UN Radio

Programme Number: 116
Week of: Sunday, 3rd September, 2006
Recording Date: Thursday, 7th September, 2006
Topical Issue(s):

" DARFUR, SUDAN & CHAD: As a defiant President Bashir and his Sudanese government reject a Un Security Council resolution authorising troops into Darfur, we examine how the insecurity and instability in Darfur is threatening the peace and stability of several neighbouring countries. We hear from the UN's top man in Chad, Kingsley Amaning.

" SLUM DWELLERS TAKE ACTION: Rose Molokoane is one of the most vocal and articulate international voices for people living in slums worldwide. In her own South African she has succeeded in getting her minister of housing to put more money into slum upgrading and development. Rose and her organisation are building many new homes themselves. At the recent World Urban Forum in Vancouver, Canada, she stressed that slum dwellers should not be viewed as stupid people but should be involved in the development of their own areas.

PRESENTER: This is United Nations Radio from New York.

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PRESENTER:
Greetings and welcome to UN and Africa. I'm Ben Dotsei Malor.

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PRESENTER:

As a tense deadlock develops between the government of Sudan and the international community over the deployment of UN peacekeepers to Darfur, we examine how the insecurity and instability from Darfur is already spreading far beyond borders of Sudan.

TEASER CLIP 1 - MR AMANING
"From Darfur they have crossed to Chad. They have gone across the border to Central African Republic and now they get into the borders between the Central African Republic and Cameroon. This should not be allowed to continue."

Plus, the vocal South African slum dweller, who is taking on the world.

TEASER 2 … ROSE MOLOKOANE:
We are fed up of homelessness, we are fed up of landlessness, we are fed up of poverty so we want to deal with these issues accordingly.

PRESENTER:
Rose Molokwane of South Africa.
More from her in just a moment. So, stay tuned as we examine what the UN is doing about Africa, for Africa or in Africa. UN and Africa!

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Sudan government rejects security council resolution authorising troops and the situation in Darfur gets worse

PRESENTER:

"A man-made catastrophe on an unprecedented scale." That's how the situation in Darfur is described by the UN Emergency Relief and Humanitarian Coordinator, Jan Egeland. Now, this catastrophe is even getting worse, as the government of President Omar Hassan El-Bashir rejected the UN Security Council Resolution 1706 that recently authorised the deployment of UN peacekeepers to Darfur, to take over from the current African Union force, AMIS. To complicate things further the African Union says its under-funded troops will withdraw from this troubled region at the end of September. The Sudanese government has stated that it is deploying its own troops to Darfur - a move that's bound to further frighten the local victims of the violence in the area. So, what is the next move now in resolving this deadlock? While this is being debated, a senior UN official in the region is warning that Darfur's problems are continuing to cause havoc beyond the borders of Sudan. Mr Kingsley Amaning is the UNDP Resident Representative and Humanitarian Coordinator in Sudan's neighbour, Chad, where more than 200,000 Darfurian refugees are being cared for. Mr Amaning was at UN headquarters recently briefing senior officials and diplomats. I caught up with him and asked him first about his major concern over Darfur?
INTERVIEW WITH MR KINGSLEY AMANING
"AMANING: We have serious problem of security in those areas we are operating. And this serious insecurity comes directly from the crisis in Darfur. As you know, the Darfur problem is not resolved in spite of the fact that there has been the partial peace agreement. The signs are not at all positive because we know that rebel movements are beginning to recruit and strengthen their military capacity and all indications show that they are likely to engage in military confrontation again. This is likely to create more refugees for Chad and is likely to also create various armed groups and militias who cross the border, attack our humanitarian personnel, seize vehicles from us, attack our compounds to steal money and also create enormous problems for innocent civilians who recently they have driven in forced displacement over a long distance in Chad.

MALOR: As someone, UN Humanitarian Coordinator for Chad who travels to many of these affected areas, paint the picture for us, how exactly the conflict in Darfur affects what you are trying to do in Chad helping even the Darfurian refugees. Explain this to us.

AMANING: You know, the first point that one needs to understand is that we have 210,000 refugees in twelve camps in the eastern border areas of Chad. Now each of the twelve camps contains between 15 to 20,000 refugees. We are operating in an environment where it is extremely difficult, I would say even unnatural to have more than 3,000 people living in hamlet in a village or even a town.

MALOR: It's a hostile geographical environment?

AMANING: It's a hostile environment. It is semi-savannah desert areas. It is very difficult to find woodland and therefore very difficult to find firewood.

MALOR: And water?

AMANING: And water is also a rarity. It is inhospitable. It is extremely hot during the summer, (the level drops) let's say about eight or nine months in the year. It is almost unbearable. And the land is certainly poor. Without water you can't do agriculture. Now in addition to this there are no infrastructures. There are no roads. There are no social services. So everything we give to the refugees has to be produced by us in terms of service. What is even worse, the border areas are porous. We have the same ethnic groups living on both sides of the border. And this being an area which we consider uncontrolled wild areas and therefore government administration is thin. It is even thinner now that the government has difficulty exporting commodities to Sudan and across Sudan to Egypt. So the authorities have difficulty getting taxes that would enable them to maintain the administrative structures. The security systems which should be in place normally have become extremely overstretched, to some extent I must say that have even been removed because the government itself has to organize military operations against their own political rebels.

MALOR: You are talking about President Idris Derby and his government in N'djamena?

AMANING: Exactly, exactly. They have to organize a response to a military sort of operations being carried out by rebel groups on the other side of the border with the intention to go all the way to N'djamena to overthrow the regime. And you mustn't forget that on 13 April we saw how far they could go when they attacked N'djamena. And therefore government military capacity is overstretched to fight their own war against rebels leaving therefore the civilians and us the humanitarian very lightly protected and therefore armed groups, bandits take advantage of this, attack us, rob us, take away our vehicles and cause great insecurity to the staff. Now I must mention that the situation has deteriorated to such an extent that such armed groups have organized themselves into some form of militias that go on rampage attack villages, steal their cattle and sheep and this seem to be in cahoots, not to say that they are probably the same group of people who have been operating in Sudan as the Janjaweed. We have them now entering into Chad committing the same atrocities as it has been reported in Sudan, forcing innocent women and children to flee and killing husbands and fathers of children who look after cattle or who keep cattle and making these women and their children leave their normal villages to go and seek refuge in other places. There have been families that have been dislocated more than three occasions. Each time they find a place where they can stay, they are pushed by another attack. They move on. When we provide assistance and they are just about to settle, yet again another attack and they have to move on. And therefore some have been displaced more than three occasions. This is really a problem for us.

MALOR: Tell me when you travel to these areas, you talk to many of these affected women and children mostly and also the men who have been spared by the Janjaweed and others, what kind of stories do they tell you that remain with you? What are they saying? Are they offering solutions? What do they tell you?

AMANING: In fact the first thing that sort of I retain in my mind and which worries me tremendously, they simply ask questions, why are these things happening to us? Why are we being targeted. Why are our husbands being killed. One woman said, I understand a week ago they attacked they killed my husband, they took away hundred cattle we have. Why did they come back the next day and kill my son? Why? These are very disturbing and disarming questions. You are not able to explain why a group of people would organize themselves, get all the logistic resources they need, attack other people and simply kill them. Do you need to kill 200 people to be able to ransack a few villages and steal cattle? In my opinion we have a situation where because there is no law and order, because government sort of presence is not felt, and that is the case across borders, I believe, people are beginning to return to a sort of life which not only doesn't make sense, it goes contrary to every form civilian.
MALOR: What sort of life are you talking about?

AMANING: I mean pure banditry, criminality, simple atrocities. I mean killing sometimes for the pleasure of it or for the little money that people would make. There are people who become armed, who have been using weapons for long and who are prepared to kill for whatever little money they would get or for whatever cause people would assign to them and give them money for. Unless we return these areas to civilization by ensuring that there is government presence or there is administration and that schools and other services that ensure more civilized life return to these areas, we are likely to see them extend further and further on.

MALOR: When you say further and further on, you are in Chad, your responsibility is for Chad, why are you so concerned about the Darfur situation. Yes you are dealing with Darfurians in Chad, you seem to have a bigger concern that goes beyond Chad.

AMANING: Sure, because yesterday we were saying the same about Darfur and we thought Chad was safe. Today we are talking about that in Chad. I know that a few days ago the government of Cameroon mentioned that the Bororo tribesmen have been attacked by a certain number of armed groups and about 15,000 of them have become refugees in Cameroon.

MALOR: You think this is an extension of the Darfur problem?

AMANING: Of course it is an extension. It is certainly an extension because it is on the same track. People, probably initially for political reasons or for whatever reason organize themselves to fight for a cause. The cause is not won. There are no real organizations to champion the cause the way it should be or structure the cause that they should be. They break up into armed bandits and armed groups attack people for their own survival, want to make money out of it. All this is done with impunity. They go on and on ravaging and rampaging all these areas. And they go on and on. From Darfur they have crossed to Chad. They have gone across the border to Central African Republic and now they get into the borders between the Central African Republic and Cameroon. This should not be allowed to continue.

MALOR: That is taken, that is agreed. Briefly, as we end this interview, what is the way out right now? What is the solution or what are the solutions?

AMANING: I think we all have to accept that we are each other's keepers and that we have a responsibility to ensure as United Nations, as the world community, that there is at least a minimum of standards that have to be adhered to. I think that is what the organization was set up for and I think that is the hallmark of the civilization we are all championing now in the world. We should not allow any part of this world to go through a situation where human rights are clearly and massively abused without any reaction from anybody. And I think this should be a major concern for all of us. What is happening is happening because we seem not to be able to intervene and when we are intervening we seem not to be able to do it in a way that it makes the impact that we require in the lives of ordinary people. I think the people in the villages are asking a simple question: Do we have somebody, any group in charge to ensure that at least they can live descent safe lives.

MALOR: But the problem for the United Nations, for Secretary-Genera Kofi Annan for the international community right now is the defiance and the refusal of the government of President Al Bashir in Sudan to agree that African Union peacekeepers in Darfur could be replaced within the next few months by United Nations peacekeepers. That is a major stumbling block now isn't it?

AMANING: Well it seems to me that from what I hear Sudan thinks the problem can be resolved in a different way. I hear recently they are proposing that they want to put thousands of Sudanese forces in those areas to secure Darfur. Maybe that is something should have done long time ago. I do appreciate very much their goodwill and the fact that they are waking up to that responsibility and they think something needs to be done and be done fast. My fear is that it is too late because it is not just the question of having the presence of troops there, it is also a question of having the type of troops that will inspire the confidence and trust of the people who live there.

MALOR: The affected people in Darfur don't trust their government to protect them.

AMANING: I think that is the key message they have been giving. They are saying when all these things were happening they did not enjoy the protection of government. Of course if they enjoyed the protection of government they would not have fled to become refugees. They would not have been living, two million of them in displaced. They wouldn't have done that. And therefore the question is not just now restoring military presence or even government administration. It is a question of whether or not that effort, what is being put in place will inspire the confidence and the trust of the people so that they can go back to normal life. I think that is the key issue. If the Sudanese government becomes, in my opinion sufficiently sensitized, on the fact that it is not just military presence which is required, but it is a question of bringing back trust, we might be able to agree on type of forces we need to put, a combination of UN and other forces, a combination of UN administration and other forces. For the brief moment such confidence will need to be restored. After all I think if the vision and the objectives are clear which I believe, in summary they are surely to help the Sudanese government resolve this crisis of confidence, resolve this crisis of insecurity, ensure that people trust again their government and are prepared to go about their daily lives in peace and in security and that all we are trying to do is to help the government return that vision to normalcy. I wouldn't see any difficulty for all of us to come together to do what is right and effective for the moment.

MALOR: And finally as UN Humanitarian Coordinator and UNDPE Resident Representative in Chad, in just about three points. Let's say in three points, tell me what you would like to see happening regarding Chad, regarding the Darfur problem in Sudan?

AMANING: I would like to see all countries working together for the same purpose of security Darfur. I see all countries working together for the purpose of providing humanitarian assistance for those who have been affected in Darfur, living in Sudan or in Darfur itself. I would want to see us work together now for the solution, real solution of the problem. The problem is simply to secure Darfur, bring confidence, help people to reintegrate back into their communities and give the communities the minimum they need to be able to start life again. That should not be too difficult for any well meaning, right thinking people, leading countries or leading whatever organization to be able to arrive at."

PRESENTER
Mr Kingsley Amaning, the UNDP Resident Representative and UN Humanitarian Coordinator in Chad.

SLUM DWELLER FROM SOUTH AFRICA, ROSE MOLOKOANE

More and more people across the world are moving from rural areas into cities and with rapid urbanisation there is the worrying growth of slums, together with the problems of poverty, poor sanitation and many other ills. There are currently one billion people living in slums across the world. In sub-Saharan Africa, the problem is more serious with slum dwellers making up about 70 per cent of the urban population. But some of these slum dwellers, like Rose Molokwane of South Africa, are taking action and taking their fate into their own hands to make things better. Rose was one of the most popular speakers during the recent World Urban Forum in Vancouver, Canada. There I met her and asked her first why her organisation is called FED-UP…

INTERVIEW WITH ROSE MOLOKWANE
"Molokoane: Initially we were called African Homeless People's Federation. And then we realized that by being homeless we wont have any change in our live. Then we said we really have to have change. That is why we said we have to call ourselves FED up so that we can get rid of the problems that are taking our lives. We are fed up of homelessness, we are fed up of Rentlessness, we are fed up of poverty so we want to deal with these issues accordingly.

Mahlor: And how is your working with FED Up? Who is listening to you? What are you able to achieve so far?

Molokoane: What we have achieved already right now, is the partnership with our ministry of housing. Mrs. Lindy was the sulu. She has opened her door widely to us, she has accepted what we are doing. Because we have shown her that in the communities, we are able to organize ourselves, we are focusing mostly on women, not leaving men behind, we are all working together and we are saving a little money with the aim of addressing the 3 issues I've read you. So she agreed and said "I'm opening my doors wide for you to come in and discuss with me". So she also have opened her ears to listen to what we are telling her until such time she pledged an amount of 235 million Rent towards our housing delivery as the poor our selves, we are building those houses ourselves and then we are showing her that if we are together organized, we can do better things.

Mahlor: Tell us about yourself. Your background, your still dwelling in a slum, you still live in a slum. Tell us about yourself, let us know who Rose Molokoane is.

Molokoane: I was born in a very tiny informal settlement called Ogazie meaning old location. It's an 85 year old township. I was born in that township in 1960.

Mahlor: Where is that?

Molokoane: It is in the northwestern part of Pertora which is the capital city of South Africa. And then my mother died when I was 10 years old. And then I had eight brothers to look after and one sister. So it means automatically means that in my tenth year I was a mother to nine people. So you can imagine the struggle I have grown of. My father was working as a laborer earning an amount of 21 Rent a week. Then he has to take care of the entire family.

Mahlor: 21 Rent a week, that is about how many dollars? Or how many pounds?

Molokoane: You can divide it with six dollars.

Mahlor: So we are talking about just between three and four dollars a week?

Molokoane: Yes, so with that three or four dollars a week, he has to buy food for us, clothing for us, pay school fees for our education and maintaining the house, because by that time, we were paying rent to the municipality. So I have to go to school, I have to look after my brothers, I have to look after my younger brother because when my mom died, my youngest brother was only 3 years, so I have to become a mother to a three year old child.

Mahlor: And what kind of conditions did you have around where you lived? Are you still living in the same place?

Molokoane: Yes, I already built an eight room house for myself through this FED UP organization.

Mahlor: Within that same community?

Molokoane: Within the very same informal settlement. It was faced with eviction from the municipality, but because we have organized this community together we have agreed amongst each other that we are not going to move out of that township because we were born there and we have nurtured that area, we are not going to let anyone of us to be evicted. So we fought for that area. Firstly it has changed many times. The municipality has changed its name many times, they say it is a health hazard area, it's a no go area, it's an emergency camp so we have to be moved. But we said to them, it is because you didn't give us chance to change the community, you didn't give us chance to show you that we can do it, because you didn't give us security of Kenya. We fought that until we got security of Kenya and today the community where I stay from, it was a packet system community. Today I'm flushing a toilet, I've got electricity in my community, many people are now changing, they are building their own houses, (can't make it out) it is a very beautiful place to stay.

Mahlor: But at this rate, you will not be qualified to be called a slum dweller. You have flushing toilet, you have a good house in the same informal community. You are advancing.

Molokoane: I will remain being a slum dweller because, it's because this slum dwelling that I am where I am. And then because I've created my organization into a process and not a project. So it means what I have achieved I have to duplicate it to other slum dwellers. I have to replicate it to other communities. So if I say now I'm better, I should be better to stay at home, I will feel guilty, because we are saying, we don't empower individuals we empower the whole community. So until we get rid of all the slums by ourselves, I wont rest and I wont sleep.

Mahlor: I know it's a bit chilly here, your dressed in very beautiful South African clothing, I don't want to take to much of your time. Just two more questions. I was in this meeting this morning, at this world event, at this meeting you were given such applause I didn't even see it given to some of the most prominent people who came here. You said some significant things, "we may be poor but we are not hopeless", "we may be poor but we are not stupid" where does all of this come from?

Molokoane: Because people are taking us for granted. They think that if you are poor you can't think. They think that if your poor it means you don't have anything at all. But what we want to prove to them is that yes we are poor but we are not hopeless, because we can think, we've got our natural skills, G-d has created us to think, to come up with ideas that can better our lives. So I would like to send this message to all the people that says slum people are not good people. As they come to our communities, get out of your offices, visit us at our communities then you will see wonders. You will see the positive picture of what you are referring to as a slum.

Mahlor: Quickly, people who live in slums and not have relatives, I myself have gone through areas that maybe you could classify as slums, they become concerned with day to day living they are struggling against poverty, they are struggling against finding money for food, trying to clean the environments, difficult conditions, how are they going to get the chance or the time or the energy to engage in the kind of advocacy, the kind of campaign you are involved in? What advice would you give other people who feel caught up in their immediate problems and are not able to raise their voices?

Molokoane: They should just come together. And one amongst all of them will be a spokesperson like me. They should give their issues forward to the table and a group of people should take it to the municipality. Not all of us are being given a talent of talking. Not all of us are being given the talent to negotiate. But within that community you'll find, that is why I say a slum area has got a lot of wonders, has got different talents. So if others are busy sweeping at my floor I'm busy talking on our behalf not on my behalf as an individual. But that's why I say if we are well organized and especially if we focus on women. Women are the real organized people because the word woman means well organized man. W stands for well, o stands for organized and the last three alphabet stands for man.

Mahlor: You don't have something against men like me do you?

Molokoane: Because you are so well organized, because of my energy and my health. In my thinking I've washed your share

Mahlor: You think my wife dressed me up?

Molokoane: Yes, she has cooked for you this morning to get the nice breakfast. You are so beautiful because of your wife. To every successful man there's a woman. So I think we have to consider that in the community, in the slums. The issue of woman are more advanced then the issue of man. So lets acknowledge that.

Malor: In your last word from this world empower forum.

Molokoane: I say to this world forum that Millennium Development Goals goes are the keys. As the people from the slum areas, we are the keys for your achievement . . . We are saying lets try and enhance together. Don't kick us out, don't ignore us. Come to us, listen to us, have an understanding of what we are doing. Support the initiative that we have already started, then we will achieve the better cities for all. "

PRESENTER
Rose Molokwane, a member of the South African Federation of the Urban and Rural Poor FED-UP and a Coordinator of Shack Dwellers International for Africa.
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PRESENTER:
… And that's how we end this edition of UN and Africa - it's my last edition for now, because I'm leaving UN Headquarters in New York in a few days time for Liberia to work in the UN peacekeeping mission, UNMIL.
UN and Africa continues strong for your benefit under the guidance of the UN's Chief of Radio, Ransford Cline-Thomas and producer Derrick Mbatha.
I'm Ben Dotsei Malor, with Nyi Nyi Teza and Hermes Rivera.
Thank you or listening and for your support.
Au revoir. Goodbye, for now.
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