1 Tuesday, 12 March 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

5 JUDGE MAY: This is the decision of the Trial Chamber on the issue

6 of the admissibility of statements under Rule 92 bis.

7 We have considered the Prosecution motion for the admissibility of

8 23 statements under the Rule. In principle, we will admit the statements

9 under the Rule, but subject to two conditions.

10 The first is this: Because of the cumulative nature of the

11 evidence and the fact that it will increase the already very extensive

12 number of witnesses proposed to be called by the Prosecution in this case,

13 and bearing in mind the need for an expeditious trial, the Prosecution

14 will be limited to four witnesses per municipality, including the viva

15 voce witnesses already called. The Prosecution is to select which of the

16 Rule 92 bis statements it wishes to have admitted for those municipalities

17 where at the moment it is proposed more than four witnesses.

18 The second condition is this: Because, in the view of the Trial

19 Chamber, the evidence proposed to be given is subject of an important

20 issue in this case, those witnesses whose statements are admitted will be

21 required to attend for cross-examination, the Prosecution being allowed in

22 each case to ask some introductory questions.

23 Written reasons for this decision will follow in due course. We

24 shall also consider any necessary adjustment to the timetable for

25 finishing the Prosecution case and any application to extend the number of

1 witnesses, on good cause being shown.

2 Mr. Ryneveld, we've just been handed a summary of a witness. It

3 appears that there's going to be another change in the order; is that

4 right?

5 MR. RYNEVELD: Not that I'm aware of, beyond the list that we

6 provided the other day. The one thing that may have happened, Your

7 Honour, is that my understanding is that once the present witness,

8 Mr. Loku, is finished, we will call Mr. Bucaliu, followed -- depending on

9 how long that takes, there is a -- we anticipate calling Dr. Ball

10 tomorrow. If there is time left at the end of the day, we might have the

11 opportunity of moving up another witness. But that was more a

12 consideration to accommodate the accused's concern about getting the B/C/S

13 translation of the document, and we thought that giving him an extra

14 evening of preparation time might well be of assistance. However, it's

15 hard to predict whether we'll even get that far today. But in the event

16 we do, that is a possibility. I trust that meets with the Trial Chamber's

17 approval.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Thank you.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. I propose, then, to continue with

20 Mr. Loku at this time.

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let's have the witness.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 WITNESS: HAZBI LOKU [Resumed]

24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld: [Continued]

1 Q. Mr. Loku, yesterday before we broke for the day with your

2 evidence, I had asked you, if I recall correctly, whether upon your return

3 from Macedonia you returned to your village of Kotlina, and I believe you

4 indicated you had, and you told us that you found your village to be

5 destroyed. Am I -- is that a fair summary of what you told us yesterday?

6 A. Yes, that's right.

7 Q. And, sir, I believe at that point I asked you whether or not you

8 had brought some photographs with you to The Hague, and I'm going to show

9 you now some enlargements of those photographs, if I may.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: And we have, first of all -- yes. Thank you.

11 Just so the Court knows, I intend to show him the first of three

12 photographs. That's it.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 56.

14 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Madam Clerk.

15 Q. Now, Witness, you're looking at a photograph.

16 MR. RYNEVELD: Might that be placed on the ELMO, Mr. Usher. Is it

17 coming up yet?

18 I don't know if the ELMO is operating, Your Honour. We're not

19 getting a picture.

20 There we are.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, here it is.

22 MR. RYNEVELD:

23 Q. All right. Sir, first of all, is that a photograph that you

24 brought with you?

25 A. Yes, this is a photograph I brought.

1 Q. And what do we see in this photograph? What is that a photograph

2 of?

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we had received

5 this photograph earlier, all of us, in the documents that we see -- that

6 we received several months ago. We had received these photographs

7 earlier. Therefore, I don't see what the problem is here now. Why are we

8 asking this gentleman whether he brought these photographs in? Because

9 we've had these photographs for several months now.

10 JUDGE MAY: Let him describe what the photographs are.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

12 Q. Sir, what is this a photograph of?

13 A. This is a photograph of the burned school where I used to work.

14 After we returned from Macedonia, we cleaned it up. This is the

15 photograph of the burned and destroyed school.

16 Q. All right. And that's in Kotlina; correct?

17 A. Yes, it's in Kotlina.

18 Q. All right. I'm going to show you now another photograph, if I

19 may.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: Mr. Usher. Perhaps we could give both sets now so

21 it will save time. Could you distribute those two photographs. And could

22 the first of those be placed on the ELMO and shown to the witness.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, we can see it.

24 MR. RYNEVELD:

25 Q. This is another photograph that you brought with you, sir, and

1 we've had enlarged; is that correct?

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 Q. And can you tell us what is shown in this particular photograph?

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Judge May.

5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic, what is the objection?

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, the objection is, Your

7 Honours, that these photographs already exist. I don't see what kind of

8 an explanation this is, that the witness brought them in now. These are

9 photographs that we received several months ago. Isn't that undeniable?

10 JUDGE MAY: You may have received them, but the Court has not seen

11 them, and we don't know what they are. The witness must be allowed to

12 explain what the photographs are. Now, we'll get on more quickly without

13 interruption.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, no, I agree, Your Honour.

15 That's quite correct. But I don't understand what this means when they

16 say that the witness brought these photographs in today. I'm asking this

17 because there are some things I would like to touch upon later. I don't

18 find this clear.

19 JUDGE MAY: You can ask him in cross-examination.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

21 Q. Witness, what is this a photograph of?

22 A. This photograph shows villagers returning after their expulsion to

23 Macedonia. It shows them assembled, and in front of them there are the

24 coffins which were later taken for burial. They are the burial of the

25 people who were massacred and who were exhumed by the Tribunal and were

1 prepared for burial.

2 Q. And the building in the foreground, more or less immediately

3 behind the row of people, what is that? What building was that?

4 A. Behind the people, there is the house of Baki Kuqi, a two-storey

5 house. You can see two entrances from the road. It's the shop, and the

6 other part is the residence, the dwelling part of the building. This

7 house is separated from the school only by the road. It's on the other

8 side of the road.

9 Q. And was this building destroyed during the course of the events

10 that you described to us in your evidence yesterday?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And this -- I'm sorry. The final of the three photographs, sir, I

13 take it that --

14 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm sorry. Do we have that yet? Has it been

15 distributed? Will you please distribute the final photograph,

16 Madam Registrar.

17 THE REGISTRAR: This photograph will be numbered Exhibit 57. The

18 present photograph, Exhibit 58.

19 MR. RYNEVELD:

20 Q. Would you look at this photograph, please, Exhibit 58, Witness.

21 Is this another slightly different angle, a shot of the same building in

22 the background on the right?

23 A. Yes. This is a photograph of the same building, but you can here

24 see the yard and the coffins which are here, have been brought from

25 Kacanik, and here are the people on the street, waiting.

1 Q. All right, sir. Now, just one question about those photographs.

2 Did you personally take them or were they given to you to bring with you?

3 A. I took them myself.

4 Q. And when did you take them?

5 A. I took these photographs when I came back from where I was. There

6 were a lot of photographs of this kind when we went to the funeral.

7 Q. Yes. And the month and the year in which you took these

8 photographs, please?

9 A. These photographs must be from September, when the funeral took

10 place. I don't remember the date, but it was September.

11 Q. And that was 1999, was it, sir?

12 A. Yes, in the same year.

13 Q. Now, one final issue, sir. I want to back you up to -- you've

14 told us about witnessing an explosion after the men were put into the two

15 holes you talked about yesterday. Upon your return, sir, did you find out

16 who was missing in your village?

17 A. It was while we were in Macedonia that we really found out who was

18 missing, by asking relatives, and then we counted 22 people who were

19 missing. And then, later, they were brought out of the pits for

20 examination, although some people hoped that some of their relatives would

21 in fact have survived.

22 Q. And were the bodies that were taken out of the pits identified,

23 sir?

24 A. I believe they all were.

25 Q. Now, you say that you saw these young men being thrown into the

1 pits; is that right?

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 Q. From your vantage point, could you tell their identities as they

4 were being thrown in? Could you see who they were?

5 A. I don't understand.

6 Q. From what you saw at the time they were being thrown into the

7 holes, could you see who those young men were who were being thrown in the

8 holes? Did you know them? Did you know them by name?

9 A. Yes, I knew the names of each one of them.

10 Q. And have you brought with you photographs of the names of the

11 people who you say were thrown in the holes?

12 A. Yes. I brought a photograph of each one of them, except for one

13 of whom I couldn't find a photograph because all of the photographs were

14 burned in their house. But I have brought photographs of all the others,

15 and I can identify them. I grew up with them and I knew them all.

16 Q. And the one person for whom you could not find a photograph, is

17 that an individual that you mentioned in your evidence yesterday?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And his name?

20 A. His name is Idriz Kuqi.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: Schedule L, the first name, Your Honours. There's

22 no photograph.

23 Q. Now, sir, these -- you brought us, I believe, some 24 photographs,

24 individual small photographs, did you, sir?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And you have seen that we have prepared five pages of a collage of

2 those photographs? You've seen that?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: I propose now to produce a further exhibit, with a

5 legend, and perhaps we can make these five pages of photographs one

6 exhibit number. And there's also a legend that will go with it. I don't

7 want the legend shown to the witness, but I want the Court to have it.

8 Q. Now, Mr. Loku, you'll see that there are some five pages of

9 photographs of individuals. Do you recognise those photographs as being

10 copies of the ones that you brought with you? Just quickly look at the

11 pages. Are those copies of the photographs you brought?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. All right. And could you tell us, please, looking at the

14 photograph -- each of these photographs now has a number above the

15 photograph. Can you tell us, please, the name of the individual, starting

16 with photograph 1. Who is that?

17 A. Number 1 is Adnan Loku.

18 Q. And that's on the schedule. Now, Adnan, I believe in the schedule

19 it's spelled A-t-a-n. Is that a correct spelling of the first name, sir,

20 or is it Adnan, A-d-a-n [sic]?

21 A. Yes, Adnan, A-d-n-a-n, with "d." Adnan.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: I believe that's the sixth name down on the

23 Schedule L, Your Honours.

24 Q. Photograph number 2, who is that?

25 A. Number 2 and number 8 are brothers. One 16 and one 17. One of

1 them is called Ibush and the other is Naser. I could get the names mixed

2 up.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Those names are on Schedule L, Your Honour.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Loku is their surname.

5 MR. RYNEVELD:

6 Q. Thank you. Photograph number 3, sir?

7 A. Number 3 is Mina Kuqi, a school pupil.

8 JUDGE MAY: We have the legend. We have the photographs. Unless

9 there's any dispute about it, I don't think we need go through them all.

10 We shall, of course, look at them, and we will be able to see ourselves

11 what the photographs show.

12 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. That may well be a better course of

13 proceeding, Your Honour.

14 Q. Now, I just have a couple questions of clarification.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, I just wanted to find out a

16 question. On the legend, several names similar to the witness's. Are

17 these relatives?

18 MR. RYNEVELD: I asked that question, Your Honour, and perhaps we

19 should have the witness --

20 Q. Yes. Many of these people, sir, that you have talked about have

21 the same last name as you. Are any of them relatives or is "Loku" a

22 common name in Kotlina?

23 A. I could tell you about each one of them. Number 2 and number 8

24 are the brothers Ibush and Naser Loku. They were the sons of Rexhep whom

25 I talked about yesterday.

1 Q. So they were relatives of yours?

2 A. Really close cousins, but they were from the same village. There

3 were two other brothers, Agim and Ismajl Loku. There were a lot of them

4 who were each other's cousins and who happened to be together. There are

5 cousins Danush Kuqi, who is a secondary school pupil. That's number 10.

6 Xhemjal Kuqi, number 12. He was his cousin. Sherif Kuqi, 11, was a

7 cousin, and Ismajl. Number 21 was his cousin, a closer cousin. They were

8 first cousins of each other.

9 Q. All right.

10 A. Shall I go on?

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: I just wanted to know how many of them were

12 relatives of yours. It appears that some of them were.

13 Thank you, Mr. Ryneveld.

14 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

15 Q. Now, for example, number -- photograph 23 --

16 A. The Kuqi family were cousins among themselves, not my cousins.

17 Q. Except for -- as I understand it, sir, you told us yesterday that

18 Zymer Loku, number 23, he was not found in the holes was he? You told us,

19 I believe, that you personally found him in a -- in a house. He was

20 wounded and died later.

21 A. Yes. Photograph 22 was the 72-year-old man Zymer Loku. He was

22 wounded, fatally wounded, and his right leg was cut off, and we found him

23 in the house yard.

24 Q. And similarly, 23 is your brother Milaim Loku?

25 A. Yes. That's the photograph of my brother.

1 Q. And he also was not in the holes?

2 A. No. He was in the river.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Given Your Honour's comments about the legend, I

4 might just have one further question.

5 Q. Sir, there are -- these are the 24 photographs you brought with

6 you, which include two people who were not in the holes; is that right?

7 JUDGE KWON: No. How about number 1? Idriz Kuqi was also shot in

8 a separate place.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: That's the one for whom he did not have a

10 photograph, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE KWON: Okay.

12 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. I believe those are -- given Your

13 Honour's comments, you have the legend. If the legend can also go in,

14 then, as part of the exhibit, I believe that obviates the need for any

15 further exhibits.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Exhibit number?

17 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 60 and the legend 60A.

18 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The microphone wasn't switched on.

21 Thank you.

22 Before I start asking my questions, I should like to draw your

23 attention to the following: This is an example of a manipulation with

24 semi-truths on behalf of the Prosecution which must not be allowed --

25 JUDGE MAY: This is not the time for comment, Mr. Milosevic. That

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1 point has been made quite clear. It's the time to ask questions. Now, if

2 you've got matters to put to the witness, put it to him so he can deal

3 with it.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Don't worry. I can do that

5 through my questions as well.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] You worked as a professor in the school and

8 technical centre in Kacanik; is that right? Yes or no.

9 A. I worked there for two years.

10 Q. Did you work in the actual school building or in a private house?

11 A. Where I was working, I was in the school.

12 Q. You also worked in Kotlina as a teacher; is that right? Did you

13 work there in the school building or in a private house there?

14 A. In the building.

15 Q. So in both cases, you used the state school building and not

16 private houses; is that right?

17 A. Yes. In the two places where I worked, I worked in the schools.

18 Q. What do you know about the fact that in Kotlina there was the main

19 headquarters for transferring weapons from Macedonia, that it was located

20 in Kotlina?

21 A. This is a lie of yours. It is not true.

22 Q. How far is it from Kotlina to the Macedonian border?

23 A. About 12 to 15 kilometres.

24 Q. And it is located at about five kilometres from Kacanik, on the

25 right-hand side of the main road running from Pristina to Skopje; is that

1 right?

2 A. It's on the right as you go from Prishtina to Skopje. I don't

3 know how far. Maybe, as the crow flies, five kilometres, no more. I

4 don't think it's five. On the road that I travel, it's three or four.

5 Q. All right. So much the better. The village of Kotlina is

6 adjoining to the village of Kotlanica [phoen], which is where the crossing

7 to Macedonia is on the Urosevac-Tetovo road on the slopes of Mount Sharre;

8 is that right?

9 A. Yes. There is a road to Gllobocica.

10 Q. The village of Kotlina, via the village of Ivaja, is linked to

11 Jezerce, is that right, across Ivaja?

12 A. No. Jezerci is far away, in Ferizaj mountains. It's another way.

13 Q. How far is it from Kotlina, I mean?

14 A. I can't give you a figure.

15 Q. Roughly.

16 A. Ferizaj is some 30 kilometres away from Kacanik. We are closer to

17 the border. Maybe it's some 40 or 50 kilometres from Elez Han.

18 Q. Yes, but I'm asking you about Jezerce. What's 50 kilometres away

19 from you? Kotlina?

20 A. Since you asked me -- I thought you asked me about the distance

21 between Kotlina and Jezerci, if I'm right.

22 Q. Yes. How far is Kotlina from Jezerce?

23 A. I think 40 kilometres. I've never been there. I can't give you

24 an exact figure.

25 Q. Do you know -- are you familiar with the position and role of

1 Jezerce in Kotlina during the war and before the war?

2 A. Regarding Jezerci, I might say that in summer, or earlier, we

3 heard the shelling of it, but I don't know exactly what went on there.

4 Q. Do you know that Jezerce was one of the main strongholds of the

5 KLA for the entire region of Kosovo and Metohija?

6 A. I've heard that KLA was stationed there, but I can't tell more

7 than that.

8 Q. All right. Let's go back now to your municipality. As you worked

9 in the municipality and in the school, do you happen to know that in the

10 municipality, 85 people were employed, 62 of them were Albanians? Are you

11 aware of that figure?

12 A. I've never worked in the municipality myself, so this is what you

13 are saying. I have always worked in the education sector. I lived in the

14 municipality in the last years of my life. Even though our municipality

15 was 99.99 composed of Albanian population, none of us worked there, I

16 think.

17 Q. In the municipality there were 85 employees, of which 62 were

18 Albanians, and as far as the figures that you have put forward, that

19 figure is incorrect. There were 2 per cent Serbs, which would make it

20 about 300 -- not about, but 335 Serbs and about a thousand Romany. Are

21 you aware of that, of those figures and that information?

22 A. I am not aware of any figures, and I don't know that these people

23 used to work in the municipality. When I had to go to the commune to take

24 some documents, I always encountered only Serbs there.

25 Q. And do you know that in the Sharre factory at Djeneral Jankovic,

1 right next to your village, of the 1.700 workers, more than 1.500 were

2 Albanians?

3 A. I know that there were Albanians in the past, but lately it was

4 full of Serbs.

5 Q. How could it have been full of Serbs when you said a moment ago

6 that there were no Serbs in that municipality of yours?

7 A. Not in the municipality, but they came from Shterpce commune, and

8 the Albanians who worked there were fired from their jobs and sent home.

9 There were three villagers of mine who were close neighbours, and they

10 were fired from their jobs and stayed at home.

11 Q. Where were they fired from?

12 A. You know better.

13 Q. I really don't know in Kacanik what the situation was.

14 JUDGE MAY: Just answer the question, if you would. You said they

15 were fired from their jobs and sent home, including three neighbours of

16 yours, and the question is: Which jobs were they fired from?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They used to work in this factory,

18 doing various jobs. That was a cement-producing factory, and they did

19 various jobs there. One was a mechanic, one was in another workshop

20 there, and so on.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. All right. Let's clear this matter up. I say that of the 1.700

23 workers, there were more than 1.500 Albanians working in the factory right

24 up until the war. Is that true or not? Yes or no. One thousand, five

25 hundred were Albanians.

1 A. I never worked in that factory, and I can't give you exact

2 figures, but when we went to the marketplace on Wednesday, we always used

3 to see Serbs driving to and from that plant.

4 Q. All right. And are you aware of the fact that in Kacanik, there

5 were more than 300 members of the Socialist Party of Serbia; of that

6 number, 220 were Albanians; and the secretary of the board was somebody

7 called Hanka Luka, an Albanian lady? Do you know about that?

8 A. I am not aware of that. I was never myself a member of that

9 party, so I don't know anything about its membership.

10 Q. Do you know that in Kacanik, an Albanian party was set up, and it

11 was called the Albanian Democratic Initiative, and the president of that

12 party was Faik Jashari? Are you aware of that?

13 A. This name doesn't ring a bell. I don't remember anything about

14 him.

15 Q. Let me remind you. Faik Jashari was also a member of the state

16 delegation in Rambouillet, at the negotiations that were held in

17 Rambouillet. Do you remember that? Does that ring a bell? Does that

18 help you identify the person I'm talking about?

19 A. No. I think you are fabricating such names. I don't know of any

20 names like this.

21 JUDGE MAY: Just deal with the questions, please. We'll get on

22 more quickly.

23 Yes, Mr. Milosevic, we've dealt with this question.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Do you know that in Kacanik a local police force was set up made

2 up exclusively of the representatives of the Albanian ethnic group and a

3 small number of Romany? Do you know about that?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you know that, from the village of Kotlina, the coordinators

6 for the local police force were Bashkim Loku. He has the same surname as

7 you do. His father's name was Sulejman. So Bashkim Sulejman Loku, and

8 Shaban Zenujlla Kuqi. Do you know about that?

9 A. Yes, I know these persons personally. I never knew they were

10 policemen because I've never seen them wearing uniforms. They are both

11 alive to this day; one living in Kotlina, the other in Ferizaj.

12 Q. And do you know that members of that local police force were

13 exposed to constant threats and attacks by the KLA?

14 A. What happened in the Serb police I know nothing about, but I don't

15 know they were in any way endangered by someone else.

16 Q. It was the Albanian police. According to my information, 12

17 members of the local police force were killed or kidnapped by the KLA, and

18 my question is do you know any one of these people: Nisem Tusha, Alia was

19 his father's name. So it is Nisem Alia Tusha. Osman Kuka. The father's

20 name Xheladia [phoen]. Bektish Melushe Dardiste [phoen]. Selim Agusha

21 Topolani. Shajip Emina Reka. Riza Faik Kiki. Bedri Shefki Berisha,

22 Qamil Emin Reka [phoen], Gazim Azem Sinanovic [phoen], Dalip Emin Reka,

23 Shaban Zenujlla Kuqi, and Baskim Sulejman Loku. Have you heard of any of

24 these people? Do you know any of these names? They were all local

25 policeman. As you can see, they were all Albanians and some Romany, one

1 or two Romany. Do you know anything whatsoever about these people?

2 A. I said that I know the two names you mentioned earlier. They are

3 my co-villagers. I know them in person. They are alive to this day. As

4 far as the other names are concerned, I can't tell you anything. I don't

5 know if they were police in uniforms, regular police, that is. They were

6 policemen. They must be in Serbia somewhere.

7 Q. Are you familiar with the fact that the KLA, according to the

8 local security, and they were a local police force, so not members of the

9 Ministry for the Interior, do you know because -- that because of their

10 relationship towards the local security people and generally the members

11 of the Albanian community who were loyal to the state, that the KLA, first

12 of all in the village of Ivaja and then in Kotlina, formed prisons for

13 them, set up prisons for these people? So I'm talking about Ivaja and

14 Kotlina, those two villages, the ones that you mention in your testimony.

15 A. I've never heard of that, and I don't -- and I don't think that

16 that was true. What you are saying, these people who are police, they

17 must have been staying with the police. So I know nothing about them.

18 Q. Do you know that in the village of Ivaja, in a prison of that

19 kind, they found and released a group of 15 Albanians who were prisoners

20 there? Do you know about that?

21 A. No. I've never heard anything about that.

22 Q. Talks were held with them and there is a videotape about that, but

23 you heard nothing of that? Fifteen Albanians?

24 JUDGE MAY: He says he knows nothing about it.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Do you know about the fact that before the NATO bombing in

3 Kacanik, there were many Albanians who were loyal to Serbia, a large

4 number of them, and that a group of -- in the summer of 1977 [as

5 interpreted] sent letters of support, and also in the spring of 1998 also

6 sent a letter of support to the authorities, energetically calling for the

7 suppression of Albanian terrorism? Do you know about that? It was

8 written up in all the papers which were sold in Kacanik, and it was from

9 the municipality of Kacanik that the event came from.

10 JUDGE MAY: The date -- one date has been translated for these

11 letters of the summer of 1977.

12 THE ACCUSED: 1997.

13 JUDGE MAY: 1997; very well.

14 THE ACCUSED: 1997.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. And the next expression of support was --

17 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness deal with the question so far. What

18 is said is that in the summer of 1997 and the spring of 1998, letters of

19 support were written from Kacanik, calling for suppression of Albanian

20 terrorism. Can you assist us about that or not?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know nothing of what he is

22 saying. Nobody told me that there was any such letters written. Those

23 who have -- who may have written those letters might know something. I

24 know nothing.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Forty-eight Albanians and Romany sent that letter, and that took

2 place on the 23rd of March, 1998.

3 JUDGE MAY: He says he knows nothing about the letter.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. And do you know about a decision of the Executive Council of

6 Kosovo and Metohija dating to February 1999, a February 1999 decision

7 stipulating that the Municipal Assembly of Kacanik should give out free of

8 charge land for individual housing construction to Albanians who were

9 citizens of the SRY -- FRY? Sorry. Who were citizens of Yugoslavia, in

10 fact.

11 A. I have never read any Serb papers, so I know nothing about that

12 either.

13 Q. You don't know that people built houses on that land, that

14 Albanians, Yugoslav citizens, built houses on that land that they got free

15 of charge?

16 A. I know that in my own village, everybody built his own home in his

17 own land, and nobody assisted them.

18 Q. Do you know that, afterwards, the KLA destroyed these houses of

19 theirs because they built it on state-owned land? Do you know anything

20 about an event of that nature, anything similar?

21 A. I know nothing that -- I know nothing about it, and it seems

22 absurd to me what you are saying.

23 Q. It is probably so. Do you know that during July and August 1998,

24 two large groups of terrorists were arrested, both coming from Urosevac

25 and Kacanik? They were arrested by the police. Are you aware of that?

1 A. I was all the time minding my own business. I went to school and

2 went back home, and I know nothing about that.

3 Q. And do you remember - it's not a big town, after all - in December

4 1998, by the village of Dimce near the border with Macedonia, when a large

5 quantity of weapons was seized? I'm linking this to the first question,

6 that Kotlina was used as the main channel for obtaining weapons from

7 Macedonia. So in December 1998, by the village of Dimce at the border

8 with Macedonia, a large quantity of weapons was seized, and on that

9 occasion the following persons were arrested: Berisha Valon --

10 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Let the -- let the witness deal with

11 the question.

12 You were asked about December 1998, and it is alleged that there

13 was a seizure of a large quantity of weapons at Dimce. Do you know

14 anything about that?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dimce is on the other bank of the

16 river. It's far away from where I live. I've heard that there are Serb

17 police stationed there and that in Han i Elezit they arrested some people,

18 but I don't know the motive for that. And usually we didn't trust the

19 Serb media because usually there was a lot of propaganda on it.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. I said Dimce at the border with Macedonia. Usually what is seized

22 is something that is illegally being taken across the border.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes. What is the next question?

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. The question was: Does he know these persons who were arrested,

1 that is to say, Berisha Valon, Berisha Ekrem, and Topolani Naser?

2 A. I never knew these people. I know nothing about them.

3 Q. None of them are from Kotlina?

4 A. No, none of them is.

5 Q. You know all the inhabitants of Kotlina, don't you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Are you aware of what happened in February 1999 when, in the

8 village of Djurdjev Do, the KLA attacked a police patrol? Three policemen

9 were wounded then, and five members of the KLA were killed. Do you

10 remember that event in February 1999?

11 A. No. I never heard about it.

12 Q. And do you remember that on the 20th of February, 1999, around

13 9.00 in the evening, that is to say 9.00 p.m., Selim Topolani was

14 kidnapped from his own house and taken out of it barefoot? He was

15 president of the Albanian Democratic Initiative for Kacanik.

16 A. I'm unable to answer this question.

17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we've been through this with other

18 witnesses. This witness cannot help as to these various allegations

19 you're making. You will have the opportunity in due course to -- you will

20 have the opportunity in due course to present evidence. You've put your

21 case very fully to him. Now, I suggest you move on and deal much more

22 with his evidence. Time is not limitless.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's precisely what I'm dealing

24 with, his statement, because all of these terrorist actions preceded the

25 event that the witness is treating as a central event, and now we're

1 getting go that.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Are you aware on the 27th of February that in the village of Gajre

4 a member of the local guard was abducted, and he also worked in the

5 factory called Krecara, Riza Kiki? An ethnic Albanian as well.

6 A. I don't remember. I don't know anything about this.

7 Q. And do you know on the 28th of February, around 1300 hours, again

8 in the village of Gajre, a large group of terrorists attacked the police,

9 who were going out looking for Riza Kiki, and on that occasion the

10 commander of the police, Bobuljub Staletevic [phoen], was killed and three

11 policemen were seriously wounded; then a terrorist was also killed, Asaj

12 Etema, from the village of Gabrice - he was in uniform and he had a

13 hand-held launcher with two grenades that had not been fired - and the

14 rest escaped? Do you remember that incident?

15 A. I did hear that something happened at Gajre. During that time,

16 the Serb patrols used to torture the people, and I heard that something

17 happened, but I can't give you any names about the victims.

18 Q. All right. So now we've reached the end of February, the first

19 days of March, the kidnapping of Topolani, the kidnapping of the local

20 policemen, the killing of a police patrol, and now we are getting to this

21 beginning of March that you had been talking about.

22 Is it correct what I'm going to state right now: that fighting was

23 taking place in that area, that the KLA was emptying villages, using empty

24 houses as fortified positions, which necessarily led to the fact that they

25 were shooting at the police from there, and this therefore made the Serb

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1 forces react to that? Is that correct?

2 A. I don't know what happened there, but as for my village, I can

3 answer about my village.

4 JUDGE MAY: Help us with this, Mr. Loku: Was there any reason

5 that you could see for the attack which took place at the beginning of

6 March and on the 24th of March on your village? Was there any background

7 to that which might explain it, as far as you're concerned?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my view, there was no reason for

9 my village to be attacked.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I proceed?

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. You haven't answered my question. The KLA emptied villages, used

14 empty houses - and I'm including the village of Ivaja there, the one that

15 you started with - they used empty houses as fortified positions, which --

16 JUDGE MAY: He said, Mr. Milosevic, in answer to that: "I don't

17 know what happened there, but as for my village, I can answer about my

18 village." That was his answer to your question.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, but may I remind you, then,

20 that here he stated that the village of Ivaja was attacked, and he's from

21 the village of Kotlina, which is near Ivaja, and he started his whole

22 story with the attack on the village of Ivaja, and that's what I'm

23 referring to now. As for what I've just read, I read it from the report

24 of the Verification Mission of the OSCE. But now I shall go on.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Is this assertion correct:

2 "Although it seemed that the villagers were on the side of the

3 KLA, there were reports that local people were forced to show support for

4 or join the KLA."

5 Is that correct or not, what I've just read out to you? Just say

6 yes or no, make a comment, whatever you prefer.

7 A. I'm not saying either yes -- the truth is, around the mountains of

8 Ivaja, the KLA was present. They had gone out voluntarily. Nobody forced

9 them. They could no longer stand the tortures to which the Serbian forces

10 submitted the population. Anybody who wished joined the KLA. That is

11 what I know.

12 Q. A short while ago I quoted to you how the KLA emptied houses and

13 turned them into fortifications, from which they were shooting at the army

14 and the police, and that's what this report says as well. That's why I'm

15 saying that the explanation is a manipulated one.

16 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, this is all comment. You can put the

17 report in front of us in due course, but for the moment confine yourself

18 to asking questions of this witness. He said he doesn't know anything

19 about what's written in the report. Now, can you move on.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's precisely what I've been

21 talking about. What is the key point in the witness's statement is some

22 kind of an attack on Ivaja and then Kotlina, caused by nothing, according

23 to him. It was all actually the other way around.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Do you know --

1 JUDGE MAY: This is his evidence. Now, you put your evidence in

2 front of us and we'll consider it, but there's no point arguing with the

3 witness when he's given his evidence, given his account. Now, can you

4 move on.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Fine. I'm just asking about

6 Kotlina. Please.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Do you know that the KLA detained, against their own free will, in

9 the village of Kotlina, refugees? They were not allowed to leave,

10 although the KLA and the UNHCR had an agreement on safe passage for

11 refugees outside the areas of conflict. Are you aware of that, that

12 villagers, refugees in Kotlina - I'm talking about the beginning of

13 March - were not allowed to leave Kotlina? The KLA didn't allow them to

14 do this, although the KLA had an agreement with the UNHCR on safe passage

15 for these people to get out of the zone of conflict.

16 A. This has been made up. No villagers were kept hostage by

17 anybody. I was in this village. They remained freely in their houses.

18 They had no reason to go anywhere. When fighting began nearby, we tried

19 to get away, but you killed us.

20 Q. Please, what is written here and what I've read out to you: The

21 KLA did not allow people to leave the zone of conflict --

22 JUDGE MAY: He has said it's not true. Now, we can't go further

23 than that. It's his answer.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. All right, Mr. May. I'm

25 just drawing your attention to the fact that this is written in the OSCE

1 report, the Kosovo Verification Mission report dated the 11th of March.

2 JUDGE MAY: We have been through that. In due course you can put

3 that report in, but for the moment you're asking this witness questions

4 and you've got his answer. There's no good going on about it.

5 JUDGE KWON: The question was about the refugees from other

6 villages, not about the villagers of Kotlina. Could you answer that?

7 Were any refugees kept hostage by KLA in your village?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, there weren't any.

9 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Proceed, please.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. After these clashes, when the verifiers finally got to your

12 village, managed to visit Kotlina, that is, they found the inhabitants of

13 Kotlina there and many displaced persons from nearby hamlets. They claim

14 that then the bodies of three men were found, who were identified as

15 members of the KLA. Is that correct? Do you know anything about this?

16 A. In our village, there was never any clashes between anyone. On

17 10th of March, the OSCE Verification Mission members came. They took some

18 old people and women of Dreshec neighbourhood, that was burned down, and

19 took them to Kacanik. We asked them that they take us away too, to some

20 safer place, but they told us that Kacanik was full of refugees from other

21 hamlets and there was no place for any more refugees. So they told us,

22 "Stay where you are, because we will take care of you." And this is what

23 happened. Until the 23rd of March, they stayed in our village and we felt

24 safe. That was all.

25 Q. During this incident, that is to say, when the Mission came, the

1 OSCE mission, when they came to your village, do you know when the problem

2 came up when the commander of the KLA did not allow the UNHCR access to

3 displaced persons in your village, in the village of Kotlina? Do you

4 remember that?

5 A. I don't remember to have seen any KLA members there. I am saying

6 that there wasn't any KLA members there. I said that OSCE observers came,

7 and they removed -- displaced some people of that neighbourhood that was

8 burned down. As for the rest, we stayed there. You had better ask the

9 OSCE observers. They might give you a better version.

10 Q. Since I wasn't there either, I'm asking you about what I read in

11 the report submitted by the OSCE monitors. They had a problem. The KLA

12 did not allow the UNHCR access to displaced persons in Kotlina. So you

13 know nothing of this; right?

14 A. I know only that the OSCE monitors came to Kotlina, took away some

15 people - nobody prevented them - and that when we asked them to help all

16 of us, to take all of us to Kacanik, as I said, they said that there is no

17 more room there to shelter more people, because people were coming in from

18 the surrounding villages every day. So they told us that it is rife with

19 refugees, Kacanik.

20 Q. All right. Now I'm going to put a specific question to you,

21 without beating about the bush. This also stems from the report of the

22 OSCE. It says:

23 "Although the problem had been resolved and the representative of

24 the KLA apologised, there were also indications that the KLA was

25 responsible for such a large number of refugees because they used these

1 villages as the front line of the conflict itself."

2 So do you know anything about this? Do you know why the KLA used

3 the village as a front line of the conflict itself?

4 A. I don't think that has been true of the KLA, because the KLA

5 members were staying in the mountains. And we were not refugees. We were

6 residents of the village. We were staying in our own homes. We were not

7 afraid of KLA, because we looked upon them as our defenders. We were

8 afraid of the Serb forces, police and army forces.

9 Q. My question was: What do you know about the use of village houses

10 as the front line in the conflict between the KLA, on the one hand, and

11 the army and the police on the other hand? What do you know about that?

12 A. This has never happened in my village. There were no KLA members

13 and no confrontations between them and the Serb forces.

14 Q. On the basis of what the report of the Verification Mission says,

15 it seems to have been the other way around.

16 JUDGE MAY: The witness said -- the witness has given his answer.

17 Can you move on.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If he has given an answer, it's a

19 very significant answer.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. At the beginning of March 1999, on the road between Djeneral

22 Jankovic and Seciste, Goran Milicevic was killed from an ambush. He was a

23 lieutenant and he was in a privately owned vehicle. Do you know anything

24 about that killing, the beginning of March 1999?

25 A. No, I don't know about this. I don't know the names of the

1 killed. Later we did hear that somebody was killed, but I don't know who

2 it was.

3 Q. All right. Do you know at least about the killing of Ziber Curri,

4 a member of Rugova's party, the DSK, that the KLA killed also at the

5 beginning of March 1999?

6 A. I heard that he was killed. I don't think what you say is true.

7 Q. And do you know that on the 27th of March, in the evening, at 1850

8 hours, that the terrorists attacked the police station at Stari Kacanik?

9 A. Could you give me the date again, please?

10 Q. The 28th of March, 1999. No, the 27th of March, 1999, at 1850

11 hours, the police station in Stari Kacanik was attacked.

12 A. I crossed the border on the night of the 24th of March. I don't

13 know what happened after then.

14 Q. But you spoke here about many things that you had heard about

15 subsequently from your fellow citizens, from other villagers, et cetera.

16 So it is logical that you could have heard about incidents of this

17 nature. You have probably heard of some events.

18 Did you hear, for example, that on the 28th of March, in Stari

19 Kacanik, a cluster bomb was thrown and it encompassed two hectares and

20 created about 80 craters? Are you aware of that? This is your

21 municipality.

22 A. No, I haven't heard of this.

23 Q. And are you aware of anything about a terrorist attack that was

24 carried out with hand-held rocket launchers in the street Boro Vukmirovic

25 [phoen] in Kacanik against the police, carried out by 20 armed terrorists

1 wearing camouflage uniforms, and nine policemen were wounded on that

2 occasion? Are you aware of that incident?

3 A. No. I don't know.

4 Q. And do you know about an attack near the house of Enver Koka in

5 the new neighbourhood of Kacanik? This was a terrorist attack against the

6 members of the police when a large quantity of weapons was seized and a

7 when a number of terrorists were liquidated? Do you know anything about

8 that?

9 A. No. I haven't heard of this.

10 Q. And do you know in your neighbourhood, in the village of

11 Doganovici, that NATO bomb killed five persons, Albanians? Two children

12 were seriously wounded. The children had found a cluster bomb and tried

13 to open it and then the following persons were killed: Hoxha Fisnik, born

14 in 1990 was killed, a child.

15 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness deal with the question.

16 Do you know anything about this incident?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The village of Doganaj is not a

18 neighbourhood of Kotlina. It's a long way away. I don't know what

19 happened there.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Are we talking about the same village? I say it's the village of

22 Doganovici. Is that the same thing?

23 A. I said Doganaj is not my village. I live in Kotlina.

24 JUDGE MAY: Do you know anything about a cluster bomb being found

25 by children, people being killed?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard that some children were

2 wounded there, but I don't know about anybody being killed, and I know

3 that the children were taken to Italy for treatment. But Doganaj was

4 another village. I don't know what happened in Doganaj.

5 JUDGE MAY: It's now 11.00. We will adjourn. Half an hour.

6 Would you be back, please, Mr. Loku, at half past eleven.

7 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

9 JUDGE MAY: The registrar wants to change an exhibit number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: The last exhibit submitted, the bundle of colour

11 photographs, has to be numbered Exhibit 59 and the legend 59A instead of

12 60.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Have I understood correctly that you said that you did know about

16 the children who were the victims of the cluster bomb?

17 A. I never heard about a cluster bomb. I know that in another

18 village, two or three children were wounded by a bomb, but whether it was

19 a hand grenade or what, I don't know. They went to Italy for treatment.

20 And this -- it can be demonstrated who they were.

21 Q. And do these names mean anything to you: Hoxha Fisnik, born in

22 1990; Hoxha Valdet, born in 1984; Hoxha Burin [phoen], 1985; Hoxha Edon,

23 1985; Hoxha Osman, 1985. These are the years of birth. These persons

24 were killed and Hoxha Bersnik, 1984; and Hoxha Avdija, 1980, all from the

25 village of Doganovici were wounded. Do these names ring a bell?

1 A. No. I don't know anything about them, and I don't know anything

2 about them.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I make one remark there,

4 comment, because there seems to be misunderstanding fairly frequently with

5 respect to names here on the transcript and geographical names, too. Let

6 me say that geographical maps are an international resource and that you

7 must use the names that exist on the maps.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Do you know about an event that took place when the vice-president

10 of the Municipal Board of the Socialist Party of Kacanik was kidnapped and

11 a worker on the railway and transport company at the Kacanik station, his

12 name was Mahmut Darlishta, with one of the Reka brothers in the Reka

13 Brigid [phoen]. Mahmut was found dead in the village of Dure and, later

14 on, Mahmut's son Esad was abducted. Do you know anything about those

15 incidents?

16 A. No. I know nothing about this.

17 Q. And do you know about the kidnapping of Mile Vuksanovic from

18 Pristina, who was otherwise a sanitary inspector who was visiting a friend

19 of his, a hunter in the area? His name was Xhemal Strazha?

20 A. No. I have never heard of these names or these things.

21 Q. Have you heard of another event when a NATO projectile hit the PTT

22 station and destroyed the surrounding facilities in the Kacanik area?

23 Once again, do you know about that?

24 A. No, I haven't heard about this, but the post office is still there

25 and it's still working.

1 Q. And do you know about the killing of Captain Milan Milenkovic in a

2 terrorist attack by a storehouse belonging to Kacanik-Comerc, a privately

3 owned company?

4 A. I don't remember this name, and haven't heard about his murder. I

5 know nothing about this.

6 Q. And do you know about six Serb families from Jankovici and 28 from

7 Kacanik who fled to Stari Kacanik? They were fleeing the terrorists at

8 that time. Do you know about that event?

9 A. I don't know anybody fleeing from terrorists. From Serbian

10 terrorists, yes. Entire villages were emptied and people went to

11 Macedonia.

12 Q. I asked you about the Serb families, the Serb families fleeing

13 from --

14 JUDGE MAY: He said he doesn't know.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. All right. When did you yourself return to Kacanik from

17 Macedonia?

18 A. I returned home from Macedonia around the middle of August,

19 together with my family.

20 Q. Did you hear, when you came back, that in Kacanik a retired

21 policeman by the name of Slobodan Stojkovic had been killed, who returned

22 from Stari Kacanik to his own apartment?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And are you aware of, also dating back to those days, the fact

25 that from Stari Kacanik a group of people were kidnapped - Dragi

1 Stankovic, with his wife Zivka and his daughter Gordana - by the village

2 of Gajre, and that his daughter and wife were raped before his very eyes,

3 and that they were then killed and he himself was badly wounded? Members

4 of KFOR found the dead bodies of Zivka and Gordana by the Partizanski Put,

5 at the junction going towards Brezovica, on the road there. Do you know

6 about that event?

7 A. I haven't heard about this and I don't believe such a thing

8 happened, because the Serbian civilian population no doubt went away

9 before the Serbian bodies arrived -- Serbian forces arrived.

10 Q. Today, in Kacanik, is there a single Serb left?

11 A. There were never any Serbs in Kacanik. I don't know if there are

12 any now.

13 Q. There were Serbs before, as you know, and I'm asking you whether

14 there are any left now.

15 A. There were Serbs in Kacanik i Vjeter, but in Kacanik itself, but

16 apart from the policemen, there were no Serbian inhabitants.

17 Q. Well, you said a moment ago that when you went to the

18 municipality, that you would encounter only Serbs there, and they, of

19 course, were not policemen.

20 A. Yes. They worked in the municipality. There were Serbian

21 municipal workers, but they weren't from Kacanik. They came either from

22 Kacanik i Vjeter or from Shterpce. They weren't from Kacanik itself.

23 Q. But apart from those working in the municipality, you also spoke a

24 moment ago of the fact that they were employed in companies, a company

25 from which, as you said, the Albanians were expelled. So how come you can

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1 marry the two, say that there were no Serbs and then say that there were?

2 A. I will say what I said before. Except in the village of Kacanik i

3 Vjeter, in which there were Serbs living, in the other 14 villages they

4 were all Albanians. The population were all Albanians, and employees and

5 policemen and the workers in the factories were Serbs. That was what I

6 said.

7 Q. Do you know that all 40 Serb houses in Stari Kacanik were looted

8 and burned?

9 A. I saw burned houses when I returned from Macedonia and passed that

10 way.

11 Q. And are you familiar with the following fact: that the KLA, after

12 the arrival of KFOR in Kacanik, destroyed all catering establishments

13 belonging to Albanians given to them by the Kacanik municipality, or

14 shops?

15 A. The shops were destroyed, but these were shops that were licensed

16 by the Serbian authorities, and they were built along the river and they

17 were built in unsuitable places. They were built along the road which

18 connected the clinic with the town. And that was why they were pulled

19 down. They weren't destroyed by the KLA, but they were demolished by the

20 municipality.

21 Q. Do you know any of these names: Riza Jivoreka [phoen], Jumni

22 Berisha [phoen], Kalishi Enver? They are all people whose shops were

23 pulled down. Do you know any of them?

24 A. Yes, I've heard these names, and these are people who are in

25 Kacanik somewhere. If you need them, they can testify themselves about

1 their shops. I know that they do have shops.

2 Q. Is it true that in Kacanik and Djeneral Jankovic, no facility was

3 burned or destroyed except the house from which firing came, and there was

4 firing at the MUP and the army, the police and the army?

5 JUDGE MAY: Can you help as to that or not?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand the question.

7 But there were no houses along the main road between Kacanik and Han i

8 Elezit.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. I'm talking about the places Kacanik and Djeneral Jankovic, those

11 two places.

12 A. What do you mean by this?

13 Q. I said that not a single facility was destroyed except for one

14 house, from which they opened fire at the members of the MUP and the

15 army.

16 A. I don't understand what you're saying.

17 Q. I want to know whether that is true or not.

18 JUDGE MAY: He doesn't understand the question. Now, rephrase it,

19 please.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. I claim that in Kacanik and Djeneral Jankovic, according to my

22 information, not a single facility was destroyed, nor was it shot at,

23 except for one house, a house from which there was shooting at members of

24 the MUP and the army. I don't know what is not clear in that question.

25 A. Now I am clear about the question. You are wrong. You have got

1 wrong information, because over half of Kacanik houses are destroyed as

2 well as those of Han i Elezit's. They were burned by the Serb police and

3 army forces. There are many witnesses to that. Not only the houses but

4 people were killed and mutilated. All this was committed by your army and

5 troops.

6 Q. All right. I claim the opposite. I was just asking you whether

7 you knew about it or not. But let's move on and go on to what you said

8 about the 24th of March. First of all, you said that the army shot from

9 tanks, fired from tanks, but that the shells did not fall on the village

10 itself but around the village.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. What is the question?

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Does he know that there were KLA positions located there?

14 A. I already said and I am repeating that they didn't shoot from

15 tanks' barrels but from weapons placed on the tanks and other weapons

16 carried by your soldiers and policemen. They shot at random. They shot

17 at the houses of the village. They didn't shoot at a certain target

18 because nobody was firing back at them from the village. I was there and

19 saw everything.

20 Q. You say that nobody shot -- did any shooting from the village, and

21 my information says that seven members of the KLA, wearing uniforms, died

22 there. Do you know about that? They were killed in the fighting that

23 took place in the village.

24 A. There wasn't any clashes in the village, and there weren't any KLA

25 troops there. The KLA troops were far away in the mountains. That's why

1 there wasn't any clash there nor any KLA members killed but only civilians

2 were killed.

3 Q. And do you know that after that, on the spot, an investigating

4 Judge and prosecutor from Rosevic went out to investigate and that all the

5 documents in connection with the conflict that took place in your village

6 and the death of those seven KLA members was sent to the Court in

7 Pristina?

8 JUDGE MAY: He has said there were not KLA members killed. So the

9 question involves something which he hasn't accepted.

10 Do you know anything about the court in Pristina or anything about

11 the investigating Judge?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't seen any investigating

13 Judges, with the exception of Serb police and army mutilating and killing

14 innocent people.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. So you didn't see those seven members of the KLA that were killed

17 there either.

18 JUDGE MAY: He said not, Mr. Milosevic. He's denied it. Now,

19 there's no point putting it to him again.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. All right. Does he know that the police, after the event,

22 searched the pits, the holes that he's talking about, and that in those

23 pits or holes, they just found weapons, and a large quantity at that of

24 tins and the remnants of KLA equipment because those pits served as a

25 basis -- as a base, sorry, base, of the KLA in Kotlina?

1 A. This is all made up. The KLA never operated in our village, and

2 whoever wished to join the KLA ranks, he might do so because the KLA

3 troops were in the mountains. So these are all -- this is all made up by

4 the Serb power.

5 Q. Those two holes or pits which they descended into with ladders,

6 one was five metres deep, the other was seven metres deep, and they were

7 joined together and they served as a warehouse. Did you know about that?

8 A. No, I don't.

9 Q. When the police arrived, there were no bodies in those holes

10 except for those weapons. How come nobody reported those dead bodies at

11 the time?

12 A. I already said and can repeat many -- as many times as you wish

13 that there were no bodies there. There were no arms there. These two

14 holes were dug by some peasant many years ago who was looking for water,

15 and he was unable to find any waters, but the holes remained there empty

16 all the time. And what you are claiming here is just a concoction, I

17 would say.

18 Q. All right. You said that on that day, and I made a note of that,

19 the soldiers left the village. How do you explain the fact then that,

20 after the army had left the area, nobody went to those wells once the army

21 had left? You said when the army left, you all rushed to see what was

22 happening -- what had happened to the livestock, the cattle, but you

23 didn't rush to see those victims that you talked about, the casualties.

24 So how do you explain this?

25 A. I have stated everything in my written statements. After the

1 departure of the occupation, criminal Serb troops from the village,

2 Chetniks and police troops, after their departure, I and others returned

3 to the village. We knew what had happened in those holes that I talked

4 about, but it was night. People went there to see what had happened, but

5 it was impossible. It was very dark up in the mountain. They couldn't

6 see anything. And it was only after some days that we realised what had

7 happened there. We saw what had happened there.

8 The father of Rexhep Loku, I said that his two sons were killed.

9 He found there belong -- things belonging. I mean, it is very difficult

10 to say what he had found. Remains of their bodies, pieces of fingers

11 left, broken teeth, stained clothes, stained with blood, things like that,

12 as well as a Serb cap belonging to police was found there. KFOR troops

13 got that cap with them.

14 Q. You said yesterday that when the army left, you went to see to the

15 cattle and that nobody went towards those wells. Why did you forget the

16 casualties of which there were some 20-odd allegedly --

17 JUDGE MAY: He's just answered the question. He said some people

18 went there but it was dark. Now, that's his answer.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, if you say he gave an answer,

20 all right, but he didn't give an answer to why nobody reported it if it

21 was true.

22 JUDGE MAY: Very well. The question is this: It's not clear to

23 who somebody should have reported it, but the question is why did nobody

24 report it?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't get the question.

1 JUDGE MAY: Well, I suspect it's been saying why didn't you report

2 it to the Serb authorities? Why didn't you ring up or something of the

3 sort?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But the Serb authorities had already

5 committed the crime. How could we report it?

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. All right. But the investigative Judge and the prosecutor went

9 there to the crime scene. So wasn't it logical for someone to draw their

10 attention to that? The investigating Judge or the prosecutor certainly

11 had not committed any crime. They came there for an on-site

12 investigation. How come nobody drew their attention to this?

13 JUDGE MAY: Can you help us to that?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The village was empty. There was

15 nobody left. People were killed. The civilian population was headed

16 towards Kacanik. The others, like me, were hidden, were in hiding

17 places. And I don't know if there was anyone else, with the exception of

18 police and army troops, there. One thing we all knew, that who was

19 captured was killed on the spot.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. According to your statement, there were KLA members around your

22 village, as you had put it; there were operations between the army and the

23 police and the KLA; and on the basis of what you've been saying, it was

24 only civilians who were getting killed. So who was getting killed:

25 civilians or members of the KLA?

1 JUDGE MAY: I think he's dealt with all this. We're now going

2 into argument. Mr. Milosevic, you've had more than an hour and a half

3 with this witness. Now, unless there's some new topic which is relevant,

4 it's time to bring your cross-examination to a close.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I'll bring it to a

6 close.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Distinguished Honour, if you want, I

8 may give an answer to that.

9 JUDGE MAY: No. You've dealt with all these matters.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Are you aware, in relation to these events that were first carried

12 in the Albanian newspaper Fakti, on the 16th of April, that practically

13 all statements are given afterwards, after that date, that is, and that in

14 the OSCE book, it says that:

15 [As read] "Therefore, what could superficially seem as

16 identicalness in the statements of witnesses could have been coloured in

17 some way by newspaper articles."

18 That's what their book says. Do you bring this together with the

19 event itself?

20 A. I have never given any testimony to Fakti newspaper and do not know

21 what it has been carrying. I have only stated what I know to the ICTY

22 Judges, investigators, even though that I didn't know that the day would

23 come when I would be here. But this is what happened, and I am happy to

24 be here.

25 Q. And do you know that what is said there in that book that I've

1 been referring to, that peasants were interviewed on the 30th of September

2 and that they confirmed that 11 members of the KLA were among the

3 casualties, according to their statements?

4 JUDGE MAY: He has given his evidence about the KLA. Now, there's

5 no need for constant repetition.

6 Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, since the accused has been repeatedly

8 referring to the OSCE book, I believe, in fairness to the Court, that the

9 Court ought to have copies of this book. He seems to be quoting from

10 pages 218 and 219, at the moment, of the OSCE book, as told, which is

11 projected as an exhibit in our case. It has not, of course, been

12 entered. I wonder if it might be helpful to the Court to have a copy of

13 that, since it's been extensively cross-examined on, much like you receive

14 statements from time to time.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes, it may be helpful, but let's try and finish this

16 witness's evidence, please.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: But that's the offer, that should the Court want

18 it, we would like to tender it.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

20 Now, Mr. Milosevic, have you anything else for this witness?

21 Otherwise, we must close the examination.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do. I do. I don't have a lot

23 left, but I do have something left nevertheless, related to what we've

24 just heard.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. On the other hand, I'm interested in when you gave statements, and

2 to whom, in relation to this.

3 A. I gave my statement in Skopje. If I am not mistaken, it was the

4 end of April. I don't remember the exact date.

5 Q. To whom? The end of April, but to whom? Only the representatives

6 of the OTP or somebody else?

7 A. The representatives of the OTP, of The Hague Tribunal. I have the

8 evidence with me, I mean the name of the person who interviewed me, if you

9 want.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's precisely what I have been

11 asking you about, because if it was only to the representatives of the

12 OTP, then the OTP, according to your Rules here, is duty-bound to

13 safeguard this information. I am drawing your attention to this question,

14 not the witness. How can this same thing appear in the book, then? Is it

15 the Prosecution that --

16 JUDGE MAY: Don't argue now.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

18 JUDGE MAY: If you've got some questions about the statement, ask

19 it, but otherwise we'll bring this to an end.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. In this paper that accompanies your written statement, it says why

22 he doesn't have a passport: lost. Why he does not have a birth

23 certificate: lost. Why he does not have other documents: lost. How did

24 you lose all these documents of yours?

25 A. Whoever had the documents had them on him [as interpreted]. I

1 don't know. I had my own ID when I went to Macedonia, where I was

2 registered as a refugee. I don't know about the others.

3 Q. All right. All right. That is just contrary to what it says

4 here. Here's this paper of yours, I mean the paper of this institution,

5 where it says "Hazbi Loku" and all these particulars: date of birth; place

6 of birth; passport, does not have it, lost; birth certificate, lost; other

7 documents, lost. So then this information provided here is inaccurate.

8 You actually did have all these documents, didn't you?

9 A. I had only the ID. The passport I had left at home. I didn't

10 have my passport. It was expired and it was no good to me.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I just want to make yet

12 another note. Since it is clear to everyone that the Prosecution has

13 available all these documents, including the Verification Mission of the

14 OSCE, the Prosecutor is no doubt manipulating this witness, trying to

15 portray events differently from what they actually were like.

16 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you are not to make comments and

17 arguments now.

18 Mr. Tapuskovic, have you got any questions for this witness?

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am making a comment, Mr. May,

20 because --

21 JUDGE MAY: No, Mr. Milosevic. You can make your comments in due

22 course. Now, I'm going to ask Mr. Tapuskovic to begin his

23 cross-examination.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. This

25 time I will indeed only adhere to the events related to the 9th of March,

1 the 24th of March only. I shall be putting questions related to the

2 statement that he, Mr. Loku, that is, gave on the 4th of June, 1999 - it

3 was submitted to us - and also this statement that Slobodan Milosevic has

4 been referring to. I'm not going to insist on that, but I would like this

5 other statement that he's been referring to, if it does exist, could the

6 Prosecution please make it available to you, the first one of the 12th of

7 June and also this other one that you gave in Albania. I think that you

8 should also have it before you.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I shall be very brief.

11 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ryneveld, yes.

12 MR. RYNEVELD: I don't know whether I misunderstood the question,

13 but is it the intention to have the Court have a copy of the witness's

14 statement? Is that what he's going to cross-examine on?

15 JUDGE MAY: Let's hear the cross-examination.

16 MR. RYNEVELD: Fine. I'm sorry. I misunderstood. I thought Your

17 Honour's "yes" was that.

18 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Loku, yesterday, when you spoke about what

20 had happened in the village of Ivanje, you said that around the village of

21 Ivanje, there were KLA soldiers and that they helped the inhabitants of

22 Ivanje to avoid the worst destiny. That is what you said yesterday, by

23 way of an explanation.

24 A. Yes, that's what I said, and that's how things were. There were

25 confrontations.

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1 Q. You said around the village of Ivanje. But in the statement that

2 you gave on the 4th of June, 1999, you said:

3 "I knew that in Ivanje" - in Ivanje, not around Ivanje - "in

4 Ivanje there are members of the KLA, and I believe they were resisting the

5 Serb forces. I could see a lot of smoke rising from this village."

6 That's what you said then.

7 A. Yes. I said around Ivaja. On the 8th of March, there were

8 clashes between KLA liberation forces and the Serb occupation forces.

9 At the same time, the inhabitants of the village I think were

10 there, but during the resistance, it lasted three days between the KLA and

11 the Serb forces, they managed to flee the village and escape the worst,

12 even though a civilian was killed. And we found that out later. He was a

13 sick person. Xhemil Mulaku was his name. He was killed in the vicinity

14 of the village while he was trying to hide away. He was sick and was

15 unable to flee with the others.

16 Q. Thank you. So it was not around the village. I'm telling you

17 that you said then in the village of Ivanje there were members of the KLA

18 and that then all of this happened, this three-day fighting. Not around

19 Ivanje, in Ivanje.

20 A. I said "around," because in Ivaja there was a population which the

21 KLA didn't stay with the population. It stayed in the mountains, I said.

22 Q. So it is not correct what it says here in your statement, that you

23 knew that in Ivanje there were members of the KLA?

24 A. Maybe it has been written wrong, but the fact is that even the

25 mountain where the KLA troops were stationed belonged to the territory of

1 Ivaja, but they were not in the village.

2 Q. Thank you. I'm just saying to you that this is what you said

3 then. That a mistake or --

4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic, you've dealt with this now.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 Q. Let us now move on to the 9th of March, in the morning. You said

7 yesterday that shells were falling all over the village, that the shelling

8 of the village came from the east and the north and that then you had to

9 decide to leave the village and that that is indeed how you left the

10 village. Did I understand you correctly?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. However, in your statement dated the 4th of June, 1999, you said:

13 "On the 9th of March, at around 4.00, two rockets were fired over my

14 village. These were rockets that illuminate the village. This lasted for

15 only about 20 seconds. We the villagers were then afraid that the village

16 was about to be attacked and we were preparing to flee. The villagers

17 that had seen the rockets had started to wake up friends in other

18 villages."

19 And then you said, "Due to these villages [as interpreted] fired

20 over the villages, about 30 villagers scattered about," and all in all, it

21 was the rockets that were the reason that made you go in the direction of

22 Globocica. Not the shelling because there was no shelling. That's the

23 way you'd put it then.

24 A. You've mixed things up, as I see. On the 9th of March, there was

25 shelling around the village, first sporadically and then incessantly. All

1 these things I experienced, it's difficult to put them down on paper. We

2 were the only ones left. We heard that all the other villagers of the

3 surrounding villages had been sent to Macedonia. We too, therefore,

4 wanted to flee the village.

5 Our village was visible from three Serbian positions, and they

6 continually moved round the village. They could see us from Serbian army

7 positions at the place called Kashan. They could see us from Gllobocica

8 and also round from the position in Kaburanca. In other words, we were

9 always under their control. So it's quite ridiculous what you say about

10 the KLA being there.

11 Q. Mr. Loku, I didn't mention the KLA at all. I said that you said

12 that your village had been shelled. You did not say that earlier on to

13 the investigators. You said the two rockets were fired that only

14 illuminated your village and that that was the reason why you had left.

15 You did not mention that a single rocket was fired.

16 This is the statement you made on the 4th of June, 1999. I did

17 not make a mistake. I've read it ten times, believe me.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes. The witness has dealt with that.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 Q. When the column arrived in the village of Preshec, when you left

21 the village, you explained what you saw. You saw burned and burning

22 houses. You said, "From my position, I could see clearly only two houses,

23 and I saw when they started to burn." I believe you that that's what you

24 saw. But you said yesterday that from there you saw, and you said it

25 several times at that, that all these houses were being looted, that

1 things were being taken out of them. You'd never mentioned that before.

2 A. From the point I was looking at, I saw the first two or four

3 houses of the neighbourhood. That was not a village. It was a

4 neighbourhood of Kotlina. The neighbourhood was empty because its

5 inhabitants had left it several days ago and had gone to the centre,

6 fearing that it was being fired from Serb positions of Gllobocica. So the

7 Serb forces, when they entered there, I saw them looting these two, three,

8 or four houses. Then later, we realised that all these houses were

9 burnt. None of them remained intact.

10 Q. I have understood you. I understood that yesterday. That's the

11 way you put it yesterday. However, before, you said you only saw two

12 houses on fire. You saw these houses burning, and I believe that's what

13 you saw. But you never mentioned that you had seen things taken out of

14 these houses. You said that the houses were burning from the inside.

15 A. I could see the police and the soldiers going in and coming out of

16 the houses. They were empty of inhabitants. And then they set fire to

17 the houses, and wherever they went in, they looted and raided. It was

18 fact of life. Everybody knew, because this was happening all the time

19 everywhere. The women had been robbed of their jewellery, and everything

20 was --

21 Q. Thank you. I asked you what you saw, and before you said what you

22 saw, and I believe you, but yesterday you said --

23 JUDGE MAY: We have been through this now and you have made your

24 point, Mr. Tapuskovic. Can we go on, please?

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I think you're quite right. I

1 would like to draw the attention of the Court to the following. It's in

2 the English version. That's why I decided to ask about it today. It's on

3 page 5, in the last paragraph, the beginning of the last paragraph, page 5

4 of the English version.

5 JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues]... please. Give it a

6 number.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 60.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. See, it refers to the well and those two holes, and the time

11 mentioned is about 1530 hours. Mr. Loku, is that what you saw, what

12 started happening? What you said yesterday about people being thrown into

13 those two holes, was this at 1530 hours, that it started around then?

14 A. After the departure of women and children from the village, then

15 they were -- the men were taken to the holes. It was about that time. I

16 didn't keep a diary or didn't keep watching at the time, but this is more

17 or less the time that I think it happened. I was feeling endangered

18 myself.

19 Q. You know that the army and the police were taking them, and you

20 said that there were about 150 of them, that they were taking them up a

21 small hill; is that correct?

22 A. They were taking them up towards those two holes.

23 Q. No. You said that they were climbing up a small hill, that they

24 were taking them up a small hill.

25 A. The Serb police and the army were fewer in numbers than police,

1 were taking those civilians, with their hands behind their necks, after

2 the departure of women and children, I said, towards these two holes up in

3 the mountain. But it is in a higher place above the village. There is a

4 high hill. It might be 200 or 300 metres above the sea level.

5 Q. Was the distance that you were at -- you were viewing it from

6 which distance?

7 A. I was viewing it from a place which was about 400, 450 metres away

8 in a straight line from these two holes. It was in the southern part.

9 The holes were situated in the northern part.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please

11 place on the overhead projector Exhibit 84 [sic].

12 JUDGE MAY: 84?

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] 54. 54. I have a blown-up

14 version which does exist in the Prosecution files. The Prosecution did

15 not exhibit it, and I'm surprised that they didn't because you can see

16 things much better there. And it is in the Prosecution files, so could we

17 please have this blown-up photograph shown rather than the first

18 photograph. The Prosecution does have it in its files. And then could we

19 have this shown to the Court as well.

20 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic --

21 You have a blown-up version of this?

22 MR. RYNEVELD: We have many photographs. Time doesn't permit me

23 to put them all in. I don't know which one my friend is showing me,

24 but --

25 JUDGE MAY: Just put it on the ELMO, the one that you want seen.

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Please take a look. It's the

2 same photograph that the Prosecutor showed but it's just much bigger.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Now, what do you want the witness to look at?

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Could the witness now please show the spot where he was and where

6 he was while he saw all of this. See, this is a forest.

7 A. Yes. There is a forest, but it was divested of leaves. There

8 were no leaves, so everything was visible.

9 Q. There are a lot of evergreens there, too. Can't you see that, a

10 lot of evergreen trees, conifers?

11 A. On 24th of March there were no evergreens. Everything was bare.

12 I could see everything.

13 Q. Could you please just show us the spot where you were.

14 A. The spot where I was is not in this picture, but it was somewhere

15 here at this corner.

16 Q. Further away, you mean. All right. And now from a 400-metre

17 distance, as you put it a few minutes ago, you saw all these persons by

18 name and surname as they were being killed. You saw from a 400-metre

19 distance how they were being killed and thrown into that hole. You saw

20 them all, knowing exactly who they were, name and surname. That is what

21 you answered when you were asked awhile ago.

22 A. You have mistaken what I said. I didn't say at that -- I didn't

23 know who they were by name and last name at that very moment. I only saw

24 what was happening to them, whereas their names and last names we managed

25 to find out later when we -- we heard about that when we were in

1 Macedonia. I couldn't see their faces, of course, from the distance I

2 was. I could only see their movements and what was happening.

3 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could this picture, which is also

4 in the Prosecution files, be shown. It shows the two pits, the two holes,

5 from nearby.

6 Q. Are these the two holes surrounded by a forest, by big trees? You

7 can't see a thing. Please take a look at it.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The Prosecution has this picture,

9 but they didn't show it.

10 Q. Are these the two holes?

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] And would the Prosecution kindly

12 present that evidence so that the Trial Chamber can take a look straight

13 away.

14 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Just a moment. Let the witness deal

15 with it first of all.

16 Do you recognise those holes or not?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can make out these holes, but it

18 doesn't look like them to me.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have two more photographs.

20 Q. Could you tell me whether you recognise those, of the spot

21 itself?

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] And these are all from the

23 Prosecution file.

24 A. Yes. Here you can see it clearly.

25 JUDGE MAY: Would you put it on the ELMO, please.

1 Yes. What's the question?

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The question is this: This is a

3 small area, deep in the forest, lots of big trees around it, and you can't

4 see anything from the big trees, not from five or six metres away, where

5 there were 150 to 200 policemen. Now, the question is --

6 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic, it's not for you to give evidence.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. I agree. Thank you.

8 JUDGE MAY: The witness has said that he could see. Now, unless

9 you've got a particular question about this photograph, we'll move on.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The question is: If he was at a

11 distance of 450 metres, how was he able to see what was going on deep in

12 the forest somewhere, in one particular spot, which was surrounded by

13 these large trees, as can be seen on these photographs?

14 JUDGE MAY: The witness has answered that. He said he could see.

15 Did you have anything to help you besides your own eyes?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer?

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The hills and the forest and the

19 holes are surrounded by oak trees, and it's a steep area, and you could

20 see. Because it was on a slope, you could see everything. It's a hill, I

21 would say very steep, and there are oak trees, and the oaks are not so

22 close to one another as the photograph seems to suggest, and at that time

23 of year, the oak trees were bare.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] That was the 24th of March, which

25 means spring, well into spring in those parts, and the trees have green

1 leaves during that time of year.

2 JUDGE MAY: He said there weren't any leaves on the trees. Now,

3 Mr. Tapuskovic, are you disputing that this event occurred?

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No, I am not disputing it, nor

5 did I have any intention of doing so, that in those holes they found what

6 they found. The only question is how this came about and what actually

7 took place. But I am not challenging it, no. Far be it for me. But I

8 have to ask myself, under the present circumstances, why the Prosecution

9 didn't show all the photographs it has, for us to be able to see for

10 ourselves.

11 JUDGE MAY: You've heard the reason. Now, have you any more

12 questions for this witness, please?

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, if it is big trees with

14 thick trunks, and if it was March, and I know full well that the trees are

15 green --

16 JUDGE MAY: We have been over this now a number of times. The

17 witness says he could see. There were no leaves on the tree, he says.

18 Now, we have his evidence. If we have any evidence to the contrary, we'll

19 consider it in due course, but I think you've really covered this topic as

20 far as you can.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I should like to ask for the

22 Court's indulgence, that is to say that the Prosecution provide the Trial

23 Chamber with the material it has, which are these photographs. If that is

24 not possible today, then the Trial Chamber will be able to notice certain

25 facts without me having to comment. I did believe that the Prosecution

1 would show the photographs, just like it did the ones a moment ago,

2 because it's all in one file, a whole set of photographs. They have

3 them. I have seen them. The Court has been provided with them. So ...

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, do you have any evidence to give

5 the Chamber as to when these photographs were taken?

6 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour. When we submit the forensic

7 report, which I believe has been tendered -- all these photos that my

8 learned friend is now referring to were taken by the Austrian forensic

9 team in September of 1999, September. We have to be selective

10 about -- time doesn't permit us to put bundles of photographs in. I chose

11 the photographs which I thought best depicted the scene. Now, if my

12 friend wants those in, we have them and we can provide them to the Court.

13 That is not the issue.

14 JUDGE MAY: Would you do that, please.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, we shall.

16 JUDGE MAY: Now, anything else for this witness?

17 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Yesterday he said that after seeing the people being thrown into

19 the pits, that a little later on he heard an explosion. How much later?

20 When did you hear the explosion? How much later was it?

21 A. This powerful explosion, it was before the evening.

22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter asks the witness to repeat his

23 answer to the question.

24 A. This explosion at the holes happened after 5.00, at about half

25 past 5.00, in other words, shortly before the withdrawal of the Serbian

1 forces.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. All right. But earlier on in your statement dated the 4th of

4 June, you said that the explosion could be heard some 30 minutes later,

5 that is to say, after the moment you saw the event happen.

6 A. I said that the event lasted about 30 minutes, all what happened,

7 but this explosion that I talked about happened a little bit later.

8 Q. You said some 30 minutes later, from the point where the hole was,

9 a strong explosion could be heard. That's what you said in your previous

10 statement.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. He's answered that. There's no need to answer.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 Q. Just one more thing. You said on the occasion that as soon as all

14 the Serbs left the place, after they had managed to put the tank right,

15 you went to tend to the livestock, to the cattle, and you left the village

16 at 2200 hours. Now, if that is so, I have to ask you once again why

17 nobody went to see what had happened to the people up there while it was

18 still daylight. Why didn't you go straight away to see what had

19 happened? Why did you not do this? And then that will be my last

20 question. I have no further questions.

21 A. During the day, the Serb forces committed atrocities against the

22 population, and we didn't dare go near where they were. We went to that

23 place where [as interpreted] they left the village. That is how it

24 happened.

25 Q. But you didn't go on that same day, did you, when they left?

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1 A. The Serb police and army left in the evening, when it was getting

2 dark. We went to Macedonia in the night, at about 10.00 or 11.00 p.m., I

3 think, after what happened.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Thank you, Your Honours.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: No re-examination. Thank you, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Loku, that concludes your evidence. You are now

8 free to go. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give

9 your evidence.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, for making

11 it possible.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Romano.

14 MS. ROMANO: The Prosecution calls Bajram Bucaliu.

15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16 [The witness entered court]

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you would like to take a seat.

21 WITNESS: BAJRAM BUCALIU

22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 Examined by Ms. Romano:

24 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, can you please state your full name for the Court.

25 A. I am called Bajram Bucaliu.

1 Q. Now, with a yes or no answer: You are 44 years old, and you were

2 born in Gnjilane on the 16th of June, 1957?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You are married and you have three children?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Since 1964, you have been a resident of the village of Fshati i

7 Vjeter, Albanian name, and Staro Selo, the Serbian version, in the

8 municipality of Urosevac/Ferizaj in Kosovo?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. May I have the witness shown -- it's OTP reference number 2274.

11 MS. ROMANO: And I have copies here. This is a map, a new version

12 of a map that has already been disclosed to the amici and to, I think, the

13 Court also. It's just the same map without the spots, blue spots. It is

14 a map of Kosovo.

15 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, can you please look at this map and can you indicate

16 to the Court where is your village located.

17 A. Yes. It is here at this place.

18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bucaliu. Mr. Bucaliu, you worked at the Ferizaj

19 railway station from 1982 until 1999?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you are currently working as a supervisor in the petrol

22 station?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In your village in Fshati i Vjeter?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. What is your ethnicity?

2 A. I am an Albanian.

3 Q. Were most of the people in your village Albanians?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And were there any Serbs living in your village?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you have an idea approximately how many Albanians and how many

8 Serbs?

9 A. In my village, there were about 900 Albanians and 60 to 70 Serbs.

10 Q. Was your relationship with your Serbs -- with the Serb neighbours

11 good?

12 A. Yes. At the time, up to 1990, it was relatively good. But after

13 1990, it changed.

14 Q. Okay. We will get to the point where it changed. Coming back to

15 your employment at the Ferizaj railway station. From 1982 until 1987, you

16 worked as a signalman at the Ferizaj railway station. That's correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And at the same railway station, you worked as a cargo inspector

19 from 1987 until 1992?

20 A. Yes, that's right.

21 Q. And as a cargo cashier from 1992 until 1999?

22 A. Yes, that's right.

23 Q. And how far is the railway station from your village,

24 Mr. Bucaliu?

25 A. The railway station is about three and a half kilometres from my

1 home.

2 Q. And you used to go every day from your village to the railway

3 station to work?

4 A. Yes, every working day.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MS. ROMANO: I propose to show the witness -- it is OTP reference

7 number 95, and it is a hand-drawn sketch done by the witness and it shows

8 his village. I have copies here.

9 THE REGISTRAR: The map will be numbered Prosecution Exhibit 61.

10 MS. ROMANO: Thank you.

11 THE REGISTRAR: And the drawing Exhibit 62.

12 MS. ROMANO: Thank you.

13 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, do you recognise this hand drawing?

14 A. Yes, I recognise it.

15 Q. Did you make that?

16 A. Yes. I drew it myself.

17 Q. And is this your village?

18 A. Yes. It's my village.

19 Q. Can you -- so can you please indicate to the Court where -- where

20 is your house located?

21 A. Yes. I will show them. Here are the three houses of my brothers

22 and myself.

23 Q. How many people live with you?

24 A. Until the start of the war, there were 16 of us living in the same

25 yard in several houses, but now I'm only with my own family which has five

1 members.

2 Q. And which direction, using the same drawing, which direction is

3 the railway station?

4 A. [Indicates]

5 Q. And can you also explain the road? Where does this road lead to?

6 A. From my village to the Ferizaj-Gjilan asphalted road. It goes on

7 to the station.

8 Q. Which are the neighbouring towns or villages?

9 A. The surrounding villages bordering on my village are Sojeva.

10 Bibaj, Komogllave, Varosh. These are the neighbouring villages and also

11 the outskirts of Ferizaj.

12 Q. How far is it from Pristina?

13 A. From Prishtina to the crossroads of Ferizaj, it is 35 kilometres.

14 Q. And how far is it from the border to Macedonia?

15 A. This crossroads is also about 30 kilometres from the border with

16 Macedonia.

17 Q. How many houses do you have in your village prior to the war?

18 A. Before the war, the village had about 120 houses.

19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bucaliu. Before March 1999, how many employees

20 worked at the Ferizaj railway station?

21 A. Before March 1999, there were about 25 staff at the Ferizaj

22 railway station. According to requirements, the number fluctuated.

23 Q. And how many of them were Albanians?

24 A. There were about 17 or 18 Albanians and about eight Serbs.

25 Q. Was your supervisor Albanian or Serb?

1 A. He was a Serb.

2 Q. At any time did you have an Albanian as your supervisor?

3 A. The stationmaster, during the time that I was working there after

4 1982, was never an Albanian except occasionally when there was -- when

5 there was a replacement, it was sometimes an Albanian, but there was never

6 an Albanian appointed to the job.

7 Q. And were the relations between the Albanians and the Serbs in your

8 work good?

9 A. Yes. We had quite good relations with my Serbian colleagues. For

10 a time, that is, up until the 1990s. But after 1990, relations started to

11 cool. Personal relations began to cool during the 1990s.

12 Q. What -- what was the reason that made the relationship between

13 Albanians and Serbs cool down?

14 A. I think this happened because things happened. Unpleasant things

15 happened in the political arena, such as the constitutional changes. This

16 was a reason which had a great influence on this cooling of relations

17 between the Albanians and the Serbs, because the constitutional changes

18 denied us many rights which we'd had until that time, such as, for

19 instance, the use of language at the workplace.

20 Q. How was the language --

21 JUDGE MAY: Ms. Romano, I think it's 1.00, it's just after 1.00.

22 We'll adjourn now.

23 Mr. Bucaliu, we're going to adjourn until half past two. During

24 this adjournment and any others there may be, don't speak to anybody about

25 your evidence until it's over, and don't let anybody speak to you about

1 it, and that does include the members of the Prosecution team. Could you

2 be back, please, at half past two.

3 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

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1 --- On resuming at 2.34 p.m.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Romano.

3 MS. ROMANO:

4 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, if I understand correctly, constitutional changes in

5 1990 denied the Albanians the right to use the Albanian language at work.

6 A. Yes, that's right.

7 Q. Can you explain to the Court how was this change implemented in

8 your work?

9 A. It was implemented, and at first, we tried not to observe this

10 constitution, and for a year -- after a year, we were given various

11 warnings and various punishments, but finally we were obliged either to

12 accept this thing or to leave our jobs. And at this time anybody who

13 didn't obey these rules would either lose his job or would be held

14 accountable and would have to do as the Serbs said.

15 To give you a specific example, when the station name plate was

16 changed, when the name Ferizaj was written in Albanian, it was changed to

17 Urosevac in Serbian, and the Albanian sign was taken away and a Serbian

18 sign was brought in with only "Urosevac" written on it. To better

19 illustrate this, there were some other examples in which my workmates, our

20 wages were docked if we didn't observe these rules.

21 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, just to clarify to the Court, what was the language

22 or the languages used in your work before 1990?

23 A. In our work, Albanian and Serbian were both official languages,

24 and we communicated in both languages with our Serbian colleagues too.

25 But after this, we weren't allowed to use our language in official

1 writing, and in the official instructions, and our language rights were

2 denied.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'd like to find out whether the rule or the law

4 which led to the loss of a job at work applied both to public and private

5 enterprises.

6 MS. ROMANO: First, Your Honour, I don't know if the witness said

7 that was --

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, he has spoken of people being dismissed if

9 they didn't use -- or if they used Albanian language at the railway where

10 he worked.

11 MS. ROMANO: Yes.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: And presuming that was a government-run railway,

13 I'm trying to find out whether people also lost their jobs if they worked

14 in private enterprises.

15 MS. ROMANO:

16 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, are you aware if the imposition of the Serbian

17 language was also in private companies?

18 A. Yes, of course. Official documentation in private firms too had

19 to be carried out in Serbian. For instance, firms that hitherto had names

20 in Albanian were obliged to change their names and to write their names in

21 Serbian and in the Cyrillic alphabet. Of course, those firms that wanted

22 to continue trading had to apply this law, otherwise they were closed

23 down.

24 MS. ROMANO: That clarifies, Your Honour?

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

1 MS. ROMANO:

2 Q. At your work, Mr. Bucaliu, did your Albanian colleagues, did they

3 know, all of them, did they know the Serbian language?

4 A. Yes. Usually they knew Serbian. The overwhelming majority of

5 Albanians knew Serbian and were able to communicate in it.

6 Q. And was there any punishment for the breaching of this rule? I

7 think you mentioned before.

8 A. Yes, there were cases, plenty of them. For instance, if you'd

9 like a name of somebody who was punished, in general, all the Albanians

10 that worked there, we were all punished at least once with a loss of 50

11 per cent of our earnings sometimes for three months or up to six months.

12 Q. Was there any colleague of yours who did not know how to speak the

13 Serbian language?

14 A. No. Maybe there were some that spoke with difficulty, but we

15 didn't have colleagues who spoke none at all.

16 Q. Thank you very much. Prior to the NATO bombing, were the police

17 or the army in the Ferizaj station?

18 A. Yes, they were. Even before the NATO bombing, the police were

19 there. They used to go round. Perhaps not the army, except when -- when

20 they had a specific task at the railway station such as a military

21 transport. Otherwise, the police used to come round.

22 Q. So was it usual for you to see the army or the police in the

23 station?

24 A. Yes. The police often -- not often but sometimes. But it wasn't

25 normal to see the army except in certain specific circumstances. When

1 they had a military transport, quite simply.

2 Q. Do you remember any occasion where there was not a military

3 transport but anyway you saw military people?

4 A. Yes, there were such cases. Especially there were officers who

5 sometimes came to the station and consulted with the stationmaster. I

6 don't know what about, but they did maintain ties between themselves. But

7 this was not often.

8 Q. You worked at the railway station up to 1999. Why did you stop

9 working there?

10 A. I worked at the railway station at Ferizaj until the 14 April

11 1999. Until then, I worked -- in fact, I worked until the 25th of March,

12 1999. But on the 25th of March, after the start of the NATO bombing, when

13 I went to work on the following day, my boss said, "From now on, you're

14 not going to work, but just report to your workplace but don't work."

15 This was very strange what he said, and I said, "Why?" And he said, "It's

16 an order from above." That's all he said. And I was surprised, to tell

17 the truth.

18 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, were the Albanians the only employees who were asked

19 not to come to work any more?

20 A. Yes, it was only the Albanians.

21 Q. And were the Serbs the only employees who worked at that station

22 after March 1999?

23 A. Yes. The Serbs, our colleagues who had been working there, they

24 stayed on working at the station.

25 Q. Even after that time, did you come back to the railway station

1 even after you were told not to come to work any more?

2 A. I would go every now and then. Not every day because it was

3 difficult to move around, and it was dan