1 Wednesday, 6 March 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

7 WITNESS: QAMIL SHABANI [Resumed]

8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

10 Q. According to the information that I have, the village of Zegra was

11 a rather highly developed village. There was a factory there, Jugoterm,

12 where Serbs and Albanians worked, and also the agricultural combine

13 Mladost, and there were paved roads, and there was electricity, running

14 water, et cetera.

15 JUDGE MAY: Is that correct?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Partly true.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Zegra was never bombed or shelled by the army and police; is that

19 correct?

20 A. This is not accurate because the police and the army, the Serb

21 police and army, have burned down the village of Zheger. But what the

22 accused said is not true.

23 Q. And what about later? Was it NATO first and then the KLA that

24 shelled and bombed the village of Budrike, six kilometres away from Zegra

25 on the road to Gnjilane? Is that correct?

1 A. As regards the village of Budrike, there was no KLA forces there.

2 The village is inhabited entirely by the Serbs, and the bombing, the NATO

3 bombing, was carried out in those areas where the Serb forces were

4 deployed.

5 Q. So that is correct.

6 A. I said that it's -- it's not true. It's partly not true because

7 there was no KLA shelling of the Budrike village.

8 Q. All right. At the medical centre in Gnjilane, there were 370

9 Albanian employees; is that correct?

10 A. In the medical centre of the hospital of Gjilan, before the NATO

11 bombing, there were also Albanian doctors. But after the beginning of the

12 NATO bombing, the Albanian personnel left the hospital, and that was under

13 the orders of the Serb officials who were in charge there.

14 Q. Is it correct that there were 370 Albanian employees at the

15 medical centre in Gnjilane?

16 A. That was the situation before the war. Yes, there were.

17 Q. And they left on orders given by the KLA; right?

18 A. No. That is not true.

19 Q. Just give a yes or no answer.

20 A. I -- I am saying no.

21 Q. All right. Also, the technical school in Gnjilane was attended by

22 405 Albanians; is that correct?

23 A. Which school are we talking about? The technical school? The

24 schools in general were segregated.

25 Q. I said it quite clearly: the technical school.

1 A. As far as the technical school is concerned, there were no

2 Albanians there, because there was segregation in the school. The Serbs

3 were studying separately from the Albanians since 1990, when the Kosovo

4 autonomy -- when Kosovo was stripped of its autonomy.

5 Q. What was the difference between the education of the Serbs and the

6 education of the Albanians, except for language?

7 A. There were some curricula and programmes which the Albanians did

8 not accept. They were from the Serbo-Slav Federation. But we had our own

9 national programmes, and hence the differences in history, language,

10 music, but also in the exact sciences. But they are of a different

11 nature, in fact.

12 Q. And what was the difference as far as natural sciences were

13 concerned?

14 A. The difference can be explained by the competent people who have

15 drafted those programmes. I do not know the difference between the

16 Albanian and the Serbian programmes, but we have been working on the basis

17 of the Albanian programmes.

18 Q. For Albanian children, schooling was in the Albanian language, and

19 for Serb children, in the Serb language; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, that's correct, but the school programmes were different.

21 Lessons for the Albanian students was taking place in the

22 houses-turned-schools, whereas the Serbs were studying in the school

23 premises, and the same thing took place from the elementary schools to the

24 university level.

25 Q. I asked you whether schooling was in Albanian for Albanians and in

1 Serbian for the Serbs. Yes or no.

2 A. I told you that was the case, but I also explained that the

3 teaching was segregated, and that was being organised on the basis of

4 different programmes.

5 Q. Teaching was separate in terms of language; yes or no.

6 JUDGE MAY: He's dealt twice with that. He said that schooling

7 was in the different languages. I think we could move on now,

8 Mr. Milosevic, from that.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. All right. You did not answer my question whether it is correct

11 that 405 Albanians attended the technical school. Yes or no.

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Shabani, if you don't know, just say so.

13 A. As regards this one, I don't know. And the school that the

14 accused is talking about did not exist. This is something that maybe the

15 accused is imagining.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. The economic school -- the economic school, the school of

18 economics, was attended by 952 Albanians, and that was in 1999, at that.

19 Is that correct or not?

20 A. The economic school -- I said earlier that all the schools, the

21 economic included, were segregated, and the Albanians were conducting

22 teaching on the basis of the special Albanian programmes, which were

23 different from those of the Serb system, educational system.

24 Q. Since you're a teacher, you know full well that when a teacher

25 enters a classroom, he teaches whatever he wishes to teach. I'm not

1 asking about the programme, the curriculum; I'm just asking you whether it

2 is true that 952 Albanians were attending the economic school in 1999.

3 Yes or no.

4 A. I've already talked about these elements. I've nothing else to

5 say on that.

6 Q. You talked about the technical school. You did not talk about the

7 economic school.

8 A. I talked about the technical school, and I said that the technical

9 school, the economic school, and all the schools in the Gjilan area, they

10 were segregated because the system operated on a different basis from that

11 of the Serb educational system, and it operated on the basis of programmes

12 that were designed, that were drafted by the institutions of the Kosova

13 republic.

14 Q. It is not being contested whether Serbs studied in Serbian and

15 Albanians in Albanian. Of course that was separate. I'm saying, did they

16 go to school? You are not answering that question. And I claim that --

17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, he has answered that. He said that

18 they did. Now, let's move on to another topic, please.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. In Zegra itself there were 758 students, Albanians, 79 Serb

21 students, pupils; is that correct?

22 A. I did not quite understand the question.

23 Q. In Zegra, in your village, there were 758 pupils, 79 Serb pupils.

24 Is that correct?

25 A. This is not true.

1 Q. How many Albanian pupils were there at the school in Zegra?

2 A. The number of the Albanian -- the number of students in the Zheger

3 school was about 900, and as for the Serb students, they were a small

4 number, about 30, 20 to 30, because the Serbian population in the village

5 was very small. There were a few kids there. The number of Serb students

6 between the first and the fourth grade of the elementary schools was

7 small, and they took part in combined classes. So there were students who

8 were -- teachers who were conducting teaching of students in two levels.

9 Q. Seven hundred fifty-eight students plus 79 students gives a total

10 of about 900, as you have just said.

11 JUDGE MAY: He's given his answer.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. So they went to school, not to private houses.

14 A. The teaching in the elementary school of Zheger was taking place

15 in the school premises, but the teaching was taking place on the basis of

16 programmes that were drafted by Kosova, by the Republic of Kosova, and

17 they were national programmes and not programmes designed by the Ministry

18 of Education in Serbia.

19 Q. I'm not asking you about the programme. I'm asking you -- I'm

20 saying that they went to a state school, not to a private house.

21 A. I said that a state school is the one which is protected by the

22 state and when it's been used by Albanian students, but they were using

23 quite different programmes, different from those of the state, and this is

24 not the same.

25 Q. All right. They went to a state school; yes or no.

1 A. No.

2 JUDGE MAY: He's given his answer and qualifications.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Do you remember your fellow citizens, Blerim Hyseni, the police

6 took two pistols away from him?

7 A. I can't remember when and if that happened. I can't remember

8 that.

9 Q. Do you remember Jahija Bislimi? He was employed at the Municipal

10 Assembly of Gnjilane and a rifle was taken away from him.

11 A. I don't understand who we are talking about. Jamija, Jahija, it

12 does not exist in Albanian.

13 Q. It is not Jahija, it is Jahi Bislimi. He was an employee of the

14 Municipal Assembly of Gnjilane and a rifle was taken away from him.

15 A. I don't know a person with this name and surname in the village.

16 Q. And do you remember Esad Bidaku? An automatic rifle was also

17 taken away from him. He's also from your village.

18 A. This name too, Esad Bidaku, does not exist in my village.

19 Q. What about Mehdi Musliu? Does a person by that name exist in your

20 village?

21 A. Mehdi Musliu? With this particular name -- a person with this

22 particular name that you mentioned does not exist. I don't know.

23 Q. All right. What about -- I mean, since you don't know any one of

24 these villagers of yours, what about your brother, Shaban Shabani? Did

25 you have a brother called Shaban Shabani?

1 A. Yes, that's true. He died in 1993.

2 Q. All right. Is it correct that your brother, your older brother,

3 Shaban Shabani, before the bombing, as a member of the KLA, went to

4 Albania and got killed as he was crossing the border from Albania, as he

5 was returning with his group; he was killed in a clash with the army of

6 Yugoslavia during the month of April?

7 A. This is not true. About this case, I want to give my explanation

8 to the Court and show what the reality is.

9 Your Honours, my brother, Shaban Shabani, was a retired man. He

10 retired as an invalid because he was suffering from heart disease. But

11 when in Albania there was democratic change, he went there to recover from

12 his illness. After he went to Albania, he died from a heart attack in

13 Dures. Together with my brothers Refik Shabani and Ibrahim Shabani, we

14 went to collect the corpse, the body of my brother, in Albania, and we did

15 not have permission from the Serb Ministry of Interior. That's why we got

16 across the border. And I want to tell you that what the accused is saying

17 is not true.

18 JUDGE MAY: Would you repeat again when it was your brother died.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1993.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. All right. When the war broke out, that is to say, on the eve of

22 the 24th of March, you were principal of secondary education in Zegra; is

23 that correct?

24 A. No, I was not the principal of the secondary school in Zheger.

25 Q. I didn't say secondary school; I said secondary education, this

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 secondary education that you organised, and you appointed people as to who

2 would teach what, et cetera.

3 A. No, I wasn't the person who appointed teachers either. That's not

4 true.

5 Q. Since you said that it is not correct that your brother was killed

6 as he was crossing the border, do you know about Agim Ramadani, a former

7 officer of the JNA who was killed as he was crossing the border at Kosare,

8 and he was buried in Zegra a few days later? You spoke on the anniversary

9 of his death, and this was attended by Hasim Thaci, because he was one of

10 the terrorists of his. Is that correct or not?

11 A. As far as Agim Ramadani is concerned, it's true that he took part

12 in the battle of Koshare, and he was the commander of one of the units in

13 Koshare, and he was killed on the 11th of April, 1993 in Koshare. As far

14 as Hasim Thaci being in Gjilan on the occasion of the solemn meeting

15 organised, this is not true.

16 Q. Did you speak at this anniversary of Agim Ramadani's death?

17 A. No, I did not speak. There were others who did.

18 Q. All right. I'm just asking you. You just say yes or no. Let us

19 save time. Before the NATO aggression in the second half of 1998 and in

20 1999, you made lists of all Albanians from Zegra who were of age so that

21 they could join the KLA; yes or no.

22 A. No, we didn't do such a thing.

23 Q. Do you know anything about the mobilisation that was proclaimed by

24 the KLA in March 1999?

25 A. Regarding the mobilisation, I have heard through the radio and

1 television nothing more about that.

2 Q. And are you aware that in Zegra, in the village of Lashtica, in

3 the immediate vicinity, the police seized 150 automatic rifles, 80 short

4 guns, Scorpions, pistols, Hecklers, 7 sniper rifles, and that there were 7

5 sniper positions in the territory of Zegra? Do you know about all of

6 this?

7 A. These are not true. The police, before the war, beginning from

8 1999 onwards - sorry - beginning from 1990 onwards, it has always taken

9 retaliation actions in our village and has always accused our inhabitants

10 of possessing illegal arms. They have maltreated people. There are two

11 people who have been mistreated, and both of them died. I might give you

12 the names. Mehmet Hajrullah and Salih Isufetahu, who died as a result of

13 that. Mehmet Hajrullah, after he was released from the detention, he died

14 in his own home. The other one, Salih Isufetahu, he died after a month

15 after he was released and tortured by the Serb police. There are other

16 people there.

17 JUDGE MAY: No need to go, at this moment, into detail. If you

18 answer the question shortly, Mr. Shabani, we'll get on more quickly. The

19 Prosecution will have a chance to ask you some more questions at the end

20 if there is anything which needs clarifying.

21 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. So would you please give me a yes or no answer to the following

24 question: Do you know about the fact that these 150 automatic rifles were

25 taken away, and the others, the 80, the seven snipers and all the other

1 things that I enumerated, the 80 short guns, et cetera? Is that --

2 JUDGE MAY: He said it wasn't true. He said it wasn't true.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Is it true that after the 10th of June, when the French withdrew

6 from your area and the Americans took over in the territory, that 150

7 terrorists of the KLA arrived from Macedonia via the village of Stantici

8 on the Macedonian border in the middle of Zegra village and this same man,

9 Esad Bidaku, toured the KLA and you attended this ceremony? Is that true

10 or not?

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are getting interference from

12 the Albanian interpretation channel. We apologise.

13 A. No, that is not true. I'm not aware of these things. When I

14 arrived from Macedonia, it was on the 26th of June. Therefore, I am not

15 aware of all these things that you are enumerating here.

16 Q. I'm asking you here a yes or no answer, please. Yes or no.

17 A. I already said no, I am not aware of this.

18 Q. All right. What about the police station in Zegra? Sadih Sofi

19 worked there, a policeman, an Albanian. He lived in a state-owned

20 apartment with his wife and three children. The KLA stormed his

21 apartment, beat him up, raped his wife and beat up his children. Do you

22 know of that event?

23 A. I don't know that the personality Sofi, as you say, he was beaten

24 by the police. He was in the service of the Serbian police, but after

25 that, the police were no longer there. I know that he went to Gjilan, but

1 I don't know anything about his whereabouts after that, after he was -- if

2 he was beaten by the KLA or other things. I don't know anything.

3 Q. Let's move on to something you do know about. You said that the

4 forces of the Yugoslav army arrived in Zegra ten days before the bombing;

5 is that right?

6 A. That is true. About ten, 20 days ago they came.

7 Q. All right. Ten or 20 days. It doesn't matter. Yesterday you

8 said ten. If you're saying 20 now, I don't mind. It makes no difference

9 to me.

10 You said that they dug trenches, and then you explained that they

11 prepared to defend themselves against NATO. As you said that they arrived

12 and dug trenches and prepared to defend themselves from NATO - and those

13 were your words yesterday, you spoke those words - did you deduce from

14 that that there was a possible front line being set up there?

15 A. This was a matter for the Serbs to take positions the way they

16 thought they deemed better for them along the valley of Reke in Zheger

17 village. They took positions there. That was their own decision, to

18 defend themselves from NATO strikes, from land or airstrikes.

19 Q. Did you conclude that this was a possible front line, then?

20 A. I don't think that was a front line because they wanted to fight

21 with the KLA because there was no KLA there, but I think that was their

22 decision, to prepare themselves for an eventual outside intervention.

23 Q. Well, I'm talking about that intervention. So they were there to

24 defend themselves from this outside intervention, and then I assumed that

25 it was a sort of front line. Is that right? Possible front line?

1 JUDGE MAY: I think the witness has answered that as best he can,

2 Mr. Milosevic.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Did you want to get away from that front line and take refuge from

6 it?

7 A. We had our own homes. I don't think that it was a good thing to

8 have the front line in the village. The Albanian population of Zheger

9 village were displaced and killed and injured.

10 Q. All right. We'll come back to that. You spoke about that

11 yesterday. You said that when the bombing started, as you said, the Serb

12 forces became even more furious and wild. How did you come to that

13 conclusion that they became more furious and wild? Did they froth at the

14 mouth or what manner of -- what way did this wildness manifest itself?

15 A. The savagery was manifested in the way they treated the people,

16 which is they started to mistreat, to beat the people, to fire at the

17 roofs of the houses of Albanians, to insult the Albanians who passed by in

18 the streets or even to -- to do -- to commit many other such acts against

19 the Albanians.

20 Q. All right. Yesterday, throughout your testimony, you did not

21 demonstrate to us that anything happened to anybody. You said you

22 yourself went to Macedonia, and we'll get to that in just a moment. So

23 how did they manifest this behaviour of theirs? How did they go wild?

24 JUDGE MAY: He's just said that. He said in the way they treated

25 the people, et cetera.

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. You spoke about the event that took place on the 29th of March and

4 the arrival of some sort of paramilitary, and then you went on to say that

5 you had heard about that. The Prosecutor asked you what their uniform

6 looked like, and you said you didn't see anything. You said that your

7 house was a long way off. So, in fact, you yourself did not see them.

8 You just heard about them; is that right?

9 A. Yes, but there were other eyewitnesses whose houses were located

10 closer to the school and to those places where these forces took position,

11 these paramilitaries that I said.

12 Q. And what, according to you, is "paramilitary," Mr. Shabani? Could

13 you explain to us? What do you mean by "paramilitary"?

14 A. In my view, a paramilitary is an armed man who commits criminal

15 deeds on the basis of certain well-programmed objectives by certain people

16 with the sole purpose of defending the army or the police to make believe

17 that they are not involved in the murder of the citizens. This was a

18 common phenomenon in the Serbian army. This happened in the Bosnia war

19 and all the time. The paramilitaries were used to help displace the

20 population from their homes.

21 JUDGE MAY: We're now moving from the subject.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. How can you differentiate between the paramilitary and the army?

24 A. I can differentiate between them in the way they were dressed.

25 The paramilitary were -- used some handkerchiefs, and they took part in

1 murders and were more savage and prepared to commit murders at any

2 moment.

3 Q. As far as the readiness to commit murders, you said yourself here

4 that the Serb population was preparing to liquidate the Albanians, and you

5 were talking about the time at the beginning of the aggression. Were you

6 yourself liquidated? Did they liquidate you?

7 JUDGE MAY: Did you yourself suffer any beating or anything of

8 that sort?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I already told you that I myself did

10 not, but they fired at me when I was going away, when I was leaving, along

11 with the other civilian population.

12 Q. But they didn't hit you?

13 A. Fortunately, no. Fortunately, no.

14 Q. Did they hit anybody?

15 A. Yes, they did. They hit and injured other people who were in the

16 convoy. We have two cases, a male and a female, who were injured.

17 Q. So in the convoy, two people were wounded out of all that shooting

18 that went on.

19 Now, you said that they were preparing to liquidate you. What, in

20 your opinion, prevented them from liquidating you?

21 A. I don't know what aims they had at that moment, but I know that

22 they wanted to kill some and to deport the others. That was the main goal

23 of theirs. And this came true in the case of our village, I have to say.

24 Q. All right. How do you know that they were preparing to liquidate

25 you and then they didn't liquidate you? How do you know that?

1 A. We knew -- we heard this, that some Serbian citizens said that

2 they had prepared the lists of Albanians who had some authority in the

3 village of Zheger whom they wanted to liquidate, to do away with, and the

4 list was there in place, and it waited to be realised, which in fact it

5 did.

6 Q. That means you were liquidated, were you?

7 A. I was not --

8 JUDGE MAY: No need to answer that question. It's a comment.

9 Yes. Now, anything else, Mr. Milosevic?

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Of course I have something else,

11 yes.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. You said that you became afraid, that you were frightened of that

14 liquidation, and that you went out, that there were 1.200 people, and that

15 it was raining; is that right?

16 A. Yes, that's right. When murders, injuries, were committed, we

17 were scared and panicky and left our homes and took to the mountains.

18 Q. Well, as it was raining, you went back inside, into the house; is

19 that right?

20 A. On the next day, in the morning, because we spent the night

21 outside under the rain, all together, women and children.

22 Q. But the next day you returned, you went back, didn't you?

23 A. Yes. My house happened to be situated very close to Kushlevica

24 Hill, but other citizens whose houses were situated in the hinterland of

25 the village, they stayed at our own homes, fearing that the situation

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 might be repeated, so they stayed with us.

2 Q. You said that you fled after the killing and wounding. Who was

3 killed and wounded that you had to flee [as interpreted]?

4 A. I told you that the brother of Shyqeri Tahiri was killed. Their

5 aim was to liquidate Tahir Tahiri, his brother, the chairman of the LDK.

6 Then Nexharije Tahiri was also injured. She is a relative of Shyqeri

7 Tahiri and Tahir Tahiri. So their families and other families heard of

8 this, of what was happening. Other people who were beaten and traumatised

9 as a result of the mistreatment, they all were scared and they all took to

10 the hills of Kushlevica.

11 Q. And who killed Tahir Tahiri?

12 A. I don't know that. I think you may know better than me.

13 Q. You claim -- you're claiming here -- that is to say, you're

14 testifying here about everything that you heard about but didn't see, so

15 that's why I'm asking you. Who killed Tahir Tahiri, who you say was

16 killed?

17 JUDGE MAY: He's answered that he doesn't know.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Very well. You also said that the police killed Ukshin Ukshini

20 because he had lighted a candle; is that right?

21 A. They hit Ukshin Ukshini's house before the paramilitaries arrived

22 in the village, so this happened two or three days after the NATO

23 airstrikes began, by army soldiers who were deployed at the agriculture

24 cooperatives. They fired at his house when they saw a candle lit. They

25 saw the house of an Albanian who was in -- looked better than the others.

1 Q. And you consider that they shot because somebody had lighted a

2 candle?

3 A. I am saying what happened, and that the firing was -- took place

4 in this case because of a candle, of a lit candle.

5 Q. That's what you say, and when they heard your testimony, I was

6 given information that it was from the roof of that house that Ukshin

7 Ukshini had shot at the army, and it is correct that it took place two or

8 three days after the NATO aggression, and it is true that it took place

9 during the NATO attack, and it is true that he shot at the army, and it is

10 true that he died shooting at the army. Are you aware of that? Do you

11 have that knowledge?

12 A. No, I don't think that's true. It cannot be true what you are

13 saying.

14 Q. Well, it's probably true that people are shot for lighting

15 candles.

16 You said that he was shot at and then you said that the house was

17 shelled. Now you have to choose: Was the house shelled or was he shot

18 at? Which of the two is it?

19 A. What you are alleging here, that because of a candle, of a lit

20 candle, one cannot be shot at from a distance? I mean, that was something

21 that could be done by the Serbian army that was deployed there. His

22 murder, his killing, happened on the 30th of March, in the morning. At

23 9.30 was the moment when he, Ukshin Ukshini, and his wife were killed, and

24 they were killed by the Serbian forces, who struck terror also among the

25 other citizens and other families who happened to live nearby.

1 Q. Please, you said yesterday that his house was shelled. What I'm

2 asking you is: Did they shell his house or did they shoot at Ukshin

3 Ukshini and his people? You have to choose, because you said both these

4 things. So what was it? Which of the two?

5 A. In terms of time, we have -- everything happened over two days.

6 The firing happened before, two days before; the killing took place two

7 days after. That's why this may have been created.

8 JUDGE MAY: Can you just explain? What is being suggested is that

9 either Mr. Ukshini was shot or his house was shelled. It may be that

10 you're saying that both happened, but perhaps you could make it clear.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I'm going to explain this. I

12 said that when the NATO airstrikes began, that night his house was

13 shelled. Maybe they chose his house because they saw a candle lit,

14 because at that moment, nobody fired. Then his murder was committed two

15 days after, after these events that I said, after the shelling of his

16 house. This happened in the morning, not at night. At 9.30 in the

17 morning of the 30th of March. And I think that this is clear.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Did you see it happen?

20 A. I have heard this from other eyewitnesses who were close by him.

21 Q. All right. Once again, you don't know how he died, but you heard

22 about it. Very well.

23 You went off to Donja Stubla after that and took refuge in the

24 house of other Albanians and stayed there until the 4th of May; is that

25 right? Which means more than a month. You said that there were 20.000

1 people who had gathered together and that you then decided to go to

2 Macedonia. How come you speak about 600 people immediately after that?

3 How does 20.000 turn into 600 people?

4 A. I'm trying to explain this. There is a time interval. It is

5 about a month, in fact. If the number of the people that I mentioned,

6 about 20.000 citizens that I have stated, I have explained that they were

7 comprised of Albanian inhabitants of Zheger, Lladove, Nosale, Remnik,

8 Budrike e Eperme, Gjylikar, Mogille, and Kuteseve [phoen] villages. These

9 are all villages where Serbian forces were involved in killing, looting,

10 and raiding, burning the homes of Albanians, which forced them to leave.

11 I explained also that on the 15th of March -- sorry, of April, the village

12 of Gjylikar was stormed as a result of which there were six casualties.

13 Two houses were burned and four-- four of the -- four other victims were

14 buried at Stubell e Ulet, in a meadow.

15 Q. I'm not asking you to repeat your testimony of yesterday. What

16 I'm asking you is how 20.000 people turned into 600 people when you

17 started out.

18 JUDGE MAY: He said, in fact, in his evidence earlier that the

19 reason was that villagers from other villages came to find refuge there.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. And then?

23 JUDGE MAY: What's the question?

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. I don't understand. I'm trying to explain this to myself, and I'm

1 asking the witness, therefore, to explain to me how 20.000 persons - and

2 that is his claim, that that was the number of people who were there and

3 decided to go to Macedonia - how did they en route turn into 600 people

4 all at once? Where are the remaining 19.400?

5 JUDGE MAY: He says they came from other villages and it happened

6 over a period.

7 Now, is that right?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is right. During -- they

9 came over a long period of time when their villages were being, as I said,

10 looted and raided, and people were being killed by the Serbian forces.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. So they were coming and going, and you, the 20.000 of you who were

13 there includes all of those who came and went from that place and to the

14 place while you were there. Is that the way I should interpret your

15 explanation?

16 A. I don't understand the question.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Shabani, at what stage did the group amount

18 to 600?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the time over which that

20 happened was long, and the population of Zheger amounts to about 4.000,

21 and it has big families, and they -- other people came from other villages

22 around. The villages were attacked by the Serb forces, and they came to

23 find shelter on that plateau. The population came there, and they were

24 hungry, and they were in want of everything. The aim of the Serb forces

25 was to create a large crowd of people so that they could exercise a mass

1 deportation.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: How many actually --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Judge Robinson, please.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me repeat the question. Of the 20.000, how

5 many actually went to Macedonia?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that from the 15th of April

7 onwards, they were going in groups, and they were organised

8 spontaneously. And they left from the 15th of April. We have groups of

9 families who set out to flee the country. Every two to three days such

10 groups were formed, and the group I was part of -- there was another group

11 after the 4th of May where the son of my brother was. They also came

12 across Serb forces as they were going towards the border.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Thank you. We're getting away from the

14 matter now. I understand you to say that you -- they went in different

15 groups to Macedonia.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues]... continue.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. You said that you set out, when you decided to go to Macedonia,

20 that is to say, this group of yours of 600 persons, that you set out

21 during the night lest you be discovered; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, that's correct. And the rest of the groups who set off

23 towards Macedonia, set out towards Macedonia, they tried to exploit the

24 opportunity not to be in the sight of the Serb forces, but some of the

25 groups happened to come across those forces and suffer mistreatment at

1 their hands.

2 Q. So you made an effort to go to Macedonia to seek shelter, to get

3 away from that terrain, unnoticed by the army and police?

4 A. Of course all of us in the group did not like to be sighted and

5 come across Serbian forces, because we were aware of what would happen to

6 us.

7 Q. So that was the general opinion that prevailed in that group of

8 20.000 persons, to get into Macedonia unnoticed, not to be seen by the

9 army and the police; is that right?

10 JUDGE MAY: His evidence had been about the group which he was

11 with.

12 But was it -- what can be asked is this: Was it the general view

13 amongst the 20.000 or so who left for Macedonia that they should try and

14 get there unnoticed?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's true. All the people

16 tried not to be noticed by the Serbian army and paramilitaries because

17 they would suffer at their hands. They knew it. This was a symptom which

18 prevailed among the people who decided -- who were forced to flee. They

19 feared deportation.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think, gentlemen, that it is not

21 right to intervene in this way, because it could be seen quite clearly

22 from the statement made by this witness that there was no deportation.

23 They were fleeing from the battlefields, from the theatre of war. They

24 were even trying not to be noticed by those who were allegedly deporting

25 them. Therefore, this is a striking example -- contrary, that there is no

1 deportation.

2 JUDGE MAY: What is the question, Mr. Milosevic?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will go on with the questions,

4 don't you worry, but I'm just trying to draw your attention to this.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. You were saying that you were surrounded by the army and the

7 paramilitaries at a particular site when you were in the field, in a

8 field; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, we were surrounded. In the case of Rrushtaj, the group I was

10 part of was surrounded by such forces who were at that moment there.

11 Q. We've heard that. We've heard that yesterday. We heard that

12 yesterday. You explained that first the men were searched and then they

13 put you all together. All things considered, nothing happened to any one

14 of you, and then you proceeded. And then you were ordered to walk for one

15 kilometre. They told you to sit down. And then you said that the

16 commander - I noted that down - the commander with the military and

17 paramilitary forces came to you personally to talk to you, that he came to

18 talk to you, with the military and paramilitary forces and you on the

19 other side, to ask you why you had called NATO in. Please, what did you

20 answer him?

21 A. If you're asking for the answer I gave to the commander of the

22 Serb units, it was -- that was a conversation which took place under

23 duress, with guns -- machine-guns, barrels, directed at me, and they

24 standing very next to me, asking explanations why we left our homes and

25 what was the intention behind that, why did we ask NATO to come in.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 Q. You said that yesterday. Tell me, what did you answer him? He

2 asked you why you called NATO in. He actually had a conference with you.

3 He, with his paramilitaries and militaries, and you, among those thousands

4 of people in the field, you were conferring as to why you had asked NATO

5 to come in. So what did you answer him?

6 A. The answer I gave at that moment was that I did not personally

7 call NATO in, although the arrival of NATO was as a result of demand of

8 all the population of Kosova. But I was terrified by the Serb forces and

9 Serb soldiers who were there at that moment, and the paramilitaries, who

10 at every moment were ready to execute me if I said something else.

11 As to why we left our homes, I told them that our houses were

12 burned down. And they asked me who burned those houses. I knew that the

13 houses were burnt by the Serbs, by the Serb paramilitary, and the soldiers

14 together, and other people from the village who had been assigned specific

15 duties. Although I couldn't say this to him, that this was committed by

16 the Serbs, but I told them that the houses were burned, but I don't know

17 from whom. I don't know who burned our houses.

18 Then I heard humiliating comments about my nation and my people,

19 and I was being told that: You want to go to Macedonia and then to

20 Albania and then join the KLA. But I told them that that is not true,

21 because I'm leaving together with my family because my house has been

22 burned. And in similar conditions were the rest of the group I was part

23 of, but I was speaking on my behalf.

24 Q. Then, after that, as you had said, they let you go on and they

25 told you to go to Presevo; is that right?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Just say yes or no, please. I don't want to be deprived of more

3 of my time by Mr. May.

4 A. I said that we were ordered to go in the direction of Presheva,

5 but we didn't know what was waiting for us there, because there were other

6 Serb forces there. And on the way, we deviated from that direction, and

7 I've stated that earlier.

8 Q. We heard that yesterday. We heard that yesterday. As you know,

9 everybody -- perhaps those who are following this do not know this, but

10 Presevo is outside the territory of Kosovo. It is in Serbia. Presevo is

11 not in Macedonia. So you were directed to Presevo, but you managed to

12 sneak away, through certain paths that some people knew, and somehow

13 managed to get to the border; is that right?

14 A. Yes. We walked across some other paths and to the border. We did

15 not go to Presheva; that is correct.

16 Q. Yes. And over there you passed soldiers. Nobody touched you.

17 You said that yourself. You also said that in your written statement, and

18 you said that during your testimony. Nobody asked you for documents,

19 nobody took away your documents; is that right?

20 A. We were not stripped of our documents, but we were mistreated, and

21 the humiliating comments that we heard from them. Every moment they were

22 saying, "We will kill you." They were all obvious, all too obvious.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wish to draw your attention,

24 gentlemen, to the fact that the first witnesses said that they heard over

25 the radio and the media that the Serbs would take revenge on them, and

1 since that proved to be a notorious lie, because this was not the case,

2 and every knows that, now witnesses are saying that individuals personally

3 explained to them that they would take revenge on them. I think --

4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic -- Mr. Milosevic, I'm going to stop

5 you. This is not the time for comments. Have you any more questions,

6 please, for this witness?

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Please, the question was clear: You were not touched, you were

9 not asked for documents, your documents were not being taken away; is that

10 correct? Yes or no.

11 JUDGE MAY: That was his evidence, that the documents were not

12 removed and he wasn't asked for them. He hasn't said that.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In view of this fact, I would like

14 to draw your attention to it once again, because I think that everybody

15 should note that those who are testifying and who are crossing the

16 Albanian border --

17 JUDGE MAY: You can make the arguments in due course. The witness

18 is here simply to be examined. The Court will have seen that there's a

19 difference between what happened to this witness and what happened to

20 others. It will be a matter for us what conclusion to draw. And at the

21 end of the case you can comment, but at the moment, let's just stick to

22 questions.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. The question is why, therefore, those who crossed the Albanian

25 border say that their documents were taken away from them and those who

1 crossed the Macedonian or Montenegrin borders claim that their documents

2 were not taken away? Is it perhaps because the Macedonians and the

3 Montenegrins are not going to lie on their behalf?

4 JUDGE MAY: This is a pure matter of comment, Mr. Milosevic. It's

5 not a matter for this witness. He said his documents weren't taken;

6 that's all.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Were your documents or the documents of anyone in your group not

9 taken away?

10 A. No. At that moment, they did not take documents from us, but

11 other groups said that their documents were taken away.

12 Q. All right. We've already heard about this pattern. It's getting

13 to be boring and it's hearsay anyway.

14 In your written statement and later on, you said something to that

15 effect while you were being questioned here, you said that the army shot

16 at a person called Avni, that they killed him. As a matter of fact, you

17 said that they massacred him. And the truth is quite different. This

18 person was retarded. His father stated that they had left him behind,

19 tied up, because he was mentally retarded. The army found him dead and

20 brought him there, and that's when the authorities got this statement from

21 the father, that this is a young man who was mentally retarded, whom they

22 had tied up themselves so that he would not create problems for them. Do

23 you know about that?

24 A. Yes. I have heard about this case when I returned, that

25 Mr. Zenani was killed by Serbian civilians of the Zheger village who were

1 armed - those civilians were armed - and that the killing was carried out

2 on the 6th of July. And that was to intimidate the Albanian population

3 from returning to their homes, because they wanted to make it a fact for

4 the Albanians who were deported not to come back, and that was carried out

5 by the Serb forces, and that is how the population felt.

6 Q. You are saying that this was done on the 6th of July?

7 A. Not on the 6th of July, but the 6th of June. That was six days

8 before the NATO forces came there.

9 Q. Now I'm going to read out your written statement. You said now

10 that this was on the 6th of June. That is to say that you were not in

11 Zegra yet when this happened; is that right?

12 A. Yes. I was not in Zheger when it happened. I was in the village

13 of Sllupcane, in Macedonia. But I heard about this from the witnesses,

14 from the eyewitnesses.

15 Q. All right. All right. You were not in Zegra. Now I'm going to

16 read out to you what you said in your written statement about that

17 killing. This is what your written statement says, the one that you gave:

18 "A few days before the airstrikes began, a man from the village,

19 Avni - I don't know his last name - was going to his home, which was

20 behind my house, a bit further up on the hill. It was evening. Three or

21 four policemen whom I knew were in the field. They were about 400 metres

22 away from him. One of them was called Jova, but I don't know his last

23 name. Another one was called Dragan, but I don't know his last name

24 either. And I did not know the rest. The two I have named were from

25 Zegra. They were shooting from a distance at Avni, and then they walked

1 up and massacred his body, although I don't know why they did that. After

2 killing him, they mutilated the body and carried it away." And so on and

3 so forth, not to take up any more time by reading this.

4 So you wrote something that was completely to the contrary of what

5 you've said over here. My question is: Did you give statements only to

6 the investigator or did you give statements to some other persons as well

7 except for the investigator who put questions to you here in this regard?

8 Who else did you give statements to?

9 A. I've only given a statement to the investigators, but here I have

10 forgotten to mention the case about which I heard from Hysen Hyseni, who

11 was together with Avni Zenani. He said that Zenani mustn't go home

12 because he will be threatened by the Serb forces, but he did not heed the

13 advice and he went home to collect some stuff in his house, and there he

14 was shot at by armed people who were at a distance of about 500 metres

15 from the hill of Kushlevica. I said that as regards this actual case, I

16 wasn't there present but I was in Macedonia. But I wanted to say that

17 this was told to me by Hysen Hyseni, and the killing was carried out by

18 the Serb forces in the village of Zheger.

19 JUDGE MAY: We're now going to adjourn. It's half past ten.

20 Mr. Milosevic, have you got very much more for this witness?

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have a few more questions, a few

22 more questions, of course.

23 JUDGE MAY: Very well. You will conclude in 20 minutes, please,

24 after the break.

25 We'll adjourn now, 20 minutes' break.

1 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

5 JUDGE MAY: Microphone. Yes.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Have you heard of the name Halit Hyseni? He was from your

8 village. Halit Hyseni?

9 A. Halit Huseini?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. I have never heard of this name. Maybe it's not exactly written

12 or pronounced in this way. Maybe Halit Hyseni or something else. The

13 name is not familiar to me.

14 Q. All right. Do you know about an event when, on the 29th of March,

15 the army intervened in the yard of Halit Hyseni and that they shot at the

16 army from that yard, and then that four persons were arrested who were

17 armed, and they were taken to the military prison in Pristina. Do you

18 recall that event that took place on the 29th of March in your own

19 village?

20 A. These -- it's not true that this event has taken place. I know

21 nothing about it.

22 Q. All right. You say you don't know. Is it true that you, in 1988,

23 were a cashier of the KLA in Zegra, that you collected money from the

24 local population and that you were caught with money and lists and were

25 taken into custody and detained in the police station but the police

1 released you afterwards? Do you remember that?

2 A. I was a cashier of the financial service of Gjilan municipality

3 for Zheger village, and I collected the money to fund the education, the

4 primary and the secondary education. And regarding the interrogation at

5 the police station, that's true.

6 Q. So you were taken into custody and detained with the money and

7 lists on you.

8 A. Yes. I had all the documents on me.

9 Q. All right. You spoke about the area of Zegra and Donja Stubla,

10 which is where 300 KLA members came after the Americans had arrived, and

11 set fire to and razed all Serb houses to the ground. They set the church

12 on fire and destroyed the cemetery. Do you know about that event, when

13 they destroyed the Serb cemetery?

14 A. What you say about the KLA soldiers destroying the Serb cemetery,

15 that's not true. Maybe some extremists on their way to the village, when

16 they saw their own homes burned down, in sign of revenge, they may have

17 set fire also to the Serbs' houses.

18 Q. Is it true that the Serb houses were razed to the ground, and the

19 church too?

20 A. Yes, that's true.

21 Q. Do you claim that it wasn't done by the KLA?

22 A. No, it was not done by the KLA.

23 Q. Who did it, then?

24 A. I said, maybe some extremist elements in the village, people in

25 the village, in sign of revenge, when they saw their houses burned to the

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 ground.

2 Q. So you consider that the KLA is not a terrorist organisation and

3 is not an extremist organisation, as far as I am able to understand your

4 answer. Am I wrong in thinking that or not?

5 A. In my view, the KLA is not a terrorist organisation but an

6 organisation that stood up in defence of the people and fought the Serb

7 terror and atrocities perpetrated against the Albanian population of

8 Kosova.

9 Q. If they fought against Serb terror, why, then, did they kill so

10 many Albanians? What do you have to say about that? What is your

11 opinion?

12 A. If they have killed some Albanians who have been involved and

13 cooperated with the Serb forces, that is, traitors to the nation, they may

14 have done such a thing.

15 Q. So several hundred Albanians were traitors of the nation; is that

16 what you're saying?

17 A. Maybe tens [as interpreted] of Albanians who have cooperated with

18 the Serb Secret Service for the interests of Serbia and Yugoslavia, to the

19 detriment of the interests of the Kosova people.

20 Q. How, then, do you explain the fact that when they killed a doctor,

21 an Albanian who was not in a secret service but just working in the

22 general hospital, or they killed a forester who was an Albanian, or a

23 postman working for the state carrying around letters in the mail, or the

24 forester or a local Albanian who the Albanians themselves elected to keep

25 their village safe? Are they all traitors too?

1 A. I have no knowledge about what you are saying here. Maybe if you

2 could give me names and last names, I might be in a better position to

3 give my feedback.

4 Q. Well, I will quote some first and last names, although I have

5 enumerated many names so far, but I have names for you too. Do you happen

6 to know, at the beginning of the bombing, many Albanians went to Gnjilane

7 to stay with their relatives there, and during the bombing, they went to

8 visit their properties that were looked after by the Serbs? Do you know

9 about that?

10 A. No, I know nothing about that. During the time of the bombing,

11 when the Serb forces were in Zheger village, Albanian inhabitants of

12 Zheger who went to Gjilan, as you say, and visited their homes, I know

13 nothing about that.

14 Q. Do you know that a significant number of Albanians stayed on in

15 the village and that the Serbs helped them, being good neighbours? Do you

16 know anything about that?

17 A. I know only about people who were deported, and that no Albanians

18 remained in Zheger village when it was being torched from the 5th of April

19 and onwards. An old man, who was called Ramiz Seferi, Ramiz Seferi, an

20 old man and his wife who didn't leave the village even though the Serb

21 forces, military, paramilitaries, went to their home to mistreat them, but

22 they told them, "Better kill us here than make us leave our home," because

23 they were about in their 90s, and who, after liberation, he died because

24 of old age. He was willingly waiting for his death at his own home rather

25 than have to flee it.

1 Q. But nothing happened to him. Among those who stayed on was Ramish

2 Fazliu, from whose house, probably to thank the Serbs for looking after

3 him during the war, later, when the American KFOR arrived, shooting was

4 done on some young people: Momcilo Zivkovic - he was 20 years old - and a

5 medical student, Sasa Stanojevic. They were seriously wounded and managed

6 to come to a shop owned by a Serb, Jugoslav Mihajlovic, where they were

7 shot at again from Fazliu's house, who was otherwise a member of the KLA

8 and had worked in Switzerland for a long time. Zivkovic, the owner of the

9 shop, was seriously wounded and another man killed. Do you know about

10 that event?

11 A. I told you, I have no information about that. As regards this

12 case, I was -- this happened during the time I was in Macedonia, so I have

13 no knowledge about that.

14 Q. But they were treated afterwards with the Americans' bomb-filled

15 base, and later on in Skopje, but you knew nothing about that; is that

16 correct?

17 A. That's true. I know nothing about that.

18 Q. Kasim Isufi stayed on in the village and asked -- he asked the

19 Serbs to transport his family, and the Serbs helped him throughout. Do

20 you know about that other case?

21 A. Maybe Kosum. I know no Kasim. I know one by the name of Kosum

22 Isufi. Maybe you are talking about him.

23 Q. I said Kasum Jusufi. That's what I said.

24 A. No. Kosum is his name. I know no Kasum.

25 Q. Kosum Jusufi. All right, then. Jusufi. Did you hear about that

1 case?

2 A. What are you talking about? That he was -- he stayed on in the

3 village, a man of 90 years of age?

4 Q. No. First of all, I am looking at the transcript, and it says

5 that I asked about Kasim Isufi. I didn't ask about any Kasim Isufi. I

6 asked about Kasum Isufi. But let me repeat the question anyway.

7 In the village, Kasum Isufi stayed on. He remained there. And he

8 was asked -- he asked the Serbs to transport his sons from Gnjilane and

9 they helped him throughout the war. Do you know about that? I didn't

10 mention a rifle. I didn't mention any weapons at all.

11 A. I am not aware of this case.

12 Q. Do you know that in the house of Izet Haziri, they left a person

13 who was not able to move? He was a young man. He was locked up, and that

14 when he cried out for help, the Serbs came and helped him, and, together

15 with the police, they managed to transport him to the Gnjilane hospital,

16 where he remained for treatment. Do you know about that particular case?

17 A. I know nothing about the case you are talking here.

18 Q. What about Fatim Isufi, Fatim Isufi who was mentally retarded and

19 left alone in the village?

20 A. Fitim Isufi was not left alone in the village, because there was

21 also his father there. But when the Serb forces entered his house,

22 breaking down his door, the door of his house, his father was feeding the

23 cattle when he heard the noise and the shouts, and he was scared and he

24 stayed there in the cow shed and was waiting to see what was going to

25 happen.

1 Fitim Isufi woke up from his sleep - he was a mentally retarded

2 person - and at that moment he was shot by the Serbian forces. This was

3 testified to by his father Sukri Isufi [phoen]. That is, his father

4 didn't dare leave the cow shed and see what was happening to his son, I

5 mean to see his dead body, because he was afraid that he might have been

6 shot himself. This is what I know.

7 Q. It is true that he died. Is it true that he attacked the

8 policemen and the soldiers with an axe from behind the door and they

9 didn't know that he was -- they didn't know that he was mentally retarded

10 and that that was an unfortunate incident and that is the truth of it?

11 That's what happened. And his father, of course, did not want to see

12 that. He was in the barn.

13 A. No. It is not that he didn't want to see, but he didn't dare see

14 his dead body because he feared that he, too, would have been killed. Who

15 is that father that doesn't want -- doesn't wish to see the dead body of

16 his son or daughter?

17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, the time is practically finished that

18 we've allotted to you, but you can ask two or so more questions.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I didn't understand that you had set

20 a time limit. I have several very vital questions to ask.

21 JUDGE MAY: Well, ask them quickly.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I'll skip over some of

23 them, but I am going to ask others.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Do you know that after the 10th of June, 1999, in the territory of

1 the Gnjilane municipality, 87 Serbs were killed, one Albanian, and five

2 members of other ethnic groups? Do you know about that?

3 A. Where? Where did that happen? In what village? In Zheger or

4 where? I am not clear.

5 Q. In the Gnjilane municipality, but I'll read out two names from the

6 village of Zegra itself. Nebojsa Zivkovic, for example, from Zegra

7 village - it happened in Zegra - and Momcilo Zivkovic, on the 22nd of

8 June, 1999, also in Zegra. Do you know about that?

9 A. I know nothing about that because I was in Macedonia during that

10 time. So I know nothing about what happened with these people.

11 Q. And do you know about the killed Albanian Daut Morina at the

12 Ferizpetrol pump on the 22nd of August, 2000?

13 A. Yes, I heard about that. I did.

14 Q. And do you know about the killing also of -- that took place in

15 November 1999 and then in March 2000, April 2000, Xhaber Rexhepi, Qamil

16 Ramaci [phoen], Haxhi Agushi, Inekmi Agushi [phoen]? Do you know about

17 them, about those killings? All that happened on your own territory.

18 A. I know nothing about these murders. I don't remember these

19 names.

20 Q. All right. You said that the Albanian population was cheerful

21 when the bombing started, and these are your words. You said that, for

22 you, it meant the end of Serb rule and the Slav peoples. That's what you

23 said. "The end of Serb and Slavic rule."

24 A. Even earlier I said that we used to organise demonstrations

25 against the Serb violence which even before the war took place in

1 Drenica. We have always asked for outside help and assistance because, as

2 the population of Kosova, we felt defenseless and discriminated against,

3 tortured in every segment of life.

4 Q. I am asking you about what you yourself said. "The end of the

5 rule of Slav peoples, Slav nations." Are you a racist?

6 A. No. I don't know myself to be a racist. I may say that the end

7 of the Serbian and the Yugoslavian government in Kosova, because I cannot

8 imagine Kosova without the presence of Serb elements in it.

9 Q. Well, you won't be able to imagine it without the presence of Serb

10 elements. You needn't worry about that. But you said, "the end of Slav

11 peoples, Slav nations." What have you got against the Slav nations, the

12 Slav people?

13 A. I was talking about the sufferings to which my people were

14 subjected in the course of their history. It is a fact of life that our

15 people have always been suffering.

16 Q. I'm asking you something quite different. What have you got

17 against the Slav peoples? Because you said, "The end of rule of Slav

18 nations." The Macedonians are a Slav nation, and you're shooting in

19 Macedonia, killing Macedonians. Do you think that Macedonians should be

20 expelled from Macedonia as well?

21 JUDGE MAY: The witness has given an answer. It will be for the

22 Trial Chamber to determine what weight to give it.

23 Now, Mr. Milosevic, two more questions and then the time has

24 elapsed.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Do you know how many citizens died under the bombs and whether

2 they, too, were cheerful if they were Albanians?

3 JUDGE MAY: The latter part is a comment.

4 Do you know how many people died as a result of the bomb?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean the -- what kind of

6 bombing? If you mean the NATO bombing --

7 JUDGE MAY: NATO bombing, yes.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. If you talk about the NATO

9 bombing against the Serb forces, I have no information about that, about

10 the casualties --

11 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- or whatever.

13 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes, Mr. Milosevic, one last question.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. And do you believe that the families of those Albanians who were

16 killed in NATO bombing were also cheerful over the fact that they were

17 being bombed by NATO?

18 JUDGE MAY: That's a comment.

19 The amici, have you any questions?

20 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] By your leave, Your Honours, only

21 a few matters that Mr. Shabani referred to. I would like to clarify them,

22 actually.

23 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Shabani, awhile ago you said, when Slobodan

25 Milosevic was questioning you about the killing of Avni, that you learnt

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 about that only upon your return. Did I understand you correctly?

2 A. Yes, that's correct. When I returned, I heard from Hysen Hyseni.

3 Q. Can you explain when -- when you were being questioned by

4 investigator on the 13th of June, the 15th of June, and the 16th of June,

5 precisely in your village in Zheger, at that time you described this event

6 as if you had watched it yourself. How do you explain this?

7 A. Even earlier, but now in the case of investigators, I have told

8 them, I have mentioned the name, but probably they didn't understand it.

9 Maybe in the course of the interpretation, something, I mean, has not been

10 properly interpreted, because even then I mentioned this during the --

11 during the investigation. Also I said this. But probably it didn't come

12 out properly during the interpretation, I think.

13 Q. No. You said then that you saw the policeman who did that. You

14 even said to one -- that one of them was Jova, that the other one was

15 Dragan, that they were from Zegra, and you explained from what distance

16 they were shooting, and you described it as if you had been watching all

17 that.

18 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, in fairness, if --

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: -- if the amici is putting to the witness that he

21 said he saw, I believe -- I think the Court ought to look at the passage

22 in the statement since both have now cross-examined on this point. In

23 fairness to the witness, to suggest that he said he saw was --

24 JUDGE MAY: Can you read out what he said, please?

25 MR. RYNEVELD: Would you like me to?

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Just read it out so we can hear.

2 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. I believe this is the same passage that was

3 put to him by the accused, but the words were: "There was about three to

4 four policemen I knew in the field, about 400 metres from him. One was

5 called Jova LNU --" meaning last name unknown -- "the other was Dragan

6 LNU. The others I did not know. The two I have named were from Zheger."

7 Now, I understand how my friend is suggesting that he saw this.

8 However, the witness is simply saying that the names recounted to him were

9 people he knew. That's -- that is -- and I think -- I have copies of the

10 statement here.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we'd better have them.

12 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could copies please be provided?

13 Because he did not mention at all that anybody had told him about this.

14 He was talking about the distance, how they walked up to him, what they

15 did. Not at a single moment does he mention that it was somebody else who

16 told him about this. Please have a look yourselves.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: I accept the fact that it is not clear that this is

18 something he heard and it does read as if he saw it himself, but he's

19 explained that.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: What page?

21 JUDGE MAY: Can you tell us where it is, please.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honours. It is in the fourth paragraph

23 of the English version, which reads, "start page 2." So the beginning of

24 the statement itself, the cover page being page 1.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please

1 explain? If he cannot explain, I'm not insisting on this. I just feel

2 duty-bound to point this out.

3 JUDGE MAY: I think we have the point, Mr. Tapuskovic. We have

4 the passage in front us.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you. Perhaps I

6 would not have even asked about this had Slobodan Milosevic not referred

7 to it awhile ago. So I thought that this required clarification.

8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tapuskovic, I have an English version of the

9 statement. The last sentence of paragraph 4 is this: "I heard this from

10 a local after I returned." That's what he said.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: Yes.

12 Q. [Interpretation] The first day when you spoke here, you said that

13 in the village that you lived in there were about 70 Serb families, and

14 beforehand you said in this witness statement that we've been referring to

15 that there were 98 Serb houses, Serb families. So which one of the two is

16 correct?

17 A. The correct version about the number of Serb houses would be -- I

18 said it's not a precise number. I said it's an accurate number because

19 there were some families from Zheger village that lived in some houses in

20 the city. So the number is variable. So in fact, we didn't count the

21 families exactly. More or less this is an estimate.

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon. I do have to

23 go back to what I read out a minute ago. I have carefully read what I

24 read awhile ago and also in reference to what Judge Kwon said. It is the

25 morgue that he refers to as being something that he heard about from a

1 local. So I really have to draw your attention to this. Mr. Shabani was

2 talking about this thing that he was not sure about. He was not sure

3 about what happened at the morgue. So it is not related to the event

4 itself. I have to explain this yet again, because I noticed it only now.

5 JUDGE MAY: I'm not sure that I agree with that interpretation,

6 but we have the whole passage, and we'll have to determine what weight to

7 give it.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I agree. However, in relation to

9 the houses, he also said at the beginning of his statement something else,

10 that in that part of the village where the Serb houses were predominantly,

11 between and among these houses there were quite a few Albanian houses as

12 well.

13 Q. Is that correct?

14 A. I said around these houses there were also Albanian houses.

15 Around Serb houses there were also Albanian houses. This is what I said.

16 The Serbs were not isolated or the Albanian houses were not kind of

17 clearly divided from the Serb houses in living in certain areas. This is

18 what I meant.

19 Q. You said clearly last time that those Serb houses that were there

20 had Albanian houses among them as well. That's what you said only

21 yesterday.

22 A. I only said that around the Serb houses there were also Albanian

23 houses. That is, the Serb houses were not separate from the Albanian

24 houses. They were neighbours. They had only the walls of the houses

25 separating -- of the yards separating them, but they lived in close

1 proximity with each other.

2 Q. Well, does that mean that Serb houses were totally surrounded by

3 Albanian houses and that between the Serb houses there were no Albanian

4 houses whatsoever?

5 A. I am not clear. I'm sorry, I'm not clear about the question.

6 Q. If there were Albanian houses around the Serb houses, were there

7 any Albanian houses between and among the Serb houses?

8 A. Yes, there were some Albanian houses between and around, and also

9 the same can be said of Serb houses.

10 Q. Were Serb houses among Albanian houses outside that particular

11 neighbourhood?

12 A. I'm not clear. I'm sorry. Can you repeat the question, please.

13 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic, what is the relevance of this? Can

14 you help us?

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The relevance will be shown

16 through my next questions. I need to hear -- actually, the witness put it

17 this way: He said that Serb houses were in one part of the village and

18 that among them there were Albanian houses. He said that yesterday. He

19 explained it a bit further today, and then he explained that around the

20 Serb houses there were Albanian houses. I asked him whether among these

21 Serb houses there were Albanian houses as well, and he said yes. And now

22 I'm interested whether beyond that circle where the Serb houses were, were

23 there any Serb houses outside that circle in the neighbourhood where there

24 were predominantly Albanian houses?

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes. The question I asked you was what is the

1 relevance of this? How is it going to assist us in trying this case?

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Judge May, then I have to

3 continue with my questions so that this could be understood.

4 JUDGE MAY: No. Can you explain to us why you are asking these

5 questions. What is the point?

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I am putting these questions in

7 relation to the pieces of white cloth that he referred to, that he

8 referred to yesterday. I have to ask about this so that I could put

9 further questions about these pieces of white cloth that he referred to

10 yesterday, and he said that these were an expression of fascism and of

11 fascist genocide. That's the reason.

12 JUDGE MAY: Can you ask the question about the white cloth,

13 please, and we can move on more quickly.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. He said that the Serb

15 families marked their homes by putting a piece of white cloth on the door,

16 and he said that this was an expression of fascism, or rather, the fascist

17 feelings among the Serbs.

18 Q. Now, my question is: Is this the reason, or is it possible that

19 the Serbs put up these white cloths on their houses so that they could

20 perhaps show the houses that no gunfire was coming from?

21 A. No, that is not true. This means that such -- the idea was,

22 behind the white cloth, that such houses should not be attacked or shot at

23 by people who didn't know, were not familiar with the ground and, because

24 of their ignorance, they might also shoot at the Serb houses, that is,

25 their own troops, their own forces. That's why they did that. White

1 cloths put on their doors was done by the Serbs themselves, as I said, for

2 certain purposes that I just explained.

3 Q. Thank you. Is the white cloth also a sign of surrender?

4 A. If you look at it from -- during the war, in wartime, the white

5 sign might be taken as a sign of surrender, but in this case the Serb

6 forces were present all over the village. So the sign marked out the Serb

7 houses from the Albanian houses, so those could not be targeted at by the

8 Serb forces, who should shoot only at the Albanian houses, which didn't

9 have any white cloth. That was the crux of the matter, I would say.

10 Q. Thank you. That would suffice, as far as I'm concerned. I'm

11 interested in the following, though: Could this also have been a sign

12 that in these houses with the white flags, there were no members of the

13 KLA?

14 A. No. This was only a sign that these houses belonged only to the

15 Serb population. That is all. It has got nothing to do with KLA.

16 Otherwise all the houses, with the exception of those houses with the

17 white sign, would be Albanian houses.

18 Q. I'm just interested in one more thing related to this question,

19 and then I will go on. On these white cloths, was there any sign? First

20 of all, was there a fascist sign or any sign on these flags?

21 A. I know from fascist methods used that they tried to separate one

22 identity from another, one house from another, with --

23 JUDGE MAY: Just concentrate on the question, please. Was there

24 any sign on the cloth or not? If there wasn't, say so, please.

25 A. No. It was only a plain white cloth on their doors. That's what

1 I said, such kind of cloths. I mean, this is what I saw, only that. My

2 house was a little bit far away from these houses. I couldn't see from my

3 home, from that distance, if there were any special signs in these white

4 cloths.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. Shabani, you said yesterday and today that then you arrived at

7 the village of Donja Stubla. There were no Serb forces or policemen

8 there; right?

9 A. In the Lower Stubla, when we went there, at some moments there

10 were no troops. When we were there, the Serb forces arrived. The Serb

11 police came only to see -- to monitor the situation, to see what was

12 happening, and for their own interests, which they know themselves.

13 Q. Please, could you explain this. In this statement that you gave

14 to the investigators, you said, verbatim, and I'm reading this: "There

15 were no Serb forces there or policemen." That's the first thing you

16 said. And then you said, on the next page: "The Serb forces never came

17 to Stubla."

18 JUDGE MAY: Well, I think you should read on.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] The police only went to Gornja

20 Stubla, but not to where they were. Further on in the text, it also says:

21 "The army and the police did not come to Stubla at all." This is the

22 fifth paragraph on that page. So he repeated that four times, and the

23 last time he literally said: "The army and the police did not come to

24 Donja Stubla at all." It is one, two, three, four, five, the fifth

25 paragraph. And they were there for all of five weeks, and the army did

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 not come there at all. It's the fifth paragraph. Please. He repeated

2 that four times, and he said, quite unequivocally --

3 JUDGE MAY: Can we put a question, please.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. The question in relation to all of this is the following: He said

6 yesterday that this was a concentration camp, this place where they were

7 quite safe and where the army did not come for all that time, five weeks,

8 and they left there of their own free well, on their own, without any kind

9 of escort. He said yesterday that this was a concentration camp. He did

10 not mention that before, at all, so why did he say that? Why did he say

11 that it was a concentration camp if there was no army or police? If he

12 can explain that, please.

13 A. The Serb army and police were around the village, the villages.

14 That is to say, all the Serb forces were keeping the population under

15 observation. They were monitoring the situation there from the

16 surrounding hills of the village of Stublla, and they had the opportunity

17 to act at any moment, but they knew the time when they would act. All the

18 region was surrounded by the Serbian forces.

19 Q. You had never explained it that way before.

20 A. I said that then.

21 Q. I'm just asking you about what you saw and about what you said.

22 Perhaps it is the way you're putting it right now, but you didn't say that

23 before, and you never said that there was a single policeman or a soldier

24 there. That is what you had said then, and that is what you had said, in

25 a way, over these past two days.

1 JUDGE KWON: Excuse me, Mr. Tapuskovic. What this witness just

2 said was stated in the witness statement again:

3 I noticed that they were just always observing how many people

4 were in Donja Stubla and the surroundings woods. They were military

5 forces in the surroundings of the village, but they never came into the

6 village.

7 He said that in the statement.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: Judge Kwon, I did allow for the possibility a

9 while ago that they were somewhere around the village, but he talked about

10 a concentration camp, and they were there for five weeks without having

11 seen a single one. They did not see a single one.

12 JUDGE KWON: Well, I just remind you -- I'd like to remind what he

13 said in the statement.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. That is a question I

15 shall no longer insist upon. It can be a basis for drawing a conclusion

16 in a way.

17 Q. You also said here that you were being shot at, and you saw what

18 you said you saw. And in your statement, which I'm referring to and which

19 is before the Judges, on page 4 - no, 5 - you said: "They were shooting,

20 but we did not know who they were shooting at or whether they had seen us

21 at all."

22 A. When we were fleeing, on the way, I have stressed that we were

23 being shot at by the Serb forces from a distance. All the population

24 present there heard the sound of gunshots, and I have stated that, and

25 there were wounded people.

1 Q. I'm not denying that. I'm not challenging that. But you said:

2 "They were shooting, but we did not know who they were shooting at or

3 whether they had seen us at all." However, there was shooting there.

4 Nobody is denying that. There was shooting there, but they were not

5 shooting at you, and you do not know who they were shooting at.

6 A. That we didn't know who they were, but we were aware that the Serb

7 forces were shooting at the civilian population, and this is the truth,

8 and I spoke about it earlier.

9 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you also said that your group, the group

10 that you were in, had their money taken away from them. Is that correct?

11 A. This is true. As we were going towards Macedonia, someone who was

12 there, he started to ask us to collect money, to collect the money from

13 us, and he was saying that it were designated for certain purposes,

14 certain things, but I don't know what for. That person was related to the

15 Serbs.

16 Q. I'm not asking you to say yet again what you've been saying

17 yesterday. I just wanted to check whether I had heard it right. But you

18 said before: "They did not ask our group for any money, but later on I

19 did hear that they asked other groups for money." So that's what you said

20 earlier on when you were --

21 A. It's true that other groups ahead of us and other groups that

22 followed us, they were searched and looted by the Serb military forces.

23 Q. I am just asking you about what you know, and you say that you

24 heard later that others had their money taken away from them, but you only

25 heard about that. That's what you've been telling us; right?

1 A. Of course, I wasn't there with the other groups, but that's what

2 members of those groups stated.

3 Q. You encountered the military. You were going along those roads,

4 as you said - nobody escorted you - and then you crossed the border. When

5 did you see the military? When did you come across the army?

6 A. I saw them in the Rrushtaj village, in one part of the Rrushtaj

7 village. That's where the military came in front of us. That was about

8 2.00.

9 Q. Near the border?

10 A. The border was another ten kilometres further away. So there was

11 another distance to reach the border.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please repeat his question? We

13 could not hear it because he was overlapping the witness.

14 JUDGE MAY: Can you repeat the question?

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I shall be quite direct. I don't

16 want to beat about the bush.

17 Q. You said verbatim earlier on - this is the last paragraph of your

18 statement - "Near the place where we crossed the border into Macedonia,

19 in the trenches there were soldiers. Nobody stopped us, and we did not

20 come across anyone as we were crossing the border."

21 And here you've been saying that you were afraid that you would

22 see the army lest you be massacred. So first and foremost, is it true

23 what you said then, that: "There were soldiers in the trenches where you

24 crossed the border into Macedonia, nobody stopped us, and we did not come

25 across anyone as we were crossing the border"?

1 JUDGE MAY: Do you understand the question?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand the question.

3 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic, could you rephrase it shortly,

4 please.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It is hard to rephrase something

6 that is contained in his very own statement. I'm asking him whether it is

7 indeed so, the way he put it here in his statement. "Near the place where

8 we crossed into Macedonia --"

9 JUDGE MAY: Just put a short part of the statement to him, a

10 sentence or so, and ask him if it's correct.

11 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. You saw soldiers in the trenches just before you crossed the

13 border?

14 A. The army was present, but we were not focusing on that because we

15 wanted to cross the border and it was dark and we don't meet them, and I

16 stressed that.

17 Q. Nobody stopped you?

18 A. Our group was not stopped. We were stopped at the Rrushtaj

19 village. But when we crossed the border, we were not stopped.

20 Q. You were not the victims of a massacre when you encountered the

21 army? And that is what you had feared. This is the only remaining

22 question I have for you.

23 A. As can be seen, I was not a victim, because I would have been

24 killed and wouldn't be here.

25 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 MR. RYNEVELD: One administrative matter, if I might. Could a

3 number be assigned to the statement that -- might that be marked as an

4 exhibit?

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. One question in re-examination, if I

7 might be permitted, for clarification. Sorry.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 31.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

10 Re-examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

11 Q. Sir, under cross-examination, it was suggested to you by the

12 accused about an incident where you were alleged to be the cashier of a

13 financial service for the KLA. You then gave a response that you were a

14 cashier of some education fund and that you admitted that you were taken

15 into custody for questioning by the police. My question to you simply --

16 that's the issue I want to direct you to. My question is: Was that

17 cashier's service have anything to do with the KLA, as suggested by the

18 accused?

19 A. No. It had nothing to do with the KLA. It was exclusively for

20 humanitarian purposes, for educational purposes, for paying teachers and

21 so on.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 A. This was its purpose.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. RYNEVELD: One final matter, Your Honour. In

1 cross-examination something was put to this witness for which we do not

2 have documents with us, but we do intend to call another witness later on

3 in these proceedings to provide evidence by way of rebuttal.

4 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

5 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

6 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Shabani, that concludes your evidence. Thank you

7 for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

8 [The witness withdrew]

9 MR. KAY: Your Honour, before the next witness is called, which

10 you will see on the list that's been provided this morning is a witness

11 called Kadriu, in a position that's been changed from a previous

12 designation of order. It was going to be Witness number 15 in that list,

13 Sakir, who was going to be called this morning. The accused has made a

14 number of comments to me about the change in the order because he had

15 prepared for the witness Sakir this morning, and the change in the order

16 means that he is unprepared to deal with the witness Kadriu.

17 JUDGE MAY: It looks as though he's going to give extensive

18 evidence, judging by the summary. There can be no injustice if he gives

19 his evidence in chief now. We don't call upon the accused to

20 cross-examine. The accused can prepare his cross-examination overnight.

21 MR. KAY: Yes, it's often difficult to explain this matter because

22 we've got an earlier finish to the day today, and of course that witness

23 will still be giving evidence and probably all through tomorrow as well.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Is there anything you want to add, Mr. Kay?

1 MR. KAY: No. Cross-examination is --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Kay.

3 MR. KAY: No. Cross-examination really is the point. If the

4 accused can hold back his position. He is yet unaware how long this

5 witness is going to be, I think.

6 JUDGE MAY: This witness is going to be some time, Mr. Nice, isn't

7 he?

8 MR. NICE: This is a substantial witness, and although I'll do

9 everything I can to make it brief, I think it's likely to take not only

10 today but most of tomorrow's session in chief.

11 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you will not be called to cross-examine

12 this witness who is coming today, and it's likely you probably won't start

13 until Friday, although you may have to make a start tomorrow.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated] The

15 gentleman heard my conversation with the representative of the Registry

16 sitting in front of you there, and she told me during the break a moment

17 ago, she informed me that the order of the witnesses had been changed, and

18 I reacted to that when she told me, I hope with -- I rightly -- I did so

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted) Kadriu on your list.

23 As you know full well, gentlemen, of all the means that I have at

24 my disposal -- actually, I don't have a telephone. That is my only means

25 of communication. And I think, therefore, that it is logical for me to

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 expect to have a timetable for one week without its being changed,

2 regardless of whether this is something that the opposite party wants or

3 not, whether it suits the opposite side or not, because I'm able to come

4 by relevant information in that way.

5 In a situation -- in this kind of situation where I have nothing

6 at my disposal except a telephone box in the corridor of the prison, any

7 changes in the order of witnesses directly denies me of this minimum

8 element and means of arriving at the truth with respect to the testimonies

9 and statements of your witnesses.

10 I insist upon being provided with a timetable for the order of

11 witnesses at least a week in advance so that I can act accordingly.

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, the accused has a point. He's representing

13 himself and, therefore, it is more complicated for him than in the normal

14 case if the order is changed. Now, no doubt there's good reason for this

15 change. If you would bear it in mind and keep it -- any changes to a

16 minimum.

17 MR. NICE: Before I come to deal with that as a matter of urgency,

18 may the comments he made about protected witnesses be redacted from the

19 broadcast to the public, please.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

21 MR. NICE: On the other point, he's had lists of witnesses, and of

22 course they always are susceptible to change at the last minute, but he's

23 had the lists available to him for months, and the statements to read. We

24 do our best to notify the changes in the immediate forthcoming witnesses

25 whenever we can. Yesterday's fire is the immediate problem of the latest

1 necessary change, but we'll do what we can.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes, Mr. Kay.

3 MR. NICE: Before the next witness is called -- sorry.

4 MR. KAY: Sorry. Just on the matter of the accused's facilities,

5 the amici have filed a motion today relating to provision of assistance

6 for him in the conduct of his defence. There was one motion filed, but

7 it's been re-filed in much more clearer terms, I hope, in its argument.

8 Maybe that would be something that the Trial Chamber might deal with

9 fairly expeditiously.

10 JUDGE MAY: Well, we've considered the other one. We need to hear

11 what the Registry say about the present arrangements and any comments they

12 may have, and in fact, we filed an order today ordering the Registry to

13 comment.

14 MR. KAY: I'm grateful.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

16 MR. NICE: Before this witness comes in, I've had a request from a

17 member of the press, saying that they are having difficulty in filing copy

18 with witness names accurately spelt because frequently they can't pick up

19 the spelling simply from the name read out, and they are concerned both

20 that they should be professional in what they distribute, and they're also

21 concerned that witnesses shouldn't have their names misspelt, and

22 apparently in the past one or two witnesses have had their names misspelt

23 in a way that makes them barely recognisable.

24 It seems to me that that, if I may say so, is a not unreasonable

25 request. The only way of getting round it, if we don't do what I'm going

1 to propose, is that the press have to come to the Prosecution and seek

2 these details and I'm always concerned to keep to a minimum contact

3 between the press and the Prosecution for obvious reasons. Might it be

4 acceptable to the Chamber when a witness is called to have his name simply

5 revealed on the overhead projector, properly spelt, as I've prepared for

6 this witness, so that it can be accurately reflected in newspapers?

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

8 MR. NICE: Thank you. In which case, may Mr. Sabit Kadriu come

9 in, please.

10 JUDGE MAY: We shall be adjourning at 12.15.

11 MR. NICE: While he's coming in -- the witness is being brought --

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic wants to raise something. Yes,

13 Mr. Tapuskovic.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to say

15 the following: This change in the order of witnesses is profoundly one of

16 principle. We cannot, and the accused especially in a day when a witness

17 is to be questioned, be informed that that particular witness will have to

18 be questioned on that day. So we all have to do our duties to the best of

19 our abilities and as far as we are able, and faced with a situation of

20 this kind, when not even the amici curiae know what witness is going to be

21 questioned in advance but when the questioning goes ahead, this goes

22 against the basic principles guaranteed by the Rules and Statute itself.

23 So if we are here to enable and facilitate the work of the Trial

24 Chamber, this should at all costs be avoided in future.

25 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic, it's not a matter of principle. The

1 principle is that the trial should be fair, which means that the accused

2 has sufficient time to prepare for his cross-examination. That we will

3 ensure happens. Thank you.

4 MR. NICE: While the witness is being brought in, if he may be,

5 can I also inform the Chamber he brought a number of original documents

6 with him in both Albanian and B/C/S.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 MR. NICE: We've managed to get most of them -- to have draft

9 translations. There may be one or two items where the draft translation

10 isn't available. I may be seeking some indulgence there, but it will be

11 very limited.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

16 WITNESS: SABIT KADRIU

17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 MR. NICE: Would the usher just take this sheet of paper for the

19 ELMO. I'll, in the future, have them typed up, I hope.

20 Examined by Mr. Nice:

21 Q. Is your name Sabit Kadriu?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Mr. Kadriu, I'm going to ask you a series of questions to which I

24 hope very short yes or no answers will be appropriate so that we can deal

25 with your background swiftly.

1 MR. NICE: It may be convenient if the Chamber has before it the

2 map which shows Vushtrri or Vucitrn. It's coming up.

3 Q. But indeed, are you now 41 years old, a Kosovo Albanian Muslim?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Having --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Having lived most of your life in Brusnik in the municipality of

8 Vucitrn, with your parents and nine siblings?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Has any member of your family been involved with the KLA?

11 A. Yes, one of them.

12 Q. Who?

13 A. Kemajl, who studied in Tirana. After he finished his studies, he

14 wasn't able to return. He was involved there in Tirana.

15 Q. Did you, in 1990, become a member of the Council for Human Rights

16 in Vucitrn?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you become its president?

19 A. Yes, I was its president, the president of the Council of Human

20 Rights.

21 Q. And have you more recently worked as assistant to the president of

22 the municipality?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And as a result of that, did you cease your work for the Council

25 for Human Rights?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Your own educational background is that you were at Pristina

3 University between 1979 and 1984?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. May we look, please, now very briefly at map 10 of Exhibit 4 so we

6 can begin to familiarise ourselves with the relevant geography. Vucitrn

7 in North Kosovo is shown in the centre of the map. Your village --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. -- of Brusnik is south-west. Just point it out, please, with the

10 pointer. It's not on the screen maybe. Yes, it is. Yes.

11 A. That's where it is.

12 Q. Thank you very much. You'll find that you'll be being asked to

13 point to things on the map. You can probably do it from the seated

14 position if it's more comfortable to you.

15 Mr. Kadriu, I want you to deal with this extremely briefly. It's

16 the last paragraph on page 1. Just yes or no. Was there a memorandum

17 believed to have been published by members of the Academy of Arts and

18 Science of two people, Garasanin and Cubrilovic, a long time ago now, in

19 the 1930s?

20 JUDGE MAY: I think unless anyone wants to ask --

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues]... assist us.

23 MR. NICE: No, Your Honour. I was going to leave it on the basis

24 is that although the witness may find it significant, he can answer

25 questions if asked --

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

2 MR. NICE: -- and move straight on, because I then want to come to

3 1981.

4 Q. And again briefly, in 1981, was there an encyclopedia of the

5 history of the peoples of Yugoslavia published and was that a document

6 thought by some to be significant in its - just yes or no - in its

7 reflection of Albanian interests?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. In March or April of 1981, were there student

10 protests?

11 A. Yes, there were protests and demonstrations, because of the

12 situation that was created --

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Judge May.

14 JUDGE MAY: There's an interruption. Yes.

15 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have a comment to make. These

16 are things for expert witnesses. This witness cannot speak about matters

17 which are within the realm of expert witnesses, and I think we would be

18 going along the wrong road following this route.

19 JUDGE MAY: He said nothing about this. He's merely referred to

20 some demonstrations by way, as I understand it, of background, and no

21 more. He's not giving expert evidence at all.

22 Yes, Mr. Nice.

23 MR. NICE:

24 Q. Were you involved in those demonstrations yourself?

25 A. I was involved because of the dissatisfaction that was created by

1 the Yugoslavia Encyclopedia that was published then. My people -- which

2 was the third from the point of size --

3 Q. Mr. Kadriu, it's difficult, I know, especially when observations

4 are made about your evidence. For the time being, if we can deal with

5 things by yes/no answers, we'll move on swiftly, and you can always answer

6 further questions.

7 You were involved in student protests. Two other questions, just

8 absolutely in summary: What happened to people who were protesting? What

9 were the consequences for some of them?

10 A. In these demonstrations, we did not demand anything other than

11 Kosovo to be a republic, with a similar status to the other republics of

12 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. And the protests continued on the

13 26th of March and 1st and 2nd of April, and they ended up with

14 mistreatment and, in some cases, killings of those who participated.

15 Q. And who, what group or organisation, was controlling or trying to

16 suppress, or whatever it was, these protests?

17 A. It was the Yugoslav government who had engaged all the state

18 apparatus in Kosovo, including other assisting forces from Serbia and the

19 rest of Yugoslavia.

20 Q. Were troops involved?

21 A. It was mainly special units, but on certain cases there were

22 certain failed moves on the part of the Yugoslav army.

23 Q. Thank you. Did you return from --

24 A. Reinforced moves.

25 Q. Did you return from student life to your home village of Brusnik?

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 A. After I finished my studies, I returned to my village.

2 Q. Did you have difficulties finding work at that time? Just yes or

3 no.

4 A. Yes, I had difficulties.

5 Q. Did you do your military service between 1987 and 1988?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Turning again to Brusnik, where you eventually gained work as an

8 Albanian teacher in the Vushtrri school in December 1988 --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. -- the ethnic composition of that school being how many Albanian

11 and how many Serbian students, approximately?

12 A. There were about 2.700 pupils, students, of which about 250 were

13 Serbian, of Serbian nationality.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes. It's time for the adjournment. Speaking for

15 myself, I should say that as far as the accused and the amici are

16 concerned, that any cross-examination about events 20 years ago, to which

17 this witness has referred, will be limited. The relevance of these events

18 is extremely limited, as far as this trial is concerned, as far as I can

19 see, and speaking for myself, cross-examination will also be limited.

20 Yes. We'll adjourn now. Twenty minutes, please.

21 --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 12.38 p.m.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

24 MR. NICE:

25 Q. Mr. Kadriu, with the change in the status of Kosovo's autonomy in

1 1989, or thereabouts, was there a movement of young Kosovar Albanians that

2 you became aware of?

3 A. Yes. There was all-popular movement, movement joined by the

4 minors, the people, the students, towards Pristina, to voice their

5 discontent, which was great, very great.

6 Q. My question was unhelpfully asked. My fault. Was there also any

7 population movement, one way or the other, or in perhaps two ways, that

8 you became aware of?

9 A. Yes. There was a major movement of the population from Pristina

10 to Mitrovica. All the people rose to their feet out of their discontent

11 resulting from the amendment of the constitution of Kosova. The students

12 in their township, the people at large, they were all moving towards

13 Pristina.

14 Q. Was there -- I've been told that I'm jumping too quickly in at the

15 end of questions, and I will try and slow down. Was there any movement of

16 Serbs in all within Kosovo that you became aware of?

17 A. During that time - in Vushtrri I'm talking about, in Prelluzhe

18 village - because of this discontent, and in order for it to stop, the

19 Serb population of the village had the reason and the Albanian -- and had

20 driven out the Albanian students out of the school. I think that was the

21 first sign of separating the Albanian students from the Serb students.

22 Q. Thank you for that. And as a matter of fact, where did most of

23 the relocated students from Prelluzhe go?

24 A. Albanian students who were driven out of their school had to have

25 their lessons in Stanovci i Poshtem school.

1 MR. NICE: Your Honour, Prelluzhe can be seen on the same map,

2 slightly to the south and east of the witness's village.

3 Q. Going back to the question of population movements in general, was

4 there any movement into Kosovo of Serbs at any time, or at about this

5 time, of which you were aware?

6 A. During 1987 to 1989, I was a soldier. I was doing my military

7 service. And I remember very well when the accused came to power, there

8 were Serb movements, not only in Prelluzhe, but also in other towns of

9 Kosova. A very extensive movement was under way, during which women were

10 instrumentalised [as interpreted], demanded the resignation of Fadil

11 Hoxha. I think it was 1987, 1989 -- 1988, sorry.

12 Q. Finally on this, because I don't want to take too long on it: Do

13 you remember any movements in relation to Velikoreke, which is a village

14 the Court can find south and east or east of Brusnik, on the other side of

15 the railway track?

16 A. During this time, but especially after the wars in Croatia and in

17 Bosnia, but even earlier, a village had started to be built, with all the

18 necessary town-planning facilities, in Velikoreke, and in this village,

19 the population which had left Croatia and Bosnia were settled in this

20 village with the purpose of, I think, changing the ethnic structure of the

21 population.

22 Q. Was there an incident at a school or schools involving gas,

23 apparently? If so, can you give us a date and then tell us about the

24 incident, but only in a couple of sentences.

25 A. Yes, there was. It happened in 1990. I think it was April. I'm

1 not very sure about the date. At that time, our students were poisoned.

2 There were over 250 students - 253, actually - who were poisoned with a

3 poisonous gas which was used in our school and in other schools of

4 Kosova. This was public knowledge. You could find it in all information

5 media.

6 Q. At that time, were Albanian and Serbian students attending school

7 at the same times or was there some segregation in the time at which they

8 attended?

9 A. No. At that time, the principal was a Serb. The Serb students

10 had their lessons in the morning, and only in one part of the school. But

11 in the morning. And in the afternoon, parallel with it, there were the

12 Albanian students who had their -- who went to their classes.

13 MR. NICE: Your Honours, the document referred to, SK1, for the

14 purposes of the summary is a document that has not been translated. It is

15 a document that deals with this. It is available for inspection if anyone

16 wants to see it. I move on to the Council for Human Rights.

17 Q. You've told us about that. Was it formed in 1990? We know about

18 your position. How many members in Vushtrri did it have?

19 A. At the outset, there were 77 members of the local branch of Human

20 Rights Council of Vushtrri. But later, because of fear and reprisals, the

21 number started to reduce.

22 Q. What was the purpose and function of the council in Vushtrri?

23 A. The purpose and the functions of this council in Vushtrri was to

24 make public -- to report on the violence, reprisals that were being

25 committed after the deprivation of Kosova's autonomy by the Yugoslav

1 government.

2 Q. And to do so, did you conduct inquiries and receive information

3 from others on a regular basis?

4 A. I'm not clear about the question. Can I have it repeated,

5 please?

6 Q. Did y