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Programme Number: 033
Week of: 30th January 2005
Recording Date: Thursday, 03 February 2005
DARFUR, SUDAN
NARRATOR:
This is United Nations Radio from New York.
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under narration.)
NARRATOR:
Hello and welcome to, UN and Africa. I'm, Ben Dotsei
Malor.
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hold under)
NARRATOR:
An international commission says certain members of
the Sudan government and its allied militias should
be put on trial for war crimes in Darfur. So what did
UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan tell the Sudanese prseident
when they met a few days ago at the AU summit in Nigeria?
CLIP-1, SECRETARY-GENERAL: DUR 20"
"And I was also able to sit down with President
[Omar Al-] Bashir of Sudan and his Foreign Minister
with my representative [Jan] Pronk, for us to tell them
exactly what we think should be done, and the fact that
the situation in Darfur was not getting any better,
and it was essential that they took every step to bring
the situation under control."
NARRATOR:
Some of the rebels fighting the government in Darfur
must also be tried for war crimes, according to the
commission. But who should conduct the trials? And how
soon can they begin? The current President of the Security
Council, Ambassador Joel Adechi of Benin, says the Council
will take prompt action.
CLIP-2, AMBASSADOR JOEL ADECHI: DUR 16"
"The Security Council members stand is united in
their agreement and their determination to make sure
that impunity is not allowed and is addressed in an
international recognized way."
NARRATOR:
We'll also be hearing from the Special Adviser on Genocide,
Juan Mendez, on why the atrocities in Darfur have not
been described as genocide.
Stay tuned to UN and Africa.
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DARFUR, SUDAN: REPORT COMMISSION OF INQUIRY
NARRATOR:
A UN Commission of Inquiry, which has just conducted
investigations into human rights violations in Sudan's
Darfur region, is calling for some members of the Sudanese
government and its allied militias, including the Janjaweed,
to be put on trial, for war crimes and other atrocities
committed in Darfur.
In a report just released, the five-member international
commission says that government forces and supporters
committed crimes, including killings, torture, rape
and other forms of sexual violence.
But quite significantly, the commission's report stopped
short of calling the atrocities genocide. It concludes
that while these crimes were conducted on a widespread
and systematic basis and may amount to crimes against
humanity, the government of Sudan has not pursued a
policy of genocide.
More than 70,000 people have been killed and nearly
2 million others have been displaced or become refugees,
since Darfur rebels took up arms against the government
to end what they described as the marginalisation of
their people and region by the central government in
Khartoum.
" So, how significant is the commission's conclusion
that there was no genocide in Darfur?
" Does this, in any way, exonerate the government?
" Where should the accused be tried? At the International
Criminal Court or should a separate court be set up?
We'll be dealing with these questions in just a moment,
and finding out what UN Secretary-General, Kofi Annan,
has to say on the matter.
But first, the key highlights of the Darfur Report …
Haile Menkerios, a Director in the UN's Political Affairs
Department has been giving me the details.
INTERVIEW: HAILE MENKERIOS DUR: 3' 34"
HM: First of all the mandate that was given to the Commission
to verify four issues. Number one is to investigate
violations of human rights and international humanitarian
law in Darfur by all parties. The second was to determine
whether or not acts of genocide have occurred. The third
is to identify the perpetrators. The fourth is to suggest
means of ensuring that those responsible for such violations
are held accountable.
BM: And how would you summarize the findings?
HM: Based on an extensive investigation throughout
the three states of Darfur and a thorough analysis of
existing reports, of testimonies gathered, the Commission
established that the government of Sudan and the Janjaweed
are responsible for serious violations of human rights
and international humanitarian law, including deliberate
and indiscriminate attacks against civilians, killing,
torture and forced disappearance, destruction of villages,
rape and other forms of sexual violence, pillaging and
forced displacement. These crimes were conducted, it
says, on a widespread systematic basis, and thus may
amount to crimes against humanity. The Commission also
found that enough evidence exists to suggest that the
rebel forces are also responsible for serious violations
of international humanitarian law though not on a systematic
and massive scale, thus amounting to war crimes only.
BM: One key thing people seem to be looking at is the
finding there was no genocide. How significant is that
finding?
HM: I think what is significant about the report is
to concentrate on what it says rather than what it doesn't
say. It is to concentrate on what it describes happened
in Darfur rather than on the labels it gives them. And
it does say that given the nature and extent of the
crimes that have been perpetrated in Darfur, it is no
less heinous. What it found is no less heinous and serious
than the crime of genocide. I think that is what we
should concentrate on, on what it found rather than
what it didn't find and to concentrate on how this may
be redressed (faintly) and stopped.
BM: And talking about how it may be redressed, finally,
what next right now?
HM: It is up to the Security Council to decide what
mechanism should be employed to continue to handle the
situation in Darfur. But the Commission has suggested
providing a lengthy argument why, that the Security
Council should, under Chapter VII refer the issue to
the International Criminal Court. It says the Court
exists right now and therefore it is a ready instrument.
It would do a faster job. All the, in other words, the
mechanisms are there and therefore it would be cheaper
for the international community and given the fact that
already it has the mandate to try the kinds of crimes
they found in Darfur, it wouldn't require new definition
of what its task is and therefore it is ready to do
the job and that's why it has suggested the Security
Council should refer there. But, as I said, it is up
to the Council to decide the best means of dealing with
this issue.
NARRATOR:
That was Haile Menkerios , a Director in the Africa
Division of the UN's Department of Political Affairs.
JUAN MENDEZ, SG'S SPECIAL ADVISER ON GENOCIDE
NARRATOR:
Well, Juan Mendez, is the Secretary-General's Special
Adviser on Genocide … He visited Sudan last September
to look into how the people of Darfur could be protected
from the atrocities. He has been speaking to UN Radio's
Gerry Adams about the commission's report.
INTERVIEW WITH MR JUAN MENDEZ, DUR: 3'07"
I think it's the first time that a very thorough investigation
has been done on the episodes in Darfur starting in
2003 and that have gotten the attention of the international
community.
The report mentions genocide and it also mentions crimes
against humanity. Could you define both of those for
me?
Crimes against humanity are crimes that the international
community is interested on because they consist of killings,
rape, torture, murder, and also putting people in conditions
of life that make life impossible, as long as they are
committed in a widespread or a systematic way. Genocide
is a special species of that, of crimes against humanity
that contains all those elements, but also has the element
of these crimes being committed with the intent to destroy,
in whole or in parts, a human group, by reason of its
ethnicity, race, or religion so it has an additional
requirement to it. And then the third category of international
crimes is what we call war crimes, which are of course
violations of the laws of war committed in battle. That
is, for example attacking the civilian population, killing
soldiers who have already surrendered, torturing prisoners
of war, etc. The three categories sometimes are treated
together.
It seems as though genocide is the most serious crime
in terms of the international community's point of view,
and the report says that genocide was not committed
in Darfur, Sudan. What do you say about that?
Well the report says that there was no governmental
policy of committing genocide. But the report does say
that it does not discount the possibility that some
of the very serious crimes that they do find may have
been committed by some individuals with genocidal intent,
including individuals who may be high officials of the
Sudanese government. The distinction is not unimportant,
I mean its one thing to say there's no official policy
of genocide but that's not the same as to say- one-
that the crimes committed were not serious. They do
say very strenuously that they are just as serious,
even if they consider them crimes against humanity or
war crimes. And- two- that it may well be possible,
and that's for a court of law to decide, whether some
individuals may have acted with genocidal intent.
The government now feels that's it's exonerated. What
about the government's response to this report?
(6:48) Well the government said first that they had
been exonerated when the report was still confidential
and they were the only ones who saw it. Now that it's
public, they are criticizing the report. So in a way
I don't think that they can feel exonerated in any serious
way. If they think that saying that there was no policy
of genocide is an exoneration, they should read the
immediately following paragraphs that say that the crimes
for which they do accuse official polices of the Sudanese
government were nonetheless very serious and that merit
international attention.
NARRATOR:
That was Juan Mendez, the UN Secretary-General's Special
Adviser on Genocide, speaking with UN Radio's Gerry
Adams.
SG AND SC PRESIDENT ON DARFUR REPORT
Well, UN Secretary-General, Kofi Annan, has just attended
an African Union Summit in the Nigerian capital, Abuja,
where he met several African leaders, including the
Sudanese president Omar Hassan El-Bashir.
Now back in UN Headquarters in New York, Mr Annan has
been giving some details of what he told Mr Bashir.
SG CUT 1, MEETING EL-BASHIR IN ABUJA: DUR:
"And I was also able to sit down with President
[Omar Al-] Bashir of Sudan and his Foreign Minister
with my representative [Jan] Pronk, for us to tell them
exactly what we think should be done, and the fact that
the situation in Darfur was not getting any better,
and it was essential that they took every step to bring
the situation under control. And, of course, they were,
at that time, studying the report of the Commission."
The Secretary-General said he also reminded the Sudanese
leader of the possible use of sanctions against his
government.
SG CUT 2, SANCTIONS WARNING:
"We shared with them the reports we've received
on the ground that the situation was getting worse,
including the bombing of a village which they denied,
that they needed to do this and really take measures
to reign in the Janjaweed and others, and indicated
that if they do not do that, as far as I'm concerned,
sanctions were still on the table and the Council may
have to take further action."
Mr Annan has presented the Commission's report to the
influential Security Council, and he expects the Council
to act quickly to bring the accused criminals to justice.
SG CUT 3, ACTION FROM COUNCIL:
"I think the Commission's report is very clear.
It makes very serious recommendations to the Council,
and urges the Council to take prompt action, prompt
action not only to bring those who have perpetrated
crimes, serious crimes, to justice, but also as a warning
to others in the sense that this may help improve the
situation. I hope the Council acts quickly on the recommendations
of the Commission."
The Council is now due to discuss the report within
a week. Here's the president of the council for the
month of February, Ambassador Joel Adechi of the Republic
of Benin.
SECURITY COUNCIL PRESIDENT: dur: 32"
"The members of the Security Council received the
report of the international commission. The Security
Council members stand united in their agreement and
their determination to make sure that impunity is not
allowed and is addressed in some internationally recognized
way. We have to look into the report - it's not a small
document, it's a big one. We have also to refer to our
capitals to send them the report and get instructions
from them also."
NARRATOR:
Ambassador Joel Adechi of Benin.
Meanwhile debate is raging, especially in the Security
Council, about WHICH COURT should try the perpetrators
of the Darfur atrocities. Though the commission has
recommended the International Criminal Court, it has
become clear that at least one key member of the Council
who does not subscribe to the ICC would rather have
the trials conducted by a tribunal, like the one set
up for Sierra Leone or Rwanda. This and other thorny
issues are to be resolved by the Security Council in
the coming days.
And that's it for this edition of UN and Africa, focussing
on the findings of the International Commission of Inquiry
on Darfur, Sudan.
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NARRATOR:
Thanks to the production team of, Derrick Mbatha, Beng
Poblete-Enriquez and Carlos Macias. I'm Ben Dotsei Malor.
Send us any feedback you have on these programmes.
Our e-mail address is unradio@un.org.
Thanks for listening. Goodbye.
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