021021ED

Page 11952

1 Hrvatska Dubica on Monday, 18th of September, 1991."

2 [Interpretation] That means you say they occupied Hrvatska Dubica

3 on the 18th of September, the Serbs, and that is what -- as it stands, and

4 you say you didn't say that. Now, I'm asking you, how is it possible for

5 them to occupy their own town and the houses and streets they lived in?

6 A. You are distorting some things. I did not say that they occupied

7 it. I said that when the population withdrew, when the population left,

8 when they withdrew, because in Dubica at that time there was the Croatian

9 police there. There were no soldiers, no members of the army, I just saw

10 the police. So when the bridge was blown up -- you see, you're distorting

11 all this, because when the bridge was blown up, that's what happened.

12 Several days later, people started to flee. Everybody fled. Now, what

13 happened afterwards -- and you say that I said this was on the 16th. It

14 was a Saturday. I don't remember the exact date, whether it was the 16th

15 or the 17th, but it was a Saturday.

16 Now, what happened afterwards, after that particular Saturday, I

17 really don't know. I can't say. I wasn't there.

18 Q. Mr. C-1141, please, I just read out the text of your statement

19 because I know nothing about your town. All I can do is to read what you

20 wrote down here, and I read it all word-for-word as it states in the

21 statement.

22 Now, does that mean that this is a mistake and that this

23 observation was made by mistake? Because I haven't distorted or made up

24 anything. I just read it out.

25 A. Now, this word "occupy," why it says that, I don't know who could

Page 11953

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 11954

1 have occupied it. We had withdrawn. The place was left empty. Now, who

2 came after that, I don't know. Whether it was the reservists or anybody

3 else, I really don't know.

4 Q. All right. Fine. That means it is not your statement and they

5 did not occupy the place.

6 A. It is my statement, and what I said I stand by now.

7 Q. And not -- you don't stand by what I've just read out?

8 A. Well, you've read out some things which were probably not

9 translated properly.

10 Q. Not translated properly you say, I see. Now, you just said that

11 this was after the bridge had been blown up.

12 A. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. Well, tell me, please, who blew the bridge up?

14 A. I heard -- I don't know who did it, but I heard that the bridge

15 was blown up, it seems, by the Croatian police force or whoever was there.

16 What their names were, I really don't know.

17 Q. In the paragraph before that, you say the following: [In

18 English] "On 12th or 13th of September 1991 (Wednesday), the Croatians

19 destroyed the bridge on Una River between Hrvatska Dubica and Bosanska

20 Dubica as there was a possibility of JNA tanks coming over to this area."

21 A. That's right. They were afraid.

22 Q. Yes. So Croats or, rather, Croat paramilitaries had destroyed the

23 bridge.

24 A. No. Police did that.

25 Q. So the Croatian police destroyed the bridge.

Page 11955

1 A. Yes, that's what I heard.

2 Q. And then once the Croatian police destroyed the bridge, then the

3 population started fleeing.

4 A. No. No. People continued living in Dubica.

5 Q. All right. Since you say they did not occupy, as is stated here,

6 then I will put no more questions regarding this. Can you tell us whether

7 before the 18th of September, 1991, there were -- there was some fighting

8 in the wider area of Dubica?

9 A. I don't know about that.

10 Q. So since there was no fighting in that area, there was nobody who

11 could attack or defend Dubica. The only violent event was the destruction

12 of that bridge, as far as I understand it. Is that right?

13 A. No, that's not right.

14 Q. Well, tell me what else happened there.

15 A. One couldn't reach Dubica. In the roads, there were roadblocks.

16 There were trees knocked down and then there were guards or guard patrols

17 on the road, in the hills. I don't know why it was there. I don't know

18 the reason for that, but it was there.

19 Q. I understand that you're saying now that there were watchguards

20 there, but was there any conflict there?

21 A. As far as I know, no. I don't know about that.

22 Q. Well, that's what I'm interested in. You told us that upon your

23 return to Dubica, you saw a person called Momcilo Kovacevic who was -- who

24 held a position, as far as I understood it, and you saw him putting

25 posters up, posters warning that everybody looting houses would be

Page 11956

1 punished.

2 A. Yes, that's what I did see.

3 Q. That means that a lot of people had left Dubica, the houses were

4 vacant, and as far as I understand it, this man was actually a policeman.

5 A. He did wear the uniform of the SAO police of Krajina.

6 Q. And he was putting up posters with warnings that those who loot

7 houses would be punished?

8 A. Yes, that's right. And I'm sorry I didn't bring with me one of

9 those posters so that I could show it to you here.

10 Q. I suppose that he and his colleagues wanted to protect the

11 property of inhabitants of Hrvatska Dubica; is that right?

12 A. Well, as was said in those announcements, I believe that you're

13 right. Now, whether they succeeded in actually implementing that, I don't

14 know about that.

15 Q. In your statement, you mention names of several commanders of

16 Territorial Defence.

17 A. Only one name.

18 Q. All right. Well, let's reduce it to that one name that you

19 mentioned. And that one name that you mentioned and this one person in

20 fact is a resident of Hrvatska Dubica; is that right?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Well, where was that man from?

23 A. I don't know where he was from. His name was Borojevic, and he

24 got killed. He was a young man. I don't know his first name. He's gone

25 now.

Page 11957

1 Q. I see that you mention here -- and in fact you asked for a closed

2 session in order to mention a name, and I wrote it down. You are saying

3 that you were mentioning a commander of the guard near the firehouse

4 station who was a local person, a local resident.

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. Well, that's who I'm referring to.

7 A. Oh, no. He was no commander at all. That man helped me to escape

8 from the firehouse.

9 Q. Very well. You say on page 4, paragraph 3: "The commander of the

10 guard --" so a third paragraph on page 4, you say that the commander of

11 those guards, and then you mention his nickname and so on, and you say

12 that he was a local resident from your town.

13 A. He was no commander at all. Yes, he was a local resident, and I

14 suppose that he had something to do with those guards watching us in the

15 firehouse. Now, what was his position, I don't know.

16 Q. All right, Mr. C-1141. All I'm doing is reading your statement

17 out loud to you because you, in your statement, call him the commander.

18 A. No, no, no.

19 Q. Well, that's what it says in your statement.

20 A. No. The commander of the staff was Borojevic, and the staff was

21 located in a different village, and all of them wore olive-drab uniforms

22 or something like that.

23 Q. When you say "olive-drab uniforms," you are in fact referring to

24 old JNA uniforms; is that right?

25 A. Yes. They were reservists.

Page 11958

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 11959

1 Q. And the JNA had camouflage combat uniforms. They in fact did not

2 wear old uniforms.

3 A. Well, these people, the reservists, in fact had those old

4 uniforms.

5 Q. So the local people.

6 A. Yes, reservists. I don't know any other people other than them.

7 Q. So while you were there, you did not see anybody who came from

8 outside to Hrvatska Dubica. Those were all locals; is that right?

9 A. Yes. There were locals there, yes, and there were several people

10 whom I didn't know. I saw them but I didn't know them. And later I

11 learned that they were from Bosanska Dubica. And as to who had brought

12 them there and why they came there, I don't know.

13 Q. You are from Bosanska Dubica too as far as I understood it.

14 A. No.

15 Q. Bosanska Dubica is just across the Una River; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And there was this bridge that was blown up by Croatian police

18 between Bosanska/Hrvatska Dubica?

19 A. I heard that it was destroyed on the Croatian side, and now I

20 don't know who destroyed it. I heard that it was them, because nobody

21 else had access there. The police guarded the bridge.

22 Q. All right, Mr. C-1141. Now, tell me, please, do you have any

23 information regarding how many Serb houses were looted after the 2nd

24 August of 1991 when 1.250 Serbs, based on my information, left Dubica?

25 A. I don't know that a single house was looted or set on fire at that

Page 11960

1 time. All I know is that upon my return on the 2nd of October, 1991, from

2 Ljubljana where I stayed with my brother, that there were burnt houses. I

3 stayed there for 18 days, and I saw that 12 houses were burnt down. And

4 later on, my house as well. After I left, my house was set on fire, the

5 last. And I don't know about people looting houses. I don't know.

6 Q. Well, yes, I see that you don't know. All I'm trying is to

7 extract what you do know.

8 A. Well, I will say what I do know.

9 Q. Very well.

10 A. And what I saw.

11 Q. Is it true that during July of 1991 in -- dynamite was thrown on

12 several Serb houses in and around Dubica?

13 A. I don't know about that.

14 Q. Do you know somebody called Mateljak Tomislav?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. He's a Croat, isn't he?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you remember that in his car a large amount of dynamite and

19 weapons was found, in his car?

20 A. No, I never heard about that.

21 Q. So you never heard about it?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you attend a meeting of residents of Dubica, both Serbs and

24 Croats, which was called in order to calm down tensions, inter-ethnic

25 tensions, and to calm down the situation and in order to organise jointly

Page 11961

1 and protect themselves from any possible attacks and so on?

2 A. I heard about this meeting but I did not attend it. I did not

3 attend it, but the meeting was held. I don't know in which building it

4 was held either.

5 Q. All right. Do you know that on the 19th of October, 1991, in

6 Zelenik forest, not far from Hrvatska Dubica, four persons were killed,

7 all of them Serbs: Zoran Tatic, 34 years old; Rajko Burazor, 35 years

8 old; Mladen Tomic, born in 1965; and Nenad Mitrovic, 30 years old. Did

9 you hear about this?

10 A. Yes, I did. But they encountered a mine in their vehicle, and

11 there were two older men in that vehicle and one middle-aged man as well.

12 They were all from that town. And it didn't happen in the town itself but

13 as they were leaving town, they took with them two other men, and as they

14 were leaving down, they ran into a mine and all of them were blown up.

15 Yes, that's what I heard and that's true.

16 Q. All right. You are mostly describing things that you had heard.

17 A. Yes, that's right.

18 Q. Well, let's clarify your evidence regarding the firehouse.

19 A. All right.

20 Q. How many hours did you spend in the firehouse?

21 A. From 9.00 in the morning until 5.30 or 6.00 in the evening.

22 Q. So 5.30 or 6.00?

23 A. Well, I didn't have a watch on me, but around that time.

24 Q. After that you were called and you asked to go home to get some

25 clothing, and then after that, you escaped in the hills; is that right?

Page 11962

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And after that, you don't know what was going on in the

3 firehouse.

4 A. No. The elderly remained at the firehouse that night.

5 Q. So those who were with you up until the moment you left the place

6 remained?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you don't know, therefore, whether anybody else left the

9 firehouse just like you did and the other ten people that you mentioned or

10 whether they were remained there in the firehouse.

11 A. After I left, they remained in the firehouse. However, during the

12 night, and there are some living witnesses who can testify to this, three

13 or four persons that were taken out alive, out of them only one old lady

14 died. So three or four people were taken out alive, three or four people

15 who remained after me. And as to who took them out, I don't know about

16 that.

17 Q. That's exactly what I was going to ask you. How do you know how

18 those people perished, whether they perished afterwards, on that occasion?

19 You basically don't know what went on afterwards. You left the firehouse

20 at 6.00 p.m. and don't know what happened afterwards because you fled.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You spoke about possible motives.

23 A. No.

24 Q. Let's just clarify this. You were asked, on the last day of your

25 testimony, about being arrested a few days later on and being taken to the

Page 11963

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13 English transcripts.

Page 11964

1 police station and being kept there for two days; is that right?

2 A. No. It wasn't after a couple of days. You are putting it

3 wrongly. Why don't you ask me about things that I experienced and saw.

4 Q. Well, I'm asking you, when did the police arrest you after that?

5 A. On Sunday, in the evening, upon my escape from the firehouse.

6 Once I escaped, I fled into the hills to my friend's place. I spent the

7 night there, and then a transfer was organised to transfer me from

8 Hrvatska Dubica to Bosnia, and it was attempted on Monday evening or late

9 afternoon. Yes. Towards the evening, yes. And that's how we did it.

10 However, some ten kilometres from Dubica, on the road towards

11 Sisak - because that was the only available road - I had to be transferred

12 through Hrvatska Kostajnica and Bosanska Kostajnica into Bosnia. However,

13 they caught me there and the driver who was taking me there, he and I were

14 taken back. And then on Monday evening, I was locked into a special room

15 in the old school building. I wasn't taken to the firehouse. And later

16 on, I heard, once they started interrogating me, that there was nobody in

17 the firehouse.

18 Once we returned, four kilometres from Dubica near the river in

19 Bacin, a grave was found with 43 persons who remained in the firehouse.

20 Q. All right. Let me ask you this since I'm trying to find the

21 explanation for all this: You said that you were arrested, they

22 interrogated you, and then you were asked by the Prosecution whether you

23 were beaten or not. You said that you were not. However, the topic of

24 all this was to find out why you did not support the SDS party.

25 A. No. They asked me about why I was detained there, why I was

Page 11965

1 persecuted by the local authority, and they asked me why I did not accept

2 to be the leader of the SDS and so on.

3 Q. Well, that's exactly what I wrote down. You said that you were

4 not beaten and that they interrogated you about the reasons for escaping

5 from the firehouse and not accepting the position within the SDS.

6 A. Yes, that's right.

7 Q. Well, that's what I'm referring to. Could we now there find a

8 motive for detaining you there in the firehouse? Was it because of these

9 party reasons, political party reasons? Do you have an explanation

10 yourself for the fact that you were locked in the firehouse with other

11 people, with 53 people?

12 A. I don't have an explanation. I really don't know why.

13 Q. And you knew that there were Serbs and Croats and Muslims there

14 with you.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So you were not detained on the basis of your ethnic origin but

17 you think there was a political background to it.

18 A. No, no, no. I don't know. We don't know why we were detained and

19 locked in the firehouse. In fact, the guards told us that we had to wait

20 because somebody was supposed to come and call a meeting. I don't know

21 what the meeting was about. And this meeting never took place.

22 Q. Well, the meeting never took place while you were there until 6.00

23 p.m. and you don't know whether somebody came after 6.00 p.m.

24 A. No.

25 Q. And do you think that what you're saying about the parties appears

Page 11966

1 to be specific of a multi-party system understood in the Balkan sense,

2 that is, in the understanding of Hrvatska Dubica? Would you say that that

3 provoked the problem that you encountered?

4 A. I couldn't say whether that was the reason or not, but I think

5 that if it hadn't been for -- for that -- I don't know. If there hadn't

6 been the SDS, the HDZ -- I can't answer that question. What caused it, I

7 don't know. But until then, everything was fine.

8 Q. That's what I'm talking about, Mr. C-1141. I also think that

9 Yugoslavia, up till then, was, at least for me, the most beautiful country

10 in the world.

11 A. I don't know about that.

12 Q. People were living in harmony.

13 A. I'm just saying what happened in my town. What happened

14 afterwards, who ordered it, under whose control, I don't know.

15 Q. Can you say that you know what happened to those people who stayed

16 behind in the fire station?

17 A. I can.

18 Q. On what basis can you say that and you don't know about other

19 things?

20 A. I know because the people who crossed the Una River on the Bosnian

21 side are live witnesses. They heard shooting. And all those people were

22 found there, exhumed and identified. What more do you want?

23 Q. When were those people exhumed and identified?

24 A. I don't know exactly; in 1996 or 1997. I don't know exactly when

25 the exhumation was carried out. Afterwards, when we returned.

Page 11967

1 Q. You say that this was a mass grave next to the river.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How many bodies were exhumed at the time?

4 A. All 43 that were identified. And there were others in the grave.

5 I don't know how many. Because apparently they were brought there and

6 executed there from other villages, from Crvljani. When they were brought

7 there I don't know because they were not in the fire station while I was

8 there. When they rounded them up, during the night or in the

9 morning, I don't know. I don't know about the others. I just know that

10 43 persons from my town were sent away from the fire station and they're

11 gone.

12 Q. At the end of page 5, at the end of the list, you say that the

13 exhumation was carried out in March and April 1997 and 56 bodies were

14 removed from the site. And out of those 56, 37 were identified, as well

15 as many other villagers and your wife. "I was also present," you say,

16 "when we identified a number of bodies."

17 A. No. How could I identify bodies whether out of those 43 persons

18 several persons couldn't be identified or their children didn't come who

19 are someplace in Germany, Switzerland? They were not identified, but they

20 were buried there. I and my wife couldn't recognise anyone because they

21 were not our relatives. So don't ask me things like that.

22 Q. Mr. C-1141, I'm not claiming anything that is not written in your

23 statement. I'm just reading it out for you.

24 A. Read it. Read it.

25 Q. [In English] "Our exhumation of the mass grave in Bacin took place

Page 11968

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13 English transcripts.

Page 11969

1 in March and April 1997, and 56 bodies were removed from the site. Of

2 those 56, 37 have been identified. Along with my other villagers and my

3 wife, I was also present at the site when the exhumation took place, and

4 we identified a number of bodies. Of those 43 detained at the fire

5 station on 20th of October, the bodies of following persons were from

6 Hrvatska Dubica."

7 [Interpretation] And then you list 18 names, and first and last

8 names.

9 That is what is stated in your statement. I've read out every

10 single word. Is that right or not? Is this your statement?

11 A. It is my statement, but not that list. You don't have the real

12 list. I don't know why.

13 Q. I don't know either, Mr. C-1141.

14 A. Forty-three persons are on the list from my town who were killed,

15 and out of the 43 of them, most were identified. I did not identify a

16 single one, and I claimed that. And if you have something else written

17 down there, I don't stand by that.

18 Q. But, Mr. C-1141, I don't have anything else in writing except what

19 was given to me as your statement which you signed.

20 MR. GROOME: Your Honour --

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes --

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Is that your statement?

24 MR. GROOME: Mr. Milosevic was also given what is Prosecution

25 Exhibit 344, the handwritten list of Mr. C-1141 and it contains a full

Page 11970

1 list of the names.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Milosevic, we have the point. We have the

3 exhibit which the witness produced. Now, can move on to another point.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I just finish with this first.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. There is no dispute, even though you're saying this is not quite

7 correct, there is no dispute that this was in March and April 1997, when

8 the exhumation was carried out. That is what is stated in the statement;

9 is that right?

10 A. It was in 1997, in the spring. I don't remember the exact date.

11 Q. Fine. And you're claiming that they were killed in 1991; is that

12 right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So six years prior to that.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So they were buried on a river bank in a kind of collective grave;

17 right?

18 A. It is well known where they were buried.

19 Q. Is it possible, six years later, for you to recognise anyone six

20 years later?

21 A. No, no. I never claimed that I recognised anyone. The relatives,

22 the relatives; my neighbours recognised their fathers. I didn't. How

23 could I?

24 Q. Do you think that six years later people buried on a river bank in

25 this humid earth --

Page 11971

1 JUDGE MAY: That's not a matter for the witness.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. C-1141, since you speak of the time you spent

5 in the fire station, after that you were on the run, and you don't know

6 anything that you are claiming that happened later that you didn't see.

7 A. I didn't see. I was not with them. But there is no doubt. There

8 is evidence. I didn't see it, but persons who were with me were found.

9 I've explained. And when they caught me again, I learnt it then. That

10 was on the Monday evening that I learned that they were no longer in the

11 fire station.

12 Q. So on Monday evening, you learned that there was no one in the

13 fire station.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you conclude from that that they were taken away and killed

16 then?

17 A. For sure.

18 Q. If that is the kind of conclusion you reach, could you at least

19 intimate what could have been a motive for such a crazy act for some old

20 men and women to be taken off and executed, people of different

21 ethnicities and so on? What could have been the reason?

22 A. I really don't know. I'm surprised myself what could have been

23 the reason and who could have ordered that, on whose authority and on

24 whose will this was done.

25 Q. What could anyone gain from the killing of those people when there

Page 11972

1 were no conflicts there even?

2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, the witness has answered that he

3 doesn't know, and he's as surprised as anybody.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. C-1141, you are saying that you heard afterwards that those

6 people were killed. You're not testifying about their killing because you

7 don't know anything about it; is that right?

8 A. How can I testify about the killing of that person when I wasn't

9 there when they were killed? But there are live people who are alive who

10 heard the screams and the shooting, and they identified the spot and

11 reported that that is where they were buried, and they were found there.

12 And dates are given, the time of day, the morning, when this happened, and

13 so on.

14 Q. I just wanted to state that you are not testifying about this

15 because you don't know anything about that.

16 A. That is not right. I was with them and they are gone.

17 Q. That is not disputed that you were in the fire station. But after

18 that, you were on the run. After that, you were arrested, interrogated,

19 and released again.

20 A. No. What happened to me and how I happened to survive by chance,

21 that's another matter. I was being sought after because I'm the only live

22 witness of that event.

23 Q. But you were not present.

24 A. Present at the killing? No.

25 Q. But do you know anything about who committed that crime?

Page 11973

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 11974

1 A. I don't know. And I keep asking myself why it was done and who

2 did it.

3 Q. You don't know who did it nor why.

4 A. I don't know why it was done. This was an arbitrary killing.

5 Q. But who -- who did you learn about it from?

6 A. From survivors and who were taken out during the week. I don't

7 know how. Relatives. There's a waitress, a forestry worker. There is a

8 list and they are alive, and they too are wondering why they killed them,

9 why they didn't release everyone.

10 Q. You are surprised and others. I, too, for instance, can wonder

11 why those people were killed and who killed them. So you cannot answer

12 the question who killed them nor why they killed them.

13 A. I didn't see it. If I knew who killed them --

14 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, is it disputed -- it may assist in

15 clarifying the issues: Is it disputed that these 43 people who were --

16 whose bodies were exhumed were in fact killed in October 1991 as alleged?

17 Is that fact in dispute?

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I think it is absurd for

19 you to ask such a question. How could I possibly know what happened?

20 JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues]... no, of course you

21 don't know. But -- but at the end of this trial, we are going to have to

22 make our minds up about events such as this, and we're going to have to

23 make up our minds as to what occurred on the evidence which is produced.

24 Now, the issues will be clarified if we know what is in dispute

25 and what isn't.

Page 11975

1 Now, you don't have to answer, of course, but in order to clarify,

2 as I say, the issues and reduce them, it would be helpful to know if you

3 dispute that this occurred or not.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, as you see also by the

5 statement of the witness, it is inexplicable that something like that

6 should have happened. And he doesn't know who could have done that. So

7 that one could assume that those people died under different circumstances

8 and not simply that they were brought to the fire station and after that

9 executed. It is unbelievable this hypothesis that somebody should round

10 up some old men and women in the fire station and then execute them. It

11 is simply unbelievable. That's why my common sense says --

12 JUDGE MAY: It may be unbelievable, but the question is did it

13 happen or not.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't doubt at all that this man

15 is sincerely talking about what happened in the fire station. He

16 described it. But what happened after that, he cannot know. He doesn't

17 know. And he cannot claim something that he doesn't know. That is the

18 gist of it.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I lived through and what I saw

20 I can assert, Mr. Milosevic. I don't understand why you're insisting so

21 much on something that is not clear to you. And I told you that I don't

22 know who killed them, but they were killed, killed.

23 JUDGE MAY: Witness C-1141, you don't have to speculate as to

24 that.

25 Yes, Mr. Milosevic. You've got slightly under ten minutes more

Page 11976

1 for questions.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. C-1141 --

3 JUDGE MAY: Just on the transcript, what I said to the witness is

4 you don't have to speculate as to that. Yes.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not speaking about any

6 speculations. I'm trying to establish, Mr. May, that the witness is not

7 testifying about something he saw but about something that happened prior

8 to that which may or may not point to such a course of events, and the

9 course of events is so unbelievable that something like that should happen

10 in a peaceful situation that the witness has told us about, I'm just

11 asking what else could have been the cause for the death of these people.

12 If they were exhumed and found dead six or seven years later, I assume

13 that is true, and I'm not disputing that. What I'm trying to discover is

14 what could have been the cause for the death of these people, because the

15 explanation offered by the witness is simply unbelievable for me.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. You said, Mr. C-1141, that there were Serbs, Croats, and Muslims

18 there. Who were the people who were released, those ten who were released

19 while you were there? Were they also of different ethnicities?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. Can we then exclude as the possible reason any ethnic affiliation

22 for the killing of these people?

23 A. I don't know that.

24 Q. Both Serbs and Croats were killed.

25 A. Only two Serbs.

Page 11977

1 Q. Very well. The scale can be of significance, but nevertheless,

2 both Serbs and Croats were killed. There's no dispute over that.

3 A. Yes, there isn't any.

4 Q. Can we then infer that this was not based on any kind of ethnic

5 hatred? You, too, were arrested and you're a Serb.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So you could have been killed too.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can we then conclude that this was not any kind of ethnic hatred

10 that prompted anyone to kill anyone else?

11 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we're going to have to make that

12 decision at the end of the case. The witness can merely tell us what he

13 saw. What you can ask him -- I think you've probably covered it, but to

14 make sure we'll cover it again: Could you see, Witness C-1141, any cause

15 for this killing?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know. I've thought

17 about this, and I keep thinking about it, what the cause was. I think it

18 was arbitrariness on the part of a group of people, several people. Why

19 they did that, I really don't know.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Well, can you indicate who these people were who took this

22 arbitrary action?

23 A. Well, these people in my place, in my town. Whether they had

24 received instructions from where else, I don't know, but those people were

25 in my town. They're not there now.

Page 11978

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 11979

1 Q. All right. Could you be more specific, please? You were asked a

2 question about the brigade in your town. I intervened, and you said that

3 there were 31 or 32 policemen; is that right?

4 A. Well, it wasn't a brigade. Don't say that.

5 Q. Well, that's precisely what I was claiming, that it wasn't a

6 brigade.

7 A. It was the police, and then there was a brigade or a battalion of

8 the army. That was separate. That held the line from Jasenovac to Sunja

9 along the Sava River. That's something else. They had a headquarters and

10 a staff and a commander and all the rest of it.

11 Q. All right. Okay. Now, you're saying that that was the line, a

12 sort of front line. Is that what you mean?

13 A. Yes, probably.

14 Q. And that had nothing to do with the goings-on in your particular

15 town?

16 A. No, it didn't.

17 Q. All right, very well. Now, these 31 or 32 policemen that you

18 mentioned, they were your policemen; is that right?

19 A. They weren't my policemen. They were the police officers

20 belonging to the militia, part of the local ones and some of the others I

21 really don't know. I don't know where they came from but they all had

22 patches on their shoulders saying Militia of SAO Krajina. And the

23 vehicles had this written up on them too, the vehicles they used. It said

24 the Police of SAO Krajina.

25 Q. Now, in the fire station, were you guarded by the policemen, the

Page 11980

1 Milicija or the local territorials?

2 A. No. In that police uniform, the local ones were not wearing that

3 uniform. I told you the type of uniforms they wore. But they were really

4 reservists, at least, as far as I heard. Now, who they belonged to, I

5 really don't know.

6 Q. All right. But these reservists were people who you knew. They

7 were from your town.

8 A. Yes, they were.

9 Q. Well let's just make a distinction between these two points: The

10 police who arrested you afterwards and interrogated you afterwards didn't

11 harm you at all, did they?

12 A. They didn't beat me. They were astonished. The person doing the

13 interrogation was surprised why I had been accused. I asked who accused

14 me and he didn't want to tell me.

15 Q. All right. So the policeman who arrested you was surprised?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You mean the one that interrogated you.

18 A. Yes, that's right.

19 Q. Was he a policeman?

20 A. Well, he was wearing civilian clothes. He was an inspector of

21 some kind.

22 Q. All right. An inspector in the police station. And he let you

23 go, didn't he?

24 A. No, he didn't let me go.

25 Q. Who let you go, then?

Page 11981

1 A. A group of those others did; the people, the locals, the young

2 boys. They let me go and they let me go at night so that nobody else

3 should know.

4 Q. All right. Fine. Now, did the police do anything to harm you?

5 A. No, except putting me in the fire station in the first place,

6 because they knew -- their people had a list of names, and they went

7 around the village collecting these people from the list, and they would

8 call the names of the people out and take them to the fire station.

9 Whenever they changed shifts, they would do the roll call.

10 Q. All right. The roll call and the shift and guards in the fire

11 station were not policemen but territorials; is that right?

12 A. Yes, that's right. Now, who they received their orders from, I

13 don't know. They were probably linked up with the police. I don't know.

14 Q. All right. Let's assume then that the police was not involved in

15 this, that it was the territorials who were involved in all this.

16 A. Both of them. These people guarded us and the other people

17 brought us in. Both of them.

18 Q. Well, they might have had orders to bring people to a meeting.

19 How do you know they didn't?

20 A. Well, I assumed that we were to have a meeting.

21 Q. Somebody must have said go and call these people to attend the

22 meeting.

23 A. I assume that's how it should have been, but --

24 Q. So we both agree on this assumption, right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11982

1 Q. Now, what does the police of Krajina has to do with what went on

2 in the villages? And you still assume that it happened the way you say.

3 A. What Krajina? I'm talking about the police force from my own

4 local village.

5 Q. What does the -- your local police force then have to do with the

6 events that took place later on? And you link up the reservists who are

7 also from your place.

8 A. It's not true that the reservists did that.

9 Q. Who did, then?

10 A. Well, the police gathered us all up, took us to the fire station,

11 and we were guarded by the reservists. Now, who took them over later on I

12 really don't know because I didn't see.

13 And now let me tell you one other thing, Mr. Milosevic:

14 Arbitrariness was prevalent 100 per cent. People did what they liked.

15 All of them did. Now the person -- I don't know what name to give him,

16 the person that was in charge of the policemen - not the army and

17 reservists but in charge of the policemen - was on the run and his people

18 had come into conflict with the police force of the Kostajnica

19 municipality, and one of the policemen from the municipality of Kostajnica

20 was killed. Now, why they had this conflict, because they wanted -- this

21 man wanted to separate our region and an exit to Bosanska Dubica. That's

22 it.

23 Q. Well, I know that you're talking about all this chaos that went on

24 during the civil war when some local man wanted -- took it into his head

25 to take your part of Bosanska Dubica and put it onto the other part. Now,

Page 11983

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 11984

1 who ordered him to do this?

2 A. I really don't know.

3 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we must be bringing this to a close

4 because you've had the hour allotted and slightly more, but you can

5 certainly ask two more questions.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. All right, Mr. C-1141.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. May. This just shows

9 how absurd it all is. You could have brought in any witness, a witness

10 that had been on barley, to testify about --

11 JUDGE MAY: We're not listening to comments of that sort and you

12 shouldn't be making them.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. All right. Tell me this: Do you live in Hrvatska Dubica today?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. And is this correct: That today in Dubica, of the 2.500 Serbs who

17 lived there before the war, there are only some 30 remaining inhabitants;

18 is that correct?

19 A. No, it's not.

20 Q. How many Serbs were there before the war, how many are there now?

21 A. I don't know how many there were before the war. When it was a

22 municipality, the number of inhabitants were 3.000 or closer to 4.000

23 inhabitants. Now, of that number, although I don't know exactly, but I

24 would say that perhaps 50 per cent were Serbs. The ratio was 50/50 of

25 Croats and Serbs. Now, today, in that place of ours, village of ours,

Page 12001

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [Open session]

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

5 MR. NICE:

6 Q. C-060, we are concerned in your evidence principally with the area

7 of the municipality of Podravska Slatina. It's in the north-east, as

8 we'll see on a map shortly, of Western Slavonia, but before we move on to

9 the evidence, just inform us, was Slatina ever taken control of by the

10 Serbs?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Going back to 1990, at elections in Slatina, did the SDP, led by

13 Ivica Racan, win those elections?

14 A. Yes, they did.

15 Q. Did you judge Racan to be a moderate or a man of extreme views?

16 A. No. He was a moderate man. There was nothing based on which I

17 could conclude he was an extremist.

18 Q. And the same election, the HDZ of Franjo Tudjman gained what

19 percentage of the votes, if you can recall?

20 A. I think that at the level of the republic, they gained 30 per

21 cent, and in our municipality, I suppose somewhere up to 30; perhaps 20

22 something per cent.

23 Q. The 1991 census in Slatina revealed a division of ethnic

24 groupings, I think with Croats amounting to what percentage and then tell

25 us how many Serbs.

Page 12002

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 12003

1 A. When the census was conducted, there were 57 per cent of Croats in

2 1991, whereas Serbs constituted 34.5 per cent, and the rest were

3 Yugoslavs, Hungarians, Czechs, and so on; they all made up about 8 per

4 cent.

5 Q. I turn to the SDS party in Western Slavonia. At the beginning of

6 1991, was there a man called Ilija Sasic who occupied a key position?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you recall precisely what position he did hold?

9 A. As far as I remember, he was a member of the Regional Board of the

10 SDS for Western Slavonia.

11 Q. The first president of the party in your own Podravska Slatina was

12 whom?

13 A. It was Mr. Milun Karadzic.

14 Q. How did those two men relate one to the other? Was either the

15 leader of the other?

16 A. Yes. Based on everything we saw, Mr. Karadzic in a way was

17 manipulated by Mr. Sasic, Ilija Sasic.

18 Q. Did Ilija Sasic have a role in respect of volunteers? If so,

19 what, and with whom did he contact? Volunteers and also armaments and so

20 on.

21 A. Your Honours, I have to explain that at the time, Mr. Ilija Sasic

22 used to be a judge in the municipal court in Slatina, and then later on or

23 in parallel with that, he was also politically active in the League of

24 Communists. He was a member of leadership structures of the League of

25 Communists in Slatina. And immediately thereafter, I think it was in

Page 12004

1 1990, he left the court and became an attorney, opened a private practice.

2 And based on my experience, what I heard and in Slatina, in our local

3 community and also later wider in Western Slavonia, he was associated to a

4 great extent with the establishment of the SDS. And he was also quite

5 well-connected to the leadership of that party.

6 There was a lot of talk among the local population about the

7 procurement of weapons. Prior to the units of the Territorial Defence

8 being established, the name of Mr. Sasic was closely connected to the

9 procurement of those illegal weapons and the establishment of those TO

10 units. Based on what I know, Mr. Sasic contacted very influential people

11 in Belgrade and Serbia.

12 Q. Thank you. As a sign of his position generally, was there a time

13 in April or May of 1991 when Goran Hadzic had been arrested by the

14 Croatian police and negotiations were mounted to effect his release, with

15 Franjo Tudjman?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did Sasic have any role to play in those negotiations?

18 A. Yes, Mr. Sasic and Veljko Dzakula negotiated with Mr. Tudjman in

19 respect of the release of these people.

20 Q. Page 4, paragraph 7. You've mentioned Mr. Dzakula. How did his

21 views as to a peaceable or otherwise solution to developing problems

22 compare with those of Sasic? Was either of them connected to the man

23 Seselj?

24 A. Based on what I know, and I knew both of them, although I met

25 Mr. Dzakula only in 1992, but based on the relations between those two,

Page 12005

1 one could see that they were not supporting the same cause, namely,

2 Mr. Sasic was more radical in organising Serbs and putting up resistance

3 or, if I can say so, in the military sense, whereas Mr. Dzakula supported

4 a proposition that was prior to that affirmed by late Dr. Raskovic. That

5 was a peaceful solution, a democratic option that involved negotiating and

6 negotiating ad infinitum. At least, that's how he presented this position

7 to me. That was the difference between the two of them.

8 Q. And was the man Seselj ever seen in your area? If so, where and

9 with whom?

10 A. Yes. In October of 1991 -- I can't, Your Honours, remember the

11 exact time, but I'm sure it was either November or October of 1991, more

12 likely November, so Mr. Seselj was accompanied by Mr. Vukelic, Sasic, and

13 some other gentlemen, Bojcic, and I can't get -- say that -- those names.

14 So they were in Vocin. I saw them in Vocin.

15 Q. Deal with the progress of the SDP party and the SDS party. In

16 June of 1991, was there a decline in membership of the SDP party as

17 members migrated in the SDS party?

18 A. Yes. It is well known that in 1990, and this is usually pointed

19 out, at first democratic elections in Croatia, HDZ won the majority on the

20 republic level. However, in my area, in Slatina, in addition to SDP, HDZ

21 also participated in the elections. SDS did not exist yet at the time.

22 However, shortly thereafter, in May of 1990 or after May of 1990, after

23 the elections were completed, I'm not sure in what period, whether it was

24 late 1990 or early 1991, SDS was established in Slatina. And after that,

25 members of the SDP which were elected to the Assembly as members of the

Page 12006

1 SDP transferred into the SDS. And by doing that, they jeopardised the

2 SDP's majority in the Assembly.

3 If I understood you well, this is what you wanted me to explain.

4 Members of the SDP transferred into the SDS.

5 Q. Did that bring the HDZ to be in a position to appoint a government

6 commissioner for an interim administration, and was that man Ante Simara

7 who they appointed?

8 A. Yes, Mr. Ante Simara was appointed commissioner of the Croatian

9 government for Podravska Slatina municipality sometime in early June 1991

10 or late May 1991.

11 Q. And could you please just answer this question yes or no: Were a

12 number of leading Serbs dismissed from their positions by Ante Simara?

13 Just yes or no to that, please.

14 A. Yes?

15 MR. NICE: Can we now have the map exhibit which we're going to

16 look at on several occasions. We ask that this becomes tab 10 to the

17 existing Exhibit 326, for convenience. This is the original which is

18 actually a map, I take it marked by the witness himself. I hope it's been

19 folded in a way that will be convenient for you to look at the critical

20 part of it, which is Western Slavonia. We may need to open it out.

21 Here is the original for the Court's records. Thank you very

22 much. And can one go on the overhead projector for the witness. If you

23 have any troubles about folding it, bring it to me and I'll fold it for

24 you.

25 Q. This is a map, C-060, that I think you've marked yourself,

Page 12007

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 12008

1 correct, and you've marked it in the various ways that we're going to look

2 at later. What does the area surrounded in orange or red reflect?

3 A. This area that I'm about to show now, this orange line, indicates

4 municipalities of Novska, Pakrac, Daruvar, Grubisno Polje, Virovitica

5 Podravska Slatina, Orahovica, Pozega, and Novo Gradiska.

6 Q. And what was that area?

7 A. This area represents, in fact, Western Slavonia. I forgot to

8 mention including part of Novska near Jasenovac.

9 Q. If we can have just a little more of the top right-hand corner of

10 that bit shown so that people can see Podravska Slatina. Although this is

11 Western Slavonia, as you've told us, Podravska Slatina was never taken by

12 the Serbs and remained in Croat hands; is that correct?

13 A. Yes. Not only Podravska Slatina but also Virovitica and Grubisno

14 Polje and Orahovica. I'm now referring to towns, the towns

15 themselves, they were not occupied.

16 Q. Yes. Despite those limitations, was the autonomous area of

17 Western Slavonia formed and held its first session, I think, on the 30th

18 of October of 1991?

19 A. Yes. On the 30th of October, 1991, the first constituent Assembly

20 of Western Slavonia was held.

21 Q. These are matters of record so I lead them: Veljko Vukelic was

22 president of the Assembly. Veljko Dzakula was president of the

23 government; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. We'll come back to this map because you've marked other things on

Page 12009

1 it, and perhaps just leave it on the overhead projector for the time

2 being. Thank you very much.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Sorry Mr. Nice. Your Honours, this will be marked

4 Exhibit 326, tab 10.C-060.

5 MR. NICE:

6 Q. From its creation, did Western Slavonia have links with Belgrade

7 through the man Sasic and others?

8 A. Yes, of course.

9 Q. What offices did it maintain in Belgrade, and what did those

10 offices reveal about the nature of the relationship between Western

11 Slavonia and Belgrade?

12 A. Your Honours, the office of Western Slavonia in Belgrade, that is

13 how it was called, the bureau or the office, according to my knowledge,

14 especially acquired later, and I assume he held this position earlier on,

15 had the role of coordination, assistance, activities, and needs of the

16 people from Western Slavonia and those who were asking for assistance.

17 They organised and synchronised that aid and dispatched it in the

18 direction of Western Slavonia regardless of the kind of aid in question.

19 Q. Can you give an example of aid, in particular, oil provided by

20 NIS, Naftna Industria of Serbia?

21 A. Regarding the Serbian oil industry, NIS, that was a relationship

22 with the Republic of Serbian Krajina which had its office in Belgrade as a

23 liaison with several ministries to meet the most essential needs. What I

24 know of is the Ministry of Defence, Ministry of Justice. And as for the

25 oil industry of Serbia, it supplied the people and organisations in

Page 12010

1 Krajina, in Belgrade, or, rather, within the territory of Serbia, and most

2 probably sent some oil, at least I know that a part of the oil that

3 reached Slavonia came through the NIS, the oil industry of Serbia.

4 Q. To what extent was the currency or financial system of the RSK,

5 let alone just Western Slavonia, integrated with Yugoslavia's currency and

6 financial systems?

7 A. As you know, we are talking about 1991, when throughout the

8 territory of the former Yugoslavia, dinar was the means of payment, the

9 currency. So with respect to monetary issues, all the former republics in

10 those days used the dinar, and so did Western Slavonia, that is, the

11 Republic of Serbian Krajina. However, Western Slavonia itself as a part

12 of the Republic of Srpska Krajina was later tied up within a subsystem on

13 the basis of this currency, that is the dinar, which means that it had to

14 be directly controlled and managed by the National Bank of Yugoslavia.

15 Q. To a couple of matters of your own military experience before we

16 look at the military position on the ground at the relevant times. Until

17 1991, armed forces of Yugoslavia were divided between the JNA and the

18 Territorial Defence, I think each republic having its own Territorial

19 Defence. Would that be correct?

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. The build-up to the events with which we are concerned, was there

22 a migration of Croat soldiers from the JNA into either the Croat

23 Territorial Defence or into paramilitary units?

24 A. Yes. That was common knowledge.

25 Q. And so far as Serb soldiers were concerned, what was their

Page 12011

1 migration or movement; similar?

2 A. No. The Serbs, as a rule, did not leave the JNA. As for Serb

3 reservists, those who were not directly active in the JNA, they formed

4 territorial units in the areas in which the Serbs constituted the majority

5 population.

6 Q. What, if any, financial support, and from whom, did those units

7 get?

8 A. If you're referring to Territorial Defence units, members of those

9 units of the Territorial Defence, the Serbs, received salaries in the form

10 of compensation for military exercises. That is the official name.

11 Q. And salaries were paid by whom?

12 A. The salaries for Western Slavonia were paid by the rear or

13 logistics body of the command of the 5th Corps in Banja Luka.

14 Q. We'll come to that corps in a second or a few minutes. In Slatina

15 itself, was there a part of the Territorial Defence that was trained and

16 equipped by the JNA?

17 A. Yes. It's a specific institution which needs to be clarified.

18 Namely, there were simultaneously two forms of Territorial Defence. One

19 at the level of each republic and, consequently, at the level of each

20 municipality. And another part of the Territorial Defence were units that

21 were filled in for the needs of the JNA, and they came from several

22 municipalities. Reservists were recruited from various municipalities to

23 form a unit.

24 Specifically, the unit that I was in consisted of reservists like

25 me from my municipality, and we formed a unit together with members of

Page 12012

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 12013

1 such a unit from Orahovica and Nasice, and we formed a brigade in that

2 way. That unit had active officers in command as opposed to the other

3 units in the municipalities. We were equipped, trained in the units and

4 in barracks of the JNA, that is, the professional JNA officers trained us,

5 whereas the Territorial Defence had its own training programmes, and they

6 organised themselves and their own training at municipality level.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 A. I don't know whether I have succeeded in conveying the difference.

9 Q. Thank you. Territorial Defence, paragraph 13. Looking at the

10 map, using the pointer, the Territorial Defence Main Staff of Western

11 Slavonia - these may be details the Judges will need when other evidence

12 comes in - was located where?

13 A. Just a moment, please. First of all, at the beginning, within the

14 territory of Pakrac municipality, in the village of Brusnik, which is

15 about six kilometres from Pakrac. And after that --

16 Q. I don't know if it's showing up.

17 A. Yes, I've shown it. No, the name is not indicated on the map but

18 the place exists, called Brusnik. And as I've just said, it is about five

19 or six kilometres from Pakrac.

20 Later on, the command or the Main Staff of the Territorial Defence

21 of Western Slavonia was located in Zvecevo, or to be more specific, in the

22 Zvecevo recreation centre, which is about ten kilometres from Vocin.

23 Q. And was there also present in a motel on top of a hill in

24 Omanovac, the command of a Banja Luka Corps unit?

25 A. Yes. Not far. Right here. Not far from this village of Brusnik

Page 12014

1 was the command of a brigade of the Banja Luka Corps.

2 Q. Dealing with the Main Staff of the Territorial Defence of Western

3 Slavonia - you can give all the names - but did any of them have active

4 JNA status?

5 A. With the exception of Colonel Trbojevic, no one had active

6 status. I mean those who previously performed those duties, no one except

7 for Colonel Trbojevic.

8 Q. And he took over when and remained in charge until when?

9 A. Sometime around the beginning of November, Colonel Trbojevic

10 arrived and took over the position of commander of the Main Staff of the

11 Territorial Defence for Western Slavonia, and he remained until the end,

12 and I'm referring to the exodus of the Serbs from the area. I am

13 referring to the municipalities of Daruvar, Slatina, right up to Pakrac.

14 So until mid-December he held that position.

15 Q. And his predecessors you've listed for us. It's probably a matter

16 of record. Were they Veljko Vukelic, Milan Loncar, Miso Petkovic before

17 Trbojevic took over?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did any of these have a nickname of Munja?

20 A. None of them, but Mr. Boro Lukic did have that nickname.

21 Q. We're going to come to him a little later. Can I turn then to

22 page 6, paragraphs 14 and subsequent.

23 There are, as you know, C-060, allegations of crimes committed in

24 Western Slavonia included in this indictment, but --

25 MR. NICE: And, Your Honour, I'll deal with this in part in open

Page 12015

1 and come back to the closed matters later.

2 Q. There's a village called Cetekovac. Can you point that out to the

3 Court, please, or its location. Again, it doesn't show --

4 A. Here it is, where my finger is, or I could describe the position.

5 Between the village of Balinci and Mikleus. You can see that on the map.

6 Q. The -- your knowledge of what happened there comes in various

7 sources but one of which is simply newspaper --

8 JUDGE MAY: There is some problem with Judge Robinson's monitor.

9 It has been going on for a week and it's time it was resolved. The

10 Registry really must resolve this problem.

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 JUDGE MAY: This is a matter that should be dealt with immediately

13 and not merely left. It's nothing to do with any of the parties, of

14 course, but it's the organisation of the court.

15 MR. NICE: I don't know if the far wing monitor is any better. We

16 can imagine ourselves as an appellate court for a couple of sessions. And

17 it's particularly unfortunate given that the map doesn't actually contain

18 all these very small villages, so they can't even be traced afterwards.

19 May I continue?

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

21 MR. NICE:

22 Q. One of the ways you -- C-060, one of the ways you learned of what

23 happened in Cetekovac is through newspapers? Just yes or no.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. At the time of these events, of which the Judges will hear from

Page 12016

1 other witnesses, who was in charge on the ground from your own personal

2 knowledge?

3 A. According to my knowledge, Mr. Boro Lukic, Boro Radosavljevic, and

4 Mr. Rajko Bojcic were responsible.

5 Q. Perhaps you'd just remind the Judges of their particular positions

6 at the time of the September 1991 alleged crimes.

7 A. This period or, rather, this incident coincides with the time I

8 arrived to the area of Vocin, and I didn't know the exact positions they

9 held, but from what I did know, I gathered that all three were in the

10 staff of the Territorial Defence of Slatina municipality in a staff that

11 numbered eight to ten persons, that within the framework of that staff was

12 both the military and the civilian component, and that that staff had

13 command over those units or the activities of some of those units, if any.

14 And the same applies to this incident in Cetekovac.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. NICE: Your Honours, I'll come back to the balance of

17 paragraphs 14 and 16 if and when I'm granted a further private session.

18 Q. Paragraph 17. Was Vojislav Seselj seen in the area of Vocin, of

19 which we know you are in a position to give some information. Vocin, the

20 Chamber will see, south and west of Podravska Slatina at effectively a

21 crossroads, as it were.

22 Was Vojislav Seselj seen in that area at about the end of October

23 or beginning of November? If so, with whom?

24 A. Yes. I have already mentioned Your Honours, that again I can't

25 tell you exactly whether it was October or November, but I think more

Page 12017

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 12018

1 probably beginning of November, I saw Mr. Vojislav Seselj together with

2 Mr. Sasic, Veljko Vukelic, Bojcic, and some other gentlemen whose names I

3 either cannot recollect just now or whom I didn't know. In Vocin, of

4 course.

5 Q. Did he go to any other locations that you can remember on the same

6 day?

7 A. Yes. I heard that he visited Mijokovicevo, which is now called

8 Djulovac, and afterwards he went to Okucani. That was on his way back,

9 but he stopped there for a while, allegedly.

10 Q. And this time, just yes or no: Was there any evidence to suggest

11 the presence in the area of a paramilitary group known as the White

12 Eagles? Yes just or no.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I'll come back to that later as well. Paragraph 18. While you

15 were still in the area, were four Croat civilians killed in Vocin in or

16 around the 7th of December?

17 A. Yes. I was in Vocin up until the 8th of December, and on the 7th

18 of December I heard that they had disappeared. But I didn't know at the

19 time that they had been killed.

20 Q. I'll return to the details of that a little later. Under the

21 heading "Vocin" is the particular offences, or are the particular offences

22 alleged in respect of that location. Before the date of the 13th of

23 December linked to the killings in Vocin, had you, in November 1991, seen

24 something happening at the house of the family Matanci, later to be

25 involved as victims in the killings?

Page 12019

1 A. Yes. Around the second half of November, closer to the end of

2 November, I was accompanying a friend of mine home, and in front of the

3 Matanci house or, rather, 100 metres prior to that house, we encountered

4 three volunteers. We may not have paid any attention, but there were few

5 passersby at that time of day, and we simply came across some men that we

6 knew were volunteers, but we didn't know who they belonged to, neither I

7 nor the lady I was accompanying.

8 When 100 metres later we reached the Matanci house, we saw

9 something unusual. All the lights were lit in this house, and usually, as

10 there was no electricity, people used candles, so the light was discreet.

11 And it was only an hour later, or maybe even less, we heard noises, we

12 came out of the house, and we saw the house was on fire. So I was

13 convinced that those three volunteers had most probably started the fire.

14 It was very hard to link anyone to this in view of the circumstances at

15 the time which I was very familiar with.

16 These gentlemen, and I inquired about them, this Matanci elderly

17 family members were not there. They had gone somewhere else. I later

18 heard that they had been killed on the 13th of December.

19 Q. And does that date coincide to some degree with the departure of

20 Serb forces from the area? If so, can you describe the media output that

21 was associated with that departure of forces?

22 A. First of all, Your Honours, I need to explain the situation in

23 Vocin itself.

24 JUDGE MAY: I'm sure you do, but could you please concentrate on

25 the question which counsel -- he'll have a reason for asking it, and could

Page 12020

1 you answer, please, as shortly as possible. I know you're trying to help

2 us as much as possible, but our time is fairly short.

3 Perhaps, Mr. Nice, you could deal with the question again.

4 MR. NICE: Yes. I'll break it up into two parts.

5 Q. Does the date of the killings -- the alleged killings of the

6 Matanci family and others coincide with the departure of Serb forces to

7 some degree?

8 A. Yes. Yes, it does coincide.

9 Q. That departure was associated with output on probably two sides.

10 Can you say something about the media output that was associated with or

11 led to the departure of Serb forces?

12 A. The media announced that strong forces of the Croatian army and

13 police were heading towards that area. This was carried by the Serbian

14 media which added to the general psychosis, and they didn't need much for

15 the people as a whole to abandon the area, and that is what happened.

16 Q. Did Colonel Trbojevic take any part in the communication of -- or

17 the communications that were in the media?

18 A. Colonel Trbojevic comes from a small place next to Vocin. That is

19 where he was born. And he is said to have set the whole thing in motion.

20 At least, that is what the population there believes, that Mr. Trbojevic

21 set in motion the villagers of his village, and this had a chain reaction

22 effect on the other neighbouring villages, including Vocin.

23 Q. You learnt something of what may have happened at Vocin when the

24 Matancis and others were killed. Before we can ask you to tell the Judges

25 about it, you must give us an account of your sources of knowledge. Did

Page 12021

1 you learn things from residents in the area? Just yes or no.

2 A. Yes. Yes.

3 Q. Were those residents themselves, according to what they told you,

4 firsthand observers of what happened or were they themselves recounting to

5 you what had been told to them?

6 A. No. They were eyewitnesses, firsthand observers.

7 Q. In the course of what you were told, did you learn something about

8 people with the name of Simic? If so, what was the nature of your

9 information, firsthand eyewitnesses or not?

10 A. Yes. I learnt from people who had allegedly recognised them that

11 it was two young men from the Simic family.

12 Q. Very well. And then finally, did you learn something about

13 somebody called Ivanovic? And again, if so, what was the source of your

14 information? Was it firsthand eyewitness or not?

15 A. Yes. From people who knew them, because they come from

16 neighbouring villages, the Ivanovics, do.

17 MR. NICE: Your Honours, in those circumstances, I'd ask that the

18 witness may give his account. It's quite short.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

20 MR. NICE:

21 Q. Could you tell us then, please, what you learned of what happened

22 in this attack in Vocin.

23 A. Your Honours, this is what it was about: On that day, the 13th of

24 December, the entire population from 22 villages around Vocin withdrew.

25 So both the civilians and the soldiers. And they went in the direction of

Page 12022

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 12023

1 Zvecevo or Kamensko or Pakrac and further on towards Bosnia.

2 On that occasion, according to what I had heard from the

3 eyewitnesses themselves, a series of killings took place of Croat

4 civilians in Vocin, and this happened in one particular area, that is to

5 say along the road they were moving on, the soldiers and civilians, when

6 they were withdrawing. So that this is from the direction, if I were to

7 indicate this on the map to you, from the village of Liscine across Vocin,

8 that part of the road, and then through the main street in Vocin onwards

9 towards Djedovica or, rather, towards the centre of Vocin. It was in that

10 area, according to what I learnt, that most of them or almost all those

11 civilians were killed; in the yards, in front of the houses, and some in

12 the houses as well where they had stopped off, as far as I was able to

13 gather, the volunteers, because somebody had to point out whose house it

14 was.

15 So this was documented later on. But the first version that I

16 heard was the one I heard from the people who were withdrawing, that is to

17 say, who were in an exodus from Bosnia towards Serbia. And later on when

18 I meet some of these people, they bear out that version, the people who

19 had lived through all of that and seen it all happen, seen the particulars

20 and details of that crime.

21 Q. And then finally - we'll move on after this - the role of the two

22 members of the family Simic, if particularised, and the role of somebody

23 called Ivanovic.

24 A. Yes. A large portion of those crimes are ascribed to, especially

25 on the road from the village of Popovac towards the centre of Vocin, that

Page 12024

1 a group of masked individuals recognised by the locals nonetheless even if

2 they were masked, and they were members of the Simic family from Vocin and

3 the Ivanovic family from Popovac. Allegedly, these people had gone into

4 the courtyards when they saw members of the Croatian or, rather, when they

5 saw Croats, started shooting at them and killed them off in the yards.

6 That was the information that I received from some of the locals, the

7 local inhabitants who either saw this happen or, rather, recognised some

8 of the perpetrators.

9 Q. Thank you. Paragraph 22. Following the withdrawal of Serbs, were

10 many Serb males in the Vocin area arrested by Croats in respect of the

11 massacre, the massacre being of some 40 people, you understood?

12 A. Yes; all of them.

13 Q. And as you understood it, how were they treated by the Croatian

14 police?

15 A. Well, I have to say that the Croatian police force and the

16 judiciary had violated all the codes of conduct in their treatment of

17 these people. They behaved towards them very cruelly, inhumanely.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. NICE: Your Honour, we're moving to Okucani. I have got quite

20 a lot of private-session material stored up for completion, but I'm quite

21 happy to press on until, say, ten to one and deal with it all then if

22 that's not inconvenient to the Chamber.

23 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

24 MR. NICE:

25 Q. You moved locations effectively, and we'll be looking at another

Page 12025

1 part of the territory as from December. I needn't trouble with paragraph

2 24, I think, save perhaps just for this: On the topic of volunteers

3 working in the territory generally, did General Vukovic ever say something

4 to you about the value or need for volunteers in part of the territory?

5 A. Yes. General Vukovic, at my request that a group of volunteers

6 from Ribnjak, Vrbovljani, be displaced and they should leave the economic

7 facilities for them to be able to function, he said to leave it alone,

8 that I shouldn't raise the matter again.

9 Q. Did he say anything about the need for volunteers or who needed

10 them?

11 A. Yes. He happened to mention that as volunteers were needed, that

12 they had some assignments and work to do, he didn't speak in any concrete

13 terms, but quite obviously they were needed by the 5th Corps.

14 Q. On the map, please, can you point out Okucani for us.

15 A. Okucani is located here, where I am indicating on the map. It is

16 on the motorway between Novska and Nova Gradiska, equidistant to the two,

17 or, rather, 15 kilometres before you get to the Sava River and Bosanska

18 Gradiska.

19 Q. Did you learn of any intelligence work being done by security

20 officers from Okucani about December 1991 and where they were sending

21 their intelligence?

22 A. Yes, there was a group of officers in Okucani, and the

23 intelligence work was linked to them, as it's called, the terminology

24 used. And this was a publicly known secret. And on the basis of the work

25 I did later on, I knew a little bit about this in greater detail.

Page 12026

1 MR. NICE: Your Honour, there's only one documentary exercise that

2 I want to go through with this witness. It relates to an existing and

3 very substantial exhibit, Exhibit 327, and rather than ask you to work

4 your way through that exhibit, we've extracted copies of the relevant

5 pages which we present as separate exhibits to you through this witness,

6 and I hope that would be more convenient. And we can deal with it, I

7 think, quite quickly.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kay.

9 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I'm looking at the summary here provided by

10 the Prosecution where they go through the exhibits with the tabs. It's on

11 page 9. And you'll see the first one that would be referred to is Exhibit

12 327, tab 13, attachment 57, and there's an issue here as to whether this

13 witness could properly speak of such a document as this. There seem to be

14 doubts about the authenticity of the document in the first place and the

15 context of the document itself.

16 JUDGE MAY: According to the summary, he was shown extracts of the

17 list. So he can comment on that, presumably.

18 MR. KAY: Yes. The issue that really needs to be taken in mind,

19 in my submission here, is really the issue of the truth of the document or

20 the contents of it.

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, perhaps we better hear from Mr. Nice how

22 he proposes to deal with it.

23 MR. KAY: From looking through the page, that issue, in my view,

24 perhaps reproduces itself.

25 MR. NICE: Your Honour, there are a number of different issues

Page 12027

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

Page 12028

1 arising from this document, but the first one, which deals with the

2 identity of Boro Lukic as Munja, has already been covered by the witness,

3 and indeed attachment 57, which is said to be illegible in the English

4 version, is in fact legible in the B/C/S version and the signature is

5 there to be seen but we needn't trouble with that one, I think. So we can

6 go straight to what is described as tab 13, attachment 58, and apparently

7 that should be attachment 57 as well. And if we can just look at that.

8 That's the list of Territorial Defence. The witness's comment on it is

9 forecast in the summary, and there's the reference there to a particular

10 person whose name you can see, and the point there is a simple point

11 that's made.

12 JUDGE MAY: I suppose the objection is to comments such as, "May

13 be authentic."

14 MR. NICE: Yes. The witness has seen these documents and has

15 expressed views about them, and probably the questioning there will --

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'll say, Mr. Nice, that on the other hand, it

19 does show how familiar he is with the document that he feels sufficiently

20 confident to identify parts as being authentic and others as not

21 authentic.

22 MR. NICE: It may be the context that gives his ability to say

23 that. And of course, lack of authenticity may be favourable to the

24 accused. So it's not something that we could in any sense not draw to

25 your attention.

Page 12029

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes, Mr. Kay.

2 MR. KAY: I'm wondering whether using documents in this way

3 through the witness to produce the documents when he's just commenting on

4 well, it may be authentic, it may be not, I know of these names, whether

5 then producing the material as an exhibit when he can recognise names

6 makes the document admissible. He can tell you the names anyway, and it

7 doesn't need a document there with him telling the names to make the

8 document valid within the case. That's the way I see it.

9 JUDGE MAY: It's been admitted anyway.

10 MR. KAY: I agree with that, but --

11 JUDGE MAY: Well, why can't he -- if he's a member of a unit and

12 documents are produced with apparently what is said to be lists on a unit,

13 he must be entitled to comment on it. It's not the same position where

14 you have a witness who has no connection with a unit or anything of the

15 sort being asked to comment.

16 Would it not be better to hear his evidence and see what the

17 foundation is for his comments upon the various documents?

18 MR. KAY: Yes. I agree with that. Yes.

19 MR. NICE: Your Honour is, in our respectful submission, quite

20 right. The documents are already exhibits, and it's quite standard for a

21 witness to be allowed to make comments on already produced documents. And

22 lack of authenticity, as I've indicated, may actually be favourable to the

23 accuse.

24 Can we deal with the documents? We go then first to what is

25 incorrectly described as -- I can omit the first one. The second one is

Page 12030

1 incorrectly described as attachments -- I'm sorry. The Chamber already

2 has the first two. If the Chamber's -- can we lay before the witness,

3 please, the document that is not attachment 58 but attachment 57. It's a

4 list. No. It's the list. Can we have a look at that, please.

5 Q. The first two names on this list are Lukic Borivoj, and you've --

6 and then Vojnica Brar [sic]. What can you say about those two?

7 A. Well, I can say that both of them are from Slatina and that I know

8 both of them.

9 Q. And I said "Brar"; it's Branko Vojnica, I think. Of what party

10 was he a member, and what position did he hold?

11 A. Branko Vojnica was a member of the SDP while I knew him. Later

12 on, in the Republic of Srpska Krajina, he became a member of the Radical

13 Party, and as such, he became a member of the parliament of the Republic

14 of Srpska Krajina and became president of parliament, if that's what you

15 meant.

16 Q. Thank you. Can we look at attachment 59, headed "Volunteers from

17 Serbia Special Unit." Perhaps we could put the English version on the

18 overhead projector, if you wouldn't mind.

19 What do you notice about the names here, please?

20 A. First of all, these surnames are not customary for my region, the

21 region I come from.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They're not very common around those

24 parts.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: This summary doesn't bind, but it does say in the

Page 12031

1 summary that he's able to identify some parts as -- or suspects some parts

2 to be a fabrication.

3 MR. NICE: I'll get him to deal with that.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let him tell us about that.

5 MR. NICE: I've started on this document. Shall I come back and

6 deal with that in a second?

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

8 MR. NICE:

9 Q. You were dealing with the unusual nature of these names or the way

10 in which they're not customary for your region.

11 A. Yes, that's right. Most of those names. But most of them

12 indicate -- actually, I can't recognise some of them as being from my

13 parts, that is to say from the region of Western Slavonia.

14 Q. Thank you. We'll go back, then, please -- I'm sorry to ask you to

15 do this, C-060, but we'll go back to attachment 57, if we can have a look

16 at that again. We know that you have expressed the view that there may be

17 parts of this document that are inaccurate. Can you explain -- or indeed

18 a fabrication. Can you explain to the Court, in answer to His Honour

19 Judge Robinson's particular query, why you have some doubts about the

20 accuracy or genuineness of this document.

21 A. As for this document, the one I'm looking at now --

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. -- I said about this document, and I say again to you, Your

24 Honours, that it is possible that it is relevant. And I say that for the

25 following reason: The Cyrillic script used -- actually, the Cyrillic

Page 12032

1 script was not used at all by members of the Croatian army or the civilian

2 organs. They do know it, of course, but that is why I have my suspicions.

3 And as we have a series of photocopies there, I said that they could be

4 authentic -- it could be authentic, although I've never seen it before

5 myself. But I'll take a look at the chronology in which this document was

6 written or, rather, the way in which it was written, the method observed

7 in writing it, and I said it could be an authentic one, because that is in

8 fact the way we compiled these documents. So that's why I said that it

9 could be an authentic document.

10 Q. So if I understand you correctly, the Cyrillic -- the use of the

11 Cyrillic script casts a doubt, but otherwise, the form of the document is

12 consistent with what you would expect.

13 A. Yes. Yes.

14 Q. May we look, then, next --

15 MR. NICE: If you take those away, Usher, please, if you'd be so

16 good.

17 Q. May we turn to attachment 62. Thank you very much. And two

18 points to be made on this. If we look at the first page, which is an

19 order.

20 MR. NICE: If you would be good enough to put that on the --

21 sorry. Would you place the English version on the overhead projector,

22 please, the one headed "Order."

23 Q. This reads: "Pursuant to the requirements and plans of the

24 Autonomous Region of Western Slavonia Main Staff, I order the forming of

25 regional departments of Vocin police station as follows," and the first

Page 12033

1 one is the Drenovac regional department and the second is Zvecevo regional

2 department. So here we have the creation by the Main Staff of police

3 regional departments.

4 Any comment that you would like to make on that, please, C-060?

5 A. Well, yes. Your Honours, I mentioned that at the very beginning,

6 the Territorial Defence staff of Podravska Slatina combined the military

7 and civilian component, and this just bears that out. It confirms that

8 observation, because the nomination of civilian police -- of the civilian

9 police force belongs to the civilian area department, whereas it was the

10 staff that did it in this case.

11 Q. The second part of the same attachment, headed "HQ of the

12 Territorial Defence Requisition," incorporates requisition for gas masks

13 and water purification pills and so on, is signed by Borivoj

14 Radosavljevic, commander of the Territorial Defence. What does this tell

15 us about the supply of equipment, please?

16 A. It tells us that the Municipal Staff of the Territorial Defence of

17 Podravska Slatina made a list of what they required, the Main Staff of the

18 SAO Western Slavonia, asking them for this type of equipment against any

19 noxious matter, chemical devices, et cetera. Biological poisons, et

20 cetera. They wanted gas masks, personal decontamination equipment, et

21 cetera.

22 Q. And finally - and this is the only substantial documentary

23 exercise with this witness the Court will be pleased to know - is

24 attachment 65, which is a transcript of an intercept, apparently between

25 Western Slavonia headquarters and Slatina Territorial Defence. I'm not

Page 12034

1 going to go through the content of it. In the English version, Your

2 Honours will find on lines 85 - because the lines always cover the names -

3 Milenko Stankovic; on line 96, Captain Kulic; and on line 108, Milan

4 Trbojevic.

5 What, C-060, can you tell us about those names insofar as they

6 appear on this coded radio communication that had been apparently obtained

7 and included in this overall document?

8 A. Well, I recognise the name of Milenko Stankovic, and in this

9 document, he's asking when he can collect the rest of the money. I know

10 that he took the money for members of the Territorial Defence. He was

11 carrying the money for the Slatina region. [redacted]

12 [redacted]. There was no reason or need for me, nor did I ever --

13 Q. We'll move on to the next one, please. Colonel Trbojevic.

14 A. As for Trbojevic, he was the commander of the Territorial Defence

15 staff for Western Slavonia, Colonel Trbojevic.

16 Q. Thank you very much. Very well.

17 MR. NICE: Your Honour, we won't have time to deal with all the

18 closed session material, or private session material now. I'll move on to

19 the Territorial Defence at Slatina.

20 JUDGE MAY: I think probably after the adjournment.

21 MR. NICE: Thank you very much.

22 JUDGE MAY: Witness C-060, we're going to adjourn now until half

23 past two. Would you be back then to continue your evidence. Could you

24 remember in this and any other adjournments there may be during your

25 evidence not to speak to anybody about it until it's over, and that does

Page 12035

1 include the members of the Prosecution team.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

3 JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn.

4 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

Page 12036

1 --- On resuming at 2.32 p.m.

2 MR. NICE: May the witness have the map, please. Thank you.

3 Q. Matters of detail that we can do quite swiftly. The Territorial

4 Defence for Slatina was located in Lager Sekulinci, I think, which you can

5 point out for us, until mid-October when it moved to Sekulinci.

6 A. Yes. It's right here.

7 Q. So that's outside --

8 A. Around here. It -- the name is not written, but not far from

9 Vocin.

10 Q. And so, therefore, it's outside Slatina itself which, as you've

11 told us, remained in Croat hands. And I think the original Slatina staff

12 consisted of how many members, increasing in November?

13 A. I think it had eight members but could be more. I am not sure of

14 the exact details, but I knew of eight members.

15 Q. Then Boro Lukic, Munja, was commander until the 30th of September,

16 1991, and I think he then left, going where?

17 A. Yes. He went with a unit to Zvecevo.

18 Q. Thank you. He was replaced by Boro Radosavljevic until the 15th

19 of December, 1991.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What was the attitude of either or both of those men towards

22 people who weren't members of the SDS by the end of 1991?

23 A. They distrusted them. I wouldn't say it was exactly hostile, but

24 sort of uneasy, uncomfortable.

25 Q. And then finally dealing with Ceralije, remind us again on the map

Page 12037

1 where that is.

2 A. Here.

3 Q. Thank you. The commander from the 1st of October until the 1st of

4 November was who?

5 A. Mr. Dragomir Keleuva.

6 Q. And then he was replaced by?

7 A. He was replaced by Rajko Bojcic.

8 Q. Thank you. The Territorial Defence units subordinated to the

9 Territorial Defence general command were located in various places, and

10 you can give an estimate of the number of men involved, and if you just

11 give us a number, that will help. I think we can move through this

12 quickly.

13 In Ceralije, how many men, approximately? And if you'd point it

14 out on the map as we go through them.

15 A. Ceralije, in addition to the town of Ceralije itself covered also

16 two other villages, so therefore, there were younger people, reservists of

17 the TO, and they were members of that unit of Ceralije. There were some

18 150 of them, I think.

19 Q. Then Macute, could you point that out and tell us just the figure.

20 A. Macute is here.

21 Q. How many --

22 A. Macute covered Smude village as well, and there were 80 people

23 there.

24 Q. Vocin, a larger place, how many reservists?

25 A. Vocin is here. In 1991, it had 1.000 inhabitants, and from the

Page 12038

1 information available to me, there were 200 reservists.

2 Q. Liscine or Liscine?

3 A. Liscine is completely to the west of Slatina municipality, right

4 here, some six or seven kilometres from Vocin. And this place had between

5 80 and 100 reservists together with Hum and Kuzma.

6 Q. Slatinski Drenovac.

7 A. Slatinski Drenovac is here, you can't really see it. Just a

8 minute, please. That belongs to Orahovica municipality. Drenovac is

9 right here by the border, indicated in black. That's why we can't see it

10 well.

11 Q. How many --

12 A. It belonged to Orahovica municipality. About 120, I think.

13 Q. Kokocak?

14 A. Kokocak is also located in Orahovica municipality, and it had some

15 40 to 60 reservists.

16 Q. I shan't bother with H, I and J unless I'm advised that I should.

17 I will move to paragraph 31. Thank you, Witness C-060. After the Vocin

18 massacre, did the Territorial Defence for the Autonomous Region of Western

19 Slavonia continue to exist in reality or not? If not, what happened to

20 the personnel who had been in it?

21 A. I've already tried to explain earlier that on the 13th of

22 December, there was a retreat, both of population and army from Vocin

23 area, and one of the consequences of uncontrolled behaviour was the

24 massacre that you mentioned. At any rate, after the 13th of December in

25 Vocin area, there were some Croats who remained there. And in the

Page 12039

1 surrounding villages, there were some elderly Serbs that remained, few of

2 them.

3 So on the 13th of December, both the population and the army, and

4 by this I mean members of the Territorial Defence, left.

5 Q. Thank you. You've told us largely about the supply of weapons and

6 ammunitions by the JNA, including through such sources as Sasic and how

7 the Territorial Defence had its own weapons from before the war. What

8 about the two parties, the SDS and the SRS? Did they have any part in

9 weapons and ammunitions or not?

10 A. Serbian Democratic Party, at least in the beginning, when it comes

11 to arming and the information that I gathered from the local population in

12 respect of procuring weapons and information I got from Mr. Sasic, also

13 involved some other people, most probably within the framework of the SDS

14 or some groups within the SDS. These people procured weapons.

15 As for the SRS, Serbian Radical Party, I couldn't tell you much

16 because, in Western Slavonia in that first period that we're talking

17 about, this party was established sometime in 1992 in Okucani.

18 Q. Paragraph 33. The Territorial Defence, as you tell us, was

19 subordinated to the JNA. What level of contact was there between the

20 Territorial Defence commander Vukelic and the JNA General Uzelac,

21 commander of the Banja Luka Corps?

22 A. Your Honours, I have to remind you here I have never once said

23 that the TO was subordinated to the JNA. I said that they had some links

24 between them, and I explained those links. And now when it comes to the

25 contact between Main Staff of Western Slavonia with the command of the 5th

Page 12040

1 Corps in Banja Luka, specifically General Uzelac, it is quite clear from

2 the information available to me, gathered through my contacts with people

3 from the Territorial Defence, it was clear that that first commander,

4 Mr. Vukelic, liaised with General Uzelac.

5 Q. Very well. We'll deal with the balance of paragraph 33 in private

6 session.

7 Can we deal with JNA garrisons in the area of Western Slavonia.

8 It's on your map, and you've marked it, I think, in orange circles.

9 Page 12 of the summary, and I'm not going to go through these

10 details in any detail unless I'm advised that there's some particular

11 there that I ought to go through.

12 JUDGE MAY: No.

13 MR. NICE:

14 Q. But we can see, looking at the map, starting at the top, that

15 there was a garrison at Virovitica.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And I think that was mixed artillery unit with many soldiers. And

18 was it subordinated to the Zagreb military district, General Spegelj,

19 later General Raseta?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Slatina itself we can see. Thank you very much. A small unit

22 with -- tasked with border control, mainly Serb soldiers, subordinated to

23 the Varazdin Corps whose commander was General Trifunovic?

24 A. Yes, exactly so.

25 Q. We can hear the details of what happened to him if it becomes

Page 12041

1 relevant. C, Pozega, down to the south, or Pozega, probably. About 300

2 mainly Serb soldiers, a mixed artillery unit, armoured vehicles. Part of

3 the Sarajevo -- I beg your pardon. Subordinated to the command of the

4 Tuzla Corps and part of the Sarajevo military district, commanded by

5 General Kukanjac.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Nasice garrison, 60 kilometres east of Zvecevo. You can point

8 that out for us. Thank you very much.

9 A. Yes. I'm pointing it right now.

10 Q. Thank you very much. 60 to 70 mainly Serb soldiers, armoured

11 vehicles, and some other equipment. Subordinated to Sarajevo military

12 district under General Kukanjac. The commander of the garrison, Captain

13 Dragojevic?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Daruvar to the west. A small garrison with a large warehouse. A

16 large number of Serb soldiers reduced to 20. Under the command of Colonel

17 Maric and subordinated to the Zagreb military district. And the

18 equipment there belonged to the Jan Ziska Brigade; correct? Thank you.

19 That's Daruvar. Thank you very much.

20 A. It belonged.

21 Q. Yes.

22 JUDGE MAY: The transcript seems to be rather odd, line 80. Or

23 rather, 2, page 80, but it can be no doubt put right.

24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nice, just one moment. I don't think I follow it

25 in full. The witness is not assisting only in the geography matters.

Page 12042

1 He's giving evidence in garrison matters; is it right?

2 MR. NICE: These are garrison -- that's right.

3 JUDGE KWON: He's familiar --

4 MR. NICE: He --

5 JUDGE KWON: So why don't you make it clearer. I think he's just

6 helping the geographical matters. That's not the case.

7 MR. NICE: No, it's not just the geography. He's giving the

8 location of the various garrisons of the JNA when may become relevant when

9 you look at the crimes on the ground and you need to know where they were

10 and roughly how strong they were, that's all. And he is familiar with

11 them and can give his evidence himself.

12 JUDGE KWON: If you can clarify how he came to know of those kind

13 of things.

14 MR. NICE: Private session.

15 JUDGE KWON: Oh, yes.

16 MR. NICE:

17 Q. Paramilitaries. Witness C-060, paragraph 36. Did you ever

18 identify any paramilitaries of Frenki Simatovic's unit?

19 A. No. I did not recognise them. However, that in itself is not

20 very meaningful because not all of the information was available to me

21 anyway. I was not in a position to have to know all that.

22 Q. In October 1991, were you aware of volunteers in Ceralije

23 connected to a particular party and a particular individual?

24 A. Yes. I met in the TO command or, rather, I -- Commander Dragomir

25 Keleuva pointed them out to me and introduced me to them. I guess he

Page 12043

1 wanted to show off or something like that. I saw them in his presence,

2 and I read a document which categorised them as such, as volunteers from

3 Serbia.

4 Q. And the document that you saw, did it connect them with any other

5 provider or any particular individual providing volunteers, and did the

6 document say to whom these volunteers were subordinated?

7 A. That kind of approach to Mr. Keleuva prompted me out to ask him

8 how were they identified. It was quite dangerous for us there, to have

9 people come to that area and not be under anybody's control. And then he

10 showed me that certificate that I just mentioned to you through which I

11 could see that those volunteers were mobilised in Belgrade, that they were

12 mobilised by Serbian Radical Party. That document also contained a

13 confirmation that they were subordinated to the Territorial Defence in the

14 territory of Western Slavonia, and there was also a name of their leader,

15 the man who led that group of 17 people. I did not retain that name. I

16 didn't come frequently across that name anyway. However, I saw him on two

17 or three occasions, and I would be able to recognise him.

18 Q. Very well. In paragraph 37 of the summary, there's reference to

19 another name, the name Radovan Novacic. Is that possibly the same man or

20 is that a different man?

21 A. Yes. The name -- the last name certainly, and the first name

22 possibly do sound like the name of the leader of that group.

23 Q. Was it the leader of that group who sought assistance from you in

24 relation to matters of training?

25 A. No. Commander Keleuva asked me to do something with that group.

Page 12044

1 However, I refused that possibility because I was sent to do other tasks,

2 and therefore, it wasn't within the scope of my responsibility to do

3 anything with the army.

4 Q. Was this group wearing JNA uniforms or not?

5 A. No. No, they didn't. Not uniforms and not insignia either.

6 Q. I'll come back to the balance of 36 in a minute. What insignia

7 did the volunteers have that you saw?

8 A. Some volunteers had no insignia at all. However, a number of them

9 had an all-Serb coat of arms emblem on their hats.

10 Q. Did you hear anything about the White Eagles being present, and if

11 so, where and at whose control?

12 A. Yes. I heard that in the Vocin area there was a group of

13 volunteers called White Eagles. However, I personally didn't come across

14 them. I probably in fact did, but I wouldn't be able to distinguish them.

15 They were under the control of the Main Staff of Territorial Defence in

16 Zvecevo.

17 Q. Very well. Colonel Trbojevic, who we've heard of, his attitude

18 towards the use of volunteers was what?

19 A. I met Colonel Trbojevic, and I knew him. However, I don't know

20 what his position was regarding this. However, I know for certain that he

21 was in charge of commanding these volunteers. So they were subordinated

22 to the Main Staff of the Territorial Defence of Western Slavonia.

23 Q. If we -- one other matter on this type of person. In November 91

24 at that place now called Djulovac - originally Mijokovicevo - in the

25 vicinity of Vocin, were you aware of some volunteers there from Vojvodina?

Page 12045

1 A. I learned of it later by accident through information received at

2 the staff in Vocin that I belonged to. I learned that there was a group

3 of volunteers in Mijokovicevo who were under the command of Colonel

4 Trbojevic and came with him from Novi Sad.

5 Q. We've now then got the garrisons and the incidents of volunteers

6 of which you are aware. Can you turn to the map, please, again. You've

7 marked on the map, this time in orange lines, the deployment, I think, of

8 the JNA in Western Slavonia by around the 8th of January, 1992. Can you

9 explain that for us, please.

10 A. When it comes to the presence of the units of the JNA in Western

11 Slavonia, I have to say, Your Honours, that those were units of the Banja

12 Luka Corps which were in Pakrac municipality in Novska and Nova Gradiska

13 municipalities, too. It is indicated by yellow lines here on the map

14 that you can see right here under the word "Pakrac." There is Lipik here

15 and then Pakrac, and then to the west, to the Psunj Mountain and to the

16 south towards this area where it says Nova Gradiska, and also to the left,

17 to the west towards Novska municipality. So this triangle that I

18 indicated here and as is marked on the map?

19 MR. NICE: Your Honours, I'm trying to save some time, if I can.

20 It's -- yes. We better have a look at it. Can he have a look, please, at

21 Exhibit 327, tab 24, separately copied. If we can lay the English version

22 on the overhead so that those of you can see.

23 Q. This is a document that you haven't seen separately of being

24 prepared as a witness, I think. It's dated the 16th of October, to the

25 staff of Western Slavonia. And I think the position is, although you have

Page 12046

1 not seen the document before, there are various names on it that you can

2 recognise; is that correct?

3 A. Yes. I do see here --

4 Q. So that on the first page --

5 A. I see some names here, yes.

6 Q. So on the first page, Zarkovic Krsta?

7 A. Zarkovic Krsta. Cakmak Rade.

8 Q. Commander Vezmar Jovo?

9 A. Vezmar Jovo.

10 Q. And on the third page, Miso Petkovic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And these are names present here in a way that suggests to you

13 that the document may be authentic, I believe.

14 A. Yes, it could be authentic. However, as far as this document is

15 concerned, I see it for the first time but it is true that I know some of

16 the names of people mentioned here.

17 Q. Jovo Vezmar, who is he?

18 A. Jovo Vezmar was chief of police in Pakrac before the war and

19 during the war. He was commander of the TO staff at the very beginning.

20 Q. You say that he was commander of the TO staff at the beginning.

21 Did he spend any of his time elsewhere than in this region? Did he spend

22 any of his time back in Serbia?

23 A. Yes. Jovo Vezmar was there at the beginning, and as far as I

24 know, he didn't come back again. After the end of 1991, he didn't come

25 again.

Page 12059

1 the time, the Serbs did not express some tendencies that one could

2 characterise as nationalistic?

3 A. I was not a member of political parties at the time. I was

4 dealing with a quite complex task at the time. However, I know that one

5 could publicly hear that Serbs assembled around the newly established

6 Serbian Democratic Party that was involved in the elections. In 1995, the

7 late Dr. Raskovic was at the helm of that party, and this is how it was

8 portrayed by the media in Croatia when they described the activities of

9 Serbs in Croatia.

10 Q. All right. But based on what you said and based on what others

11 said and what I think that I know from that period of time, it seems that

12 Professor Jovan Raskovic was quite a categorical supporter of the peaceful

13 option.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And that -- and I think you know this well, too: Serbia also

16 supported this view that problems ought to be solved in a peaceful way.

17 A. Based on the attitude and views of political leadership of Serbia,

18 it would be difficult for me to give more specific answers regarding that

19 period, especially when it comes to Serbs from Croatia.

20 Q. All right. You said this morning that the Serb Democratic Party

21 did not participate in the elections in Slatina in 1990.

22 A. Yes, that's right. It did not participate.

23 Q. And in Eastern Slavonia, in Banija, in Kordun or, rather, in the

24 largest part populated by Serbs, they mostly, in those first elections,

25 voted for the League of Communists of Croatia or, later on, for SDP.

Page 12060

1 A. Yes, that's what I said too.

2 Q. And based on my recollection and analysis of data that I looked

3 over, they even had 21 deputies in Croatian parliament based on those

4 lists and the SDP membership. Do you remember that data?

5 A. I don't know those figures. I don't know the exact figures.

6 However, I know that in the Croatian parliament the SDS had several

7 representatives.

8 Q. The SDS had several representatives but much fewer than when it

9 comes to the League of Communists and its Serb representatives in 1990; is

10 that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You said this morning that Serbs of the SDP later on started

13 transferring to the SDS. Do you know why they started doing that? Can

14 you briefly explain that in a sentence or two in order not to waste time?

15 A. Yes, I can. It was quite simple. The HDZ held power at the

16 republic level and the local authorities were most often inferior to them.

17 And probably because of that and because they wanted to protect the Serb

18 interest, they thought they would best do it in a -- in a national party.

19 Q. And what was it that you felt that Serb national rights were

20 threatened? Was it prior to the victory of HDZ in elections? Do you know

21 something about pressure being exerted against Serbs in the election

22 campaign before the elections and later on, how it developed later on?

23 A. In view of the fact that those were first democratic elections

24 held, many people were taken aback by the views expressed at the time, but

25 it is undoubted that in -- the national element came to surface more often

Page 12061

1 in public discussions.

2 Q. However, in view of the fact that Serbs opted for SDP, which had a

3 far greater number of Croat members, do you think that reason for that was

4 they expected that SDP's platform - and at the helm of the SDP at the time

5 was Ivica Racan - was that they expected the SDP to protect their minimal

6 rights? Do you think that was the reason?

7 A. I think that the Serbs believed in the SDP's platform and this is

8 why they voted for the SDP, and that probably also involved some of their

9 specific rights that they wanted to be protected.

10 Q. Why do you say their rights? Weren't those your rights as well?

11 A. Yes, those were my rights too.

12 Q. So I would have expected you to say "our rights," not "their

13 rights."

14 A. If you put specific questions to me, I will give you specific

15 answers.

16 Q. All right, Mr. C-060. After the elections, did the SDP provide

17 you, meaning Serbs from Croatia, any kind of protection of national

18 interest or did it provide national equality to you?

19 A. Obviously not.

20 Q. Is it true that the SDP or the former League of Communists of

21 Croatia, in the elections, supported secession from Yugoslavia and by

22 giving its support to the new constitution in fact supported the

23 second-rate status for Serbs and deprivation of Serbs of their statutes of

24 constituent nation; is that right?

25 A. Well, I wouldn't draw such generalisations. I don't know this

Page 12062

1 enough and I was not involved in political life in order to draw such

2 general conclusions. I know specifically what went on in my area. And if

3 I remember well, the area that you're describing now and putting questions

4 to me, I think that when it comes to nationalism, it was quite strong in

5 other areas other than Croatia.

6 Q. Well, my question pertained to Croatia. You say that you were not

7 involved in politics. You were not interested in politics. And what I'm

8 asking you now is something quite factual. Do you know about mass

9 dismissals of Serbs from public service, from police, health care, from

10 management positions in economy? Do you know about that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is it true? Did it really happen?

13 A. It did.

14 Q. Were you dismissed in that wave of dismissal of Serb leadership?

15 A. I don't know if I was dismissed in that wave, but I was dismissed

16 on the 1st of June, 1991.

17 Q. Your case, I assume, was not an isolated one.

18 A. No. All of my colleagues were dismissed similar to me.

19 Q. Did you do something that would show that you were against Croatia

20 or that would show that you were a Serb nationalist in order to provoke

21 that dismissal?

22 A. No. There was nothing like that in my behaviour.

23 Q. So these Serbs that were involved in politics and that belonged to

24 the SDP, did they vote for that party with a confidence that later was

25 betrayed, and was that perhaps a reason why they started joining the SDS

Page 12063

1 later on?

2 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues]...

3 JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry?

4 MR. NICE: He can't possibly answer that sort of question. I

5 don't mind the political exploration that we're going on, but this witness

6 can't answer what other people voted and why they voted. There has to be

7 some limit to the exploration of political issues.

8 JUDGE MAY: Well, I know, but the fact is that they were touched

9 on in chief and the accused is, therefore, entitled to explore them, in my

10 view. If the witness can help. It may be he can't help.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know of specific cases in the area

12 where I lived. This is to say in Podravska Slatina municipality. I know

13 that some of the leading people left that party and joined the SDS. I

14 don't know their names and I couldn't give you now the names of all of

15 those people that transferred, however, I know that these people attended

16 the constituent session of the SDS, and those people were former members

17 of the SDP.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. All right, Mr. C-060. Were you a member of the League of

20 Communists?

21 A. I was a member of the League of Communists until 1988.

22 Q. And were you ever a member of the SDS after that?

23 A. No, never.

24 Q. Were you a member of any political party?

25 A. No.

Page 12064

1 Q. Therefore, after 1988, you never joined any political party?

2 A. No, never.

3 Q. All right. Since on page 3, paragraph 5 of your statement you

4 claim that at the first constituent session of the SDS in Podravska

5 Slatina cultural autonomy and preservation of national identity of Serb

6 people in Croatia was discussed; is that true?

7 A. Yes, that's the information I received from those who attended

8 that session.

9 Q. All right. Is it true that at that session there was no call to

10 arms, no call to start a war but, rather, that cultural autonomy and

11 protection of national identity and preservation of national identity that

12 was threatened, that those things were discussed?

13 A. Yes, that's right. That's what I heard about.

14 Q. All right. Since you say in your statement on page 3, paragraph

15 6, can you tell me what gang did those Serbs establish, those Serbs that

16 attended that constituent session?

17 A. I never claimed that they established a gang or joined a gang. I

18 simply described what kind of forms of military, civilian, and other

19 structures they had established.

20 Q. Well, this is what you go on to say. This is on page 3: "The

21 first reason why I did not like their idea was that their national idea

22 was insignificant compared to the idea I had supported until then, and

23 that was the idea of brotherhood and unity. That idea was much wider and

24 included multiculturalism and the integration of people of different

25 ethnicity."

Page 12065

1 That's the idea based on which Yugoslavia was established, and

2 Yugoslavia was a successful country.

3 "I did not like their nationalistic spirit, their attitude to

4 provoke incidents, nor the people who could be easily manipulated. In

5 other words, they were associated in sort of mob."

6 This is what you say.

7 A. No, that's what you say.

8 Q. I'm reading out --

9 A. I never said that I thought it was a mob, but you can put a

10 specific question to me.

11 Q. Mr. C-060, I would urge you to read what your statement says.

12 That's the last sentence of this paragraph that I read out, perhaps

13 unnecessarily in its entirety, but the last sentence goes as follows:

14 "In other words, they were associated in a sort of mob." This is what

15 your statement says.

16 JUDGE MAY: The witness can have a copy of his statement.

17 MR. NICE: Thank you very much. And we'll have to identify the

18 appropriate paragraphs in the B/C/S version.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. In the B/C/S version, as you inadequately call the Serbian

21 language, and I think in an offensive manner, is to be found in the

22 chapter headed, "The Creation of the SDS in Western Slavonia and

23 Personalities." That is the heading. And then it goes first, second,

24 third paragraph, and the last sentence is the one that refers to a "mob."

25 A. Your Honour, I didn't sign this text in this form. I signed it in

Page 12066

1 English. Now, what the wording is in English, I don't know. Nor am I

2 familiar with the English language. But I know the expressions I used and

3 could have used, but there is an explanation for this particular wording.

4 Q. And what is the explanation, Mr. C-060?

5 A. The explanation is that I know the people from my local community

6 for 30 years, and I know very well which people I would like to be in a

7 community of opinion with or a community of interests, members of my

8 family and my close friends, and I also know which people I didn't want to

9 associate with, and that's why I abandoned the party of which I was a

10 member for 20 years. Those same people, individuals but a good number of

11 them and a large proportion of the individuals had distorted, not such a

12 bad idea, of Dr. Jovan Raskovic. Some of them were present at that

13 convention. Neither then nor now nor in the future will I associate with

14 them. However, I do not believe that I used this word "banda" or "mob,"

15 regardless of what it says here. I signed the statement in English, and

16 these translations may be erroneous.

17 Q. But I assume you made your statement in the Serbian language, not

18 in English.

19 A. When I made my statement, I was shown the text. I think the text

20 was in English.

21 Q. So you were not given the text in your own language?

22 A. It was given later. But I didn't - I don't know how to put it -

23 go into that, because those were not things that I might hurt anyone's

24 rights for me to go into details or any specifics, any details.

25 Q. But I think the way you have described the Serbs in Croatia, that

Page 12067

1 they are associated in a sort of mob, is not a question of punctuation,

2 but I think it is a question of violation of rights. So I assume you

3 would have reacted if you had a chance to do so.

4 A. Mr. Milosevic, you are attributing things to me in spite of what I

5 have said. I did not say that my Serbs were a mob, but I said that some

6 people behaved in a way that could be described as uncontrolled behaviour.

7 Q. Mr. C-060, please bear in mind that I am not making any

8 insinuations. I simply read out verbatim what is written in your

9 statement which you yourself were able to see with your own eyes just

10 now.

11 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we've dealt with that and he's given

12 his answer.

13 JUDGE KWON: Or, Mr. C-060, you can find the exact word you used

14 in the English statement. I think you have that version. Could you find

15 the word you used during your -- at the statement of yours. Or Mr. Nice

16 could help him.

17 MR. NICE: Certainly. Does the --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

19 JUDGE MAY: We don't -- through nobody's fault. We don't have the

20 statement.

21 MR. NICE: In fact the word in the English statement is "mob.

22 I've -- we've laid it before him, but I don't think he speaks English

23 sufficiently necessary to --

24 JUDGE MAY: The witness has said he didn't use the word. So we

25 can't really take the matter very much further. The accused has read out

Page 12068

1 the passage.

2 Could we move on to something else, please, Mr. Milosevic.

3 Perhaps you'd like to take the English back. Let the usher do

4 that.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. In connection with that, when we're talking about your position,

7 is it true, this reference to an incident that you provoked in the

8 municipality building in Podravska Slatina, that you shot at the

9 photograph of the late President Tito?

10 A. I never shot at anybody's picture and still less the picture of

11 President Tito. And in Slatina, never in any public place did I use a

12 weapon. In Slatina or anywhere else.

13 Q. Were you taken into custody in connection with such an event, even

14 if you were innocent?

15 A. Yes, such an event was attributed to me.

16 Q. When was this when you say this incident was attributed to you?

17 A. That was in 1971.

18 Q. In 1971, during the mass movement in Croatia; is that right?

19 A. Yes. That coincided with that period. There was the "maspok" or

20 mass movement in Croatia. That is true.

21 Q. And what was insinuated to you when you were arrested in 1971 in

22 Croatia? What was it that you were charged with?

23 A. That I jeopardised the life of the chief of police and his

24 employees.

25 Q. How did you do that in 1971?

Page 12069

1 A. I didn't, when he was lying. If I had, I would have been

2 convicted.

3 Q. So what you were charged with at the time was not proven, or did

4 they consider that the act did not merit a serious conviction?

5 A. No. The chief of police in Slatina and the police commander who

6 made such a report were lying, and the investigating judge proved this.

7 Q. Very well. You say that in 1990 in Croatia, there was a

8 significant percentage of the population who declared themselves to be

9 Yugoslavs.

10 A. Yes, there was quite a number.

11 Q. Do you know the members of which ethnic group mostly declared

12 themselves to be Yugoslavs?

13 A. Mostly people from mixed marriages. That is how we called it.

14 Though some estimated that there were more Serbs. But I don't believe

15 that. I don't know. Maybe that's true. I don't know.

16 Q. You say that in Podravska Slatina, you witnessed the Croats

17 disassociating themselves from the Serbs.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Tell me, did this occur already prior to the victory of the HDZ at

20 the elections in Croatia?

21 A. I would not be able to claim that.

22 Q. And when you're talking about the ethnic composition of the

23 population of Podravska Slatina municipality, do you know what the

24 situation was after the Second World War?

25 A. Yes, I was familiar with the data at the time.

Page 12070

1 Q. So you no longer remembered them. To refresh your memory, perhaps

2 you will remember, perhaps not; if you don't, tell me no --

3 JUDGE MAY: I thought he said he was familiar with the data. Go

4 on. Put them to him.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Do you know that the majority population were Serbs? 60 to 70 per

7 cent Serbs, 30 per cent Croats. This was the situation -- 30 to 40 per

8 cent Croats after the Second World War.

9 A. Where?

10 Q. In the area in which you lived, Podravska Slatina. Do you know

11 how the composition of the population in Podravska Slatina changed in the

12 years following the Second World War?

13 A. Yes, I do. I come from there.

14 Q. Very well. Then tell me, do you know that by administrative

15 decisions of the republican authorities of Croatia, several villages with

16 a virtually hundred per cent Serbian population were attached to the

17 municipality of Orahovica in which the Croats had a large majority,

18 whereas, at the same time, some Croatian villages were attached to

19 Podravska Slatina so that the Serbs in your municipality with these

20 changes in the territories of the municipalities, the Serbs became a

21 minority. Do you remember that?

22 A. Yes, Mr. Milosevic. I have a long memory of territorial and

23 administration changes of local communities. In that context, this is

24 also part of that. However, within the framework of the autonomy of those

25 communities, I don't see any problem there in particular, especially

Page 12071

1 since, as I said in my statement, we advocated brotherhood and unity in

2 our part of the country.

3 Q. Very well. What was the relationship between Serbs and Croats in

4 1991 in your municipality?

5 A. I said that my statement; 57 to 35 per cent, and 8 per cent were

6 the others.

7 Q. Very well. And do you know that the municipality of Okucani,

8 which was mostly Serb, through administrative measures by Croatia much

9 earlier was divided into two parts, one part belonging to Novska with a

10 majority Croat population and the other to Gradiska, again with a Croat

11 majority, so that in both municipalities, as a result, the Serbs became

12 the minority population by simply administrative decisions or paperwork.

13 Do you remember that? Is that correct or are my data incorrect?

14 A. No, that is quite true, only I don't see any particular reasons

15 there. It was an autonomous decision of those people. If we're talking

16 about historical decisions, one should ask Cedo Grbic; he's from Rajic.

17 Q. So you're not disputing that this occurred. The only thing is you

18 don't know why the Croatian authorities undertook such administrative

19 matters. That is something that you can't seem to find the reason for.

20 A. Actually, it was not just the Croatian authorities. There was the

21 Croatian Serbian authority, at least while I was living there and where I

22 was born.

23 Q. Of course. Of course. There is no dispute over that.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise. I seem to have lost my

25 pen, so can I borrow one from this gentleman next to me so as to be able

Page 12072

1 to make some notes?

2 JUDGE MAY: We will go on, if we may, for another ten minutes if

3 the interpreters will allow. Thank you.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Tell me, please, in view of the fact that we've covered these

7 questions concerning the elections and attitude of the Serb population

8 towards political solutions in Croatia, the support for the SDP, et

9 cetera, does it follow then that the Serbs in Croatia subsequently, more

10 specifically in Podravska Slatina which you are testifying about and which

11 you know best about, after the elections and at the end of 1991, as far as

12 I can remember what you said, set up the SDS as a kind of response to the

13 pressure, nationalist pressure that they were exposed to by the other side

14 as a result of all these things that we have referred to coming from the

15 HDZ, not only in the political and rhetorical sense but also dismissals,

16 persecution, constitutional changes, et cetera, et cetera? Is that right

17 or not?

18 A. I didn't know, nor do I know with precision the motives to be able

19 to tell them, but probably that one could assume so.

20 Q. Very well. But do you know, for instance, that a delegation of

21 the SDS at that -- within the framework of the efforts to have all matters

22 resolved by peaceful means, being aware of the problems that were cropping

23 up under these pressures in the spring of 1991, in Zagreb, conducted talks

24 with a group of some ten or so American congressmen? Among them was an

25 American lady of Yugoslav extraction, Helen Delic Bentley, and also with

Page 12073

1 the ambassadors of the USA, Germany, France, in Belgrade and presented to

2 them the need for a peaceful resolution of the political situation in

3 Croatia, familiarised them with the problems and sought their support for

4 a peaceful settlement of what was known as the international community,

5 support for a peaceful resolution of the problems in Croatia? Do you

6 remember those initiatives, those efforts to ensure support, aid,

7 protection?

8 A. Dr. Raskovic's activities and the activities of other leaders of

9 the SDS I had occasion to see only through the media in those days, and

10 most frequently this was at the local level, that is, the media of the

11 Republic of Croatia. In those days in 1991, I didn't have occasion to see

12 any different approaches. And I don't remember noticing that they

13 attended any such meeting, but I assume that they did, that one and others

14 like it.

15 Q. Do you know that in those delegations, that was not just one

16 meeting, there was in Zagreb, in Belgrade, with there various groups, with

17 congressmen and ambassadors and so on, do you know that Ilija Sasic was a

18 member of this delegation, this man who you accuse rather grossly of

19 selling weapons and warmongering? Do you remember that? Do you know

20 that? He's a man from your environment, from your part of the country.

21 A. I do know of some media coverage given to Mr. Sasic within the

22 framework of the SDS. I know more details about what I have testified

23 about. I am not accusing him of anything except of what I heard from

24 people in his circle and accusations made by them, and I have repeated

25 them and made one myself.

Page 12074

1 Q. But let us make one thing clear, Mr. C-060. You didn't accuse him

2 of anything that you are aware of personally but of only something that

3 you heard from others who told you about it.

4 A. No. I knew a circle of people that he worked with, but I knew him

5 personally. And judging from his statements, conduct, and meetings that I

6 attended, I can assert with precision what I have said here regarding his

7 positions and endeavours.

8 Q. So you're claiming that Ilija Sasic, with Franjo Tudjman,

9 conducted negotiations in Zagreb to release Goran Hadzic. Are you sure of

10 that?

11 A. I saw that in the media, and what I saw, if my memory does not

12 fail me in these ten or 11 years, then that is what it was.

13 Q. Do you know that in mid-March 1991 he negotiated with Tudjman but

14 not prompted by this event but in connection with the release of some 30

15 Serb policemen that Croatian special forces had arrested in Pakrac without

16 any combat and held them in custody in the Bjelovar prison? Do you know

17 that that was what they discussed and not what you said?

18 A. I remember this part in the media as it was presented, that it was

19 Hadzic and Savic, I think. But I do allow for the possibility that

20 policemen were involved as well.

21 Q. Do you know that these Serbs were arrested and mistreated simply

22 because they refused to put on their caps the chequerboard flag?

23 A. I don't know why, but I do know that the Croatian MUP punished

24 them because of some kind of violation of a code. And this was an

25 incident in March 1991.

Page 12075

1 Q. Yes. I'm talking about March 1991. But tell me, then, the

2 chequerboard flag, did it have the meaning of a political symbol for the

3 Serbs or something else?

4 A. Mr. Milosevic, I am a legalist, and I consider this to be an

5 insignia of the Ministry of the Interior of Croatia. Now, whether those

6 people wanted or didn't want to accept it and to remain in service, I

7 can't go into it. As to what Serbs think about it, I can't give you a

8 collective answer. I can tell you what I think.

9 Q. But you probably have your own views - not offhand but with

10 arguments - what Serbs think. Can you tell us how many thousand Serbs saw

11 the chequerboard flag as the last thing they ever saw before dying?

12 A. I only know that from history. Maybe better than you.

13 Q. I am quite sure that you do, but do you think that their reactions

14 were just some -- an expression of arrogance or was it in protest?

15 A. I differ from some people in the expression of protests. A

16 democratic option requires a different manifestation. However, this

17 manifestation had its consequences, as you know.

18 Q. Very well. Do you know that when Tudjman was engaged in these

19 negotiations, that it was agreed that all problems should be resolved

20 exclusively by peaceful means?

21 A. I know that every time the agreement was to resolve questions by

22 peaceful means.

23 Q. Do you know that this peaceful resolution was unanimously accepted

24 at a meeting of the Main Board of the Serbian Democratic Party on the 30th

25 of March, 1991, as a generalised model for dealing with the problems

Page 12076

1 between Serbs and Croats in Croatia? Are you familiar with that?

2 A. I probably heard of it, but I didn't follow the work of the SDS,

3 and I cannot state emphatically.

4 Q. Do you know that already the next day, the 31st of March, 1991, on

5 a Sunday, and this was on the 30th of March, Croatian elite forces

6 attacked Serbs in Plitvice? The very next day. Do you remember that?

7 A. I remember certain events. I don't know whether it was that

8 particular date. I don't remember these details. It was outside my scope

9 of knowledge.

10 Q. Very well. Mr. C-060, do you know that on that very occasion

11 during the attack that occurred after what you described, Goran Hadzic was

12 arrested and not when you say and linking it to Sasic's negotiations with

13 Tudjman? So it was only on the 31st of March during the attack on

14 Plitvice that he was arrested.

15 A. I assume that it was not properly interpreted. I was talking

16 about negotiations about the release of Hadzic linked to the events in

17 Plitvice.

18 Q. Very well. Do you know that even after this attack, Serbs

19 advocated a peaceful solution to the crisis but that after all the

20 negotiations, the Croatian authorities expressed and showed hypocrisy and

21 continued their attacks on Serb villages and towns? Are you familiar with

22 that?

23 A. I do know that the intervention of the Croatian police in certain

24 areas in which the Serbs had a majority did represent a kind of

25 provocation, but I also know that if we stick to legal forms of action by