CHARLIE ROSE: ...Jean-Marie Guéhenno is here. He has been the head of the United Nations peacekeeping operations since 2000. The United Nations has almost 100,000 troops, police and civilians, deployed on 18 missions worldwide. Some are enforcing peace agreements. This is happening in places like the Congo, Kosovo and the southern Sudan. Other peacekeepers have been sent to stop conflicts. This was done in Lebanon. The U.N. has also taken a bigger role where the African Union lacks the resources. The Sudanese government is being pressured to allow hybrid U.N./ A.U. force into Darfur.

The United Nations peacekeepers are now in more places than any country apart from the United States. There is talk about additional changes to create a more muscular international response.

I am pleased to have Jean-Marie Guéhenno on this program for the first time. Welcome.

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: Thank you.

CHARLIE ROSE: Nice to have you here. Just to read that suggests a considerable responsibility on your part. Tell me as you see it today what is the most challenging role for you of all those that I have listed, so we can kind of walk through them and see what the United Nations is trying to do in its most hottest conflicts?

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: Well, I think the two major challenges that - that come to my mind first is Democratic Republic of Congo, because that’s a place as big as Europe and we have 17,000 troops there. So, big challenge. Huge progress with elections last year, but it’s not over yet.

CHARLIE ROSE: What are the U.N. troops doing there?

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: Well, they have been stabilizing half of the country. When you used to have a place which was lawless, where you had militias, where you had millions of people dying because they didn`t have access to basic services, we have stabilized that. We have disarmed tens and tens of thousands of combatants. And now what`s the next challenge is really to have a state that is rebuilt from the bottom up. An army, a police that are reassurance to the people and not a threat.

CHARLIE ROSE: How long do you think you`ll be there?

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: I think we need to be there a few more years. And that’s one of the challenge, frankly, of the international community. There’s a sense sometimes that the election comes and that’s over. Let`s pack up and leave. That mistake was made in Haiti several times. And that’s - that’s very dangerous. Once the election has happened, a new phase starts. It’s not the end. It’s - it’s the beginning really of a new phase.

CHARLIE ROSE: OK. Beyond the Congo?

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: Sudan.

CHARLIE ROSE: Sudan?

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: Sudan. I mean, it’s - it’s on my mind every day. What`s happening in Darfur is totally unacceptable. And it’s - it’s a tragedy of enormous proportions. We want really the political will to be there to change the situation.

CHARLIE ROSE: People have been sitting at tables like this from the U.S. Congress, from the United Nations. You have been saying this for a while. Why is this taking so long when so many people go there and come back and say it’s unacceptable?

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: It’s political will. Political will in Khartoum. There has to be a realization that there has to be a strategic shift. Realize that this tragedy of Darfur will not be solved without a strong involvement of the international community.

CHARLIE ROSE: OK, but I mean, just tell me -- the question is political will by the Sudanese, but what if that political will does not come, as it has not so far? Can you stand by and allow that many people ...

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: I think there has to be also political will of the international community to - to be very clear on what the expectations are. And there, I think there are different views. For instance on the political process, you have the rebels, you have the government of Sudan. There has to be a unified message of the international community that the political process has to move forward.

I mean, recently we had made some progress. The secretary-general appointed Jan Eliasson, the former foreign minister of Sweden, and Salim Salim, the former secretary of the African Union, who is working for the African Union. Together, they are working on really pushing the envelope to have a political agreement. That’s - that’s a good sign.

But what is not a good sign is the situation on the ground, which is still very bad. We see reports of violence every day. I think there has to be justice. I mean, today, we had the announcement by the International Criminal Court that two senior officials are summoned by the International Criminal Court. I think that that is something that is also important. Justice is a foundation of peace.

CHARLIE ROSE: There was also Kosovo. Is that helpful?

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: Well, Kosovo is one of the big challenges. One of the big challenges in 2007, because we have been there since the events of 1999. There is great impatience in Kosovo to come to a final resolution. There has to be a compromise between the Serb minority and the Albanian majority. There is a very sound proposal on the table developed by a former president of Finland, Ahtisaari. There is going to be a need for a big push of the international community there too. It’s again; it’s an issue of political will.

If there is a sense in the Security Council that there are differing views, that there is not unity, that will weaken our hand.

CHARLIE ROSE: As a general rule, how is the United Nations -- because the Russians are there, Chinese are there, and in so many of these difficult problems -- without suggesting who is always right or who is always wrong -- they can’t seem to work together. They can’t seem to come to a more effective initiative.

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: Well, to be - to be fair -- I mean, most of the time, the council comes together. I don’t think we would have made the progress we have made in the past six years if the council had not been united on Democratic Republic of Congo, on Liberia, on Haiti, to mention just three major missions. There was unity in the council. Now, of course, when there are differing views, I mean, that’s not ...

CHARLIE ROSE: Not unity .

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: . that stops us.

CHARLIE ROSE: . not unity on Iran, for example.

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: No.

CHARLIE ROSE: May not be unity on Kosovo.

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: But the strength of the -- the weakness of the United Nations is also its strength. That is, the United Nations is the one place in the world where everybody comes together. And whenever the Security Council manages to get unity, then it has enormous legitimacy.

Of course, it’s always easier to work with like-minded countries, one particular part of the world. But when you do that, you lose something in terms of legitimacy. So it’s hard to find that unity. You have to -- to work at it. But when you get it, then it’s an enormous asset.

CHARLIE ROSE: But people who look at Darfur today and think about Rwanda know that everybody involved at the time of Rwanda, at the worst times of the massacres has apologized and engaged in the mea culpa, whether it’s Bill Clinton, the president of the United States, or whether it’s Kofi Annan, the secretary-general of the United Nations who was then in charge of peacekeeping. And this -- yet, yet you wonder whether there is the political will to do something about Darfur, even though there’s the political memory of Rwanda.

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: I think the memory of Rwanda hounds and should hound everybody. I think it’s our duty as the U.N. official to really tell the truth about the situation in Darfur. And the truth is not something that anybody would want to condone. I think it’s our duty to tell the Security Council what they need to know, not what they want to hear. And then I do hope that in the Security Council there will be sufficient unity to - to really come to resolution of the situation in Darfur because we can’t wait anymore.

CHARLIE ROSE: Do you think that voice will be heard? We can’t wait anymore?

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: Well, I think in the council today, when I look at the discussions, I think there’s a sense that this tragedy of Darfur is not only a tragedy for Darfur. It is a tragedy that is now spilling over. We have problems in Chad. We have problems in the Central African Republic. It’s -- it has the potential, really, to - to destroy a big part of Africa.

And so, all the progress that has been made in Africa with the end of conflict in the Democratic Republic of Congo, with the peace in Liberia, with the peace in Sierra Leone, all that is overshadowed by this continuing tragedy in Darfur.

What we see in Darfur in a way is that all the polarization of the Middle East is entering into Africa. And that’s something that must not happen.

CHARLIE ROSE: Somalia. What’s happening in Somalia?

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: Well, Somalia is one of those places -- we were in Somalia, as you know, in the `90s. And that ended very badly. And we learned there one fundamental lesson .

CHARLIE ROSE: Ended badly for the United States .

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: It ended badly for everybody and for Somalia, which ever since hasn’t regained its balance. And we learned, I think the hard way, that peacekeeping -- it works if there is a peace to keep. In Somalia today, the challenge is to have a solid political agreement between the Somalis. If you don’t have that, it’s going to be extremely difficult for any force of any kind, whether it’s an African Union force or a United Nations force, to really stabilize the country so there’s a lot at stake there.

CHARLIE ROSE: When you look at most of the conflicts you see -- we’ve referred to Africa so far. What is at the heart? Is there a common denominator about what is at the heart of these conflicts? Is it a conflict over turf? Over power? Over religion? Over something else?

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: I think in many -- well, there, each conflict has its specificities, but I -- so I don’t think there’s one answer to your question. But maybe there is one common characteristic, is that in many countries after the end of the Cold War, the notion of the national identity, what would hold together all the people in those countries, that was in question. And the strategic challenge for us is that if you let a country drift into chaos, if you let the state essentially disappear, it can be hijacked. That’s what happened in Afghanistan in the `90s. And I think there, we see that peacekeeping is just -- it’s not just sort of humanitarian duty. It’s a strategic priority today. If you let that happen, if you let a country fall into chaos, then it can become a haven for all kinds of very dangerous people, and can - and it can lead to 9/11.

CHARLIE ROSE: Some suggest that might very well be what happens if the United States withdraws from Iraq.

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: Well, in Iraq, I think as in any -- and the U.N. is involved in Iraq. We -- Sergio de Mello was there, and .

CHARLIE ROSE: The great leader of the Unites Nations tragically killed.

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: Yes, and he did, I think, a fantastic job at the beginning the Iraq, U.N. presence, international presence.

What we see today is that the work, the key priority in Iraq is also to have a political process whereby the Iraqis are reconciled. I mean, the U.N. in support of -- I mean, the Iraqi government is doing its best there. But this needs to be -- to go, to go further. This needs also to be in a regional environment. We have seen in other places that if you - the region has to support the process.

CHARLIE ROSE: If the Iraqi government does not make the progress you are talking about and the sectarian violence continues and the United States believes that its most recent surge is not working and decides to withdraw, I mean, are we looking in your judgment at the same kind of failed state that harbors all kinds of people with violent aims?

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: Well, I do - I do hope that there will be another outcome than the one you describe, because I think that when you look at the situations in other places, when you look at - when the partition occurred between Pakistan and India, for instance, this was an immense, immense human suffering. So I think when one looks at Iraq, one has to be very careful not to play with the notion that you can just reorganize countries, let countries split. I think every effort has to be made to stabilize Iraq through a solid political process. I think giving up on that would be extremely dangerous.

CHARLIE ROSE: So, you wouldn’t favor some kind of federal - federal structure that was without a strong central government?

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: Well, the internal arrangements of Iraq, that’s for the Iraqis to decide. But I think everything has to be done to keep Iraq together.

CHARLIE ROSE: What about Afghanistan? You’re going there this week or next week. What do you expect to find?

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: Well, in Afghanistan - we have accompanied Afghanistan ever since the beginning. There has - and that’s why the U.N. has great credibility in Afghanistan, because we were there in hard times and we accompanied the whole bond process, the Loya Jirga, the constitution, the elections.

Today all that is - is in some -- at some risk, to be frank, because there is ...

CHARLIE ROSE: A resurgence of the Taliban.

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: There is a resurgence of the violence. And we need in Afghanistan, as in other peace operations, we need to make sure that the political contract in Afghanistan is consolidated, that the Afghan supports -- there’s a real deal between the various players in Afghanistan, and that requires efforts at the local level, and that requires efforts in Kabul, and that requires efforts in the - in the region.

CHARLIE ROSE: Do you see the willingness of member states of the United Nations, Germany, whoever it might be, the United States is there, Britain is there, to continue their commitment?

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: I think everybody understands that the stakes are high. I think where we have to do better is that the Afghans are -- after the election, after they had their first parliament -- and I was there in December 2005 when the new parliament was inaugurated -- there was enormous expectations that now this was going to be a new life. And they haven’t seen enough progress in terms of the basic services -- the school, the health, roads; the international community could have done better. And I think we need to intensify that effort.

CHARLIE ROSE: In terms of the kinds of services that directly connect with the people?

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: Exactly. And that’s, you know, that’s the situation that we see in many peace operations. We, the peacekeepers, we provide a window of opportunity. We stabilize a situation. We create an environment in which a political process can be consolidated, but that window at some point closes if it’s not used to solidify the politics and also to make a difference in terms of the lives of the people. That’s something I see in Haiti, for instance.

CHARLIE ROSE: And where is Haiti going?

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: Haiti, we’re very - I mean, I think we are in -- really going through a period where we were stabilizing the security situation. We are developing operations in the slums to really fight the gang violence, so we are creating that - that space of security. It’s not -- we are not quite there yet, but I think the kind of operation where we combine military and police in Haiti is quite innovative and it’s delivering some results.

But now the tough part is making sure that the people in the slums, the gang members who have been disarmed, that they will have a job. That’s a challenge that we find in many of our peace operations. People are ready to abandon violence, but they want to make a living. And that peace building aspect, which has to go hand in hand with peacekeeping, that’s where sometimes really the effort is lagging.

CHARLIE ROSE: It’s one of those terrible situations where the presence of violence prevents some of the economic opportunities from developing, and without the economic opportunities developing, it’s a stimulus to more violence.

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: That’s exactly it. That’s the - that’s the vicious circle. And we have to create the virtuous circle.

CHARLIE ROSE: Go to Lebanon then, finally. What is the United Nations doing now and what do you think are the prospects there?

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: I think in Lebanon, when I look at Lebanon today and Lebanon a year ago -- I mean, the force that we deployed in Lebanon; this was one of the fastest deployments in the history of the United Nations, maybe the fastest.

CHARLIE ROSE: How many troops went in how fast?

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: We have 12,000 now in Lebanon. In the summer -- we had 2,000 before, but 10,000 deployed very quickly there.

CHARLIE ROSE: And that over a process of .

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: Over - of a few, well, the final -- a few months, but in a matter of weeks we had already several additional thousand.

So that really changed the situation in a radical way, because suddenly in south Lebanon, there was a very powerful force combined with the Lebanese armed forces that had deployed all the way to the border with - with Israel. And so, there was a sense and there is still a sense that it’s very difficult now to have hostile activities, to have violence be initiated from the southern part of Lebanon where the forces deployed. So in that sense, there is a real I think success of peacekeeping there.

The real challenge that -- that is still with us is that in Lebanon, as in all the other places where we are deployed, we need to have a political process. We have the Lebanese army in south Lebanon, but the Lebanese army depends on the Lebanese government. The Lebanese government has been very courageous in asserting itself, but it’s still -- it’s a fragile government. And at the end of the day, the future of Lebanon very much depends on the political process in Beirut and the broader political process in the Middle East -- Lebanon, Syria, Israel, how is that going to play? That’s in a way -- they are factors which are not under the control of UNIFIL, of our force, but which will be decisive in making the difference between success and - and failure.

CHARLIE ROSE: I know this varies from place to place to place. And there are different kinds of peacekeeping, but generally what are the rules of engagement for you and peacekeepers?

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: They are based on the mandate. We have pretty robust rules of engagement when we have a robust resolution. In the Democratic Republic of Congo, for instance, we have used attack helicopters, we have conducted coordinated search operations. Very tough.

What we can do is when we’re tough, we can really control the spoilers, those people in the margins of a peace agreement who would want to sabotage it, who would want to hold the peace hostage to their minority interests, their small interest. What we cannot do, even with robust rules of engagement, is enforce a peace if the key players are not ready for peace. That would require a force much stronger than the kind of force that we can muster.

CHARLIE ROSE: Take Lebanon. Are the key players ready for peace?

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: I think the key players see the danger of going back to war. And so, they’re happy to have a robust force in Lebanon.

CHARLIE ROSE: But that could be .

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: That stops .

CHARLIE ROSE: . a commitment to status quo, not a commitment to the future.

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: That’s why I say that the force closes an option of quick resumption of hostilities through escalation after an incident. But the force in itself is not going to create peace between Lebanon and Israel. That requires political will in the capitals to really - I mean, move the process forward. And that in a way goes beyond Lebanon and Israel, it’s the whole Middle East issue.

CHARLIE ROSE: A central theme of what you say is that we desperately need the political will in each of the countries that are in crisis.

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: Absolutely. You see, I mean, I have more and more troops under my responsibility, and the more troops I have, the more I see that military force is an essential component of all those processes. But sometimes there’s over-reliance on military force. You need to fix the politics. If you - if you ignore the politics, military force itself cannot deliver the result.

CHARLIE ROSE: Some people make the argument, as they did in Iraq, as did General Abizaid and general -- made this part - made the argument that - that at the time, there shouldn`t be a surge or didn`t ask for additional troops, because they thought it would be an impediment, the presence of more troops. Not only because of occupation, but would be an impediment to the idea of Iraqis taking responsibility. If somebody else was there to maintain and to do the work of enforcement.

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: But I don’t know the details of the situation in Iraq, but it’s a kind of dilemma that we have in many of our peace operations. Sometimes it’s easier in a way to do the thing yourself.

CHARLIE ROSE: Right.

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: At the same time, you do want to empower the people that you`ve come to help. And that’s in a way the key dilemma of peacekeeping, is that you want to push. Sometimes you want to push hard. At the same time, you know that whatever you push will be sustained will succeed only if it’s owned by the people that you have come to help. And finding that balance between being pushy, really pushing hard, and at the same time being respectful of the people you`ve come to help, that’s - that’s in a way the most difficult.

CHARLIE ROSE: Difficult dilemma.

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: That’s the dilemma.

CHARLIE ROSE: Thank you so much.

JEAN-MARIE GUEHENNO: Thank you.

CHARLIE ROSE: Good to meet you.