Page 8078
1 Tuesday, 16 July 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
7 WITNESS: MERITA DEDAJ [Resumed]
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]
10 Q. [Interpretation] Well, let's continue where we left off yesterday.
11 Do you know who these people were who were allegedly killed in the village
12 of Deve Babaj?
13 A. Yes. Yes, I do.
14 Q. Well, who were they?
15 A. They were Albanians who lived in Deve.
16 Q. Well, do you know their names, perhaps, or something more about
17 them, who they were, except for saying that they were Albanians?
18 A. No, I don't.
19 Q. And do you know anybody, anybody whatsoever, who was an eyewitness
20 to these alleged killings that you're talking about?
21 A. Yes. My uncle was there, because he buried them and he saw them
22 with his own eyes.
23 Q. I understood you to say that your uncle was called by the
24 commander of the unit to go and bury the people. I think that's what you
25 said, isn't it?
Page 8079
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So he wasn't there when they were actually killed, was he? So he
3 wasn't an eyewitness to the killing itself.
4 JUDGE MAY: We've been over that yesterday.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Now, you claim that the army of Yugoslavia
8 arrived in your village and that a certain officer who, as you claim, had
9 one day before that taken off your uncles for this burial, for the burial
10 of these bodies, and gave you one hour to leave the village. Is that
11 right? And that's what it says on page 2, paragraph 6 of your statement.
12 A. Yes. They forced us for an hour -- they forced everyone to leave
13 the village within an hour.
14 Q. And did he explain to you why you were supposed to leave the
15 village?
16 A. No. They just told us to get out and go to Albania
17 left the village, they told us we couldn't go to Albania
18 were to go to Korenica. And when we got to Brekoc, they turned us back to
19 Korenica.
20 Q. All right. Now, tell me this: Did he tell you, when he told you
21 to leave the village, did he perhaps tell you that combat activities were
22 expected there and that you should get away from there for your own
23 security and safety?
24 A. No. He just told us we had to get out of the village.
25 Q. And did they tell you to go to Korenica on that occasion?
Page 8080
1 A. Yes. He said to go to Korenica. And we spent a whole week on a
2 meadow there, under their orders.
3 Q. All right. We'll come to that in a little while. So he told you
4 to go to Korenica, not to go to Albania; is that right?
5 A. At the start, when he told us to get out of our houses within an
6 hour, he said, "Go to Albania." But when we got to Brekoc, he said, "You
7 can't go to Albania. Go back to Korenica." It was Nikola Micunovic who
8 said that.
9 Q. So that means that he didn't tell you that in the village, to go
10 to Korenica, as you said a moment ago. It was only when you started off
11 towards Albania that he told you to go to Korenica; is that right?
12 JUDGE MAY: She's just explained what happened. There's no need
13 to repeat it.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.
15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Now, explain this to me, please: In the statement - not this one
17 but the other one given to the investigators of the International Crisis
18 Group - it says that masked policemen whose faces were painted in colours
19 and paint, members of paramilitary forces, expelled you and the members of
20 your family from the house and that one of the policemen tried to set fire
21 to a house but the other Serbs didn't allow him to go through with it.
22 Now, explain to me, please, why this statement is different from
23 what you said a moment ago and from your written statement. Otherwise,
24 this is on page 03014968 of the Serbian version given to the International
25 Crisis Group.
Page 8081
1 JUDGE MAY: Can you follow the question? Have you followed what
2 he said?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I'm not sure. Does he mean
4 when we left Guska?
5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, are you referring to when they left
6 Guska?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] When they left their own village.
8 We're talking about the same event, the event in the statement --
9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness -- let the witness answer.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we left the village, they told
11 us, "Get out within one hour," and that's what we did.
12 JUDGE MAY: The point that's made is that in a statement which you
13 made to the -- it's said to the International Crisis Group, it says that
14 there were some masked policemen and members of the paramilitary forces
15 who expelled you and the members of your family from the house.
16 Is it right that there were masked policemen and paramilitaries
17 there?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE MAY: And the other point that's made is that one of the
20 policemen tried to set fire to a house but the other Serbs prevented him.
21 Did that happen or not?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember anything about the
23 burning of a house.
24 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Page 8082
1 Q. Well, all right, then. Can you explain why the difference between
2 your statement from the one you gave to the International Crisis Group?
3 Why do those two statements differ when they talk about the same event?
4 And both the statements are yours.
5 A. I don't really remember at the moment. They know better than I
6 might what happened. You know what happened. You know what took place in
7 Guska. You know better than I do.
8 Q. When you say they knew what happened better, who do you mean by
9 "they"? You say, "They know better than I."
10 A. No, I mean you. You knew what was going on because you gave the
11 orders.
12 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Romano.
13 MS. ROMANO: Your Honours, I have here with me the statement, or
14 at least the questionnaire that was made with the witness, and in fairness
15 to the witness, I think that Mr. Milosevic needs to put the entire phrase
16 that was said.
17 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Read out the entire phrase so that we can hear
18 it.
19 MS. ROMANO: It is -- in the statement, it says Serb policemen
20 tried to burn the witness's house but the other Serbs did not allow him
21 because they wanted to use the house as their shelter.
22 JUDGE MAY: Ms. Dedaj, do you remember anything like that
23 happening now that it's been read out?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember. To say again,
25 there was an attempt to burn the house, but there were people there. It
Page 8083
1 was the same people there.
2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. We've covered that point now, so
3 move on to the next one.
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Just one more question in that regard. Now, what is correct? Did
6 they expel you from your house the way in which you stated or the way you
7 told the International Crisis Group? What did you say?
8 JUDGE MAY: She has explained and we can go no further. So
9 there's no point going back to the point.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. May, I'm just asking what
11 happened. I assume that I --
12 JUDGE MAY: You've put it to her and you've heard her answer.
13 Now, there's no point going over it again.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. You claim that members of the Yugoslav army escorted -- or,
17 rather, that they escorted you as you were in the vehicles moving towards
18 Korenica; right?
19 A. Yes. Yes, that's true.
20 Q. Did they provide security for you then? Is that what they were
21 doing?
22 A. No, they didn't provide -- come for security. They came to get us
23 and to expel us from our houses and to leave us a whole week on a meadow.
24 From the 29th of March to the 1st -- to the 5th of April, we spent all our
25 time on a field, on a meadow, without any security whatever.
Page 8084
1 Q. All right, we'll come to that. But on the 26th and 27th of March,
2 was there -- was Djakovica bombed by NATO?
3 A. I don't remember.
4 Q. All right. Now tell us which male members of your village left
5 the village and started out for Korenica? Male members of your family.
6 A. All the village of Guska, the whole village. We all left the
7 village and went off to Korenica. My family too. No one remained behind
8 in Guska at all.
9 Q. All right. Now, you also say that the members of the army and the
10 police force in Korenica ordered the younger people and the women and
11 children to stay out in the meadow, in the field, whereas the old and the
12 elderly were sent to a house; is that right? That's what it says. And my
13 question for you is: Where was your father, uncles, and the other elderly
14 male members of your family at that time?
15 A. All of my family was on the meadow. And the house you mean, there
16 were only old people in it and people with illnesses and very old people.
17 They were not able to survive on the field. Whereas all my family and the
18 whole of the village of Guska otherwise was on the field, on the meadow,
19 for all that time.
20 Q. But already in the next paragraph you claim that the members of
21 the army ordered people to go to different houses in Korenica, to be put
22 up there. That's what it says. Now, which is true? Did they order you
23 to remain in the field or to go to the houses?
24 JUDGE MAY: Where is the reference to the -- their being ordered
25 to go into the houses? Can you just point that out to us, please.
Page 8085
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On the last paragraph of page 2, it
2 says, the last sentence: "They ordered the people to go and be put up in
3 different houses in Korenica. Together with my family, I went -- ordered
4 the people to go and stay in different houses in Korenica. Together with
5 my family, I went to stay at Prend Markaj's house, where I stayed three
6 weeks."
7 JUDGE MAY: Let's get this straight. The account which the
8 witness gives in the statement is, first of all, that they stayed in
9 Korenica a week. Then there were about a thousand people in the convoy
10 that moved from Korenica. "When we arrived in Meja-Orize, the army
11 stopped the convoy and ordered the people to go and stay in different
12 houses in Korenica." So there's no discrepancy in what she said. She's
13 talking about two different events.
14 Is it right, Ms. Dedaj, that when you got to Meja-Orize, the army
15 stopped the convoy and ordered the people to go and stay in different
16 houses? Did that happen?
17 A. Yes. Yes. That happened after we'd spent a whole week on the
18 meadow. Then they ordered us to leave in the direction of Meja, just
19 before you get to Gjakove. And then they returned us once again to
20 Korenica. And at that moment, they said go and take up shelter in
21 different houses. So I went with my family to the house of Prend Markaj
22 and spent the time there from the 27th of April, around the 27th of April.
23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. All right. But even for this first part, where Mr. May says there
25 is no difference or discrepancy with respect to what you said, that you
Page 8086
1 remained in the field for a week, take a look at this penultimate
2 paragraph on page 2. "We got into tractors and cars and started out
3 towards Korenica. When we arrived in Korenica, the army and police
4 ordered the younger people, women and children, to stay out in the field
5 and the elderly and sick were sent to houses in the village. I was one of
6 the ones that we had to stay in the meadow. At night we were allowed to
7 go in the house."
8 So were you in the field, a meadow, for a week or were you outside
9 during the day and went to a house to sleep in at night? Is that right?
10 Because that's what it says here. So which of the two is correct?
11 JUDGE MAY: They could both be correct.
12 Did you spend the night in a house, Ms. Dedaj?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. During the whole week, in the
14 daytime we spent the time on the field whereas in the evening, we all went
15 into a house, all the village of Guska. Just in the evening, during the
16 night.
17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. All right. Now, tell me this: In the statement to the
19 International Crisis Group, you claim that during the time you were in
20 Korenica, you spent your time in the houses of Prend and Marko Markaj,
21 whereas in the statement which you gave to these investigators here, you
22 say that you spent the time in the house of Prend Markaj. Now, tell me,
23 who were you staying with in Korenica? Which is it?
24 A. In the house of Marjan Markaj, we spent the evenings. That was
25 during the week that we spent on the field. All of Guska was there.
Page 8087
1 During the night, we spent in that house. Whereas a week later, from the
2 5th of April on, when we returned there, up to the 27th, we spent our time
3 in the house of Prend Markaj. Whereas the house of Marjan Markaj, we were
4 only there in the evening for one week.
5 Q. And are you related to the Markaj family at all?
6 A. You mean my family?
7 Q. Are they relations of yours? That's what I asked you.
8 A. No.
9 Q. And did all the members of your family put up at Prend Markaj's
10 house?
11 JUDGE MAY: Well, really, Mr. Milosevic, this witness deals with
12 important events. These are trivial questions which you are asking. I
13 remind you, too, that your time is limited.
14 THE ACCUSED: It seems to me, Mr. May, that the main question here
15 is time.
16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. In your statement on page 3, paragraph 4, you say that from a
18 distance of 20 metres, you heard shots, and that when you looked behind
19 you, you saw men lying down on the ground. Is that right?
20 A. Yes. Once -- they ordered us to get out of our houses, and the
21 men remained there, whereas the women and children, we went out onto the
22 street, 20 metres away. We heard a volley of firing, shooting. And when
23 we got away, 20 metres away, there was another volley of shooting. And I
24 looked around to find out what had happened with my father and my uncle
25 and all the rest who we had left behind us, the nine men behind us in the
Page 8088
1 courtyard. They were all on the ground, and I'm sure that they were --
2 that they'd been murdered. But you would know that better than I do.
3 They left us without parents, without my uncle, without anybody.
4 Q. All right. However, in the statement you gave to the
5 International Crisis Group, you say that when you turned round, you saw
6 men falling down. You saw the men fall down. Now, which is true; did you
7 see them as they were falling or did you see them when they were actually
8 lying down, when they were on the ground?
9 A. I saw them lying on the ground, merely stretched out on the
10 ground. We -- they were asking for money. They were beating us and
11 asking for jewellery, and when we turned our heads back, we could see them
12 lying on the ground and had seen what had happened to them. They were
13 not --
14 Q. All right. You then say that when you turned round, you saw the
15 soldiers who were still shooting but not towards the bodies. That's what
16 you say. "I saw the soldiers who were still shooting but not towards the
17 bodies." So what were the soldiers firing at then?
18 A. While we were in the yard until we went out, they were always
19 firing in the yard. They were firing into the air always. But let me say
20 once again, because when we went, we went no more than 20 metres away.
21 They fired at them directly, and they were lying on the ground, and we saw
22 them lying on the ground.
23 Q. And tell me, what position were the soldiers in when you saw them
24 firing?
25 A. They were standing up and firing straight ahead.
Page 8089
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Page 8090
1 Q. And tell me, where are your relatives buried?
2 A. We found -- we found only three of them, only three members of the
3 Dedaj family. The others have disappeared. We don't know where they are.
4 That's my father, uncles. And there were 12 members of the Dedaj family
5 missing. We only found three; Mush, Gjok, and one other. And we found
6 them burnt in the house where they were. It was the house of the Berisha
7 family in Korenica.
8 Q. Were these three in the group that you described a moment ago?
9 A. No. They were -- they were not in the house where my -- they were
10 staying with a different family in Korenica.
11 Q. And where is your father buried?
12 A. I have not found my father. He has vanished. I don't know what
13 happened to him now for three years. We merely left them there on 27th of
14 April and have heard no more of them. They have disappeared.
15 Q. All right. Now, who were these people who you say were killed 20
16 metres away from you? I understood you to be speaking about your father
17 and your family. So who were these people, then, the people you claim
18 were killed by the soldiers when you were 20 metres away with your back
19 turned towards them? Did you know these people?
20 A. These people were my father, my uncle, and my cousin aged 16, and
21 six other members of the family who had been standing with the Markajs,
22 and Pjeter. They were members of my family who we left behind in the
23 yard. But I don't know any more. I merely saw them being shot at and
24 lying on the ground, but we have never found the bodies, and we don't know
25 what happened to them. We haven't found the bodies or anything. They
Page 8091
1 have just disappeared.
2 And you yourself know very well, because you did this. There's
3 nothing more I have to explain.
4 Q. All right. Tell me, did anybody survive this event that you've
5 described?
6 A. Only one. Only women and children. Only we survived. The men
7 who were -- stayed behind in Korenica, nobody knows what's happened to
8 them. There were 500 people, Meja, Korenica, Guska, all missing.
9 Q. All right. Tell me, please, how come in the statement that you
10 gave to the International Crisis Group you say that Anton Dedaj, 31 years
11 old, survived this event? Is that true or is that not true?
12 A. Yes, it's true. He was staying with another family from Korenica,
13 and he had luck and he survived. He was not where I was and my father and
14 uncle were. He was not in that house.
15 Q. All right. How did you know that he survived when you left
16 Korenica and when you joined the convoy?
17 A. I knew that when we went out into the convoy, we -- we all formed
18 a convoy, and this one who survived, he was with us. He was the only one.
19 Q. All right. Did he give a statement to the investigators or to the
20 members of the International Crisis Group? Do you know that?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Where is he now?
23 A. He's living normally in Guska with us. My cousin, Anton Dedaj.
24 Q. All right. Anton Dedaj. And the statement that you gave you the
25 investigators, you do not mention him at all. Why?
Page 8092
1 A. Well, I don't know. There is no pen that can describe the events
2 that have been -- that I've been through. I wrote about a lot. I have
3 talked about a lot. But this one survived.
4 Q. Was there any fighting between the KLA and the members of the army
5 and police?
6 JUDGE MAY: Where? In what context?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am asking the witness, Mr. May, in
9 the context of the events that she has been testifying about.
10 JUDGE MAY: In Korenica at the time, or wherever it was that her
11 father was killed, are you suggesting there was fighting there?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I put the question very
13 clearly to the witness: Was there any fighting between the KLA and the
14 army and the police?
15 JUDGE MAY: You did not. Throughout the time that she has
16 described; is that what you're asking? You ought to clarify -- you ought
17 to clarify your questions.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] When I carry out my
19 cross-examination, can I reach my point in a few questions or do I have to
20 explain it to you in advance? Is that my duty in terms of your job?
21 JUDGE MAY: Your duty is to ask questions which are clear for the
22 witness to answer. If you do not do that, you will be stopped. It's not
23 fair on the witness, and it's not fair for the Court if you don't clarify
24 what you mean, and you will be asked to do so.
25 Ms. Dedaj, you've in fact answered the question. You're being
Page 8093
1 asked if there was fighting.
2 Now, deal with it in this way: First of all, at the time that
3 this execution which you've described took place, which included your
4 father, was there any fighting with the KLA at the time?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I never saw the KLA. There was
6 no KLA of any kind.
7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. All right. Did somebody shoot at you as you were leaving
9 Korenica?
10 A. At us women and children while we were walking, do you mean?
11 Q. Well, you claim that there was shooting all around. That's what
12 it says on page 3, paragraph 5. "There was shooting all round." So I
13 assume that since there was shooting all round, that there was some
14 fighting going on. I am asking you whether somebody shot at you too
15 because there was shooting all around you.
16 So was there fighting in Korenica? Because you say: "There was
17 shooting all around us."
18 A. No. There was no fighting between anybody, but there was always
19 shooting, uninterrupted, all along the road until we reached Gjakove.
20 There was always shooting. There were houses burning. The meadows were
21 full, the roads were full of men with bandannas, criminals. It was
22 terrible.
23 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you've got time for one more question.
24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Do you know anyone who was a member of the KLA?
Page 8094
1 A. No, I don't know anybody.
2 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Wladimiroff, do you have any questions of
3 this witness?
4 No. No more questions.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection of an
6 administrative nature, please.
7 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] While responding to my questions,
9 the witness said that her mother and aunt, whoever, did not attend when
10 she gave her statements to your investigators, that she was by herself.
11 But on the first page of the statement, it says, where all the names of
12 all persons who attended the interview, it says, "Ana Dedaj, mother of the
13 witness."
14 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So either your official did not
16 record the truth or the witness did not say the truth. I wish to draw
17 your attention to that, notably --
18 JUDGE MAY: Yes. You've done that.
19 Ms. Romano, have you any questions?
20 MS. ROMANO: Not for the witness, Your Honour. I just would like
21 to clarify and to point out for Your Honours that, contrary to what Mr.
22 Milosevic said, that the witness never mentioned Anton Dedaj in her
23 statement, if Your Honours can see at page 4 of the English version, she
24 makes -- she mentions at the second paragraph that: "My uncle Anton Dedaj
25 was released and joined us."
Page 8095
1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Thank you.
2 MS. ROMANO: No further questions.
3 JUDGE MAY: Ms. Dedaj, that concludes your evidence. Thank you
4 for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for inviting me.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What Ms. Romano explained just now
9 relates to subsequent events, when they were stopped on the road, whereas
10 my question was who had survived. So these are two completely different
11 things, and they pertain to completely different points in time.
12 JUDGE MAY: We can read the statements.
13 Can we have the next witness, please.
14 MR. SAXON: Good morning, Your Honours. The Prosecution will call
15 Ms. Merfidete Selmani. While we're waiting for the witness, I would just
16 like to point out that Ms. Selmani's evidence will be relevant to pages 9
17 and 10 in the Kosovo Atlas. And this next witness will also be testifying
18 related to the incidents described in paragraph 66i of the indictment.
19 JUDGE MAY: Let's just have the witness, please.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.
22 WITNESS: MERFIDETE SELMANI
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
Page 8096
1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd like to take a seat.
2 Examined by Mr. Saxon:
3 Q. Miss, is your name Merfidete Selmani?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Ms. Selmani, were you born on the 3rd of April, 1983
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Were you born in the village of Dobros in the municipality of
8 Gjakove in Kosova?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is the village of Dobros about ten kilometres to the north-west of
11 the city of Gjakove?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. On the 7th of July, 2001, did you give a statement to a member of
14 the Office of the Prosecutor about the events that you witnessed and your
15 experiences in Kosovo during 1999?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. On the 14th of March of this year, 2002, in Gjakove, did you
18 provide a short addendum to your statement of 7 July 2001?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And also on the 14th of March, 2002
21 with a copy of the statement that you previously gave and a copy of the
22 addendum in the Albanian language in the presence of a representative of
23 the Office of the Prosecutor and a presiding officer appointed by the
24 Registrar of this Tribunal?
25 A. Yes.
Page 8097
1 Q. And at that time, were you able to confirm that the copy of the
2 statement and the addendum were true and correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, I'm going to ask now that Ms. Selmani's
5 statement provided under Rule 92 bis be distributed to yourselves, to the
6 accused, and to the amici, and provided with an exhibit number, but I'm
7 not going to request right at this moment that it be admitted because
8 there are a few errors I would like to clarify with the witness.
9 JUDGE MAY: We have in fact got copies.
10 MR. SAXON: Very well. Perhaps if a copy of the Albanian version,
11 after it's marked, could be placed in front of the witness.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Document will be marked 265.
13 MR. SAXON:
14 Q. Ms. Selmani, last Friday, 12th of July, while speaking with myself
15 and other members of the Office of the Prosecutor, did you become aware
16 that there were a few errors in your statement?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, myself and the Judges are looking at the English version of
19 your statement, and on page 3 of the English version - and it's the same
20 page in the Serbian version - you describe how your family fled your home
21 and joined a convoy on the 14th of April, 1999
22 paragraph on that page, you say in your statement the following: "It was
23 a big convoy. We were in the middle, and we could not see the two ends."
24 And then there is a sentence that says, in English: "Police Pinzgauer,
25 dark blue vehicles, were among the convoy. They would drive every four,
Page 8098
1 five metres in the middle of the road."
2 My question for you, Ms. Selmani, is this: Were the police
3 Pinzgauers driving every four or five metres in the middle of the road?
4 A. No. Pinzgauers couldn't drive every four or five metres, but
5 there were -- there were tractors in the convoy.
6 Q. And where, if --
7 A. The Pinzgauers were distributed among every four or five tractors.
8 Q. All right. So just so that I'm clear, the Pinzgauers were amongst
9 the convoy. Every four or five tractors, there was a Pinzgauer?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So should that sentence on page 3 actually read: "Police
12 Pinzgauers, dark blue vehicles, were among the convoy. They were driving
13 in the middle of the convoy about every four or five tractors"? Would
14 that be correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Ms. Selmani, in the very next paragraph on the same page, the
17 first sentence begins with the following: "I have not heard the police
18 nor the soldiers cursing at the refugees."
19 On that day when you were in the convoy, were the refugees
20 verbally mistreated by the police and soldiers as the convoy passed them
21 by?
22 A. I don't know about the others, but I didn't hear. But when I was
23 with my family, there were -- there was cursing and mishandling in the
24 column of refugees, yes.
25 Q. Were these statements or cursing made by the police or the
Page 8099
1 soldiers to the refugees? Just yes or no.
2 A. The army and the police, both of them.
3 Q. What kinds of things did the police and the soldiers say as you
4 passed them by?
5 A. They said: "This is not your place. This is Serbia
6 is in Albania. Here, this is our country, and we're staying here because
7 this is Serbia."
8 Q. Ms. Selmani, do you understand the Serbian language?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Then how did you know what the police and soldiers were saying to
11 the refugees or to you and your family as you passed them by?
12 A. There were people, older people near me, with me, and they could
13 understand Serbian and they told me what they were saying.
14 Q. All right. So should that line on page 3, in the fourth paragraph
15 of your statement actually read: "The police and soldiers verbally
16 harassed the refugees"?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Ms. Selmani, on the next page of your statement, page 4, in the
19 third full paragraph, you describe how your family stopped for the day on
20 the 14th of April, 1999, in a place called Bistrazin after several
21 tractors were truck by bombs.
22 In the next paragraph - and this is the same page and the same
23 paragraph in the Serbian version - your statement says: "The next day,
24 between 8.00 and 8.30, I saw four men wearing civilian clothes, with a big
25 video camera." Is that line correct?
Page 8100
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Page 8101
1 A. No.
2 Q. When did those men with the video camera arrive, Ms. Selmani?
3 A. They arrived on the same day, on the 14th of April, in the
4 evening.
5 Q. So should that paragraph --
6 JUDGE MAY: I think, Mr. Saxon, you must let the witness describe
7 what the statement should say rather than you putting it into words.
8 MR. SAXON: Very well, Your Honour.
9 Q. On the same page of your statement, in the very last paragraph,
10 the paragraph begins: "At about 3.00 or 3.30 hours, we moved back to the
11 village with a tractor."
12 When did you and your family return to your village?
13 A. We returned to the village the next day at 8.00 p.m.
14 in the evening.
15 Q. All right.
16 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, with those corrections, I will enter that
17 statement into evidence under Rule 92 bis.
18 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll have the exhibit number that it's
19 got already.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 265.
21 MS. ROMANO: Your Honour, Merfidete Selmani is a Kosovo Albanian
22 Muslim woman who was 16 years old when the events relevant to this
23 indictment occurred. She describes how she and her relatives fled their
24 village of Dobros for the first time in August 1998 when Serb forces
25 entered the village. Although one of Ms. Selmani's brothers, Shpend
Page 8102
1 Selmani, was a member of the KLA at this time, he quit the KLA one week
2 later. Eventually, Ms. Selmani reached the city of Gjakove
3 stayed with relatives until late October 1998 when she returned to the
4 village of Dobros. Between October 1998 and April 1999, Ms. Selmani
5 noticed tanks and armoured vehicles patrolling the area around Dobros.
6 Ms. Selmani explains how on the 14th of April, 1999
7 soldiers entered her village. Other villagers began to flee, and
8 Ms. Selmani and her family joined a long convoy heading towards the
9 direction of the village of Meja and the city of Gjakove. Dark blue
10 police vehicles were interspersed among the convoy. VJ soldiers were
11 deployed along the road. Although Ms. Selmani does not speak Serbian, a
12 person travelling with her understood the Serbian language and told her
13 that the police and soldiers were yelling at the people in the convoy,
14 saying things like, "This is Serbia
15 After the convoy had passed the village of Meja, Ms. Selmani heard
16 a loud explosion from the direction of Meja. Eventually, Ms. Selmani
17 learned that bombs dropped from the air had struck a house in Meja. Her
18 convoy continued on and, after it had passed the city of Gjakove
19 bridge at Bistrazin, Ms. Selmani heard a loud explosion and saw smoke
20 coming from the part of the convoy that was in front of her. When
21 Ms. Selmani and her family reached the place of the explosion, she saw
22 dead bodies and realised that tractors had been hit by bombs dropped from
23 the air. Ms. Selmani observed two white planes flying over the area.
24 Serb police arrived and told the people in the convoy that if they
25 wanted to continue towards Albania, the police would not protect them.
Page 8103
1 Ms. Selmani and her family decided to spend the night in a field close to
2 where the bombs had fell. At one point, Ms. Selmani saw a small child
3 sitting in the road, crying, close to a trailer that was still burning
4 from the explosion of the bombs. Ms. Selmani watched as two men in
5 uniform threw this child onto the burning trailer.
6 That same evening, four men dressed in civilian clothes arrived
7 with a video camera. These men spoke in the Serbian language, and they
8 recorded the scene with the destroyed tractors and the bodies of persons
9 who died in the explosion. The following morning, Ms. Selmani and her
10 family returned to their home in Dobros.
11 Early in the morning of 27 April 1999
12 policemen beating one of her relatives and another neighbour with rifle
13 butts. Ms. Selmani returned to her home and warned the young men there to
14 run away. Ms. Selmani's brother Shpend and a number of her male cousins
15 ran to hide in the woods near Dobros. Ms. Selmani and the rest of her
16 family joined a long convoy of people fleeing Dobros and moving in the
17 direction of Meja and Gjakove.
18 Serb policemen and soldiers were deployed along the route of the
19 convoy. At one point, shooting was heard from the direction of the woods,
20 and the group of young men ran out of the woods and got on board the
21 Selmani family's tractor. When the convoy reached the village of Madanaj,
22 Ms. Selmani's father gave her his identity card and other papers with
23 telephone numbers. He told Ms. Selmani that he didn't know what would
24 happen to him.
25 Before arriving in the village of Meja, the Selmani family passed
Page 8104
1 an Albanian policeman who they knew named Fazli Myrtaj. Mr. Myrtaj was
2 known to be close to the Serb authorities. Mr. Myrtaj told the Selmanis
3 that nothing was happening and that his tractor had broken down.
4 Just before reaching the village of Meja at about noon on the 27th
5 of April, Ms. Selmani saw Serb policemen at a checkpoint at the foot of a
6 hill close to a meadow. An elderly relative, Bajram Selmani, told
7 Ms. Selmani and her family that his son had been ordered to leave the
8 convoy and was detained in the meadow. When Bajram Selmani questioned
9 another Albanian policeman, Muharrem Jakupi, about what was happening to
10 his son, Muharrem Jakupi struck Bajram Selmani with his rifle butt and
11 injured his jaw.
12 When Ms. Selmani and her family reached the police checkpoint, two
13 policemen ordered a number of men off of her family's tractor and the
14 tractor in front of it. I wouldn't read all the names in the summary, but
15 these men included Ms. Selmani's father, Zenun Selmani, and Ms. Selmani's
16 brother Shpend Selmani.
17 As the men ran up a hill towards the meadow, Ms. Selmani saw
18 policemen beating them with rifle butts. Once the men reached the field,
19 they were forced to sit in a squatting position. Approximately 80 men
20 were already in the meadow and Ms. Selmani recognised several of them.
21 Ms. Selmani never saw any of these men alive again. After the war,
22 Ms. Selmani saw the body of Sherif Selmani whose body was discovered in
23 Meja.
24 The Serb forces ordered Ms. Selmani and the remainder of her
25 family to continue. At about 12.30 p.m., the convoy reached the village
Page 8105
1 of Orize, and there Serb forces ordered certain persons in the convoy to
2 collect money from the other Kosovo Albanians and hand it over to the
3 Serbs.
4 While in Orize, Ms. Selmani saw two policemen and two other men
5 with masks take a group of men dressed in civilian clothes behind a
6 school. After the group of men disappeared behind the school, Ms. Selmani
7 heard a number of gunshots.
8 As the convoy proceeded towards Gjakove, Ms. Selmani saw policemen
9 and soldiers deployed along the road. These forces cursed the people in
10 the convoy as they passed by. At one point, the Selmani family tractor
11 nearly hit a police vehicle. When the Selmanis told the policeman in this
12 vehicle that their relatives had been kidnapped in Meja, the policeman
13 told them not to worry, after their identities were checked, the men would
14 be released.
15 When the remaining Selmanis arrived in Prizren, policemen stopped
16 them. Aircraft, which Ms. Selmani believed belonged to NATO, were flying
17 overhead, and the police ordered the Selmanis to wait half an hour for the
18 rest of the convoy. When the convoy finally reached the border with
19 Albania, Serb policemen took identity documents from the people in the
20 convoy. Ms. Selmani crossed the border into Albania
21 the 27th of April, 1999. When she returned to Dobros in June 1999,
22 Ms. Selmani found her home damaged and looted.
23 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, is this witness a 92 bis
25 witness?
Page 8106
1 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, then, according to your
3 ruling, the opposite side, when it's 92 bis, has five minutes, and I had
4 one hour and you cut that down to 45 minutes, yesterday even to 30
5 minutes. It's now 25 minutes, that is to say, five times longer than your
6 ruling stipulates without any warning from you, and I'm sure you're going
7 to caution me even before my time expires, the time allotted to me.
8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, that is true. Let me deal with that.
9 First of all, the Prosecution are entitled to make corrections where
10 that's necessary, or otherwise, the Court could be misled. So they're
11 entitled to do that.
12 I agree that the summary was slightly long. I'm sure the
13 Prosecution will have in mind that they're supposed to do it in five
14 minutes.
15 Yes. But there's no prejudice to you. Let's go on.
16 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Your brother was a member of the KLA; is that
18 right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. According to what you say, he was deployed in Dobros, that is to
21 say in your own village; right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. How many members of the KLA were there in Dobros altogether?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. Well, roughly. I assume that your brother wasn't the only one
Page 8107
1 there.
2 A. I don't know the number.
3 Q. And what duties did your brother have within the KLA?
4 A. The -- my brother didn't carry out any duties to the KLA but
5 merely defended his own family.
6 Q. He had a uniform in the house and weapons too; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In August 1998, with other members of your family, you were in the
9 cellar of your house when, from your brother Shpend -- by your brother
10 Shpend you were informed that there were Serb forces in the village, as
11 you yourself say. Now, since when was your brother Shpend a member of the
12 KLA?
13 A. My brother had been a member of the KLA for a week. And I don't
14 know what function he had and what he did. And later he handed in his gun
15 and his uniform and lived a family life.
16 Q. The KLA had positions in Smoljica; right?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. Well, you mention that in your statement. How come you don't know
19 that now?
20 A. I don't know where they had their positions, whether in Smolica or
21 some other place.
22 Q. Well, you state that you knew that the KLA at that time left its
23 positions in Smoljica. How did you get to know about that and how far is
24 Smoljica from your own village?
25 JUDGE MAY: Let's just find this in the statement. Whereabouts is
Page 8108
1 it in the statement, Mr. Milosevic?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll look for it, Mr. May. Just a
3 moment.
4 MR. SAXON: If I can be of assistance, it's on page 2, Your
5 Honour.
6 JUDGE MAY: We've in fact got it. What the -- perhaps you can
7 help us with this: What the witness says, and this is in August 1998,
8 what the statement says is that during your fleeing during this period:
9 "I did not see any Serbian forces in the area, but I know that two days
10 before, KLA had abandoned the front line in Smolica."
11 Can you help us about that, as to what happened and what you knew
12 at the time?
13 A. I didn't know anything. I merely heard that they had left.
14 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. And do you know that in the village of Smoljica, in May 1998 --
17 or, rather, let's go back a bit. You didn't tell me how far Smoljica was
18 from your own village.
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Well, is it the neighbouring village?
21 A. They are adjacent villages, but I don't know how far it is.
22 Q. Well, all right. But do you remember the event in May 1998 when
23 the KLA there waited for a vehicle with a medical team in it, which was
24 following orders from the Republic of Serbia and the health ministry and
25 was going around vaccinating the children from poliomyelitis? Do you know
Page 8109
1 about that event?
2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we don't want a speech now. Do you
3 know anything about this vehicle in May 1998? Any incident involving it?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. And do you know about another event - because this is the
7 neighbouring village - on the 23rd of May, 1998
8 of the Yugoslav army precisely in Smoljica? Do you remember that event?
9 A. No. I've never heard of this.
10 Q. So you didn't hear about that. They were shooting from recoilless
11 guns, grenades and so on.
12 JUDGE MAY: She hasn't. There's no point asking these questions.
13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. And do you know about another event that took place at the end of
15 May, on the 29th of May, 1998, in fact, when in the area of your own
16 village the KLA attacked a column of the army and killed several soldiers,
17 three soldiers, in fact, they killed on that particular day and wounded
18 two others. Do you know about that occurrence?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Do you know about any event --
21 JUDGE MAY: What is the relevance of all this? Mr. Milosevic, she
22 has described the killing of people, and her own brother and father have
23 disappeared, in August 1999 and April 1999. Now, how does it help the
24 Tribunal to know about events in May 1998 in this particular context? A
25 year before. Now, the fact that there may have been events a year before
Page 8110
1 may or may not be relevant to the case as a whole, but this witness knows
2 nothing about it, and it does not assist in any way in dealing with her
3 evidence about what happened to her family when they were expelled. Now,
4 that's the relevant part.
5 Now, I have no doubt that your idea is to try and divert from the
6 evidence - that appears to be the case - to divert from the witness's
7 evidence and to try and point out the various crimes, as you allege,
8 committed by the KLA. But the fact that they -- and you must understand
9 this; the fact that they may have committed crimes does not justify the
10 crimes which are alleged to have occurred in this indictment. And a great
11 deal of time is being wasted by asking witnesses about these matters,
12 about which usually they know nothing.
13 Now, move to a time which is closer to the time with which we are
14 dealing.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is my mistake, I assume, Mr. May,
16 if I ask a witness coming from a place where major crimes took place, ask
17 whether she knows anything about those crimes.
18 JUDGE MAY: The crimes long before. If the witness says that she
19 doesn't, then there is little point going on through a whole series of
20 them. Now, let's move on.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, how will I know whether she
22 knows anything about it or not, Mr. May, unless I ask her?
23 JUDGE MAY: You can put these matters, but you can put them very
24 shortly and not waste all the time which is wasted.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May. As far as
Page 8111
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Page 8112
1 crimes are concerned, as far as I'm able to gather, the witness here is
2 talking about just one major crime and that was the NATO bombing at the
3 bridge in Bistrazin.
4 JUDGE MAY: You better put that to her. You say it was a NATO
5 bombing; put that to her.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Of course that is my intention.
7 That is what I want to do, because that is what she describes and it is a
8 crime that is not challenged or in dispute and many people were killed
9 there. And as you don't want me to ask her anything about the activities
10 of the terrorist organisation which, according to her, her brother was a
11 member --
12 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Move on.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I'll skip over these
14 questions then.
15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Now, you say that your brother Shpend followed you to Skivijane,
17 went with you, and that after that, he drove himself back to Dobros and
18 that he was wearing civilian clothing and that he had a rifle with him.
19 Now, apart from your brother, as an armed member of the KLA
20 wearing civilian clothing, in your group were there any other KLA members
21 of that kind?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. And did you see anybody except your brother with weapons of any
24 kind?
25 A. No, I didn't see anybody.
Page 8113
1 Q. And did you see anybody wearing a KLA uniform?
2 A. No, I didn't see anybody.
3 Q. You go on to say that your brother left the KLA seven days later,
4 that he handed over his weapons and caught up with you in Djakovica and
5 that you stayed there for two months. How do you know that he left the
6 KLA? Did he tell you himself?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What did he tell you with respect to his leaving the KLA?
9 A. He knew that when he -- when he came up to the family, I knew that
10 he had -- he had left the KLA and had decided to remain with his family.
11 Q. Did he tell you who he had given his weapon to and whether he gave
12 it up at all, handed it in?
13 A. No, he didn't tell me.
14 Q. All right. Now, you say that the situation in your village was
15 calm and quiet the whole time and that it was even quiet when NATO started
16 bombing Serbia. And then you go on to say that you heard the planes and
17 the flash of the explosions in the area of Cabrata. Do you mean Cabrata
18 in Gjakove? Is that the place you mean?
19 A. Do you mean Cabra?
20 Q. Well, you say Cabra, in the area of Sabrat [phoen] or Cabrat. Is
21 it Sabrat in Djakovica? Are you talking about that place?
22 A. Yes, Cabra is in Gjakove.
23 Q. And when was it bombed? When was Cabrat bombed? When was
24 Djakovica bombed?
25 A. I don't know when Gjakove was bombed, but as far as I remember, on
Page 8114
1 the 25th of March, in the evening, we saw these flashes. And I believe
2 that these flashes came from that direction.
3 Q. All right. In your statement, you go on to speak about the
4 forming of convoys and the departure from the village on the 14th of
5 April, 1999. And then you go on to say that the convoy headed in the
6 direction of Djakovica, and you talk about the airstrikes at the Bistrazin
7 bridge.
8 Do you know how many civilians died on that day in the NATO
9 airstrikes at Bistrazin?
10 JUDGE MAY: That presupposes, which is not the evidence the
11 witness has given, that this was a NATO bombardment.
12 Do you know who was responsible for this bombing or not,
13 Ms. Selmani?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't know. We were unable to
15 tell whether it was from -- whether it was NATO or somebody else.
16 JUDGE MAY: So that is the state of the evidence as far as this
17 witness is concerned, Mr. Milosevic. If you've got some other evidence on
18 the point, you can call it before us, but meanwhile, there's no point
19 going on putting to this witness that it was due to NATO.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I think that this really is
21 senseless. Now, in your book, "As Seen As Told" --
22 JUDGE MAY: There's no point arguing about this matter. You've
23 heard what the witness said. If you've got some other evidence on the
24 point, of course you can call it, but I'm not going to allow you to ask
25 questions endlessly about something which witnesses know nothing about.
Page 8115
1 Now, you can ask some other questions if you want, of course.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I'm not saying this to the
3 witness, I'm saying it to you, because I consider that this is highly
4 improper, because in your book, it says: "Although NATO recognised --
5 acknowledged the bombing, it was only several days later that it took
6 responsibility for the bomb in Bistrazin." And that is what it says in
7 your own book.
8 JUDGE MAY: It may be.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is so --
10 JUDGE MAY: It may be. But this witness knows nothing about that.
11 And at the moment, what you're supposed to be doing is asking the witness
12 questions, not arguing the whole time and trying to score points. You can
13 do all that. But what -- all the witness can talk about is what she knows
14 herself, and that is her evidence.
15 Now, we will adjourn now for 20 minutes.
16 Ms. Selmani, during the adjournment, don't speak to anybody about
17 your evidence, please, until it's over, and could you be back in 20
18 minutes' time.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 11.52 a.m.
22 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Please take a look at these three photographs. Is this the scene
25 that you saw?
Page 8116
1 JUDGE MAY: You're putting that to the witness, are you?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. I'd like to have it put on the
3 overhead projector as well.
4 JUDGE MAY: Yes, you can do that. Yes.
5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Please take a look at these three photographs. Are these the
7 scenes that you saw? These are photographs of the NATO bombing of the
8 convoy by Bistrazin.
9 A. I can see these photographs very well, but I don't remember. But
10 where they were, I don't know.
11 Q. Please show the other photograph as well.
12 A. It's the same here; I don't remember.
13 JUDGE MAY: And the third one.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Also here; I don't remember.
16 JUDGE MAY: Very well. If they could be --
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you please return that to me.
18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Do you know, since you were there and you're from the municipality
20 of Djakovica, do you know that on the next day, the investigating judge
21 established and made public that 69 bodies of persons killed were found,
22 mainly old people and children. Are you aware of that?
23 A. No. I don't know.
24 Q. And do you know also that 43 wounded persons were brought to the
25 Djakovica hospital and Ali Tolaj [phoen], an Albanian surgeon, said that
Page 8117
1 the wounded had succumbed to their wounds as a consequence of the
2 explosion. Are you aware of what?
3 A. I'm not. I am not aware of what happened, where they carried them
4 and where they took them and what happened to these bodies.
5 Q. All right. After that event, you went towards Albania
6 right?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Where did you go after that event?
9 A. That night, we slept there in those meadows, and 8.00 the next
10 evening we reached home, we returned back home.
11 Q. And how long did you stay at home?
12 A. We stayed at home until the 27th of April.
13 Q. All right. So on the next day, when you went back to your
14 village, did anybody stop you from doing that; the army, the police,
15 anyone?
16 A. I didn't understand that. Excuse me, can you repeat the question
17 again?
18 Q. After this event, you say that you spent the night outdoors, and
19 the next day you decided to go back home. Did you have any problems in
20 terms of returning home?
21 A. No. There was no problem in going home because, of course, they
22 had decided to eliminate all the men in our house on 27th of April, and
23 that is what happened in the end.
24 Q. Who decided to liquidate your men?
25 A. I don't know. You know better than I do. You know who did it.
Page 8118
1 Q. All right. I didn't see from your statement that your men were
2 liquidated. On the basis of what are you claiming that?
3 JUDGE MAY: That, in fact, was the question which you put,
4 Mr. Milosevic. So you may be confusing the witness. The word
5 "liquidated" was your word.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Oh, no. That's the word I heard in
7 the interpretation, Mr. May, and I used it. It is not my word, no. It is
8 the word that reached me through the Serbian interpretation. Everybody
9 can hear that, everybody who is listening to the Serbian interpretation.
10 JUDGE MAY: Let us move on.
11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. You speak about the event of the 27th of April, 1999
13 page 03031882, and this is the event dated the 27th of April, your
14 brother, Shpend, and Jonuz, Baki, Burim, and Nexhat Selmani, your
15 relatives, and Nijazi and Zenun and a certain Ismet went to hide in the
16 woods. That's what you say here. Is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And now, please answer the following question: In addition to
19 your brother Shpend, these persons that you enumerated, were they also
20 members of the KLA?
21 A. They were not members of the KLA. They were in civilian clothes,
22 unarmed. And when I went out, I saw them beating my uncle with rifle
23 butts, and I turned, and out of fear that such a thing could happen to
24 them, I --
25 Q. I don't understand. Who beat your uncle when you went out?
Page 8119
1 A. It was my uncle and nephew who were beaten by four policemen, four
2 Serbian policemen. It was not my uncle on my father's side but on my
3 mother's side.
4 Q. All right. I heard uncle on the father's side in the
5 interpretation, and that's why I used that word when speaking myself.
6 I asked you about the group in which your brother was and that
7 went into the woods on the 27th of April. You claim that all of them were
8 civilians, that all of them were unarmed. Only your brother was a member
9 of the KLA. The rest were not members of the KLA. That's what you say.
10 And now, further on, you say that in the woods there was shooting
11 and that your father went to the woods to find the young men who had fled
12 from your home.
13 My question is the following: Who was shooting at who in the
14 woods? Was there some fighting going on in the woods between the army and
15 the KLA?
16 A. These people who went out into the woods were unarmed, and the
17 Serbian police and army fired at them. If they had had weapons, they
18 would have fought, and they wouldn't have come out of the woods alone.
19 But they came out of the woods and joined the convoy with the members of
20 their families.
21 Q. All right. You say that these young men got out of the woods,
22 they joined the convoy. I understood from what your statement says that
23 they joined you on your tractor and that your father was walking alongside
24 the tractor. How did they change their decision? First they went into
25 the woods to seek shelter there and then they returned to join you. Did
Page 8120
1 they tell you why they changed their minds?
2 A. Because they had been chased there by the Serbian army and police,
3 and they were forced to get out of the woods to join the convoy.
4 Q. Tell me, please, since they were youngish people -- at any rate,
5 they were much younger than your father; right?
6 A. Yes. It was Nexhat, 15 years old, and he has now disappeared. He
7 vanished at Meja on the 27th of April, and nothing knows -- nobody knows
8 what happened to him.
9 Q. And tell me, since they were younger and they were on the tractor
10 and you say that your father walked by the tractor, why were they on the
11 tractor and your father, who is older than they are, walked by the
12 tractor? Is there a reason for that?
13 A. My father was not so old that he couldn't walk. And there were so
14 many people, civilians, in the convoy that a tractor could not hold the
15 entire family and some people had to walk alongside and some travelled on
16 the tractor.
17 Q. Further on, you say that at the police checkpoint, 18 persons,
18 including your father and your brother Shpend, were kept there, or,
19 rather, they were ordered to disembark from the tractor, and then you
20 mention their names; is that right?
21 A. That's the truth.
22 Q. All right. And then you say that the International Red Cross
23 Committee has registered them as missing persons. Do you allow for the
24 possibility that, after having been identified and after having been
25 checked out, they were released and that, after that, they joined the KLA
Page 8121
1 again?
2 A. No, that's not possible. We reported them to the Red Cross as
3 missing persons, but we don't know what happened to them, where they are,
4 whether they're alive or dead or where they're being kept.
5 Q. On page 03031884, in the last paragraph: "I saw that the
6 policemen near a place Tyrbe," or Trbe - I don't know how you pronounce it
7 - "talked to you, said to you that you should not be afraid for them
8 because they would be released once their identity is established." So do
9 you allow for the possibility that later they joined the KLA or perhaps
10 they were killed in the bombing?
11 JUDGE MAY: She said no in answer to that question, and she can't
12 speculate any further.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.
14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. You mention the village of Orize and what happened there when you
16 saw 15 men and two policemen. And then you say, I'm quoting you: "I did
17 not see these 15 men being shot at, but I think they were killed."
18 Who were these 15 men? Do you know them?
19 A. No.
20 Q. And on the basis of what do you think that they were killed,
21 although you yourself say that no one was shooting at them.
22 A. I didn't say that they didn't fire at them, because I heard the
23 gunshots. But you couldn't see them. And still today, their relatives
24 are looking for them as missing persons. They don't know what's happened
25 to them.
Page 8122
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Page 8123
1 Q. All right. In connection with what you said, that in Bistrazin
2 the next day, you saw four civilians with a big video camera who were
3 recording scenes there, did they talk to someone as well?
4 A. No. I heard them speaking Serbian among themselves, but I didn't
5 see them talking to anyone else there, no.
6 Q. In your statement, you say that when you returned to your house,
7 you realised that it had not been looted; is that right?
8 A. Could you repeat the question, please? I didn't understand you.
9 I didn't understand what you were saying.
10 Q. When you returned to your house in Dobros, after that event by the
11 place called Bistrazin, you released that your house had not been looted;
12 is that right?
13 A. My house hadn't been burnt, but it had -- but the other houses had
14 suffered. They were on fire and there was smoke rising from them.
15 Q. All right. I'm asking you whether your house had been looted.
16 A. Yes, it was.
17 Q. And why did you write down here that your house had not been
18 looted? Is it in the penultimate line, page 4. "When we arrived in
19 Dobros, our house had been damaged but not looted. The livestock --"
20 JUDGE MAY: It may be there is a misunderstanding about the
21 occasion that she's being asked about.
22 Do you follow that? It may be that you're being asked about the
23 first time, not when you came back from Albania
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 13th of April -- on the 14th
25 of April we're talking about, aren't we?
Page 8124
1 JUDGE MAY: What was the position then, yes. How was the house
2 then when you came back?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was looted, and it was broken
4 into.
5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. All right. Do you know anything about who it was that looted all
7 sorts of Albanian houses in Northern Albania
8 A. I didn't understand the question. Sorry.
9 JUDGE MAY: Do you know anything about -- you're being asked about
10 Northern Albania. Do you know anything about that, about the looting of
11 houses there? It may be that you don't.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, no.
13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. All right. Tell me about the meeting with the Albanian. You say
15 that Fazli Myrtaj is his name, 65 years old, a local policeman from
16 Sheremet. You don't remember his brother's name; it doesn't really
17 matter. Did you know him from earlier on, this local policeman? Did you
18 know him?
19 A. Yes, but not as a policeman. I knew him just as an individual.
20 Q. And here you mention him as a policeman; is that right?
21 A. He was probably forced to put on a police uniform by the Serbs,
22 Serb forces, and to work for them. But I don't know exactly what purpose
23 was behind it.
24 Q. All right. Do you know any other Albanian who was a local
25 policeman there or only him? Was he the only one?
Page 8125
1 A. I know of this one, but I don't know of any others. I don't
2 remember.
3 Q. All right. You say on page 5: "I know that Mush Jakupi and his
4 sons were local policemen, Albanians. And also from Hila, Djakovica loyal
5 to the Serbian regime. That's what it says here in your statement. Mush
6 Jakupi and his sons. And you say they were loyal to the Serbian regime.
7 How does that correspond to what you've said just now, that they were
8 forced to wear a uniform?
9 A. The sons of Mush Jakupi, that's true. They -- I think they were
10 from Osek. I didn't know them very well. But the older people who had
11 met them said at that time when we were being expelled by Serb forces from
12 our homes, they would expel us from our homes or they would send us back,
13 they would do whatever they wanted, and these persons were known as
14 collaborating with -- as having collaborated with Serb forces at the time.
15 Q. So Albanians who were local policemen, it is your claim that they
16 were the ones who expelled you from your houses and then returned you
17 there; is that right?
18 A. They didn't come personally to expel us from our houses. It was
19 military and police -- Serb military and police forces who expelled us.
20 Q. Since you said a short while ago that they expelled you and
21 returned you, they didn't do it personally, they sent the Serb army and
22 the police to do that. Was that their role?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. All right. Thank you very much.
25 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Wladimiroff?
Page 8126
1 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No questions, Your Honour.
2 Re-examined by Mr. Saxon:
3 Q. Ms. Selmani, Mr. Milosevic asked you whether you were aware that
4 an investigating judge had established that 69 bodies of persons who were
5 killed at the bridge at Bistrazin were found, and your answer was no.
6 To your knowledge, did any Serb authorities investigate what
7 happened to your father, to your brother, to the other Kosovo Albanian men
8 who disappeared at Meja on the 27th of April?
9 A. They disappeared on the 27th, and we don't know anything about
10 what happened to them. We asked the accused to -- as responsible, about
11 what had happened to them, but we still don't know. We haven't had any
12 information about what happened to them, about where they could be or
13 where they're being held. We've been asking now for years, for a couple
14 of years, to find out what happened to them but we haven't been able to
15 find out anything.
16 Q. Ms. Selmani, the accused asked you whether you thought it was
17 possible that the men who you last saw in that meadow at Meja had been
18 released and joined the KLA or had been killed in the bombing. My
19 question for you is this: On the 27th of April, 1999
20 meadow near Meja and you saw your relatives being beaten as they ran up
21 towards the meadow, and forced to squat down there, did you see or did you
22 hear any bombs falling?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you see any KLA soldiers that day?
25 A. No.
Page 8127
1 MR. SAXON: Thank you. I have nothing further.
2 JUDGE MAY: Ms. Selmani, that concludes your evidence. Thank you
3 for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 JUDGE MAY: Ms. Romano, before we dealing with the next witness,
7 there is one ruling which I want to give. It concerns the witness Mr.
8 Radojkovic.
9 Mr. Ryneveld, yesterday, asked us to consider whether that witness
10 could give evidence by way of Rule 92 bis, that is by way of a written
11 statement. I take it he would have conceded the cross-examination. But
12 in any event, we've considered the matter and, given the nature of his
13 evidence, we do not think it appropriate, and he should be called live.
14 If you would pass that on, please.
15 MS. ROMANO: I will, Your Honour. And the other one -- I think
16 the other witness that was mentioned, Karleusa, he will be taken live.
17 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well.
18 MS. ROMANO: Your Honours, the next witness is K31, and I think we
19 have an order for closed session.
20 JUDGE MAY: You have an order for closed session. Unless there
21 are any other matters which should be dealt with in open session, we will
22 go into closed session.
23 MS. ROMANO: Thank you.
24 [Closed session] [Confidentiality lifted by later order of the Chamber]
25 [The witness entered court]
Page 8128
1 WITNESS: WITNESS K31
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness take the declaration.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
5 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
6 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd like to take a seat.
7 I'm sorry, what?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I said can I ask a question,
9 Mr. May, before Ms. Romano starts the examination?
10 JUDGE MAY: Very briefly, because we need to get on.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just briefly, yes. It has to do
12 with Witness K31, because the opposite side, in its motion of the 29th of
13 May, explained that it was a woman, (redacted),
14 and it says that there was a sexual offence that was concerned. But when
15 I read out the statement, this has nothing to do with a sexual assault or
16 offence. So I'm asking you, why are we in closed session? Why is this
17 witness a protected witness, and can you explain to me the reasons for
18 your decision to hold a closed session?
19 JUDGE MAY: We will hear the statement read out, and if there is
20 any issue arising, we will consider it.
21 MS. ROMANO: Your Honours, maybe I will be able to clarify. In
22 fact, there are two statements, and the sexual assault, it's contained in
23 the second statement, and both were disclosed to the accused.
24 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
25 MS. ROMANO: Should I proceed?
Page 8129
1 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
2 MS. ROMANO: I would like to show the witness this document. If
3 the usher can distribute also. This is a one-page document containing the
4 name of the witness and date of birth.
5 Examined by Ms. Romano:
6 Q. Witness, can you please review the piece of document that is in
7 front of you, and can you read, but without saying your name, can you
8 confirm if this is your name and your date of birth.
9 A. That is my name, my place of birth, and K31 written on it.
10 Q. Thank you, Witness. So during all the proceedings, you will be
11 referred to by this number, K31. Do you understand that?
12 A. Yes, I understand you.
13 MS. ROMANO: The Prosecution would like to submit the document
14 into evidence and under seal.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 266.
16 MS. ROMANO:
17 Q. Witness, you gave two statements to the Office of the Prosecutor.
18 One on the 12th of March, 2002, and the second one on 12th of -- no, I'm
19 sorry. The first one on 16 October 1999
20 2002. And -- yes?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And in the second statement, you add information about what
23 happened when you took your brother to the school (redacted) after he had
24 been shot, and you left him at the hospital and stayed there. That's
25 correct?
Page 8130
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Witness, you also attended a meeting with a representative of the
3 Registrar, and at that meeting you had the opportunity to review both
4 statements, and you had the statements read out to you in the Albanian
5 language or you read them, and at that time, you confirmed that the
6 contents of your statements, both, are correct and true?
7 A. Yes, that's true.
8 MS. ROMANO: Might the statements both be tendered into evidence,
9 Your Honours?
10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We will have the exhibit number.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 267, which will be kept under
12 seal.
13 MS. ROMANO: The witness is a (redacted) female Kosovo Albanian
14 Muslim from the village of (redacted)in the municipality of (redacted).
15 She's one of (redacted) children. Her father, (redacted), brother
16 (redacted), and sister (redacted) were killed in (redacted) 1999 by Serb
17 On (redacted) 1999, (redacted), the witness and her family was awoke
18 by her mother who had heard gunfire nearby. They dressed and headed
19 towards the mountains. A total of 16 people. They remained in the woods
20 and after a time, (redacted) left to check if the road was
21 clear. He was shot. The remainder of the group headed further into the
22 woods and later that day, Serb troops approached them on foot. Her father
23 and brother, in an attempt to escape, ran in different directions. The
24 remainder of the group was shot at but none were -- but none injured. The
25 witness recognised one of the soldiers. He went in the direction of her
Page 8131
1 father, had taken. Later, she heard shots.
2 As the soldiers approached, the witness's brother (redacted) and sister
3 (redacted) were shot at. Her sister died ten minutes later. The group
4 were allowed to leave. The witness carried her injured brother to the
5 school in the village. They had to leave the dead girl where she died.
6 From the school, the witness and her brother were taken to (redacted)
7 in an APC. From there, they took another military vehicle to the hospital
8 in Pristina. En route, she was threatened with being thrown into a river
9 by a soldier in the APC. In this vehicle, she was handcuffed and
10 repeatedly assaulted.
11 At Pristina hospital, her brother was taken from her and she was
12 taken to a dark room in the basement when -- where there was between 10
13 and 15 other young Kosovo Albanian women, one of whom informed her they
14 had been brought there to be raped.
15 A short time later, a soldier entered the room and selected the
16 witness by torchlight, and he and two other soldiers took her to another
17 basement room. In the room, she was forced to drink something
18 bitter-tasting by one soldier while the other two were guarding the door.
19 The drink affected her eyesight temporarily. In the room, she was
20 viciously raped and assaulted by this first soldier, and when she was
21 finished, he wiped his penis on her shirt, smearing her with blood.
22 After this, one of the soldiers guarding the door entered the room
23 and raped the woman twice. The third soldier entered and sat on her
24 stomach. After this, she lost consciousness and awoke some time later.
25 She went to the fifth floor of the hospital where she found her
Page 8132
1 brother and managed to remain with him for the next two weeks, evading
2 capture or being seen by hiding in the toilets and in her brother's bed.
3 On leaving the hospital, she checked the room where the other women were
4 held, but there was nobody there.
5 The witness first travelled to her aunt's house (redacted) with
6 her brother and then to her village (redacted) after 23 days of absence.
7 She learned –
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could Ms. Romano please slow down.
9 MS. ROMANO: I'm sorry.
10 She learned the bodies of her father and brother were found close
11 to where she last saw them. She states the reason she did not tell about
12 the rape, that it was because of the shame associated with such an offence
13 in the Muslim culture, and also she believed her family has suffered
14 enough with the loss of her father, brother, and sister.
15 Can the usher please show the witness Exhibit 18.
16 Q. Witness --
17 MS. ROMANO: Can you put it on the ELMO, please.
18 Q. Witness, this is a set of photographs with men with uniform.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you please point to the ones, if you can recognise any of
21 them, that you saw in the hospital and the ones who took you to the room
22 and raped you.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you point to the Court, please.
25 A. Number 3 and number 9.
Page 8133
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Page 8134
1 Q. How many of them that were in the hospital?
2 A. There were a lot of them in the hospital, but I would just count
3 three.
4 Q. Okay. Thank you, Witness.
5 MS. ROMANO: No further questions, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
7 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:
8 Q. [Interpretation] I'll begin at the beginning, and I'm not aware of
9 the end because I haven't got that second statement, but I think that what
10 I have heard suffices and that I can challenge it in its entirety.
11 You gave a statement in 1999, and your second statement you gave
12 in 2002; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. How did you get the idea of giving another statement three years
15 later?
16 JUDGE MAY: It's not three. One year. 1999 and 2000; it's a year
17 later.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I heard 2002.
19 JUDGE MAY: You are quite right. It was October 1999 and March
20 2002. So two years and a bit.
21 Yes. Yes, Ms. Romano.
22 MS. ROMANO: Your Honours, just to clarify, the second statement,
23 the English version was disclosed on the 23rd of April this year --
24 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
25 MS. ROMANO: -- and the B/C/S on the 19th of June. But if the
Page 8135
1 accused needs, we can provide a B/C/S version.
2 JUDGE MAY: The accused is apparently prepared to go on as it is.
3 Yes. You're quite right. Two and a half years later.
4 So what you're being asked is how did it come about that you came
5 to make the second statement?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This happened because when I gave
7 the first statement, I was with my family, but -- and I had never told my
8 family that I had been raped. I kept it to myself. And when they came to
9 make a statement with my family, I didn't say. But when they came and
10 took me to one side, I was able to talk about it when we were in private
11 with them, because I was not able to tell anybody. I had to keep it to
12 myself. And nobody in my family knew that I had been raped. But later,
13 two and a half years later, I told only my mother.
14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Please. Let's take a look at your first statement. Would you
16 take a look at it, please. Just the second half of the statement, in
17 fact. On the one but last page, you say: "My sister stayed in the forest
18 where she was killed. I left with my mother, carrying my unconscious
19 brother to the village school. From the school in (Redacted), they took us
20 in a Serbian armoured personnel carrier." And then you say that: "Along
21 the way, the soldiers stopped the APC on a bridge in front of the main
22 road, and they took me out of the vehicle, and I was told to jump into the
23 river, which I refused to do. One of the soldiers took his knife and put
24 it on my throat. There was already blood on the blade. At the same time,
25 the soldiers asked for my uncle. My answer was that I don't know anything
Page 8136
1 about him. Then the soldiers tried to throw me by force into the river,
2 but I succeeded to struggle by keeping my hands on the armature that was
3 on the bridge. After a while, I was ordered back to the APC and I was
4 taken to (redacted) with my brother."
5 Therefore, a group of soldiers tried to throw you into the river,
6 but as you were holding on firm to the armature, you succeeded in
7 defending yourself, and they then took you back to the APC and took you to
8 hospital with your brother. Is that what you said?
9 A. That's right. If they had used greater force, they might have
10 been able to throw me in the river. But because they didn't really want
11 to do that, they used some very bad language and grabbed me by the hair.
12 My hands were tied. After they didn't push me in the river, they tied my
13 hands and put me in the APC.
14 Q. Did they want to throw you into the river or did they not want to
15 throw you in?
16 JUDGE MAY: She can't answer that. She can only say what actually
17 happened.
18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. All right. Are you saying that this group of soldiers who wanted
20 to throw you into the river didn't succeed in throwing you into the river
21 because you were holding on to the rail? Is that what you're saying?
22 A. I said I managed to hold on with what strength I had. But if they
23 had tried harder, they could have thrown me in the water. But when they
24 saw that I was resisting, they tied my hands and put me in the APC.
25 Q. All right. It seems completely unbelievable, doesn't it, K31,
Page 8137
1 that a group of soldiers wasn't able to throw you into the river when they
2 had a mind to?
3 JUDGE MAY: That is a comment.
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Now, the question is: Does it seem to you to be quite
6 unbelievable, K31, that a group of soldiers was not able to throw you into
7 the river if they really wanted to? Doesn't it seem unbelievable?
8 JUDGE MAY: It is a comment, Mr. Milosevic. This is what the
9 witness said happened.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Now, in this first statement of yours, after the paragraph that I
13 read out, it says in the last sentence that your brother was treated 12
14 days. Now I heard from the summary read out by Ms. Romano that you say he
15 was treated for 14 days. How long was your brother in hospital for? How
16 did you -- how long did you spend in hospital with your brother? Was it
17 12 days or 14 days?
18 A. Well, 12 to 14. It was something like that. Ten, 13; I can't say
19 exactly how many days because this was three years ago, and maybe I've
20 forgotten one day. I was traumatised. I could only say what I remembered
21 when I gave my statement. It could be 12 or 13 or 14.
22 Q. Well, all right. Three years later, you weren't traumatised. So
23 you ought to be able to remember the number of days; is that right?
24 JUDGE MAY: Does it really matter whether it was 12 or 14?
25 There's no need to answer that. You've answered it.
Page 8138
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It does matter, Mr. May, because
2 she's not telling the truth at all.
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. And I'm going to read the penultimate paragraph now of your last
5 sentence: "At Pristina hospital, I was alone with my brother. There was
6 only water available, but nothing else. My brother was offered thin
7 slices of bread, but I didn't get anything."
8 Are you saying that they did not feed the patients in hospital,
9 that they would withhold food to the patients, in Pristina at that, in the
10 Pristina hospital?
11 A. In Pristina hospital, they gave Serbs as much to eat as they
12 could, but they gave me nothing, and they only gave my brother some thin
13 slices. And we didn't even dare go outside to buy anything. And we
14 survived in -- with water and a few biscuits I found in the corridor.
15 Q. All right. The main thing is for me to hear what you're saying,
16 what you're asserting. And you're now asserting that in the Pristina
17 hospital, they provided the Serbs with food but deprived the Albanians of
18 food. Is that what you're saying?
19 A. They only gave Albanians two or three very, very thin slices of
20 bread. And they took us Albanians high up to the fourth and fifth floors
21 and kept the Serbs down below because the Serbs were frightened of the
22 NATO bombing.
23 Q. All right. Let's be quite precise here. They would just give you
24 two thin slices of bread, to the Albanians, whereas they supplied the
25 Serbs with normal amounts of food. And you only got two thin slices of
Page 8139
1 bread at the hospital in Pristina. Is that what you're saying? Is that
2 what you're claiming?
3 A. They didn't give me anything. They merely gave my brother a
4 little bit.
5 Q. All right, for your brother, then. So to a patient in the
6 hospital. And what you're saying is that they didn't give the Albanian
7 patients any food at all except those two thin slices of bread. Is that
8 what you're saying? At the Pristina hospital, at this point in time;
9 right?
10 A. Perhaps those of us had money they gave a bit more, even if we
11 weren't Serbs, but they didn't give me anything at all.
12 JUDGE KWON: Just for clarification, Witness K31, at the hospital
13 were you hiding at the time so that's the reason you didn't get any food?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was down in the basement, and I
15 went upstairs, looking for my brother, and I stayed with him. And they
16 saw me when I was staying with my brother, but they didn't give me
17 anything to eat.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And often I asked for food, but they
20 wouldn't give me any.
21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. All right. Now, you say that they saw you and that they didn't
23 give you food, and that often you even asked for food but they wouldn't
24 give you any food. And a short while ago, you said that you were hiding
25 all the time so that no one would see you so they wouldn't rape you again.
Page 8140
1 Please, why are you lying?
2 JUDGE MAY: No. That's not a fair basis for putting the question.
3 Have you told us the truth or not?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm telling the truth. I'm not
5 lying to you. But I was not raped by any of the civilians, the doctors or
6 people at the hospital. I was raped by people in uniform, and when they
7 came, I hid.
8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. All right. Didn't you state a short while ago that you were
10 hiding all the time, either in your brother's bed or in some toilets or I
11 don't know where? That's what you said. That's what's recorded here in
12 the transcript. And now you are saying that you were not hiding, that you
13 asked them for food, that they saw you and that they didn't give you food,
14 et cetera. So were you hiding or were you not hiding?
15 A. I was only hiding from people in uniform.
16 Q. Well, what were people in uniform doing in patients' rooms in
17 hospitals? What were they doing in patients' rooms at all, men in
18 uniform?
19 A. These uniformed men changed every day and came regularly and
20 patrolled all the wards and asked where we were from.
21 Q. All right. Are you claiming, then, that these soldiers in uniform
22 - a short while ago you showed us one in a helmet - that these soldiers
23 in uniform, in front of the doctors, because as you know, in the Pristina
24 hospital doctors are Serbs, and Albanians and Muslims and others, so in
25 front of the medical staff, the nurses, the orderlies, et cetera, they
Page 8141
1 took you by the hand, took you to the basement in order to rape you? Is
2 that what you claim happened at the Pristina hospital?
3 A. No. It didn't happen like that. I wasn't grabbed by the doctors
4 but by these people in uniform who brought me from (redacted) to Pristina.
5 I was never bothered by the doctors. They checked my brother every now
6 and then. But I was raped in the basement by young men in uniform. And
7 when I came to, I didn't know what had happened. The doctors never
8 bothered me at all, ever.
9 Q. I never said that the doctors raped you. I asked you whether it
10 is your claim that these men in uniform, before the eyes of the doctors
11 and the nurses and the other staff in the overcrowded hospital, that these
12 men took you downstairs into the basement to rape you. Is that your
13 claim? Just say yes or no.
14 A. No. They took me and took me down to the basement. The doctors
15 were upstairs in their own quarters. But they took me to the basement.
16 And I don't know where the doctors were, I didn't see them at that time.
17 Q. Let me just end what I've been quoting. It is sad that the other
18 side resorts to such things.
19 You say that your brother was given thin slices of bread. We
20 established that. You claim that Albanians were not fed except for
21 receiving thin slices of bread and that Serbs ate properly, that is your
22 claim. And then you say: "Sometimes other patients gave me food as well,
23 but on other occasions, I had just to take from the others. All Albanian
24 patients were on the third floor --" and awhile ago you said on the fifth
25 and fourth floor -- "and the Serbian patients were on the first and second
Page 8142
1 floor because the personnel were afraid of NATO bombings. I could not
2 leave the hospital because I was told that I would not be able to enter
3 the hospital again."
4 So if on the -- if you're on the second floor, you are safe from
5 the bombing, and if you're on the third floor, then you'll get killed by
6 the bombing. Is that something that was explained to you in the hospital?
7 What kind of rule is this? Who explained this to you?
8 A. Nobody explained it to me, but I saw it myself that they took some
9 people and took them up, and they -- and they kept the Serbs down below.
10 And they told the Albanians, "You've got nothing to do down there, you get
11 downstairs." And they didn't give us hardly any bread and they didn't
12 give me any at all.
13 Q. So do you claim that in the Pristina hospital, in the Pristina
14 hospital Serbs and Albanians who were patients were divided according to
15 floors and that on the floor where they were Albanian patients, there
16 weren't any Serb patients, and where the Serb patients were, there weren't
17 any Albanian patients on that floor? Is that what you're claiming? Just
18 say yes or no.
19 A. I'm telling you --
20 MR. NICE: Your Honour --
21 A. -- but it's not like -- the Albanians were on the higher floors
22 and the Serbs were down on the lower floors. And the doctors decided on
23 that.
24 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.
25 MR. NICE: Forgive my interrupting you. It's a matter of policy.
Page 8143
1 I've raised it before. This is an aggressive cross-examination without a
2 positive case against a woman who is extremely vulnerable according to all
3 the learning. I've raised before whether a man who has no apparent
4 sympathy for victims should be allowed to cross-examine witnesses like
5 this, and I must repeat our concern.
6 We know imperfectly, others know better, the damage that is done
7 and is sometimes intended to be done to witnesses in this position by this
8 form of cross-examination. It is distasteful and, in my respectful
9 submission, should be carefully monitored.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, we have to disagree. The accused is
12 entitled to cross-examine. If he's doing it improperly, we'll stop him.
13 Now, it may be distasteful to you. It may be distasteful to
14 others that no word of remorse is mentioned, but that doesn't matter. As
15 far as the trial is concerned, the accused is entitled, provided he
16 doesn't overstep the mark, provided he didn't oppress the witness, he's
17 entitled to put his case. You may not think there's very much in it, but
18 nonetheless, he's entitled to put it.
19 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I shan't take any more of your time save
20 to say of course I quite understand those concerns and the general
21 principles that guide them. I am also acutely aware of the fact that
22 learning about the associated problems of this type of witness has come
23 more recently to my practice in such cases and therefore is something to
24 which all of us may have only limited access, and I speak, therefore, out
25 of an abundance of caution. Thank you for the time.
Page 8144
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Page 8145
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to say that I would fully
2 concur with what Mr. Nice said if I would even faintly believe that the
3 witness were telling the truth. However, I'm convinced that the witness
4 is not telling the truth. And in this statement that she gave two and a
5 half years later, she added some complete falsehoods, as can be seen from
6 other parallel statements --
7 JUDGE MAY: That's a matter of argument. What comes out of it is
8 this: You are entitled to cross-examine. But on the other hand, bear in
9 mind, of course, the nature of the witness who you are cross-examining.
10 And whether you accept it or not, many have been through very traumatic
11 experiences, and that should be reflected in the way that they're treated
12 in this court. That certainly is said.
13 Yes, let's go on.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I respect the fact that
15 many witnesses have lived through many terrible things during the war,
16 certainly, but I don't see what this has to do with the accusations
17 levelled against me.
18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Please. Now, let's look at the last paragraph of your statement.
20 I started from the end, and I'll go back to other questions.
21 So you left the hospital. You were there for 12 days or 14 days.
22 That is no longer relevant. What is relevant is that in the hospital,
23 there was segregation between the Albanians and the Serbs. That is to say
24 that the Albanians were discriminated against. It is your claim that the
25 Albanians were not fed, that the Serbs were fed, and so on and so forth,
Page 8146
1 these few things. And that, practically, in this overcrowded hospital in
2 Pristina during the war, you were raped.
3 JUDGE MAY: Now, amongst other rules which you know, speech-making
4 is not questioning. Now, what is the question of the witness?
5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Please. Where did they take you? They took you out of your
7 brother's room; is that right?
8 A. No, they didn't take me from my brother's room but they took me
9 downstairs. I don't understand the --
10 Q. Where from? Where did they take you from? You were in the same
11 room where your brother was. How many other patients were there in the
12 room? Your brother was not the only patient in that room; isn't that
13 right?
14 A. Where my brother was, there were -- there were other people there,
15 three other people. But I don't understand whether Milosevic is talking
16 about when I came to the hospital or when I left. Because when they took
17 me away, I wasn't with my brother.
18 Q. Well, you say that you spent 14 days with your brother in the
19 hospital, or 12 days at the hospital.
20 A. That's right. But it was the first day when they took us to the
21 yard. They took my brother upstairs, and they took me down to the
22 basement. And I stayed all the night in the basement, and I went up
23 looking for my brother, and I went up and found him upstairs. And I
24 stayed 12 or 13 days, and then when we left, I went to the bus station,
25 and we went together to my aunt's in (redacted).
Page 8147
1 Q. All right. Tell me, did you find your brother after the rape?
2 Before the rape, you were not with your brother?
3 A. We came to the hospital together and then they separated us. And
4 my brother was sent upstairs, and I was sent downstairs, and I was raped.
5 And I went upstairs and I looked for my brother and found him. And from
6 then on, I was hiding from people in uniform because I was scared of being
7 raped again.
8 Q. And you said that you were hiding in your brother's bed and in
9 toilets all that time; is that right?
10 JUDGE MAY: She's explained that she was hiding from the men in
11 uniform. That was her explanation earlier.
12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. All right. Let us look at this last paragraph now too. You say:
14 "I arrived in (redacted) with my brother on the bus. There were only Serbs
15 on the bus. When we got out of the bus, we went in the direction where my
16 aunt lives. Along the road there were only Serbs. On the way, I was
17 fixing the shoelace of my brother's shoe." That is to say, you bent down
18 to do that; right? "At that moment, I was surrounded by about 20 Serb
19 policemen and some civilians. I cannot tell their number. They asked me,
20 What did you put on the ground? I said, Nothing. One from the crowd
21 spoke to me and said if they found anything, they would kill both me and
22 my brother. Then one civilian came and put a hand grenade on the ground
23 while the rest of the crowd went away. The policeman talking to me said
24 to me, Look what you did. You put the hand grenade on the ground."
25 Did you put a hand grenade on the ground or not?
Page 8148
1 A. No. On the road when I was going to my aunt, I tied my brother's
2 shoelaces, and they came up to me and said, "What are you doing?" And I
3 said, "I'm tying up my brother's shoes." And then a civilian put a
4 grenade by my foot, and I told them that I -- I hadn't dropped this on the
5 ground but they had planted it there. That's what I said.
6 Q. All right. All right. And then you say the following: "The man
7 -- Look at what you did, you put the hand grenade on the ground. I said,
8 He put it, pointing at the civilian, and then the policeman said in
9 Albanian, And take your brother and go home. The man who put the grenade
10 on the ground followed us to my aunt's house."
11 So nothing happened to you then; right?
12 A. No. Nothing happened to me then because we didn't take up the
13 grenade. But they merely followed us. And when we went to my aunt's
14 house, we went in and they followed me on the way.
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters request the witness to speak
16 more slowly.
17 JUDGE MAY: You're being asked, Witness K31, if you would speak
18 more slowly, by the interpreters.
19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. It is your explanation that from time to time you had to move from
21 your house to a safer place from when the offensive, as you had put it,
22 started in January 1999. At that time, there was fighting between the KLA
23 and the Serb army. Is that correct?
24 A. The Serbian army, yes, but there was no KLA around there at the
25 time.
Page 8149
1 Q. I had to find that page of yours. All right. Let's not waste any
2 time. I can't -- all right.
3 You went into the mountains. Who suggested that to you? Who
4 suggested that you should go to the mountains? How did you decide to go
5 to the mountains?
6 A. We didn't decide to go to the mountains, but we live in the
7 mountains. That municipality where I live, it's all very mountainous.
8 Q. At that time you didn't see any Serbs; is that right?
9 A. That day, in the morning? What day do you mean?
10 Q. "At (redacted) in the morning on the (redacted) of May, my mother
11 woke up hearing gunshots nearby." So that's the (redacted) of May.
12 A. That's what happened in the early morning (redacted)of May [as
13 interpreted]. My mother heard gunshots and woke up and got us up, and we
14 went out and we joined a convoy and we -- we left. But my elderly
15 relatives couldn't walk, and they just came up to us -- oh, I'm sorry.
16 The Serbian forces just kept on drawing closer to us, and that's what
17 happened. And at that moment, at (redacted), they killed my cousin. He
18 asked for help and we saw him, but we didn't dare go to his aid.
19 Q. Wait a minute, please. Let me just ask you another question. I
20 asked you about whether you saw any Serbs on that day when you were
21 fleeing into the mountains. So I'm reading page 6, on the first page of
22 your statement [as interpreted], which says: "In the morning of the
23 (redacted) my mother woke up hearing gunshots nearby. My
24 mother woke all the family members and after we got dressed, we decided to
25 go to the nearby mountain." Et cetera, et cetera. "We were leaving the
Page 8150
1 house, we could hear gunshot bursts and shelling from the direction of the
2 main road leading from Pristina to Skopje. As we were fleeing towards the
3 mountain, we couldn't see any Serbs who we knew were close to the
4 village."
5 Now, I asked you whether you had seen any Serbs. Did you or did
6 you not?
7 A. We only saw -- how shall I explain? We only saw the smoke of
8 burning houses and heard people shouting. I didn't actually see the Serbs
9 because they hadn't drawn close enough. But later, I did see them. I saw
10 them 15 metres away, and they were talking in their language and insulting
11 us, and I saw them in a line.
12 Q. All right. So did you see Serbs or did you not see Serbs, then,
13 when you were fleeing into the mountains?
14 A. We didn't go in the direction of the mountains, but that place is
15 called the mountains. And we saw them, but they -- at that moment, they
16 didn't see us.
17 JUDGE MAY: We're going to adjourn now for the break.
18 Witness K31, could you remember during the break not to speak to
19 anybody about your evidence until it's over, and that includes the members
20 of the Prosecution team. Could you be back, please, in 20 minutes.
21 --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 12.42 p.m.
23 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you have ten minutes left with this
24 witness.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I've lost a lot of time because I
Page 8151
1 didn't know about the second statement, and as you were able to see, I had
2 to clear up that second statement, Mr. May. So I have several more
3 essential questions for this witness. And I checked it out --
4 JUDGE MAY: Very well. You can have ten minutes more. Twenty
5 minutes.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just ask this: I heard during
7 the break that there is no sound from this session or distorted image or
8 anything else. According to your rules, how come this is a super
9 protected witness with no sound, no image, distorted or otherwise, voice
10 distortion or anything else?
11 JUDGE MAY: It's closed session, which means just that, closed.
12 Completely closed. There is no sound, no image, nothing.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Then I'll continue with
14 my questions.
15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Those who had their papers went abroad, the others, who didn't,
17 went up into the mountains; is that true? That's what you explained;
18 right?
19 A. Yes, that's what I explained, but I said earlier it's at a place
20 called (Redacted). It's not really a mountain, it's
21 just a place called (redacted).
22 Q. All right. Now, you described the killing of your neighbour,
23 (redacted). You didn't see who shot at him, did you?
24 A. Yes, I did see it.
25 Q. "While we were in the mountains, one of my neighbours, (redacted)
Page 8152
1 (redacted), went away from the group to see if the road was free and when he
2 had gone about 50 metres, I heard a shot and saw that he was hit by a
3 bullet. And in my opinion, the bullet had been fired from a distance of
4 about 200 metres. (redacted) fell to the ground," et cetera. So you didn't
5 see who actually did the shooting, did you?
6 A. It wasn't one person, it was a whole group of people, of Serbs. I
7 didn't see all of them. One of them I did see. I saw -- he had a bullet
8 wound on his neck. But there was a group of people ten metres away, and
9 we saw them pointing their automatic weapons, and there was firing. And
10 we saw where the firing was coming from.
11 Q. So you saw that the shooting was coming from a distance of about
12 200 metres. That's what you said. Not 15 metres, 200 metres. And the
13 people who were 20 metres away from you were a group of Serb soldiers.
14 That's right, isn't it?
15 A. Later we were 20 metres from the soldiers, but there we were 50
16 metres away. And they shot. There wasn't just one of them, there was a
17 whole group.
18 Q. Yes. Yes, but you said that the shooting, in your opinion, was
19 coming from 200 metres away.
20 A. Yes, I think it was about that.
21 Q. All right. You also go on to explain that your brother was hit.
22 However, you didn't see who shot at your brother, did you? That's right,
23 isn't it?
24 A. At (redacted) in the afternoon, I was with my father a bit farther up,
25 to see what was going on at the edge, and we saw them armed, coming at us.
Page 8153
1 And I said to my father and to my brother, "Get away, because they'll
2 catch you when they come." So they went 10, 15 metres away, one in one
3 direction, one in the other direction. And then he was -- he was hit. I
4 saw it because there was a sort of fence there.
5 Q. All right. Now, is it true that in that particular place at that
6 particular time there was fighting going on between the army and the KLA?
7 A. I don't think that's true. I saw Serbs there. I didn't see
8 anyone else. They came and they burnt the houses down, and they murdered
9 and marauded.
10 Q. I'm talking about what you say happened in the forest. That means
11 that there was fighting going on at that time; right? Yes or no.
12 A. There was an offensive. Whether we wanted it or not, they were
13 attacking and we were surrounded. They captured everyone and started
14 murdering. That's what happened. There was nothing else.
15 Q. Yes, all right. But is it true that it was the army precisely
16 that helped you? The soldiers?
17 A. What, what army? Who helped us? No one helped us.
18 Q. I'll read out on page 4 of your statement, the middle paragraph
19 there, says the following: "When I realised the situation of my brother
20 and sister, I asked help from the Serb soldiers, but they would not reply
21 to my request. They said that they couldn't help me because the
22 terrorists might kill them."
23 That's what you claim. That means that at that particular time,
24 there was shooting going on, and that they weren't able to help you
25 because they were afraid of the fire coming from the opposite side; right?
Page 8154
1 Is that what it says? Is that so or is it not?
2 A. That's what they said. But they weren't killing terrorists, they
3 were murdering us.
4 Q. All right. Let me read the paragraph out until the end. "After
5 that, I went to a middle-aged soldier, I grabbed his arm and took him to
6 the place my sister and brother were lying." That's what it says. "This
7 soldier spoke Albanian. After I took him to my brother, he called by
8 radio another group which came ten minutes later and gave my brother first
9 aid. They also advised me to take my brother to the school at(redacted) to
10 another group which would then take my brother to Pristina for treatment."
11 That's what you said.
12 Therefore, at the beginning, they told you that they couldn't help
13 you because they would be subject to gunfire and the terrorists might kill
14 them. Then you grabbed a soldier by the arm, and he came and called
15 someone up on the radio, administered first aid to your brother, sent your
16 brother to the school at (redacted), and then took you to hospital in an
17 APC. Does that mean from what you yourself say here both that there was
18 fighting and that the army and soldiers helped you or does it not mean
19 that? Just say yes or no.
20 JUDGE MAY: She can't answer yes or no.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it's not the way you say. They
22 were killing people. How can they help people that they were trying to
23 kill? There were no terrorists around.
24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Well, I'm not saying anything. I'm not claiming anything, Madam
Page 8155
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Page 8156
1 K31. I'm not saying anything. All I was doing was quoting from your own
2 statement, and what I'm asking you emerges from your statement. These are
3 all things that you yourself said, not me.
4 A. I don't regret what I said. That's the way it was. There was
5 radio communication to help us, but there were -- I saw what was going on.
6 I saw exactly what was going on. You're making me nervous, you're trying
7 to make me guilty of something, and I don't accept what you're
8 insinuating.
9 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Just a moment.
10 Witness K31, there's no need to feel that. The accused is asking
11 you some questions which arise from your statement, you see, in which you
12 did say that an Albanian-speaking soldier called for help on the radio,
13 and somebody came and gave your brother first aid.
14 Is that right? Did that happen?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's true. They gave first
16 aid to my brother. A soldier gave him first aid. And at the same time, a
17 group of soldiers murdered my sister and several other people, four or
18 five other people. And we were surprised that my brother was given first
19 aid, where at the same time they were murdering other people.
20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. And was it obvious to you that the shooting was coming at your
22 group and that the Serb soldiers were with you in that group? So it
23 wasn't, in fact, coming from the Serb group, it was coming from the KLA
24 which the Serbs were fighting.
25 A. No, that's not true. There was no KLA there where we were, in our
Page 8157
1 village, in that place.
2 Q. How do you explain, then, the fact that in the first part of that
3 paragraph which I quoted, when you asked for help and they said they
4 couldn't give you any help because they might be killed by the terrorists,
5 just as you did not help your neighbour because you were afraid of being
6 shot by a bullet, and in the same way they weren't able to help your
7 brother at that particular moment because they were afraid of being shot
8 by a bullet until you had solved the situation with the help of this
9 soldier in another way. Is that right or not?
10 JUDGE MAY: That's not a question. That's not a question. No
11 need to respond to that. It's a comment if it's anything.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, all right, then.
13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Is it true that that neighbour of yours - I don't want to have to
15 search for his name again - was shot from a distance, in your opinion, of
16 200 metres? Is that right? And the soldiers who were with you and
17 assisted your brother were there with you in the same place, in that same
18 spot. They weren't able to help him from a distance, they had to tend to
19 him and bandage his wounds there where you were on that spot, together
20 with you; right?
21 A. It's not exact, because we changed the place where we were. It
22 wasn't the same place where we were with (Redacted). We were afraid of
23 staying there and went a bit farther on, 50, 60 metres farther on. And
24 when we went there, they really did give my brother first aid, that's
25 true, but we were afraid -- they said they were afraid of the KLA. And I
Page 8158
1 said, "There's no KLA here. Help my brother. There -- no one will do
2 anything to you. No one will murder you here." Because I was sure that
3 there was no KLA there.
4 Q. They didn't seem to share your opinion, but let's move on with the
5 questions.
6 A. Okay.
7 Q. So after that, anyway, they took you to the hospital; right? They
8 helped you there on the spot and then took you to hospital; right?
9 A. They sent us to the school in (Redacted) and then to the bridge, and
10 then in (Redacted) to (Redacted) and then to the hospital. It was a long
11 road. They were beating us all the time. I had -- my hands were
12 tied up during all the journey.
13 Q. This doesn't seem very probable to me, because in your statement
14 you make no mention anywhere of the fact that they beat you. You just
15 said that they wanted to throw you into the river. Now you say that they
16 beat you throughout that journey, you and your brother to whom they had
17 given assistance and help, is that what you're saying, on the road to the
18 hospital?
19 A. Down to the bridge they didn't beat me. But when they tried to
20 throw me into the river, then from that time right to the hospital, they
21 would beat me. They tore my hair. All -- they were really hard with me
22 all the way to the hospital in Prishtina.
23 Q. And all that was going on in this APC, this armoured personnel
24 carrier in which they were transporting you and your brother to hospital
25 in?
Page 8159
1 A. From the school in (Redacted) to (Redacted), we were in an armoured
2 personnel carrier, but from (Redacted) to Pristina hospital, it was
3 another vehicle. There were two vehicles involved.
4 Q. Well, in which vehicle did they beat you? Tell me that, please.
5 I don't understand.
6 A. They beat me in the vehicle where there was a bit of space to
7 beat, whereas in the other vehicle, it was too enclosed, it was too narrow
8 and there was no room to beat anyone.
9 Q. That means in that second vehicle in which they transported you
10 from (Redacted) to the hospital; right? That's where they beat you.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And who was in that vehicle? Was it a van? Was it a small car?
13 Was it a bus? What type of vehicle was it?
14 A. It was sort of like a kombi, but there was little room. It was
15 like a van, but there was not too much room in it.
16 Q. Who was inside with you?
17 A. One had come from (Redacted), and others got in later, from reserve.
18 Q. And so who beat you, then?
19 A. The person who tried to throw me off the bridge into the river,
20 who had bound my hands. The same person and others who were with him.
21 Q. It was that same man, was it? But you said that you reached the
22 bridge in an APC and that they took you out of the APC at the bridge. Now
23 you're saying that they beat you in the vehicle in which you went from
24 (Redacted)to Pristina. How could that same man who was in the transporter
25 be found in this vehicle going to Pristina from (Redacted)? Answer me
Page 8160
1 that, please.
2 A. Okay, I will answer you. The person who had tried to throw me off
3 the bridge, he had a long beard, and he kept making gestures, like this.
4 But it was very, very -- we were very close. He had an automatic weapon.
5 And when we got into a bigger vehicle, there were three people in it.
6 They tried to rip off my clothes with their knives, with all three of
7 them, but the one with the beard was right beside me all the time. I was
8 crying all the time.
9 Q. So they wanted to rip your clothes off in the vehicle that you
10 were riding in together with your brother, who was wounded, from
11 (Redacted) to the hospital in Pristina; is that what you're saying?
12 A. Yes. Yes, that's the way it was.
13 Q. So your wounded brother was in the vehicle, you were in the
14 vehicle, and these three men. Were they soldiers, policemen? What were
15 they? They were soldiers; right?
16 A. I was so horrified, but I did see police and military uniforms,
17 and they were armed. They were really fully armed.
18 Q. All right. Now, did I understand you correctly to say that the
19 man with the beard who was with you was both in the APC and later on in
20 this other vehicle from (Redacted) to Pristina? Is that right?
21 A. Yes. Yes. To Pristina. And the first one who raped me at the
22 hospital, he was there.
23 Q. And that's the one with the beard; right?
24 A. Yes. And during the offensive where they killed my father and my
25 brother, he had a bandanna around his head, but then he'd taken -- and it
Page 8161
1 said "Massacre" written on it, but later on, he took it off.
2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, this will be your last question.
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Did I understand you correctly? The man who was in the APC,
5 within the team in the APC and who took you to the bridge and wanted to
6 throw you into the river and brought you to the school in (Redacted)in the
7 APC, he left the APC, got into the other vehicle with you, beat you on the
8 way, and when they took you to the hospital with your brother, that same
9 man found you and raped you. Is that what you're saying?
10 A. He was with me all the time, right behind me. Not from the site
11 with the APC. We went to the school within half an hour, that first half
12 hour, and there was no problem there. We didn't know what was going on.
13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Wladimiroff, have you any questions?
14 MR. WLADIMIROFF: One thing, Your Honour.
15 Questioned by Mr. Wladimiroff:
16 Q. Witness, do you speak Serbian?
17 A. No, I don't. A little, a very little bit.
18 Q. Can you read Serbian letters, Cyrillic letters?
19 A. Not really. A little bit.
20 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Thank you. That's all I ask.
21 MS. ROMANO: I will be brief, Your Honours. I have just two or
22 three matters.
23 Re-examined by Ms. Romano:
24 Q. Do you need some water, Witness?
25 A. Thank you.
Page 8162
1 Q. Witness, you heard the accused saying that everything you said in
2 the second statement about the rape that was committed against you, it's
3 not true. So you heard the accused saying that you made up everything.
4 What would be your reaction to that accusation, to that suggestion that
5 you made all this up? Can you tell the Judges what would be your
6 reaction?
7 A. I would say that's true. Yes, I did experience that myself. And
8 you may not -- other people may not believe it, but I was a virgin. I'd
9 never had relations with others. And now I'm terribly frightened of
10 people with beards. You can believe me or not, whether you want to or
11 not, but that's what I went through. And if it wasn't the truth that I
12 was telling you, I wouldn't have bothered to come here to tell you
13 anything but the truth.
14 Q. Thank you, Witness.
15 A. Really, I insist. That's really the truth.
16 Q. Thank you. Witness, it took almost three years for you to tell
17 your mother and also to give the statement about the rape. During all
18 this time, you did not tell anybody. Why is that? Why is that so
19 difficult for a girl like you to tell people about what happened to you,
20 especially in Kosovo?
21 A. It's terrible to speak about such things in Kosova. You -- it's
22 not -- Albanian women are not looked upon well if they -- they have to
23 suffer in silence. I had -- I was frightened that if people knew that I
24 had been raped, that no one would ever marry me or want to marry me, and
25 that's why I didn't mention it.
Page 8163
1 The first time they asked, there were local interpreters there,
2 but I told them about it, and they told me not to worry about it. But
3 there were children around, and people were worried about me, and I didn't
4 know exactly what to do.
5 Q. Do people not understand or help?
6 A. Well, maybe there are some people who are helpful, but it's hard
7 to say. You can never really know.
8 Q. Witness, do you see any reason for you to lie, to create something
9 like this, in light of the fact of what you've just said?
10 A. No. I have no reason to lie. Why would I want to lie? I
11 experienced these things, and I want to tell them as they happened.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MS. ROMANO: Your Honours, in light of the observations made by
14 Mr. Milosevic about the proceedings in closed session, I respectfully
15 request the Chamber to remind Mr. Milosevic about the proceedings that
16 involve a closed session regarding communications outside the Court.
17 JUDGE MAY: He knows what the rules are. He said he would obey
18 them.
19 MS. ROMANO: No. I said that --
20 JUDGE MAY: There should be no disclosure.
21 MS. ROMANO: Exactly. I just said that he seemed to not
22 understand what was happening and why there was no sound and everything.
23 This is not the first time that a closed session had taken place.
24 JUDGE MAY: He knows now.
25 MS. ROMANO: That's all, Your Honours.
Page 8164
1 JUDGE MAY: Witness K31, thank you for coming to the Tribunal to
2 give your evidence. You are free to go.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Would you be so kind, Mr. May, as to
5 explain to me, please, that is to say a moment ago Ms. Romano said that
6 this is not the first time we've had a closed session, and that's quite
7 true, but the first time we did have a closed session was, I if recall --
8 this is the first time we had a closed session with a witness. Up 'til
9 now, they had face or voice distortion, but we didn't have a closed
10 session for witnesses. So I don't understand why it is necessary to have
11 a completely closed session for this particular witness.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's not so, Mr. Milosevic, because we have had
13 other female witnesses in the same situation as this particular witness
14 and in closed session.
15 JUDGE KWON: K15, K14, K20, K16; all those witnesses.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I completely -- does that mean that
17 these transcripts are not made public either, the LiveNote from the closed
18 sessions are not made public either?
19 JUDGE MAY: That's right. They're not public. They're closed.
20 And you know the reason in this case why they are closed.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 MS. ROMANO: Your Honours, the next witness is K24 and is also in
23 closed session.
24 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
25 [The witness entered court]
Page 8165
1 WITNESS: WITNESS K24
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
5 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
6 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.
7 MS. ROMANO: Your Honours, can I have this document shown to the
8 witness. It's a one-page document with the name and date of birth of the
9 witness.
10 Examined by Ms. Romano:
11 Q. Witness, could you please review the paper that is in front of
12 you, and can you tell with a yes or no if this is your name and your date
13 of birth.
14 A. Yes, that's right.
15 Q. Do you see a number on this sheet, "K24"?
16 A. Yes, I can see it.
17 Q. Throughout these proceedings, you will be referred to as you K24.
18 Do you understand that?
19 A. Yes, I understand that.
20 MS. ROMANO: Might the document be tendered into evidence under
21 seal?
22 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 268.
23 MS. ROMANO:
24 Q. Witness, you gave a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor on
25 the 22nd of November, 1999. Is that correct?
Page 8166
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Page 8167
1 A. Yes, that's correct.
2 Q. And you attended a meeting on the 15th of July, 2002
3 reviewed that statement before a presiding officer of the Registrar and
4 members of the Prosecutor, and you confirmed that that statement is
5 correct and true; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, that's right.
7 Q. And in that opportunity, you also made an addendum to that
8 statement, correcting some minor issues, and also you were shown
9 photographs and you explained each one of the photographs; is that
10 correct?
11 A. Yes, that's right.
12 MS. ROMANO: The Prosecution formally submits the statement and
13 the addendum into evidence.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 269 and 269A for the redacted
15 version.
16 MS. ROMANO: The witness is a (Redacted) Kosovo Albanian woman
17 whose statement deals with events in the spring 1999 when she was staying
18 at her parents' house (Redacted) municipality, a village occupied
19 entirely by Kosovo Albanians. (Redacted)
20 (Redacted).
21 Early one morning at the end of March, beginning of April, VJ
22 soldiers arrived and surrounded the village, and for safety reasons, the
23 witness and some other women and children, numbering 22 in total, hid in a
24 house on a hill further up the village. The men, including her father and
25 brother, fled to the mountains.
Page 8168
1 The following morning, soldiers arrived at the house where the women and
2 children were sheltering. The women and children were searched and robbed
3 and their IDs confiscated. They were then ordered to walk to (Redacted)and
4 were escorted by armed VJ soldiers. However, before arriving at (Redacted)
5 they were intercepted by a VJ truck and ordered to return to (Redacted).
6 The women and children were held at a house in (Redacted)for three days.
7 During this time, they were searched and robbed again by a Serb-speaking
8 woman named Mirdita, who assisted the soldiers. The women and children
9 from (Redacted)were then ordered to walk to the mosque in (Redacted).
10 The witness heard various reasons why they had to go to (Redacted). One
11 soldier said it was to protect them from NATO bombing. Mirdita said,
12 "They're asking for a group of you there," but gave no further
13 explanations. When they reached(Redacted), the soldiers directed the
14 women and children to a house near the mosque where they were held in a
15 cowshed.The VJ soldiers who escorted them handed them over to the soldiers
16 with tiger badges on their arms.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Could Ms. Romano please slow down. Thank you.
18 MS. ROMANO: I apologise and I will slow down.
19 The women were robbed and threatened before being taken out in
20 groups to be checked. The witness was told by her cousin, aunt and sister
21 how they had been forced to strip naked and the soldiers touched their
22 breasts and vagina. She also testifies that (Redacted)
23 (Redacted), the soldiers also forced her to strip and touched
24 her breasts and vagina. On two separate occasions, soldiers removed their
25 lower garments, and the witness believes that they wanted to rape her.
Page 8169
1 On the first occasion, the witness fainted, and on the second
2 occasion, the soldier threatened to cut her (Redacted) but did not
3 rape her.
4 The witness describes the physical and emotional condition of
5 women who were "checked" and the comments they made. The witness believes
6 that some of the other women and girls had been raped.
7 The soldier removed five younger women and three older women from
8 the group. One of the soldiers made a comment in Albanian, implying that
9 the women were going to die. The witness believes the older women were
10 killed immediately, as she heard three shots from outside. The five
11 younger women, one of whom was the witness's sister, failed to return.
12 The witness subsequently discovered that all eight women had been found
13 dead (Redacted), near the shed where they had all been held. (Redacted)
14 (Redacted).
15 In the addendum made by the witness, there are photographs of the
16 wells and the place where the witness was held, and she describes and
17 identifies all the witness [sic].
18 Unless the Judges want, I will not show the witness the photos.
19 JUDGE MAY: No, but I think formally they should be exhibited.
20 MS. ROMANO: Yes. They are part of the addendum. If you want to
21 exhibit them separately --
22 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let them be exhibited formally. We'll need some
23 copies for the Court. They can be given an exhibit number.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number 269B, to be kept under seal.
25 MS. ROMANO: There are copies, although black and white, attached
Page 8170
1 to the statement.
2 JUDGE KWON: Are they also part of the (Redacted)binder?
3 MS. ROMANO: No, they are not. The (Redacted) binder contains only
4 the autopsy -- the forensic report.
5 MR. WLADIMIROFF: It may assist the Court that it is a part of the
6 (Redacted) binder, under tab 7.
7 MS. ROMANO: No, I'm sorry, the tab was deleted.
8 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Tab 8.
9 MS. ROMANO: It was also -- I think it was removed. When the
10 binders were disclosed to the amici and the accused, they contained the
11 photos, but after, according to a ruling, we removed.
12 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Right.
13 MS. ROMANO: And we are formally introducing to the witness.
14 JUDGE MAY: Whatever. It's right that they should be exhibited
15 and exhibited separately now.
16 Yes. Now, Mr. Milosevic, have you got any questions of this
17 witness?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do, Mr. May.
19 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Tell me, please, first of all - I did not
21 understand from this statement - you say that you were in your parents'
22 house in the village of (Redacted). Which municipality is this?
23 A. This village is in the municipality of (Redacted).
24 Q. Yes. You say that you left the village after the bombing started,
25 and you do not know on which day or date the bombing started and you left.
Page 8171
1 A. No, I don't know the date.
2 Q. It was my understanding that you left the village because you
3 thought that you were safer if you'd leave the village. Is that right?
4 A. We left and we went up above, and we left our house behind to take
5 shelter further up.
6 Q. All right. You don't know the time, and you don't know -- you say
7 that was after NATO had started the bombing in 1999. After how much time?
8 Was it a day or two or five days or a month after NATO started bombing?
9 Could you give us just an approximation?
10 A. No. I don't know how long after the start of the bombing it was.
11 Q. All right. You came to your relative's house, and he went into
12 the mountains the same night; is that right?
13 A. I didn't understand the question. Could you repeat it, please?
14 Q. I asked you when you went to the mountains, when you left the
15 village, you came where? You came to your relative's house, if I
16 understood you correctly.
17 A. That's right. We left my own family home and went up to my
18 cousin's to take shelter, for security reasons.
19 Q. And where did this relative of yours live?
20 A. A few metres further up, above our house. About one kilometre.
21 Q. All right. That means that you just moved into the neighbourhood.
22 You moved into the house next door. Is that right?
23 A. Yes. It was within the same village.
24 Q. And why did you think that you were safer in the house next door
25 rather than in your own house if it's only a few metres away?
Page 8172
1 A. Because we were facing up to the Yugoslav army. So to avoid them,
2 we went up the hill, took shelter some distance away.
3 Q. And what about the members of your family, your husband and the
4 others? Were they members of the KLA?
5 A. No. My father, who was there with my brothers, were all civilians
6 and went out, took shelter in (Redacted).
7 Q. On page 3 in the Serbian version, in the first line, you say in
8 your statement: "My father and my other brothers went into the mountains
9 to hide. (Redacted)."
10 (Redacted), right? That's where the KLA forces were.
11 Are you now saying something different, or do you abide by what is written
12 in this statement of yours?
13 A. My husband did not fight. He was only on the KLA's list of
14 volunteers. He didn't have a uniform or weapons. He was a civilian
15 again.
16 Q. Ms. K24, I did not present a claim of my own. I quoted your
17 statement. The sentence is a very short one, and it reads: "(Redacted)
18 (Redacted)." That's it, from the first capital
19 letter until the full stop at the end. So is that uncontested or not?
20 A. I can only say that my husband was a KLA volunteer on the list,
21 but he didn't have a uniform or a weapon, and I don't know what else to
22 say.
23 Q. And on page 8 of your statement, in connection with the
24 description of this friend of yours, a person, I don't know how to call
25 her, Mirdita, she was also KLA. It says in the penultimate paragraph --
Page 8173
1 the one before the penultimate paragraph, actually: "I met with my
2 husband two months after the peace agreement was signed. He fought in the
3 KLA for six months in (Redacted)." And then further on, he says to you
4 that he saw Mirdita in (Redacted) before what happened in (Redacted),
5 uniform, that she cooperated with the army, et cetera, et cetera.
6 So in two places in the statement, you say that your husband was
7 with the KLA, in the KLA. I'm asking you quite precisely now: Did you
8 move from your own house to the house next door because you thought that
9 the police that knew that your husband was a member of the KLA would come
10 to your house to look for him?
11 A. No. We didn't flee for that reason. We went away to protect
12 ourselves. We had children, (redacted); we just had to leave that
13 house and go to another one.
14 Q. All right. When you were with the army, you described that in
15 your statement. You say that they were correct when dealing with you.
16 And you say: "For three days, things were quite all right." That's the
17 beginning of page 4 in the Serbian version. "They brought us food, the
18 soldiers did, milk, cheese, whatever else they could find in different
19 houses, everything they could find. They brought us tea and sugar, and
20 there was a furnace there, but we could use it only for heating, however,
21 we could not use it for baking bread. We had to go upstairs. The
22 Yugoslav army soldiers allowed us to do this but not every time we asked,"
23 et cetera.
24 So were they correct towards you in every way?
25 A. No. It was only one day when they took us to that house. They
Page 8174
1 gave us food and drink, and I never saw them any more.
2 Q. I beg your pardon. Let me just remember the number. Oh, yes.
3 Ms. K24, I quoted your own statement to you a little while ago,
4 and you said, "For three days we were really fine," and then you say the
5 rest. I don't want to take up my time quoting it again. And then you say
6 that you were told by them to go to (redacted), but they said that to you
7 so that you could hide in the mosque, because NATO may bomb and kill you;
8 is that right?
9 A. Yes. In -- for three days we were together with them in
10 (redacted).
11 Q. All right. And after that, you left. Did you go to hide in the
12 mosque when they told you to hide in the mosque? Did you think that they
13 wished you well, that they wished to protect you because they assumed that
14 NATO would not bomb a mosque?
15 A. No, I don't think they wished us well. We only thought that
16 something worse awaited us. And that's what happened.
17 Q. Yes, but I understand your statement to say that these soldiers,
18 these men that you were with, did nothing to you during those few days
19 while they helped you and when they sent you to seek shelter in the
20 mosque. It was my understanding of what you wrote here that they took
21 care of you. They tried to help you. They tried to protect you from the
22 bombing, et cetera.
23 So who did something bad to you, they or somebody else?
24 A. The soldiers said that they would take us to the (redacted)mosque
25 to protect us, but they didn't take us there. They took us and left us in
Page 8175
1 the hands of criminals.
2 Q. Could you please explain this to me, clarify it for me: My
3 understanding of your statement was that the soldiers escorted you to
4 (redacted)for your own safety and security and that then you remained in
5 (redacted). What do you mean they left you in the hands of criminals?
6 You were not arrested to be handed over to someone. You stayed in
7 (redacted); is that right?
8 A. The three soldiers who took us to (redacted)left us in a yard.
9 One of them went and called the criminals.
10 Q. He went to call the criminals, this soldier who brought you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were these criminals some kind of thieves, bandits? What did they
13 look like?
14 A. They mistreated us. They insulted us. They swore at us. And
15 then they drowned my sister and my mother-in-law.
16 Q. All right. On the basis of what did you conclude that even if
17 some criminals did appear in (redacted), that it was that soldier who
18 called them? One of these who had been with you before that. On the
19 basis of what did you conclude that he was the one who called them?
20 A. I saw this. I saw them leaving us, and then they came back with
21 these criminals together with them.
22 Q. Well, did that soldier go, or rather, these three soldiers who
23 escorted you to (redacted)? Did they return to their unit, or did they
24 stay with these criminals too?
25 A. They went back to (redacted). They left us together with the
Page 8176
1 criminals.
2 Q. That actually means that they were not criminals but they were
3 connected to criminals. Would that approximately be the most correct way
4 of putting it?
5 A. I don't know how to explain this at the moment.
6 Q. When you say that some people misbehaved towards women who were
7 with you, you are actually referring to these criminals, aren't you?
8 You're referring to them.
9 A. Yes, criminals.
10 Q. And as far as I can see from your statement, you did not see them
11 rape any person. Is that correct?
12 A. It was me myself that they insulted and offended. I didn't see
13 any of the others.
14 Q. All right. But you see here on page 7 of your statement, in the
15 last paragraph, you say before that: "All of those who were from
16 (redacted) returned to (redacted). We returned to (redacted)when it got
17 dark. They put us into the -- they put us into the shed of a house that
18 was about 300 metres away, where they kept us locked. The house had been
19 burned. I don't know who it belonged to. They, the three soldiers, left us
20 there alone, saying, Nothing is going to happen to you. Do not be scared.
21 They brought us bread, a candle, (redacted), and they said,
22 Tomorrow we are going to find the girls and the women. They told us not to
23 go out because otherwise we would be in danger because of the
24 paramilitaries." "The paramilitaries" was probably written by the person
25 who actually wrote the statement. I imagine that you yourself were using
Page 8177
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Page 8178
1 the term "criminals"; is that right?
2 And you say further on: "They were showing --" I hear the
3 interpretation into Albanian finishing only now. So actually, what it
4 says here, "paramilitaries," that is what you have been calling
5 "criminals," right?
6 A. Yes, criminals.
7 MS. ROMANO: Just referring to the witness, she has not been given
8 an opportunity to respond to the questions.
9 JUDGE MAY: She's got as far as the criminals. Yes, what's the
10 next question?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, precisely, that's what I
12 wanted to establish, that these were criminals.
13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. So: "They brought us bread, a candle, (redacted), et
15 cetera. They told us not to go out because otherwise we would be in
16 danger of the criminals," as you put it, it says "paramilitaries" here.
17 And then further on, it says, "They were showing that they were trying to
18 protect us. We stayed in that house for ten days without a guard. The
19 three soldiers went back to (Redacted), but in the next-door house were
20 other Yugoslav army soldiers that said to us, Whatever you need, just call
21 us. After seven days, Mirdita came there and she stayed with us for three
22 days," et cetera, et cetera. "During those seven days, they (the
23 soldiers) came very often. They provoked us. They asked us for money."
24 So how did that change all of a sudden? First they did all of
25 this for you and they said, "Just call us if you need anything," and then
Page 8179
1 they started to provoke you, ask for money, and one of them even pointed a
2 gun at your head.
3 What happened? You say that this Mirdita came seven days later
4 and then something changed. What happened? Can you explain that?
5 A. When Mirdita came, she was in agreement with them, and we didn't
6 see them any more. We only communicated through Mirdita.
7 Q. But on the basis of what I've just quoted to you, Mrs. K24, on the
8 basis of that, can it be seen that you yourself wrote that the soldiers
9 brought you there, left you there, and that after that, for several days
10 other soldiers in the neighbourhood took care of you and none of those
11 three brought in any criminals?
12 You say here: "Three soldiers left us there on our own and said,
13 Nothing is going to happen to you. Do not be scared." And then they
14 brought all these things to you and then you say that you stayed there
15 without a guard for ten days in that house. Those soldiers went back to
16 (Redacted) and other Yugoslav army soldiers said to you, "Whatever you
17 need, just call us."
18 JUDGE MAY: It's now past quarter to and we have to adjourn. Is
19 there a question you want to ask?
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I don't want to maltreat
21 this witness. I don't want to keep her until tomorrow for the end. I
22 have just one more question, then I'll finish immediately, because I think
23 that she has suffered enough, and I really don't want to keep her here
24 overnight.
25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Page 8180
1 Q. Just tell me one more thing, please. You and Mirdita, as you've
2 described this here, you were taken to the hospital in (redacted) by the
3 Serbs. That is on page 03031924. Just say yes or no.
4 A. Yes. Yes. The Yugoslav army took us.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, that was a very appropriate
7 gesture.
8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Wladimiroff.
9 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No questions, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Ms. Romano.
11 MS. ROMANO: Just one question and I'll be very brief.
12 Re-examined by Ms. Romano:
13 Q. Witness, when you referred to the three men, the criminals, the
14 men that the soldiers called, were they wearing any -- how were they
15 dressed?
16 A. They had a uniform, light blue. It was a light colour with a
17 tiger sign on the arm.
18 Q. Thank you, Witness.
19 MS. ROMANO: Your Honours, it's just that I have -- you referred
20 to copies, separate copies of the photos.
21 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
22 MS. ROMANO: I just remind also that the description of the photos
23 and referred by the witness are in the addendum of the bis package.
24 No further questions.
25 JUDGE MAY: Witness K24, that concludes your evidence. Thank you
Page 8181
1 for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are now free to
2 go.
3 [The witness withdrew]
4 JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn now. Nine o'clock
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.
6 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 17th day of July,
7 2002, at 9.00 a.m.
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