1 Tuesday, 9 July 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

6 MR. SAXON: Your Honour?

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

8 MR. SAXON: I just have two brief points before the

9 cross-examination begins. The first point, based on something that was

10 raised by the accused at the end of yesterday's session, I checked on what

11 was Prosecution's Exhibit 245, and the original document that was in the

12 possession of the Office of the Prosecutor, the instructions that are part

13 of that exhibit are 13 pages. In other words, we only have the first 13

14 pages. That is simply all that we have of that document.

15 The second point I would just like to bring to the Court's

16 attention is that I have a long-standing medical appointment later this

17 morning, so I will probably stand up and leave the courtroom at about

18 10.00, and if there is any re-examination of this witness, Mr. Ryneveld

19 will take control of that.

20 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

21 WITNESS: SHUKRI ALIU [Resumed]

22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Is it true that from your superiors, on the eve

25 of the NATO bombing, you asked to take the first part of your holiday, to

1 go off on holiday on the 24th of March, 1999? Is that right?

2 A. No. I went on sick leave in February. I was using sick leave,

3 and I didn't return to my job.

4 Q. And the members of the KLA, did they threaten you and say that

5 unless you left the administration for the defence of Pristina that they

6 would kidnap your son Visar, and that they intercepted and threatened your

7 daughters Shpresa, Violeta and Goda, and did you suffer from these

8 threats? Did they threaten you, in fact?

9 A. These are lies on your part, and you're trying to manipulate

10 things. Nobody was scared of the KLA in Kosova. It was a glorious army

11 that fought for the rights of the people.

12 JUDGE MAY: No. Mr. Aliu, I know it's difficult being

13 cross-examined, but we don't want, I'm afraid, speeches. We just want an

14 answer. If it's not true, just say no.

15 Yes, Mr. Milosevic, what's the next question? Next question.

16 No. We will go on to the next question.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. All right. Now, is it true that your request to use your holiday

19 you explained by saying that you had been threatened by members of the

20 KLA?

21 A. It's not true.

22 Q. And is this true: That when you went on holiday because of all the

23 pressure exerted upon you and all the explanations that you gave, that you

24 cried in front of your friends and comrades?

25 JUDGE MAY: No. Mr. Milosevic, you mustn't misrepresent what the

1 witness said. He didn't say he went on holiday, he said he took sick

2 leave. But go on from there.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. All right, then. Take a look at this decision of the Federal

5 Ministry for Defence in which we can see that on the basis of the rules

6 and regulations to which this decision refers, Aliu Shukri, an employee of

7 the Federal Ministry for Defence of the Republic of Serbia, the

8 administration for the defence of Pristina, terminates his labour

9 relations as of the 12th of April, 1994 because he has not been to work.

10 You know that if you stay away from work for five days or more without

11 permission or without valid reasons given, then you are fired from your

12 job. Is that something that is contested?

13 A. I don't know what happened or what decision was taken at the

14 Defence Ministry or by Petar Ilic. After February, I didn't go to my

15 workplace any more, and I told you that before. And you yourself can show

16 that I didn't go to work.

17 Q. Yes. It says here in the administration document that Aliu Shukri

18 used the first part of his holiday for 1999 on the basis of the decision

19 of the 23rd of March, 1999, what I said a moment ago, and that it shall

20 last 13 working days beginning with the 24th up until the 9th of April,

21 1999. And he has to report to work on the 12th of April, 1999. I assume

22 that was a Monday.

23 MR. SAXON: Your Honour?

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. The individual did not report to work on the day specified, and he

1 did not --

2 JUDGE MAY: Hold on, Mr. Milosevic. There was an objection. Yes,

3 go on.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. As I was saying, the decision -- this document, in fact, describes

6 that as your leave, your holiday, expired, for which you received a

7 decision, you did not report to work for a full month after that, and that

8 on the basis of the law and the rules and regulations, another decision

9 was made, as it says here --

10 JUDGE MAY: Very well --

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. -- that your labour relations were terminated.

13 JUDGE MAY: One question at a time.

14 Yes, Mr. Saxon.

15 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, would it be possible for this document to

16 be shown to the witness so that he could review it and see if he's seen it

17 before.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes, I was going to finish with the cross-examination

19 on these points and then we're going to see if they were to be exhibited.

20 Have you got an English translation of that, Mr. Milosevic, or

21 not?

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, I do not have an English

23 translation, but I can hand this decision over to you and leave it with

24 you as evidence and proof that what I asked the witness is correct and

25 that his answer is not correct.

1 JUDGE MAY: We'll put it on the ELMO then.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You can have it. Here you are.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, let's put it on the ELMO and have a look at it.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is a two-page document.

5 JUDGE MAY: Now, look at that, Mr. Aliu, if you would.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we proceed?

7 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness -- let the witness deal with the

8 document first of all.

9 Have you seen that document before, Mr. Aliu?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I've never seen it before.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Since it's been put in front of you, help us,

12 what's the date of it?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll have a look. I can't make out

14 the date very well, but I have never seen this document, ever.

15 JUDGE MAY: Is there any comment you would wish to make about it

16 since it's been put to you?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May 1999. No. I have no comment on

18 this document. I've never seen it.

19 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time I've ever

21 seen anything of this kind.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. All right.

24 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Just a moment.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Aliu, the document, as I understand it and as

2 I understand Mr. Milosevic to be alleging, that document is saying that as

3 a result of your absence from work for a particular period of time, your

4 labour relations were terminated, which I take it to mean that you were

5 dismissed from your job. What do you have to say about that?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have nothing to say. As I said

7 before, after 15th of February, I never went to work. And they could --

8 they could have dismissed me from my work whenever they pleased. They had

9 no problem about that. But I never turned up to work.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Hand that, if you would, please, to the

12 Prosecution, and then we'll exhibit it.

13 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. I should just like to ask you one more thing, Mr. Shukri, with

16 respect to what we were discussing and linked to the document. What you

17 said was that it is a material fact that you didn't appear at work for a

18 long period of time. That's correct, isn't it?

19 A. I didn't go to work after 15th of February. That's the third time

20 I've said so.

21 Q. All right. Now, as you spent many years working in the state

22 administration, do you know that if you leave your place of employment

23 without any valid explanation or reason, your employment is terminated?

24 A. I went on -- didn't go to work on purpose.

25 Q. Well, all the more so, then. I assume that you were dismissed

1 pursuant to the law. Now, whether you yourself consider that that is a

2 procedure determined by law or whether you were dismissed because you were

3 an Albanian perhaps. What do you think?

4 JUDGE MAY: I don't think we can take this much further. He's

5 given his account of what happened. You've produced the document. Now,

6 it seems to me there's no point arguing any further about it.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. May.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Let's move on to your statement now. You said that in 1987, you

10 were subjected to an investigation with respect to the arming of Kosovo

11 Albanians with firearms and that you were taken before a military court in

12 Nis. That is what it says in paragraph 3 of the beginning of your

13 statement. And you say, "I went before the military court in Nis and was

14 found guilty and sentenced to three months' probation."

15 Now, as you were sentenced, although a very lenient sentence

16 because it was a conditional detention period, do you remember what you

17 were found guilty of and sentenced to for three months' probation? For

18 what? What act did you commit? What did it say in the sentence passed by

19 the military court in Nis which you received when you were proclaimed

20 guilty? What was the verdict?

21 A. You must ask the military court in Nis about that, whether I was

22 guilty or not. If I had been very guilty, I would no doubt have been

23 sentenced to many years in prison.

24 Q. That's not what I asked you. As you received the sentence and

25 verdict, what did it say in the sentence and judgement, that you were

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1 found guilty for arming Kosovo Albanians, or did it say something else in

2 the document of the sentence of judgement you received?

3 A. I was almost two years in front of the military court. This was

4 in 1987. And you can say what you want and write what you want, but I,

5 nevertheless, say that I never saw any of the things that you say

6 happened.

7 Q. And what things do I say happened?

8 JUDGE MAY: No. Now we're going round and round pointlessly. He

9 has described in his evidence in chief what happened as far as he knows.

10 Now, if you've got something to contradict it with, let's hear it.

11 Otherwise, let's move on.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Well, my question was: What were you found guilty of? Why were

14 you --

15 JUDGE MAY: He has told us --

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. -- sentenced? What was the verdict?

18 JUDGE MAY: He has told us. Now, let's move on.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. All right. Tell me, then, who was the commander of the

21 Territorial Defence of Kosovo, the headquarters where you worked at that

22 time, the TO staff?

23 A. Ali Muhaxhiri, General.

24 Q. That's right, General Ali Muhaxhiri, an Albanian. Precisely. And

25 he didn't receive you after that verdict. He didn't take you back to work

1 at the TO staff, did he?

2 A. No. I went to the Provincial Defence Secretariat, where Ismet

3 Krasniqi was my boss.

4 Q. Well, you say in your statement that you were not allowed to

5 return to the territorial headquarters, as far as I was able to

6 understand. Said, "When my profession was finished I was not allowed to

7 return to the territorial headquarters and to take up -- I was not

8 permitted to carry out the duties I previously performed." That's what

9 you say.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. He said he went on to another job.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. And after that, you claim that you just read the newspapers in

13 your office. You spent your time reading the newspapers; right?

14 A. Most of the time I read the newspapers. I had no duties at all.

15 Q. Well, all right, then. How did you become informed about the

16 questions and issues that you're testifying about here; from the

17 newspapers or in some other way?

18 A. I was at my workplace in my office at the secretariat, and the

19 information flowed all the time through the secretariat and to the army

20 corpus [as interpreted].

21 Q. All right. I didn't understand the end of your sentence from the

22 interpretation, but let's move on. You go on to speak about the Albanian

23 demonstrations in 1981, and you say that the Yugoslav leadership in 1981

24 considered these demonstrations to be contrary to the state, anti-state

25 demonstrations or words to that effect, something along those lines; is

1 that right?

2 A. Could you repeat the question, please?

3 Q. I understood you to be explaining that the Yugoslav government or,

4 rather, the Yugoslav leadership took these demonstrations to be anti-state

5 demonstrations in 1981; is that right? Demonstrations against the state;

6 right?

7 A. I don't know how the Yugoslav Presidency treated these

8 demonstrations because I wasn't a member of it. I only know that special

9 units of the Interior Ministry came to Kosova in 1981 and operated in

10 Kosova all the time from 1981 until the end of the war. The place where

11 the special units were is called Germija. In 1982, the same unit went to

12 kill Tahir Meha in Prekaz.

13 Q. So you're talking about the 1980s. Let's make that clear. Not

14 the 1990s. You're not talking about the 1990s, the 1980s; right?

15 A. I answered you very well. After 1981, the special units of the

16 Yugoslav Interior Ministry stayed in Germija near Prishtina --

17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Aliu, do not become annoyed. It will not help us.

18 Now, Mr. Milosevic, let's have some relevant questions. Do you

19 want to ask the witness about his statement? In which case, he can have a

20 copy in front of him.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Of course he can have a copy in

22 front of him.

23 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness have a copy of his statement.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All these questions arise from his

25 statement, Mr. May.

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. And furthermore, since you don't know what the government of

3 Yugoslavia considered and you say in your statement, in paragraph 5 --

4 nevertheless, you say the Yugoslav government took these demonstrations to

5 be subversive or something like that, and then you go on to say the

6 Yugoslav police arrived in Kosovo. That is written in line 3 of that same

7 paragraph. "It was at this time that the Yugoslav police came to Kosovo."

8 And then in the next sentence, you say: "After the Serb police

9 entered Kosovo, a lot of Albanian men were imprisoned and the

10 maltreatment, that is mistreatment, of Albanians really became

11 ubiquitous." Tell me, did the Yugoslav police come to Kosovo or was it

12 the Serbian police? In one sentence you say the Yugoslav police came to

13 Kosovo and then, almost in the same breath, you say the Serbian police.

14 Was it the Yugoslav or the Serbian police?

15 A. I don't know who translated it, but it was the police of

16 Yugoslavia, and all the republics and provinces contributed to that police

17 force.

18 Q. All right. That means they came from Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia,

19 Macedonia. Is that what you're saying?

20 A. I gave you my answer, and you should know what the Yugoslav police

21 means.

22 Q. That's precisely why I'm asking.

23 A. And I answered.

24 Q. All right. You say also there were also a lot of murders

25 committed, Albanians -- against Albanian soldiers at the military

1 barracks. What were those murders of Albanian men in military barracks?

2 Please remind me, because although I was in office at the time, I don't

3 remember any murders except for the murder committed by an Albanian man

4 who killed a number of soldiers in military barracks in Paracin. That's

5 the one I remember.

6 A. Let me explain the matter of the murder of Albanian soldiers in

7 barracks of this degenerate Yugoslav army. There were a number of between

8 65 and 70 Albanian soldiers killed in the barracks of the Yugoslav army.

9 The case of Aziz Kelmendi was framed. The murder of Aziz Kelmendi in the

10 barracks at Paracin was a scenario prepared by the Yugoslav army. It is

11 impossible for a soldier like Aziz Kelmendi who was on guard in a corridor

12 to reach the arsenal and to -- which was under the command of various

13 officers. A guard in a corridor never had weapons or munitions. You know

14 this very well. You merely wish to stage various --

15 JUDGE MAY: No. Now, Mr. Aliu, we must keep this evidence within

16 bounds.

17 Mr. Milosevic, we are not concerned with events in the 1980s, as

18 you know quite well. Now, let's move on to a more relevant period.

19 Have we got the statement?

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May --

21 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. I'm going to see if the statements are

22 coming.

23 MR. SAXON: We have copies in English, Your Honour. The statement

24 in B/C/S is on its way as we speak.

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I wouldn't be asking these

2 questions at all if certain statements were not contained in the witness's

3 own witness statement. Since they are untrue --

4 JUDGE MAY: Let me explain something. Let me explain something.

5 The fact that something appears in a statement, unless the statement is

6 exhibited, does not mean that it's evidence in the case. Now, you have

7 the right to cross-examine about the statement, and you can do so, and you

8 can have it exhibited if you want. But it does not seem to me to help us

9 very much to have these events of so long ago gone into in enormous

10 detail. What, if I may say, you should concentrate on is the evidence

11 which the witness actually gave.

12 MR. SAXON: We have the statement now in Albania and in Serbian,

13 Your Honour.

14 JUDGE MAY: Let the Albanian be put before the witness.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Do you have your statement in the Albanian language, Mr. Shukri?

17 MR. SAXON: I apologise. There are two statements, both of them

18 in the Serbian language, but the witness reads Serbian, Your Honour.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. All right. Let's move on.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, a photograph of a

22 soldier killed in 1990, Hajrizi from Kuklibeg. I was present at his

23 funeral. One of the cases which you are denying.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Aliu, have you got the statement? Now, have

25 the statement in front of you.

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1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation].

2 JUDGE MAY: Now, Mr. Milosevic, what do you want to ask?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just asked him what were those

4 murders committed against Albanian men in the army.

5 JUDGE MAY: He has dealt with that, and I've told you to move on.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Fine. Then you go on to say in the bottom paragraph of this page

8 2, which is actually the first page of the statement but it is marked 2,

9 quote: "I found out that Milosevic had formed a committee in Kosovo in

10 the spring of 1998 which was named the combat headquarters or combat staff

11 of Kosovo."

12 And then you explain this. What was it; a committee or combat

13 headquarters or staff? Could you explain this in greater detail?

14 A. I didn't say spring, and I don't know who translated it into

15 Serbian, but I said in the summer of 1998, there was a joint command

16 formed from which the war staff of Kosova stemmed.

17 Q. All right.

18 A. And you formed this personally. And you commanded it and, through

19 it, you received all the information about what was happening in Kosova.

20 You are -- why are you denying it?

21 Q. I am not here to answer your questions, Mr. Shukri. I am asking

22 you.

23 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. On page 3, you enumerate the members of those combat headquarters

3 or the combat staff. As far as I can see, there were 12 of them. First

4 you say politician Milomir Minic, who was the president of the

5 Socio-Political Chamber. Let's not deal with this mistake now although it

6 is a mistake. It was the Chamber of Citizens in the Yugoslav Assembly.

7 Then you mention Nikola Sainovic, Minic's deputy. You say he had been the

8 Prime Minister of Yugoslavia and Serbia. He was actually Deputy Prime

9 Minister of Yugoslavia. Then you name Zoran Andjelkovic was a member of

10 the headquarters and performed the duties of the president of the

11 government of Kosovo. You actually mean the Executive Council, don't you?

12 Veljko Odalovic was also a member of the headquarters and performed the

13 duties of the Chief of Staff of the district staff of Kosovo. Do you know

14 that he was head of the district in the hierarchy of Serbia's

15 administration? Then you say Vojo Zivkovic was a member of the

16 headquarters, and president of Milosevic's party.

17 JUDGE MAY: Are you asking a question about Veljko Odalovic? You

18 seem to be.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am quoting his own statement in

20 order to pave the way for asking him this:

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. We are talking here about a member of the parliament, member of

23 the federal government, president of Kosovo's government, president of

24 Kosovo's Executive Council, head of the district, chairman of the party

25 organisation in Kosovo. Then General Pavkovic, member of the staff and

1 commander of the so-called army corps of all Serb VJ forces.

2 You enumerate, therefore, people who were all in high public

3 places, high-ranking people and prominent public figures. Is that so?

4 A. That's why they were part of the staff, and were members of the

5 military staff commanded by you.

6 Q. All right. I've already heard about this idea. What I'm

7 interested in is the following: How come you are talking about the

8 clandestine activities of public figures such as the president of the

9 federal parliament, vice-president of the government or head of district

10 in Kosovo? Is it their duty to meet from time to time to discuss issues

11 of importance for the society in general, for the citizens, for the

12 economy? Are they occupying such public offices which require them to

13 meet and discuss these things?

14 A. This staff met every Tuesday at 5.00 in the parliament building of

15 Kosova and sometimes in the -- I say this with total responsibility: This

16 staff was appointed by you and was given orders by you for military

17 operations in Kosova, and it used to meet in the army building, and it

18 used to meet in the provincial committee building.

19 Q. All right. Tell me then, Mr. Shukri, what you've just said is

20 also written in your statement at the top of page 3. "The group held

21 regular meetings after it was established, and those meetings were held

22 every Tuesday at 700 hours [as interpreted] on the premises of the

23 Executive Council." That's what you say.

24 Tell me, please, what kind of military or war headquarters is it

25 which meets once a week on Tuesday afternoon at tea time? What kind of

1 war staff is that?

2 JUDGE MAY: That is what -- it's not for him to comment. That is

3 his evidence. That is when they met. Now, whether you say it isn't much

4 of a war staff is a matter for you, but he can't improve on that.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Fine.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. But is it logical for politicians, high representatives, or should

8 I say the highest representatives, because we're talking about the speaker

9 of the parliament, president of the Executive Council, Prime Ministers, is

10 it logical for them to meet regularly and discuss current issues? Are

11 they forbidden from doing that in the course of performing their public

12 duties?

13 JUDGE MAY: I don't know if you can comment on that. Of course

14 they're not forbidden. I suppose the question can be put in this way:

15 What was there that was unusual, Mr. Aliu, about this particular group

16 meeting? Was it just a normal meeting between politicians and generals or

17 was there something else to it?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not here a simple question.

19 It's a matter of questions about the military situation in Kosova, and the

20 accused knows this very well. And this staff dealt solely with militaries

21 using Kosova, and in 1998 onwards, this is what they discussed. They

22 weren't there to drink tea in the afternoon, they were here to discuss

23 military issues solely.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Every Tuesday at 5.00 p.m.; right?

1 A. Every Tuesday at 5.00 in the afternoon. That was when they met.

2 And if necessary, they also came to the command of the army corps in

3 Prishtina, and were able to sleep in the hotel belonging to the army

4 command.

5 Q. All right. Many times in your statement, you accuse Milomir

6 Minic, who was the speaker of the federal parliament, who were allegedly

7 issuing some kind of orders. Do you know that he wasn't even speaker of

8 the parliament as a matter of occupation? It wasn't his profession. He

9 was director, manager of the railways, and he was chairman of the Chamber

10 of Citizens in the parliament. Do you know that that was his real

11 position?

12 A. What kind of post you gave him is your problem, but he was member

13 and president of the war staff of Kosova.

14 Q. That is precisely my point. How can such a number of civilians

15 form a war staff? Even if they were coordinating some activities, how can

16 they possibly make up a war staff? As a military officer with a military

17 education, how can you put so many civilians on a war staff? Is this true

18 or not?

19 A. The Civil Defence in Yugoslavia had a lot of civilians in it, not

20 just military people per se.

21 Q. All right. Do you think that soldiers belong in a Civilian

22 Protection Unit?

23 A. Soldiers don't normally belong in such a unit, but they are

24 commanded, and they're commanded by you who were head of -- who was head

25 of the Territorial Defence.

1 Q. I am not quite getting your drift now. I was head of the overall

2 defence and Supreme Commander of the army as President of the Republic.

3 Everybody in Yugoslavia knows that. So I don't really understand what

4 you're saying. Would you please care to explain?

5 A. Your Honours, can I use an example?

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could we put that on the projector?

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Do you have this on your monitor or

9 not?

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. What is it, Mr. Aliu, you want to explain?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This the accused can see for

12 himself, the command structure and who was commanding in Kosova.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please be so kind as to give me that

15 paper. I can't see it on the monitor. I don't see very well. I'll put

16 it back on the projector when I'm done.

17 JUDGE MAY: Let the accused have it.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. All right. What we see here is this: Right there on the top is

20 the Presidency of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, FRY, Supreme

21 Commander of the armed forces. Below that, we see the Ministry of

22 Defence, Federal Secretariat for National Defence, in war called Supreme

23 Command. And then it is divided into the war staff and PVO and command of

24 the army district and the army and naval district.

25 So first we have the Supreme Command, the Ministry of Defence,

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1 then army, navy, and land forces; then land forces is further divided into

2 divisions, corps, and so on and so forth.

3 What are you trying to prove with this? You are saying that there

4 is a Supreme Command, that there are armies, navy, air force, brigades.

5 Will you please translate this and look at it yourself to be able to

6 explain what you are trying to say. You are saying the same thing that is

7 written all over the newspapers, and you are trying to present it to us as

8 something new and spectacular.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Your Honour. This

10 document which is my example and which the accused is saying is from a

11 newspaper is from the defence college in Belgrade, and this shows the army

12 military structure in Kosova. This is the main example in which the

13 accused himself can find which unit was under which command.

14 JUDGE MAY: Where did you get the document from, Mr. Aliu?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is from the faculty, and this

16 is a very important -- this is a very adequate kind of document from the

17 faculty.

18 JUDGE MAY: And was it given to you?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. It's my document.

20 JUDGE MAY: You say it comes from the faculty. How did it come to

21 you?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I studied there. I studied at

23 the faculty. This is from the subject about the command and structure of

24 the Yugoslav army.

25 JUDGE MAY: And you got the document when you were studying at the

1 faculty; is that right?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, when I was studying at the

3 faculty.

4 JUDGE MAY: When was that, could you tell us.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1977 to 1981. And this document is,

6 even today, down in the rule book of the Yugoslav armed forces.

7 JUDGE MAY: If the -- just a moment. If the Prosecution apply to

8 exhibit it, we will have that document exhibited.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No problem.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, please do exhibit it.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. What's the big deal in saying that the army has its own structure,

14 armed forces, that there is a Supreme Command, that there exists the navy,

15 air force, and land forces, and that the land forces further subdivide by

16 army districts, divisions, brigades? What is so important in that so that

17 you should put it to us here? Who has ever denied the existence of air

18 force, navy, land forces, brigades, corps, and who is disputing that?

19 JUDGE MAY: This is all a comment. He's produced it now, and he

20 says that sets out what he was given in the faculty.

21 Now, you can comment on it if you want, but not now. Let's move

22 on.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Let's take one of those documents that you gave us yesterday. For

1 instance, a letter --

2 JUDGE MAY: Let's have that document and it can be exhibited. If

3 the usher would collect it. We will also have an exhibit number, while

4 we're at it.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It was exhibited yesterday.

6 JUDGE MAY: No, just a moment. We will deal with these two

7 documents now before we go on to other ones. Give that a Defence number,

8 and the other one. It doesn't matter which it is. Whichever is

9 convenient.

10 THE REGISTRAR: The letter regarding Mr. Aliu will be Defence

11 Exhibit 22, and the chart will be Defence Exhibit 23.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. I'd like to ask you regarding this letter. It's a letter which

15 the head of administration for defence, Petar Ilic - you showed us this

16 yesterday - sent to the Federal Secretariat for National Defence, sector

17 for civilian protection.

18 So in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, in its government, there

19 is the Federal Ministry of Defence, and then the area organ in the

20 Republic of Serbia belonging to the defence administration with its

21 Pristina office. That's what's written in the heading. And then the head

22 of defence administration writes to the -- to his superior in the

23 ministry. So he communicates along those vertical lines that you describe

24 and -- is this letter written by him and addressed to the sector in the

25 ministry for civilian protection?

1 A. Just read who was it sent to.

2 Q. It says Federal Ministry of Defence, area organ for civilian

3 defence.

4 A. Personally, who was it written to?

5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, which document are you referring to?

6 We've got two. One is numbered 245, the other is 246. They are both

7 dated 28th of July. We could perhaps -- we could perhaps distinguish them

8 by one being longer than the other.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please. This is a one-page

10 document, and I'm talking here about the following, that is to say, I want

11 the witness to explain to me whether they are communicating here, that is

12 to say from the head of department to --

13 JUDGE MAY: No. I'm not going to go on until I understand which

14 document you're talking about. Now, three documents were put in. Perhaps

15 we can identify them in this way since you're not following the numbers --

16 no, don't interrupt -- you're not following the numbers. One is described

17 as "Subject: Instructions for the Defence of Inhabited Areas." The

18 next one -- and it's to the defence departments and sections. The next

19 one is to the chiefs of defence departments and head of defence sections.

20 And the third one is described as "Guidelines for the Defence of Inhabited

21 Areas." Now, which of those three is it that you're putting to the

22 witness?

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is what I have in my hands, a

24 paper that is K0004689. That is the number of the document.

25 JUDGE MAY: Would you hand it in and we'll get it compared with

1 the Registry, and we'll see which document it is. We should, in any

2 event, have a record on the transcript of which exhibit you're talking

3 about.

4 Perhaps the registrar could compare the two and say what the

5 number is, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the accused is referring to Exhibit

7 number 248, and it's the last page.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Put that on the ELMO so that the witness can

9 have it too. He can have the original. The accused should have his copy.

10 Yes. Now, what is the question, Mr. Milosevic?

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. As Mr. Shukri is explaining the organisation, we can see here that

13 the head of the administration, which is an organisational part of the

14 Federal Defence Ministry, is writing to the minister or, rather, to the

15 Ministry of Defence, the sector for civilian defence.

16 Now, I wish to ask you the following: This is the vertical chain

17 of the Federal Defence Ministry; right? Because it goes from the top

18 downwards, from the federal level right down to the local level; right?

19 And we can see here that from the local level --

20 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness answer. Now, can you deal with that?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The example that we had

22 slightly earlier here but doesn't say who -- that Petar Ilic is addressing

23 personally, Geza Farkas, and he is asking for the arming of the Civil

24 Defence Units.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. First of all, I wish to clarify one point, and that is the

2 functioning of that organisation that you have been talking about. You

3 showed us a schematic of the army a moment ago. Isn't that right, Mr.

4 Shukri? You showed us that diagram; right?

5 A. You saw very well. Just read carefully who it's addressed to,

6 because you can see the name of that general. Why are you denying it?

7 Q. I'm not denying it, Mr. Shukri. I'm not denying that Geza Farkas

8 at that point in time was the deputy or --

9 JUDGE MAY: This is not to turn into an argument. Now, ask the

10 question again and let the witness answer it. Just answer the question.

11 Don't get into an argument, Mr. Shukri.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Please. It is immaterial whether the assistant or Deputy Defence

14 Minister for civilian defence is called in one way or another. The

15 important point and what I wish to establish is that the district organ

16 from Pristina communicates with the assistant Minister of Defence in

17 charge of civilian defence. Is that a fact?

18 JUDGE MAY: Well, we can see who it's written to. Now, what is

19 the point, Mr. Milosevic, of the question?

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Well, the question is the following: I wish to establish whether

22 this is the vertical chain, the line and chain of the Defence Ministry,

23 from top to bottom, that you are talking about. Is it?

24 A. I said before that these are the -- this is the vertical chain of

25 command. And you can't deny this. This is merely --

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1 JUDGE MAY: No. Don't argue with the accused, please. Just

2 answer the questions and we'll get on more quickly.

3 Mr. Milosevic, you've got another ten minutes with this witness.

4 Now, we can see these documents, and we can see --

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I haven't even started my

6 cross-examination, Mr. May. Can't you see that the witness has not been

7 answering and cannot in fact answer any question in a proper and correct

8 manner? The witness seems to be quite nervous. Perhaps he ought to calm

9 down first and then proceed to the cross-examination.

10 JUDGE MAY: No. Don't you make comments either. You've got

11 another ten minutes.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, don't I even have the same

13 amount of time that the opposite side had?

14 JUDGE MAY: You have now had the hour which they had and a bit

15 longer already. Now, you can have -- you can have another quarter of an

16 hour and that will be to -- give you a third more than the Prosecution

17 have had.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, are you counting the time that

19 they had on Friday before the break?

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes, that's all been counted.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, then, it's very difficult for

22 me now to get through all the questions I wish to get through in the time

23 that I have because he explained -- went into many explanations here, the

24 kind of explanations that you can read in any newspaper.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. But tell me this, Mr. Shukri, explain to me this: If this is the

2 vertical chain which the organ of administration goes and in which you

3 yourself worked, what was the vertical chain, for example, for

4 communication in the army? Does it follow the diagram and schematic you

5 showed us a moment ago or does that chain follow a different pattern?

6 A. The leadership and command is merely a pattern of the kind that I

7 presented before. This is the general scheme.

8 Q. All right. Petar Ilic was the head of the defence administration

9 belonging to the Defence Ministry, under the Defence Ministry. Who was in

10 command of the army in Kosovo? Who was the main person in the army in

11 Kosovo at that time in 1998, during the time period that you're talking

12 about? Petar Ilic communicated with the Ministry of Defence. Who did the

13 commander of the army communicate with, the corps commander, for example?

14 Let's take the corps commander, who did he communicate with? Let's hear

15 this. You're an officer, so tell me, who does the corps commander

16 cooperate with -- communicate with?

17 A. You know the answers to these questions very well. You saw in the

18 plan. The commander of the Prishtina Corps answers to the commander of

19 the Nis army. It's very simple. And you are the -- were the Supreme

20 Commander of the armed forces of Yugoslavia.

21 Q. So he is responsible to the commander of the army; right? Of

22 course. I'm not asking you because I don't know myself. I wish to

23 establish what you are saying.

24 And to whom is the commander of the Nis army district responsible

25 to? The 3rd Army, who is he responsible to?

1 A. He is responsible to the chief of the staff of the Yugoslav army.

2 Q. All right. That means that we have established two chains of

3 command, one via the organs of the Ministry of Defence from bottom to top

4 which we can see from this letter; the second, you have been explaining,

5 goes from the corps command to the army command, the 3rd Army commander,

6 then the General Staff. That's the military chain of command. Now tell

7 me about the police. Who does the chief of police refer back to? For

8 example, the head of the Internal Affairs Secretariat in Pristina.

9 A. About the police matters, you must ask the police. I didn't show

10 you the scheme for the police. I --

11 JUDGE MAY: Can you -- it's not the accused that you're answering

12 to, it's the Court. Now, can you help us with the chain of command of the

13 police or not? If you don't know, Mr. Aliu, say so.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't in the police to know this

15 sort of thing.

16 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes. Next question.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. All right. But may we dwell for a moment on these two? That

19 means the following: Is it clear to you, Mr. Shukri, then, that if a part

20 of the organisation of the Ministry of Defence has its vertical line right

21 up to the peaks and if the army goes up to the General Staff - we have

22 established that, right? - how then and on the basis of what grounds can

23 you claim that all these forces are being commanded by some sort of joint

24 command for Kosovo? Or is this a method of work which has to do with

25 civilian defence and mutual information?

1 A. Your Honour, let me answer the accused again. I explained very

2 clearly the matter of the military districts and the command of the army

3 corps and the provincial Defence Secretariat. Each had their own

4 responsibility, as I explained yesterday.

5 You must not manipulate translations into Serbian. You should

6 know very well that in the event of war, the army was commanded by this

7 joint command which you yourself formed.

8 Q. All right. That means what you said a moment ago that the corps

9 commander, for example, of Pristina, the Pristina Corps command, is not

10 responsible to the commander of the army and the General Staff and myself

11 but that he is responsible to Milomir Minic. Is that what you're saying?

12 So he receives orders in Milomir Minic and not from the army commander or

13 from myself but from Milomir Minic in Pristina. Is that what you're

14 claiming? Is that what you're saying?

15 A. Why are you confusing things? You saw very well the plan that I

16 showed you. Do not try to evade your responsibility. You were the

17 Supreme Commander --

18 JUDGE MAY: Now, I'm going to stop this. This witness must answer

19 to the Court and not get into arguments with the accused. Just simply say

20 yes or no. Don't argue with him. Now, I've told you, Mr. Aliu.

21 Yes, Mr. Milosevic, your next question.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He didn't give me an answer to my

23 question.

24 JUDGE MAY: Ask it again shortly.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. The office of command commanding the army, the functions of

3 command, does it go down the chain that you describe from the corps to the

4 army to the Supreme Command and to myself, upwards, or does the command of

5 the army evolve via Milomir Minic? Which is it? Which is what you're

6 claiming here.

7 A. I'm making no claims. I'm merely telling the truth. And I've

8 answered this question three times already.

9 Q. All right. If you say so, then it's -- there's no point in

10 continuing along those lines. But is it clear to you that all these

11 documents, all the documents that you have presented here are generally

12 known facts in each local community?

13 JUDGE MAY: That's a comment. It's not a question. It's not a

14 question.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Now, please. Does it say here in that second document, 4737, on

17 the last page where the tasks of civilian protection, Civil Defence are

18 talked about, units --

19 JUDGE MAY: Exhibit 245. Yes. Go on.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. General purpose CZ units, administer first aid, et cetera. We saw

22 how this functions upwards, then we saw how it functions downwards.

23 Civilian defence. It says: "General purpose units administer first aid,

24 rescue people from destroyed buildings, extinguish initial and minor

25 fires, clean up barricades, organise cleaning and washing of

1 streets," et cetera.

2 Specialised units rescue people in structural

3 collapse emergencies, buildings, roads, et cetera, fire-fighting

4 operations, first aid, destruction of unexploded material, cleaning up the

5 terrain, maintaining law and order, et cetera. They take part in

6 constructing shelters, in ensuring that the population has water supplies,

7 et cetera, et cetera. The monitoring of all terrorist activities.

8 And then mention is made of other operations which the Civilian

9 Protection Unit has with regards to terrorist activities.

10 Now, Mr. Shukri, are you aware, do you know, as you worked in the

11 district organ of the Ministry of Defence in Pristina, how much during

12 that year, and I'm talking about 1998, the year you're testifying about,

13 how many people were killed by the KLA, that is to say Serbs and Albanians

14 and soldiers and policemen, and how many terrorist attacks were launched?

15 How much -- how many settlements had been taken control of, for example,

16 from Orahovac right down the line? Do you know that?

17 JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues]... I'm told that it's

18 in fact 246 we're looking at. At the moment, we're not going to stop to

19 go through that. Whether it's 245 or 246, it matters not.

20 Mr. Aliu, what you're being asked is this: Can you assist the

21 Court by dealing with the number of terrorist attacks, it's said by the

22 KLA, in 1998? If you can help us, say so. If you can't, just say that

23 you can't.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will try to help you. The Court

25 should know.

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1 The KLA did not ever undertake terrorist operations in Kosova. I

2 will only mention one murder: Ilir Durmishi and his friend Tale and Maliq

3 were killed in 1990, and it was never explained who killed them. And the

4 Court knows who was in charge in Prishtina. Can I show --

5 JUDGE MAY: No. We've had much evidence. No, rather than go

6 further.

7 How would you categorise the KLA operations in Kosovo?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The operations of the KLA were a

9 form of defence against the Serbian occupier and barbarian, and a defence

10 of the population.

11 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Next question.

12 You've got another four minutes.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Well, all right. Regardless of how you categorise it - and that

15 was your question, Mr. May - do you know how many people, Serbs and

16 Albanians alike, soldiers, policemen, et cetera, were killed by the KLA in

17 the course of 1998? Do you know at least that many people were killed

18 during that period of time? Do you know that at least?

19 A. Many Albanians were killed by members of the Yugoslav army units,

20 by the police, and by the Serbian special forces units. These were

21 stationed in the -- in the Grand Hotel in Prishtina, the Park Hotel, and

22 the Herzegovina Hotel in Kosovo Polje, and on the main road from Klina to

23 Gjakove --

24 Q. I'm asking you, Mr. Shukri --

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Would you repeat your question, Mr. Milosevic.

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. I'm not asking you that. Do you disclaim that the KLA in 1998

3 killed a large number of citizens, Serbs and Albanians, policemen,

4 soldiers, and others? Do you deny that?

5 A. The KLA did not kill Albanians. On the contrary, it defended

6 Albanians. And the situation in 1998 was a state of war. And you had

7 50.000 soldiers in Kosova, and we had the right to defend ourselves

8 against colonisation and occupation.

9 Your Honour, would you like to look at just an example, just to

10 look at it?

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Put it on the ELMO quickly.

12 Yes, Mr. Aliu, what is it? This is a report, is it?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a statement by the general

14 of the Prishtina army corps who says that there are 150.000 armed men in

15 Kosova, whereas the accused talks of terrorist groups which didn't exist

16 at all, or if they did exist, they were Serbian terrorists. And here we

17 have special units being used.

18 JUDGE MAY: If the Prosecution want to take that further, they

19 can. If you'll give that document back to the witness, please.

20 Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Your last question now.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, give it to the Prosecution.

22 JUDGE MAY: Give that back to the witness. Thank you.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, well, it's pointless to

24 cross-examine this witness who, in his statement here, says where the Park

25 Hotel is located and the Grand Hotel, and who claims that Ojdanic was the

1 chief of the General Staff, that Pavkovic was the commander of the

2 3rd Army, that I was the Supreme Commander, and he could see all that on

3 television and hear it over the radio, read it in the papers, and it's no

4 secret. So how can I examine a witness, especially with the help of the

5 other side there who's sitting there triumphantly, pulling out certain

6 documents --

7 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Very well.

8 Mr. Wladimiroff, have you any questions for this witness?

9 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Questioned by Mr. Wladimiroff:

11 Q. Witness, you studied military sciences at the faculty, the

12 military faculty, didn't you?

13 A. The defence faculty at Belgrade.

14 Q. So I take it that you would know the difference between an

15 official state of war and any armed conflict, would you not?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was there an official state of war in Kosovo before the NATO

18 bombing started?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Was that declared --

21 A. Let me use this opportunity. On the third day of the Rambouillet

22 agreement, there was a general mobilisation of the Yugoslav forces.

23 Q. Does that imply an official state of war?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So am I right in thinking that an official state of war wasn't

1 declared by the Yugoslav authorities?

2 A. Yes, a state of war. But it was secret.

3 Q. What do you mean by a "secret"? Was it not declared in public?

4 A. It was not published publicly.

5 Q. And why do you say a secret? How would you know if it was secret?

6 A. I know because the mobilisation at the Defence Secretariat took

7 place.

8 Q. Was it in that mobilisation disclosed that there was an official

9 state of war?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So we can read it if you would have that order, would we not?

12 A. I don't have an order of this kind because it was a secret order.

13 Q. But how would you know if you don't have that order?

14 A. I was working there.

15 Q. Have you seen that order?

16 A. I saw how the mobilisation summonses were being prepared.

17 Q. And have you seen that order?

18 A. No, not the order.

19 Q. Again, how would you know that in that order there was secretly

20 announced an official state of war?

21 A. Because conscripts were called up and also the conscripts in the

22 police units were also mobilised.

23 Q. Last question: In your testimony, you say that in the event of

24 war, then the army would be commanded by the structure that you gave

25 evidence about. Would you agree that if there was no state of war, that

1 the whole structure would not function and did not function, although it

2 was in place?

3 A. If -- if there were not war, if it were a state of peace, no doubt

4 it would not operate.

5 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Thank you.

6 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ryneveld.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: On reflection, no re-examination. Thank you.

8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Aliu, thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give

9 your evidence. You are free to go.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn now for 20 minutes.

12 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, before we go on, we need to renumber an

16 exhibit, the organigramme schematic, as it was called. It will be

17 renumbered as a Prosecution Exhibit. If the registrar would give us the

18 figure.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, formerly marked Defence Exhibit 23

20 will now be Prosecutor's Exhibit 249.

21 JUDGE MAY: And we will need to deal -- I don't think you're

22 dealing with Colonel Crosland, but we need to deal with that, if you would

23 tell Mr. Ryneveld, before we finish today. Perhaps at the end of today we

24 will deal with that.

25 MR. NICE: I know that the information upon which the application

1 that I imagine you're referring to is mounted won't actually be arriving

2 in written form until after 2.00.

3 JUDGE MAY: No, it's the original application under 92 bis. We

4 need to straighten it out.

5 MR. NICE: Very well.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, let the witness take the declaration.

7 MR. NICE: In light of his protected status, can he take a seat?

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Sit down to take the declaration.

9 WITNESS: WITNESS K25

10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

12 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13 MR. NICE: Your Honour, this witness has been granted various

14 protective measures. In those circumstances, may he please have this

15 piece of paper. Could you show it to the witness, please.

16 Examined by Mr. Nice:

17 Q. Just look at this piece of paper. Don't read out what is on it,

18 but if the details contained on it are accurate, please say, "Yes."

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. NICE: May that piece be paper please be produced and given an

21 exhibit number.

22 Your Honour, the witness will deal with a number of sites of

23 involvement by the unit with which he was engaged, briefly, and to make

24 his evidence more intelligible to not only the Court but also the public,

25 I will identify the areas by reference to the atlas that we have been

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1 using. If a version of that may be available, I will be able to -- I'll

2 point out the pages from time to time. If the usher could help us when

3 I -- it won't be immediately. When I specify a page, if she can simply

4 place it on the overhead projector. He will then be dealing with one area

5 in much greater detail, for which a special map has been prepared.

6 Q. You will be known throughout these proceedings as Witness K25.

7 I'm going to deal with matters of background shortly, and where possible,

8 if you can answer questions simply with a yes or no, it will save time and

9 make the administration of your evidence that much more compact.

10 K25, are you a Serbian police officer, having had compulsory

11 military service with the JNA in the course of which you trained as a

12 short-range anti-tank self-guided rocket operator as part of a JNA

13 infantry battalion?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. After military service, did you complete studies to the university

16 level, becoming a police reservist and later working for the police, after

17 further training becoming a member of a unit known as the PJP or police

18 special unit, continuing with ordinary police work but performing special

19 assignments for the PJP on certain occasions?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did the unit of which you were an occasional member receive

22 instruction from the VJ on specialist weapons?

23 A. Yes, for training purposes.

24 Q. Can you give us an example of the specialist weapons on which you

25 were trained by the VJ?

1 A. During training, we had compulsory training in operating infantry

2 weapons, military equipment, weapons of medium range such, as Zolja and

3 Osa, hand-held rocket launchers, land-mines, basic training in operating

4 special weapons of higher calibre, such as 12.9, et cetera.

5 Q. Were these weapons then available to your unit as and when

6 required?

7 A. Yes, because that fell within the framework of training in

8 handling infantry weapons.

9 Q. I move to paragraph 6. Were you deployed from the place where you

10 were based to Kosovo on several occasions in 1998 and 1999?

11 A. Yes. On six occasions in 1998 and once in 1999.

12 Q. I will deal briefly with the occasions in 1998.

13 MR. NICE: If the usher would be good enough, please, to open the

14 map at map 5, 0-5 on the left-hand corner there, laying that on the

15 overhead projector. Thank you.

16 Q. This shows west-central Kosovo. And was your first deployment in

17 the Kosovska Mitrovica, Srbica, Josanica and Klina area?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In a sentence, please, the nature of the operation of the PJP

20 then.

21 A. The purpose of the operation was to free or liberate roads from

22 Srbica and Klina and Klina to Pec because Albanian terrorists at the time

23 had sealed off roads in this area and carried out constant terrorist

24 operations in those sections of the road and shot at anything that moved.

25 Q. We can't see Klina, but it's a little further south on the map?

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Nice, please.

2 MR. NICE: We can't see Klina but it's a little further south on

3 the map. Thank you very much. We can see that.

4 Q. The date of that deployment, please, Witness K25?

5 A. Sometime around the 1st of March, I believe, or the 21st. I can't

6 remember exactly. In fact, it was -- it was definitely the 1st of March.

7 Q. To your knowledge, had there been any earlier deployments of this

8 kind or was this the first of its kind?

9 A. There had been no previous deployments. Our unit had never gone

10 out into the field to perform such tasks. This was our first

11 anti-terrorist assignment.

12 Q. The second deployment --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Mike, please.

14 MR. NICE: Thank you.

15 Q. The second deployment, same area, was when and to do what, please?

16 A. The second time, we went to the same positions, and our task was

17 to ensure that the road was passable. Our presence had the purpose of

18 securing that road.

19 Q. The date of this second deployment?

20 A. After the completion of the previous task, we had three or four

21 days' leave and then we came back.

22 Q. We now go to map page 4, please, the previous page. And the lower

23 part of it, I think. We will see Pec and Decani.

24 Your third deployment, Witness K25, was when, where, and to do

25 what?

1 A. Our third deployment followed immediately after the second one,

2 after a short break. It was on the road from Pec to Djakovica, where

3 again Albanian terrorists had cut off sections of that road, preventing

4 normal traffic.

5 Q. We can see on the map, if we look south of Pec and north of Decani

6 - I don't know if it's possible to focus in on the bottom right-hand

7 corner - we can see a couple of villages called Donji Streoci and Gornji

8 Streoci, I think. Did they feature in this, your third deployment?

9 A. Yes. That means that if we were not on our regular two days'

10 leave, we were at our positions in Gornji Streoci where we were securing

11 communications, that is, roads.

12 Q. If we move to the fifth -- I beg your pardon, the fourth

13 deployment, where was the fourth deployment?

14 A. On our fourth assignment, we tried to establish control over

15 Jablanica, which was a stronghold of the terrorists where around 3.000

16 well-armed terrorists were based. However, at that time we failed to

17 enter the area of Jablanica.

18 Q. And this is Jablanica in the south of Kosovo, considerable

19 distance away from the previous deployments?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. NICE: Map 15, and the top left-hand corner of it, shows

22 Jablanica, and it is right at the southern end or edge of Kosovo. No.

23 Map 15. I don't think we're looking at the right map there. No. That's

24 not the right map. Page 15. Oh, dear. Top left-hand corner. Let's have

25 a look at it. No. The top left-hand corner. Keep going. The witness

1 will point it out for you. We can see the borders there of Kosovo and we

2 can see Jablanica right at the top left of the screen at the moment.

3 Q. How long did this unsuccessful mission last, please?

4 A. Every field deployment lasted between 25 and 30 days, but this

5 attempt to take Jablanica lasted for about a day or a day and a half.

6 Q. If you could move to the fifth deployment. I think we're going to

7 want to turn to map --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Mike, please.

9 MR. NICE: Thank you, and I apologise.

10 Q. As we turn to the fifth deployment, I think we're going to be

11 turning to map 9, which is on central -- the far west of Kosovo. And was

12 your fifth deployment, and it's the top of the map, just south of Decan?

13 Thank you. Perfect.

14 And did your fifth deployment take you to the area of Prilep and

15 Junik, and in particular, to the village of Baboloc, which we can just see

16 towards the right and towards the lower part of the screen?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What did this deployment involve?

19 A. Just holding the road, securing the road, the communication line.

20 Q. And then finally, the sixth deployment, also on map 9, was, I

21 think, on the road between -- no. It was in the area of Junik, which we

22 can see just almost in the centre of the screen, towards the bottom. And

23 what was that sixth deployment all about?

24 A. We were supposed to take control over that village from which

25 there had been constant terrorist attacks.

1 MR. NICE: If the usher would be good enough now just to take --

2 open the map up and to put the left hand -- the right hand part of one

3 page in the -- that's the stuff. Thank you.

4 Q. In the course of this operation, did you have some assistance from

5 the VJ?

6 A. Yes. On one occasion we received support from Lake Radonjic on

7 the part of the army of Yugoslavia VJ, because the Albanian terrorists in

8 that area had a very strong base, were very strongly fortified.

9 Q. And that lake is shown as the blue part of the right-hand map

10 shown on the overhead projector, I think. Thank you.

11 MR. NICE: Your Honours, we can now move from paragraph 8, for

12 convenience. We'll come back to paragraph 9, but move over to paragraph

13 15 in order that things can be dealt with sequentially.

14 Q. And we come to your operation in 1999, the previous ones, giving

15 the pattern of your unit's involvement, albeit in 1998. Did you, in 1999,

16 find yourself deployed to the Velika Krusa/Mala Krusa area?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 MR. NICE: Your Honour, for this and for the witness's

19 observations in relation to this deployment, we have a special map that's

20 been produced in two different sizes, one for placing on the overhead

21 projector and the slightly larger size version for Your Honours, the

22 accused and the amici. May that now be produced and distributed, please.

23 And, Your Honours, if you want, of course, to find these areas on

24 the atlas or to make a cross reference, then Velika Krusa is on map 10,

25 it's map reference K23, but I think having identified it in that way, we

1 can rely on this more detailed map for the balance of the evidence on this

2 topic.

3 Can the usher put the small version on the overhead projector, and

4 I think the -- if we get it so that it's central to the projector. Thank

5 you very much. Then I think the experts in the booth will be able to

6 focus on what we require.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the pseudonym name sheet will be

8 Prosecutor's Exhibit 250, and this map will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 251.

9 MR. NICE: Thank you.

10 Q. Witness K25, the markings on this map, which we will interpret in

11 due course, were they put on at, as it were, your direction, reflecting

12 the things that you were observing and able to tell us about?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When was this deployment? When did it start?

15 A. On the 25th of March, in the early morning hours.

16 MR. NICE: The booth may wish to move to the junction or towards

17 the junction of the two green lines. Thank you very much. That's enough.

18 And at the left hand join of those two green lines, we see the village or

19 town of Zrze.

20 Q. Was your PJP unit deployed to the area of Zrze on the

21 Djakovica-Prizren road?

22 A. Yes, that's correct. We arrived there on that day from Baboloc

23 village.

24 MR. NICE: Your Honours, I'm going to deal with the identification

25 of units, with the Chamber's leave, at the end of the session in a short

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1 private session, and I'll remain anonymous as to units for the time being.

2 Q. When you arrived there with your unit, what level of equipment did

3 you have, please?

4 A. We arrived with three 110 trucks, one Pinzgauer, three jeeps, one

5 armoured jeep, three civilian trucks, and our own usual weaponry that is

6 normally in our possession.

7 Q. Did you have contact or did your unit have contact with a VJ

8 officer? If so, at what time, on what date, and tell us a little about

9 what that encounter led to.

10 A. Yes. This gentleman from the army of Yugoslavia met us, and

11 instead of directing us to Zrze, he deployed us along the road. And

12 together with our company commander, he established a link along this line

13 of blockade, that is, deployed us there.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask for this microphone to be

16 turned on for us, too, not only for the interpreters, because I almost

17 can't hear the witness. I can't hear what he's saying. I have the

18 impression that this microphone is turned on only for the interpreters'

19 booths. I can hardly hear the witness.

20 JUDGE KWON: Or if you use this headphone, you can easily -- you

21 can hear them quite loud and clear.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Serbian is not interpreted

23 into Serbian, Mr. Kwon. This witness is not being interpreted into

24 Serbian.

25 JUDGE MAY: You can hear the Serbian channel. And apparently

1 there's no other way of improving it.

2 Yes.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can hear the Serbian channel very

4 well when you are speaking but not when the witness is speaking. I can

5 hear him from the headphones, Mr. Kwon.

6 JUDGE KWON: Why don't you try once? You can try once.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm telling you that I can hear it

8 from the headphones.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that those microphones

11 should be turned towards the witness, those microphones which are now

12 facing you, not the witness. Then I will be able to hear him.

13 JUDGE MAY: Those in charge of this will organise it as best they

14 can. There's nothing more that we can do about it. The Registry have

15 heard what you've said, and if there is any improvement that can be made,

16 it will be made. Yes.

17 MR. NICE: Thank you, Your Honour. The particular nature of the

18 distortion - pity the accused hasn't followed this - means that different

19 microphones have to be used and that's why he can only get it through the

20 headphones, which he declines to use.

21 Q. Witness K25, would you be good enough, please, to reflect what

22 you've described about --

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Go on.

24 MR. NICE:

25 Q. Reflect what you've described about your deployment with reference

1 to the map and to the coloured lines. Use the pointer and just show where

2 you were deployed, please.

3 A. From the point where the junction is between the railroad and the

4 road, along the main road from Djakovica to Prizren, in Mala Krusa and in

5 this general area.

6 Q. The VJ -- the VJ officer to whom you've referred, what was your

7 understanding as to his -- the breadth of his authority over the equipment

8 of the various units or the units that were deployed in your area?

9 A. He was in command only of the armed vehicles that were together

10 alongside us.

11 Q. What level of communication was there between the units - and you

12 might be able to give us an account of the number of units - the units

13 deployed there, and what level of communication between your unit and the

14 VJ units?

15 A. Communication between the police forces was conducted through

16 radio communication on the same channel, and with the VJ, we had oral

17 control because they didn't have radio communication stations with the

18 same channels as us. Should the need arise, we would be able to contact

19 the staff, our headquarters, who did have a radio communication with the

20 army if we needed to contact the VJ.

21 Q. The operation on which you were engaged, again looking at the map,

22 using the pointer, and expressing it in straightforward terms, was to

23 achieve what?

24 A. The object of the operation or, rather, the operation itself took

25 place in various stages. This was the first preparatory stage where the

1 basic goal was from the Bela Crkva access, repel the terrorists towards

2 Malisevo and Milanovici and to pull out the civilian population from the

3 line of fire. Everything was done with a greater goal in mind, and that

4 was that the terrorists had large control over the territory which was

5 very inaccessible. And we feared a NATO descent. And so in order to

6 reduce this and to ensure that we had control over the area, this is the

7 kind of operation we engaged in.

8 Q. Malisevo is not actually shown on this map. It can be found on

9 map 10, although don't turn to it, and it is simply to the north and east

10 slightly of the area shown on this map. Would that be correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In general, and later we'll come to particulars, but in general,

13 what happened to civilians within this area of operation?

14 A. I'm not getting the interpretation.

15 Q. I'll try again. In general, what happened to the civilians in

16 this area of operation?

17 A. With the start of the operation, the civilians were in the area,

18 and as there was action between us and the KLA, the civilians would --

19 pulled out of the area of operations towards the communication line and

20 road between Djakovica and Pec. So they were displaced from Mala Krusa,

21 the ultimate point of the operation, for their own safety and security.

22 Q. And in what direction were they sent?

23 A. In the direction of Prizren.

24 Q. And did you --

25 A. But outside Mala Krusa.

1 Q. And did you ever discover what happened to them after that or was

2 that for others to speak of?

3 A. I don't know what happened after that.

4 Q. Now can we deal with the movement of civilians in a little more

5 detail? To whom -- I beg your pardon. Did you involve yourself directly

6 in identifying and moving civilians, and if so, to whom or to what unit

7 did you hand civilians over?

8 A. As we held the line and the blockades, all the civilian population

9 left from the in-depth positions from the Celine village, where they were

10 directed by our own forces outside the zone of operations towards Mala

11 Krusa and the railway station, and all the civilians were handed over to

12 the local policemen, the local police force, who due to their previous

13 experience in which the KLA would dress in civilian clothing, disguising

14 themselves and hide with the civilian population, we would hand them over

15 to the local MUP, and they would know who the members of the KLA amongst

16 them were.

17 Q. Roughly how many civilians did you hand over to the local MUP?

18 A. I can't say exactly. I can't give you an exact figure.

19 Q. Can you give us an estimate? You have done in the statement, but

20 can you give us an estimate now that you're here in court?

21 A. About 5.000.

22 Q. When handed over, were women and children treated in any way

23 differently from the way in which the men were treated?

24 A. Although it was a very hot day, the women and children were put up

25 in the -- at the railway station in Mala Krusa, and then the Prizren SUP

1 organised transport for them.

2 Q. As to the men, was transport organised for them or not?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Is it right that you and some of your colleagues made provision

5 for some of those people to have water, where otherwise they would not

6 have had water?

7 A. I don't understand why they wouldn't have had water otherwise. We

8 policemen were there. They were our citizens, and they got water. And we

9 organised ourselves in such a way as to place a policeman up on the road,

10 by the road, and as the military forces crossed this road very quickly

11 because of the operations going on, we positioned a policeman to look

12 after the children while they were running across the road to a building

13 where there was drinking water to be had. And we gave them about 5.000

14 litres of water, to all of them. We distributed this water amongst them

15 all.

16 Q. The local MUP, were they deployed in one particular place or were

17 they interspersed along the road?

18 A. They had their own point up at the junction in Mala Krusa, towards

19 Beli Drim and along the elevation to the right of us.

20 Q. Was that their only place of deployment, on that road?

21 A. Well, they also had their positions in the village of Zrze and in

22 the village by the bridge. Its name is -- let me just think. Rogovo.

23 Q. Did they have checkpoints at these places?

24 A. Yes. I forgot to say that they had their checkpoint also in

25 Velika and Mala Krusa.

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1 Q. Paragraph 19. What was the role, if any, of local Serb reservists

2 in particular villages in this area?

3 A. They protected themselves, defended themselves, because there

4 weren't enough police to go around to protect each and every Serb village

5 or, rather, all Serbs in Albanian villages.

6 Q. Were they armed, and did they have uniforms to reflect their

7 reserve police status?

8 A. Yes, they did. They were all in the reserve police force. They

9 were all reserve policemen, and they all had both uniforms and weapons.

10 Q. I turn to cooperation at this exercise or operation between VJ and

11 the MUP. The VJ officer whom you've already spoken of, of what was he in

12 charge, as it appeared to you?

13 A. For his combat vehicles only.

14 Q. Was there an involvement by members of your PJP group with his

15 units on a so-many-people-per-armoured-vehicle basis?

16 A. Yes. We would supply the physical protection of those armoured

17 vehicles.

18 Q. Did the protection being provided appear to be part of a

19 pre-existing arrangement or plan?

20 A. No. It was part of an agreement in the field.

21 Q. Paragraph 21. At what time did the operation begin and on what

22 date?

23 A. The 25th of March, between 5.00 and 5.30 a.m.

24 Q. And the deployment was along the road you've spoken of. Was it

25 also along the road from Zrze to Bela Crkva and the wine factory near

1 Orahovac which we can see as the top of the two green lines?

2 A. Well, that should be it, but I wasn't there so I didn't see it,

3 but our people were supposed to have been there?

4 MR. NICE: Perhaps now is the time to look at the key on the map,

5 which is at the bottom part of the map, if the usher would be good enough

6 so that we could see what's what.

7 First let's look at the key, if you can focus on that. A little

8 bit further. A teeny bit further. You can always fold the map in half if

9 it's going to obstruct the lens. If we can just look at the key, please.

10 The green -- the continuous green line is said, on this map which

11 you have -- in the annotation of which you have participated, is said to

12 be the 23 Vojvodina PJP Detachment. The continuous dark blue line is the

13 Prizren MUP. The dotted blue line is the Nis PJP Detachment. The double

14 blue line, now off the map, but don't worry, we'll come to it later, is

15 said to be Frenki's JSO. And then there's another mark simply saying

16 "VJ," and then there's an arrow giving the deportation route, which we can

17 see.

18 Q. As to the deployment of -- no, I'll ask the question the other way

19 round.

20 Which of these units did you see yourself --

21 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps you could start with which unit was his.

22 MR. NICE: Yes. Very well.

23 Q. Which unit was yours?

24 A. My unit, that is to say, we were within the frameworks of the 23rd

25 Detachment, it was the 7th Company, along the communication from Zrze to

1 Mala Krusa, on the Djakovica to Prizren road.

2 Q. And so that deployment was something you knew of personally

3 yourself. Did any of these other deployments that you --

4 A. I have one correction to make, if I may. The special units or

5 JSO, units for special operations, I did not include in the sense of them

6 taking part in the operations but merely that I saw them during the

7 following operations. And the route taken by the refugees was not one

8 that I drew in, but that was the general direction that they moved in.

9 Q. Thank you. I'll come to the JSO in a couple of minutes.

10 Going back to where we were on the south part of the markings of

11 the map, the green line, then, running along the road is your own unit.

12 As to the Prizren MUP, to the left or the north-west of that, is

13 that something you saw yourself or simply learnt of?

14 A. Yes, I saw it.

15 Q. Then further north of that, the deployment reflected by the next

16 green line marked as the 23rd Vojvodina PJP Detachment and running up to

17 Orahovac, did you see that yourself or simply learn of it?

18 A. I know they were there. It was a component part of the

19 cooperation.

20 Q. Thank you. The Nis Detachment, shown by the blue broken line, was

21 that something you saw yourself or something that you learnt of?

22 A. Once again, part of the cooperation. I knew they were there, but

23 I didn't actually see them.

24 Q. And then finally, as you've already told us, further north on the

25 map - if the usher would be so good - the double blue line respecting --

1 reflecting Frenki's JSO, a unit you saw, but later, I think you've told

2 us.

3 A. Yes, that's right. I just met them.

4 Q. Now, that's the deployment --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Nice.

6 MR. NICE: Sorry.

7 Q. That's the deployment of the various units. Your instruction came

8 from whom and at what level as to what you were to do? Don't specify the

9 person, but give us the rank of the person from whom your instructions

10 came.

11 A. At the level of the company, instructions were received from the

12 main officer in command, and the information was sent down to the

13 commanders of the companies and the companies would relay them to us.

14 Q. First sentence of paragraph 25, for the Court.

15 The objective of the operation was to do what to the terrorists,

16 the underlying purpose, as explained to you, being what?

17 A. To free the communication between Djakovica and Prizren, which is

18 where there were constant attacks by the KLA, and to push back the members

19 of the KLA towards Malisevo, to pull out the civilian population from the

20 zone of operations, which is something that was done in each and every

21 operation. The civilian population would be pulled out from the combat

22 zone. Two groups would see to this. That is to say, the operations were

23 between us and the KLA. And the larger plan was to diminish the territory

24 under KLA control because of the possibility of NATO troop landings.

25 Q. According to instructions given, what was the estimate of the

1 number of KLA in the area? What did you think of the number given? Did

2 you have your own estimate, however rough, of how many there may have been

3 there?

4 A. Well, a basic assessment was 10.000 terrorists. And we considered

5 amongst ourselves that there were far less, perhaps five.

6 Q. You've dealt with the deployment in general terms. Can you just

7 help us in detail with the deployment of tanks in the area and also the

8 vehicles called BOVs, BOVs.

9 First of all, tanks. Where were there tanks in this area?

10 A. One tank was up at the bridge. Another tank was here in this

11 settlement, Velika Krusa, and three tanks were to our right at our

12 ultimate positions in Mala Krusa. And four BOV armoured vehicles were

13 deployed between Mala and Velika Krusa along the road, running between the

14 two.

15 Q. And it may be obvious, but to which units did tanks and BOVs

16 belong?

17 A. They belonged to the army of Yugoslavia. The police did not have

18 this kind of equipment.

19 Q. Paragraph 26. Did you personally see anything of the way in which

20 villagers were moved from their villages or not?

21 A. As to the movement of villagers or their removal, I didn't see

22 that, and I didn't hear that they went out, that they left Velika and Mala

23 Krusa at all.

24 Q. Paragraph 28. You've told us already about the system in general

25 for movement of men, women, and children, and the movement via Mala Krusa

1 railway station, I think, but help us with this: Between the 24th and

2 27th of March, what sort of numbers of people did you see passing through

3 Mala Krusa railway station, and were they just from Mala Krusa or did they

4 come from elsewhere?

5 A. On the 24th of March, I was not there, so I don't know about that

6 particular date, but when I was there, which is from the 25th onwards,

7 about 5.000 refugees went by, not more, and that's it.

8 Q. The second part of my question was were they all from Mala Krusa

9 or did they come from other places? And if so, by what routing had they

10 reached this particular railway station?

11 A. I didn't talk to them as to where they were coming from, but

12 nobody came from Velika or Mala Krusa, they came from the village road

13 from the direction of the village of Celine.

14 Q. Paragraph 29. Again, you've told us in general terms of how

15 people moved, vehicles for the women and children or on foot for the men,

16 but were there any examples of the men being moved in trucks from the

17 railway station?

18 A. Yes, there were cases like that. But these were cases when

19 several vehicles were sent on or the vehicles were free, and people were

20 taken that way.

21 Q. Which body was responsible, as you could judge it, for the

22 transportation, please?

23 A. The SUP, Prizren.

24 Q. How did you learn or understand that it was the SUP, the

25 Secretariat for Internal Affairs, that was responsible for this

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1 transportation?

2 A. Nobody expected such large numbers of refugees at that point in

3 time, so we informed the SUP of Prizren of what we were facing, and

4 through radio communication they told us to put them up at the railway

5 station from whence transportation would be organised for them outside the

6 combat zone.

7 Q. The transports that were provided, were they driven by uniformed

8 or un-uniformed men or women?

9 A. Mostly uniformed persons, whereas others wore just parts of

10 uniforms.

11 Q. As to the KLA who were being driven out, was there a route

12 available for them to move along? Was it usual or unusual for such a

13 route to be available for the KLA dealt with in operations of this sort?

14 A. Yes. Every time there were alternative directions, because

15 usually there were small-scale operations under way within the frameworks

16 of a larger operation, and they were all pushed back to a given territory.

17 And that is why alternative directions were left open and these people

18 were steered towards a desired position.

19 Q. The PJP company headquarters in the village of Mala Krusa, give us

20 an example, please, of the degree of -- degree to which that headquarters

21 was armed. What equipment did it have?

22 A. They had small arms, their own personal weapons, plus an armoured

23 vehicle with an M-84 machine-gun, 12.7 millimetres -- 7.9 millimetres.

24 Q. Did they have any armoured vehicles available to them?

25 A. No.

1 Q. Please now deal with a couple of particular incidents. On the

2 morning of the 25th, at about 8.00 or 9.00 in the morning, did you witness

3 the capture of some Albanian men in the area of the -- on the

4 Djakovica-Prizren road or in that area?

5 A. Yes, I did. Members of the KLA.

6 Q. By whom were they captured? What happened to them initially?

7 A. They were captured by our company along that road. I don't know

8 exactly how because I didn't see it myself. I don't know where exactly

9 they were caught but they were brought into us. They had visible KLA

10 insignia, and between them they had one rifle made in China. And I handed

11 them over to the local police, which was based 30 metres away from us,

12 because those were the orders we had. So they never entered our

13 headquarters.

14 Q. Did you see what happened to them after they'd been handed over by

15 you to the local MUP?

16 A. Yes. Three local policemen took them along the road towards Beli

17 Drim, into some houses.

18 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I think - and the witness will confirm

19 this if I'm correct - Beli Drim may not be indexed in your atlases, but it

20 is in fact the blue river, I think, that runs just to the south and west

21 of the green markings on the map.

22 Q. Would that be correct, Witness K25?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So taken towards that river, what happened next?

25 A. No, not towards the river. In the direction of the river. From

1 the road, along the road towards the river, and then they took a left turn

2 about 30 metres away towards -- to a field of some sort.

3 Q. What happened after that to the men?

4 A. After that, we heard rifle fire, and we all thought, at the same

5 time, that one of them had tried to escape. But we didn't pay attention

6 that much. Two local policemen returned to the road, and one of them was

7 still gone.

8 At the same moment, our colleagues brought another three members.

9 I don't know -- I'm not sure about two of them, but one of them I know had

10 KLA insignia. And they handed them over to those two local MUP members.

11 Just then, the third local policeman turned up, and together they

12 took them away to a house which was about six metres away from that

13 checkpoint, and when these policemen again returned several minutes later,

14 we realised that nobody was guarding the captives.

15 Q. Did you see the captives, either the six or the three, ever again

16 alive?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you see any of them dead?

19 A. I can't say precisely whether it was them, but I went to that

20 house where they had been taken, and I saw bodies of men. I didn't count

21 them, and I cannot positively identify them, I can only assume.

22 Q. Was that to the house where the three had been taken or are you

23 referring to the place where the six had been taken? And how long after

24 the events you've recently described was it that you went and saw the dead

25 bodies?

1 A. I cannot say precisely whether it was on the same day or the

2 following day. I don't know. But it was the place where the six had been

3 taken. I never entered the place where the three had been taken.

4 Q. Were the bodies distributed in an orderly way on the floor or were

5 they piled up or what?

6 A. Some were piled one on top of another. One was laying away from

7 the others.

8 Q. Following your observations of the six men and the three but

9 before you went to the place where the six men had been taken, did you

10 have some concerns for a local family of Kosovo Albanian villagers in Mala

11 Krusa?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Explain why you became concerned and what you did.

14 A. Well, after this incident, a doubt arose in my mind that those

15 people might have been killed.

16 Q. And as to the particular local villagers, tell us about where they

17 were and why you had concerns for them or what you were troubled might

18 happen to them.

19 A. They were about five metres away from our headquarters. And when

20 we were shielding our vehicles under their awning, they helped us. And we

21 were shielding our vehicles because NATO was targeting military vehicles

22 and other targets.

23 What else do you want to know?

24 Q. What did you do so far as this family was concerned, or extended

25 family? I think it was a place in -- it was a compound, wasn't it?

1 A. Yes. They lived in a compound behind us. And on one occasion one

2 of the three local policemen I had mentioned before asked us to go inside.

3 In fact, he asked, first of all, whether there was anyone inside. We said

4 no, but he didn't believe us and tried to enter himself. So I went inside

5 with him. He saw all the six houses, and he even talked to some of the

6 male inhabitants in the Albanian language, but from their conversation, I

7 noticed that some threat must have been issued because I saw fear in their

8 eyes and in their overall demeanour.

9 He asked us to hand over all the men to them, and I refused.

10 There ensued a quarrel between the two of us, whereupon he left.

11 Q. Perhaps you can give us an idea of the comparative strength of

12 forces. There were three MUP officers but how many men were there

13 deployed together with you at this particular location?

14 A. According to our positions, there was supposed to be only the

15 headquarters. However, there was this armoured vehicle which had been

16 attached to us. So we were 11 in total. Everybody had their own specific

17 assignment. So at any given moment, we were six or seven on the location.

18 Q. You told us that anxiety appeared on the face of the residents

19 within that compound following conversation in the Albanian language. Did

20 you speak any Albanian at that time?

21 A. No, I didn't.

22 Q. Later that evening and as night fell, what arrangements did you

23 make with your local commander so far as those local residents, and it may

24 be other local residents, were concerned?

25 A. Since we were concerned for their safety, we suggested -- or,

1 rather, we agreed that this entire family who lived within this compound

2 including six houses, move to a house close to us so that we could protect

3 them more easily. We were not able to control the entire compound, and it

4 was quite possible for the local policemen to come and enter the compound

5 from a different direction without us seeing them.

6 They accepted this suggestion and moved into the first house

7 closest to us, and we asked them for women and children to move into one

8 room and the men to occupy another room because we couldn't have complete

9 confidence in them after all. And the men were asked, before going to the

10 bathroom, to report to the guard to say that they were going to use the

11 toilet. And that's the way it worked. There were no problems.

12 Q. Until the following morning when what happened? Deal with it

13 quite briefly, please. Paragraphs 40 and 41.

14 A. I don't quite understand your question.

15 Q. The following morning, what happened to the people in this house?

16 What suggestions did you make? What, actually, did they do?

17 A. They didn't do anything. I don't quite understand what you're

18 referring to.

19 Q. In the morning, did you speak to the family leaders of the group

20 you've just told us about?

21 A. Yes, I did. I told them that the situation is what it is and that

22 when we leave, nobody will be left to guarantee their safety. And we had

23 already had a word about the possibility of being transferred away from

24 there, so we suggested that they go to a Catholic village across the Beli

25 Drim river because nobody ever shot from a Catholic village at the police,

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1 and consequently, the police never entered a Catholic village.

2 They accepted this, and they asked if they were allowed to take

3 their belongings with them. Of course we told them they could take

4 whatever they liked. And we just warned them that Beli Drim --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, it's not a river.

6 A. -- is very high, so they should go by tractor.

7 One of them asked if he could take his excavator, and we advised

8 him not to because somebody might think he would be using it to dig a

9 bunker or something of that kind. He accepted this advice and did not

10 drive an excavator.

11 MR. NICE:

12 Q. How, in the event, did they leave their compound?

13 A. At the moment when they were ready to go and we were packing too,

14 local policemen started towards Beli Drim too. And we told them they

15 should better wait until the policemen come back, because we cannot

16 guarantee the safety.

17 When the local policemen returned, they demolished the back wall

18 of the compound and went out into the junction so as not to be seen, and

19 left. And 15 minutes later, we left that place too.

20 Q. There may be some ambiguity in the form of your answer as

21 interpreted. When you say "they demolished the back wall," are you

22 referring to the local policemen or to the local inhabitants who were

23 leaving the compound?

24 A. The inhabitants who were leaving their compound, because the

25 policemen didn't know how to drive excavators.

1 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, you're moving on to another topic?

2 MR. NICE: Yes.

3 JUDGE MAY: It being a convenient moment, we will adjourn.

4 Witness K25, we're going to adjourn for 20 minutes. Could you

5 remember in this adjournment and any others there may be in your evidence

6 not to speak to anybody about it until it's over, and that includes

7 members of the Prosecution. Would you be back, please, in 20 minutes.

8 --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 12.38 p.m.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

11 MR. NICE: Your Honour, we're on paragraph 42. But just before we

12 move on to the few matters of detail.

13 Q. You've used the phrase mop-up, I think, in relation to this

14 operation. Can you just describe what you mean by that.

15 A. It's just a phrase in the Serbian language. A mop-up operation is

16 considered to involve pushing back the KLA from a certain territory.

17 Q. Picking up your narrative, was there an incident of confrontation

18 between your commander and local MUP over the robbing of refugees?

19 A. Yes. That happened at the intersection in Mala Krusa going

20 towards Beli Drim. On that occasion, three members of the local MUP tried

21 to rob the refugees who were moving in a column. And the company

22 commander, who was held at gunpoint by those three local policemen, was

23 forced to put on his rank insignia. And when we approached and cocked our

24 weapons at them, these three local policemen backed away and eventually

25 did not carry on with their intentions.

1 Q. On the 26th of March, were you positioned at the Mala Krusa

2 junction or thereabouts, and what did you see of a flow of refugees on

3 that day? Just tell us, please.

4 A. They came all the time, in smaller and larger groups. There was a

5 constant, intense flow.

6 Q. We've -- perhaps I'll come back to paragraph 45 a little later.

7 Can we just deal with uniforms at this stage.

8 MR. NICE: Can we have Exhibit 18, please. I'm sorry I hadn't

9 asked for it before.

10 Q. While that's being produced, what uniforms did the 23rd PJP wear

11 at the time of this operation?

12 A. The PJP wore green camouflage uniforms with visible PJP insignia

13 on their right shoulder.

14 MR. NICE: Your Honours, this is actually part of paragraph 45.

15 Q. Can you tell us, please, was there a practice of wearing ribbons,

16 and if so, tell us a little bit about it. First, was there such a

17 practice, and why were ribbons used?

18 A. Yes. During this operation, four colours were used in the form of

19 ribbons; yellow, red, blue, and white in various combinations. And the

20 reason was that KLA members were known to sometimes wear our uniforms,

21 invite policemen to approach them, and then kill them. Therefore, we wore

22 ribbons in order to be able to recognise one another. And there were code

23 books, changed on a daily basis, so that everyone knew which colour were

24 to be -- which colours were to be worn that day. And members of other

25 units did not have PJP insignia.

1 Q. Did you wear ribbons with your PJP green uniform or not?

2 A. No, I didn't.

3 Q. Because?

4 A. Because there were certain emblems of the PJP for the purpose of

5 identification. Everybody knew that our emblems and insignia could not be

6 easily procured, gotten hold of.

7 Q. At this operation, what uniform was the local MUP wearing and what

8 was the local - if there was a local - PJP wearing? And look at the

9 photograph, if you find help in that.

10 A. The local MUP wore blue camouflage uniforms, and the local PJP did

11 the same, but in addition, they also had their own PJP vests.

12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nice, is it suggested that there was any local

13 PJP members?

14 MR. NICE:

15 Q. Can you help us? Was there a local PJP presence here as well as

16 your own from outside?

17 A. Not during this operation.

18 Q. But generally in other operations, was there a local PJP presence?

19 A. Every SUP had their own PJP.

20 JUDGE KWON: And, Witness K25, when you are referring to local

21 MUP, does it mean the reservist or is it different from those?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All of them were part of the local

23 MUP, both active duty and reserve policemen. And as to what units they

24 belonged to, I don't know. I don't even know whether they were active

25 duty or reserve policemen.

1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

2 MR. NICE:

3 Q. Looking at Exhibit 18 on the overhead projector, does any of these

4 photographs show uniforms of the local MUP or, when in deployment, the

5 local PJP?

6 A. This would be the local PJP, local uniform, and the PJP uniform.

7 MR. NICE: Photograph 6, I think, was the one pointed out. And I

8 think that it can be removed.

9 JUDGE MAY: I thought it was 7 he was pointing out. Could you

10 point again, please, Witness K25, the PJP and also the MUP.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] PJP is this one. Local police and

12 local PJP is this.

13 MR. NICE: In which case, the first was number 7, the second was

14 number 6.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Although it doesn't necessarily mean

16 that the local PJP is depicted in this picture, because there were moments

17 when we, too, wore blue camouflage uniforms. We didn't on this occasion,

18 but on some previous occasions we did wear such uniforms, together with

19 our own vests.

20 MR. NICE: Can I, in order to try to deal with things so far as

21 possible chronologically, keep in reserve our return to paragraphs 45, 7,

22 and 8, and just cast ourselves back a little bit to paragraph 9 just to

23 conclude various operations before dealing with general matters. So

24 paragraph 9.

25 Q. Apart from the operation you've already told us about, were there

1 other operations in which you were involved, on which your unit was

2 involved, in particular one in Orahovac in late March, early April of

3 1999?

4 A. Yes. We took part, after Mala Krusa, in the next destination,

5 which was in Orahovac towards Milanovici, over the hill. Towards

6 Milanovici across Orahovac.

7 Q. How did the general scheme of that operation compare with the one

8 you've given us in more detail, Mala Krusa?

9 A. I don't understand the question. How do you mean how did the

10 scheme compare with?

11 Q. What was the purpose of the Orahovac operation?

12 A. The purpose of the operation was to continue the operation in Mala

13 Krusa under the wings of the large-scale cooperation which was aimed at

14 pushing the terrorists back to Milanovici and towards the village of

15 Malisevo.

16 Q. And we've seen in your marked map for Mala Krusa a box shape of

17 deployments of troops, an open box shape. Do you know one way or another

18 if a similar format was used in the next mission or operation at Orahovac?

19 A. I don't remember that, no.

20 Q. One detail about the Orahovac mission or operation: What if any

21 VJ support was provided to your group on that occasion?

22 A. Yes. The support provided was with mortar fire, 120-millimetre

23 mortar fire, because we were under fire ourselves. And the terrain was

24 highly inaccessible.

25 Q. We've heard about your -- I'm not going to trouble with paragraph

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1 10. Paragraph 11. We've heard about your detachment. Just give us an

2 idea, please, of its size. Of how many companies was the 23rd Detachment

3 composed?

4 A. It had ten companies.

5 Q. Each of how many men?

6 A. Between 150 and 180 men.

7 Q. Thank you. I move over from paragraph 12 to paragraph 13. In the

8 operations that you've described for us, how were instructions

9 communicated at the really local