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness finish.

14 Now, what the accused has put to you is to challenge that he told

15 you to appoint a commander of Territorial Defence, to take a decision.

16 Now, you can answer that in your own time and in your own way.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was asked a specific

18 question about specific people at a specific time, and I'm going to answer

19 that in specific terms. At the end of July, or the month of August, there

20 were quite a number of appointments, based on the regulations in force in

21 SAO Krajina, with the aim of establishing a unified system of Territorial

22 Defence of SAO Krajina which would be under the control of the government

23 of SAO Krajina.

24 At the end of September, the Main Staff of the Territorial Defence

25 of SAO Krajina was established and the commanders were appointed in the

1 way I have already described. There was Maksic, Djujic, and the decision

2 of the federal secretary for National Defence that I referred to. This

3 was the period of September and the beginning of October. It was in this

4 way that the formation of the unified Territorial Defence was completed,

5 but it was not placed under the command of the bodies of SAO Krajina or

6 the government but under the competent commands of the JNA that existed

7 within the territory of SAO Krajina.

8 JUDGE MAY: And the point that the accused makes, essentially, is

9 that he had no part in those decisions; that was your decision and your

10 decision alone, and he was independent of it. Now, what is your answer to

11 that?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My exclusive decision was the

13 appointment of Jovic and Dakic. As for the appointment of the Main Staff

14 of the TO of SAO Krajina, the appointment of officers Vujaklija, Officer

15 Vujaklija, but from the appointment of the commander and the Main Staff of

16 the Territorial Defence of SAO Krajina, he had a decisive role in that

17 respect. He decided about that.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. I don't understand that. Who decided about appointments? Did you

20 proclaim yourself commander of the TO Krajina?

21 A. Pursuant to the law on National Defence, which was implemented on

22 the 1st of August, 1991, the Prime Minister was ex officio the commander

23 of the Territorial Defence of Krajina.

24 Q. So you personally were commander of the Territorial Defence of

25 Krajina. Did I appoint you to that position?

1 A. You, together with General Simovic, Veljko Kadijevic and Adzic,

2 appointed the Main Staff of the TO and the commander Djujic, the chief of

3 staff, Colonel Kasum, the chief of communications, Vuletic. That was your

4 decision. I subsequently and procedurally signed that decision as far as

5 General Djujic is concerned. So he had two appointments. He had a

6 decision of the federal Secretary of National Defence and a confirmation

7 of that decision of the Prime Minister of Krajina, that is, myself. So he

8 had two appointments. But the real one came from you, and the formal one

9 from me.

10 Q. Very well. As I heard for the first time not today but these past

11 few days, the name of this General Djujic, and since you confirm that he

12 was a retired general, and these people of yours from Krajina say that you

13 arbitrarily appointed him to that position and that you treated him rather

14 badly --

15 JUDGE MAY: I don't think we're going to get much further than

16 this. We've been around this point quite a bit. The witness has given

17 his explanation. Yes.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, for the references, the

19 decisions regarding Milan Dakic and Dusan Jovic, they were tab 117 and 118

20 of the Exhibit 352, and the decision in relation to Djujic, that's tab 69

21 of that same exhibit.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. So we have the documents which show that you proclaimed yourself

24 commander of the Territorial Defence --

25 JUDGE MAY: No, Mr. Milosevic.

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1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. -- and not only do we have the document --

3 JUDGE MAY: The witness has dealt with this. He's explained the

4 situation. Now, there's a conflict in evidence, no doubt, or there will

5 be or may be. We hear what you say and the fact that you challenge it but

6 he's given his explanation and he can't do any more, and it's a waste of

7 time going over it again.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that's the whole point: What

9 this witness of yours is claiming is in complete contradiction with the

10 documents in your possession.

11 JUDGE MAY: Look, he's not our witness. He's a Prosecution

12 witness. Don't forget it. Secondly, you've made the point over and over

13 again. We have it. We'll have to consider his evidence and the

14 documents. Now, let's move on.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's the problem. I would like

16 here to establish that what he is claiming is in complete contradiction

17 with the documents that we have.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. And your entire explanation is that you are some sort of a cloned

20 person, and as such you were carrying out orders from Belgrade. Is that

21 so? Is that your explanation?

22 A. I don't understand the question.

23 Q. Is that your explanation, that you actually weren't doing

24 anything; you were just carrying out orders from Belgrade?

25 A. In specific cases, I'm giving a specific answer. What specific

1 matters are you referring to?

2 Q. I'm referring to everything. According to everything that is

3 known in the public, you constituted the greatest opposition to the

4 policies of Belgrade. Now you're claiming that you were working on the

5 basis of instructions from Belgrade. How can you explain such a

6 contradiction?

7 A. I'm giving concrete answers to concrete questions.

8 Q. Well, for instance, I've been talking about the Territorial

9 Defence now and about your decisions that you claim were mine. I never

10 even heard of that what's-his-name, Dakic, or Jovic, or anyone else, any

11 of the other ones. How could I have appointed them?

12 A. I didn't say that you appointed Dakic and Jovic. I said that you

13 appointed the Main Staff of SAO Krajina.

14 Q. Who did I appoint to the Main Staff of the TO of Krajina?

15 JUDGE MAY: We're going back over this point again. The witness

16 has given his evidence about it. Perhaps -- no. We cannot waste time

17 going over the same point over and over again. Now, we have it. We have

18 the documentation. We have the evidence. We see the point you make.

19 But perhaps the witness could answer this for us: What the

20 accused is suggesting is that you were in fact an opponent of Belgrade -

21 this is the way he puts it - and he says what you appear to be saying in

22 your evidence is that you were taking orders from them. Now, it doesn't

23 matter about how that's put, but that's the general point that he's

24 making. And what he's saying is that there is a contradiction in this.

25 Now, would you describe your position as taking orders from Belgrade? How

1 would you describe your relationship to Belgrade and to the accused in

2 particular?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I could summarise that in the

4 briefest possible manner for the whole period that the question relates to

5 would be that I was manipulated by Belgrade. Maybe that would be closest

6 to the truth. But in specific cases, I responded with regard to political

7 decisions, and I have described how I took those decisions under the

8 influence of Belgrade and, personally, Slobodan Milosevic. Regarding the

9 self-determination of the Serbs in Krajina to remain in Yugoslavia, that

10 was under his influence. It was under the influence of his explanation

11 that this was a just aim, a legal one, following his conviction that this

12 decision would be protected by the Yugoslav People's Army.

13 As for the formation of the Territorial Defence, I had the

14 initiative that an independent Territorial Defence be formed in Krajina

15 which would be under the command of the government or the authorities of

16 SAO Krajina. However, that decision could not be implemented without the

17 support and approval of Belgrade, or rather, Slobodan Milosevic - that is

18 what I have already said - because the JNA was under his control, the

19 officers, the logistics, and everything else. So support and assistance

20 was needed to realise this, and he extended that aid by assisting and

21 controlling that institution.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. How? How? How did I establish my control?

24 A. You allowed officers to go there, to be reassigned to the TO of

25 SAO Krajina, and you subordinated them to the appropriate commands of the

1 JNA, that is, to yourself.

2 Q. Those were the officers which you yourself found privately as

3 volunteers and asked that they be permitted to go to Krajina.

4 A. That was only one man, and he never came following an agreement

5 because you had determined otherwise, and I had no choice in the matter,

6 either to have a Territorial Defence staff or for that not to exist. And

7 under the given circumstances, I thought it was better to have whatever

8 kind of staff was available rather than none at all.

9 Q. Well, a group came that you engaged yourself, and they came

10 according to your specifications.

11 A. No. Just one man came, and that man did not become the commander,

12 as we had agreed upon.

13 Q. Well, you explained that that one man told you that he would bring

14 in another ten men, and because he didn't bring the ten men, that, I

15 assume, is a matter between you and him.

16 A. But you didn't permit him to become the commander. General

17 Simovic said, and I asked him why he wasn't appointed a commander, he said

18 that he was an alcoholic and that you yourself had appointed General

19 Djujic.

20 Q. Simovic could not have told you that, that he was an alcoholic. I

21 don't know that. Perhaps Simovic might have known something along those

22 lines, whether somebody in the army was an alcoholic or not. But that I

23 had appointed him, Simovic could not have told you any nonsense of that

24 kind.

25 A. Simovic said, "We have decided, we have determined, that it be

1 General Djujic," and I asked why not Maksic, and he said, "Because he's an

2 alcoholic." And ten of them didn't turn up, just three of them, and

3 Maksic never became the commander, which means that you said that that man

4 would be a fourth man.

5 Q. How, then, do you decide that I made the decision, that I

6 appointed these men?

7 A. Well, I went to ask you for your permission. I then called you up

8 by telephone to ask whether the officers would be arriving. You said they

9 would be arriving the next day. They didn't come the next day. They came

10 five or six days later.

11 Q. Well, I can only assume. I can't quite remember details of that

12 kind, minor things, but I assume that you wanted the army to have those

13 people released as volunteers and sent to you.

14 A. We asked that you should allow them to come, to help them --

15 Q. To help them to come, you mean?

16 A. Well, you had the power of decision-making. You were able to

17 decide and give orders or influence General Kadijevic or Adzic, whoever,

18 who were those people's superiors, to allow them to come, and that was the

19 procedure. That's why we went to see you.

20 Q. As you know, I was not in a position to --

21 JUDGE MAY: One at a time.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. As you know, I was not able to order anything to either Kadijevic

24 or Adzic. Now, on what grounds do you claim that I ordered --

25 JUDGE MAY: No. I think we have been through this enough. I have

1 allowed you to go on asking more questions. The witness has told us his

2 account. Now, this argument is not assisting. Move on to a new topic.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Is it true that the results of your arbitrariness and self-will

5 was that in Knin - and in Knin you convened all the commanders who were in

6 the area of the western reaches of Krajina, and among them was, for

7 example, General Ratko Mladic, he was one of them - and that you called a

8 meeting and asked them, demanded, with all the authority that a Prime

9 Minister had, that the northern Dalmatian Corps should be called the

10 Dinarski Corps, as it was known in World War II, the Chetnik Corps, and

11 that they should change their insignia and place the Chetnik insignia on

12 their caps and that the first to stand up to this and oppose it was

13 General Ratko Mladic himself, and said that while he was the commander --

14 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, this is no question. Now, ask a

15 question. It's no good making assertions.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Is it true that precisely as the result of your self-will, that

18 you convened the meeting and called for the changes that I have specified?

19 A. No, that is not correct. It's not true.

20 Q. So all this is a lie, is it? Fine.

21 A. What you said is not correct. It is not correct that there were

22 any decisions made as regards insignia and emblems, or what you were

23 saying.

24 Q. All right. All right. I'm very satisfied with your answer when

25 you said that what I was saying was not true, was not correct. I have

1 enough witnesses to prove that you were not telling the truth.

2 Now, tell me this: As you were talking about the fact that these

3 people from what you call the parallel structures and then you're not able

4 to mention more than three names, having said that, did they sow fear

5 among the people, did they threaten anybody, those people that had arrived

6 into the area?

7 A. Who do you mean? Who are you referring to?

8 Q. Well, you mentioned Stanisic, Frenki, Simatovic, and you even said

9 that there was a man from my own security service, which is also a lie.

10 But the people who were there, you mentioned three of them, did they

11 threaten anybody?

12 A. Franko Simatovic was at the head of DB operations and the police

13 around Lovrinac. He made an armoured -- constructed an armoured train

14 which went into operation --

15 Q. Mr. MILAN BABIC, that's not what I'm asking. I'm not asking you about

16 that. You say that your life had been threatened, your life was in

17 jeopardy, and that they issued orders over there. How shall I put it?

18 Did they threaten anybody? Did anybody threaten anybody, and if so, when

19 and how and where? You said some people engaged in the liquidation of

20 persons and other conjured-up things. Now, did these people threaten

21 anybody?

22 A. I described the case of when I was threatened, and that prompted

23 me to call you up the next morning over the phone to ask you to withdraw

24 Frenki in Krajina.

25 Q. And when were you threatened? When did they threaten you?

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1 A. This was somewhere around the 8th or 9th of August, 1991, when

2 Captain Dragan relinquished his command over his unit to Frenki, he handed

3 it over to Frenki. After that, 15 or 20 minutes later, some people

4 followed me and went to Golubic, followed me to Golubic, which was the

5 leader of the TO detachment. They blocked the entrance. They followed me

6 and they said who was to be killed. I escaped, and that night I was

7 followed again and in the morning I phoned you up.

8 Q. So what you're saying is that they had come to kill you.

9 A. They -- these soldiers had received orders that somebody should be

10 killed and they started shouting who was to be killed and they followed

11 me. After Vidovdan, St. Vitus Day in 1992, Goran Opacic, the head of that

12 special police unit, or band, or group of bandits as existed in Benkovac

13 in the house of Vlajko Lezajic, he said, "I'm going to kill you now,

14 Bishop."

15 Q. What have I got to do with that? Who is this Goran Opacic?

16 A. Goran Opacic was a policeman under the command of Martic, the DB,

17 the state security, and your own command.

18 Q. Who was Martic? Was Martic the head of the Krajina police? Was

19 he the Minister of Internal Affairs of Krajina?

20 A. Martic was the Minister of the Interior --

21 Q. And is Martic himself from Krajina?

22 A. Martic is from Knin.

23 Q. What about this man Opacic? Is he from Krajina as well?

24 A. He's from Benkovac.

25 Q. All right, well, is that Krajina? Is Benkovac in Krajina?

1 A. It used to be.

2 Q. Well, this third man, the one you mentioned, Lezajic, is he from

3 Krajina too?

4 A. He's from Benkovac.

5 Q. Yes, that's right. So what have I got to do with your quarrels

6 with Martic, Lezajic, Opacic, and all the rest and the threats you made to

7 each other, or the swearing that went on between you? What's that got to

8 do with me or Serbia?

9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer, and

10 could the speakers be asked to slow down, please.

11 JUDGE MAY: I'm stopping you both. One answer was lost, and

12 there's a request from the interpreters for both of you to slow down, and

13 I repeat that. There's no point giving evidence or asking questions if it

14 can't be interpreted. So would you bear it in mind, please.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Fine. I don't know what

16 wasn't interpreted because I wasn't following the transcript. Otherwise,

17 you have very good interpreters, and I do believe that they have

18 interpreted the substance of what was said.

19 But let's move on back into open session now, because it's quite

20 nonsensical to go into these fabrications and nebulous ideas in a private

21 session; who quarreled with whom, et cetera, et cetera, who said something

22 to somebody else in somebody else's house.

23 [Open session]

24 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. You know that the citizens from the diaspora collected money

2 during all those war years and they assisted the Serbs in Krajina. I'm

3 sure you're aware of that. I have here just one example of that. It

4 dates to the end of 1994, when a sum of money had been collected, and you

5 can take a look at this list. These are people who live in America for

6 the most part, or rather, American citizens. Some people gave 20 dollars,

7 others gave 2.000 dollars, one person gave 500 dollars, another might have

8 given a thousand dollars. But anyway, a sum was collected and the total

9 was 169.417 dollars in that one assistance campaign and one sum that was

10 raised for you. 169.417 US dollars was the sum that was collected and

11 sent to you. Do you remember that? That was in 1994. You can take a

12 look at this list of donors, and you'll be able to see. Some people gave

13 50, others gave 4.000, some gave 20, some gave 200. But there were many

14 of them. They're not in order, alphabetical order or numerical order.

15 There are four and a half pages of names. Do you remember that?

16 A. I remember that the Serbs from the diaspora did send assistance in

17 money to Krajina, and this began as early on as 1990. First of all, this

18 collection was made for Serb radio television in Knin, then there were

19 other collection drives, and there was even some communication equipment

20 that was sent into the region, but the DB of Serbia seized it at the

21 airport in Belgrade --

22 Q. I'm not asking you -- please, I'm not asking you about any

23 communication devices that were dispatched. Now, this is your specialty;

24 you're not answering the questions that I'm asking you, and we're seeing

25 through that, Mr. MILAN BABIC. What I'm asking you is this, and I want a yes or

1 no answer: The representatives of these citizens who collected these

2 169.000 dollars, 169,417 US dollars was the sum that had been collected,

3 and these citizens claimed that they personally handed over that sum of

4 money to you, that the money was never paid into either the budget of the

5 municipality of the SAO of Krajina or any other institution, for that

6 matter.

7 A. I never received the 169.000 dollars personally. It was never

8 handed over to me.

9 Q. And do you know that it was precisely because they had handed the

10 money over to you personally that proceedings were brought against you;

11 however, these court proceedings were closed to the public because of the

12 post and position you held? Do you know about these legal proceedings

13 that were taken because of the appropriation of these 169.417 US dollars?

14 A. No, I do not.

15 Q. Does the name Vladimir Velebit, an inspector, mean anything to

16 you, who headed those legal proceedings and the investigation undertaken

17 because of the fact that you had appropriated this money?

18 A. I do not.

19 Q. And do you know that the proceedings led by this inspector named

20 Vladimir Velebit, who conducted the embezzlement procedures was killed in

21 Krajina in a way that was never found out how?

22 A. No, I do not.

23 Q. Fine. Great. As we're on the subject of finances, and you're

24 talking off the bat about finances, quite incorrectly, do you happen to

25 know the following: What were the contributions, or rather, donations,

1 that were made by the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to the budget of the

2 Republic of the Serbian Krajina? Quite officially, official figures,

3 public figures, and quite legally and lawfully.

4 A. I can't remember the exact figure, but there are facts and figures

5 about that question.

6 Q. Well, you have made statements here and observations as to some

7 shady dealings. Do you know, for example, that with the budget of Krajina

8 for 1992, the year 1992, all the social welfare and protection, health

9 protection, education grants, et cetera, and allowances, amounted to

10 1.666.000 Krajina dinars, or 5 per cent of the overall total budget of the

11 Republic of the RSK, for instance? And at the same time --

12 JUDGE MAY: One thing at a time. Let the witness deal with this

13 question.

14 Can you assist as to that or not?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The largest portion of the budget

16 for Krajina was allocated for military purposes.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. You're once again answering a question that I never asked you.

19 I'm not asking you that.

20 A. Well, you enumerated all those facts.

21 Q. You're answering a question I didn't ask you about. I know you

22 have received your instructions and you are following the lesson you have

23 learnt --

24 JUDGE MAY: Now, Mr. Milosevic, that's a totally improper comment,

25 and you know it. It cuts no ice at all for you to make these sort of

1 comments. Now, the question that was asked was whether --

2 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

3 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. The question that was asked was the 5

4 per cent for those amounts. Can you help? If you can't help, just say

5 so. You've told us that most went on military expenditure.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The figures I know date to 1995, and

7 the Krajina had about 30.000 pensioners, that it had several thousand

8 health workers. You mentioned something about the health care system.

9 That means that these were the recipients of those funds for those

10 purposes, allocated to those purposes. Now, what the exact sum was, I

11 can't say, I can't express it in figures.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Croatia MILAN BABIC, had have you read the epic Gorski Vijenac, The

14 Mountain Wreath?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Well, do you recall the verse by Njegos, the author, which says

17 that fear tarnishes one's face, the face of a man?

18 A. Well, I know many portions and verses from The Mountain Wreath by

19 heart.

20 THE INTERPRETER: That a man's honour is tarnished, interpreter's

21 correction.

22 JUDGE MAY: We've had enough of the literary excursion. Let us

23 move on.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. There were not 30.000 pensioners in Krajina, Mr. MILAN BABIC. You

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1 ignore that because you did not deal in public affairs. You rather

2 paraded in uniforms and took credit that didn't belong to you. There were

3 50.000 pensioners in Krajina. And in your budget, you had 5 per cent of

4 funds for all those needs. And Yugoslavia, for instance, in 1993, gave

5 14.8 per cent - that is, almost 15 per cent - of your budget for those

6 purposes: Health care, education, veterans, and the disabled. We have

7 this data.

8 A. Which year did you say?

9 Q. 1993. Veterans, health care, and other allowances,

10 154.249.841.991 dinars, which is 14.8 per cent of the total budget of

11 Krajina for 1993. You even --

12 A. I was not in the government then. If you ask me about 1994,

13 1995 --

14 Q. You have no clue. These --

15 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, it is not fair to put a string of

16 figures to a witness and then claim he has no clue, and you know it. Now,

17 if you want to cross-examine, you must do so fairly and properly, or it

18 will be stopped. Now, have you got some figures to put in front of him?

19 Try and do it fairly so he has the chance to answer, instead of just

20 reeling them off. Have you got some figures that you can put in front of

21 him to substantiate what you're saying?

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. May. I will not

23 squander my time quoting all the figures, but in view of his job, or jobs,

24 he should be aware of these figures, at least approximately.

25 JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues]... now, let's move

1 on. You can either cross-examine him properly by putting the documents in

2 front of him and asking him about them - it's not a memory test - or we'll

3 go on to something else.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Let me ask you, then, since he doesn't have a memory, he says he

6 has a visual one, and this is easy to remember visually if you look at

7 figures, but he doesn't know that, of course. Do you know how much aid,

8 how many thousands of barges with oil, sugar, staple foods, medicines, and

9 other things, trailers, came to Krajina from Serbia over all these years?

10 A. Krajina could not have survived without Serbia's help. That's

11 obvious.

12 Q. How many thousands of trailers arrived to Krajina from Serbia over

13 those years?

14 A. I don't know how many thousands. All I know is that we depended

15 on Serbia.

16 Q. Why are you smirking here, then, and answering questions of the

17 lady from the opposite side related to the intercept, the intercepted

18 conversation between Karadzic and Kertes about flour, oil, blankets? Why

19 do you laugh and why do you say that those were code-names for weapons and

20 ammunition?

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

22 A. Well, I read it as a very mildly coded conversation, very mildly.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. All right, then. What terms were then used for blankets, flour,

25 oil, sugar, medicines, and all the other things that we sent as aid to

1 you? If "flour" was used as a term for ammunition, what term was used to

2 denote flour proper? Let me learn something from you if I can.

3 A. Well, flour was called flour. What else was mentioned in that

4 intercept? Batteries, HDZ will be receiving batteries. It is quite clear

5 that it is a mildly coded conversation for weapons.

6 Q. Well, "flour" means sometimes flour, sometimes it means weapons.

7 A. Well, I never heard about Kertes sending flour to the HDZ.

8 Q. There is no mention of flour transports to the HDZ in that

9 intercept.

10 A. There are references to lights out, to batteries, to other things.

11 Q. In Yugoslavia, Vojvodina is the bread basket of the country and

12 probably the greatest bread basket in the Balkans, and they even talk

13 about the sending of supplies which are soon going to expire because they

14 would be getting new ones, and most of the stuff was sent from the

15 so-called food reserves.

16 A. Well, because Kertes was the head of that -- I'm not aware of

17 Kertes being involved in that.

18 Q. I was never head of the commodity reserves directorate.

19 A. I didn't say that you were.

20 Q. Well, according to you, I was head of everything in Yugoslavia,

21 and if anybody ran over a pedestrian in the street, it's probably my

22 fault.

23 A. I know that you were Kertes's boss.

24 Q. I was Kertes's boss, but I was not your boss. And if I had been

25 your boss, you would not have done what you did. And is it correct that

1 with this assertion of Croatia in 1990 and 1991, Croatia also interrupted

2 all payments and payment transactions towards the area populated by Serbs

3 and that there it was practically impossible to make a payment to the

4 screw factory which you mentioned and for which you came to me to ask for

5 assistance? They were unable to operate; is that correct?

6 A. You have to make one distinction here. One thing here is that the

7 Croatian government, in spring 1991, blocked and isolated from the payment

8 system these areas, and in 1991, the giro accounts of certain factories

9 were blocked, were frozen. For instance, the Tvik factory had its account

10 frozen because of a 40-million debt. Certain accounts were frozen by the

11 Croatian government because of debts, and also in the case of some

12 enterprises, such as Splitvica, because they were politically in bad

13 order. And payment transactions completely ceased in May 1991, in

14 Krajina, and Krajina was no longer able to be involved in the payment

15 system through the Croatian SDK.

16 Q. Is it clear to you that the Republic of Serbian Krajina, facing

17 this problem, embarked upon creating its own payment system in order to be

18 able to function as an economic entity? Is that correct?

19 A. Yes. First we started with the payments system, whereas the

20 banking system of Krajina remained within the economic territory of your

21 Yugoslavia, in order to survive economically. That's right.

22 Q. Well, you are too susceptible to the inertia of answering in the

23 negative to every question of mine, even those questions which seem

24 favourable to you. Do you know that Yugoslavia had its own system of

25 payments transactions?

1 A. As of 1992, of course. The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia did

2 have its own payment system.

3 Q. Payments transactions were effected through the social accountancy

4 service, the SDK, although in other countries this is done through banks,

5 and it was even our intention to change the system and replace the SDK by

6 banks.

7 A. I heard from experts that according to plans for the reform of the

8 SDK, the SDK was supposed to be brought under the umbrella of the National

9 Bank of Yugoslavia. Several years were necessary for this plan to be

10 effected. The plan was to abolish the service for payment transactions

11 within the National Bank of Yugoslavia and hand it over to specialised

12 services. I don't know what was the situation at the time we are talking

13 about and at what stage the implementation of the plan was.

14 Q. You should refrain from incorrect assumptions. Is it true that

15 for the purposes of enabling payments to be made to the Krajina, special

16 accounts were opened in the SDK, in the Republic of Krajina?

17 A. After the 16th of May, 1991, the social accountancy service of the

18 SAO Krajina was established, and all participants in the payment system

19 opened their accounts with that service. In fact, they had accounts

20 before, but they were not integrated. That service was integrated with

21 the SDK of Serbia through Belgrade.

22 Q. Here we come back to that claim of yours, probably because you

23 don't understand this completely. But all accounts were run through the

24 SDK of Krajina, whereas the processing of payment orders was done in

25 Yugoslavia by the service with which a contract on the extension of

1 services was signed for that purpose, because you were not able to tackle

2 the technical aspect of the job. And this was done by branch offices in

3 Sombor, Zemun, and Belgrade.

4 A. I know about that. This was done by branch office 6 in Belgrade,

5 and I know that before that, enterprises from Krajina opened duplicate

6 accounts in the branch office in Belgrade. How that technically operated,

7 who processed payment orders, who signed them, is a matter of technique

8 and method. I don't know that.

9 Q. Do you know, for instance, that the Republic of Serbian Krajina

10 set up its own payments operation service and opened branch offices in

11 Knin, Glina, Petrinja, Vukovar, Beli Manastir? Do you know about that?

12 A. Of course I know. We were actively working on setting up that

13 system.

14 Q. Do you know that your SDK had a contract with SDK Novi Belgrade

15 and Sombor for the processing of those payments orders?

16 A. That was a way of integrating the system, because the system

17 itself would mean nothing if it had not been integrated with the system of

18 Yugoslavia. It would have been just an isolated SDK system of Krajina,

19 and it would have been stifled.

20 Q. Do you know that within Krajina such a system can operate, and

21 outside the SAO Krajina, it can operate through any payments institution

22 or bank, be it in Belgrade, New York, Geneva, or Milan? It doesn't

23 matter. Payments transactions are effected with entities with whom you

24 have deals.

25 A. The financial authorities in Yugoslavia resolved this in the way

1 which was favourable to Krajina, bypassing Croatia. It was done through

2 the FRY SDK system. That's the reason why the SDK of Krajina was

3 integrated with the payment system of Yugoslavia.

4 Q. I just explained in which way it was integrated, but let's not

5 waste time.

6 Is it true that on the 14th of July, 1992, the National Bank of

7 Krajina was set up, that the so-called Krajina dinar was introduced, that

8 the banking system was built up and completely equipped to function, both

9 the payment system and the banking system of Krajina?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. And the payment system, with the banking system of Krajina,

12 cooperated with its counterparts in Yugoslavia, exclusively on the basis

13 of the relevant regulations.

14 A. It functioned as a component part of the unified system of

15 Yugoslavia.

16 Q. I just explained to you that it is not the way you are describing

17 it. But since you seem to have the need to continue claiming the

18 opposite --

19 A. We needed --

20 JUDGE MAY: He's entitled -- [Previous translation continues]...

21 You may not like it, but he's entitled to give it. Your comment is of no

22 assistance. Now, anything else you want to ask him?

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You are right, Mr. May; the witness

24 has the right not to know something. But he doesn't have the right to

25 lie.

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1 JUDGE MAY: That's a matter for us to determine, between what you

2 assert and the evidence he gives.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Do you know that until the budget of SAO Krajina was decided in

5 1992, the needs of municipalities were being met, among other things, from

6 the production and processing of oil?

7 A. The production of oil was located in the Mirkovci municipality.

8 Other municipalities did not have this amenity for filling their budgets.

9 Q. Do you know that as far as this production is concerned, it did

10 not belong to the Mirkovci municipality; it belonged to the whole of

11 Krajina?

12 A. That's true. You were talking about municipalities, though.

13 Q. I had two things in mind: One were municipal budgets, and another

14 thing was the financing of the Krajina budget from its own revenues,

15 including revenues from oil production. Are you aware of that?

16 A. The budget was filled from turnover tax on sales of oil and oil

17 derivatives.

18 Q. Since you presented a number of false pieces of information here,

19 including that Stanisic, Kertes, and others appropriated funds from oil

20 revenues, I have a disclaimer from Mikelic, who claims exactly the

21 opposite. He says as follows:

22 "It never happened, in all the time that I was Prime Minister of

23 the Republic of Serbian Krajina, that I, with Jovica Stanisic and Mihalj

24 Kertes, ever had a conversation regarding the sale of oil and oil

25 derivatives in Mirkovci, let alone having a joint venture with them for

1 sale of oil to the refinery in Pancevo. If the witness had known about

2 such things, such serious offences, how is it possible that he did not

3 present them at the Assembly of Serbian Krajina --"

4 JUDGE MAY: We don't want the comments of your various

5 correspondents. What you can put to the witness is that he is not right

6 when he asserts there was this conversation about oil derivatives.

7 Now, you've heard that, Witness MILAN BABIC. It's suggested that that

8 conversation never took place, there was no joint venture. What is your

9 answer to that?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I had several reports

11 regarding the distribution of oil derivatives, and when I spoke about

12 that, I was referring to the situation in 1994 and 1995. I heard, before

13 that, that control over oil sources was in the hands of Mihalj Kertes,

14 that he had a unit of his over there. I first heard that in Ilok

15 Slavonia, he had a unit called Red Berets --

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Who had a unit? Excuse me. I didn't hear it.

18 JUDGE MAY: Let him finish.

19 A. And that his men also controlled Djeletovci. That is a region

20 where oil was being pumped near Mirkovci. Secondly, after the

21 introduction of sanctions, the imposition of sanctions, after they were

22 published and, to be more precise, the blockade, actually, towards

23 Republika Srpska, and similarly also towards the Republic of Srpska

24 Krajina, the trade in oil derivatives, or rather, the transit of oil

25 derivatives, was under the control of international observers. To avoid

1 the control of international observers, the following was done, to bypass

2 their control. I know very well that several times at government sessions

3 chaired by Mikelic there was a discussion on the number of cisterns and

4 so-called "arnjevi," which was an expression used to camouflage the tanks

5 so that they wouldn't be spotted by planes overflying the territory of

6 Bosnia and Herzegovina and to not be noticed by the observers at border

7 crossings. And I had two reports. One report came from people in

8 Slavonia, that oil passed partially through the woods north of Sremska

9 Raca, upstream, along the Sava River, and the other route was these

10 camouflaged oil trucks used country roads to reach the bridge connecting

11 the two Racas on the Sava River, and in that way they bypassed

12 international control.

13 Thirdly, I think this was a conversation sometime in April 1995,

14 in the villa in Boticevo Street, attended by several participants, among

15 them President Milosevic, Sokolovic, Stanisic, Badza, Mikelic, and there

16 was a discussion there about oil and this problem. At that point in time,

17 I didn't quite understand the reasons why this was a problem. I realised

18 it was a problem when Mikelic turned up late.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the answer be shorter.

20 JUDGE MAY: Let him finish.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mikelic was late to the meeting, and

22 in fear sort of, he asked, "What happened, what happened?" as if he was

23 afraid. I didn't realise anything special had happened. There was a

24 discussion about football. I was a fan of Partizan and he of Zvezda.

25 JUDGE MAY: If you can finish that.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That meeting did take place, Your

2 Honour, in April 1995.

3 Also, in May 1995, regarding the same subject, Stanisic and

4 Karadzic mentioned Boro Mikelic in Bijeljina. I think I've already

5 testified about that, and if necessary, I can repeat what I said.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. I don't understand anything, anything of what you've just said.

8 Here is what he says: The production -- Is this true, please? That is

9 my question to you. He says that the production of crude oil was in

10 Djeletovci, in Mirkovci municipality, and processing was done in the oil

11 refinery in Pancevo. After processing in Pancevo, the distribution of oil

12 derivatives was carried out through the company Nik Mirkovci and then the

13 derivatives were directed towards public enterprises: Nik Mirkovci, Nik

14 Vukovar, Nik Dvor na Uni, and Nik Knin. So four public companies.

15 Through these branch companies, the oil derivatives --

16 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, let the witness answer you. You've put

17 a series of assertions about where the processing was done and the like of

18 it.

19 Now, Witness, it's put to you, first of all, the processing was

20 done in Pancevo. Do you agree with that?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right. It was pumped in

22 Djeletovci, in two ways, using the normal technology. The processing was

23 in Pancevo.

24 JUDGE MAY: It's suggested the distribution was carried out

25 through various -- through a company Nik Mirkovci, and directed towards

1 various public enterprises. Is that right?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the territory of Krajina, yes.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. So for the needs of agriculture, industry, the army of the

6 Republic of Srpska Krajina, and for sale at petrol stations in Krajina; is

7 that right? Sale to the public.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Is it true that the -- a certain percentage of oil derivatives,

10 every tonne produced, processed, and then returned to Krajina, that these

11 accounts were established at every government session regarding the needs

12 that have just been listed, that a balance was made every month of oil

13 derivatives at government sessions of Krajina?

14 A. For the territory of Krajina, yes. From regular production. I

15 wanted to say that there was also so-called extraordinary production.

16 Q. I am really unable to fathom what you have just said, because it

17 follows from this that Mikelic, who was Prime Minister at the time you are

18 talking about, he says that the balances were made at government sessions

19 monthly, that oil was distributed throughout Krajina for all these needs -

20 you confirmed that - and now you are saying that there was some

21 extraordinary production. What are you talking about?

22 A. I can't explain it technologically, but these people from Mirkovci

23 explained to me that regular technological procedures implies pumping oil,

24 injecting water, to maintain the stability of the soil. But there was

25 another way of faster pumping without injecting water, something like

1 that. I can't be very specific about this. So in this way, there were

2 additional quantities of oil.

3 What I testified about was the problem between determining the

4 quotas for Krajina and Republika Srpska, namely, the method in which

5 certain debts were balanced out between Mikelic and Karadzic was the

6 disappearance of oil tankers passing through the Republic of -- Republika

7 Srpska, and this was a discussion that we had at government meetings.

8 Certain quantities of oil derivatives designated for Srpska Krajina did

9 not arrive in Krajina, and Mikelic explained this, that Karadzic was

10 taking them from him as they passed through the territory of Republika

11 Srpska. So this was one of the incidents and disagreements with Karadzic

12 that I am aware of.

13 Q. What has that got to do with Serbia, whether Mikelic and Karadzic

14 had a dispute over a particular oil tank? And what has Karadzic got to do

15 if an oil tank disappeared in Republika Srpska? Are you saying that

16 Karadzic stole an oil tank?

17 A. This was a dispute between Stanisic and Mikelic, and this was a

18 dispute that was discussed at your offices.

19 Q. You really believe that the state security of Serbia would address

20 a dispute between Mikelic and Karadzic regarding an oil cistern?

21 JUDGE MAY: One moment. This will be the last answer and then

22 we'll adjourn.

23 Would you deal with that, please.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry, what was the -- our last

25 question?

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1 JUDGE MAY: You were asked about your belief. Do you believe the

2 state security of Serbia would address a dispute between Mikelic and

3 Karadzic concerning an oil cistern? Now, you can give an answer to that,

4 if you can.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that that is what happened.

6 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll adjourn now. 20 minutes, please.

7 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

8 --- Upon commencing at 10.56 a.m.

9 JUDGE MAY: Now, we have, I understand, an excerpt from the last

10 part of the interview which was played. We'll ask the registrar to give

11 it a number.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be marked Defence Exhibit

13 57B, under seal.

14 JUDGE MAY: There's also, I see on the desk, the collection, the

15 list of the collection, 69.000 dollars, or 169.000, I forget the precise

16 amount. Do you want this exhibited, Mr. Milosevic? Yes.

17 Give it an exhibit number, please.

18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19 JUDGE MAY: No, there's no reason why it should be under seal. It

20 can be open.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Defence Exhibit 63.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Let's finish the question of oil. The Ministry of Energy and the

25 man in charge or responsible for oil was Milivoj Kricka, the Minister of

1 Energy; is that right?

2 A. In Borislav Mikelic's government, yes.

3 Q. But you're talking about that period, aren't you, when you claim

4 what you allege happened? Do you know that Milivoj Kricka, the Minister

5 of Energy, is also saying that you're not telling the truth?

6 A. I don't know what Kricka, is saying, but I do know that Kricka

7 was drilling the Adriatic oil pipeline, or the Yugoslav pipeline, as it

8 was known, in the area of Banija or Kordun before that pipeline in 1995

9 was to be set in operation in order to exhaust the oil reserves that

10 existed.

11 Q. I see. So you're now accusing the Minister of Energy for drilling

12 the pipeline.

13 A. No. That was Mikelic's decision, and his decision, and many

14 people agreed with that.

15 Q. So you didn't agree, of course.

16 A. I didn't mind. It wasn't part of my responsibility. But if that

17 was useful for Krajina, I agreed.

18 Q. Very well, then. Since you have such a critical attitude towards

19 Mikelic's government, and him personally, are you aware that over an

20 eight-month period of this government headed by Borislav Mikelic, that you

21 describe in this way, industrial production went up by all of 26 per cent,

22 and agricultural production marked an increase of 35 per cent? And the

23 results were such that material reserves went up seven times over, and

24 employed figures increased by 23.000 workers, which, for the conditions in

25 Krajina, was a great deal. And also, it became possible in May to start

1 paying out salaries to employees in public service, and these salaries had

2 been delayed also for the pensioners, members of the army, the police of

3 the Republic of Srpska Krajina, all this thanks to a stabilisation of

4 economic conditions as a result of the efforts invested by this

5 government. Are you aware of this?

6 A. It is true that the government headed by Borislav Mikelic did

7 achieve a lot and produced positive results in terms of stabilisation of

8 economic and overall social life in the Republic of Srpska Krajina,

9 especially so in the second half of 1994 and the beginning of 1995.

10 Q. And is it true that one of the -- that the priorities of this

11 government headed by Mikelic was the implementation of the Zagreb Peace

12 Agreement, signed on the 29th of November, 1994, in the embassy of Russia,

13 in Belgrade -- in Zagreb, sorry, and signed by Admiral Rakic, who was

14 Minister of Defence of the Republic Srpska Krajina, and General Mile

15 Novakovic, upon authority of Milan Martic, president of the Republic of

16 Srpska Krajina?

17 A. Would you please repeat that? I think you mentioned a number of

18 things just then.

19 Q. My question was whether it is true that one of the top priorities

20 of that government headed by Mikelic was the implementation of the Zagreb

21 Peace Agreement, and I mentioned, and I identified the people involved.

22 A. You mentioned two agreements, one from November 1994, which was an

23 agreement with the Croatian government on the normalisation of economic

24 relations in certain areas, which were listed specifically, that is,

25 traffic, oil, electricity, water supply, and railway traffic. And before

1 that, there was another agreement that you mentioned, and that was an

2 agreement on a ceasefire, from March 1994, signed by the persons you

3 named. I don't know exactly, but that agreement was later confirmed by

4 the Assembly.

5 Q. That's right. But I also assume that you will not deny that those

6 two agreements were linked together and that that was part of the

7 normalisation of relations: First a ceasefire, followed by the

8 establishment of economic relations. So I'm asking you: Is it true that

9 a negotiating team was formed to discuss economic issues with Croatia, and

10 before those economic negotiations with Croatia and joint activities, this

11 agreement on a ceasefire was implemented?

12 A. The ceasefire agreement was complied with. There were reports of

13 isolated incidents, but generally it was observed. Secondly, the talks on

14 economic relations with Croatia between representatives of the government

15 of Krajina and representatives of the Croatian government started in

16 August, after you had approved those talks to begin in June, and those

17 talks ended partly with the agreement in November relating to certain

18 economic issues.

19 Q. And do you remember that those negotiations were conducted with

20 the participation - I would call it active participation and direct

21 involvement - of international mediators: David Owen and Thorwald

22 Stoltenberg and their associates, such as Kai Eide and others, and that

23 priorities were established, and those were the opening to traffic of the

24 Belgrade-Zagreb highway, the Yugoslav oil pipeline, the long-distance

25 electricity cables, the water supply system, and then other economic

1 matters and projects, such as the project to set up a joint oil company,

2 and others? Do you remember that?

3 A. In my previous answer, I said what the agreement covered, and it

4 is true that the negotiations started also through the mediation of

5 international mediators that you have mentioned.

6 Q. Tell me now: Is it true that when final agreement was reached on

7 all matters on which economic negotiations were conducted, that you

8 refused to go to Zagreb because it was your estimate that your rating

9 would go down in Krajina and, to tell you the truth, among Serbs outside

10 of Krajina as well? Was that right or not?

11 A. As far as I know, the agreement was signed in Knin, in the

12 headquarters of the peace forces for Sector South.

13 Q. Again you're answering a question that I did not put to you.

14 JUDGE MAY: We'll go into private session to deal with this.

15 [Private session ordered for public release,18 December 2002 (D18520-D18519)]

16 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. I didn't ask you where the agreement was signed. I'm talking

20 about the negotiations which were conducted and which you refused to go to

21 because you felt your rating would go down, not only in Krajina but among

22 Serbs in other parts - in Republika Srpska and in Serbia - if you appear

23 there at those negotiations in Zagreb.

24 A. I had agreed the beginning of those negotiations with Mikelic,

25 with Sarinic and Pasalic, who participated on behalf of the Croatian

1 government, and I took part in all those -- all the negotiations held in

2 Knin. I didn't go to Zagreb. But commissions that had been formed for

3 certain matters also took part in those negotiations. For the oil

4 pipeline, for instance, electricity, water, the highway.

5 Q. But my question was, and you've now partially answered it, that

6 you didn't go to Zagreb; you refused to go to Zagreb to attend those

7 negotiations so that your rating would not go down. I didn't ask you

8 about anything else. Is it true that the negotiations on economic

9 relations with the mediation of Owen and Stoltenberg, economic relations

10 between Krajina and Croatia went on for all of three months, and that you

11 were constantly obstructing them, that they were almost completed when, at

12 a session of the government of Republika Srpska Krajina in Vukovar, on the

13 18th of November, 1994, you called in question all the elements of the

14 agreement, saying that this would mean economic dependence on Croatia,

15 something you could not accept? Was that how it was?

16 A. The following was true: I took a very active part in those

17 negotiations. I had a very clear position regarding the linking up of the

18 economics, the energy system, the oil pipeline, the water supply system,

19 and transportation, which were the subject of the agreement. And I

20 defended my position publicly and emphatically, also in the Assembly and

21 elsewhere. But I did accept the final agreement. I agreed with it. And

22 that agreement was approved by the government, of which I was a member,

23 and the Assembly in which there were deputies from my party. The

24 agreement, such as it was reached at the end, I agreed with it; but during

25 the negotiation, I sharply defended my positions and presented my views

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1 about it.

2 Q. And what were those positions that you upheld during those

3 negotiations? Will you tell us?

4 A. Well, for example, with regard to the power system, electricity,

5 and the network that would link up the power system in Krajina and in

6 Croatia. That was one point. And I insisted that it could be linked up

7 with a 110-kilowatt power, because it can be measured. The technicians

8 explained this to me, a professional explained it to me, and they said

9 that with that voltage, one was able to measure the current, the flow of

10 electricity. As for the waterworks, I demanded that water supplies be

11 determined which were from the source the Obrovac in Krajina, and the

12 water quotas, which would be allotted to the municipalities of Benkovac

13 and the Zadar municipality in Croatia. So I asked that this be precisely

14 defined, because it was an area that was subject to drought very

15 frequently, which meant that the water supply would drop off. And if we

16 determined a quantity of water for the Zadar municipality, or Croatia,

17 then during the drought, there would be a water shortage for Obrovac and

18 Benkovac. So those were the details that were elaborated and I wanted the

19 agreement to reflect those details.

20 Q. So you did not want to have water allowed for Croatia?

21 A. No, quite the contrary. I asked that the water supply system,

22 which was common for Obrovac, Benkovac, and Zadar, should be defined. That

23 is to say, the water quotas to be allotted to those municipalities, that

24 the percentage be determined, or quantities of water, not only for Zadar,

25 so that if there was a drought, Obrovac and Benkovac would suffer the

1 aftereffects and not have enough water supply. Now Zadar took a greater

2 part, or greater share, previously in building the water supply system and

3 had more users, so it was logical that Zadar be allotted larger quantities

4 of water. But of course we had to set the quotas for the other

5 municipalities as well, Benkovac and Obrovac.

6 Q. All right. Let's not go into all these details. What I asked you

7 was: Is it true that at the government meeting held in Vukovar on the

8 18th of November, you brought into question this entire agreement, and the

9 explanation you gave was that it was your economic dependence on Croatia

10 and that therefore it was unacceptable to you? Just say yes or no: Yes,

11 it was; no, it wasn't. That's all I need from you, a yes or no answer.

12 If you say that this is not true, no problem, just say it's not true. If

13 it is indeed not true.

14 A. It is true that I said that, but it is not true that I brought the

15 whole agreement into question.

16 Q. So it is true that you said that. That's all I wanted to hear

17 from you.

18 A. I said that it was true that I had said that but that I did not

19 obstruct the signing of the agreement.

20 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness give his explanation. Yes.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before the agreement was signed, I

22 made some very sharp criticisms of it, and one of those statements went

23 along those lines, in that sense. And it was also broadcast by the

24 Belgrade Novosti studio and the papers for Belgrade, and I heard at the

25 time that Milosevic had insisted that the provincial edition be thrown

1 into the wastepaper basket because the statement wasn't a good one.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Wasn't a good statement that you were toppling the relations that

4 were so sensitive and that you were just beginning to build up; isn't that

5 so, Mr. MILAN BABIC?

6 A. It was not a breaking down of those relations; it was building

7 them up on sound foundations.

8 Q. First of all you said you cannot -- you could not allow being

9 economically reliant upon Croatia and that you made a statement to that

10 effect.

11 A. I did make a statement to that effect because I wanted it

12 particularly -- specifically defined what sectors we're talking about.

13 Q. You made the statement in the way that you did.

14 A. I wanted the relations between Krajina and Croatia to be well

15 measured.

16 Q. You didn't want it to be dependent upon Croatia?

17 A. If we had a uniform water supply system, if we all relied on the

18 same water supply system, I wanted us to know who gets what.

19 Q. You were against and you reiterate as your arguments the ones set

20 out in the agreement, and the agreement was nonetheless signed. It went

21 through despite your opposition, Mr. MILAN BABIC; isn't that right?

22 A. The agreement was signed because I agreed to it, but I didn't

23 attend the signing ceremony.

24 Q. Tell me then, please: Is it true that what you just said here and

25 now, that that's what you said, you made the statement, repeated it before

1 the government, using almost the very same words, at the Assembly in

2 Vukovar. After that, you asked for new corrections to be made,

3 adjustments, and new formulations. And then the agreement that was

4 adopted at the government meeting by a two thirds majority of the Assembly

5 later on, held on the 1st of December, 1994, you refused to sign it, or

6 rather, you refused to attend the signing of the agreement; isn't that

7 right?

8 A. You've said several things there. Now, would you take the

9 questions in turn and ask me one by one.

10 Q. All right, then. Your position, your position whereby you were

11 adamantly against, in opposition to it. You repeated it at the Assembly

12 meeting?

13 A. I repeated my statement at the Assembly and this was conveyed.

14 Q. You asked for new adjustments, reformulations to be introduced

15 into the agreement, and at the Assembly and the government ruled against

16 your position?

17 A. At the beginning of 1995, with respect to the discussions that

18 were held with respect to Croatia's abolishing the mandate, the term of

19 office up until then for the UN peacekeepers, the debate continued over

20 the agreement, and it was put on ice until that political conflict had

21 been settled. So that's another issue. And it took place later on.

22 Q. Yes, that is quite true. But once again, you're giving us

23 half-truths and distorting the facts. When it was signed -- let's be

24 quite specific. Is this true -- it's all right, I don't mind, you don't

25 have to agree. If you say it's not true, I'll accept that. So is it true

1 that when the agreement was signed, and you didn't want to go there to the

2 signing session, and you were in fact advertising yourself in that way, so

3 when the agreement was signed, at that time, you and your SDS Krajina

4 party branch had decided to launch the initiative with the government and,

5 via the Assembly, to freeze the economic agreement with Croatia at once.

6 Was this your self-will once again coming to the fore? Because you also

7 say in the same breath that you wanted Krajina to become a part of

8 Croatia.

9 JUDGE MAY: The witness cannot possibly answer questions of this

10 sort. Now, what is the question, put shortly?

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. This is the question: When the agreement was signed, you and your

13 party, the SDS of Krajina, launched an initiative and you decided to take

14 this initiative with the government of the RSK and through the Assembly of

15 the RSK, to freeze the economic agreement with Croatia at once. So an

16 agreement that had just been signed to which you were opposed, you took

17 the initiative to have it put on ice; isn't that right?

18 A. I've already said that this came later on, under different

19 circumstances and for different reasons. So there was mention of Croatia

20 suspending, or rather, not allowing the continuation of the term of office

21 of the UN peacekeepers, and that was a reaction, this suspending of the

22 economic agreement with Croatia. This was caused by the decision made by

23 the Croatian government, or rather, the priority was that the relations be

24 settled politically first, and this was provoked by Croatia.

25 Q. All right. So this wasn't ordered by Belgrade now, but it was the

1 Croatian government that was to blame. Well, I'm happy to hear that

2 there's something that Belgrade isn't being blamed for.

3 So your position to freeze the agreement, you say, was a reaction

4 to the fact that the Croatian government did not wish to extend the

5 mandate of the UN peacekeepers?

6 A. That's right.

7 Q. And why didn't somebody else think of that? Why did you have to

8 be a greater Catholic than the pope? How come Mikelic didn't think of

9 that, to freeze the agreement, or somebody else? How come you thought of

10 the idea and you were opposed to the agreement in the first place?

11 A. Well, I said that I wasn't opposed to the agreement. I explained

12 the conditions and circumstances under which the agreement was put on ice,

13 until this other priority, political issue, had been resolved.

14 Q. All right. That means that you spoke out against the agreement

15 because the agreement is what would make Krajina economically dependent

16 upon Croatia. You did not want to attend the signing ceremony when the

17 agreement was finally signed. You asked that it be frozen. And now you

18 tell us that you were actually in favour of the agreement. Am I

19 understanding? Am I reading you correctly?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have spoken at

21 length about this question.

22 JUDGE MAY: There's no needed to go over it again.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. And do you happen to remember that that same man, Mikelic, after

25 the dramatic events that took place in Western Slavonia at an Assembly

1 meeting of the RSK, pointed to all the failures that the state and

2 military leadership, the omissions they had made, and indicated that the

3 borders, 1.600 kilometres of the borders - that was the length of them -

4 and that there was no force, no power in the world that could defend those

5 borders? And then you yourself took urgent steps --

6 JUDGE MAY: One at a time. The witness cannot possibly answer

7 these sort of rambling questions. Now, what's the point?

8 It's said that Mikelic, at an Assembly, pointed to failures and

9 omissions and said there was no power in the world that could defend the

10 borders. Now, is that right or not? Did he say that?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I remember is the Assembly that

12 took place between the 18th and 20th of May, 1995, and at that meeting,

13 Mikelic put forward his criticisms, and they related to cutting off,

14 closing down the motorway at Okucani. So he accused Martic and some other

15 people of having done that, from Western Slavonia. He said that they had

16 caused the intervention that was called Flash, Operation Flash, in Western

17 Slavonia, because Martic and a group of men that he mentioned had in fact

18 blocked the motorway at Okucani, the motorway which was open, according to

19 the agreement reached with Croatia. That was what it was about.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Did Mikelic reach an agreement about the opening of the motorway?

22 A. That was another portion of the economic agreement with Croatia.

23 Q. Yes, that's right. And you shut down the motorway. You closed it

24 off, out of spite.

25 A. I told you who closed off the motorway.

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1 Q. Well, who did, if it wasn't you?

2 A. You mean me personally?

3 Q. You personally and the representatives of your party at whose head

4 you stood.

5 A. I did not have a party of my own. I don't know how many members

6 of the SDS Krajina were in Western Slavonia. At the time, I was the

7 Foreign Minister, and the incident over there was caused by a group of men

8 from Okucani and the police and Martic, who had ordered the motorway to be

9 closed.

10 Q. That too is not true. You're just saying what suits you. But let

11 me ask the second part of my question. Is it true and correct that at

12 that time you took urgent measures to put on the agenda of the Assembly in

13 Borovo Selo the decision on the unification of the RSK with the Republika

14 Srpska? Is that right? Is that true? Just say yes or no. Don't answer

15 questions that I'm not asking you.

16 A. It wasn't urgent procedure. It was placed on the agenda by the

17 request of the bishop of the Serbian Orthodox Church and at the request of

18 Karadzic, Krajisnik, Jovica Stanisic --

19 Q. So you didn't put it on the agenda?

20 A. We did so at the initiative and following requests from three

21 bishops of the Serbian Orthodox Church who arrived on the 16th of May in

22 Knin, and they represented the Sabor Assembly of the Serbian Orthodox

23 Church, which was meeting in Belgrade at the time to ask for the

24 unification of the RSK and the Republika Srpska.

25 Q. And is it true that at the time you agreed to be head of the board

1 for the elaboration of the new constitution of the new state of the RSK

2 and Republika Srpska, although you knew full well that a step of this kind

3 was categorically opposed by officials in Belgrade and I personally?

4 A. I accepted to be a member of the committee working on the issue

5 for political reasons, which I can explain to you here if you wish.

6 Q. Well, do you know, are you aware, of how far we were opposed, how

7 categorically we were opposed to completely -- a step that was not well

8 thought out?

9 A. I heard this from others, not from you.

10 Q. All right. And all the rest that you have told us about you heard

11 from me; is that right? Fine. So everything you heard from others can be

12 eliminated.

13 A. Krajisnik and Karadzic said that at that point in time, you would

14 not give permission for that, although that should be done. They said

15 that should be done first and then see later on.

16 Q. And is it true and correct that, as to this urgent unification of

17 the RSK and the Republika Srpska, nothing came of that? And to pull the

18 wool over the public's eyes and the Serbs in Croatia, you drew up some

19 initial premises of a state in common, a future state in common, together

20 with Biljana Plavsic, the two of you did, you on behalf of the RSK and she

21 on behalf of the Republika Srpska?

22 A. Radovan Karadzic, at the meeting in Bijeljina, that is to say the

23 second meeting held on the territory of Republika Srpska, where this issue

24 was discussed, said that now was not the time, although he insisted, he

25 had insisted beforehand, that this be put into effect as soon as possible.

1 Mrs. Plavsic, at that time meeting in Bijeljina, said, "Well, we have

2 crossed ourselves so many times, made the sign of the cross for the

3 unification of our two countries, and we can't implement it now?"

4 What this was all about was the following: Krajisnik and Plavsic,

5 the plan on unification, was used by them. They used the plan as a form

6 of threat in order to further their own political ends within

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina, or rather, as Nikola Koljevic said, in very precise

8 terms -- Nikola Koljevic himself was on the committee working on the

9 unification plan in Banja Luka, and he said it's following. He said:

10 "Milan, this is a paradox, he said. We are entering into a unification

11 alliance with you, whereas we are in an alliance with the Croats."

12 Q. All right. I don't think we need remain in private session, Mr.,

13 for the next part.

14 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

15 [Open session]

16 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. As we're talking about the political status of Serbs in Krajina

19 and in Republika Srpska, and so on and so forth, I think that we can state

20 in open -- we can ask for answers in open session to some of the questions

21 that have been raised and that relate to the declaration adopted at a

22 Sabor Assembly held in Srb on the 25th of July, 1995.

23 Could you give me your views about that declaration.

24 A. What kind of opinion do you want?

25 Q. What?

1 A. In what sense do you want me to answer?

2 Q. Well, you have said a lot of contradictory things. I would like

3 to know whether you agreed with the contents of that declaration.

4 JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues]... Mr. Milosevic.

5 Your comments on the evidence are of no assistance to anybody. No doubt

6 you do it for your own purposes, but you don't assist the Court and it's

7 not fair to the witness. Now, what is it you want to put, in concrete

8 terms, as opposed to making some generalizations?

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What is not fair to the witness?

10 JUDGE MAY: It's not fair to make these general and sometimes

11 rather wild allegations that he's been contradicting himself and the like.

12 Now, point out a contradiction. If you want to ask him about it, of

13 course you're entitled to. But put things in concrete terms, not

14 generalizations and not comments on the evidence, such as, "You've said a

15 lot of contradictory things." Now, ask something concrete.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Forget, then, all the

17 contradictory things he said.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. My specific question is as follows: Now, when you take this

20 declaration from Srb, do you agree with the text or not?

21 A. At that time, I agreed with that text.

22 Q. All right, then. What about today? You agreed at that time. Do

23 you agree with it today?

24 A. Today, political circumstances are different. We have behind us

25 an experience full of political mistakes and failures. But in itself, the

1 text of the declaration, in those times and under those circumstances,

2 could have produced a good political effect had it not been for subsequent

3 political abuses and your own insistence on a political process which you

4 described as legal, whereas it ended up causing internecine conflicts and

5 divisions.

6 Q. We've already heard that. You explained, in response to one of my

7 questions yesterday, that it was not the violent secession of certain

8 republics that caused the war in Yugoslavia, and it was not the effect of

9 the various political pressures from outside; it was, rather, the right to

10 self-determination that caused the war.

11 A. Well, that was your explanation. The war was caused by you, by

12 abusing and compromising that right to self-determination.

13 Q. All right, then. Since you say that from today's point of view

14 you would not today support this declaration again -- did I understand you

15 correctly?

16 A. I referred to certain political processes which followed that

17 declaration.

18 Q. I'll read out to you something that you wrote at that time

19 proceeding from universal principles, or rather, one universal principle,

20 and that is the right of peoples to self-determination after secession,

21 and proceeding from the existing norms in the constitution of the FRY and

22 the Republic of Croatia, and especially in the Republic of Croatia,

23 stating that the Republic of Croatia is also a state of the Serbian people

24 of Croatia, and for purposes of protecting its sovereignty and freedom,

25 the Serbian people populating today's unified territories hereby adopts

1 and promulgates.

2 What is there about it that is not honourable or principled? What

3 do you see in it that is not politically correct and dishonest?

4 A. In that part of the text that you read?

5 Q. I can read out to you the entire declaration.

6 A. The right to self-determination should have been exercised within

7 the boundaries of the republics where these peoples lived. That would

8 have been a solution that would not have caused conflicts.

9 Q. So that is your current interpretation?

10 A. That's my current opinion.

11 Q. I don't know where it is in my notes, but I'll find it later. It

12 is precisely peaceful solutions that the Presidency of the SFRY discussed

13 at that time. Before I quote again to you a part of this declaration, do

14 you know that in all constitutions of Croatia, until those changes that

15 brought HDZ into power, that in all constitutions of Croatia, the Serbian

16 people in Croatia were treated as an equal constituent nation? Do you

17 know that?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. Do you know that Croats, Serbs, and Slovenes who lived in the

20 Austro-Hungarian empire after the First World War united into one state

21 with Serbia who was on the side of the victors in that war, the First

22 World War, whereas Serbs, Croats, Slovenes, and other South Slavs in that

23 area were on the side of the Austro-Hungarian empire?

24 A. I spoke before this Court about the way the Kingdom of Serbs,

25 Croats, and Slovenes was established.

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1 Q. It was those Serbs who united together with Croats and Slovenes in

2 this area, who united with Serbia, who were expelled from that state as if

3 they hadn't existed before that state ever came into being.

4 A. That was an agreement between the Serbian people there and the

5 Croatian government, or rather, lack of agreement between them about the

6 position of the Serbian people there.

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the record reflect that I said what period

8 are we dealing with? Perhaps the witness can help us.

9 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

10 MR. MAY: Be quiet, Mr. Milosevic.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Milosevic made a historical

12 outline of the establishment of the first state in 1918, of the first

13 state of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes, and the unification of those peoples

14 from the previous territory of the Austro-Hungarian empire. That was one

15 topic. Another topic --

16 JUDGE MAY: We're dealing with 1918. No assistance to us,

17 Mr. Milosevic. Now, move on to something up to date, if you want us to

18 continue with this.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I just mentioned in passing

20 1918 in a complex sentence addressed to the witness.

21 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Let us move on, then. Let us move on.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Therefore, it is not in dispute that in all constitutions until

24 1990, until the HDZ appeared, the Serbian people were an equal,

25 constituent people within Croatia and that Croatia was defined as the

1 state of the Croatian people, the Serbian people, and other peoples living

2 there. Was that true, Mr. MILAN BABIC?

3 A. Yes, that's true. I spoke about that several times already.

4 Q. So it's not an everyday political conflict between HDZ and Serbian

5 representatives in 1990. It was about the abolishing of the status of the

6 Serbian people in Krajina, a status which they had even before Croatia

7 existed?

8 A. I said already, and let me repeat: Yes, it was a topic and the

9 subject of the political conflict in 1990 between the political

10 representatives of the Serbian people and the new Croatian authorities,

11 that is, the HDZ. You interfered in that political conflict in the way

12 I've already described.

13 Q. What you described is not correct, but let me get back to this

14 declaration of which you're now washing your hands. Let me read another

15 passage from it.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, to assist you, it's the

17 declaration of Srb, and it's tab 10 of Exhibit 351.

18 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. So this one further up I read out invokes the constitution of

21 Croatia, which defines Croatia as a state belonging also to the Serbian

22 people. And then it goes on to say in the declaration itself:

23 "Within the borders of the state of Croatia, which is a state also

24 of the Serbian people living in it, the Serbian people, based on its

25 geographical, historical, cultural, and other characteristics, is a

1 sovereign people, with all the rights making up the sovereignty of one

2 people."

3 What do you have against a stand like that? Is that an honourable

4 position?

5 A. At that time, it was an honourable position that we fought for.

6 It is still an honourable position from the point of view of the

7 constitution and the status of the Serbian people in Croatia.

8 Q. A stance can be either principled or unprincipled. It cannot be

9 principled at one time and not be principled today. I'll quote another

10 passage:

11 "One cannot, without the participation of the Serbian people in

12 Croatia, choose the form of Yugoslav unity, especially in terms of

13 secession. Peoples can secede, not states."

14 Is that an appropriate position? Was it true?

15 A. That's in the declaration. It was true at the time. I said at

16 the time there were two options: One in favour of the Yugoslav Federation,

17 and staying within it, which was supported by you; and another option,

18 supported by the HDZ, headed by Franjo Tudjman, and between these two

19 options, we chose the option favoured by Serbia, and that's the sentence

20 you just read.

21 Q. I don't know whether you accepted that option. If you had, it is

22 to your credit, because the stance of Serbia at the time was that all

23 nations and peoples are equal, that it was peoples who united using their

24 right to self-determination into Yugoslavia. It was no fabrication of the

25 regime. It is a historic fact contained in all the constitutions of

1 Yugoslavia until that day.

2 A. You forgot just one thing: Peoples exercise their equality and

3 rights within the republics where they lived, whereas on the level of the

4 SFRY, they exercised them through their republics. That's what you

5 overlooked.

6 Q. You didn't overlook anything. You simply don't know anything

7 about it. Out of fear, you are now denouncing very principled positions

8 that you held at the time, and I think --

9 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Just a moment. It's alleged that you

10 are acting out of fear in denouncing the principles you held at the time.

11 You should have the opportunity of answering that.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not giving up those views out of

13 fear. I only believe that advocating such stands on the division of

14 peoples in states was groundwork for conflict in war, and it was a

15 premise, as it turned out, for the beginning of ethnic clashes on the

16 territory of Yugoslavia, which brought about horrors and destruction.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Wasn't it precisely the stand of Serbia and my own personal stand

19 that peoples should not separate, that they should stay together, to

20 preserve Yugoslavia instead? And I'm claiming, and was claiming at the

21 time, that only if we preserve Yugoslavia, the Serbian people would remain

22 within one state, because by creating that state in 1918, they began

23 living in one state, although they populated various territories in that

24 part of the world.

25 A. You said that only that people would remain within one state,

1 whereas self-determination was divided across republics. Parts of other

2 republics who did not favour that sort of Yugoslavia also had the right to

3 self-determination, and that caused the war.

4 Q. Let us look at the facts. It is senseless to repeat over and over

5 again this lecture about Serbia and myself personally working for

6 divisions and separation. If we had done that, Serbia would not have been

7 the only one who remained with an unchanged ethnic composition throughout

8 these years. We worked on the country for unity and preserving

9 Yugoslavia. And this declaration which you are denouncing now reflects an

10 honourable and principled position, and you degraded it by the moves you

11 made. And I'll tell you about one move in particular: On the 28th of

12 February, 1991, you made the decision, instead of this political approach

13 and political solution, you made a decision on annexing SAO Krajina to the

14 Republic of Serbia, although Belgrade, Serbia, and I myself were opposed

15 to it. Wasn't this the way to resolve these principled issues? You

16 approached them in a completely wrong way, which you are now trying to

17 blame on your associates --

18 JUDGE MAY: Now, you've been told before, Mr. Milosevic, that

19 speeches are not questions, and we've had a speech which has lasted a

20 minute and a half. We'll go into private session.

21 [Private session ordered for public release,18 December 2002 (D18520-D18519)]

22 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE MAY: Wait a moment.

24 Witness MILAN BABIC, we've probably been over these matters to

25 exhaustion, but if there's anything you want to say about anything which

1 the accused has been asserting in the last minute and a half, you can; in

2 particular, the decision of the 28th of February, 1991.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 28th of February, 1991, the

4 Serbian National Council and the Executive Council of SAO Krajina adopted

5 a resolution on the separation of SAO Krajina from the Republic of

6 Croatia. That was in reaction to a previous decision taken by the

7 Republic of Croatia dated the 20th of February on separation from

8 Yugoslavia, and this again was in line with the political logic or claims

9 of Milosevic in Serbia that nations are entitled to self-determination,

10 and this came after the showing of the film on Spegelj and a campaign from

11 which the Serbs in Krajina realised that the government of Croatia was an

12 enemy. And this decision was formalised on the 1st of April.

13 And in the meantime, on the 16th of March, 1991, upon the request

14 of Slobodan Milosevic, addressed to me personally by phone to support

15 Yugoslavia, the Executive Council of SAO Krajina took a decision on

16 separation from the Republic of Croatia and addressed a draft of the

17 decision to the municipalities for adoption, and Municipal Assemblies

18 adopted such a decision after that.

19 So all this came later, from a provision in the declaration which

20 Slobodan Milosevic supported and told me himself that this position was

21 correct and that the JNA would uphold this principle of self-determination

22 of nations or peoples. And these guarantees prompted the adoption of such

23 decisions.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Wasn't my public policy what you said I told you by phone? This

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1 was on all TV stations, the newspapers, and everywhere, that we were

2 advocating the preservation of Yugoslavia? So therefore, whether I spoke

3 to you about it is quite unimportant. I addressed millions of people

4 through the mediation of television, in favour of Yugoslavia.

5 A. Yes, but after that, you made a contradictory statement. After

6 this talk to me, you said that Yugoslavia was not functioning, or

7 something to that effect.

8 Q. Whether something is functioning or not, I don't know what you are

9 alluding to now, but nowhere, in no statement of mine, no public

10 appearance of mine, is there any other policy reflected except the policy

11 of preserving Yugoslavia.

12 A. That the peoples of Yugoslavia are entitled to self-determination,

13 that the Serbian people are entitled to live one state, that they cannot

14 live in four states, that a confederation is not a state but a federation,

15 so you advocated that the Serb people should remain in a state that you

16 were creating.

17 Q. Why are you making conclusions from my public statements and

18 taking sentences out of context? The other side burnt its fingers too

19 when it took out of context my speech in Kosovo Polje, and now it's being

20 printed in some 50 countries to the shame and disgrace of this very

21 institution.

22 JUDGE MAY: Nothing to do with this witness. It's nothing to do

23 with this witness, Mr. Milosevic. Now, what is the point?

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. So was it clear that one -- that a principled position regarding

1 the right to self-determination, and a principled position in favour of

2 the preservation of Yugoslavia, is one thing, and that quite opposite to

3 that is this crazy decision of yours on the unification of SAO Krajina

4 with the Republic of Serbia? You know very well that Serbia opposed this,

5 that I personally opposed it and said that it was crazy. How can you

6 justify such a decision of yours by our position that Yugoslavia had to be

7 preserved? Our support for Yugoslavia.

8 A. Your policy was to preserve Yugoslavia for the Serbian people,

9 regardless of where they lived within the territory of Yugoslavia. That

10 was an expression of your policies. That was what you advocated.

11 Q. You just said something that is quite right; to preserve

12 Yugoslavia because it is in the best interest of all the Yugoslav peoples,

13 and of course on condition that those peoples want that too. Otherwise,

14 how could there be the right of peoples to self-determination if someone

15 were to force a people to remain in a particular state?

16 A. Well, that is the gist of it. You were saying that other peoples

17 need not remain in Yugoslavia, that is, in the state that you were

18 building, but that the Serb people had to and that they have the right to

19 and that they want to remain in that state, in that Yugoslavia that you

20 were building. And you said to me on innumerable occasions that this

21 right of the Serbian people in Croatia, that is, in SAO Krajina, would be

22 protected by the Yugoslav People's Army.

23 Q. So you are now claiming that you wanted to remain in Yugoslavia,

24 under pressure, because I told you you had to stay there.

25 A. You said that that was our right and that the JNA would protect

1 our right and that this was lawful and legal.