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05 September 2006 – NPR: Talk of the Nation
Neal Conan, host:
This is Talk of the Nation . I'm Neal Conan in Washington.
Earlier this year, it looked as if an agreement had been reached that might just bring peace to Darfur, the western province of Sudan that's suffered from both rebellion and from a government counter-attack that many characterize as genocide. Numbers are impossible to confirm, but as many as 450,000 may have been killed with two million more made homeless. Seven thousand troops under the auspices of the African Union arrived to help stabilize the situation in Darfur and to assist the delivery of humanitarian aide. Now it looks as if it may all come unraveled.
The Sudanese government sent thousands of regular soldiers to reinforce its Janjiweed militias in Darfur and resumed combat against two rebel groups who rejected the peace agreement. Aide workers found themselves caught up in the fighting, 12 have been killed in recent months. Then, last week, the United Nations Security Council approved a peacekeeping force more than 22,000 strong to replace AU forces, if the Sudanese government agreed. It has not. Instead, President Omar Hasan al-Bashir ordered AU troops out by the end of this month. If they leave, most aide workers would likely follow...
...But first, the new crisis in Darfur. In a few minutes we'll be joined by the assistant secretary of state for Africa and by the deputy secretary general of the United Nations, and we want to hear from you....
...The United Nations Security Council approved a peacekeeping force for Darfur, but thus far, Sudan's government has refused to accept it. To explain what the United Nations is doing about this, we go now to New York where Mark Malloch Brown joins us by phone. He's the Deputy Secretary General of the United Nations.
Good to speak with you again, sir.
Mark Malloch Brown: (Deputy Secretary-General, United Nations): Well, thank you.
Neal Conan: Can you tell us how the U.N. is responding to the news from Khartoum and from Darfur, for that matter.
Mark Malloch Brown: Well, with great concern, the Secretary General - who is himself in the Middle East - called me yesterday to ask me to make sure that the Security Council - he hoped they would meet as quickly as possible to take stock of this. Because, you know, this is quite a setback in that we've always made it clear that the sheer nature of the mission - a deployment in a place the size of France, in the middle of nowhere, in the sense that its in the middle of Africa and there is no obvious logistics support nearby - means that this must be done with the consent of Sudan. And, in fact, more broadly, peacekeeping always needs to be done with the consent of all sides to the conflict, otherwise it's not keeping the peace - it's trying to enforce one. And so, you know, this - we've got to persuade Sudan to change its mind is the bottom line on this.
Neal Conan: And how is that going to be done do you think?
Mark Malloch Brown: Well, I think to start with, a lot of diplomatic pressure not just important, though it is from the U.S. and Western countries that's vital, but it needs to be supplemented by pressure from China, from – by pressure from Sudan's Islamic and African neighbors. Sudan just has to be – have a full understanding of the broad costs to its political and democratic standing if it presses on with this, but I think the other thing that needs to be done is we need to talk to the Sudanese, sit down with them again, as we have, as the U.S. has, and others, to try and find a way forward which tries to address their concerns without compromising on the basic principle here, which is these desperate people need international protection now and we've got to find a way to deploy.
Neal Conan: When you speak of Sudan's African neighbors, who are you speaking of?
Mark Malloch Brown: Well, Nigeria, South Africa, a number of towns in the area, a number of countries that's engaged quite often on this. I mean, we need to get them to do so in a more concerted way and perhaps with the North African neighbors as well – notably Egypt with Islamic neighbors such as Saudi Arabia. This is – we've got to break out of the way in which this is a moment, to some extent, characterized as a kind of a Western versus Sudan issue. It's got to be seen as an international community versus Sudan issue if we're to be successful.
Neal Conan: Does that mean incorporating the Arab League as well?
Mark Malloch Brown: It does. And the Organization of Islamic States, as well - Islamic Conference. I mean, we've got to get as broad a coalition of diplomatic support as possible for this intervention.
Neal Conan: We're speaking with Mark Malloch Brown, Deputy Secretary General of the United Nations. If you'd like to join us: 800-989-8255, 800-989-TALK. E-mail is Maryland.
MICHAEL (Caller): Hi. My question is for Mr. Brown.
Neal Conan: Yes, go ahead.
MICHAEL: I've been taking a couple of courses at Towson University and what we've noticed a lot through some of the documentation that we've been studying is that the U.N. has been changing its policy from simply listening to (unintelligible) national sovereignty, and now there's a change into believing that intervention forces should go in if it's an issue of personal security. And so my question is: why is it that the U.N. would be taking such a step back by not going forth and trying to take care of individuals that really do need help? I'll take my question off the air.
Neal Conan: Thanks for the call, Michael.
Mark Malloch Brown: Well Michael, I think it's a very good question because you're right, we adopted this doctrine of the responsibility to protect, which is when there is mass human rights abuse in a country which the government is seen as either being in some part a cause of, or at least is not stopping, then the international community has an obligation to intervene. And that new doctrine was proudly adopted less than a year ago and this is the first big test case of it. And so far the results are not what one would wish for because the fact is, the international community, when it chooses to intervene through the U.N., that means it's going to put up soldiers, troops – it's going to kind of exert the political will to do it. And, you know, that political will has been uneven.
Out of Washington, there's been pretty consistent condemnation of Darfur, but not out of many other capitals. And what there is no evidence of, out of any capital, is a willingness to put up the troops necessary to do the job because the U.N. doesn't have a standing army of its on. The U.N. is the troops it borrows from its member states and, you know, at the moment nobody's going to put their troops up unless there's an iron-cast agreement with Sudan that they're not going to come under attack from Sudanese government. So the fine words of this very important doctrine are proving very hard to implement.
Neal Conan: I'm afraid we're going to have to leave it there. We have to take a short break. We'll come back with Mark Malloch Brown, the Deputy United Nations Secretary General, and more of your calls. This is the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.
Neal Conan: This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington. We're discussing the ongoing violence and the deepening humanitarian crisis in Darfur and what the U.N. and the U.S. are trying to do to help. In a few minutes, Jendayi Frazer, the U.S. secretary of state for African affairs, will join us. Right now our guest is Mark Malloch Brown, the deputy secretary-general of the United Nations.
And of course, you're welcome to join us as well. If you have direct experience in Darfur, if you have questions about what's happening there and why, give is a call: 800-989-8255. That's 800-989-TALK, and the e-mail address is
And Mark Malloch Brown, there was a story in today's Washington Post which quoted observers and members of the African Union Force in Darfur and analysts as saying it was their belief that what's happening is that the Sudanese government is trying to get on with its offensive, crush the rebellion and get out before U.N. forces have time to deploy. Is that your perception?
Mark Malloch Brown: Well, we hope it's not true but there has been a massive movement of soldiers and armament into the region, which certainly gives every indication that some kind of military operation may be close. And you know, that's why we're so anxious that the Security Council, you know, sits down to discuss this as quickly as possible and sees what we can do to counter it.
Now, Jendayi Frazer, who's your next guest on this program has just recently been in Khartoum in a very important diplomatic effort to try and head this off and get this thing back on track towards a U.N. deployment. And I think, you know, it's not too late for diplomacy here, and that goal has got to be to persuade the Sudanese that we, the U.N., should be allowed to initially buttress and strengthen the African Union Force and then subsequently to replace it - although undoubtedly keeping many elements of it and re-hatting them as part of a larger U.N. force - and that this is the way to achieve Sudan's objectives of getting political peace in Darfur and that an effort to do this by a unilateral military action would both be a breach of existing Security Council resolution; a breach of the political agreement it negotiated for Darfur and in Abuja; and a complete breach of Sudan's relations with much of the rest of the international community. And they've got to come to understand the costs of what they may indeed be contemplating doing.
Neal Conan: And where are those costs being spelled out to them?
Mark Malloch Brown: Well, in the Security Council that they've not necessarily been willing to listen; in many conversations and correspondence between Kofi Annan, our secretary general, and President al-Bashir of Sudan; and in many other contacts at different levels by both the U.N. and the diplomats of our member states with their Sudanese counterparts. But, you know, at the moment, frankly, a lot of what we're saying is falling on deaf ears.
Neal Conan: Let's get another call. This one from Missy(ph) in Fergus Falls, Minnesota.
MISSY (Caller): Hi. I was a Peace Corps volunteer in Abeche, Chad in the late 80s and early 90s, and Abeche is on the border with Sudan. And I know that France has an air base there and I'm wondering why France isn't asked to help patrol or monitor that border of Darfur with their Mirage jets.
Mark Malloch Brown: Well, look. France is, as you rightly say – I mean, there is an air base there, they're still there. But they're very anxious - as much for their situation in Chad as any prospective situation in Sudan - that they not use that to sort of intervene on their own in the affairs of Sudan. They want to do any support they do through a U.N. deployment, so nobody can say this is France messing around in the internal affairs of an African country. I mean, everybody needs that blue U.N. flag to protect them against the charge that they're somehow playing politics in Africa. And so getting this overall U.N. deployment - of which French support can be part - in place is critical.
Neal Conan: Missy, what was that border area like when you were there?
MISSY: Well, when I was there we – Actually, Chad had – there was a coup d'etat in 1990 and actually we were moved out of Abeche, and I'm not sure that they still post Peace Corps volunteers there anymore.
Neal Conan: Okay Missy. Thanks very much for the call. We appreciate your time.
MISSY: Thank you.
Neal Conan: Bye-bye.
MISSY: Can you – Mark Malloch Brown, this is a remote area of Sudan. Of course, the largest country in terms of size in Africa, south of Egypt. Its eastern border is on the Red Sea. This is in the western part of the country. If you could speak just for a moment about the logistical difficulties of operating in this part of Africa.
Mark Malloch Brown: Well, you know, it is right – you know, it's landlocked. It's a long way from ports or anything like that. You have to fly everything in. And the place itself is so large that our whole vision of peacekeeping there is that we would have a highly mobile force that could be moved around by fixed-wing planes and helicopters because if we tried to just carpet the ground with enough troops to keep the peace everywhere it would swallow up tens of thousands of troops. So hence the idea of a very mobile group of force that could be moved quickly to where there was trouble.
But this very long supply line, either through Sudan, which would be the likely route, or otherwise through Chad on its border, you know, it really means that no military plan is going to take this on without a fairly high assurance that the basic mission of the force is not going to be challenged – that the military confrontations are going to be limited to individual incidents with those resisting arrest or whatever. Because, you know, the supply line is just so easy to cut if you're there without a basic political agreement with the parties.
Neal Conan: This is another caller. Meshack. Meshack is calling us from South Bend, Indiana.
MESHACK (Caller): Hi.
Neal Conan: Hi.
MESHACK: I am from Kenya and one of the concerns I have about Sudan is the fact that (unintelligible) which just incorporated into the government, has not had a chance to make major policy changes in this government. And I know that would really affect the Sudanese government mindset into Darfur.
Neal Conan: What Meshack is talking about was the long-running rebellion in Southern Sudan, which was resolved a few years ago. The southern Sudanese were incorporated into the Sudanese government, but Meshack says their point of view as people who've been long in rebellion has yet to be reflected. Mark Malloch Brown, can the southern Sudanese – the followers of the late John Garang – can they be brought into this?
Mark Malloch Brown: Well obviously there are now certain Sudanese, including the foreign minister, the government who are key negotiators on Darfur. And I think we'd all hoped that this new government of national unity would take a much more balanced approach to Darfur and I think, in fact, there are splits within the government and some people being more willing to accommodate than others. And of course the irony is, in the south there is indeed a U.N. peacekeeping force helping keep the peace there without any apparent, sort of, political difficulty or reaction to it, which is what makes so ironic and ultimately unjustifiable the argument that you couldn't have the U.N. in Darfur.
But I think there is one key point to be understood, which is: Darfur came so quickly on the heels of the ending of the rebellion in the south that the promised new aid and lifting of sanctions that was to come to the south after that war ended, didn't come because suddenly Sudan was once more at odds with the world over Darfur. So the Sudanese government in Khartoum feels it was betrayed by the international community, and the promises given to it to make peace in the south were not kept. And that had undoubtedly hardened its attitude towards the west.
MESHACK: Don't you think, though, (unintelligible) the western part of Sudan is not a Christian area plays a significant role, because you know, the south was Christian and supported by mainstream Christian charter in the U.S. And we know the Lost Boys program was brought to bring the southern Sudanese refugees from the south into the U.S. Do you think the fact that the west is a Muslim and a black area is one of the reasons why this Darfur conflict doesn't bring anything into the picture(ph) of the west?
Mark Malloch Brown: Well, look. I mean, the south conflict went on for close to 20 years, and the growing support for the rebels in the south from Christians in the U.S. grew over that time, it wasn't born instantly. You're seeing similarly not, you know, a tremendous protest movement building in the U.S. today against what is happening in Darfur. I myself have spoken at a number of meetings of grassroots civil society organizations in the states who've taken out the cause of Darfur in a very, very big way. But, you know, I think it is the case that it is a Muslim on Muslim attacks in the west and, you know, that should at the very least mean that Muslim countries should share the outrage of Americans against what is happening in Darfur and should help broaden this coalition of opposition beyond the U.S. and other Western countries to being a much bigger, more international condemnation.
Neal Conan: If indeed that can be done in time. Meshack, thanks very much for the call. Finally, one e-mail question. This from Nancy in Detroit. For three years, the United States, the United Nations, any number of other entities have called the Darfur situation urgent. How long can one say something is urgent before the word loses all meaning?
Mark Malloch Brown: I think it's a very – I mean I share the sentiment of that e-mail entirely. I can't tell you that even as a veteran of Lebanon and everything else that's been going on in the world in recent months and years, you know, Darfur is the one which keeps me awake most at night because I feel so frustrated at the inability of the international community to back up its words with real deeds in terms of, you know, getting a new security in place for the victims there.
And, you know, we can't have – I mean it's a time now of decision. The Security Council and the international community has to push Sudan to accept. And if Sudan won't accept, then we have to find other ways of achieving this mission. We cannot turn our backs on the people of Darfur and just utter these platitudes and not back them up.
Neal Conan: Mark Malloch Brown, thanks very much for your time. We appreciate it.
Mark Malloch Brown: Thank you.
Neal Conan: Mark Malloch Brown, Deputy Secretary-General to the United Nations. He joined us today by phone from his office at the U.N. in New York City.
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