1 Friday, 8 March 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Let me start off by

8 staying that this marathon testimony that we have been hearing for two

9 days now is the best confirmation of my warning to the public about the

10 main tactical movement on the part of the Prosecution as regards the

11 reversal of thesis or turning things upside down.

12 JUDGE MAY: Question for the witness. What is your question?

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Don't you worry.

14 WITNESS: SABIT KADRIU [Resumed]

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] First of all, what Council for Human Rights are

18 we talking about? Whose council is it? Whose Council for Human Rights?

19 A. The Council for Human Rights and Freedoms was set up in the 1990s

20 with the purpose of investigating the violence and terror perpetrated by

21 Serb police and army against the Albanian population. It also

22 investigated violence in general. It was an association of a humanitarian

23 character. I think that you must know that this council was registered

24 then at the Yugoslav Federation and it had its own seal, which I think was

25 issued by Mr. Kambovski. I don't very well remember what office he had

1 then, but this council operated in a public manner in Prishtina.

2 Q. And who founded it?

3 A. The Council for Human Rights and Freedoms emerged as a necessity

4 of the time. It was necessary to set it up as a result of violence and

5 reprisals that follow the deprivation of autonomy.

6 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kadriu, can I ask you to listen to the question

7 and try and deal with that. The question was: Who set it up?

8 A. It was founded by a group of intellectuals, but there were others

9 also who were honourable members of this council, but they were not

10 Albanians.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. And which intellectuals were these? A group of intellectuals.

13 You and how many others?

14 A. It was not me who formed this council in Prishtina. The Council

15 for Human Rights and Freedoms in Prishtina, it is a public fact when it

16 was known -- it was transparent in the public currents, not only in

17 Kosova, but also broad Kosova, I mean even beyond Yugoslavia.

18 Q. So it was founded by a group of Albanian intellectuals as their

19 own organ; is that right? That's what you said, isn't it?

20 A. I didn't say that. I said that in addition to Albanians, there

21 were others who were members of this council but who were not Albanians.

22 Of course, the initiative came from Prishtina.

23 Q. In your testimony, you say what you heard allegedly as the result

24 of the work of your council; is that right?

25 A. We carried out the duties of the Council of Human Rights and

1 Freedoms. We investigated cases of violence and reprisals committed by

2 your police against the Albanian population of Kosova.

3 Q. All right. I think enough has been said about that. You said,

4 when you started your testimony, that you were dissatisfied. You spoke

5 about your dissatisfaction with the Encyclopedia of Yugoslavia. Do you

6 know that that encyclopedia was published by the lexicographical institute

7 in Zagreb, in fact?

8 A. I'm sorry that at your insistence I was -- I mean, I was not

9 allowed to talk here about this encyclopedia of 1938. You said I am not

10 an expert on that, but I want to inform this Honourable Chamber that I

11 read this memorandum and that we paid with our own blood, all of us, in

12 Kosova. This memorandum drafted by Cubrilovic. It was a very highly

13 chauvinistic one. And the Academy of Sciences and Arts, after the war,

14 operated precisely having this notorious memorandum of 1938 as its basis.

15 I would like to remind you all here that even prior --

16 JUDGE MAY: That's enough, Mr. Kadriu. We must get through the

17 evidence.

18 Now, the next question, Mr. Milosevic.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Do you know that from Kosovo and Metohija, the president of the

21 encyclopedic committee was your own man of letters, Esad Mekuli?

22 A. The encyclopedia created discontent among the students and

23 intellectuals of Albania then.

24 JUDGE MAY: The question was, insofar as this is relevant, that

25 Esad Mekuli was described as the president, I think, of the encyclopedia

1 committee. Now, do you know if that is right or not?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember that. I only know

3 that it gave rise to discontent because the Albanian population of Kosova

4 were not given a deserved place in this encyclopedia.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. All right. And do you know who Esad Mekuli is?

7 A. Certainly, I knew who he was, because he had published collections

8 of poems, and I used to read them. And I was educated in the humanitarian

9 spirit that he preached through them.

10 Q. All right. He was the president of the encyclopedic committee for

11 Kosovo and Metohija, and anybody could read about that. You said that you

12 complained and that you asked to have a meeting with Bakalli. Do you

13 remember that it was precisely Bakalli who said that the demonstrations

14 were hostile? He termed them as being hostile himself?

15 A. We did ask to meet Mahmut Bakalli to discuss the situation that

16 was created as a result of this encyclopedia and the violence and terror

17 committed by the Serb police against the youths and students, but he

18 didn't come. Probably he was afraid of you, of the Serb leadership in

19 office then. He didn't come to discuss these issues with the students.

20 Q. How come Bakalli was afraid of me in 1981?

21 A. Not only in 1981, but the Albanian leadership of Kosova have never

22 been free to operate on their own will. They had to toe your line all the

23 time.

24 Q. And do you remember that all the political structures of the times

25 in Kosovo and Metohija assessed the demonstrations as being hostile and an

1 act along the lines of Albanian nationalism and separatism? Do you

2 remember that?

3 A. Not all of them, only some. Yes, they did characterise them in

4 the terms you said because they were under communist dictate, as I said,

5 which was led by Belgrade. It was the central committee then which

6 decided how these protests should be described.

7 Q. Could you please answer my questions without going into lengthy

8 explanations, because otherwise we're not going to be able to get through

9 all this. I'm saying this because I do not wish to be blamed for taking

10 up too much time myself.

11 You said that the demonstrations took on the slogan of "Kosovo

12 Republic." So the social and economic motive for the demonstrations were

13 rejected straight at the beginning. You said that economic backwardness

14 and discrimination of Kosovo and that the slogan was "Kosovo Republic"; is

15 that right?

16 A. All these, as well as discontent that was created right after the

17 Second World War, when you imposed a state of siege in Drenica, all these

18 forces obliged us to ask for a Republic of Kosova in the context of the

19 then Yugoslav Federation, because we thought that we were the third people

20 in terms of size in Yugoslavia, and we were not treated equally to the

21 others. The Montenegrins are one-third in numbers compared to us, but

22 they had their own republic, which we didn't. I think that would have

23 been the best solution even for Yugoslavia then, because in this way

24 democracy would be perfected. It would be an act of philanthropy, I

25 think, to give our people equal rights to other peoples.

1 Q. You mentioned just now the siege of Drenica after World War II.

2 Do you know what kind of siege of Drenica that was, in fact? Just say

3 "yes" or "no," "I do know" or "I don't know."

4 A. I do, pretty well.

5 Q. And if you know it pretty well, do you know that in that locality,

6 the Drenica locality, after the Second World War, after the fall of

7 fascism, for several years after that, in the forests, there were bands of

8 balijas who were collaborating -- Balistas collaborating with the German

9 occupiers and killing people, not only around Drenica but outside Drenica

10 as well, wherever they could get hold of somebody and leave them

11 headless? Do you remember that? Just say "yes" or "no," "it's right" or

12 "it's not right."

13 A. I can't answer this question with a yes or a no. Please, I'd

14 like -- I have the right to speak --

15 JUDGE MAY: What is the relevance of this?

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The relevance of this is in the fact

17 that the witness said a moment ago that an injustice had been done to the

18 Albanian people because of the so-called siege of Drenica after the Second

19 World War. Let me remind you that Drenica is the area around Srbica which

20 they called Dukagjin, or rather, Drenica, and that an injustice occurred

21 there. The truth is that part of the quisling formations who fought on

22 the side of Hitler withdrew to the hills around that area, and for several

23 years after that, the army made every effort to liquidate them.

24 Therefore --

25 JUDGE MAY: As far -- stop for a moment. We have to try events in

1 the 1990s, the late 1990s. Insofar as events 50 years before are

2 relevant, we will be the judge of that. Now, enough has been said about

3 this matter as far as this witness is concerned. We've heard his

4 evidence, we've heard what you say about it. Now, let us move on and more

5 closely approximate the time we're dealing with.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am exclusively dealing with that

7 particular topic, and I did not ask a single question or raise a single

8 matter that the witness himself did not bring up, so I don't think it is

9 in order for you to warn me and caution me.

10 JUDGE MAY: No. I'm dealing with the trial as a whole and dealing

11 with what's relevant. But let's move on.

12 No, don't make any comments. No. Let us -- just deal -- just

13 kindly deal with the questions you are asked.

14 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. You said that there should be a Kosovo Republic. Do you know that

17 the Albanians have their original mother country, matrix state?

18 JUDGE MAY: What is the relevance of this? It's not going to

19 assist us. No. Let's move on. Let's move on. Let's move on. He said

20 that there was mention of a Kosovo Republic at these demonstrations.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He did not say that it was

22 mentioned; he said it was the main goal of all the activities that were

23 undertaken by them, and the secession of Kosovo from Yugoslavia, and

24 seizing territory away from Yugoslavia and seizing territory away from

25 Serbia. That is what it was about.

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. And you said you were right because you were the third in size, as

3 you say, the third ethnic group or nationality in Yugoslavia by virtue of

4 size. Yesterday -- the day before yesterday, you said you were second in

5 size. Today you say you were the third largest, but that's not true

6 either. You come after the Serbs, the Croats, the Muslims and Slovenians,

7 so you would be, in fact, by virtue of numbers, fifth in line. So you

8 don't even operate with exact elementary figures.

9 JUDGE MAY: What is the question?

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. The question is: Does he know about the fund for the

12 underdeveloped, from which Kosovo and Metohija, for decades, was funded

13 and received several times more resources and financial support than it

14 created itself?

15 A. First, I didn't say that we wanted to secede from Yugoslavia but

16 that we wanted to have a republic in the context of the Yugoslav

17 Federation.

18 Regarding this fund, I would like to explain to you that this was

19 an international fund for the development of Kosova since it was the most

20 backward country in Europe. But you misused even the international funds

21 granted by international organisations for Kosova. It was the 1970s, I

22 think. I was young then, but I know it was an international fund for the

23 development of Kosova then.

24 Q. I can't even have a comment to something as ludicrous as that.

25 There was a fund for the development of the insufficiently developed

1 areas, a Yugoslav fund --

2 JUDGE MAY: We've heard his response and we can hear any evidence

3 which you wish to call about it. Now, let us more closely approach the

4 events in this indictment.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am talking about what the witness

6 spoke of, and I should like to ask you not to give me instructions,

7 please.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. You were asked the following: Did you deal with the violation of

10 human rights against the Serbs? And you were asked this by the

11 Prosecutor, and your answer was that there was no violation of Serb human

12 rights and that there was no violence against Serbs in Kosovo, when asked

13 whether there was any violence against Serbs. Now, we don't have to

14 ascertain what you said. We all heard it.

15 What I'm asking you about is the following: Do you know about the

16 violence against the Serbs over the past 20 years? Let me be more precise

17 and specific. Do you know about the killings and burnings and rapes and

18 cutting down orchards, the destruction of churches, the digging up of

19 cemeteries and graves and beatings up, all the other kinds of violence

20 that have taken place these past 20 years, from 1981, when you yourself

21 began to be in politics, the violence against the Serbs? And over 40.000

22 of these Serbs --

23 JUDGE MAY: Now, a question. Just a moment. Let me deal with

24 this. You've asked a series of questions in one.

25 The first question, Mr. Kadriu, is this: Were there violations of

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1 human rights against the Serbs during these 20 years?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If there were, there were very few

3 cases, extremely few, and the Council of Human Rights and Freedoms

4 recorded them. However, things were made up because we didn't have an

5 Albanian in power, and the power belonged to him, and the straight

6 apparatus and the courts were in his hands. Everything was in his hands.

7 JUDGE MAY: The next question is: Was there violence against the

8 Serbs? And the various forms of violence were alleged.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not remember any cases apart

10 from cases that were manipulated by the Milosevic regime. I remember a

11 case regarding a battle which was manipulated by the Serbian regime as a

12 pretext to intervene in Kosova.

13 JUDGE MAY: It's also alleged that there was destruction of

14 churches, the digging of cemeteries, cutting down of orchards. Is there

15 any truth in that?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't heard of such things.

17 Power was in the hands of Milosevic. Who would have dared to do such

18 things?

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Let me ask then before Milosevic, in the 1980s. Do you know about

21 the -- those violences -- that violence, say, from 1980 to 1990? "Yes" or

22 "no," "I do know" or "I don't know."

23 A. I do not know, because at that time, the Council for Human Rights

24 didn't exist, and there was no violence.

25 Q. We usually count time from the days of Christ, Anno Domini, and

1 not the Council for Human Rights. But as you lived before the time of the

2 Council of Human Rights, do you know how many inhabitants of Kosovo and

3 Metohija under pressure, under violence from the Albanians had to leave

4 the province? Do you know or do you not know?

5 A. They didn't migrate because of violence but because they had much

6 better living conditions in Serbia than in Kosova. Kosova was the poorest

7 place in Europe. They didn't have the conditions for Serbs to live

8 there. Why shouldn't they go to Serbia? They sold their land at a very

9 high price to Albanians, land which they obtained before World War II in

10 the colonisation programme, and they bought land in Serbia at half the

11 price of the land in Kosova.

12 Q. All right. I'm so happy that you know about the buying and

13 selling of land and that you're well-versed in real estate, but I'm asking

14 you, do you know how many Serbs had to leave in face of the violence

15 and -- of the Albanians in those years? Do you know or do you not know?

16 A. I don't know because the state apparatus was a Yugoslav one. It

17 wasn't ours. It didn't belong to the Albanians. Serbia always had an

18 influence over Kosova and controlled everything. It's absurd to think

19 that we had a state apparatus to expel people. The movement of people was

20 free. It was within the Yugoslav Federation.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: We don't need a dissertation.

22 Mr. Milosevic.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. You also claim -- right. We've cleared up that question, but

25 we'll come back to them later on. But you also claim that from the 1980s

1 or perhaps the -- 1990, the Albanians were thrown out of schools, and I

2 made a note of that here in my notes.

3 How many mixed classes were there? How many Albanian children

4 went to school up until 1999? Do you have any idea about this?

5 A. The removal of Albanian students from school, the classes were not

6 mixed. They were streamed and separate although in the same school, in

7 the same school buildings. However, the removal of Albanian pupils from

8 their schools took place in 1988, when you came to power with so much

9 commotion and strong feelings. You reminded the Serbian people of those

10 myths.

11 Q. All right. We'll never end this questioning if you take up so

12 much time with your answers. We'll never get through it all if you answer

13 in this way. So may I kindly ask you to give me yes or no answers or

14 brief explanations.

15 Do you know about the number of students, according to the

16 languages taught? So in Albania, tuition in Albanian and tuition in

17 Serbian, up until the 24th of March, 1999, do you know how many students

18 there were? I'm not talking about 1988 or God knows what year, but I'm

19 talking about the year 1999, the beginning of 1999.

20 Facts and figures. In Kosovo and Metohija, there was a total of,

21 in Serbian, tuition in the Serb language in schools, a total of 45.279

22 students. That is students attending tuition in the Serbian language.

23 And at that time --

24 JUDGE MAY: Stop there. Stop there. Mr. Milosevic, you rebuked

25 the witness for taking up too much time. You're taking up time with these

1 questions. Now, what's the question for the witness? 1999, a total of

2 45.279 students attending tuition in the Serbian language. That's the

3 point.

4 Do you know anything about that, Mr. Kadriu?

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, that is not my question.

6 Q. My question is whether he knows that at that same time, 235.881

7 students were studying in the Albanian language, at the beginning of 1999,

8 that is, 235.881.

9 A. What time are you talking about? Excuse me.

10 Q. I'm talking about 1999. That is to say, on the eve of the war.

11 A. The Albanian students were expelled from their primary schools,

12 high schools, and their university. They were thrown out of their

13 premises by police violence. Pupils, students were thrown out. They all

14 studied outside their school buildings. The whole world knows that.

15 Q. No one knows that. If the world knows about it, it knows about it

16 as propaganda. My assertion is that 235.881 students studied in the

17 Albanian language. The witness who was here the day before yesterday, the

18 man from Zegra, said himself --

19 JUDGE MAY: The witness has said that is not so. He said it's not

20 so.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. In the municipality of Vucitrn at the beginning of 1999, that is

24 to say, your municipality - I have heard that you are now president of

25 that municipality, or vice-president of that municipality - 12.258

1 students studied in the Albanian language, and in the Serb language, 39.

2 In the municipality of Srbica that you were mentioning, 102 students in

3 the Serb language and --

4 JUDGE MAY: Let him deal with one thing at a time. First of all,

5 the allegation is made about the municipality which the witness was a

6 resident of.

7 Do you know anything about that, Mr. Kadriu?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Milosevic is supplied with erroneous

9 information. In the village of Prelluzhe and Gojbuja, and the village of

10 Grace, all in Vushtrri commune, mainly inhabited by Serbs, and we don't

11 know how many school pupils there were because we are unable to go there

12 to investigate, but UNMIK looks after school students and sees that they

13 all go to classes.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. This has nothing to do with my question whatsoever. I asked you

16 whether you know that in the municipality of Vucitrn before the war, that

17 is to say just before the war broke out, 12.258 Albanians studied in the

18 Albanian language.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just say whether you can confirm that or not,

20 Mr. Kadriu, without making a speech.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not 12.000 but 14.000 students

22 studied outside the school buildings. They were deprived of their school

23 buildings by your police in 1991. We study in private houses. We turned

24 our houses into schools, and even there, we weren't left in peace. Even

25 there, they arrested dozens of teachers. You have arrested and convicted

1 dozens of teachers.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Next question, Mr. Milosevic.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. And do you know that the witness from Zegra who was here the day

5 before yesterday confirmed that children attended proper schools in school

6 buildings, not outside school buildings, and that that school had a

7 student body of 900, for example?

8 A. It is not true that Albanian pupils followed classes in school

9 premises, with the exception of some primary schools that were released

10 for their use.

11 Q. All right. You say it's not true and it is not true if that's the

12 way you are putting it.

13 A. It's not true. We worked in private houses.

14 Q. There are 62 students in the high school in Vucitrn studying in

15 the Albanian language, and at the technical school 106 students studying

16 in the Albanian language in Vucitrn. So in addition to primary schools,

17 I'm talking about secondary schools as well.

18 A. I -- the question is not clear. I don't know what answer to give

19 because there's no question, and I don't grasp the figures. I don't know

20 what you're looking for.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic -- Mr. Milosevic.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] What I am looking for is --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have heard a lot of evidence on this

24 question. Ultimately it will be for the Trial Chamber to determine what

25 weight to attach to the evidence. You should move on to another area now,

1 and as the Presiding Judge said, an area which is closer in the

2 allegations in the indictment.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to tell you that this subject

4 about this alleged discrimination against Albanian children, and as the

5 first witness, Bakalli, put it, apartheid is a subject that is very close

6 to the gravest accusations that have been levelled here. These are total

7 lies. Hundreds of thousands of Albanian children that studied in the

8 Albanian language are figures that are generally known, and --

9 JUDGE MAY: You've been told to move on, Mr. Milosevic. We have

10 heard these arguments and no doubt we'll hear more about them.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. And do you know that within the Geneva Conference in 1992 - in

13 1992, that is - the government of our country presented a proposal to

14 overcome the problems related to education in Kosovo? The problem was

15 that the Albanian separatists refused to give their curricula for

16 verification to the Ministry of Education of Serbia. That's what it

17 pertained to.

18 And do you know that within this Geneva Conference in 1992, our

19 government submitted a proposal that had several points? Are you aware of

20 this proposal that was related to reaching agreement on the maximum

21 guarantees of preserving the cultural identity of the Albanian minority?

22 This is under point one.

23 Point two, returning to the workplace --

24 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. This is supposed to be a question.

25 Now, let the witness deal with the original question.

1 Do you know about -- Mr. Kadriu, first of all, do you know about

2 this Geneva Conference or not?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This conference at Geneva, if it

4 acted on this basis, I can only tell you that all the teachers and pupils

5 were forced out of our schools. I don't know when this conference was

6 held, but I can inform the accused that he -- you removed teachers and

7 pupils from their schools with violence.

8 JUDGE MAY: That is not the question you were asked.

9 The next question is: If you know of the conference, do you know

10 that the government put forward proposals at the conference relating to

11 education?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is not true that the Serbian

13 government took an interest in the education in Kosova. It was interested

14 in destroying this education system. This was proved later, in the next

15 ten years.

16 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

17 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Do you know that in this programme, there was a proposal to have

20 all Albanian teachers returned to work, all of those who had left their

21 workplaces of their own free will, except for a very small number who had

22 committed criminal offences? Just say yes or no, whether you know about

23 this or not.

24 A. I won't answer with yes or no. Don't restrict my right to speak,

25 otherwise I can't -- I will not answer. You have deprived me of the right

1 to speak for ten years. Allow me to answer as I -- according to my

2 knowledge.

3 JUDGE MAY: No. Let it be clear: This is not a political

4 occasion; it's a trial concerned with criminal matters. It applies both

5 to you, Mr. Kadriu, and also to you, Mr. Milosevic. Now, you were not

6 being deprived of any rights here. The only point we make to you is to

7 deal as quickly as you can with any questions, focusing on the question

8 itself. You won't be restricted to yes or no unless it's an answer, but

9 if you can answer yes or no, it will enable the work to be done more

10 expeditiously.

11 Now, Mr. Milosevic, ask your question again.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Do you know about the proposal related to the return of all

14 Albanian teachers to their jobs, those who had left the workplace

15 originally due to this problem?

16 A. From 1991, every year at the beginning of September we tried to

17 enter the schools, but you prevented us. You had police contingents with

18 bulletproof jackets and equipped with --

19 Q. Don't repeat this. We heard this yesterday. Don't repeat it.

20 A. I don't know that there was any such thing. Until 1997, when,

21 together with the intervention of the Sant' Egidio organisation, something

22 was done to return Albanian pupils to their school buildings who had been

23 expelled by violence. There was an agreement with Rugova that was never

24 implemented, and you deceived him twice. The agreement was signed twice.

25 The Sant' Egidio organisation is also a witness to the fact that this

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1 agreement was not implemented.

2 Q. Yes. They are witnesses of the fact that the agreement was

3 carried out, and it wasn't elementary or secondary education that was a

4 problem; it was the university that, from September onwards, had received

5 tens of thousands of square metres of space. But I'm not going to go into

6 this any further, because we have already dealt with that here.

7 Do you know that in this programme there was --

8 A. It is not true what you're saying.

9 JUDGE MAY: I think now we have exhausted this topic. The Chamber

10 has heard enough.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You won't let me mention schools any

14 more at all?

15 JUDGE MAY: No, unless you've got some relevant question.

16 Mr. Ryneveld -- just a moment. Mr. Ryneveld, we've spent nearly

17 half an hour on this schools question. Now, it's true that the

18 Prosecution raised it first, and there was evidence from the earlier

19 witnesses about education. I think we need to reconsider whether any

20 further evidence should be adduced on this topic.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour. I am not aware that we are

22 planning on, beyond what we have done so far, to call further evidence

23 with respect to the issue of education, except perhaps through some expert

24 witnesses that are to be called in due course, but certainly not through

25 these types of witnesses.

1 JUDGE MAY: The danger is that we spend a long time in a trial on

2 matters which are strictly not part of the indictment and have very

3 peripheral relevance to it.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: I appreciate that, Your Honour. This evidence was

5 led more by way of historical background as to the immediate conflict. We

6 had no idea that this background information would be something that would

7 take up quite this much time. So I take Your Honour's point and we will

8 certainly take that into consideration in terms of the evidence we lead

9 from future witnesses.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We're of the view that you should move on,

12 Mr. Milosevic. You've heard what we've said to the Prosecution.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. I have just one more question, and please, it requires just a yes

15 or no answer, and could you assist me in this. Is the witness claiming

16 that Albanian students use the buildings of primary and secondary schools

17 in Kosovo and Metohija?

18 A. They didn't use them until 1997, some even later, until KFOR came

19 in.

20 Q. All right. You've answered the question. You mentioned Velika

21 Reka and the refugees who were staying there and that this was a programme

22 for changing the ethnic pattern. Do you know that this settlement for

23 refugees in Velika Reka was part of the habitat programme and was assessed

24 as one of the best of its kind by the international community and that it

25 has a total of 84 houses? Do you know about that?

1 A. I don't know how it was assessed by international community, but

2 one thing I know, that you instrumentalised it in order to change, to

3 alter the ethnic structure of the population of Kosova. Because if you

4 wanted to resolve that social issue, the social problem - and I really am

5 sorry for them - you would have settled them somewhere else where the

6 conditions were better: in Serbia, Vojvodina, or somewhere else. The

7 greatest density of population is in Kosova compared to all parts of

8 former Yugoslavia, and poverty, likewise, was higher there. You didn't

9 want to resolve the social problems, but just you used it for political

10 ends, to change the structure of the population.

11 Q. I asked you whether you know that this settlement has a total of

12 84 houses.

13 A. I don't know the number of houses, the exact number, but I know

14 that this is what you did in other regions of Kosova, with the aim of

15 altering the ethnic structure --

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. In relation to this alteration of the ethnic composition, do you

19 know that the number of refugees in Kosovo and Metohija totalled 5.000

20 altogether?

21 A. I don't know the number of columns. I don't have information to

22 that effect. We were unable to get any information from you about that.

23 Q. It is sufficient to say that you don't know.

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. And do you know that these 5.000 comprise 0.7 per cent of the

1 total number of refugees who came to Serbia, that is to say, less than 1

2 per cent, a lot less than 1 per cent? Are you aware of that?

3 A. I don't know what number that was, but I know the purpose, the

4 goal of that action, which was a political one, to change the ethnic

5 structure, and I am certain about that.

6 Q. Then the government carried it out in the contrary way, if that

7 was the objective, because do you know that the territory of Kosovo is 10

8 per cent of the total territory, and only 0.7 per cent of all refugees

9 went to that area? Can you do the relevant math? Yes or no.

10 A. I can't make any maths here, but I'm giving you the number of

11 buses that left Prishtina to the west as a result of the pressure and

12 violence exerted against the Albanian population under various pretexts.

13 There was not a single state in Europe that didn't host Kosovars that left

14 Kosova at that time, while you kept populating it with Serbs.

15 Q. Did you hear me say that there was a total of 5.000 refugees in

16 Kosovo?

17 JUDGE MAY: We've dealt with that.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness says that he cannot deal

19 with this math. On the other hand, he's dealing with the Academy of

20 Sciences and Arts, so I don't understand how come he can't do this math

21 that goes up to 10.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. You said that you were arrested and interrogated because you were

24 struggling for a Kosovo republic and because you were issuing documents on

25 which it said "Kosovo Republic," "The Republic of Kosovo." You said that

1 you were sentenced to 20 days in prison. Do you know that this is an

2 administrative sentence, not a criminal sentence, and it was actually a

3 magistrate for minor offences that had sentenced you to it? Yes or no.

4 A. Not only myself but all the Albanian teachers underwent -- or went

5 through those doors of your police, and we were all mistreated. I'm

6 telling you that Riza Bilali, who was the professor and the principal of

7 the secondary school then. Qazim Azemi.

8 JUDGE MAY: You were asked about your sentence. If it makes any

9 difference, it's said that it was an administrative magistrate who

10 sentenced you, or a magistrate for minor offences. Do you know who

11 sentenced you or not?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were sentenced only because we

13 taught students, for nothing else. The charges written there, it doesn't

14 matter what was written there; they were absurd.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As far as I'm concerned, he can say

17 whatever he wants, but you should make sure that he actually gives an

18 answer to my questions.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. So what about my question? Was this an administrative sentence?

22 JUDGE MAY: Well, what difference does that make? What difference

23 does it make?

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The difference is that he was not

25 prosecuted in terms of having criminal charges brought against him at

1 all. Administrative sentences are pronounced only --

2 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Now, Mr. Kadriu, would you deal with

3 that. Do you know it was purely an administrative sentence and not a

4 criminal one? If you know, just say so.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Milosevic should know it better

6 for --

7 JUDGE MAY: No. Don't comment on the evidence, please. Just

8 answer the question. Do you know if it was a criminal sentence or not?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were maltreated, beaten up, and

10 sent to prison. I don't know what name he may put it.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Kadriu, you did in fact serve 20 days in

12 prison for this offence?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. For the others, I had to pay.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Mr. Milosevic.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not only myself but others too.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Do you know that this kind of administrative sentence is

18 pronounced for violating public law and order?

19 A. What order were we violating when we were teaching our students

20 without being paid for that, without having the necessary conditions to do

21 that, escaping your police, trying to dodge the police in order to educate

22 the people? You should have subsidised the education and not ban it.

23 Only under your government, under your power, this happened. In no place

24 in the world -- I don't think there is any other place that this can

25 happen. This was discrimination. We were deprived of our right to

1 education, to educate our children.

2 Q. You have already stated that Albanians did not use school

3 buildings in Kosovo and Metohija. Since that is an untruth that can

4 easily be disproved, and there are hundreds and hundreds of examples to

5 prove that, I need no further explanation. I am asking you whether you

6 know that these administrative sentences are pronounced if you, for

7 example, do not pay the fine for parking in the wrong place and --

8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we've heard enough about this. We've

9 heard what you have said, and we've heard what the witness has said.

10 We're not going to get any further.

11 No. No. Mr. Kadriu, there's no need to go into this.

12 Now, next question, please.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Did he believe then and does he believe now that the documents

15 that they published entitled "The Republic of Kosovo," are legal

16 documents?

17 A. They were legal for us. We had our administration, our Ministry

18 of Education, which issued such documents. And then on these documents,

19 on these certificates, we put the marks, grades of the students. They

20 were legal. If that were not the case, then we wouldn't have continued to

21 teach our students, wouldn't have --

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's a sufficient answer, Mr. Kadriu.

23 Mr. Milosevic, next question.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. And do you think that these documents are legal now?

1 A. Certainly that they are. More than legal, because they had a

2 seal. They were certified by the school teacher, principal. They were

3 legal and issued by the Ministry of Education of Kosova.

4 Q. You said that you heard of the KLA in 1991.

5 A. I read in newspapers that something was being done in this

6 respect.

7 Q. All right. You were involved in public activities, as you had put

8 it, as far as back from the early 1990s. Do you know of the activity of

9 the organisation of Osama bin Laden in Kosovo?

10 A. I've heard about bin Laden this year. I had never heard of him

11 before. Only during this -- I mean, when the tragedy was perpetrated

12 against the American people, I heard about him. I never had heard about

13 him before.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: That is enough on that. Mr. Milosevic.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Do you know about the Mujahedin and their atrocities in Kosovo and

17 Metohija?

18 A. That's not true. It's not true that there were Mujahedins in

19 Kosova. This is a concoction of your mind, just a work of imagination.

20 Q. Just say it's not correct or, "I don't know." Don't take up my

21 time, please.

22 I'm going to read to you a passage, and you'll be able to tell me

23 whether it's correct or not:

24 "Al Qaeda [Previous translation continues] ... [In English] some

25 terrorist organisations that operates under its umbrella or which it

1 supports, including..." [Interpretation] I'm going to skip over this next

2 bit, [In English] "... Croatia, Albania," et cetera.

3 [Interpretation] Do you consider that to be correct?

4 A. That is not right. That is a fiction of your imagination.

5 Q. All right. [In English] Congressional statement, Federal Bureau

6 of Investigation. [Interpretation] Congressional statement of the Federal

7 Bureau of Investigation. That's what this is.

8 JUDGE MAY: What is the date of it?

9 THE ACCUSED: December 18, last year. After September 11.

10 JUDGE MAY: Very well. You can put that into evidence in due

11 course. Meanwhile, the witness says he knows nothing of it.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am asking the witness whether the

13 quotation I read out was correct. He said it was incorrect, that it was

14 false, and it was the product of my imagination.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. And now I am going to ask you the following, is this correct:

17 [Previous translation continues]... [In English] "... Afghanistan, Bosnia,

18 then Cechnya and Kosovo." [Interpretation] Is that passage I have quoted

19 correct?

20 A. I have no idea about that. I am not here to become an advocate of

21 Bosnia or Afghanistan. I am speaking here about Kosova.

22 There are no Mujahedin in Kosova. This is true.

23 Q. I asked you what you know about their activities, not whether they

24 exist there. That they exist has not been challenged. But what you want

25 to say is that you know nothing of their activities; is that it?

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1 JUDGE MAY: No. He says there were no Mujahedin in Kosovo.

2 That's what he says.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Very well. He doesn't

4 need that much assistance, obviously. [Previous translation continues]...

5 [In English] "identified in Bosnia, Kosovo, Albania." [Interpretation] Is

6 that true or is it not true, according to the knowledge you have?

7 A. I said I have no knowledge about other countries. Concerning

8 Kosova, I may say that there are no Mujahedins there.

9 Q. The last passage I quoted was the Congressional Research Service

10 Front Line. That was the source.

11 You spoke about an attack on the village of Cirez. That is

12 incorrect, because everything else you said is incorrect too. But as far

13 as this concrete event is concerned, I want to ask you the following: Do

14 you know on the 3rd of March, 1998, in the village of Cirez, KLA

15 terrorists killed four policemen? Do you know that?

16 A. I'm not aware of that. I know that there was an exchange of fire,

17 but I know that your forces killed people there. How can I know that, who

18 was killed there? I only know that people, civilians, even women, were

19 killed there.

20 Q. You don't know anything about that, about the fact that four

21 policemen were killed in a horrible manner from an ambush in the village

22 of Cirez, before the event that you talked about? In the village of

23 Cirez.

24 A. What did your policemen want to do in the houses of the Albanian

25 inhabitants of Cirez?

1 Q. Well, although I'm not here to answer your questions, let me tell

2 you that they were looking for weapons. And that is their legitimate

3 right. And do you know that the policemen were searching for weapons and

4 confiscated a large number of weapons, in fact? Do you know about that?

5 A. They didn't confiscate any weapons. They went and provoked and

6 mistreated people in their own homes. Just to give you an example, when

7 they searched my home, even my library was a problem for them.

8 Q. Apart from all this phraseology that you use with respect to

9 maltreatment, can you speak about material, actual facts and evidence?

10 That's what I'm asking you about.

11 You yourself said here, and I heard you say it with my own ears,

12 and it's probably been recorded -- not probably but it has certainly been

13 recorded, that at the end of February the owner of the house that was

14 mentioned by you, you said in self-defence, you used the word

15 "self-defence," that in self-defence he had killed a policeman, a

16 policeman who had come to search for weapons or to ask for documents and

17 to check something out. You say that that is self-defence.

18 Do you say that anywhere in the world to shoot a policeman that

19 comes to arrest you, for example, not even just to search your apartment,

20 to ask for documents, but can that be treated as self-defence anywhere in

21 the world? Anywhere in the world, is shooting at a policeman considered

22 being self-defence?

23 JUDGE MAY: Don't -- just a moment. Don't deal with the broad

24 question because that's a matter of comment, but deal, if you can, with

25 what happened, if you can give us any more detail of what happened when

1 the owner of the house killed a policeman.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know if the policeman was

3 killed then, because it was impossible for me to get any information. I

4 remember, however, that in Vojnik village in Drenica region, the police,

5 accompanied by armoured cars, had gone to search a house there, an

6 Albanian house. And then they went up to that conflict. How the conflict

7 evolved or how it happened, I don't know, but I only know that there were

8 casualties there in Vojnik too.

9 JUDGE MAY: And can you help us -- just one thing. Can you help

10 us with this: To your knowledge, did the police at this time, 1998,

11 search for weapons in the villages or not?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The police constantly used this

13 pretext to search all the Albanian houses and villages, every day. They

14 maltreated people every day in their own family members' eyes, right from

15 not only 1998, but as of 1991, this kept occurring all the time. I have

16 the chronology of the Council for Human Rights on this matter.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Thank you.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not in the least bit interested

19 in the imagined documents of this witness or his answers to the Prosecutor

20 with respect to these fabricated documents. I am interested in

21 material -- the material facts that he presented here, so I would like to

22 prevail upon you to ask him to answer the questions and not go on talking

23 about the last ten minutes.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. The Ahmeti family lost their lives in the conflict with the KLA --

1 JUDGE MAY: Before we go into that, you say that the documents are

2 forged; is that right, Mr. Milosevic? Is that the allegation?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me see what you said, because I

4 wasn't able to hear. There was some noise. I wasn't able to hear. Yes.

5 What I'm saying is -- I am claiming, in fact, that what this witness has

6 presented on behalf of his Council for Human Rights is pure manipulation.

7 That is what I maintain.

8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kadriu, it's been suggested that the documents you

9 have produced are forgeries. You should have the opportunity to deal with

10 that and comment upon it.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, no document that I

12 brought has been forged. I have brought documents from the municipal

13 government, signed by Slobodan Doknic, and I can be responsible for each

14 one of them. I can be responsible with my life.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is not the question here.

16 That's not the question. I'm not talking about that type of document.

17 We'll be coming to those types of documents in due course. What I'm

18 talking about is the information of his alleged Council for Human Rights

19 about the sufferings of the Albanians, and I consider that they are

20 completely -- it is a complete manipulation and nothing else. The

21 documents he's brought here will go into those, will explain those, and

22 easily. It's just a minor point, that.

23 JUDGE MAY: You were asking about the Ahmeti family. What do you

24 say? What do you want to ask?

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I said precisely that. He claimed

1 that they were killed by the Serb forces. I want to say that the Ahmeti

2 family lost their lives in a clash between the KLA and the police. That's

3 what it was all about, and no terror on the part of Serb forces against

4 this family. No Serb forces, as you call the police and army, undertook

5 the maltreatment of the population. The army and the police force did not

6 engage in any war crimes.

7 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness deal with that.

8 The Ahmeti family, it's suggested that they were killed in a clash

9 between the KLA and the police. What do you say about that?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Ahmeti family never fought with

11 the police or the army. They were in their own home on the evening when

12 they were surrounded. All the men were taken out of the house and were

13 executed in the most barbaric fashion. Meanwhile, the women underwent the

14 most appalling trauma gathered in a room. I won't talk about it.

15 Milosevic's army and police know what they did then.

16 Then a horror, massacre, took place. This has also been shown by

17 non-governmental organisations from other countries who were in Kosova.

18 Just call on their witnesses.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Judge, please.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: This is an important issue. It goes directly to

22 your case. You're saying that the Ahmeti family were in fact killed in a

23 clash between the KLA and the police. I think you are duty-bound to put

24 something more to the witness. Do you have any other question as to how

25 precisely they were killed in this clash between the KLA and the police,

1 or are you just making that as a general allegation? It would strengthen

2 your case, it seems to me, if you were able to put more precise matters as

3 to exactly how they were killed. Were they caught in a crossfire? Were

4 they fighting with the KLA?

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There are facts which exist, and the

6 facts are that in the village of Cirez, in that particular village, on the

7 3rd of March, the terrorists of the KLA --

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Put those allegations to the witness. Put them

9 to the witness as part of your case.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have put them forward, that is,

11 that on the 3rd of March, 1998, in Cirez, the KLA terrorists killed four

12 policemen, and that on that occasion, therefore, as a consequence of the

13 killing, there was a further escalation of the conflict between the KLA

14 terrorists and the police, and that the Ahmeti family was the victim of

15 that clash.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: What do you say to that, Mr. Kadriu?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am entirely

18 convinced and sure that nobody of the members of the Ahmeti family were in

19 the KLA. I can swear this on my life. None of them were involved in the

20 KLA. All the men were killed, with the exception of one, who was working

21 in the West. They were taken in their own homes.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, next question.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We're not staying here -- we're not

24 talking about the fact whether they were members of the KLA, but they were

25 killed in a clash between the KLA and the police.

1 But let me take it from the end, because this question was raised

2 at the end yesterday, the killing of the so-called Gerxhaliu family, and

3 we saw pictures here and all the explanations, attendant explanations.

4 There are witnesses who claim that the Gerxhaliu family was precisely

5 caught between the forces of the police and army, on the one side, and the

6 Albanian terrorists and bandits of the KLA on the other side, and that

7 they were sending out warnings to the Gerxhaliu family, cautioning them,

8 saying that it was very dangerous to stay in the army because the KLA was

9 shooting at the army precisely from that side.

10 I have a record here, a note here, which says, according to the

11 statement of Sali Gerxhaliu, a member of that same family, given to the

12 Human Rights Watch, and it was published in their book of 2001. The book

13 is called "Under Orders." It says that the investigating judge,

14 accompanied by the police, went to the site straight away to investigate,

15 and during the investigation, the people photographed were killed. And

16 you're probably taking this information. And the investigating judge was

17 a lady. She was a Serb. And when this occurred, there was serious

18 fighting between the KLA forces and the Serb forces. The KLA was both in

19 the village and around the village, and --

20 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, I'm going to stop you. You are

21 supposed to be asking questions at this stage. Now, how is it

22 suggested -- just a moment. How is it suggested that this family of men,

23 women, and children were killed in this clash?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand that Milosevic is a

25 master of --

1 JUDGE MAY: No. Just a moment.

2 Mr. Milosevic, how is it suggested that this family that we've

3 been dealing with, and the photographs of which of the bodies we have

4 seen, and the position, how is it suggested that they were killed in the

5 clash with the KLA? Can you tell us that?

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I can, but you didn't let me

7 read out this note that I received. It says: The army of Yugoslavia and

8 the KLA were fighting. They were in and around the village, that is to

9 say, the members of the KLA, and while they were leaving the house from

10 which they opened fire on the army, they liquidated the Gerxhaliu family;

11 the KLA did. Now, how they took in and brought out the bodies, that's

12 another question. So in the same book - and the book is called "Human

13 Rights --" - and it says on the same day, at 4.00 in the morning, he heard

14 two NATO explosions which --

15 JUDGE MAY: That's far enough.

16 You've heard the suggestion which has been made, Mr. Kadriu. Do

17 not comment upon it, or the source, but help us with this: As far as you

18 know, is there any truth in that suggestion? And can you assist us with

19 any more detail about how this event happened?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a mockery, a mockery of the

21 victims, and he should be ashamed of himself.

22 JUDGE MAY: No. That's precisely what is not going to assist.

23 Now, can you just deal with the matter factually, please. Now, you've

24 heard the suggestion. You say it's not true. Can you assist us at all

25 with any of the detail?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 31st of May, in the early

2 hours of the morning, military and police forces concentrated on the

3 Rashica neighbourhood, not more than 200 metres away, went down and

4 entered among the family of Selatin Gerxhaliu and then committed a crime,

5 executing the entire family. There were no forces of the KLA in Studime e

6 Poshtme because that was where Serbian forces were concentrated. This is

7 the truth. You might know the point where the Serbian forces were

8 concentrated.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the source of your information on this

10 particular incident?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. In this case, in his own

12 house -- not very far from his house, Shukri Gerxhaliu was

13 there - and he should be coming here as a witness - with his wife.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: You got this information from him; is that what

15 you are saying?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and from many others who know

17 about this case.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The microphone has just been

21 switched on. You forgot to switch it on after you had switched it off.

22 Now we have heard an absolutely fantastic assertion here, and for purposes

23 of clarity and for the record, I would like to ask another question to

24 make things clear.

25 The witness is saying that the police entered the house and

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1 killed, in cold blood, the Gerxhaliu family, and then sent for the

2 investigating judge to come and ascertain what they had done. Or perhaps

3 the other variant is the following: that the police entered, saw that the

4 family had been killed, and called the investigating judge to see the

5 crime that had taken place over a family. What do you, gentlemen, as men

6 of the law, think is more logical, particularly in view of the explanation

7 we've just been given?

8 JUDGE MAY: What is the question?

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the question is: Does he

10 claim that the police came and killed the family and then called the

11 investigating judge to come and ascertain how the family had been killed?

12 Is that what he's saying?

13 JUDGE MAY: Do you know, Mr. Kadriu, if the investigating judge

14 was called?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether he was called

16 or not, but this was an obstruction by the Serbian military and police

17 which they had done before. They would commit a crime and then call for

18 the judge. This was a form of obstruction for certain intentions.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very good, that. All right.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. As you have claimed on several occasions that there was no

22 violence committed against the Serbs, that is to say, you have claimed

23 that this false indictment claims that it is the Serbs who are the

24 culprits, do you know how many terrorist attacks were performed in Kosovo

25 and Metohija from 1991 until June 1999?

1 A. I don't know about attacks, because the state apparatus was in

2 your hands. I don't know. Things were staged, improvised, for certain

3 purposes.

4 Q. I'm talking about terrorist attacks.

5 A. I don't know that there was.

6 Q. You don't know anything about that? Well, how, then, did you

7 think you would protect human rights if you don't know about terrorist

8 attacks? How is that possible?

9 A. There were no terrorist attacks.

10 Q. Did you perhaps hear of the fact that in 1998 alone there were

11 1.885 terrorist attacks in that year alone? Just in that year, 1998, when

12 the terrorists were assisted by the German services and other services and

13 when they started all this. One thousand, eight hundred and eighty-five

14 attacks in 1998. Do you know about that?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. All right. As you weren't interested in what was going on and

17 being done against the Serbs, the police, and the army, or anybody else,

18 and you say that you were interested what was happening to the Albanians,

19 do you know the following: How many terrorist attacks there were on

20 citizens of Albanian ethnicity? Do you know how many of those were

21 performed in Kosovo and Metohija against Albanian citizens?

22 A. I know that attacks on Albanian citizens were made by your army,

23 escorted by your secret police in a jeep which -- of a dark olive colour,

24 who killed people on the streets, just as my workmate Skender Bllaca was

25 murdered.

1 Q. All right. You've --

2 JUDGE MAY: I think we're going to adjourn now. We'll adjourn now

3 for quarter of an hour.

4 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. So my question was does he know about the crimes of the KLA

9 terrorists committed against the Albanians, and I did not get an answer.

10 A. I already answered that question that during 1997, 1998, the Serb

11 secrete police moved about and around the place with dark-coloured cars

12 and killed the people. And among these people who were killed was also my

13 workmate Skender Bllaca, whose photo is here with me. And I can tell you

14 about his CV, if you wish. The police killed them at night.

15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Kadriu, the question you were asked was whether

16 you know whether the KLA members committed crimes against Albanians.

17 Just -- you can say yes or no.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is not true. These crimes were

19 committed by Serb secret police.

20 JUDGE KWON: Please stick to the question and simply answer it yes

21 or no. Thank you.

22 You may go on, Mr. Milosevic.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. My specific question in the context of these crimes of the

25 terrorists against the Albanians was what I asked you. There were also

1 inter-party killings. That's well-known. This was committed by Hashim

2 Thaci against Rugova's supporters.

3 Does he know of the following incident: The killing of Rexhep

4 Bajrami, Rexhep Bajrami from the village of Cecelija, who was an activist

5 of Rugova's in that village and who was killed on orders of the local KLA

6 commander whose name is Krasniqi? Otherwise, he is the uncle of Hashim

7 Thaci. The killing of Rexhep Bajrami was ordered by him only because

8 Bajrami would not take Rugova's picture off the wall. Does the witness

9 know about this event in the context of his work in the field of human

10 rights?

11 A. Your Honours, this name "Rexhep Bajrami" does not exist in

12 Vushtrri. I don't know anyone by that name to have been killed. Probably

13 the information the accused has is wrong. There isn't such a case. I can

14 say it in full authority. Not in my municipality.

15 Q. Does he know that in 1998 there were 327 terrorist attacks against

16 members of the Albanian national minority who were loyal to the Republic

17 of Serbia? In 1998, 327 attacks.

18 A. I don't know about that. I don't believe that there were

19 Albanians who were loyal to Serbia.

20 Q. Do you remember, for example, that a member of the Executive

21 Council, that is to say, the provincial government, an Albanian, Faik

22 Jashari, when you were expelling Serbs from Kosovo, stated: "The columns

23 of Serbs from Kosovo have been joined by 30.000 Albanians as well, those

24 loyal to the Republic of Serbia." Do you remember this statement made by

25 Faik Jashari, an Albanian who was a member of the provincial government at

1 the time when Serbs were expelled from Kosovo after UNMIK and KFOR came?

2 A. I don't know that there is any Faik Jashari in my municipality, so

3 I don't know anything about such an absurd statement. I don't know where

4 you get such statements, such false statements. There isn't anyone by

5 that name.

6 Q. And do you know that several Albanians were members of the

7 provincial government during the years of 1998, 1999, and during the war?

8 A. I don't know about that. No. I don't remember anything. I don't

9 remember of such a person being the member of the provincial government.

10 Maybe some quislings there may have been, but I don't know about that.

11 Q. Well, do you know about Faik Jashari? Was he an Albanian? Is he

12 an Albanian? What is he?

13 A. This is the first time to hear such a name, in this very court. I

14 say it in full responsibility.

15 Q. You never saw him, not even on television, or you never heard him

16 over the radio? You don't know of him at all?

17 A. I say it in full competence, I have never seen or never heard

18 anything about this man. It's the first time for me to hear it, in this

19 very court.

20 Q. And do you know about Albanians who were members of the delegation

21 of Serbia at the negotiations in Rambouillet? Have you heard of them?

22 Have you seen them on television?

23 A. I know that the Serb delegation was there, but I don't know its

24 composition. I know that some leaders were there, but I was never

25 interested to find out more about that composition.

1 Q. And do you know about another member of the government, also an

2 Albanian? There were a few of them. I'm not going to mention them all

3 right now, and Xhafer Gjuka is the one I'm referring to now. Your members

4 of the KLA slit his throat after the members of UNMIK came to Pec. Have

5 you heard of him? Have you heard of Xhafer Gjuka?

6 A. I have not heard of Xhafer Gjuka. I am from Vushtrri

7 municipality, and this is the first time to hear about this man too. I'm

8 afraid you have wrong information, Mr. Milosevic.

9 Q. I knew Xhafer Gjuka personally, so this bit of information I have

10 certainly is not wrong. I'm just asking you whether you know about it.

11 JUDGE MAY: He says he doesn't. No need to say any more.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. And do you know about hundreds of kidnapped civilians by the

14 Albanian terrorists, and do you know of the consequences of these

15 kidnappings? Do you know anything about it?

16 A. What Albanian civilians being kidnapped you are talking about? I

17 don't understand what you mean.

18 Q. I don't know what is unclear about this. As far as I know,

19 everything I'm saying is being interpreted to you in Albanian. I'm

20 talking about kidnapped civilians, civilians who were kidnapped by the

21 KLA, and many were killed later as well. Do you know anything about

22 that? That's what I'm asking you.

23 A. I don't know of such a thing. This is the first time for me to

24 hear that.

25 Q. All right. And do you remember the attack on the police station

1 in Prelluzhe on the 28th of August, 1998?

2 A. There wasn't any attacks mounted there. This village is inhabited

3 mainly by Serbs. I don't remember anything, but I can tell you that there

4 hasn't been any such case, otherwise, I would have remembered that. How

5 could Albanians enter a Serb-inhabited village?

6 Q. You claim, you claim as a matter of fact that in Prelluzhe there

7 were no Albanians; is that right?

8 A. In the vicinity of Prelluzhe, yes, there were Albanians, but in

9 the village per se, there weren't Albanians. Beyond the river, there were

10 some houses, which were all burnt down by Serb police and citizens of

11 Prelluzhe. They were the first houses to be burnt in 1998. Even to this

12 day, the Albanians have not returned to those houses in the vicinity of

13 Prelluzhe.

14 Q. Since you claim that there were no Albanians in Prelluzhe, how do

15 you explain, for example, that in 1990, in 1990, the president of the

16 Executive Council of Albania, a man by the name of Xhaferi signed a

17 decision transferring Albanian children from the school in Prelluzhe to a

18 school 50 metres away in the village of Donja Stanovci? Since there were

19 more of them there, they would attend school together. How do you explain

20 that document, for example?

21 A. This happened in 1998, if I remember right. I was doing my

22 military service then. And I recall when on television I saw the coverage

23 of the meeting held between -- among the Serb citizens whereby they asked

24 that all Albanians leave the vicinity of Prelluzhe where they were living,

25 as well as the children should leave the school. This is the first time

1 that Albanians started to be evicted from schools in Kosova. The Albanian

2 students, I mean. I remember also the speeches, the extraordinary address

3 you gave then, in which you called for a Greater Serbia, and so on and so

4 forth. You would just be --

5 JUDGE MAY: No. Don't go on.

6 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Where did you see this speech of mine, the speech that I made?

9 Where did I take this speech?

10 A. I remember very well. I said I was doing my military service, and

11 then we had to follow all your speeches. Your officers forced us to do

12 that.

13 Q. Where did I make this speech? You said that you had to follow my

14 speeches. Where did I make that speech?

15 A. You made that speech in Belgrade. We were obliged to see it on

16 television. And your officers started to take pride in you after that.

17 Q. What did I say in this speech?

18 A. I remember very well you saying that either Serbia will lie from

19 Mali i Gjoshit to Gjergjeli or it will not exist at all, and I am certain

20 about that.

21 Q. Serbia does begin from the border with Hungary and it ends at the

22 border with Macedonia. I don't understand what you tried to say. That I

23 said that Serbia would be in Macedonia as well: Is that your assertion?

24 A. This is what you said then, in 1998. That was your claim then,

25 not only about Macedonia, but you wanted to have a Slovenia, Croatia,

1 Bosnia as well.

2 Q. All right. Of course this is not true, and that is not what it

3 says there. But this is just as incorrect as other things you've been

4 saying here, so I'm not going to engage in a debate with you on that.

5 Let me continue from where I had broken off. You do not know

6 anything about the killings of Serbs, Albanians, civilians, policemen,

7 kidnappings; you know nothing about any of this, right? On the contrary,

8 your assertion is --

9 JUDGE MAY: He's dealt with this. Now, what is the question?

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. All right. Do you know about what happened on the 19th of

12 September, 1998, in the village of Makmal, on the road between Glogovac

13 and Serbia, the attack against policemen, when three policemen were

14 wounded?

15 A. I don't know of this case, because I am from Vushtrri

16 municipality, so I don't remember. I don't know.

17 Q. Excellent. And do you know, then, of the attack in the village of

18 Oshlan, in the municipality of Vucitrn, on the 22nd of September, 1998,

19 when the police were attacked by automatic rifles and hand-held rocket

20 launchers, and when Milos Radic, a policeman, was killed? Do you remember

21 that incident? On the 22nd of September, 1998, the municipality of

22 Vucitrn, the village of Oshlan. Do you remember that?

23 A. On 22nd of September, 1998 -- and in my evidence yesterday, I

24 informed the Court that all the villages on both sides of the mountains of

25 Cicavica were attacked by police and military forces. This was a very

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1 extensive offensive, involving both the police and the Yugoslav army.

2 Q. Well, yesterday, you yourself, as you were explaining something

3 else, that the KLA was stationed - these are your words - stationed in the

4 area of Cicavica. That is what you said yourself yesterday, of course,

5 not in this respect, but while you were explaining other things, but that

6 is also recorded. So the KLA was stationed in the area of Cicavica. How

7 can you then speak about attacks on villages and villagers?

8 A. I don't deny what I said. I said that the KLA had various

9 positions in this area. However, the attack by the police and military

10 was on the civilian population. Civilians were killed, and I have their

11 names here with me.

12 Q. [Previous translation continues]... the army and the police went

13 to shoot at civilians there, not the KLA?

14 A. The KLA was not a terrorist army; it was a liberation army for

15 Kosova. And you killed civilians there, and I have their names here. Not

16 only killing them, but mutilating them.

17 Q. As for massacres, we know whose specialty that is. That is why I

18 asked you whether you knew about Al Qaeda branches in Kosovo. It is known

19 very well who massacres and who cuts heads off.

20 JUDGE MAY: You have dealt with that. Now, this is not going to

21 assist the Trial Chamber. What is the next question?

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Do you know that on that very same day, the 22nd of September,

24 1998, there were several attacks against the police in the village of

25 Oshlan, that is to say, between 1200 and 1500 hours, when two policemen

1 were wounded, Marko Galo [phoen] and Milutin Ivkovic in the village of

2 Oshlan, that is to say, on the 22nd of September, 1998, in the

3 municipality of Vucitrn, that is to say, your municipality?

4 A. As I said before, on the 22nd of September, the offensive started

5 against 27 villages to the east of Cicavica, and other villages beyond

6 Cicavica, and this offensive caused more than 200 people executed, all of

7 them civilians with the exception of one, who was a soldier of the KLA.

8 With one exception. The others were civilians.

9 Q. And in the same village, on the 23rd, that is to say, the next

10 day, again the police were attacked. Slavoljub Ivkovic and Micko Vranic

11 were the victims. Do you remember that?

12 A. The police were not attacked, because these villages are mainly

13 inhabited by Albanians. But it was the Serbian police and military

14 surrounded these villages on both sides of Cicavica and kept them as if

15 in quarantine until the 25th of September, until they were freed.

16 Q. So your claim is that in all these incidents, on the 22nd, on the

17 23rd of September, when all these policemen that I have mentioned were

18 killed or wounded, that all of this was actually in the police campaign

19 against civilians?

20 A. I don't know that there were Serbian soldiers or policemen wounded

21 or killed, as you claim. However, I do know that the Serbian army and

22 police exercised terror against 27 villages in Vushtrri municipality and

23 other villages in Gllogovc municipality, and this led to the massacre of

24 many civilians.

25 Q. So you claim that the KLA did not kill anyone, did not wound

1 anyone, that it was the police attacking civilians and even attacking and

2 killing themselves.

3 A. In Vukovar too, and in Srebrenica, civilians killed each other,

4 according to your logic.

5 Q. No, according to your logic. That is your assertion, that this

6 was all done by the police.

7 JUDGE MAY: Let's move on.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Do you know that on the same day, on the 23rd of September, in the

10 village of Dubofc, Radoje Cvetkovic, a policeman, was seriously wounded in

11 this series of attacks against the police?

12 A. I know that on this day, the 24th, you executed 13 young men and

13 elderly people and killed a woman, and among those people executed, three

14 were pupils of the school where we worked. Fourteen we buried in the

15 village of Galice. They were all civilians, and I can say this with total

16 confidence. Their bodies were also mutilated.

17 Q. Who killed them?

18 A. Your police and army. Your police and army, led by Janic, who led

19 the offensive masked with Vucina Janic.

20 JUDGE KWON: That's not the answer to the question you were asked.

21 And at this time, Mr. Milosevic, I understand you may put

22 questions to this witness regarding your case to a certain extent, but in

23 terms of time we are given today, I'd like to advise you to concentrate

24 more on factual issues which appeared, emerged, during the

25 examination-in-chief. As you were told yesterday, we are going to finish

1 with the witness today, so we have not more than two hours from now on.

2 And you yourself said that you have some questions regarding the documents

3 this witness presented yesterday, so why don't you start with some

4 specific questions regarding those kind of matters.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is precisely concrete issues that

6 I'm addressing, specific ones, because it's not true that the army or the

7 police committed any crimes whatsoever, which is something that this false

8 indictment and the witness brought in by this false indictment is trying

9 to show. But, yes, let me move on to the specific.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. You described as a massacre of civilians --

12 A. In other words, they were extraterrestrials.

13 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kadriu, let the accused finish his question.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. You spoke about the events that took place in the village of

16 Prekaz when a bandit group of Adem Jashari died, and that's a very good

17 example of how killers and terrorists are being proclaimed to be

18 civilians. And you yourself said here, and it says so in your written

19 statement as well, that Adem Jashari was overcome, overpowered when he ran

20 out of ammunition. Therefore, you yourself here in this place quite

21 clearly indicate the fact that Jashari and his group fought against the

22 police and shot at the police. And as you know, there were several tens

23 of them in numbers. Is that true or is it not?

24 A. Adem Jashari defended his own home and defended his own doorstep.

25 I do know that. But I also know another truth, and that is that in Adem

1 Jashari's house, women, girls, and children, were massacred. Sixty-three

2 graves were dug, mainly of civilians. I do not know -- I do not deny that

3 Adem Jashari defended his own home, but you attacked it. You attacked him

4 in his own home.

5 Q. Do you know how many Serbs and Albanians Adem Jashari killed and

6 looted with his band of men before the police came to arrest him?

7 JUDGE MAY: Just deal with the question which is put or should be

8 put in this way: It's suggested that Adem Jashari had a band of men. So

9 the first question is this: Did he have a band of men?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On that day when Adem Jashari was

11 killed alongside his family in his home, there were women, children, and

12 elderly people who were massacred. There was a large family and a lot of

13 them were killed, with the exception of one small girl who survived.

14 JUDGE MAY: Did he have a band of men who looted?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. It's not true that he

16 looted. He fought a liberation struggle. These were people defending

17 their own hearths from Chetnik forces coming from Serbia.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. When the police came to arrest him, do you know that the police

20 did not shoot but asked them to come out and to surrender themselves, to

21 give themselves up to the police?

22 A. I don't know, but I'm glad that you are aware of this because it

23 shows that you knew everything that was going on there.

24 Q. I saw a report about it. And the witness that testified here

25 before you criticised the procedure undertaken by the police, that it only

1 gave two hours to Jashari and his band to surrender. Do you know about

2 that?

3 A. I've heard this for the first time today, because all the people

4 who were surrounded were executed in the most barbaric manner. Only a

5 small girl survived. They were also mutilated. Who could survive to tell

6 the tale?

7 Q. It's not true that only one small girl survived, because in those

8 two hours, during those two hours, a number of family members managed to

9 leave the house, and Jashari and his members, his band of men -- you refer

10 to them as a family, but of course there are other instances in the world

11 where bands are referred to as families, but anyway, Jashari and his band

12 opened fire on the police force from heavy machine-guns and automatic

13 weapons. Several tens of automatic weapons were used to fire on the

14 police. Do you know about that?

15 JUDGE MAY: There were two questions there, two questions. The

16 first question is: Do you know if any family members managed to leave the

17 house?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that anybody got out.

19 Everybody was executed except for this girl who survived and is still

20 among us today.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. You can take a look at the report about the event, but it is

23 correct not only that they managed to leave but the police appealed to

24 everybody to come outside, to leave the house and to give themselves up to

25 the police.

1 Now, do you know that he, that is to say, he killed a nephew from

2 behind, in the back, because he wanted to surrender to the police and he

3 thought that this was being -- that he was being a traitor and therefore

4 shot him in the back, the son of his uncle?

5 A. This is not true, because you executed the entire Jashari family

6 apart from this small girl who survived by chance. This is a fiction of

7 your imagination. And you were involved in this event yourself.

8 Q. We are not contesting the fact that Jashari was killed in the

9 clash with the police. That is not being put into question. But

10 obviously from what you're saying, another thing is not being put into

11 question and that is that he didn't want to be arrested but he fired, he

12 shot, together with all the members of his band of men or bandits. Do you

13 think that the policemen should have killed -- kamikaze policemen, for

14 Jashari to kill them first and then --

15 JUDGE MAY: This is enough. It is not disputed that shots were

16 fired. The question is how and in what circumstances.

17 Mr. Milosevic, how do you suggest - so the witness can deal with

18 it - that the 60 members of the family came to die? Is it suggested that

19 they were killed in gunfire, in exchange of gunfire? Is that the

20 suggestion?

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Of course. It's common knowledge, a

22 generally known fact. You don't know what the house looks like. And I

23 read the report.

24 JUDGE MAY: Very well. It's -- just -- let the witness deal with

25 the suggestion.

1 The suggestion is that this family were killed, 60, in an exchange

2 of fire or the like. Yes. What do you say about that?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't deny that Adem Jashari was a

4 member of the KLA. However, Adem Jashari's family were killed. They were

5 executed by the Serbs, including girls, children. I saw mutilated

6 children with my own eyes. How can this be excused, killing women, two

7 elderly men in the family, almost 80 years old? They were -- according to

8 Milosevic, they were on some barricade.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. They weren't at a barricade but in a reinforced house, and you

11 yourself said that from that house they shot at the police.

12 A. They were in their own house. They were asleep when they were

13 surrounded by the Serbian police and army. They were asleep when you

14 surrounded them.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Kadriu, what's the source of your information

16 about this incident?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it was early in the

18 morning when Adem Jashari's family was surrounded. Not only the family

19 but the whole neighbourhood in Prekazi i Poshtem.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: But you were not there.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And then they were executed. No, I

22 wasn't there, but we saw from a distance, perhaps a few kilometres away,

23 but I know that there were three rings of encirclement. It was true that

24 we couldn't go there.

25 JUDGE MAY: But you told us you saw the bodies. Is that right?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's true.

2 JUDGE MAY: But what sort of age were the bodies that you saw?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were all of all ages, Your

4 Honour. I saw the corpses when the police had taken them to a warehouse

5 of building materials while the house of the Jashari family in Prekaz was

6 still surrounded.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you actually witness how they were killed?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. How they were killed? No. But

9 I saw the corpses. They were burned, mutilated, and they had been

10 executed by gunshots.

11 JUDGE KWON: Did you go with Mr. Barani there?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I went with several human

13 rights representatives from Vushtrri, and there I met Mr. Barani, who was

14 filming, and the representatives of the Human Rights Council from

15 Skenderaj.

16 JUDGE KWON: Okay.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. You just said a moment ago that you were two or three kilometres

19 away, watching the event. How long did you watch it go on for?

20 A. I went there several times, because this went on. And I had to go

21 back to -- to return to Vushtrri to report what I had seen with my own

22 eyes. I saw smoke. There were gunshots, anti-aircraft artillery firing.

23 For three days on end, they were subjected to Serbian artillery fire in

24 the Jashari family.

25 Q. You say three days?

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1 A. It seems to me it was three days. You kept the house surrounded

2 even later. Even later, it was kept besieged. There were victims who

3 were drawn -- who were pulled out of the ruins, out of the ruins of burned

4 houses, and they still haven't been identified to this day these members

5 of the Jashari family.

6 Q. So according to your testimony just now, the police surrounded the

7 house and for three days fought with a fortified -- with the fortified

8 forces of Jashari, is that it? And there were a lot of policemen, as you

9 yourself said. How large should the forces be, then, that were shooting

10 at the police if the police needed three days to overcome them? How large

11 were those forces, then?

12 A. No. They were executed on the first day, but you kept the house

13 under siege because you had to prepare the minutes of what happened, which

14 you then presented to the media. You kept the house encircled for certain

15 purposes so that when you presented it to the international opinion, you

16 had a version for that, a false version of that.

17 Q. And in your opinion, how long did this fighting go on between the

18 Jashari group and the police? How long?

19 A. I don't know. I can't say for sure how long it lasted, but I know

20 that they were attacked early morning, and people were killed also early

21 morning. But you kept the house under siege. All the neighbourhood, in

22 fact, preventing anyone from going near until you took the corpses to this

23 construction materials warehouse in the vicinity of the Skenderaj.

24 Q. All right. This is quite clear. Your position is quite clear in

25 that respect, and you yourself were not able to deny the existence of

1 fighting between the police and this group of bandits of his.

2 You said that after these events --

3 A. There was not any group of bandits. Excuse me, Your Honours.

4 There wasn't any group of bandits.

5 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We have the evidence on this matter.

6 Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Ask your next question.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If you switch my microphone on

8 again. Ah, it's switched on. Yes.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Well, usually everywhere in the world a group fighting against the

11 police force is referred to as a group of bandits, probably just not

12 here.

13 You said that the inhabitants were escaping, were fleeing to

14 Vucitrn, and that they were fleeing from the terror. Do you mean that

15 they were fleeing from the police terror or were they fleeing from the

16 area where there was shooting going on, like in this particular incident

17 that we have just been referring to a moment ago ad infinitum until we

18 reach some truths?

19 A. How couldn't people resist from fleeing when your army and police

20 began to shell their houses? And before doing that, they -- along with

21 shelling their houses, they started to evict the inhabitants forcibly,

22 then to set fire to their houses and deport them from -- away from

23 Vushtrri towards Macedonia and Albania. That was the underlying

24 philosophy of your army and police.

25 Q. It's a good thing that you're a philosopher, but I'd like to

1 remain with material facts.

2 A. I am not a philosopher. I never studied philosophy.

3 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we do not need these comments. Would

4 you kindly refrain from them. Now, next question.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. I'm going to read out a passage, and it is the following. As you

7 are talking about expulsion in 1998, I'm going to read you the following.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, to be fair, you must say where

9 this passage comes from. Give us the context.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I will say that once

11 he answers my question. I will reveal it straight away. But I don't want

12 to tell him in advance where the passage comes from. I want to ask him

13 the question first, to ask him about it - I assume that's my right - and

14 then I'll disclose the source later on. He claimed that it was not true

15 that I told him in advance that the official congress testimony of the

16 Federal Investigation Bureau of the American Congress, he probably said

17 that -- would probably say that that was not true either, that it was a

18 fiction of my imagination, had I not quoted it to him. This is the

19 passage. I'm not going to hide the source. Of course not.

20 [In English] [As read] "Explicit political persecution linked to

21 Albania ethnicity is not verifiable. The east of Kosovo is still not

22 involved in armed conflict. Public life in cities like Pristina,

23 Urosevac, Gnjilane, et cetera, has in the entire conflict period continued

24 on a relatively normal basis. The actions of the security forces not

25 directed against the Kosovar Albanians as an ethnically defined group but

1 against the military opponent and its actual or alleged supporters."

2 Q. [Interpretation] In your opinion; is that correct or not?

3 A. I don't know what they have written there, but I do know that your

4 army and police killed about 15.000 civilian people, Mr. Milosevic. I

5 don't know who wrote that report.

6 Q. I'm not asking you about your fabricated interpretations. What

7 I'm asking you: Is what I have read out correct or not? Yes or no,

8 please.

9 A. No, that's not true. Your police and army drove people out and

10 deported them with violence, and killed them in so doing, and then

11 collected them in cities as of the 1st of April. It drove them away from

12 these cities too, forcibly. Some it killed, some it evicted forcibly to

13 Macedonia and to Albania. That is the truth. One million people were

14 deported to Macedonia, Albania, and other European countries. You did

15 ethnic cleansing of Kosova. This is what you did.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I should like to request

17 that my questions be answered, because we're wasting valuable time, which

18 I will be short of. I don't mind how long the witness is going to answer,

19 but I do mind that he is being repetitious. He is repeating and repeating

20 like a parrot the same thing, that it is the Serbs who are the criminals.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Now, what I read out, in your opinion --

23 JUDGE MAY: There's no point going over that. He's effectively

24 denied it.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. All right, then. This is an intelligence report from the foreign

2 office, January 12th, 1999, [In English] Court of Trier, [Interpretation]

3 to the administrative court of Trier. And I'm going to read you another

4 passage:

5 [In English] "As laid out in the previous status report, the KLA

6 has resumed its position after the partial withdrawal of the security

7 forces in October 1998, so it once again controls broad areas in the zone

8 of conflict. Before the beginning of spring 1999, there were still

9 clashes between the KLA and security forces, although this has not until

10 now reached the intensity of the battles of spring and summer 1998."

11 [Interpretation] Is that true?

12 A. Regarding the expansion of KLA, you might wish to call the KLA

13 commander. I am here to testify to the atrocities perpetrated by your

14 army and police.

15 Q. All right. This is once again a report [In English] March 15,

16 1999, to administrative court Mainz. [Interpretation] I'll skip this,

17 because you say you are not a KLA commander.

18 As you spoke about the Kosovo Verification Commission of the OSCE,

19 do you know that there was a commission of the federal government for

20 cooperation with this Verification Mission and that all the incidents that

21 occurred in the space of those several months while the Verification

22 Mission was on site, that minutes were kept between the federal government

23 of Yugoslavia and the Verification Commission, that is to say, the

24 government body for cooperation with the Verification Mission, that

25 minutes existed? Do you know that? Do you know that that kind of

1 assertation of the incidents and the minutes made by the Verification

2 Commission and the federal government commission, that a report was

3 written in connection with each of the incidents that took place? Do you

4 know that?

5 A. I don't know that there is, but if there is, I don't have any

6 information from the OSCE about that. Of course, its work was to draft a

7 report on the situation that prevailed then, when it was in Kosova as well

8 as in our municipality.

9 Q. Yes, but do you know that -- what you say during your testimony,

10 there is practically nothing -- nothing is contained of that in the

11 reports, or rather, the minutes that were compiled between the

12 Verification Mission of the OSCE and the representatives of the commission

13 of the federal government for cooperation with this commission in Kosovo

14 and Metohija?

15 JUDGE MAY: The witness says he knows nothing about these minutes,

16 so any questions along these lines is purely a matter of comment. The

17 witness cannot help us. He's given his evidence and that's all he can

18 do.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I'll have to sift

20 through my questions and cut down on them, because the witness doesn't

21 know anything about this, as you say. But I should like to draw your

22 attention to the very clear contradictions that occurred at different

23 points during the witness's testimony. First of all, he spoke about the

24 stationing of the KLA in the area of Cicavica and the activities, but on

25 the other side now, of the police and army in the Cicavica area, which is

1 undoubtedly a conflict between the KLA and the army.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, this is not the occasion for you

3 to make those comments. You will have an opportunity at the end of the

4 case to address us on contradictions. You must put questions to the

5 witness.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I assume that by asking these

7 questions, all these inconsistencies are being established. I do not have

8 the opportunity or possibility to make a record of all the

9 inconsistencies, because these are sheer, unadulterated lies here, and

10 cooperation with this false indictment and the witnesses that that

11 indictment brings forward. Because the question arises is: Who is doing

12 the killing in Kosovo now, when there are no Serbs there?

13 JUDGE MAY: Just put a question. No more speeches.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Well, as you're not going to let

15 me explain this, let me ask the question.

16 Q. Who is doing the killing in Kosovo now when there's no Serb army

17 or police force there? Who is doing the killing in Kosovo now?

18 JUDGE MAY: There's no relevance that the Tribunal can see in that

19 question.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. All right. Let us go back to Vucitrn. I want to know, because he

22 deals in human rights, whether he knows that after UNMIK and KFOR arrived,

23 precisely in his municipality, the municipality of Vucitrn, 27 Serbs were

24 killed. Does he know about that?

25 A. It's not true that there are no Serbs in Vushtrri municipality.

1 There are three villages mainly inhabited by Serbs.

2 As to the killings Milosevic is referring to, I don't know that,

3 because that is the responsibility of UNMIK to control the situation and

4 to take records of what is happening. I am a professor at the secondary

5 school and I am no longer president of the Council for Human Rights and

6 Freedoms. There is someone else who is in that position now.

7 Q. This did not happen now; it happened when KFOR and UNMIK came, and

8 at that time you were chairman of the council.

9 Do you know that on the 18th of May of 1999, where there is a

10 forest by the village of Buzh [phoen], that the KLA killed six Serbs on a

11 tractor who went out to the forest to cut wood: Slobodan Brajkovic, the

12 father of three children; Slavujko Miletic, father of three children;

13 Predrag Zdravkovic, father of three children; Slavisa Zdravkovic, a young

14 man; Milovan Zdravkovic, father of four children; and Svetislav Zivkovic?

15 Are you aware of this? Are you aware of the killing of these people who

16 were going to the forest to cut wood? They were in a tractor.

17 A. On the 18th of May, I was in prison, in the prison of your army

18 and police. They took me to prison. How could I know that?

19 Q. How could you know about all sorts of events that you testified

20 about here and that you said that you had heard about, that they told you

21 about them, that you coordinated work in this area, et cetera, in the very

22 same way, therefore?

23 A. I told you: At that time I was not -- I was in prison, and we

24 couldn't get hold of any information there. We were cut off from the rest

25 of the world, rounded by your forces. We didn't have access to any

1 information, any newspapers, so how could I know that, in prison? I

2 didn't know of what happened to my family until after the war.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: And you didn't hear about that, Mr. Kadriu, after

4 you came out of prison?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 18th of May, the date the

6 accused has mentioned, I hadn't heard of anything happened on that day,

7 and I'm sure nothing happened on the 18th of May. I know that when the

8 OSCE was at Mijalic, when they were still present in the town, someone

9 from this village who was in the Yugoslav army committed an act of

10 sabotage and fled.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Mr. Milosevic, next question.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to make an effort. I'm going

13 to digress now, because I see that you keep restricting my time, and I

14 have to go back to these documents as well.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. You brought here a considerable number of documents. Before I

17 move on to these documents, I would like to ask you something. As far as

18 I could notice here, at least six times during your testimony you said

19 that your documents burned. So these documents of yours that did not burn

20 are quite worthless. We will establish that. And it so turns out that

21 only documents that pertain to certain crimes burned. And now documents

22 that relate to potatoes and things like that did not burn down, and on the

23 other hand, documents relating to crimes did burn down. How could these

24 documents be separated in this way? You refer to this at least six times,

25 that all your documents burned down except for the documents relating to

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13 English transcripts.

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1 potatoes, purchases of cars, et cetera.

2 JUDGE MAY: What is the question?

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. The question is: How come these documents that are worthless he

5 did manage to salvage and the documents that he had relating to crimes and

6 that he mentioned --

7 JUDGE MAY: Very well. The question is: It's suggested that your

8 other documents were burnt but you managed to salvage these ones. Now,

9 can you give us your evidence about that?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the technical secretary

11 of the Council of Human Rights and Freedoms concealed the overwhelming

12 majority of the council's documents in a house that was later burned. I

13 can also give you the name of the secretary of the council, while these

14 documents which Milosevic is trying to cover up were taken from the office

15 of the municipality where the Serbian administration worked. They were

16 taken after the war. There were very few documents that survived. There

17 were some that were in copies that a colleague had but very few.

18 And I would be very happy if I had all these documents at my

19 disposal that I had before the war because they would help me a lot. It's

20 my misfortune here that I don't have these documents, but the Council for

21 Human Rights and Freedoms has the time scale of all the acts of violence,

22 and I brought a copy here.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Well, I would like to ask you about these documents, because the

25 Prosecutor has presented them so pompously here, worthless documents, and

1 he cannot make up for their value.

2 What do you prove by a list of members of the Crisis Staff of the

3 municipality of Vucitrn when there is a crisis and when there has to be a

4 Crisis Staff of the municipality of Vucitrn? What do you prove with a

5 list of the members of the Crisis Staff? By the way, I see up here in the

6 heading --

7 JUDGE MAY: That's not a question for the witness. He simply

8 produced the document.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, he brought it with some

10 intention, some purpose. I'm asking you what he's trying to prove with

11 this document. That a Crisis Staff exists? It exists in every

12 municipality.

13 JUDGE MAY: Very well. It's not a matter for the witness to deal

14 with it. Now what is the next question?

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Does he know that this staff was organised for the Civil Defence,

17 for evacuation, for taking care of the population, for providing food

18 supplies, water, electricity, public goods, for taking care of the

19 livestock that was killed, that all of that is the duty of the Crisis

20 Staff? Do you know about that?

21 A. No. The Crisis Staff which was formed in 1998 was called a Staff

22 for Police and Military and Civilian Issues. I also have other documents,

23 and if the Court requires, I can show you that this is what it said. It

24 was formed in order to replace all the other authorities that had

25 previously existed and created a state of emergency. It was responsible

1 for everything, even for the potatoes that Milosevic mentioned.

2 Meanwhile, we know what it did to a civilian population where people are

3 concerned.

4 This Crisis Staff is responsible for everything. It was a supreme

5 body which had direct contacts with the top of the pyramid where the

6 accused was. In the Crisis Staff, there were -- there was also the police

7 chief, Vucina Jacnicevic [phoen], who is a member of the Crisis Staff and

8 the former chairman of the municipality; Slobodan Doknic and others who

9 took responsible for the tiniest things, not to mention the main issues.

10 If you want other documents, I have them here in my bag and I can

11 give them to you, where you see written "Staff for Military, Civilian, and

12 Police Affairs."

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Kadriu, among the many things that you said,

14 there is one that interests me in particular, that the Crisis Staff had

15 contact with the top of the pyramid where the accused was. Would you like

16 to clarify that? Very briefly.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Yes, Your

18 Honour. In 1998, there was a Municipal Assembly composed mainly of

19 Serbs. From June 1998, this Municipal Assembly was turned into a Crisis

20 Staff for military, police, civilian, and humanitarian affairs. All the

21 Municipal Assembly's responsibilities were taken over, and these

22 responsibilities were passed to this staff which was for military, police,

23 and civilian affairs.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Mr. Milosevic.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Let it be quite clear. It is correct that the Municipal Assembly

2 did not work properly. It is true that they did not work properly because

3 of well-known squabbling amongst the Serbs themselves and that this is why

4 this council was appointed. And this temporary, provisional council

5 appointed the Crisis Staff precisely for the protection of civilians and

6 precisely because of the issues that I refer to. That is why these

7 documents are totally worthless from the point of view of what he's trying

8 to prove.

9 Please. This is a question I'm putting now: The list of

10 certificates for persons that were engaged in the Territorial Defence of

11 Vucitrn, and then there is the name and surname and then the time period

12 in which people were engaged, for one month, from the 25th of March until

13 the 25th of April. That is to say, people who were engaged to transport

14 food supplies, different materials in their own vehicles. This is

15 mobilisation by the Crisis Staff. What is being proved by this?

16 JUDGE MAY: What is being proved is what -- what -- what is being

17 proved is what the document states. What the weight to be attached to it

18 or its importance is a matter for the Trial Chamber in due course. The

19